WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 10 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.800 Here's to the great American settlers. The millions of you 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:07.360 have settled for unsatisfying jobs because they pay the bills. 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:10.440 Of course, there is something else you could do. If 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:14.520 you've got something to say. Startup podcast with Spreaker from 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.160 my Heart and unleash your creative freedom. Maybe even earn 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:20.919 enough money to one day tell your old bus hey, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:26.560 I'm no settler, I'm an explorer. Spreaker dot com, spr 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:31.600 e a K E r U salon over. Today from 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.720 Cavalry Audio comes the new true crime podcast, The Shadow Girls. 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:38.600 I grew up near the banks of the Green River 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:41.760 and in the shadow of the killer that bears its name. 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.720 Prosecutors described him as a serial killer survet. But this 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.560 podcast isn't only about tracking down the killer. It's about 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.800 the victims. We stayed in the woods. He always liked 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.520 to go into woods. Listen to The Shadow Girls on 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:58.960 the I Heart Radio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:03.160 you get your podcast us What Girls in the Forest, 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:08.400 Our imagination and our family bonds. The forest is closer 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.319 than you think. Find a forest near you and discover 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:13.880 the fourth dot Org brought to you by the United 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.920 States Fourth Service and the ad council. Hey, everybody, Robert 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:19.920 Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.480 is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.200 that just happened is here in one convenient and with 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.440 somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.000 a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:34.959 to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:37.080 nothing new here for you, but you can make your 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:54.400 own decisions. Whats they sing my books? Your grandmother, all 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:59.080 of your grandmother's wow Garrison, my grandmother's dad, so that 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:03.240 there's all facebooking in the grave, I mean, thank god. No. 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.040 I think my grandparents briefly got introduced to my Space 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.560 before being too sick to use the internet anymore. They 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:13.639 were on a O L for a while though. Oh 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.280 that's that's quaint. Yeah, they were on a L for 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.760 a while. Um, you know, it's uh, it's what I 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.079 don't often say. Thank goodness for Louis body demandship. But 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:27.480 at least it stopped them from from knowing the horrors 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:29.880 that were to come in the digital age. They got 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:35.760 they got right off the bus before things got terrible. Yeah, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:41.840 that is so friends, Romans countrymen, how do you feel 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.680 about meta? Which is totally what we're all gonna be 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.560 calling Facebook for now on for forever. My main thought, 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:50.640 honestly is that like the word meta, the past like 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.520 two years, the word meta has been ruined, both like 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.560 pop culture thinking it's smart and then ship like this 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:02.400 now that once useful concept has now been obliterated and 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.720 we can't use it. You can't be meta. And and 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:07.680 the fact that Facebook is attempting to use this as 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:10.440 the name of their company shows that Mark Zuckerberg hasn't 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.760 had a conversation on even footing in his entire adult life, 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:16.400 Like everyone is trying to get someone out of him 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:18.920 every time he talks to anybody, so nobody would say, like, 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.840 you know, Mark, met is a terrible name for a company. 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.560 But anyway, they did that, and they had a big 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:26.760 event about two weeks ago where they got up and 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:28.720 talked for an hour and twenty minutes about the future 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:31.600 of the Internet and what Facebook's vision of the metaverse 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:35.840 was going to be, all this all this very fun stuff. Okay, 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.040 so here's the thing. It's a bad idea, and normally, 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:40.400 like bad tech ideas are a dime a dozen, and 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:42.120 we don't cover them on our show because this is 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.760 a show. It could happen here about collapse, things falling apart, 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.040 and the future and what's going to come next. But 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:51.280 in this case, talking about meta is actually really worthwhile 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.440 because meta is one example of how the people who 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.240 are kind of in control, or at least in control 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.040 of the significant amount of the world that we live in, 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:02.880 particularly the digital spaces that we've all agreed to be 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.240 locked into, see the future. I think the thing that 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:08.480 like makes it clear why this is in our wheelhouse 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.760 is an article from Wired by Matthew Galt, who's a 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.400 buddy of mine. He's a great journalist. Um. And it's 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.960 titled Billionaires CVR as a Way to Avoid Radical Social 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:20.680 Change um. And that title does kind of get to 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:24.120 the get to the nut of it. But the quotes 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.600 in this thing are fucking wild. So before we get 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:28.960 into Mark Zuckerberg and his vision of the future of 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.680 the Internet and of humanity, UM, I want to read 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:35.600 some quotes from John Carmack. Um. So, John Carmack is 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.359 the guy. He made Doom right, Like, you can't overstate 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.200 the the impact John Carmack had on gaming, Like he 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:45.159 invented the first, like first effectively the first popular first 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:49.960 person shooter. He was the CTO of Oculus for a while. UM, 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:53.080 and he's very familiar with like three D digital spaces, Yes, 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.040 and he's he's very bullish on VR. UM and he 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.160 gave a quote, well, not gave a code. He talked 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:00.640 to Joe Rogan during an interview in twenty twenty and 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.280 he said this. Some people read this the wrong way 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:05.240 and react in correctly to it. The promise of VR 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.000 is to make the world you wanted. It is not 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.560 possible on earth to give everyone all that they would want. 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.120 Not everyone can have Richard Branson's private island. People react 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.360 negatively to any talk of economics, but it is resource allocation. 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.440 You have to make decisions about where things go economically. 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:21.240 You can deliver a lot more value to a lot 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:25.560 of people in the digital in the virtual sense. UM. 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.440 And that's one of those things that you can see 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.159 how a guy like John Carmack, who was again a 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:33.920 smart guy who's been ahead of the curve on a 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.440 number of important things, could could convince himself this is true. 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:39.599 This is absurd. And I think what we see in 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.440 Facebook's video is going to make clear that it's absurd. 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.080 One of the reasons that it's absurd is that UM, 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:48.200 like everything else, the people who are building the metaverse 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.240 have done, like what they've done to the Internet. The 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:55.320 Internet before Facebook and Twitter and these like these behemoths, 0:05:55.920 --> 0:06:00.680 UM used to be weird in decentralized and primarily not 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:02.960 for profit UM. There was there was a period of 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:04.680 time in which like the idea that you would actually 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:06.960 make money off the Internet, like really out of like 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.640 content or whatever was just silly because it was this 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.480 it was impossible to monetize. It was this weird, wild, 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.960 like creative nonsense pile UM. And you can only kind 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:17.880 of make money around the edges of it, but the 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.080 core of it was just just far too strange and 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:25.360 uncontrollable UM, too wild and free. UM. And that's not 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:27.880 the Internet anymore because of the people. Because in large 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:29.440 part of the people who are trying to build these 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.560 metaverses and the idea that they would allow poor people 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.400 to have the same kind of resources as rich people 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:39.400 in the metaverse. There, they can't let that happen. They're 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:40.960 not the kind of people who would let that happen. 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.560 They're going to monetize every aspect of this thing. If 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.760 it becomes real, we ever have like an all encompassing metaverse, 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.560 every every moment of it and everything you do in it, 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.960 everything you have in it is going to cost you money, 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.520 probably with some kind of bullshit subscription plus to adding on, 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.800 you know, like randomized cashes and other like you know, 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:03.120 lootbox type mechanics. Selling gambling the children is the business 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:05.520 model of the future. By the future, I mean it's 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.720 been happening. Yeah, it's the business model they want for now. 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.160 I will state I think some sort of persistent virtual 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:16.640 reality thing will probably happen in some ways someday. I 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:18.600 don't think any of these people. Part of why my 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:20.880 thesis of this is none of these people are capable 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.400 of making it. It's because they look at this the 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.320 same way like shitty app developer, shitty like game developers 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:29.760 for Facebook look at gaming, where it's like everything should 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:31.120 cost money, you should be able to pay to win, 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.080 and it's like, well, nobody likes that, like nobody, nobody 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.960 likes those games. Those are not the things that are successful. 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.160 Like and it is one of the games that comes 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:41.840 up a lot when people talk about the metaverse is 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.440 Minecraft and what made Minecraft hugely successful and why you 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.400 can kind of plausibly see like, oh, this has elements 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:52.360 of a metaverse where you're everybody's building these gigantic, persistent 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:54.320 things that you can interact with and that you can 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:56.320 make these incredible and people made like works of art 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:58.720 in Minecraft. They did it for free, and they did 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.480 it because like nothing costs money really in Minecraft, if 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.200 I'm not mistaken, like you can make anything with nothing 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.520 just by the game, and then you have the game 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:11.680 and you can build whatever you want. Your equity is effort, right, 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:13.800 like yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's like you know, like 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.400 what are my friends like learned computer science? So he 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.160 could like, okay, create circuits, right, he like he built 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.400 a like functioning computer in this game, just like you 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:26.120 can you can buy like it's it's like, it's pretty. 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.760 It's pretty. Yeah. If you're gonna tell me sometime in 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.240 the future, virtual reality in the Internet is going to 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:35.000 get like so good and so pervasive that eventually people 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.880 will bootstrap together some kind of metaverse. Yeah, maybe like 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:40.920 that that could happen if it comes from like a 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.480 cyber like punk aspect, where like emphasis on the punk, 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:46.520 then so I can see this being a thing but 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.200 the way tech companies are talking about this, that's not 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.080 how people use the Internet currently specifically, like the mainstream people, 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.000 there's no way, yeah, and there's there's a few more. 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:56.920 Like one of the things that Matt brings up in 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:58.920 this article is like VR is a way to avoid 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:03.520 radical social change. UM is uh like kind of the 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.120 one of the reasons why he's number one, and I 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.079 think where we should all be kind of critical about 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.600 how realistic it is is kind of the present state 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:13.760 of virtual reality, which is about one point seven percent 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.839 of Steam users have a VR headset, Steam being kind 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:20.240 of the largest app to try to monitor like how 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:22.480 many people are using VR right, Like, it's kind of 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.679 your best it's figuring out the biggest it's the biggest 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:30.360 PC gaming UM headsets. Sales of VR headsets did go 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:32.920 up about thirty during the pandemic UM, but that was 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:37.000 kind of alongside of surge in video game sales. VR headsets. