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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. So many times we

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Speaker 1: have a situation in our lives where we say this

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Speaker 1: is not fair and we don't know how to fight it.

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Speaker 1: And oftentimes we have people come on the podcast and

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Speaker 1: they're like, you need to get a legal organization involved,

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Speaker 1: or get an attorney and go fight, and that seems

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Speaker 1: sometimes daunting and overwhelming and expensive. And I wanted to

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Speaker 1: bring a story to you today about why it's important

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Speaker 1: to make sure you do fight, because right now, I

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Speaker 1: think in this country we are really fighting for our

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Speaker 1: religious liberties. Oftentimes, especially as Christians, I think we are

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Speaker 1: pushed to the side, and our faith is pushed to

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Speaker 1: the side, or our faith is demonized. And I heard

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Speaker 1: the story the other day and I was like, this

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Speaker 1: is a really great story. So I wanted to bring

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Speaker 1: an attorney on here. Her name is Kayla Toni. She

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Speaker 1: is counsel with First Liberty Institute, a nonprofit legal organization

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Speaker 1: where she focuses on religious liberty and the First Amendment

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Speaker 1: rights for clients of all faiths, but also in the

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Speaker 1: education context. So Kayla, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: me today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: I saw so I saw on the news this case

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Speaker 1: of a young woman in she had explained it a

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Speaker 1: little bit. She had a parking space at school and

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Speaker 1: the kids were allowed to decorate the parking space, and

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Speaker 1: her designs were rejected by the school.

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Speaker 2: Yes, actually twice, and this was simply because she included

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Speaker 2: a Bible versus reference. So we represent Sabrina Stephens. She's

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Speaker 2: a arriving senior at Grand Island High School in upstate

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Speaker 2: New York, and she's very active at her school. She

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Speaker 2: runs the Bible Club, and all she wanted to do

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Speaker 2: was put a simple Bible verse on her parking space.

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Speaker 2: The way the program worked is you pay fifty dollars

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Speaker 2: and you can decorate it with any kind of artwork

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Speaker 2: you want, as long as it's not religious. And so

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Speaker 2: her first design had John fourteen six on it and

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Speaker 2: that was rejected. Her second design had Jeremiah twenty nine

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Speaker 2: to eleven on it, and that wasn't good enough either,

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Speaker 2: even though that's everyone's favorite graduation verse. And the only

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Speaker 2: design they would approve was one that didn't have any

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Speaker 2: religious imagery. So that's when she reached out to us

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Speaker 2: for celebrity.

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Speaker 1: What was what was the real this is a public school,

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming yes. And what was their reason that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you could have anything but religion?

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Speaker 2: Why they were worried that someone might be offended. That

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Speaker 2: was really the only rationale we could get from them.

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Speaker 2: It didn't make a lot of sense, and it certainly

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Speaker 2: was not in line with the First Amendment.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting to me that you can decorate it with

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Speaker 1: anything you want, but they're afraid that it might be

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Speaker 1: offensive if you decorate it with something of faith based,

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Speaker 1: because you would think there could be a lot of

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Speaker 1: offensive decorations. So why would the school not just say

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Speaker 1: you can't decorate parking spaces at all if they were

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Speaker 1: afraid that someone might be offended. It seems like it

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Speaker 1: was pretty targeted to Christianity.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And certainly, as you said, with high school students,

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Speaker 2: they might come up with something inappropriate or vulgar, and

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Speaker 2: the school could absolutely police that already. But the fact

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Speaker 2: that they would turn away and otherwise, you know, beautiful,

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Speaker 2: upbeat artwork design just because it referenced God or because

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Speaker 2: it included a religious reference. No.

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Speaker 1: We talk about this a lot about what's happening in

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Speaker 1: the country when it comes to people, especially with education.

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Speaker 1: It seems like parents are under attack. Students are under attack.

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Speaker 1: If you wear a T shirt, if you have a

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Speaker 1: political reference or religious reference that the school doesn't like,

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Speaker 1: it's very easy for them to come after you. There's

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Speaker 1: also been cases where the school has done something that

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Speaker 1: parents haven't liked and they don't seem to have a recourse.

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Speaker 1: What when you went to the school and you, first

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Speaker 1: of all, how did you get connected with the student?

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Speaker 2: Rina's mom reached out to us through our website. So

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Speaker 2: at first Liberty dot org there's a page where you

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Speaker 2: can request legal help, and we received thousands of these

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Speaker 2: every year, and we're obviously not able to help everyone.

