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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. So we're talking with the Edward Dodge on

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast AM, and then we'll get to your

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Speaker 1: questions and comments coming up the bottom of this hour

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Speaker 1: and then open lines after that. In the chapter of

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Speaker 1: his new book, the chapter entitled Cannabis and the Great Mother,

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Speaker 1: you make a point that I think this is actually

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Speaker 1: a fairly cool connection, that cannabis is one of the

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Speaker 1: few plants with distinct male and female plants that must

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Speaker 1: fertilize one another, and that kind of that is kind

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Speaker 1: of now that you know, if we're going to make

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Speaker 1: a if we're going to draw this into a conversation

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Speaker 1: of a god and a goddess, the fact that there

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Speaker 1: are these distinct personalities, if you will, to marijuana, I

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Speaker 1: think that's something I didn't know, and that they they

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Speaker 1: are symbiotic although the female plant, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people would feed the feel the same way about goddesses,

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Speaker 1: that the female plant is the superior of the two.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we h that's why they breed seedless seedless marijuana nowadays

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Speaker 1: that they call sent amelia. So you need the male

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Speaker 1: and female, but it's only the female plant that you

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Speaker 1: get the drugs from. The male has effectively none, and

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Speaker 1: then you get the superior fibers as well from the

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Speaker 1: female plants. So and with modern day marijuana, they will

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Speaker 1: take out the male plants so there's no seeds and

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Speaker 1: they call that sens amelia. But they did the same

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Speaker 1: thing with hemp for centuries. George Washington talked about one

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Speaker 1: of his letters that he failed sure get the males

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Speaker 1: down before they went to seed. Funny, but that, you know,

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Speaker 1: So the idea that it's the female of the cannabis

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Speaker 1: that is the stronger. That again comes back to what

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Speaker 1: some people i'd say was the model for a lot

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Speaker 1: of temple worship, which is the use of um, something

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Speaker 1: of a psychedelic drug that would create a kind of

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Speaker 1: euphoria or a mind at least a kind of mind

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Speaker 1: opening experience, even if it's not a kin to something

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Speaker 1: like what we might think of as being Lsteve that

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Speaker 1: that without that one might not have had any experience

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Speaker 1: of the divine in a temple context, but with it,

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Speaker 1: everybody did well. I definitely think they were using intox

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Speaker 1: skins in the temples of the ancient world, and that

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Speaker 1: they had a pretty phillh apothecarrea of plant drugs, cannabis

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Speaker 1: being among them. And you know opium, ephedra, mr mandrake, bladana.

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Speaker 1: These are all the psychedelic mushrooms. These things were all

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Speaker 1: known and used in the ancient world. But it makes

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Speaker 1: cannabis unique is that it's not just a drug, it's

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Speaker 1: also a fiber. And so in these goddess traditions, weaving,

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Speaker 1: sacred weaving was a primary activity of that women did

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Speaker 1: and that they did in the goddess temples, and so

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Speaker 1: cannabis bridges that gap. And then it's also a midwifery

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Speaker 1: medicine for women that they can take as uh to

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Speaker 1: ease contractions um and as nephrodigiac and for menstrual medicine.

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Speaker 1: So it's all these things. It wrapped around for h

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Speaker 1: for these women led religions. Yeah, and in these uh,

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Speaker 1: these different concoctions of mixing wine with cannabis um these yeah,

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Speaker 1: they called it strong drink or mystery potions. And this

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Speaker 1: is how they mixed up all sorts of drug cocktails

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Speaker 1: in wine and beer, going back deep into the Neolithic. Um.

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Speaker 1: This is again something that that women did, and that

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Speaker 1: was pretty well documented. Um. There's a funny line in

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Speaker 1: uh the law codes of Hammurabi where the that the

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Speaker 1: the the Kadesha pricesses, the sanctified women were not allowed

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Speaker 1: to enter into a tavern or or ever own a tavern.

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Speaker 1: Much they couldn't enter it or own one because of

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Speaker 1: their mastery of mystery positions. They were never allowed to

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Speaker 1: go near the taverns uh and uh and also Hashish,

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Speaker 1: as we understand it, um had a pretty ancient application

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Speaker 1: as well. Yeah. They use it as incense as well.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's one place where you see it in

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Speaker 1: the Bible. Um. Again, it would be mixed with all

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Speaker 1: the stuff. It's not that it's Hashie's alone, but that

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Speaker 1: it is a common ingredient mixed with murr. It shows

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Speaker 1: up listed next to murr and a few of the

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Speaker 1: references in the Bible, and they were they were mixed together.