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:41.199 We're already we're already boosting, and the pandemic definitely it 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:43.520 empercise that because it's like, Hey, I'm stuck at my house. 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.359 What can I do? Well, I'll buy like a two oculus, 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:48.800 so I can you know, walk around and fight Ninja's 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.880 in my living room. And VR is like real, like 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.760 VRS cool, like it's I have a VR headset for years. 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.840 It can do one of the things that um I 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.720 talked we're talking about like what takes for technology, new 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.080 technology to like go viral, to become like endemic. It 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:06.720 has some of that, which is that as soon as 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:08.720 you put one of these on, most people, unless you're 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:10.440 one of the people that it makes sick. Most people, 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.320 if you put them, put them on and you show 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:14.640 them the right thing, they're like, oh, this is actually 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.000 way cooler than I thought it was going to be. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.840 UM So that is like I'm not I'm not like 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.800 has I'm not poo pooing the entire idea of VR. 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:26.440 UM And there's there's there's been some successes on like 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.920 Half Life. Alex sold about two million copies, which is 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.920 huge for VR, but like also nothing for a video game, 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.320 Like that's like for a big for a fucking Half 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.840 Life game. That ship, which just it just shows that 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.120 it's still like fractional, which I don't think any of 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.800 these people are kind of missing UM, but it is 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.839 kind of point to again that the degree to which 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.520 this technology would have to leap up for anything like 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.000 what Facebook where we're about to look like it for 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.520 that to actually be popular. There's a difference between developing 0:10:55.600 --> 0:11:00.000 VR gaming and developing this metaverse concept which goes way 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:04.520 on VR gaming. Yeah yeah, um, but I so what 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.920 I find what I find so like doomed about this 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.600 isn't the technology, even though I think it's important to 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:12.439 acknowledge there's a long way to go, just in terms 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.640 of like how heavy it is, how much space you need, 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:19.040 how not fully immersive it is. You know it's yeah, 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:23.079 trying to remove lighthouses making it more mobile. Yeah, there's 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.000 a lot, there's a lot of stuff that control schemes 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.920 are still kind of jank, like, yeah, there's a lot 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.160 to be done. But all of that's I mean, think 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.240 about the first iPhone, right, it was like a fucking 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.040 brick compared to the ship. Today, all of that gets better, 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.000 and all the first VR headset compared to the Oculus two, 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.480 it's like a massive improvement and basically every way. I 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.240 don't think when people criticize this stuff by pointing out 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.080 like how primitive VR is today, I don't think that 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.840 means anything. Um, it is like worth noting, you know, 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.640 it's current level of adoption, but it's not people compare 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.400 this to like three D TVs and stuff. It's not 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.520 that three D TVs were immediately obviously from the beginning, 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:02.280 nothing but a but a grift um because there's nobody 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:05.400 wanted what really wanted what three dtvs had. Like VR, 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:07.559 people do want what VR does, and eventually the tech 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.160 will get there. What's bullshit is the idea. And this 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.240 is why I think this article by Galt is so good. 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.640 The idea that VR is going to allow the poor 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:19.760 and downtrodden of the world to have a slice of 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.079 the good life. And this is something Karmak is particularly 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.040 bullish about. Quote not everyone can have a mansion, Not 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:26.960 everyone can have a home theater. These are things we 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.800 can simulate to some degree in virtual reality. Now the 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:31.640 simulation is not as good as the real thing. If 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.240 you are rich and you have your own home, theater 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.120 or mansion or in private island, good for you, You're 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.160 probably not the people who are going to benefit the most. 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.320 Most of the people in the world lived in cramped 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.280 quarters that are not what they would choose if to 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.200 be if they had unlimited resources. Incredibly deranged. Yeah, it's 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.200 out of its mind, because that's not how VR works. 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.200 Like I have Like I can put on my headset 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.000 and load up like a nice forest, and it's not 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:56.200 it's not the feeling of being in a fort like, No, 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.920 that's not that's not how our senses work. So until 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.000 we can hack our own means and the feeling things 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:04.320 we don't actually feel, then it's not a thing. And 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.240 we're nowhere close to that level of technology, even just 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.160 to the degree that he's talking about, Like, yeah, you 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:11.160 could you if you don't have a big home theater, 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:13.440 you could just like put it on and have a 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:15.520 huge TV. And which is a thing that VR can 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:20.280 do now, Like it's not good. It's like Garrison, you 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.520 come over to three times a week and we watch 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.079 movies with all of our friends in my living room. 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.600 Like the good thing about it, Like it's nice to 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:29.600 have a large screen. I have a big TV, but 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:34.920 like your friends, you're watching them react, like you're eating 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.040 food together. You're doing all this stuff that will never 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.560 really be possible in VR. I have a lot of 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.000 respect for John Karmen. He made Doom right, Like that's 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.520 a third of my childhood. Um, he's out of his 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.200 mind now if he thinks that that's like what people want, 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.920 what poor people want, Like you've been rich for too long, sir, 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.960 you don't understand human beings. A particular type of escape, 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.360 like using VR as that type of escapism is totally 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.400 wrong because like VR can be escapism, but not gonna 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.240 trick you into thinking you're living in a mansion. That's 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.760 not that's not how VR. It works because you're walking 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.520 around a tiny room in your house and you can't 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:09.760 feel anything. You can like walk through cupboards, which is 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.559 a great way to play VR games is you can 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.280 just like hack it by walking into stuff. And they're 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:18.080 working on so the The article notes that Elon Musk 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.480 is working in a brain machine interface called new Link. 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:25.320 Yeah yeah, and who knows what I will say, that's 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:28.280 a little bit like the how how realistic all of 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:33.040 those dreams are um is questionable. That said, something like 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.840 what they're claiming it is will eventually be figured out. 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.560 It will, and it should it will probably probably should 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.480 be destroyed. It probably should be destroyed. Not put the 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:47.840 chip in your brain is really bullish on that technology. 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:49.920 Gabe Newell is the guy we have half life for 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:51.880 like he and he and John Karnack. If there's a 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:56.280 mount rushmore of like gamer dudes, it's they make they 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.520 make one of the they make one of the better headsets. Yeah. Again, 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.080 like we're about to talk about Mark Zuckerberg, who I 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:04.400 do not think as a visionary. Both Karmak and Newell 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.080 are visionaries. Doesn't mean they're right, because visionaries are wrong 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.000 all of the fucking time. It's part of their job. 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.880 But they're both really, really fucking bullish on this Newell 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:14.920 is a big believer in like the promise of kind 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.960 of what the neural link, the brain interface technology and 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.800 vr uh. He told I g NY were way closer 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.720 to the matrix than people realize, which I don't think 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.760 is the case. Um. And Newell is the person who 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.640 I've just talked about, like how smart he is. He 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.360 is even more out of his mind than John Karmack 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.440 on this ship um. In an interview with New Zealand's 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.440 One News um, he talked about his vision of the 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:42.480 near future, which is a world in which brains and 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:46.000 computers interface, and computers can make changes to the human 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:50.840 brain he called he called the human body a meat peripheral. 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:56.360 Jesus Christ so lost his mind. This is the this 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:58.520 is the thing about like VR, and like the metaverse 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:03.120 in generals is over like emphasizing that we basically just 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.680 live in the meat space, and the meat space exists 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.240 just to make content for the online which is so 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.080 and the online space is the actual real space and 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.080 we just have to operate inside our meat space to 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.200 make content for that. This is like the way technology 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.240 has been progressing, the way tech companies have wanting things 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:18.960 to go, And it's the most dystopian thing that's going 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:22.000 to give so many people like disassociate of mental disorders 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.080 because it's not horrible. For like, I'm going to be 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.880 super interested to see people of my generation, including myself, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.960 like how we develop mentally the next you know, twenty 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:34.920 years based on how kind of fake our lives have 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.200 been because of how much we exist and socialized within 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.680 this like false network. It's gonna be interesting to watch. 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:46.000 I I used to be really optimistic about aspects of VR. 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.720 I actually when I was in Mosle, I filmed not 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.520 that like other people did this before I did, but 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.000 I was kind of one of the early people filming 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.520 like a a VR documentary of some combat of like 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.560 the Battle of mosle Um, aspects of which were aired 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.120 as A three sixty and a bunch of different like 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:07.399 TV networks UM, and I had this belief that, like, yeah, VR, 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.439 because the visual aspect of VR is so good, you know, 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.120 you know, even at that point Seen was already so good. 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.760 I disbelieve it, like, well if you could, because the 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:19.439 first time I ever went into a war zone, it 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.720 was such an affecting experience, and I thought like, oh 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.680 my god, if you could somehow carve out this moment 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.639 of experience and like transmitted to other people, maybe that 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.000 would mean something. Maybe it would like have an impact 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.320 on people. I do think that is possible in the 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:36.080 long Yeah, yeah, I think maybe we'll like we'll see. 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.320 The question is like, can you give a ship if 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.239 if you feel like horror games, the level of like 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.200 anxiety and some degrees trauma of playing like a really 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.879 well made horror VR game is incredibly intense, UM, and 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:50.400 that's something that'd be done very well. So I feel 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:52.479 like that type of like surreal experience like a war 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:54.480 zone could actually be carried over to some degree in 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.480 VR to like change people's minds on like hey, maybe 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.600 war is not good. Yeah, I mean that that's the dream. 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:02.520 I don't know how much I still believe that, but 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.680 reading people like Gabe Newell and how they talk about 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:10.040 this technology makes me lose some hope and all the 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:14.200 headsets in. Here's another thing Gabe Newell said in that 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.280 a garrison, after calling the human body and meat peripheral. 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.960 You're used to experiencing the world through eyes, but eyes 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.400 were created by this low cost bidder that didn't care 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:25.760 about failure rates in r m as, and if it 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.200 got broken, there was no way to repair anything effectively, 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.159 which totally makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, but it's 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:39.439 not at all reflective of consumer preferences of the human eye. 