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Speaker 2: Not everyone has a clear religious freedom issue who reaches

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Speaker 2: out to us? But Sabrina's mom really did, and so

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Speaker 2: we got in touch with her right away. We did

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Speaker 2: a call with Sabrina and her mom, and we were

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Speaker 2: just very impressed by how committed she was, that she

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Speaker 2: really wanted her parking space to express her faith because

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Speaker 2: that's the most important thing in her life. That was

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Speaker 2: inspiring to us, and that really made us want to

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Speaker 2: step up and fight. And we also knew that her

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Speaker 2: story could impact a lot of other schools, and it

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Speaker 2: already has since her win, we've seen impact in other

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Speaker 2: places as well.

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Speaker 1: That's actually, that's what I wanted to get to is

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Speaker 1: the importance of fighting back when you see something that

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Speaker 1: is wrong like this. And like I said, I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are afraid because it's going to

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Speaker 1: be expensive and what if they don't win? But you

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Speaker 1: said you saw a clear case here. What were the

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Speaker 1: next steps when you talked to the school? Did you

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Speaker 1: have to go into court? Did you have to or

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Speaker 1: did they just say you know what, you're right? How

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Speaker 1: did it work?

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Speaker 2: We sent a demand letter to the school explaining why

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Speaker 2: their actions violated the First Amendment. We talked about how

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Speaker 2: Sabrina's speech had double protection. She's got the free speech clause,

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Speaker 2: which protects her ability to say a message in her artwork,

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Speaker 2: and the Supreme Court is held that artwork counts as

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Speaker 2: speech certainly when it's coming from a student. And then

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Speaker 2: also her free exercise. It's an important part of her

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Speaker 2: faith to be able to share her faith with others.

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Speaker 2: She does that through her Bible club, and she wants

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Speaker 2: to do that through her parking space. And so those

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Speaker 2: double protections are really the legal hook that Sabrina has

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Speaker 2: and so after we explain that to the school in

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Speaker 2: our letter, and we also sent a press release, and

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Speaker 2: obviously Sabrina told her story on the local news, which

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Speaker 2: I think made a significant impact as well. The school

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Speaker 2: quickly changed course and they agreed that not only could

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Speaker 2: she come and paint her parking space after the official

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Speaker 2: deadline had passed, but she could use her original design,

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Speaker 2: which said God is Love and wrote out Jesus is

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Speaker 2: the Way, the Truth and the Life and John fourteen six.

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Speaker 2: And so she was able to do that last weekend.

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Speaker 2: She sent us the pictures and it just came out beautifully.

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Speaker 2: She added across. She just was really able to express

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Speaker 2: her faith fully, and that's so exciting.

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Speaker 1: That is very neat. I think it's interesting that the

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Speaker 1: school was essentially it sounded like there was some discussion

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Speaker 1: of well, you can't have anything religious on school property,

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Speaker 1: and there was a confusion with the school teaching the

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Speaker 1: kids like this is a this is a public school,

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Speaker 1: so you can't have religion. Is that true? Was there

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Speaker 1: some push back on it?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, Initially what they told Sabrina before we got

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Speaker 2: involved was that it was a school sponsored activity. So

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Speaker 2: basically the First Amendment didn't apply, and that's just not correct.

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Speaker 2: This seems like the clearest instance of student speech that

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Speaker 2: I could think of, because she paid for at the space,

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Speaker 2: and she's physically painting it herself, and she drew the design.

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Speaker 2: So it's not like you have a teacher or up

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Speaker 2: there preaching or forcing conversions or something like that. This

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Speaker 2: is very much in the student speech world. But that

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Speaker 2: is something we've seen. School districts just seem to want

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Speaker 2: to remove religion, remove all references to religion, and then

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Speaker 2: if that doesn't work, they sort of recast everything as

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Speaker 2: school speech instead of student speech, and that's just not right,

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Speaker 2: and we were happy to explain that to them.