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Speaker 1: They are used as incense together, they're used in drinks together. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the but Murr is one of those um things

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Speaker 1: obviously that has a distinct connection to the Christmas story. Um.

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Speaker 1: That the that the you know, the as often referred

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Speaker 1: to as the Three Wise men. But I mean that's

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Speaker 1: a misnomber in some respects. But that they that they

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Speaker 1: brought murr um, So do you see a different significance

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Speaker 1: in the fact that they brought murr to the to

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Speaker 1: marry to honor the baby Jesus right, they brought gold,

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Speaker 1: frank contense and mirrors. So frank contense and mirr. But

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Speaker 1: we're both intense ingredients, and they were valuable items in

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Speaker 1: the spice trade. Um. That hashish would have been, you know, similarly,

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Speaker 1: was a valuable item in the spice trade. That was

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Speaker 1: just you know, part of the backdrop of the ancientear East.

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Speaker 1: So you don't have any suspicion that that mirror that

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Speaker 1: was brought was that was part of a concoction as

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Speaker 1: you referred to it, h something else that might have

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Speaker 1: gotten mixed in. I make a lot of claims about

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Speaker 1: where I see cannabis all over the place, so I

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Speaker 1: don't want to I don't want to go out on

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Speaker 1: too many limbs. I don't. I don't make a claim

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Speaker 1: about that specific story. UM. I make claims about other

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Speaker 1: stories though. Uh. For example, Oh well, I mean I

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Speaker 1: see cannabis all over the place with Moses specifically, Um,

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Speaker 1: the burning bush, the menorah, that the the God coming

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Speaker 1: down and a cloud of smoke into the tent of

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Speaker 1: the meeting. Um. I mean I kind of see him

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Speaker 1: as like, uh, you know, a desert shaman, a Rastafarian

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Speaker 1: type figure. Um, And that those in those traditions, there's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of symbols with Moses. They get thrown out

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Speaker 1: later on. You know, he's using a serpent staff. He

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Speaker 1: makes serpents on a pole that then later gets thrown

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Speaker 1: out in the temple reforms. So, um, there's a few

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Speaker 1: different things that the shot nets is the linen and

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Speaker 1: wool mixed together. Moses makes a specific instruction to mix

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Speaker 1: the linen and wool together to make the tent of

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Speaker 1: the tabernacle ten of the meeting. And then but then

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Speaker 1: later on the deuteronomous reformers say, don't mix linen and

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Speaker 1: wool together. So I kind of put cannabis in that

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Speaker 1: in that vein that it was something that Moses was

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Speaker 1: doing at you know, in twelve hundred BC or whatever

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Speaker 1: that six hundred years later are being thrown out in

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Speaker 1: ten purforms. There is a some dispute. Various well known

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Speaker 1: authors have suggested that in fact, the drink that Jesus

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Speaker 1: was offered during the course of the crucifixion. What would

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Speaker 1: have been one that was that strong drink you mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: and that it wasn't a bitter drink to taunt him,

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Speaker 1: but from a sympathetic centurion, that it might have been

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Speaker 1: a pain reliever, might have been something which might I

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Speaker 1: have a more even more elaborate theory. You haven't read

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Speaker 1: that I have not go ahead. So I picked this

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Speaker 1: up from Chris Bennett, who is I got to give

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Speaker 1: it a shout out to Chris Bennett, who's that the

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Speaker 1: main marijuana and the ancient world researcher who I picked

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Speaker 1: up most of this, most of my baseline information I

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Speaker 1: picked up from him and then and then I ran

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Speaker 1: with it. So there's a theory that Jesus basically faked

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Speaker 1: his death using a strong drink to um to feign death.

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Speaker 1: And then he had he had allies, mainly the women

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Speaker 1: Mary Magdalene and the other women, then Josepharamithia and who

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Speaker 1: had the tomb, and the others they helped. They basically

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Speaker 1: they gave him this strong drink while he was up

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Speaker 1: on the cross, he hadn't been there very long, and

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Speaker 1: that it makes him look like he's dead, and then

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Speaker 1: they're able to pull him down before he was dead

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Speaker 1: and then nurse him up and patch his wounds and

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Speaker 1: let him sleep for two days. And I argue, Chris, Chris,

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Speaker 1: Chris made the point before me that, um, that that

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Speaker 1: cannabis would do the trick. You could you could make

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Speaker 1: a tincture like that with cannabis. I know people who