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:44.760 No like funck like like they There is some aspects 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.679 of trans humanism that I like. I like to change 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.560 like body parts at will with like my mind, but 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.480 this type of stuff actually want to throw all technology. 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.560 I support the idea of, Like, it would be great 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:01.600 if when people lose their eye completely from like shrapnel 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:04.919 or whatever some sort of like degenerative disease, we just 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.640 pop new eyes in there. Absolutely we start cloning eyes. 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.400 I think that's a great thing. But eyes are amazing, 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:16.440 Like it's the most the most impressive camera ever. We're 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:20.280 nowhere close to replicating the ability. It is not a 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.680 low cost bitter. It is like they're imperfect, like everything 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:25.560 that that is part of the human body. But like 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.359 the break down said that, he can't monetize it the 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.560 same day, right, That's that's his problem. He's also talking 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:33.840 about like well they break down. It's like, motherfucker, have 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.520 you used a computer You're gave Newell. I've know you've 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.160 used a computer, Like you want to talk about breaking 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:46.280 every computer I've ever owned. I've used Steam before, Like, yeah, Steam, motherfucker. 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.200 I like, I would rather have my eyes and I'm 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.760 wearing glasses right now, go sucking egg. And it goes 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.919 on because he he can't stop ship talking like reality 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.600 he talks about like in the in the virtual world 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.960 he wants to build, the real world will seem flat, colorless, 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.399 blurry compared to the experiences you'll be able to create 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.080 in people's brains. Um And I want you to keep 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.560 that in mind, my my, my dear friends and colleagues 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:15.600 as we leap now into the Facebook live stream. First 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:18.080 of all, I think would it be worth like explaining 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.040 to and we've we've danced around what the metaverse is. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.680 But for people who are totally unfamiliarly, do you think 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:25.960 it would be worth giving a general explanation? Will that 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:27.760 be covered in the Facebook thing that's kind of covered 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:29.720 in the because because this is Facebook building it. But 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.040 I think we should. You're probably right that we should 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:33.719 give a little bit of context about like where they 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.679 got this idea, because again Mark Zuckerberg has never had 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.439 an original thought. It's not um and and Gave Newell 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.200 and and um John Carmack have had original thoughts in 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:45.360 their life, but this is not an original thought from 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:47.880 any of them, all of them, everyone anywhere who talks 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:50.879 about the metaverse um is whether or not they know it. 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.480 A fan of Neil Stevenson who wrote who wrote a 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:57.040 book called snow Crash, where the point was that in 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.800 the future the world is a dystopian corporate is nightmare. 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.040 And because things are, in part because things are so 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:09.240 bad and incredibly highly like advertised and monetized persistent internet 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:11.439 called the metaverse that exists all around us and it's 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.639 totally immersive, has come to dominate everyday life. Um and 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.960 it's a bad thing. Like snow Crash, He's a story 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.360 of like wouldn't this future be horrible? Yeah, it's not like, hey, 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:24.320 this is a cool thing, but these tech guys read 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.440 this and are like, oh yeah, that seems like fun. 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:29.120 But you could do that. Neil Stevenson, who was yet 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.879 another person I respect, made one crucial flaw, which is 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.480 he gave the hero in his book a katana. And 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:39.439 because the hero in his book, um, everyone was like, 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:41.800 wouldn't this be rad if this were the future? Let's 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.439 make this be the entire future. It's a real tragic 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:46.919 You need to abolish katanas, like, we would save so 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:50.720 many lives. Honestly, you could probably make a strong case 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.200 that the katana has a huge chunk of the cultural 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.160 weight that it has because if Neil Stevenson, um, he's 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:57.840 a big part of that, right, you know, you've got 0:21:57.880 --> 0:21:59.440 a lot of movies and stuff too. But yeah, but 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.280 like the a ton of punk kind of melding. Yeah, 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:04.600 and it's it's a it's a it's a very I mean, 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:06.879 it's it's a bit dated now, but it's still like 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:08.840 a good book to read. Like there's a bunch of 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:11.360 silly stuff like that. It's replicating a lot of other 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.160 cyberpunk art, some better, some worse. Yes, every worse cough 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:18.760 cough ready player one, yeah, and every like every not 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:21.480 every cyberpunk sense, because there's people like Corey doctor Oh 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.880 who do some really cool shit. Um, but most cyberpunk 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:29.640 senses to some extent um borrowed from from Neil Stevenson's work, 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:31.919 and Facebook's entire idea is based on this. And so 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.160 the idea is that it is a persistent, fully immersive 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.760 digital world that interacts with the real world. So you 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:41.160 can be in VR hanging out with friends from around 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:43.280 the world and like a fake living room and then 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:45.440 like call someone and see like a video of them 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:47.159 in the real world as they're like walking to a 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:49.080 concert or whatever, and like talk to them and like 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:54.359 make play. Like that's the idea, right. Um. So this video, 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:56.400 this face, it opens with you know, you've got your 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:58.480 your little introduction music and stuff, and then we see 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:03.640 Mark Zuckerberg looking like a fucking gollum. Um. Yeah. And 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:06.000 and the first thing that I really noticed about this 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:08.879 is that he talks about how we're all going to 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:12.080 do this together, meaning invent the technologies and use cases 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:15.119 that are going to make the metaverse worthwhile. Um. And 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:16.560 when he says all of us. This is not an 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.440 internal Facebook video. This is a video. The meta video 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:24.919 is heavily angled towards developers UM and investors UM and 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:26.520 it's been viewed by a lot of people, like twelve 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:29.280 million to date. But he's talking about like a big 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:31.800 part of what he's saying is that like the technology 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:34.160 for all of the stuff that we've rendered, because most 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:37.200 of what's rendered in this isn't game footage so to speak, 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:39.520 like it's not a game or whatever. It's here's how 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:42.800 it might look if the technology has ever invented. Nothing, 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:45.680 nothing is like in engine or anything close to it. 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:48.760 It's a it's all speculative. What's interesting about this to 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:50.920 me is that he's he is saying we're going to 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.680 build this together and and sort of acknowledging that like 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.280 Facebook does not have the capacity to make this thing 0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:58.800 they've dreamed about, but Facebook is going to own it. 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:01.359 So he's a lot to like. This is him tacitly 0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:04.560 admitting I want to take your surplus value to make 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:07.800 a metaverse that I then control and monetize entirely at 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:11.600 my own discretion, which is cool, it's great, and it's 0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:13.840 also like I think, you know, I think if if 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:15.960 you want a sign of where this is actually going 0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:18.359 and like the actual creativity behind this. Like okay, again, 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:20.760 everything in that video is a mock up, right. It 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:26.240 looks like dogshit. It's so ugly, it's hideous. It looks 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:29.639 like a fucking Connect game or like a fucking we game, 0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:33.560 which is fine, but I don't want to live there, 0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:37.679 like it's always weird in cartoony. Um. Yeah, so he 0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:39.840 talks about in kind of laying out why he thinks 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:42.280 this is the future. Zuckerberry talks about how text used 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:44.919 to be the basis of everything online, but now like 0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:49.959 photos and videos dominate and that's yeah, as that change 0:24:50.000 --> 0:24:52.960 happened from like text to video to photos to videos. 0:24:53.320 --> 0:24:55.680 The next change, he kind of frames it like the 0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:59.240 the the the obvious next evolution, is to what he 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:02.880 calls an embod audied Internet where you're part of the experience. 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:05.720 And that's the metaverse, which again that if you don't 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:08.800 I think that part has some true I agree. I 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:15.040 don't think he's entirely wrong there. Obviously that's not his idea. Um, oh, 0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:17.280 running out of time, Okay, thank you for telling me 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:21.120 about the host and because its unlimited minutes. Great thanks zoom. Um. 0:25:21.119 --> 0:25:26.280 Speaking of meta verses, UM like, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:30.000 gonna flop onto a share screen and I'm gonna show 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:33.400 you guys a section from this from this video, think 0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:37.720 about computers or phones today. Now, since we're doing this 0:25:37.880 --> 0:25:43.159 remotely today, I figured let's make this special. So we've 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:45.480 put together something that I think is really going to 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:48.880 give you a feeling for what this future could be like. 0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:53.439 We believe the metaverse will be the successor to the 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:57.120 mobile Internet. We'll be able to feel present, like we're 0:25:57.200 --> 0:25:59.520 right there with people, no matter how far apart we 0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:02.600 actually are. Okay, so I'm pausing it here because I 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:05.520 want you to watch this. The room that Mark Zuckerberget 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:08.439 is in, he's not in the metaverse yet, he's in 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:10.640 like a house. I think it's supposed to be his house. 0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:13.760 It is clearly not a place human beings list. It 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:15.840 has been set dressed. Um. One of the ways you 0:26:15.880 --> 0:26:17.600 can tell is that all of the books and picture 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:20.000 frames on the bookcase are like the same flat tones 0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:22.399 because they're not meant to stand out, They're meant to 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:26.159 blend in and very telling Lee this is what's interesting 0:26:26.200 --> 0:26:28.240 to me. As soon as he steps into the frame 0:26:28.240 --> 0:26:29.960 where he's going to announce this. The thing that is 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:32.400 directly next to his head is the only thing that's 0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:34.880 not like the same kind of baige as everything. It's 0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:37.200 a bottle of barbecue sauce that's being used as the 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:40.320 book ind to a bunch of books now Meta. Immediately 0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:42.760 after this, like people joked about it online and Meta 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:44.840 started tweeting about it and like trying to make like 0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:47.480 jokes about oh, Mark just loves his you know, his 0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:49.520 his barbecue so much. Like they tried to turn it 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:53.639 into a meme because they think it's humanizing and and 0:26:53.800 --> 0:26:56.159 and kind of one aspect of the meme they were 0:26:56.160 --> 0:26:58.359 putting together is that like, oh, he just forgot to 0:26:58.600 --> 0:27:00.600 you know, he just he's he's so into barbecue that 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:03.920 he leaves his saucer that was put there on someone's orders, 0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:06.200 Like that was it was to create me. We're seeing 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:09.560 we're seeing Marvel dis as well. They're releasing promotional images 0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:13.520 specifically designed to be turned into memes, and it doesn't work. 0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:15.560 We said's so obvious, like because we'd be like, you know, yeah, 0:27:15.560 --> 0:27:17.080 we're not going to use this because it's it's a 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:21.440 it's a dogshit horrible, like horrible cinematography, bad colors, and 0:27:21.520 --> 0:27:24.200 it's not a fun meme. But people did follow for 0:27:24.240 --> 0:27:26.760 the Mark Zuckerberg thing, Uh like, oh look at the 0:27:26.760 --> 0:27:29.080 barbecue thoughts. But yeah, that was intentional to create like 0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:32.480 a viral thing to trip. Yeah, anyway, I'm gonna let 0:27:32.560 --> 0:27:35.760 Mark continue here after I made my little point. When 0:27:35.760 --> 0:27:38.200 I send my parents a video of my kids, they're 0:27:38.200 --> 0:27:40.199 gonna feel like they're right in the moment with us, 0:27:40.280 --> 0:27:43.760 not peering through a little window. When you play a 0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:46.520 game with your friends, you'll feel like you're right there 0:27:46.520 --> 0:27:49.720 together in a different worlds, not just on your computer 0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:53.080 by yourself. And when you're in a meeting in the metaverse, 0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:56.200 it'll feel like you're right in the room together, making 0:27:56.280 --> 0:27:59.400 eye contact, having a shared sense of space, and not 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:03.760 just looking at a grid of faces. So that's important 0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:06.160 because a big aspect of what he's trying to sell here, 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:09.560 why he's he's trying to convince people that this is 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:13.440 a real thing, is that it's a balm for loneliness. Right. Um, 0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:16.040 he is he is, and he's one of people who's 0:28:16.080 --> 0:28:19.199 responsible for for pushing our society to such an atomized 0:28:19.200 --> 0:28:22.520 and isolated direction. Facebook propaganda has isolated huge numbers of 0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:25.159 people from their families. It's um. And of course then 0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:27.080 there's just the aspect of it that is the lockdown, 0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:29.080 which has isolated people a number of a lot of 0:28:29.080 --> 0:28:33.359 which ties back to disinformation spread on Facebook. But like, um, 0:28:33.400 --> 0:28:35.800 he's he's, he's selling this, you know, as a this 0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:37.879 will make you less lonely, will make you feel like 0:28:37.920 --> 0:28:42.560 you're all together. Um, and it's it's He's specifically says 0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:45.400 at one point, this isn't about spending more time on screens. 