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Speaker 1: I think there is some confusion across the board, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying just schools, but I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of Americans believe that the phrase separation of Church and

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Speaker 1: State means that you cannot have any public institution reference

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Speaker 1: any religion whatsoever. And that seems to be something that

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Speaker 1: they're kind of pushing down through the next generation and

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Speaker 1: saying there is actually in the Constitution a phrase it

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Speaker 1: says separation of church and State. There's not, and that

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Speaker 1: misinformation is going to our kids. It's funny to me

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Speaker 1: because the people who are constantly fighting to protect the

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Speaker 1: misofmain and not having any misinformation really seemed to not

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Speaker 1: be educated on this one critical piece, this critical item

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Speaker 1: that your religious liberty is there for you and it's

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Speaker 1: meant to be protected.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, I'm so glad you brought that up, because,

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Speaker 2: like you said, separation of church and state is not

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Speaker 2: in the constitution. What is in the Constitution right there

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Speaker 2: in our first Amendment, is that free exercise of religion

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Speaker 2: is protected, and so is free speech. And the phrase

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Speaker 2: separation of church and state actually comes from a letter

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Speaker 2: that Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of Baptists who

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Speaker 2: were afraid that they were going to lose their heads

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Speaker 2: because of their faith, because that was something that had

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Speaker 2: happened in the Old World where they had emigrated from.

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Speaker 2: And he assured them that there would be a separation,

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Speaker 2: but the purpose of it was to protect the church

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Speaker 2: and to protect especially religious minorities who were afraid of

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Speaker 2: government persecution. And he said that won't happen because the

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Speaker 2: government is not allowed to encroach on your freedom. So

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Speaker 2: that's the backstory to that phrase. But I think you're

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Speaker 2: absolutely right that there is a lot of information going on,

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Speaker 2: and so a lot of what we try to do

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Speaker 2: at First Librity is we try to educate on these issues,

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Speaker 2: and if we need to educate the educators, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're happy to do that to explain to school districts

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Speaker 2: that actually, the law protects religious speech and religious diversity

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Speaker 2: is a strength of our country and that's something that

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Speaker 2: the next generation needs to know. Think.

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Speaker 1: I think also so proud of the mom in this

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Speaker 1: situation because so often as parents were going through something,

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Speaker 1: we have something like this come and we take our

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Speaker 1: kid aside and we say, okay, well what are we

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Speaker 1: learning from this? And we don't fight back because it

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Speaker 1: can be really hard to fight back, especially going on

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Speaker 1: the local news, and especially with all the turmoil we've

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Speaker 1: seen with these situations of parents going to school board meetings.

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Speaker 1: I like this story because it doesn't seem like there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of anger involved, and there isn't. Because Sabrina

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Speaker 1: is a religious person and she's she seems to be

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Speaker 1: very filled with joy. It was this isn't right, Let's

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Speaker 1: have a discussion. That's not what we hear every day.

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Speaker 2: That's right. I'm so glad Sabrina was brave enough to

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Speaker 2: stand up, and it's very intimidating, especially as a high

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Speaker 2: school student. You know, peer pressure is a real influence.

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Speaker 2: But she was not concerned about that. She just wanted

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Speaker 2: to do what was right. And I think the ripple

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Speaker 2: effect of her courage is that other students now are

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Speaker 2: braver and they're more willing to paint their own parking spaces.

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Speaker 2: And we actually heard from some students in Georgia just

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Speaker 2: last week. They had reached out to us about a

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Speaker 2: similar issue when they heard about Sabrina's story, and their

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Speaker 2: school changed their policies. So now they're allowed to go

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Speaker 2: back to their parking spaces and add the religious imagery

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Speaker 2: that they wanted to add, which their school had initially

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Speaker 2: told them they couldn't have. So I thought that was

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Speaker 2: a really special yeah, just a really special impact of

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Speaker 2: you know, Sabrina's courage up in New York is benefiting

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Speaker 2: some students down in Georgia who now they're able to

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Speaker 2: express their faith.

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Speaker 1: To Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next

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Speaker 1: on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. When I heard this, I

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Speaker 1: was like, I have to talk about this because I

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Speaker 1: think we have so many parents and grandparents that listen

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Speaker 1: to this podcast, and it's one thing to educate the kids,

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Speaker 1: but I think even our generation needs to be hearing

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't just accept that you're being pushed to the side.

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Speaker 1: These are your rights. Your rights are very serious, and

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Speaker 1: it gives parents and grandparents the chance to say, when

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Speaker 1: we have this happen to us, we shouldn't We don't

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Speaker 1: have to get angry. We don't have to go to

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Speaker 1: jump on social media and immediately yell and scream about

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Speaker 1: what's happening. Go have that conversation because oftentimes you can

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Speaker 1: change something. And that's something that we've had, even when

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Speaker 1: we've had kids that have been hurt or emotionally hurt

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Speaker 1: by a school, the importance of knowing that there are

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Speaker 1: tools to fight back. And that's so I want you

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about your organizations and maybe

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Speaker 1: a few of the other cases that you've been successful

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Speaker 1: and so parents know there is another opportunity to have

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Speaker 1: another path.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely so. I work at First Liberty Institute. We