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Speaker 1: have done it in the modern day. That will knock

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Speaker 1: you out and make you look like you're dead. Catalepsy

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Speaker 1: is one of the primary um well documented in the

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Speaker 1: modern medical literature and ancient literature. Catalepsy is is that

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Speaker 1: one of the main effects cannabis will do in very

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Speaker 1: strong doses. That that is, you know, um, your limbs

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Speaker 1: are stiff and waxing, and you you know, you kind

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Speaker 1: of look like a corpse. And that that's pretty well

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Speaker 1: documented for hundreds of years. Uh. That's highly contested obviously

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Speaker 1: by not and not necessarily even by mainstream theologians. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's not just a matter of people maintaining an orthodoxy.

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Speaker 1: There is a it's a it's a fun discussion, it's

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Speaker 1: a um. You know, this idea of the passover plot

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Speaker 1: has it been referred to in the past. It came

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Speaker 1: from it came from that book. Yeah, but that that's

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of debate, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: a lot of debate about it. I'm not gonna like,

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Speaker 1: it's not a hill I want to die on. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to go on tour, you know, making this case. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it's a fun one. It's I'd rather make it

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Speaker 1: a discussion about you know, you know, the medical efficacy

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Speaker 1: of cannabis and the fact that uh, super strong dose

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Speaker 1: of cannabis do not kill. The death rate is zero ten.

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Speaker 1: There's no death, no disease, and no matter. And you

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Speaker 1: can make a tinctuous so strong that it will knock

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Speaker 1: you out for two days. I mean, I've never done it,

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Speaker 1: but I've heard people do it, and your friends will

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Speaker 1: think you're dead right. But don't get me wrong on

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Speaker 1: the point about the passover plot. It's not that I'm

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Speaker 1: just tossing that out. What I'm saying is, before you

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Speaker 1: get there, before you even have to get to a

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Speaker 1: broader discussion about Joseph Armothea. And then they take Jesus

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Speaker 1: and he goes into Europe and becomes the Divine Right

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Speaker 1: of kings and all of that that comes as a

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Speaker 1: result before you even get there. Just even that idea

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Speaker 1: that a sympathetic guard somebody there that was you know,

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Speaker 1: their job was to stand underneath that and to hasten

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Speaker 1: the death of Jesus before sundown. That that was something

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Speaker 1: they did to be nice, was something which even just

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Speaker 1: even that one little sliver sort of defies tradition, which

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Speaker 1: too many which a lot of you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of reason to suspect that. The biblical evidence says,

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Speaker 1: you know, they were casting lots for his tunic, and

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Speaker 1: they were doing all this other stuff, that they were

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Speaker 1: all there just to mock him. But maybe one person

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Speaker 1: kind of essentially was trying to slip him a mickey

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Speaker 1: just as slow as breathing down, just so that he

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Speaker 1: would die. And it was a it was a mercy killing,

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Speaker 1: if you will, or or even just he was gonna

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Speaker 1: die up on the cross. But how much pain he

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Speaker 1: had to experience before sundown, Well that was you know,

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Speaker 1: that that that could be determined to buy something like this, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: three of the gospels have that detail of him being

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Speaker 1: given you know, some undetermined uh kind of drink while

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Speaker 1: he's you know just before he succumbs on the cross.

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Speaker 1: Three of the gospels have that detail, and they call

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Speaker 1: it sour wine or sour vinegar. It's not really right,

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Speaker 1: obviously unclear what it is, right, but that may be

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Speaker 1: the sour factor, as some people describe it. That tincture

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Speaker 1: made it turned from something which would have been a

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Speaker 1: pleasant taste into an unpleasant taste, but it would have

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Speaker 1: been more effective. And now what about you with in

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Speaker 1: terms of the how long in your research anyway, what

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Speaker 1: do you see as indicators of how long the use

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Speaker 1: of a cannabis like product continued into either the Late

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Speaker 1: Temple period or into early Christianity. I think that, I

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Speaker 1: mean cannabis has simply been around forever. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: what I kind of find interesting with the history is

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Speaker 1: that it's once established in an area, it never goes away.

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Speaker 1: So it's just part of the backdrop of the ancient

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Speaker 1: Near East and you can always find someone's using it.