0:28:45.400 --> 0:28:49.160 It's about making the time we spend on screens already better. Um, 0:28:49.200 --> 0:28:51.880 which is horseshit because, as the Facebook papers make clear, 0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:54.520 Facebook has repeatedly refused to do things that would have 0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:57.000 reduced the harm of their platform because it would have 0:28:57.000 --> 0:28:59.160 reduced the traffic that they've got. And I think those 0:28:59.160 --> 0:29:01.680 are the kind of decision you can Yeah, I mean, 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:04.640 and still like technologically we're still not there, Like when 0:29:04.680 --> 0:29:07.720 when when you're in VR you even if you're interacting 0:29:07.720 --> 0:29:10.920 with other like three D like personas of people specifically, 0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:13.360 like vr chat was very popular among like furries, and 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:15.040 I think they are honestly the best example of what 0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:18.160 the metaverse could actually be is how furries use vr 0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:22.200 chat um. But even still that is very different um 0:29:22.440 --> 0:29:25.400 than standing in a room with someone in a first suit, right, 0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:29.560 Like it's it's totally it's it's totally different and metaverses 0:29:29.760 --> 0:29:31.800 and this type of thing. I don't think we'll actually 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:35.560 solve alienation. I don't think it's because you're not actually 0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:38.760 touching anyone, Like it's it's not if you're not. There's 0:29:38.800 --> 0:29:42.080 still that that that digital fog between you and everything else. 0:29:42.320 --> 0:29:44.000 Do I think there's some elements of it that could 0:29:44.000 --> 0:29:46.320 be developed, specifically using a R that would make things 0:29:46.360 --> 0:29:49.360 a little bit cool. Yeah, uh, but it's not going 0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:52.320 to solve alienation as a concept. In fact, it could 0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:54.920 actually make it worse. It could make it worse. Like again, 0:29:54.960 --> 0:29:56.680 there's some use cases for I don't know, people who 0:29:56.720 --> 0:29:58.360 have like a l S. Maybe you could develop some 0:29:58.400 --> 0:30:00.360 sort of rig that would allow them to in ract 0:30:00.640 --> 0:30:04.160 like more with with people around them and like that 0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:06.680 could be useful for those people. But like, it is 0:30:06.720 --> 0:30:08.959 not a societal answer to loneliness. And I think one 0:30:09.000 --> 0:30:10.440 thing that makes that clear is you look at their 0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:12.400 vision of home spaces. So this is kind of the 0:30:12.440 --> 0:30:14.600 center of the of the Metaverse they want to build 0:30:14.680 --> 0:30:17.880 is everybody has their little digital home um that you 0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:20.360 can set up and you can design to your liking, 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:22.880 and you can buy things like n f T s 0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:24.800 to decorate it. This becomes a big part of the 0:30:24.800 --> 0:30:26.200 pitch that like n f t s are going to 0:30:26.280 --> 0:30:27.720 be in it and like that way you know that 0:30:27.960 --> 0:30:30.040 they have at one point, like somebody buys like an 0:30:30.040 --> 0:30:33.840 autographed poster for of metaverse concert that's an n f 0:30:33.880 --> 0:30:35.400 T and they get to put it in their room 0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:38.160 and know that it's the only one of those posters 0:30:38.240 --> 0:30:43.120 or something, which is the dumbest thing I can imagine. Um, 0:30:43.160 --> 0:30:45.640 maybe it'll work. I don't know. I I don't really 0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:48.280 see how that's any different from an n f T 0:30:48.440 --> 0:30:51.320 being revolutionary case than like, you know, being able to 0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:54.440 buy something in a fucking video game. No, it's it's 0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:57.080 the way people already hate to do. Yeah, it's it's 0:30:57.120 --> 0:31:01.240 just skins or whatever. Bullshit, cause me stuff I want. 0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:03.479 Number One of the things that's in entertaining about this 0:31:03.520 --> 0:31:05.200 is how bad a lot of the acting is for 0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:07.800 all the money and time they have. Like Mark Zuckerberg 0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:10.600 is a ship presenter and and this bit where he 0:31:10.640 --> 0:31:14.840 tries to explain why the home space is so cool. Um, 0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:17.240 and it shows you like their home spaces. It starts 0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:19.280 about four thirty on the video of people at home 0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:22.520 when a watch is just a perfect, perfect encapsulation of 0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:25.160 like how inhuman this this world they want to build 0:31:25.200 --> 0:31:27.320 really feels what even when they try to present it 0:31:27.320 --> 0:31:30.959 in its best face? Oh? Hey, Mark, Hey, what's going on? 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:36.600 We're floating in space made this place? That's awesome, right, 0:31:37.000 --> 0:31:39.320 it's from the creator I met in l a. Uh, 0:31:39.560 --> 0:31:44.040 this place is amazing that you of course it's me, 0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:46.120 you know, I had to do the robot. Man. I 0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:51.640 thought I was supposed to be the robot. Whoa, I 0:31:51.720 --> 0:32:01.800 knew you were luffing. Where is na Let's call her Naomi? Hey? 0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:04.440 Should we do it? Really? I'm running late, but you've 0:32:04.480 --> 0:32:06.600 got to see what we're checking out. There's an artist 0:32:06.640 --> 0:32:09.920 going around so hoped t r pieces for people to fight. 0:32:12.000 --> 0:32:16.680 Really street art, that's cool. So I wanted to stop 0:32:16.680 --> 0:32:19.720 here because this is also part of like what's it's 0:32:19.720 --> 0:32:21.800 this perfect? It's like n FT culture and all this 0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:24.360 ship like the street art they show, this is clearly 0:32:24.400 --> 0:32:25.920 them trying to be like, here's one of these cool 0:32:26.000 --> 0:32:28.320 use cases for how the metaverse is going to interact 0:32:28.320 --> 0:32:31.320 with and influence the real world. Like this artist pastes 0:32:31.440 --> 0:32:33.320 this art on a wall that when you look at 0:32:33.360 --> 0:32:35.400 it in the metaverse or when you you film it 0:32:35.440 --> 0:32:36.880 and you send a video to people in the metaverse, 0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:39.440 it becomes this big three D thing and it it 0:32:39.520 --> 0:32:41.040 just looks like ship. It's just a bunch of like 0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:44.920 squiggly lines and stuff like. It's not like there's good graffiti, 0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:49.080 especially in San Francisco, there's incredible fucking graffiti. Um, this 0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:51.480 is just like nonsense. It looks like it looks like 0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:53.680 a fucking n f T. Like it's just this this 0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:56.200 kind of shitty. It was obviously designed by a computer, 0:32:56.360 --> 0:32:59.240 not an actual person. Yeah, and there's nothing like it 0:32:59.280 --> 0:33:02.240 doesn't say any thing. There's nothing cool about it. Um 0:33:02.320 --> 0:33:05.240 and they haven't again because Mark Zuckerberg can't conceive of art. 0:33:05.600 --> 0:33:08.280 There's nothing about this that like makes me think, oh 0:33:08.600 --> 0:33:11.040 what a need futuristic thing, which was like, oh cool, 0:33:11.080 --> 0:33:14.400 I can see squiggly lines it has in person and 0:33:14.480 --> 0:33:16.600 on my phone. I mean, the big metaverse and like 0:33:16.680 --> 0:33:19.240 a R and VR is like you know, making depth 0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:21.840 within actually making two D space appear to be three 0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:24.120 D space. This still looks too D like it doesn't. 0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:26.920 It is not. It's not tricking my brain in any 0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:29.240 way whatsoever. Especially with the concept of like filming it 0:33:29.280 --> 0:33:31.520 on your phone. We have the technology now like that's 0:33:31.520 --> 0:33:34.360 not that's not the metaverse. That's just filming it already 0:33:34.400 --> 0:33:37.240 on your little box, as Zuckerberg said, And we have 0:33:37.320 --> 0:33:39.680 the technology to do like that a r thing with 0:33:39.760 --> 0:33:44.560 fucking um with your Pokemon go did that like five 0:33:44.680 --> 0:33:47.840 years ago, and it's not what people want, um well 0:33:47.880 --> 0:33:52.160 Pokemon but long time. But the closest we ever got 0:33:52.160 --> 0:33:54.840 to world peace and it was a CIA Pokemon goes 0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:57.320 like the closest we ever got to like the metaverse, 0:33:57.400 --> 0:34:01.200 like realistically, but people don't want People don't want to 0:34:01.200 --> 0:34:04.920 like take photos of crappy street art that then becomes 0:34:04.960 --> 0:34:08.080 three D but still isn't like I don't know it is. 0:34:08.440 --> 0:34:11.960 It is incredibly grim that most of like the case 0:34:12.120 --> 0:34:14.720 uses for metaverse stuff. The only thing they can imagine 0:34:14.800 --> 0:34:18.359 it being is like fucking meetings. This is like the 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:20.640 biggest thing that they show. He's like, oh, we can 0:34:20.640 --> 0:34:23.799 make virtual meetings. They've tried that the video that we 0:34:23.920 --> 0:34:27.000 just played. They're all in like this spaceship, and everybody's 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:29.360 three D Like one person, it looks like kind of 0:34:29.400 --> 0:34:31.279 a hologram of their real bodies. Some people are just 0:34:31.320 --> 0:34:33.480 like three D rendered cartoons of themselves. One person is 0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:36.080 a big robot, and they're all like floating in zero 0:34:36.160 --> 0:34:38.320 G and playing card sitting at a table and playing 0:34:38.640 --> 0:34:40.800 virtual cards, and there's like a bed in the background. 0:34:40.800 --> 0:34:42.359 But like you can't go in the bed because it's 0:34:42.440 --> 0:34:44.840 not a fake. It's a fake and you're not floating 0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:47.239 in zero G because the r will never be able 0:34:47.280 --> 0:34:49.719 to trick you into thinking you're sitting in a in 0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:51.960 a in your chair in a room with some ship 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:55.320 on your face. You're you're fucking Carl Havoc and trying 0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:58.000 to pretend that you're like having a good time playing 0:34:58.000 --> 0:34:59.879 cards with your friends. It's like, yeah, if I could 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:02.000 have a space station house where my friends and I 0:35:02.000 --> 0:35:04.080 could float around and play cards, that would be sick. 0:35:04.160 --> 0:35:07.960 But you're not promising that. Are you doing that? Um? 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:10.680 I mean, like there is there is games that simulate 0:35:10.760 --> 0:35:13.640 zero G. They don't trick you. They make you nauseous. 0:35:14.040 --> 0:35:16.680 Sometimes it can be fun, but like it's I'm not 0:35:16.719 --> 0:35:19.200 going to be in the same way that eating Hawaiian 0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:24.520 baby wood row seeds can be fun. Yeah. So he 0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:27.000 goes on to talk about the avatars that you'll have, 0:35:27.160 --> 0:35:30.240 which are basically he describes them as pro profile pictures, 0:35:30.239 --> 0:35:33.799 but much richer because they're live, which I find unsettling 0:35:33.840 --> 0:35:35.960 and part by thinking about what will happen when people 0:35:36.000 --> 0:35:39.680 die to their digital avatars. But whatever. Um. At this 0:35:39.719 --> 0:35:41.400 point he goes on to talking about how people he 0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:45.040 thinks people are going to actually use these avatars, and it's, um, 0:35:45.080 --> 0:35:48.560 it's very unhinged one for hanging out and maybe the 0:35:48.640 --> 0:35:51.520 fantasy one for gaming. You're gonna have a wardrobe of 0:35:51.640 --> 0:35:55.799 virtual clothes for different occasions, designed by different creators and 0:35:56.000 --> 0:36:00.000 from different apps and experiences. So one of the things 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:01.839 he's talking about that is exciting is that like you'll 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:06.200 be able to have a different avatar for uh, like work, 0:36:06.280 --> 0:36:08.040 if you're in a work meeting, or like hanging out 0:36:08.080 --> 0:36:11.640 with your friends. Um. And to me, that says, like, oh, 0:36:11.719 --> 0:36:13.960 so now I'm going to be expected to like maintain 0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:16.640 and keep up an avatar for like my job and 0:36:16.680 --> 0:36:18.840 like dress that fucking thing, and then I'll have to 0:36:18.880 --> 0:36:22.160 like switch to hang out with people, and like why 0:36:22.160 --> 0:36:24.520 why does that what does that provide me being able 0:36:24.560 --> 0:36:27.480 to like sit in a room as an avatar that 0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:31.840 I don't currently have, like through zoom? Like why? Why? Is? 0:36:32.239 --> 0:36:34.920 In what world is that something people want? The only 0:36:35.080 --> 0:36:37.719 only good use case for this is Furries. This is 0:36:37.960 --> 0:36:41.000 the only way it worked because they that has almost 0:36:41.040 --> 0:36:43.520 like a true representation of their own body. What what's 0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:45.560 this is going to do for regularly for like people 0:36:45.600 --> 0:36:48.560 who are not Furries is it'll pride to people a 0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:53.160 lot of weird like dysmorphia. Yeah, or if you're or 0:36:53.200 --> 0:36:55.440 if you're trends and you make a female avatar, assuming 0:36:55.520 --> 0:36:57.279 like you know, for me, if I was to make 0:36:57.320 --> 0:36:59.959 like an avatar that's more feminine, that can be fun 0:37:00.080 --> 0:37:02.520 for me. Um, But for a lot of people, these 0:37:02.600 --> 0:37:06.600 weird like digital versions of themselves will probably they're just 0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:10.640 like Uncanny Valley. It will probably make you feel weird. Yeah. Um. 0:37:10.680 --> 0:37:15.000 And he's he's so focused on like this as a 0:37:15.040 --> 0:37:18.480 way for people to work together while being remote, which 0:37:18.520 --> 0:37:21.400 says a lot like It's seventh, Like like about a 0:37:21.440 --> 0:37:23.360 half minute after this point or a minute or so 0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:26.080 after this point, he brags that your home space can 0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:28.879 even have your own personal office where you work, which 0:37:28.960 --> 0:37:31.919 is within the metaverse, within the metaverse, which is really 0:37:32.520 --> 0:37:39.319 just like digitally ruin your eyes, where the goggles that 0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:42.000 long your eyes get rude because it's blasting light into 0:37:42.000 --> 0:37:45.600 your res and it's it's also just like I like 0:37:45.800 --> 0:37:48.799 sitting with a laptop, and I have a laptop, and 0:37:48.840 --> 0:37:51.360 I have a second screen for my laptop, and I 0:37:51.400 --> 0:37:54.360 sit at my comfortable living room table and I write 0:37:54.440 --> 0:37:57.520 and browse the Internet and research and stuff. And yeah, 0:37:57.520 --> 0:37:59.200 every now and then, like I hunch over too much 0:37:59.239 --> 0:38:01.319 in my back gets little bit sore, but like it's not. 0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:04.040 It's it's pretty comfortable and I can get up and 0:38:04.080 --> 0:38:06.640 move and do stuff in the house, putting a bunch 0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:09.759 of ship on me and sitting still and like being 0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:12.399 unable to perceive the world around me and locked into 0:38:12.400 --> 0:38:15.759 this uncomfortable digital desk because it's later on, whenever they 0:38:15.800 --> 0:38:18.280 do there's this mix of you can see the videos 0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:21.839 of the technology as it actually exists, and they're aspirational, 0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:24.200 and the aspirational version it's like you're in this gorgeous 0:38:24.200 --> 0:38:27.200 three dimensional office that looks so you're playing basketball, both 0:38:27.280 --> 0:38:30.000 in real life and in the Holygram, which at first 0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:32.400 of all just impossible like you're never going to do 0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:36.279 never ever going to happen, just physically impossible. But when 0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:38.120 you see the clips of like what because they do 0:38:38.200 --> 0:38:40.080 have aspects of this built. When you see the clips 0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:41.960 of like the workspaces they have built, it's like, oh, 0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:47.360 of my screen is the Microsoft word app or excel 0:38:47.600 --> 0:38:50.480 um as it or or Outlook as it currently exists, 0:38:50.520 --> 0:38:54.360 and it is like the edges of this little VR office. 