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Speaker 2: are a nonprofit nationwide law firm and we represent clients

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Speaker 2: of all faiths, which we love to do, but we

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Speaker 2: are a Christian ministry, so our team has that shared understanding,

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Speaker 2: which is also really helpful. And we represent our clients

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Speaker 2: for free, and the only way we're able to do

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Speaker 2: that is that we are supported by really generous donors

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Speaker 2: from all across the US, and so there's more information

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Speaker 2: on our website at first Liberty dot org. There's a

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Speaker 2: place where folks can give and there's also a place where,

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Speaker 2: as I mentioned, you can request legal help. And that's

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Speaker 2: how Sabrina's family got in touch with us. So certainly,

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Speaker 2: if listeners have a family member who's maybe going through

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Speaker 2: a religious freedom issue, please do feel free to reach

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Speaker 2: out to us, because that's how we meet a lot

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Speaker 2: of our clients. And one other thing I'll mention, we

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Speaker 2: just recently put together a very up to date toolkit

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Speaker 2: that's designed for students to know their rights in public schools.

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Speaker 2: So I'm happy to share a link with you if

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Speaker 2: that would be helpful to send out to listeners. It's

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Speaker 2: a lot of legal precedents that are sort of explained,

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Speaker 2: and we tried to do it in you know, understandable terms,

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Speaker 2: so you don't have to wait through a lot of legalies.

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Speaker 2: But there's a lot of good information in there and

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Speaker 2: we hope that that really equips students and parents to

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Speaker 2: know their rights and to know you are free to

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Speaker 2: speak about your faith. You're free to have a Christian

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Speaker 2: club at school. Your club has to be treated just

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Speaker 2: the same as every other club. That parents are able

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Speaker 2: to view the curriculum that their children are learning. They're

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Speaker 2: able to opt out if that curriculum interferes with their faith.

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Speaker 2: There's really a lot more rights that people have that again,

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Speaker 2: they don't always know, and a lot of times the

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Speaker 2: school district will tell you an incorrect version of your

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Speaker 2: rights based on this outdated idea that you know, church

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Speaker 2: and state have to be completely separate, when actually there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of space for religious expression as long as

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Speaker 2: it's voluntary and as long as it's coming from students.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's so much freedom that we have in

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Speaker 2: our public schools today.

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Speaker 1: I know, we had a story a while back of

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Speaker 1: a school that allowed social clubs, and they had multiple

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Speaker 1: social clubs, and they even had a Church of Satan club,

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Speaker 1: but they said that there couldn't be a Christian club

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Speaker 1: because that was religious, and the parents fought back on that,

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Speaker 1: and the school ultimately had to give in and say, Okay, actually,

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Speaker 1: I guess that that is the correct answer you can

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Speaker 1: have one of these. Is that the type of case

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Speaker 1: you generally see, or what are some of the other

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Speaker 1: issues that you've experienced.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we've definitely had some student club cases. Just last year,

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Speaker 2: we represented a fifth grader in Seattle who wanted to

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Speaker 2: start an interfaith prayer club. It wasn't even focused on

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Speaker 2: one faith, it was inter faith, and the school said, no,

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Speaker 2: absolutely not. But of course they had approved a pride

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Speaker 2: club just a few weeks earlier, and so there again

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Speaker 2: we threatened to sue. We ended up not having to

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Speaker 2: litigate because the school did agree to allow the prayer clubs,

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Speaker 2: so that was a great win for that student. And

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Speaker 2: we also work on parental rights. So right now we

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Speaker 2: have a case in California where some fifth graders were

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Speaker 2: forced to teach kindergarteners about changing genders. And the fifth

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Speaker 2: graders were not comfortable with this because they were Christians.

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Speaker 2: And so when the parents reached out and asked, you know,

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Speaker 2: to be notified in the future and maybe opt out

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Speaker 2: if their child was going to be exposed to this,

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Speaker 2: the school said absolutely not. And so we are still

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Speaker 2: finding that case in California. The good news is that

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court this summer, which loves in a similar

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Speaker 2: case that parents do have their rights their children of

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Speaker 2: any teaching that interferes with their faith. So that's another

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Speaker 2: thing parents should know, especially going into the school year.

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Speaker 2: You should ask to review the curriculum that your kid

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Speaker 2: will be exposed to, and then you should be able

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Speaker 2: to talk to and if there's any pushback of this,

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Speaker 2: please do reach out to us for celebrity, because we

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Speaker 2: very much to know their rights and to be able

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Speaker 2: to just talk if the materials in us in that

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Speaker 2: it aligns with their faith.