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Speaker 1: And but not really in Europe because in Europe it's

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Speaker 1: all hemp, it's not the drug type. So in the

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Speaker 1: drug types you get in the Middle East and South India, Egypt,

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Speaker 1: and then in Europe, in China you're getting into fiber types. So, Um,

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Speaker 1: where you find the cannabis is in the stuff where

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Speaker 1: the church that they don't like, you know, in the

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Speaker 1: in the occult or among the witches, all the stuff

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Speaker 1: where the church says that the Orthodox Church says it's bad.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of where you'll find the cannabis. Um. But

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Speaker 1: there are mystics and stuff and occultists in the Middle

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Speaker 1: Ages that that knew about it France. While Rabelais knew

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Speaker 1: about it in the Middle Ages. He writes about it extensively,

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Speaker 1: but all in code because he would be executed. So

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Speaker 1: Gargantua and Pantagrul is a famous French book from the

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Speaker 1: series of books from the fifteen hundreds. I think Um

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Speaker 1: and Rabelais is, you know, it's it's very satirical, and

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Speaker 1: it's very very funny and very body and he's making

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Speaker 1: fun of everybody, the church and the aristocrats. And this

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Speaker 1: is an era where people are getting executed burn of

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Speaker 1: the stake for heresy. And so he writes extensively about cannabis,

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Speaker 1: calls the King of the Plants, but it's all in code.

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Speaker 1: He calls it Pantagrul. He names his chief character after

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Speaker 1: the plant so there was it was around. People knew

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Speaker 1: about it and learned people knew about it. Um. But

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Speaker 1: the Orthodox Church never like plant drugs of any type.

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Speaker 1: It's all shamanism and um, you know witchcraft. You know,

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Speaker 1: the Church has always been mistrustworth of plant drugs. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that includes mushrooms. Um. We were talking

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Speaker 1: about the mushrooms that were recently some there's research that

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Speaker 1: indicates perhaps they're growing on mars um so psilocybin being

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Speaker 1: the that's the psychedelic mushroom. Um. Do you what do

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Speaker 1: you see of that mentioned in your wealth? So, I

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Speaker 1: mean they're the it's more to understand that they're in

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Speaker 1: the immediate first century after Jesus. Now you've got very

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Speaker 1: disparate groups following Jesus that are that are not aligned

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Speaker 1: at all. So the Gnostics and the followers of Paul In,

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Speaker 1: the original disciples who remained in Jerusalem as Jews, they

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Speaker 1: had very different attitudes. Um. So it's all quite specuative

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Speaker 1: when you're talking with the Gnostics, since we don't really

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Speaker 1: have much detail to like con from anything. But I'm

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Speaker 1: perfectly open to the idea that they were had one

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Speaker 1: foot and the mystery traditions and that at least some

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Speaker 1: of the gnostics who are indulging in psychedelics and that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. I mean, people see your eyes about

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Speaker 1: a psychedelic eucharist. I mean, I'm not making that argument,

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Speaker 1: but some people make that argument. Yeah, there is a

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Speaker 1: I mean, the whole idea of eucharis is kind of

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Speaker 1: trippy in the sense that it isn't I mean, for

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Speaker 1: some traditions, it isn't just a breaking of bread and

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Speaker 1: a sharing of a common meal or a symbolic representation

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Speaker 1: of that event as it happened in the upper room,

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Speaker 1: but rather, and this is the part that I often

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Speaker 1: I find like super mystical, but I love it, is

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Speaker 1: that this is an event that is taking place in

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Speaker 1: the past and the present and the future. That communion

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Speaker 1: is multi dimensional and not limited to just the time

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Speaker 1: and space that one is in. And I thought, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's like I love that. I just think and I

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Speaker 1: don't think necessarily people think about it that way or

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Speaker 1: not everybody does. But in that sense, now you've got

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Speaker 1: something that sounds like it could come as a result

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Speaker 1: of people who are experimenting with something that they, you know,

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Speaker 1: saw as being more than just the evidence of what

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Speaker 1: the world was around them. Yeah, I mean, whatever's going

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Speaker 1: on with the Ucarus, it's not you know, it's certainly

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Speaker 1: not a Jewish tradition to say, you know, eat my

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Speaker 1: flesh and drink my blood. Wherever he got that, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't it wasn't from the Jews. So and and there's Jesus.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to separate, you know what. You know, what,

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Speaker 1: what do we think the real Jesus said from what

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Speaker 1: was you know, clearly being mythologized later on. Um. So

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Speaker 1: it's it's uh, it's all over to interpretation. That's what

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Speaker 1: makes it so much fun. Listen to more Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast AM every weeknight at one a m. Eastern and

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Speaker 1: go to Coast to Coast am dot com for more