0:38:54.840 --> 0:38:57.600 So all I'm looking at is I'm seeing a full 0:38:57.600 --> 0:39:00.600 eye version of like whatever apps i'm you can, yeah, 0:39:00.600 --> 0:39:02.160 you can. You can get a air headset, you can 0:39:02.200 --> 0:39:05.080 download virtual desktop, you can bring your desktop into your 0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:08.080 v into your VR space. It's not useful, like it's 0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:11.040 like it's it's it's novel for the first twenty minutes, 0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:12.680 and then you get bored of it because you realized 0:39:12.680 --> 0:39:14.359 that you can actually see your keyboard so you can't 0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:16.920 type his fast. There's a great joke about this in 0:39:16.960 --> 0:39:21.600 the last season Community, the best example of the metaverse 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:24.120 where he's like because like the big part of like 0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:26.400 Epic Games version of the metaverse is like interacting with 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:29.399 like brands and all your apps within a three three 0:39:29.480 --> 0:39:32.360 D digital space, which is what the Dean does. In 0:39:32.400 --> 0:39:35.880 community has like run to his email. Yeah, Like this 0:39:35.920 --> 0:39:37.440 is a great example of why this technology is never 0:39:37.480 --> 0:39:39.560 going to actually catch on for regular people because that's 0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:42.000 not how they use the Internet. That you don't want 0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:44.799 to traverse a three D digital space to get to 0:39:44.880 --> 0:39:49.680 your email. That's that's asinine. Yeah, and it's there's aspects 0:39:49.719 --> 0:39:52.719 of it that are asinine, and there's aspects of thus 0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:55.040 just impossible. So, like a big thing that he's hitting 0:39:55.040 --> 0:39:58.520 on with this is interoperability, which is like you want 0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:01.600 to be able to transp travel between different apps, between 0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:03.560 different programs that different people have made, and you want 0:40:03.600 --> 0:40:05.359 to be able to take like whatever items you buy, 0:40:05.400 --> 0:40:08.319 whatever n f t s you have with you. Um, 0:40:08.360 --> 0:40:10.280 And he's talking about like this will work in games. 0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:12.399 This is a thing that like you've seen people talk 0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:14.800 about with like the promise of n f t s 0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:16.600 for gaming, Like you could get an item that like 0:40:16.800 --> 0:40:19.960 is yours so they can't nerf it or or whatever, 0:40:20.000 --> 0:40:21.960 and like it will travel for you from game to game. 0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:25.480 There's a developer I follow on on Twitter. He made 0:40:25.480 --> 0:40:28.120 the game Audios, which is about like a guy who 0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:30.239 disposes of bodies for the mob and tries to quit. 0:40:30.320 --> 0:40:32.240 It's a it's a cool games. He's a good developer 0:40:32.320 --> 0:40:34.879 doc something or other. He wrote a huge article about 0:40:34.880 --> 0:40:37.560 like why none of this n f T s can't 0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:39.919 work for gaming? Um. That also hits on like why 0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:42.759 what Zuckerberg saying is impossible? Which is that Like, so 0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:45.640 you're saying that everyone who makes a game has to 0:40:46.440 --> 0:40:49.440 has to build in like a way to handle every 0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:51.840 single item that you could possibly get in the metaverse 0:40:51.840 --> 0:40:56.760 and everything that you're having, Like it's it's an unthinkable challenge. Um, 0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:59.200 it's and and like why and what if a game 0:40:59.239 --> 0:41:01.560 shuts down, right, Like are you saying they have to 0:41:01.560 --> 0:41:04.919 continue operating the game forever and updating it forever, even 0:41:04.920 --> 0:41:06.799 once it's no longer profitable, so that you can keep 0:41:06.880 --> 0:41:11.520 using your eye Like no, it's just it's it's functionally impossible. Um, 0:41:11.560 --> 0:41:14.640 but it's It's what's interesting to me is he's talking 0:41:14.680 --> 0:41:16.680 about all this. He has to know this is impossible 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:18.399 when he does. There's all these scenes, like you said, 0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:20.719 where people like playing basketball, and like one of them 0:41:20.760 --> 0:41:22.200 is in the real world and one of them is 0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:24.680 in VR, but they're both playing in a real world. 0:41:25.120 --> 0:41:28.120 And so the person with a with a virtual ball 0:41:28.160 --> 0:41:30.000 and It's like, number one, how is the person the 0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:31.960 real world? How do they feel that ball? He assist 0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:34.719 some vague shit about like haptic feedback, which doesn't work 0:41:34.760 --> 0:41:37.319 that way. Maybe there's a way if you're wearing like 0:41:37.360 --> 0:41:39.440 a glove, that it could trick you into believing you 0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:42.799 were hitting a ball or something. Um like like and 0:41:42.840 --> 0:41:46.480 not everyone's wearing headsets like it's we're just We'll get 0:41:46.520 --> 0:41:49.839 to that in part two, the headset question. Um, but 0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:52.600 what what what's interesting is that like a huge amount 0:41:52.640 --> 0:41:55.200 of the coolest stuff, the stuff that you can be like, well, 0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:57.319 that would be neat. Yeah. If I could fucking if 0:41:57.320 --> 0:42:00.360 I could fucking play pool with my friend in Germany 0:42:00.400 --> 0:42:01.880 and it would feel like we were both in the 0:42:01.920 --> 0:42:04.360 same room, um, even though only one of us is 0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:06.640 standing around a real pool table. Yeah, that would be 0:42:06.680 --> 0:42:10.240 an amazing feat of technology. It's never gonna happen. Um, 0:42:10.440 --> 0:42:12.480 certainly not in any kind of reasonable time for rame. 0:42:12.640 --> 0:42:14.840 Mark knows that all that is going to happen. It 0:42:14.960 --> 0:42:18.560 most is like a digital conference suite that like is 0:42:19.000 --> 0:42:22.640 damages people's eyes and brains. Um. And he knows that, 0:42:22.719 --> 0:42:24.840 but he's angry that Zoom beat him to the to 0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:27.560 the punch when the pandemic hit Um and this is 0:42:27.600 --> 0:42:30.040 his like, that's kind of one of the sinister things 0:42:30.080 --> 0:42:32.480 about it. Um. There's other sinister ship, which we'll talk 0:42:32.520 --> 0:42:36.120 about in part two. But you know what, guys, it's 0:42:36.160 --> 0:42:38.640 time to end part one. This is enough for part one. Well, 0:42:38.719 --> 0:42:42.600 we'll talk more about we'll talk about what's really frightening 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:44.520 about a lot of what Mark's trying to build in 0:42:44.600 --> 0:42:47.359 part two, But for right now, I want to talk 0:42:47.400 --> 0:42:59.800 about ending the episode, which I guess I just did. Goodbye. 0:43:00.160 --> 0:43:03.879 What grows in the forest trees? Sure, No, what else 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:07.440 grows in the forest, Our imagination, our sense of wonder, 0:43:07.800 --> 0:43:11.040 and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect 0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:17.719 from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. 0:43:18.440 --> 0:43:21.320 The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest 0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:24.920 near you and start exploring. I discover the Forest dot Org, 0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:27.840 brought to you by the United States Forest Service and 0:43:27.880 --> 0:43:31.719 the AD Council. Look to your children's eyes to see 0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:35.320 the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world 0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:38.399 for them. You look and see a tree, They see 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:41.640 the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to 0:43:41.680 --> 0:43:44.960 the sky. They see treasure and pebbles, they see a 0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:48.560 windy path that could lead to adventure, and they see you. 0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:53.120 They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find a forest 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:56.319 near you and start exploring and discover the forest dot org. 0:43:56.520 --> 0:43:58.640 Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and 0:43:58.640 --> 0:44:03.279 the ad Council. Black Effect Presents features honest conversations and 0:44:03.320 --> 0:44:07.440 exclusive interviews, a space for artists, everyday people, and listeners 0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:12.320 to amplify, elevate, and empower black voices with great conversations. 0:44:13.000 --> 0:44:15.520 Make sure to listen to the Black Effect Presents podcast 0:44:15.760 --> 0:44:18.919 on I Heart Radio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 0:44:18.960 --> 0:44:33.840 your podcast. Welcome back, It could happen here the show 0:44:33.960 --> 0:44:36.840 where we're talking right now about the metaverse that a 0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:38.920 bunch of rich people think that you're going to want 0:44:38.920 --> 0:44:43.040 to live in once they ruin the regular world. Um uh, 0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:47.520 and why it's dogshit and it is dogshit, so it's 0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:51.719 just it's just it's just total dogshit. Um. Everything about this, 0:44:51.920 --> 0:44:53.759 I don't know, seems like a waking nightmare to be 0:44:54.200 --> 0:44:56.120 to me so far if we're actually talking about like 0:44:56.160 --> 0:44:58.280 what they are, what they are immediately trying to because 0:44:58.280 --> 0:45:00.520 a bunch of this is aspirational nonsense that as we've 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:02.960 stated is like you are never going to play a 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:05.560 perfect game of basketball in a mix of real and 0:45:05.640 --> 0:45:08.520 a R courts with your friend in Hong Kong. Like 0:45:08.680 --> 0:45:13.239 that's never going to happen. Never. That's not how physics works. 0:45:13.280 --> 0:45:16.319 That's not how electronics works. Maybe when we find out 0:45:16.320 --> 0:45:18.799 how to literally hack the human brain, we can like 0:45:19.480 --> 0:45:23.320 put you into a quasi seizure state that that that 0:45:22.800 --> 0:45:26.000 that mimics that. But like the closest, the closest thing 0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:28.440 we have to this right now is actually uh VR 0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:31.000 board games is the best is the best example of this. 0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:33.360 Or you can play with you can play Settlers of 0:45:33.400 --> 0:45:36.040 Catan with your friend, a classic across the Yeah, and 0:45:36.080 --> 0:45:38.000 there's some cool ship you can do with haptics and 0:45:38.040 --> 0:45:40.480 haptic feedback is like the basic example of it is 0:45:40.480 --> 0:45:42.040 when you like touch your phone and your phone like 0:45:42.120 --> 0:45:44.080 vibrates under your hand to like let you know that 0:45:44.120 --> 0:45:47.080 you've you've touched like a command. Yeah, And there's there's 0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:48.880 people who think like at some point we would be 0:45:48.960 --> 0:45:51.400 we may be able to make using haptic feedback, like 0:45:51.800 --> 0:45:54.640 a virtual keyboard that feels like a real keyboard. That 0:45:54.719 --> 0:45:59.719 might be possible. That's still that's still like kind of 0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:02.360 like the idea of a keyboard that isn't there but 0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:07.120 feels like a real keyboard might that that's still on 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:09.879 the fringes of possibility, like this, The fucking ship they're 0:46:09.880 --> 0:46:13.120 showing in this video is like nonsense. We will have 0:46:13.280 --> 0:46:16.279 laser cannons before we have any of this bullshit, Like 0:46:16.560 --> 0:46:19.200 we will be shooting each other in space before we 0:46:19.280 --> 0:46:22.040 have this nonsense. Um, And thank god for that because 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:24.799 at least that sounds fun. So the actual center of 0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:26.920 what they've built in terms of the products that that 0:46:26.960 --> 0:46:30.759 Facebook is launching now for the metaverse, UM, the core 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:33.040 of it is Horizon Home and Horizon Worlds, And I 0:46:33.080 --> 0:46:35.040 think Horizon is kind of the brand they're going with 0:46:35.040 --> 0:46:39.640 for all of their different like meta programs. UM. Horizon 0:46:39.719 --> 0:46:42.080 Home is the home spaces thing that they discussed earlier 0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:44.920 where people can like make their own like houses. And 0:46:44.960 --> 0:46:46.560 one of the things they don't talk about in this 0:46:46.640 --> 0:46:48.359 they keep saying like you can build whatever you want, 0:46:48.400 --> 0:46:50.440 you can make it look like anything. They don't say 0:46:50.480 --> 0:46:53.520 a word about how like decorating your digital home is 0:46:53.520 --> 0:46:56.160 going to be monetized versus how much of it will 0:46:56.160 --> 0:46:58.879 be sweat equity. And again, like the smart thing would 0:46:58.880 --> 0:47:01.160 be make it all sweat equit, make it like Minecraft, 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:03.920 make people be able to build anything they can conceive 0:47:03.960 --> 0:47:06.200 of if they're actually creative enough and spend the time. 0:47:06.440 --> 0:47:09.359 They won't do that, um as they talk about in 0:47:09.400 --> 0:47:11.480 that like in the video they played like we're like, oh, 0:47:11.520 --> 0:47:14.239 this is a cool world. It was made by a developer. Like, yeah, 0:47:14.320 --> 0:47:16.840 you're gonna buy the cool ship. Um I don't. I 0:47:16.880 --> 0:47:18.520 don't know what you're gonna buy it, And it's gonna 0:47:18.520 --> 0:47:21.600 suck because all you can do is sit at a table. Yeah, 0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:24.560 and because like you can't go into bed, like you can't, 0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:27.320 Like all of this stuff is just cosmetic, like it's 0:47:27.520 --> 0:47:29.239 and you're not gonna be tricked into thinking it's real. 0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:32.800 I've I've been in cool VR like three D rooms 0:47:33.080 --> 0:47:37.120 and like they're cool to look at for like ten minutes. Yeah, 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:40.520 any boring. Yeah, Like it's you're like, oh, yeah, it's 0:47:40.520 --> 0:47:42.480 like the real world, but I can't touch anything. And 0:47:42.760 --> 0:47:45.239 when they show you the stuff that's closer to real, 0:47:45.360 --> 0:47:48.160 like the different like people chatting in the metaverse and whatever, 0:47:48.280 --> 0:47:50.439 it doesn't look fun. There's a there's a scene where 0:47:50.440 --> 0:47:54.480 they like show people like watching a YouTube video together 0:47:54.520 --> 0:47:56.839 in the metaverse, and they're all like these disembodied upper 0:47:56.920 --> 0:48:00.320 torsos because of course VR sets can't can't read your eggs, 0:48:00.560 --> 0:48:03.080 so it's like a bunch of torsos floating around a 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:06.879 maximized YouTube video window. And it's like, I would rather 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:09.560 just show a friend my phone. I would even rather 0:48:09.680 --> 0:48:13.680 text them a video and being in person with somebody 0:48:13.800 --> 0:48:16.200 watching on a on a phone or even but even 0:48:16.239 --> 0:48:18.440 even if without Like it's the kind I think that 0:48:18.480 --> 0:48:21.640 they're expecting that, Like everyone's kind of bummed when they 0:48:21.680 --> 0:48:24.480 send a friend video over signal or text and like 0:48:24.520 --> 0:48:26.560 wait for them. No, I would rather do that than 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:28.040 this ship. I don't want to hang out as a 0:48:28.040 --> 0:48:30.400 bunch of torsos around a YouTube We don't want have 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:33.239 to schedule of a VR session every time I want 0:48:33.239 --> 0:48:36.480 to share of YouTube video. No, that sounds horrible, and 0:48:36.520 --> 0:48:39.200 it sounds like I would constantly have to be in VR. 0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:41.200 Like he talks about how we're not trying to expand 0:48:42.040 --> 0:48:44.680 screen time, but like, am I just waiting around in 0:48:44.840 --> 0:48:48.280 VR to like show friends? YouTube are really unclear about 0:48:48.320 --> 0:48:51.120 how often you need to be in a headset, and 0:48:51.360 --> 0:48:53.960 it's it's kind of suspicious. It's almost like they don't 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:57.520 actually plan on doing anything. So I want to play 0:48:57.560 --> 0:48:59.520 another video that they claim to be a use case. 0:48:59.520 --> 0:49:02.280 And the way this video starts as like, this actual 0:49:02.480 --> 0:49:05.279 person is in an actual real world concert for some 0:49:05.320 --> 0:49:07.440 guy I've never heard of that Facebook. I think he's 0:49:07.480 --> 0:49:09.800 he's some clearly some sort of musician with a following 0:49:09.920 --> 0:49:12.640 Facebook hired to do a concert for this video. And 0:49:12.680 --> 0:49:14.680 she like calls her friend on the metaverse, and her 0:49:14.719 --> 0:49:18.120 friend digitally hops into the concert and they're like, the 0:49:18.160 --> 0:49:20.880 digital girl and the real girl are like dancing together 0:49:20.920 --> 0:49:23.480 at the show, which I don't know whatever, Like that 0:49:23.640 --> 0:49:27.120 is more possible than the basketball shit. Um, I mean yeah, 0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:30.480 watching of having a like a VR version of standing 0:49:30.520 --> 0:49:35.000 in a room where musician plays. Sure, I mean it's not. Yeah, yeah, 0:49:35.040 --> 0:49:37.239 I would debate like whether or not it's doable. But 0:49:37.280 --> 0:49:39.880 then after that they see, like during the concert, this 0:49:40.000 --> 0:49:41.879 like digital thing pops up. That's like, do you want 0:49:41.920 --> 0:49:45.040 to go to a free after party? Um? And first off, 0:49:45.080 --> 0:49:47.120 all of these after parties will cost money and they'll 0:49:47.120 --> 0:49:50.160 all be dogshit, but um, that's the same with most 0:49:50.200 --> 0:49:52.520 real after parties. So I guess that's that's at least 0:49:52.640 --> 0:49:59.320 Facebook accurately delivering on the promise of the real world. Um, 0:49:59.360 --> 0:50:02.000 but I want to play, Like what happens in this 0:50:02.239 --> 0:50:05.440 metaverse after party that these two both hop into digitally 0:50:05.480 --> 0:50:08.400 after one of them. So like as this starts, the 0:50:08.440 --> 0:50:10.440 lady who was actually at the concert like sits down 0:50:10.520 --> 0:50:17.080 at home and gets into the metaverse. Imagine your best 0:50:17.120 --> 0:50:22.919 friend is at a concert somewhere across the world. Uh oh, 0:50:24.160 --> 0:50:35.160 what if you could be there with her? Yeah? Yeah, real, yeah, 0:50:35.280 --> 0:50:37.920 real and clear? How that works? Yeah? Real quick? That 0:50:38.160 --> 0:50:41.120 was the first of the concert. See the holographic version. 