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Speaker 1: Did you just say that older kids were being told

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Speaker 1: they had to go talk to younger kids about the

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Speaker 1: fact that they could change their gender.

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Speaker 2: Yes. It was a buddy mentoring program between fifth graders

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Speaker 2: and kindergarteners and they met every single week and they

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Speaker 2: would do activities together and it was just a great

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Speaker 2: sort of mentoring relationship. But then the last month of school,

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Speaker 2: the teachers introduced this book called My Shadow Is Pink,

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Speaker 2: which is essentially a little boy deciding he wants to

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Speaker 2: become a little girl, and that's what the fifth graders

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Speaker 2: had to teach to the kindergarten. So it was very disturbing.

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Speaker 1: There's so much that actually happens in school. I had

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Speaker 1: completely forgotten this until the other day. There's so much

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Speaker 1: that happens in your school that you really have to

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Speaker 1: be on top of what's going on and go to

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Speaker 1: every parent teacher conference and know what's happening, because I

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Speaker 1: think that there's a lot of stuff that naturally happens

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Speaker 1: in the school that they don't necessarily reach out and

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Speaker 1: tell parents about, and maybe because they're not thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: Like my daughter this was It's so funny because I

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Speaker 1: had no idea this was happening, and it's not like

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Speaker 1: something that I'm angry about. But this is just an

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Speaker 1: example of when you don't know what's happening at your school.

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Speaker 1: So there was a little boy in her class who

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Speaker 1: was struggling with reading. She was not struggling with reading,

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Speaker 1: but he had to leave class every day and they

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Speaker 1: would have him and like five other kids meet and

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Speaker 1: they would play games instead of reading. They didn't have

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Speaker 1: a I don't know if there was a reading specialist there,

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Speaker 1: but they would play board games during this time. I

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Speaker 1: don't really understand exactly what was happening, but at the

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Speaker 1: last parent teacher conference, they were like, Oh, your daughter

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Speaker 1: is so sweet. You know, she's the friend that so

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Speaker 1: and so picks every day to go to this special

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Speaker 1: classroom with him and they play these board games and

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Speaker 1: she's so sweet with him. And I was like, what

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Speaker 1: are you talking about? Then I come home and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: are you missing reading time at school? And she was like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm the choice because you know, so and so gets

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Speaker 1: to choose somebody every day to go with him and

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Speaker 1: he always wants me to go. And it's like, that's

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Speaker 1: very sweet, but you are missing critical time in class.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's something we don't think about. We

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Speaker 1: as parents have historically trusted the schools and you put

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Speaker 1: your kids in there, and it's something you really have

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Speaker 1: to talk to your kids about every day. What's happening

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Speaker 1: how a school? Are you being pulled out of classes?

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Speaker 1: You don't think about it, but it is very critical

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Speaker 1: that you know, and then you have an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: either go to the school or if it gets to

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Speaker 1: the point where they need to, they can come to you.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Absolutely, I think that's such great advice for parents.

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Speaker 2: I would say, yeah, never assume that everything going on

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Speaker 2: is in your kids messengers or aligning with your faith,

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Speaker 2: and I think taking the time to go to the

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Speaker 2: meetings and meet the teachers and get to know and

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Speaker 2: build those relationships and to really be involved is really awesome.

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Speaker 2: And that's where you know, I love working with parents

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Speaker 2: and students. I think there's so much space for Christians

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Speaker 2: and for people of all faiths in our public schools.

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Speaker 2: But we have to speak up about our rights. We

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Speaker 2: have to know our rights and we have to advocate

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Speaker 2: for them, and at First Liberty we're very happy to

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Speaker 2: help folks do that. Well.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate what you did here. I'm so glad that

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Speaker 1: we got to talk about it because I think it's

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Speaker 1: an important subject for people to know. So give us

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Speaker 1: the website one more time at First Liberty so in

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Speaker 1: case people need to go check it out and get

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Speaker 1: some help for themselves.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, it's just first Liberty dot org.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Kayla Tony. I appreciate you coming

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Speaker 1: on the podcast today. Thank you for having me absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and thank you all for joining us on the Tutor

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Speaker 1: Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others, go to tutordisonpodcast

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Speaker 1: dot com, or you can head over to the iHeartRadio

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Speaker 1: app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, and

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Speaker 1: you can watch the full video on Rumble or YouTube

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Speaker 1: at tutor Dixon and join us next time on the

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Speaker 1: Tutor Dixon podcast. Have a blessed day.