0:50:41.120 --> 0:50:44.239 How the person see that, yeah, is wearing all that 0:50:44.800 --> 0:50:48.040 she's dancing? Is everyone wearing VR and seeing the world 0:50:48.040 --> 0:50:50.040 through VR? Because I'll tell you about Like right now, 0:50:50.080 --> 0:50:54.600 I'm I in our brain put on I put on 0:50:54.560 --> 0:50:56.920 an oculus as a joke, and right now I have 0:50:56.960 --> 0:50:58.799 it on the pass through, which means I can see 0:50:58.840 --> 0:51:01.320 the real world through my It was in the oculus. 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:04.319 And you know what it looks like? Shit, yeah, it's 0:51:04.320 --> 0:51:06.920 black and white. It's super grainy. I can't there has 0:51:07.000 --> 0:51:10.120 it has no like exposure range. Everything is like it's 0:51:10.120 --> 0:51:13.520 it's like you look like you're wearing a sunglasses case 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:17.759 in your look like the world, but like I can't 0:51:17.800 --> 0:51:20.640 do anything because it all is like a horrible digital 0:51:21.160 --> 0:51:24.160 like like I can't like it's not really like can 0:51:24.280 --> 0:51:26.799 do anything. Aspects of this one like at some point 0:51:26.800 --> 0:51:28.880 passed through mode will be in color and the latency 0:51:28.920 --> 0:51:32.520 will be low enough notice it right, like and there 0:51:32.560 --> 0:51:34.839 won't be late and seeing like yeah, but it'll but 0:51:34.880 --> 0:51:37.400 it's not gonna be still be with your human eyeball. 0:51:37.840 --> 0:51:40.000 It'll it'll still be a thing. So that girl is 0:51:40.040 --> 0:51:41.920 going to have to be at a concert dancing, getting 0:51:41.960 --> 0:51:45.080 super sweaty and like she's wearing something even if it's 0:51:45.120 --> 0:51:47.879 as small as like regular glasses and she's not like 0:51:48.560 --> 0:51:51.520 guess better, but it's more to the end. But like, 0:51:51.760 --> 0:51:54.960 if people are actually gonnaveloped this technology, the real way 0:51:54.960 --> 0:51:58.080 to do it is with a R, not not VR, 0:51:58.120 --> 0:51:59.840 because with a R, yeah, you could have put on 0:51:59.880 --> 0:52:03.120 like actual glasses and have like a person show up 0:52:03.160 --> 0:52:04.640 on the thing and make it look like they're there, 0:52:04.800 --> 0:52:07.239 well actually still seeing the real world. That's gonna be 0:52:07.280 --> 0:52:08.920 the way to do it. Yeah, And I think that 0:52:09.000 --> 0:52:11.200 there's what to do it. Yeah, I think that's what 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:13.719 they're like claiming here, but it's really unclear how it's 0:52:13.760 --> 0:52:15.520 all going to interface, how the a R is going 0:52:15.560 --> 0:52:18.440 to interface with like the full VR stuff, Like, are 0:52:18.440 --> 0:52:20.560 we going to have two separate sets of gear, one 0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:22.359 for when we're in the real world and we can't 0:52:22.400 --> 0:52:24.560 be fully immersive and one for when we want to 0:52:24.560 --> 0:52:27.279 dive into the metaverse to turn it around? Do we 0:52:27.280 --> 0:52:29.920 always carry it around wherever we go? Yeah, but I 0:52:30.200 --> 0:52:31.960 want to play the section. I sorry, I played the 0:52:32.000 --> 0:52:33.960 video where they were at the concert just because it 0:52:33.960 --> 0:52:35.640 it looks very silly. I want to play the section 0:52:35.640 --> 0:52:38.600 where they're at the after party because it's it's dystopian 0:52:38.680 --> 0:52:41.520 as fuck. So here's the all all metaverse after party 0:52:41.560 --> 0:52:44.760 that looks like a bunch of fucking connect avatars standing 0:52:44.800 --> 0:52:47.440 around and like a room made out of glowing neon 0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:50.439 the digital room. Yeah, nobody's drinking, which is the only 0:52:50.440 --> 0:52:51.960 good thing to do it in an after party that's 0:52:52.000 --> 0:52:54.680 not cocaine. So from from the jump, I'm like, well, 0:52:54.680 --> 0:52:57.120 what is the only good thing about an afterparty is 0:52:57.120 --> 0:52:59.720 if you want more drugs and all of the drugs 0:52:59.760 --> 0:53:03.319 plays are closed, maybe at the end you can hook 0:53:03.400 --> 0:53:07.279 up with a digital avatar. Yeah, it's anyway, I'm I'm 0:53:07.320 --> 0:53:12.239 just gonna play this dog shit where this is wild? 0:53:12.600 --> 0:53:17.000 Is it? Is it? They're just slowly Dancy's a giraffeman. 0:53:18.520 --> 0:53:24.000 Check this up charity for charity auction for n f 0:53:24.040 --> 0:53:28.759 T party that looks like ship your versions of your 0:53:28.760 --> 0:53:37.279 favorite song. Yeah, it looks dog ship. Yeah. So it's 0:53:37.320 --> 0:53:39.399 like it's it's a it's a horrible three D chat. 0:53:39.600 --> 0:53:42.640 We already have these these already against and they're not 0:53:42.760 --> 0:53:45.520 tons of fun on they're fun is when you're in 0:53:45.600 --> 0:53:48.160 first suits and you're walking around a fake city destroying it. 0:53:48.200 --> 0:53:50.960 That's the only fun way to do this. And the 0:53:51.000 --> 0:53:54.000 thing they're showing in this is that like an autographed 0:53:54.040 --> 0:53:57.520 poster for the concert um is an n f T 0:53:57.680 --> 0:53:59.719 that you can buy for a charity auction, and like 0:53:59.800 --> 0:54:02.200 as they're looking at it, the actual musician walks by 0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:04.279 and tells them it looks cool, and so they buy 0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:07.120 it and they have the musician come in for that 0:54:07.239 --> 0:54:09.600 number one to like try to make this kind of like, yeah, 0:54:09.600 --> 0:54:11.360 you'll be able to do these digital events where you 0:54:11.360 --> 0:54:14.480 can meet actual celebrities, which like, no, I'm sure celebrities 0:54:14.480 --> 0:54:16.400 will agree to do q Q and as in the 0:54:16.480 --> 0:54:18.600 multiverse like they do anywhere else. But they're not going 0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:21.959 to just walk around in some dogshit virtual part because 0:54:22.000 --> 0:54:24.160 they have money and they can do actual fun things 0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:27.279 in the actual real world. They're gonna be fucking supermodels 0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:31.160 while skiing down a mountain in Lake Tahoe because they're rich. Um, 0:54:31.200 --> 0:54:34.160 they're going to be like flying in their private jets 0:54:34.360 --> 0:54:38.359 or driving in a fucking yacht and eating lobster that's 0:54:38.400 --> 0:54:41.600 been tortured. So it tastes better because they're rich, like 0:54:41.960 --> 0:54:44.279 they're they're not going to be hanging out in a 0:54:44.360 --> 0:54:47.800 digital lobby telling you that a fucking dogshit poster in 0:54:47.960 --> 0:54:51.160 FT is cool and that you should buy it. Um, 0:54:51.239 --> 0:54:53.720 unless you're a millionaire and they want your money because 0:54:54.320 --> 0:54:56.439 they're Nicolas Cage and they have an addiction to buying 0:54:56.640 --> 0:55:02.520 Tarannosaurus parts. I don't know, it's it's silly, it's it's iculous. Um. Yeah. 0:55:02.719 --> 0:55:04.799 So one of the things that I thought about when 0:55:04.840 --> 0:55:08.760 I was watching this is like the concept of metaverse culture. Um, 0:55:08.800 --> 0:55:10.839 So like at some point, if this is a thing, 0:55:11.120 --> 0:55:13.520 there's going to be like, like, if there ever is 0:55:13.560 --> 0:55:16.360 a metaverse, people will develop a culture for it, just 0:55:16.400 --> 0:55:18.680 like they've developed a culture for Twitter, a culture for Reddit, 0:55:18.680 --> 0:55:21.040 a culture for Facebook, just as there were like internet 0:55:21.080 --> 0:55:25.920 culture or fantasy. Yeah, it happens with every community you 0:55:26.000 --> 0:55:29.880 make online. Um and and that's the thing, Like there's 0:55:29.920 --> 0:55:32.239 no I see no space in this thing that Mark 0:55:32.320 --> 0:55:36.640 Zuckerberg has envisioned as he is presenting it for organic 0:55:37.440 --> 0:55:40.240 evolution of None of the things that here are gonna 0:55:40.360 --> 0:55:42.600 make people want to form a culture around it because 0:55:42.640 --> 0:55:45.920 it's all it looks like. It looks like boring yuppie ship, 0:55:46.120 --> 0:55:47.840 all of it, but none of it is actually looks 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:51.080 cool or fun, and none of it, none of it 0:55:51.120 --> 0:55:52.759 is he's not talking about any of it with like 0:55:52.840 --> 0:55:55.680 the there's no there's no openness in it, Like there's 0:55:55.680 --> 0:55:58.400 no I don't see where a culture could evolve, and 0:55:58.480 --> 0:56:00.920 if one does, it's going to be directly like in 0:56:01.040 --> 0:56:06.719 opposition to Facebook moderation. Um like yeah, um well yeah, 0:56:06.760 --> 0:56:08.279 And I mean and there's there's an extense to which 0:56:08.360 --> 0:56:11.480 like they can't write because like if you actually let 0:56:11.560 --> 0:56:15.239 people just like do things, like imagine the griefing that's 0:56:15.239 --> 0:56:17.759 going to happen in one of these spaces, right, Like 0:56:18.000 --> 0:56:21.880 every person's avatar is going to be like sixteen thousand dogs, 0:56:22.440 --> 0:56:24.000 Like this is as literally this all it's gonna be 0:56:24.040 --> 0:56:25.880 like this is this is this is what twitch looks like, right, 0:56:25.960 --> 0:56:28.280 Like every Twitch chat is a guy posting a hydramate 0:56:28.320 --> 0:56:30.759 of dongs. Like it's like none of none of this 0:56:30.800 --> 0:56:32.960 can actually work if you let people do literally anything. 0:56:32.960 --> 0:56:35.439 If you don't let people do anything, like why would 0:56:35.480 --> 0:56:37.480 you're gonna want to do it? Yeah? Yeah, Like how 0:56:37.520 --> 0:56:39.200 how are you going to sell them this crap? Like 0:56:39.880 --> 0:56:42.560 once upon a time there was a game called Second Life. 0:56:42.560 --> 0:56:45.400 I guess it still exists, but we're talking. People talked 0:56:45.400 --> 0:56:47.439 about it the way they're talking about the metaverse now, 0:56:47.560 --> 0:56:50.440 and that became just like it was never that, but 0:56:50.480 --> 0:56:52.839 there was like this beautiful moment where this I think 0:56:52.960 --> 0:56:56.360 and she Chung was her name, Um, this like culture writer, 0:56:56.640 --> 0:57:00.240 kind of expert lady was like doing a Q and 0:57:00.000 --> 0:57:02.080 A and Second Life that was like build as being 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:05.600 this like big event for the platform that was going 0:57:05.640 --> 0:57:08.080 to like make people take it seriously. And a bunch 0:57:08.080 --> 0:57:10.719 of like users showed up and made a bunch of 0:57:10.760 --> 0:57:13.360 floating dicks like float through the room during the interview, 0:57:13.400 --> 0:57:15.239 so that like while this person was trying to talk 0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:18.320 seriously about Second Life, just like floating cocks we zooming 0:57:18.360 --> 0:57:21.720 past her head. The entire time, and it was extremely funny, 0:57:21.760 --> 0:57:24.360 and it's it's exactly the kind of thing like, yeah, Mark, 0:57:24.400 --> 0:57:25.840 that's what all of this is going to look like. 0:57:25.920 --> 0:57:28.120 Any mass event is going people will find a way 0:57:28.160 --> 0:57:30.720 to grief it um and that will in fact be 0:57:30.760 --> 0:57:32.680 the thing they most want to do. Is that will 0:57:32.720 --> 0:57:36.000 be the actual culture part is fucking with Facebook. Yeah, 0:57:36.080 --> 0:57:37.680 but you know, but that's the part about that that sucks. 0:57:37.680 --> 0:57:40.200 It's like, yeah, you know, it's like you're your anniversal 0:57:40.280 --> 0:57:42.000 reality thing, right, So like, okay, what are people going 0:57:42.040 --> 0:57:44.600 to do with a virtual reality? It's well, okay, you're 0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:46.960 gonna get You're gonna get a bunch of neo Nazis 0:57:47.000 --> 0:57:49.840 like figuring out a way to like show you just 0:57:49.880 --> 0:57:51.760 like the worst ship you've ever seen in your life. 0:57:51.800 --> 0:57:53.200 Like it's it's gonna it's gonna be all the stuff 0:57:53.200 --> 0:57:56.600 from the two thousands were like half of the Internet 0:57:56.720 --> 0:57:58.560 was just like a video. Why this is the thousand 0:57:58.600 --> 0:58:00.640 tends to like half of Twitter is just heading videos. 0:58:00.920 --> 0:58:05.160 Now in VR, it's like, yeas in the metaverse, it's 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:07.880 going to be amazing. Some of that's even already happening 0:58:07.920 --> 0:58:09.920 in like VR social media apps. I know of a 0:58:09.920 --> 0:58:13.520 few specific nazis involved in January six, who networked and 0:58:13.600 --> 0:58:18.200 met with people via of specifically VR chat. So like 0:58:18.240 --> 0:58:22.240 this is this is already a thing, um and making 0:58:22.240 --> 0:58:24.919 it broad and then like this small, you know, because 0:58:24.920 --> 0:58:27.320 the VR right now is mostly just a small subsect 0:58:27.440 --> 0:58:29.640 of like gaming culture right and people are into it 0:58:29.880 --> 0:58:32.200 because there is VR games that are cool, like like 0:58:32.200 --> 0:58:39.000 like Beat Saber is fun, right Um. In order for 0:58:39.040 --> 0:58:41.000 them to break this through into the mainstream, they need 0:58:41.040 --> 0:58:42.560 to make it appealing some way, and the only way 0:58:42.560 --> 0:58:45.640 they're making appealing right now is by doing meetings and 0:58:45.800 --> 0:58:48.760 like concerts. So the next part I Want to Play 0:58:48.840 --> 0:58:52.200 doesn't say a lot about the future marks trying to build, 0:58:52.240 --> 0:58:54.080 but it's very funny because it's him sitting down with 0:58:54.120 --> 0:58:56.640 a woman who works in his gaming department and she's 0:58:56.680 --> 0:58:58.840 walking him through like what games are going to be 0:58:58.880 --> 0:59:01.960 integrated into the Metal Verse, And it fucking reads like 0:59:02.040 --> 0:59:04.240 and I think you should leave sketch, Like it feels 0:59:04.320 --> 0:59:06.560 like a sketch where the joke is that everyone is 0:59:06.600 --> 0:59:09.560 awkward and not talking the way human beings talk. And 0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:12.280 in case you can't watch this chunk of the video 0:59:12.320 --> 0:59:15.480 and it starts at about like nineteen thirty four. Um 0:59:15.520 --> 0:59:18.320 in the actual Facebook video, all of the video games 0:59:18.360 --> 0:59:20.320 they're talking about, like look, Dogship, they look like the 0:59:20.400 --> 0:59:24.280 Kirkland brand of like popular like fighting games and FPS 0:59:24.360 --> 0:59:27.480 s and stuff. None of them look very good. Um, 0:59:27.520 --> 0:59:29.800 So I'm gonna play a clip from this because it's 0:59:29.880 --> 0:59:34.480 very funny. Can bailed out active communities. Beat Saber has 0:59:34.480 --> 0:59:40.360 a passionate community who do I and just passed million 0:59:40.400 --> 0:59:44.600 dollars and pressed around a great example of the game 0:59:44.680 --> 0:59:49.040 that releasing fresh content. They've actually been looking on evolving 0:59:49.080 --> 0:59:51.200 the way that you inter wrap with the tracks and 0:59:51.320 --> 0:59:55.080 feel the music. The way he's nodding in this, like 0:59:55.200 --> 0:59:58.640 his digital avatar looks more like a person. Well here's 0:59:58.640 --> 1:00:02.480 some Beat Saber. Yeah, yeah, it looks like regular Beats Saber. Yeah. 1:00:03.160 --> 1:00:07.880 But it's it's VR. It's it's already as VR. Yeah, 1:00:07.880 --> 1:00:10.320 it's already a VR game. You can't wait to play this, 1:00:10.920 --> 1:00:13.760 and you can already play an incredible artists to release 1:00:13.840 --> 1:00:16.000 new music cuts all the time. You can do this 1:00:16.080 --> 1:00:20.080 right now a little more than es been working more 1:00:20.120 --> 1:00:24.080 of this metaverse prison Tad, but oh god, every scene 1:00:24.080 --> 1:00:26.480 where she's talking to him and he's just like Bobblehead 1:00:26.560 --> 1:00:29.919 nodding just a little bit, but not like it's he looks. 1:00:30.720 --> 1:00:33.840 Mark actually will benefit from the metaverse, like outside of 1:00:33.840 --> 1:00:37.640 a financial thing, because a a sculpted three D representation 1:00:37.680 --> 1:00:39.880 of him will be a thousand times better. It looks 1:00:39.920 --> 1:00:42.959 more human than he looks like more of a person. Yeah, 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:45.640 it's I mean, it's just like he's scripted it badly 1:00:45.680 --> 1:00:47.240 and he's a narcissist, so he has to be the 1:00:47.280 --> 1:00:51.360 one to present it. Again, am I love beatsaber? Number one? 1:00:51.600 --> 1:00:53.960 If Steve Jobs were doing this number one, he wouldn't 1:00:53.960 --> 1:00:56.680 because he understood what people wanted from technology. But if 1:00:56.680 --> 1:00:59.040 he were doing something like this, he would introduce like 1:00:59.480 --> 1:01:01.400 little hunks of it and then he would have a 1:01:01.440 --> 1:01:04.840 famous person who's charismatic introduced the rest of it, like yeah, 1:01:04.880 --> 1:01:08.040 that's like it wouldn't be It wouldn't introduce how I'm 1:01:08.080 --> 1:01:11.200 sitting like a bobblehead listening, and he would introduced VR 1:01:11.440 --> 1:01:13.240 and a R into a way that actually integrats how 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:15.040 people use the Internet, all right, because there is ways 1:01:15.040 --> 1:01:17.680 that there is ways of doing this. It's not this 1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:24.640 like super monetized n f T like bullshit holographic fake stuff. Yeah, 1:01:24.680 --> 1:01:27.040 and there's there's aspects of this, like he goes through 1:01:27.080 --> 1:01:28.800 after this, like there's a bunch of gaming stuff, which 1:01:28.840 --> 1:01:31.240 is impossible for the reasons we've talked about. Then there's 1:01:31.280 --> 1:01:33.240 aspects of it that seemed cool, Like there's a scene 1:01:33.240 --> 1:01:36.840 where like an architect gets onto his digital office and 1:01:36.920 --> 1:01:41.240 like somebody sends him, uh, schematics to a building they're making, 1:01:41.240 --> 1:01:43.240 and he's able to generate a three D and walk 1:01:43.280 --> 1:01:46.600 around the building, Like Okay, that actually seems actually, it 1:01:46.640 --> 1:01:49.320 seems like useful, Like you've developed a use case for 1:01:49.360 --> 1:01:52.840 the all of the architects out there. It's it's I'm 1:01:52.920 --> 1:01:55.240 still not convinced that CAD would actually be better in 1:01:55.280 --> 1:01:59.080 three D than it would be like, sure, it's the bowl. 1:01:59.160 --> 1:02:02.640 I I think like it maybe someday, I think it 1:02:02.920 --> 1:02:06.040 could be. Like if you are one of the concreasingly 1:02:06.080 --> 1:02:08.439 small number of people who can afford to like build 1:02:08.440 --> 1:02:09.880 a house of your own, I can see why it 1:02:09.920 --> 1:02:11.360 would be neat to be like, Okay, well let's do 1:02:11.400 --> 1:02:12.680 a three D render of the house and I can 1:02:12.720 --> 1:02:14.480 walk through and I could maybe make changes at the 1:02:14.520 --> 1:02:16.840 last moment. As I'm kind of experienced that is that 1:02:16.920 --> 1:02:19.600 is definitely useful. Where a window is like, yeah, I 1:02:19.640 --> 1:02:23.160 can that that seems like something number one technologically you 1:02:23.160 --> 1:02:26.200 could do that more or less. Now, um, I don't 1:02:26.200 --> 1:02:28.000 think it's it's not gonna be as instantaneous as this, 1:02:28.080 --> 1:02:29.680 but if you give it time to render, it could 1:02:29.720 --> 1:02:32.360 be done. And it it's something that a number of 1:02:32.400 --> 1:02:35.000 people might find useful. But again that's a niche product 1:02:35.440 --> 1:02:39.040 because like eighteen people in our generation are frying homes. 1:02:39.160 --> 1:02:41.400 I mean yeah. And also it's it's it's expensive to 1:02:41.560 --> 1:02:45.200 develop because you would have just modeling an actual real 1:02:45.240 --> 1:02:48.800 life location is a lot of work. Um Now there 1:02:48.880 --> 1:02:50.440 is there is a lot of a lot of technology 1:02:50.440 --> 1:02:53.280 that's getting way better at it by machine um and 1:02:53.320 --> 1:02:56.680 like basically filming a space and and the community can 1:02:56.720 --> 1:02:59.600 reconstruct it pretty accurately. Um that that that is a 1:02:59.600 --> 1:03:01.600 growing field. But still it is is it's a very 1:03:01.960 --> 1:03:05.680 niche you know area at least a yeah, so I 1:03:06.120 --> 1:03:08.480 the thing that is so anyway, there's aspects of this 1:03:09.040 --> 1:03:12.320 that are ridiculous, aspects of this that seem neat, But 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:14.280 the longer you watch it, the thing that comes becomes 1:03:14.320 --> 1:03:20.400 really clear is that all he's really advertising is mass surveillance. Yeah, 1:03:20.440 --> 1:03:22.800 there's a point in this video where they're showing you 1:03:22.840 --> 1:03:25.640 how they can like map a real world location, so 1:03:25.680 --> 1:03:27.280 you can be in your actual house, put on your 1:03:27.360 --> 1:03:31.720 VR glasses, um, and it can map the your actual 1:03:31.840 --> 1:03:34.520 home digitally in real time. And as you and as 1:03:34.560 --> 1:03:37.320 you pick up real things in your house, you you 1:03:37.400 --> 1:03:40.040 see them being picked up in VR and presumably other 1:03:40.040 --> 1:03:42.000 people in the VR could see it. Which we are 1:03:42.080 --> 1:03:45.480 not quite there yet. I stay pretty in VR technology. 1:03:45.480 --> 1:03:47.400 We're getting close to this, but we're not. We're not 1:03:47.480 --> 1:03:49.640 quite there. I mean we're we're we're actually we actually 1:03:49.680 --> 1:03:52.040 are where what they show in the video. And I'm 1:03:52.040 --> 1:03:53.960 gonna play you a second from it because I want 1:03:53.960 --> 1:03:55.760 to show you something at least, I mean, like like 1:03:55.920 --> 1:03:59.040 consumer products. We're not We're not at this point yet. Yeah, 1:03:59.120 --> 1:04:03.480 and I want to show you, uh where we are 1:04:03.520 --> 1:04:06.080 because this video they're showing like actual footage. So they 1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:08.240 have built this thing. But there's a catch and so 1:04:08.280 --> 1:04:11.800 I'm just gonna play it right now out the researcher. 1:04:12.120 --> 1:04:15.160 So what's critical here is that this is all happening 1:04:15.200 --> 1:04:18.280 in real time. So if you I've just paused it, 1:04:18.280 --> 1:04:19.880 well you've got here. On one side, there's a woman 1:04:19.920 --> 1:04:23.200 in a real like house sitting and picking up like 1:04:23.760 --> 1:04:26.160 a toy home on her couch, and then on the 1:04:26.240 --> 1:04:28.400 left you see the VR version of her house, which 1:04:28.400 --> 1:04:30.800 looks close to photo realistic, and like the house that 1:04:30.840 --> 1:04:32.720 she's holding in the real world is floating in the 1:04:32.760 --> 1:04:34.920 same way that she's holding it, Like her body isn't there, 1:04:35.000 --> 1:04:37.240 like the stuff she's interacting with is. But if you 1:04:37.240 --> 1:04:39.280 look at the house she's holding, the reason that they're 1:04:39.320 --> 1:04:40.800 able to do this and it really does work is 1:04:40.800 --> 1:04:43.920 it's covered in censors. And and actually every single thing 1:04:44.000 --> 1:04:46.520 in the real house is covered in sensors because that's 1:04:46.560 --> 1:04:48.720 the only way for this to everything now moving is 1:04:48.720 --> 1:04:51.320 covered in sensors. Yeah, yeah, and it it is impressive, 1:04:51.360 --> 1:04:53.640 like as a proof of concept, like this, this is here, 1:04:53.680 --> 1:04:56.200 we can do this, but like it's still light years 1:04:56.200 --> 1:04:58.520 away from practical. And more to the point, when you 1:04:58.560 --> 1:05:01.000 look at this, you realize that, like, well, if this 1:05:01.080 --> 1:05:03.520 is ever going to work, the only way to make 1:05:03.560 --> 1:05:07.840 it work is for Facebook, through this service, to map 1:05:08.040 --> 1:05:13.240 your entire home in real time, every hour of all day. 1:05:13.440 --> 1:05:15.200 And they also go on to talk about like how 1:05:15.240 --> 1:05:17.520 you're going to have just your commands and like you'll 1:05:17.520 --> 1:05:19.600 be able to like make an expression or like a 1:05:19.600 --> 1:05:22.200 hand gesture and that will do things, which means that like, 1:05:23.080 --> 1:05:25.520 this service isn't just learning what's in your home and 1:05:25.560 --> 1:05:27.160 what you do with the things in your home. It's 1:05:27.200 --> 1:05:30.160 it's learning your facial expressions and your gestures and like 1:05:30.240 --> 1:05:34.080 what they mean and interpreting those at all times. I 1:05:34.080 --> 1:05:37.160 can kind of explain where oculus which is over Facebook. 1:05:37.160 --> 1:05:41.760 I think they're technically renaming Oculus spring to just calling 1:05:41.800 --> 1:05:45.800 it the metic quest. But what wait, wait, wait, the 1:05:45.960 --> 1:05:48.320 medical quest that that that's that's what they're calling it 1:05:48.360 --> 1:05:52.560 instead of instead of oculacies. Um, so where where that 1:05:52.760 --> 1:05:57.360 right now? Is basically, uh, the only kind of real 1:05:57.400 --> 1:06:01.080 world interactivity that they have for their our headsets. Again 1:06:01.120 --> 1:06:02.800 for like the consumer models, I don't know, it's in 1:06:02.840 --> 1:06:06.240 length development. Um is hand tracking. This this is the 1:06:06.280 --> 1:06:07.680 thing they've been working on for a long time. Is 1:06:07.720 --> 1:06:10.240 that you put on the headset and the camera like 1:06:10.320 --> 1:06:13.120 the cameras and depth sensors built into the headset can 1:06:13.120 --> 1:06:15.240 see your hands and like you said, you have like 1:06:15.360 --> 1:06:17.960 gesture controls where you can do certain things in your 1:06:17.960 --> 1:06:20.280 hand and it will make certain things happen. This is 1:06:20.280 --> 1:06:24.360 the only interactivity that that we have. It's okay, it's 1:06:24.400 --> 1:06:26.440 not perfect, like it's it is. It is better than 1:06:26.440 --> 1:06:28.960 a lot of the other hand tracking systems from other companies, 1:06:29.160 --> 1:06:31.200 but like it's it's it is very much a work 1:06:31.240 --> 1:06:34.640 in progress. UM. And the way to make this work 1:06:34.760 --> 1:06:37.800 is by is very good depth sensing cameras, which I 1:06:37.840 --> 1:06:39.680 think Apple makes some of the best ones right now 1:06:39.760 --> 1:06:42.160 that they put into the iPhone. Uh. The other way 1:06:42.160 --> 1:06:44.840 of doing this is with lighthouses. So this is like 1:06:45.120 --> 1:06:49.960 separate um separate like uh, separate cameras that you set 1:06:50.000 --> 1:06:53.320 up around the corners of your house that project different 1:06:53.320 --> 1:06:56.040 like wavelengths of light and they get it received back, 1:06:56.080 --> 1:06:58.720 so they can map your house UM with not just 1:06:58.840 --> 1:07:02.280 cameras but also like in like infrared sensors and that 1:07:02.320 --> 1:07:03.920 kind of thing. So these are these are like the 1:07:03.960 --> 1:07:06.960 two methods of doing it. Facebook is really trying to 1:07:07.000 --> 1:07:10.560 go full on, full on to the everything is built 1:07:10.560 --> 1:07:13.760 into the headset thing. So no so no, like lighthouses, 1:07:13.800 --> 1:07:17.680 everything is just depth depth sensing cameras. So that's why 1:07:17.720 --> 1:07:19.440 they're working on hand tracking so much, because that's something 1:07:19.440 --> 1:07:22.320 you can actually do. But like, I can't pick up anything, um, 1:07:22.640 --> 1:07:25.120 Like the only thing I can pick up is my controllers, 1:07:25.120 --> 1:07:27.640 which because they they have censors built in. They can 1:07:27.680 --> 1:07:30.120 be rendered in the actual game the same way like 1:07:30.280 --> 1:07:33.120 my hand can be. So that that that's where they're at. 1:07:33.240 --> 1:07:36.000 For that for the consumer products get more than it's 1:07:36.000 --> 1:07:38.360 getting developed. Again, where they're at. You think about what 1:07:38.400 --> 1:07:40.680 Facebook has already done with the information you provided, and 1:07:40.720 --> 1:07:44.640 how so much of their money comes from selling your data. Um. 1:07:44.760 --> 1:07:47.480 The only way for this to work that they've they've 1:07:47.480 --> 1:07:51.760 passed are always watching everything, every moment of your existence, 1:07:51.840 --> 1:07:54.919 including like your micro expressions, which is why I keep 1:07:55.080 --> 1:07:59.560 my oculence in the tiny little box here. And here's 1:07:59.560 --> 1:08:02.680 the thing. If they were to actually develop the technology, 1:08:02.720 --> 1:08:07.400 which I don't think is impossible, although it's not particularly close, UM, 1:08:07.440 --> 1:08:09.680 it's not going to be cheap to store all that. 1:08:10.120 --> 1:08:12.960 So in order to make it a tile outside, well, 1:08:12.960 --> 1:08:14.360 it's going to be cloud based. But in order to 1:08:14.360 --> 1:08:20.280 make it like cloud isn't free, UM subscription probably, I 1:08:20.640 --> 1:08:22.960 think you'll pay some, but I think in order to 1:08:23.080 --> 1:08:26.280 make it affordable, UM, so that more people are on it, 1:08:26.439 --> 1:08:29.479 they're just going to sell your data in a way 1:08:29.520 --> 1:08:32.000 that has never been in a and and the government 1:08:32.000 --> 1:08:35.120 will have access to it like it is. It's actually 1:08:35.400 --> 1:08:38.040 like the thing that he is actually proposing here is 1:08:38.080 --> 1:08:41.040 I want to build a machine god that knows your sins, 1:08:41.120 --> 1:08:44.840 like that knows when your heart rate is elevated, like 1:08:44.960 --> 1:08:48.559 before you smile. That can predict like when you're about 1:08:48.680 --> 1:08:51.840 to make a gesture or laugh because it is so 1:08:51.920 --> 1:08:57.200 accurately mapped your body and motions. Um, it's actually a nightmare. 1:08:57.280 --> 1:08:59.559 Like when you really think about what he is trying 1:08:59.600 --> 1:09:01.760 to build here and it's like, well, what, what's what 1:09:01.880 --> 1:09:04.799 what's the actual use case for this? And it's like, well, okay, 1:09:04.800 --> 1:09:06.719 so you have you have a bunch of special forces guys, 1:09:06.760 --> 1:09:08.720 you put them in a VR thing and then you 1:09:08.760 --> 1:09:10.280 know you can you can you can you can have 1:09:10.320 --> 1:09:12.320 them drill on knowing exactly where all the rooms in 1:09:12.320 --> 1:09:14.760 the houses and where everyone is in where everyone is 1:09:14.800 --> 1:09:18.000 in a house any given time. It's like, oh, hey, 1:09:18.000 --> 1:09:21.000 this this is gonna be great. This is yeah, it's 1:09:21.000 --> 1:09:24.400 it's great. Yeah, it's it's really cool. Um, they have 1:09:24.479 --> 1:09:27.400 a So there is a little bit here briefly about 1:09:27.520 --> 1:09:31.320 where like Mark talks about how the last year or 1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:35.080 so has been um fucking uh. The term he uses 1:09:35.160 --> 1:09:39.360 is humbling for them. Oh god, yeah, and you you 1:09:39.439 --> 1:09:42.200 kind of think that like he's about to say that, like, oh, 1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:47.240 because we we made life dramatically worse and our service 1:09:47.320 --> 1:09:50.880 was integral in several ethnic cleansings and a couple of 1:09:50.920 --> 1:09:54.280 civil wars and like hate crimes on a scale that 1:09:54.400 --> 1:09:57.760 was unimaginable before it really came into being, or that 1:09:57.800 --> 1:09:59.599 we thought had been at least we thought had been 1:09:59.600 --> 1:10:02.160 consigned into a century or so ago before Facebook came 1:10:02.200 --> 1:10:05.080 into being. But no, that's not why it's humbling. Why 1:10:05.120 --> 1:10:07.559 he says it's been humbling is that Facebook has been 1:10:07.560 --> 1:10:10.599 developing services for other platforms like the App Store, where 1:10:10.600 --> 1:10:13.280 they don't have total control, and that sucks. And that's 1:10:13.320 --> 1:10:15.479 like the thing that that's the that's him admitting a 1:10:15.479 --> 1:10:16.960 little bit that like a big part of this is 1:10:17.000 --> 1:10:19.720 they're trying to build a service the entire Internet gets 1:10:19.760 --> 1:10:22.599 filtered through that they completely control, so that they are 1:10:22.640 --> 1:10:27.040 never in anyone else's wheelhouse, like everything is done through Facebook. 1:10:27.040 --> 1:10:29.080 And with Facebook's approval as opposed to them, they want 1:10:29.120 --> 1:10:33.960 to face Facebook. Facebook is going to become the state. Yeah, 1:10:34.000 --> 1:10:36.719 And that's the thing that it says so much about 1:10:36.840 --> 1:10:39.400 Mark that he's like, what's humbling, isn't all of the 1:10:39.439 --> 1:10:42.200 mistakes I've made it's that periodically I have not had 1:10:42.240 --> 1:10:46.960 total control. Um. It's great. Um. He then from immediately 1:10:47.000 --> 1:10:48.920 from this says that if we all work at it, 1:10:49.360 --> 1:10:51.599 all of us, the metaverse can reach a billion people 1:10:51.640 --> 1:10:57.440 by the next decade. Um, which is very funny. Um 1:10:57.479 --> 1:11:00.360 that he thinks that that's like an enticing fuck thing. 1:11:01.000 --> 1:11:04.920 So one of the use cases they try to present 1:11:05.000 --> 1:11:07.120 is they have a beauty influencer who like made like 1:11:07.439 --> 1:11:10.760 a fucking candle line or something, uh, that she's sold 1:11:10.760 --> 1:11:13.200 on Instagram and she's she's very successful in Instagram. They 1:11:13.200 --> 1:11:15.360 bring this lady in number one. As soon as they 1:11:15.360 --> 1:11:18.400 started interviewing her, it's it's it's what I was saying about. 1:11:18.439 --> 1:11:20.360 You have a hire a celebrity to do this mark, 1:11:20.360 --> 1:11:23.360 you're not charismatic. She's immediately the most engaging person in 1:11:23.400 --> 1:11:26.120 the entire presentation because she's a successful in like she's 1:11:26.160 --> 1:11:29.240 someone who understands how she appears on camera, how to 1:11:29.320 --> 1:11:32.360 make herself seem likable on camera, how to like interact 1:11:32.400 --> 1:11:34.600 with the world on a camera, and nobody else in 1:11:34.600 --> 1:11:37.920 this video understands that. Um, which is just funny. It's 1:11:37.920 --> 1:11:40.240 not particularly like say anything other than that, like, you 1:11:40.400 --> 1:11:44.679 have professionals do difficult things. Mark, don't don't hire your weird, 1:11:44.720 --> 1:11:47.920 gawky engineering staff to like be the faces of this thing. 1:11:48.240 --> 1:11:51.120 They're not good at this, and neither are you. I 1:11:51.160 --> 1:11:52.680 just want to point out. So he said that, like 1:11:53.280 --> 1:11:55.840 he can get one billion people the next decade. So 1:11:55.880 --> 1:11:59.679 far there's only been sixteen million Vier headsets sold. Ever. Yeah, 1:12:00.200 --> 1:12:02.960 so getting that to the point of a billion it 1:12:03.040 --> 1:12:06.680 seems like quite quite the challenge. I mean, it is 1:12:06.720 --> 1:12:09.320 a challenge, but you could look at like how quickly 1:12:09.360 --> 1:12:12.960 smartphones went from Yeah, except smartphones were useful in improving 1:12:12.960 --> 1:12:15.840 the world in very obvious ways, whereas the metaverse and 1:12:15.840 --> 1:12:17.800 even v our in general doesn't improve the world for 1:12:17.880 --> 1:12:20.240 most people in obvious ways. Yeah, but that that's kind 1:12:20.240 --> 1:12:22.320 of what I'm saying, is that, like the thing that 1:12:22.479 --> 1:12:25.000 is stupid and doomed about this isn't like, oh, you 1:12:25.000 --> 1:12:26.920 would have to sell so many headsets. If it was 1:12:27.040 --> 1:12:30.680 legitimately something every single person wanted on their head, they 1:12:30.680 --> 1:12:32.439 would sell a billion. They would sell a billion in 1:12:32.439 --> 1:12:35.000 a couple of years, you know. Um, but they haven't 1:12:35.360 --> 1:12:38.680 made that. Look like like, so this this beauty influencer 1:12:38.720 --> 1:12:40.960 thing is an example of them trying to like explain 1:12:41.400 --> 1:12:44.880 here's something that people will find cool about the metaverse. Um, 1:12:44.920 --> 1:12:46.360 and the way they do it is like talking about 1:12:46.400 --> 1:12:48.800 how you can have a digital storefront where like people 1:12:48.840 --> 1:12:51.800 can't just buy products, but they can interact with you. Um. 1:12:51.880 --> 1:12:53.519 She talks about how it will be good for letting 1:12:53.520 --> 1:12:55.559 her interact with their fans, but like bringing them into 1:12:55.600 --> 1:13:01.200 my home, which sounds like we love our fans, but like, no, 1:13:01.479 --> 1:13:06.439 I do not want anyone from adam home. UM. I 1:13:06.560 --> 1:13:08.880 barely want my friends in my home half the time. 1:13:09.479 --> 1:13:13.160 Absolutely not. Um. They didn't present us with a use 1:13:13.240 --> 1:13:15.679 case of how a brand in this case, this candle 1:13:15.720 --> 1:13:17.920 company this lady made that's big on Instagram could release 1:13:17.960 --> 1:13:20.760 like a new candle flavor and launch a digital experience 1:13:20.800 --> 1:13:23.360 with it so you can buy both real and digital products. 1:13:23.680 --> 1:13:25.479 It's kind of unclear in the video whether or not 1:13:25.520 --> 1:13:27.840 you're paying for the digital experience or is it like 1:13:27.960 --> 1:13:31.200 free when you buy the candle. Um. Yeah, it's like, 1:13:31.240 --> 1:13:33.479 I don't games is like developing. It is like you know, 1:13:33.560 --> 1:13:36.559 dropping products at the same time in the real world 1:13:36.680 --> 1:13:38.600 in the digital world, but like the digital version is 1:13:38.640 --> 1:13:40.519 free because it's like because it's like an ad right, 1:13:40.600 --> 1:13:43.800 you could try something out virtually before you buy it physically. 1:13:44.080 --> 1:13:46.519 And that's what like Epic Games is doing. And honestly, 1:13:46.520 --> 1:13:49.839 I think epics version of the Metavors is slightly more hinged. 1:13:50.240 --> 1:13:53.160 They understand more what people actually want. Yeah, because like 1:13:53.160 --> 1:13:55.400 all the stuff they're trying with Fortnite again, it doesn't 1:13:55.400 --> 1:13:57.479 seem fun for me, but at least it's like an 1:13:57.479 --> 1:14:01.480 extension of how people use the Internet already has. Facebook's 1:14:01.640 --> 1:14:05.640 is not that Yeah. And and Mark never really understood 1:14:05.680 --> 1:14:09.560 what people wanted. He he accidentally did basically want to 1:14:09.640 --> 1:14:12.200 make something else, Like he wanted a place to share 1:14:12.360 --> 1:14:15.120 pictures of ladies he thought was hot. Um, and he 1:14:15.160 --> 1:14:17.519 accidentally built a thing that like gave people something they 1:14:17.520 --> 1:14:19.240 did one, which was a way to stay in contact 1:14:19.320 --> 1:14:21.240 with their friends from high school in college as they 1:14:21.280 --> 1:14:23.759 grew older, right, Like that was the thing about Facebook 1:14:23.800 --> 1:14:26.639 that made it get huge originally. Um. And he hasn't 1:14:26.720 --> 1:14:29.559 learned anything since he's just been smart. He's he's hired 1:14:29.560 --> 1:14:31.479 people who are smart enough to be like, hey, Instagram 1:14:31.600 --> 1:14:32.920 is probably going to be a big deal by that, 1:14:33.760 --> 1:14:36.639 you know, Um like that that, but I haven't seen 1:14:36.960 --> 1:14:40.400 anything that's made me think like Mark gets what people 1:14:40.520 --> 1:14:42.240 want and this has just made it clear that like 1:14:42.280 --> 1:14:44.439 he absolutely doesn't. So I want to play this video 1:14:44.520 --> 1:14:47.160 of like this is the digital experience to go with 1:14:47.200 --> 1:14:50.040 this fucking candle that they're they're framing is like a 1:14:50.040 --> 1:14:52.479 piece of art that everybody's gonna want to interact with 1:14:52.479 --> 1:14:56.880 who likes candles. It's it's incredible because it again feels 1:14:56.880 --> 1:14:59.160 like a nightmare. I am. I am a big candle fan. 1:14:59.280 --> 1:15:03.880 So him here, what iFly effect to transports us something 1:15:03.920 --> 1:15:13.040 to magic? It's like a shitty arborretum. I don't do 1:15:13.160 --> 1:15:15.960 what it has to do with candles. It's Jackie, as 1:15:15.960 --> 1:15:20.080 we walked in this amazing world. What I just feel 1:15:20.160 --> 1:15:24.160 like this is like endless possibilities of my imaginations. I 1:15:24.200 --> 1:15:27.640 can't even begin to imagine. But I don't understand what 1:15:27.760 --> 1:15:31.040 has that to do with candles? Yeah, like they have again, 1:15:31.400 --> 1:15:34.439 like there's I can walk around, like why can't I 1:15:34.720 --> 1:15:36.600 can to imagine all the things people are going to 1:15:36.760 --> 1:15:39.320 I can walk around digital spaces and my quest it's 1:15:39.320 --> 1:15:41.400 again it's fun for like thirty seconds and then you 1:15:41.439 --> 1:15:43.000 see everything and you're like, well, I can't touch it 1:15:43.120 --> 1:15:45.000 or smell it or actually feel it or do anything. 1:15:45.120 --> 1:15:47.080 So I'm gonna go back and have a soda and 1:15:47.479 --> 1:15:49.639 I don't know, yeah, play and like read a book 1:15:49.720 --> 1:15:53.240 or something. And they've brought in this influencer who like 1:15:53.640 --> 1:15:55.640 used one of their other services in a way they 1:15:55.640 --> 1:15:58.320 hadn't initially intended and was successful in that, which is 1:15:58.320 --> 1:16:00.599 not a bad idea in its surface, Like, yeah, bring 1:16:00.600 --> 1:16:03.960 in creative people and let them play around and make 1:16:04.040 --> 1:16:06.800 something new to show people how exciting this is. Right, 1:16:07.080 --> 1:16:09.400 that's the smart thing to do. But all they've presented 1:16:09.479 --> 1:16:12.280 is like, look, it's a tiny little weird arboretum. You 1:16:12.280 --> 1:16:15.320 can walk around and after buying a candle, and it's like, well, 1:16:15.560 --> 1:16:18.320 I like candles, but that's not fun. That doesn't sound 1:16:18.400 --> 1:16:21.479 like an addition candle. Part of the metaverse is like 1:16:21.560 --> 1:16:25.280 making like interactivity more like being able to interact with 1:16:25.720 --> 1:16:28.280 with digital things, and like that's not interacting. That's just 1:16:28.320 --> 1:16:31.400 walking around like unless I can like take of like 1:16:31.520 --> 1:16:35.120 a bazooka and blow up our like the candle. You know, 1:16:35.920 --> 1:16:39.320 Like that's like you have to do something like all 1:16:39.360 --> 1:16:41.519 of the VR games that are fun, like like like 1:16:41.520 --> 1:16:43.599 like like a super Hot or something like something that's 1:16:43.600 --> 1:16:46.160 about you know, picking up objects in VR and throwing 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:49.800 them at people. That's fun and you like, also, unless 1:16:49.840 --> 1:16:51.599 I can pick up this candle and it's all people 1:16:51.600 --> 1:16:53.439 with it in the game, I don't see what really 1:16:53.479 --> 1:16:56.760 the dry like, what's what's exciting about this? You were 1:16:56.760 --> 1:17:00.160 saying something, Chris, Oh, I guess you know that thing 1:17:00.160 --> 1:17:01.720 I keep coming back to with this is it the 1:17:01.760 --> 1:17:03.720 only way this and this literally any of this makes 1:17:03.760 --> 1:17:05.479 any sense if it's just like a chip in your 1:17:05.479 --> 1:17:08.560 brain just because all of it, all of it is 1:17:08.560 --> 1:17:10.120 built around that. But it's but it's not like it 1:17:10.200 --> 1:17:12.200 can't be like we don't the technology for that won't 1:17:12.200 --> 1:17:14.320 exist for like ages and so there it's like it's 1:17:14.400 --> 1:17:16.800 it's like they're they're selling some of it definitely is 1:17:16.880 --> 1:17:20.240 headset based, like that arboretum thing, but a lot of it. 1:17:20.400 --> 1:17:22.719 But even yeah, but like I mean I think even 1:17:22.760 --> 1:17:25.719 that right, like okay, so why would you want like yeah, 1:17:25.760 --> 1:17:27.800 you're if you're saying, like why would you It's like, Okay, 1:17:27.800 --> 1:17:31.360 it's interesting for like ten minutes, right. The only way 1:17:31.439 --> 1:17:33.000 that would be like the only way that would be 1:17:33.000 --> 1:17:35.080 an actually interesting experience is if you could get all 1:17:35.120 --> 1:17:37.680 the false century experience you can smell and feel yeah, right, 1:17:37.720 --> 1:17:39.200 and that that's that's that's like, that's that's the thing 1:17:39.240 --> 1:17:40.880 where like something only makes sense if it's like a 1:17:40.880 --> 1:17:42.559 brain ship. Well, I mean there's there's two versions. There's 1:17:42.560 --> 1:17:44.160 one it's a brain ship, or two it's a video game. 1:17:44.600 --> 1:17:46.240 And at the game is doing the thing where it's 1:17:46.240 --> 1:17:49.920 a video game, and that's slightly Mary Yeah, yeah, but 1:17:50.000 --> 1:17:52.800 like they don't you know, but they're they're trying to 1:17:52.880 --> 1:17:55.479 sell like and I think part of what's going on 1:17:55.479 --> 1:17:58.120 here is also just like this is this is designed 1:17:58.320 --> 1:18:02.040 to like like this is designed to like trick Silicon 1:18:02.160 --> 1:18:06.840 Valley investors. Yes, that is like yeah, and those people, 1:18:07.000 --> 1:18:08.760 I think are just gonna be like, oh well, we'll 1:18:08.760 --> 1:18:10.720 have brain ships eventually, and so we'll just we'll talk 1:18:10.720 --> 1:18:12.880 about probably talk about that part more at the end, 1:18:12.880 --> 1:18:15.280 because yeah, this is just a scam. This is just 1:18:15.320 --> 1:18:17.920 a scam. And it is like again to talk about 1:18:17.960 --> 1:18:20.280 like the dystopian aspects of this, Chris, as you brought up. 1:18:20.320 --> 1:18:23.280 One of the aspects is that like it's a complete 1:18:23.280 --> 1:18:26.040 panopticon of perfect surveillance if they actually make this thing, 1:18:26.080 --> 1:18:28.200 and number two is the only way to do most 1:18:28.240 --> 1:18:31.000 of what they're talking about that's cool is to give 1:18:31.040 --> 1:18:34.760 Mark Zuckerberg physical control over human beings brain chemistry on 1:18:34.760 --> 1:18:37.360 a global scale, which I think it is a bad idea. 1:18:37.400 --> 1:18:41.360 Not Gonn for that. I don't I don't want to 1:18:41.400 --> 1:18:45.240 walk around in a weird candle room that badly. Like 1:18:45.680 --> 1:18:47.519 to your point Chris about like how it's you know, 1:18:47.840 --> 1:18:50.679 there's no sensory stuff. Is like like the most popular 1:18:50.800 --> 1:18:53.320 VR games, the reason why they work so well, there's 1:18:53.320 --> 1:18:55.200 why that they don't, like Break the Uncanny Valley is 1:18:55.200 --> 1:18:57.080 because you're in like a barren land, like you know, 1:18:57.240 --> 1:18:59.519 thet Saber. You're not in a place you know you're 1:18:59.600 --> 1:19:01.160 in the in the game in the face for like 1:19:01.439 --> 1:19:07.320 for Super Hot, you're in like whitewashed abstract like concrete spaces, right, 1:19:07.360 --> 1:19:09.280 so like there's nothing, there is nothing to smell or 1:19:09.320 --> 1:19:11.639 feels like you don't feel like you're missing anything because 1:19:11.640 --> 1:19:14.040 you're in a very like stripped down version of reality. 1:19:14.400 --> 1:19:16.840 There is a really good of your game. I forget 1:19:16.840 --> 1:19:18.200 what it's called, but it's it's based on like an 1:19:18.200 --> 1:19:20.640 office and you're like fighting robots to break out of 1:19:20.640 --> 1:19:23.759 like this capitalist office room. And it's cool because like, yeah, 1:19:23.840 --> 1:19:25.880 it's miserable because it's like it's like an office space. 1:19:25.920 --> 1:19:27.920 You feel like you're in an office because it's nothing 1:19:27.920 --> 1:19:30.280 about it's exciting right there. Games that are in like 1:19:30.439 --> 1:19:34.599 lush worlds, they feel so much more like disconnected because 1:19:34.600 --> 1:19:35.760 you have like a weird like you have, you have 1:19:35.800 --> 1:19:38.040 like you have like an uncanny valley thing, but instead 1:19:38.080 --> 1:19:40.280 of like a face or a person, it's like an environment. 1:19:40.960 --> 1:19:42.519 We're running law on time. I want to move to 1:19:42.560 --> 1:19:44.840 something that I think is important here, which is there 1:19:44.920 --> 1:19:46.840 is one moment in this video where they try to 1:19:46.840 --> 1:19:49.720 address the fact that they've done a tremendous amount of 1:19:49.800 --> 1:19:52.680 damage to the world and they have repeatedly failed to 1:19:52.840 --> 1:19:56.800 like uh anticipate dangers that their services have, so they 1:19:56.800 --> 1:19:58.240 need to like deal with that at some point. And 1:19:58.280 --> 1:20:00.000 this is like, well, what about if, like what about 1:20:00.080 --> 1:20:02.160 bad things that could happen? What if like what about 1:20:02.200 --> 1:20:04.240 like unintended things? What about like ways in which this 1:20:04.280 --> 1:20:06.800 could be harmful to society that you haven't foreseen. So, 1:20:07.120 --> 1:20:10.080 because they're not completely stupid, in order to address that, 1:20:10.120 --> 1:20:13.559 they bring on a well dressed uh or not well dressed, 1:20:13.560 --> 1:20:16.320 but they bring on like a friendly British man who 1:20:16.400 --> 1:20:18.920 kind of kind of reads as like a like a 1:20:18.960 --> 1:20:22.040 scientific kind of expert guy. They bring on a charming 1:20:22.040 --> 1:20:24.519 British person to like talk about how they're going to 1:20:24.600 --> 1:20:27.679 not not destroy the world, and this is very telling 1:20:28.560 --> 1:20:31.320 so far. It's it's such visionary stuff. But as you 1:20:31.360 --> 1:20:35.120 mentioned early on, with all big technological advances, there are 1:20:35.240 --> 1:20:38.800 inevitably going to be in all sorts of challenges and uncertainties. 1:20:38.840 --> 1:20:41.680 And I know you've talked about this a bit already, 1:20:41.720 --> 1:20:43.600 but people want to know how we're going to do 1:20:43.680 --> 1:20:46.680 all this in a responsible way, and especially that we 1:20:46.720 --> 1:20:49.320 play our part in helping to keep people safe and 1:20:49.360 --> 1:20:53.559 protect their privacy online. Yeah, that's right, this is incredibly important. 1:20:53.960 --> 1:20:56.280 The way I look at it is that in the past, 1:20:56.320 --> 1:21:00.599 the speed that new technologies emerged sometimes left Polish makers 1:21:00.600 --> 1:21:03.800 and regulators playing catch up. So on the one hand, 1:21:04.080 --> 1:21:07.000 companies get accused of charging ahead too quickly, and on 1:21:07.040 --> 1:21:10.120 the other, tech people feel that progress can't afford to 1:21:10.160 --> 1:21:13.880 wait for the slower pace of regulation. And I really 1:21:13.920 --> 1:21:16.000 think that it doesn't have to be the case this 1:21:16.040 --> 1:21:19.120 time around, because we have years until the metaverse we 1:21:19.240 --> 1:21:22.439 envision is fully realized. So this is the start of 1:21:22.439 --> 1:21:27.519 the journey, not the end. So that's telling uh that 1:21:27.640 --> 1:21:30.439 he's like, we don't need to worry about like we 1:21:30.479 --> 1:21:35.200 don't need it. Like it'll be it'll get regulated properly, 1:21:35.240 --> 1:21:37.080 it'll be safe enough because it's going to take so 1:21:37.120 --> 1:21:39.559 long to figure all this out that surely we will 1:21:39.600 --> 1:21:42.559 anticipate and deal with all of the potentially toxic side 1:21:42.560 --> 1:21:45.640 effects of this technology ahead of time. Um. And if 1:21:45.680 --> 1:21:47.479 you believe that, I would say, take a look at 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:51.600 Facebook's track record with that kind of thing. Um, But 1:21:51.680 --> 1:21:54.000 they are smart and having a charming British man do it, 1:21:54.040 --> 1:21:57.080 that's the right guy to have in the only aspect 1:21:57.120 --> 1:21:58.960 of good casting in this That is the right guy 1:21:59.000 --> 1:22:01.360 to have come on and try to allay people's fears 1:22:02.160 --> 1:22:04.720 that this will destroy society. You bring you bring a 1:22:04.760 --> 1:22:06.720 charming British man in, you know, that's how you do 1:22:06.800 --> 1:22:10.360 that kind of thing. Um, that's when I get canceled 1:22:10.400 --> 1:22:13.160 for the things I've been doing overseas. Um, I'm gonna 1:22:13.240 --> 1:22:15.840 hire a British person to defend myself. Do they make 1:22:15.840 --> 1:22:18.759 any more comments about like a R glasses or VR 1:22:20.040 --> 1:22:22.000 quite a few. I wanted to move on to that. Um, 1:22:22.080 --> 1:22:25.639 even though yeah, we're we're so um they talk about 1:22:25.680 --> 1:22:28.400 they have a whole section where they're they're talking about 1:22:28.439 --> 1:22:31.080 the actual glasses they have. So they announced the number 1:22:31.120 --> 1:22:34.720 one they have a project. The goal, as he repeatedly says, 1:22:34.800 --> 1:22:37.439 is to make a quote normal, good looking pair of 1:22:37.520 --> 1:22:41.519 glasses that do all this stuff, which is yeah, um, 1:22:41.560 --> 1:22:43.200 and he he does. In order as like a proof 1:22:43.240 --> 1:22:45.519 of concept, he shows us these a R ray bands 1:22:45.560 --> 1:22:48.400 that actually look legitimately rad They look like normal at 1:22:48.439 --> 1:22:51.360 least the privn't touched a pair of these in my hands, 1:22:51.360 --> 1:22:54.040 but the the the videos that are supposed to be 1:22:54.080 --> 1:22:55.960 these real products show a pair of what looked like 1:22:56.000 --> 1:22:58.400 normal ray bands that you can take pictures and videos with, 1:22:58.680 --> 1:23:00.360 you can answer phone calls on, you could do like 1:23:00.439 --> 1:23:02.840 video phone calls on them. And actually that they seem 1:23:02.920 --> 1:23:06.599 neat and like they look like normal glasses. Um, and 1:23:06.960 --> 1:23:10.639 that is pretty cool. Um. They go kind of pivot 1:23:10.680 --> 1:23:12.920 from that to announcing that like they have this new thing, 1:23:12.960 --> 1:23:16.759 project nizar Um, which oh I looked up what nazarre 1:23:16.800 --> 1:23:20.160 means a little bit ago. It's probably dystopian. Uh No, 1:23:20.320 --> 1:23:24.080 I think it was just yeah, uh, it's a town 1:23:24.200 --> 1:23:25.760 or it's a surf spot, right, it's a place and 1:23:25.800 --> 1:23:28.439 I think Portugal where there's like great waves and Mark 1:23:28.520 --> 1:23:30.519 Zuckerberg is really into surfing. He plays a surfing game 1:23:30.560 --> 1:23:32.200 at one point in this That is one of the 1:23:32.240 --> 1:23:35.360 most um embarrassing things. Embarrassing thing because I've seen in 1:23:35.400 --> 1:23:39.920 my entire fucking life. Um. But yeah, So Project Nazar 1:23:40.200 --> 1:23:41.679 is that they're supposed to be like the first true 1:23:41.680 --> 1:23:44.880 like VR glasses. So they do the good thing, which 1:23:44.880 --> 1:23:47.120 is like, here's the real technology, these ray bands, and look, 1:23:47.160 --> 1:23:50.240 these are pretty neat. Obviously that doesn't come close to 1:23:50.400 --> 1:23:53.479 what they're promising. Um, and this whole thing where they 1:23:53.479 --> 1:23:56.439 talk about what the glasses, which they say they're making 1:23:56.479 --> 1:23:58.720 good progress on, are going to do, we don't ever 1:23:59.080 --> 1:24:04.120 see any glasses. Yeah, yeah, And and that's because they're 1:24:04.160 --> 1:24:10.679 not really close uh to to working yet. The air 1:24:10.760 --> 1:24:13.000 glasses are gonna be the way to act. Like if 1:24:13.080 --> 1:24:17.320 the goal is to integrate digital spaces into the physical space, 1:24:17.439 --> 1:24:18.960 I think I think it's a good goal because what 1:24:19.160 --> 1:24:21.880 that's gonna do, that's gonna make the digital space less fake, right, 1:24:21.920 --> 1:24:24.439 it's injecting that into the actual real world. So I 1:24:24.479 --> 1:24:26.800 think that will actually really help with like disassociate of 1:24:26.840 --> 1:24:29.200 stuff is because it's actually in it's actually in the 1:24:29.240 --> 1:24:31.360 real world as well. I think that's gonna be wonderful 1:24:31.360 --> 1:24:34.240 when that gets developed. And I think the glasses are 1:24:34.240 --> 1:24:36.000 are definitely going to be a thing within the next 1:24:36.040 --> 1:24:39.720 ten to twenty years. There is ways of like illuminating 1:24:39.720 --> 1:24:42.000 glass on the side to make like like what it 1:24:42.040 --> 1:24:44.040 looks like an image. This is definitely gonna be a 1:24:44.080 --> 1:24:48.679 thing that's going to be possible. Like surveillance and privacy 1:24:48.760 --> 1:24:52.080 is like the big, big fears for that because we're 1:24:52.080 --> 1:24:55.040 nowhere close to hacking the brain enough to feel sensations. 1:24:55.040 --> 1:24:57.280 And like, the only thing I've played a lot of VR, 1:24:57.640 --> 1:25:00.599 the only thing that you can feel in VR is fear. 1:25:01.000 --> 1:25:03.560 That's the only thing that VR is capable of replicating 1:25:04.040 --> 1:25:07.080 as as a feeling. It's like you can feel terrified 1:25:07.120 --> 1:25:09.960 and VR that's that's that's it. You can't ever feel 1:25:10.000 --> 1:25:14.680 like there's one thing you can feel exhausted game. And 1:25:14.720 --> 1:25:17.080 I was doing like bow draws for like four hours, 1:25:17.120 --> 1:25:19.240 and I was like, we've we've developed the way to 1:25:19.280 --> 1:25:22.400 make you frightened and tired. That is best, which is 1:25:22.520 --> 1:25:25.599 all by the way, what Twitter does normally. It's true, 1:25:26.479 --> 1:25:29.080 all of like all of like the Resident Evil VR games, Yeah, 1:25:29.120 --> 1:25:32.120 they're gonna making you tired and terrified and that's kind 1:25:32.160 --> 1:25:34.360 of it. So we we have to close out. But 1:25:34.400 --> 1:25:37.519 I want to do that by playing Mark Zuckerberg lamenting 1:25:37.560 --> 1:25:40.240 the Internet that he played a major role in in building, 1:25:40.280 --> 1:25:42.160 as a way to talk about why we need a metaverse, 1:25:42.200 --> 1:25:45.160 because it's kind of funny because we're allowed to build 1:25:45.160 --> 1:25:48.479 and use, are more tightly controlled than ever, and high 1:25:48.560 --> 1:25:53.160 taxes on creative new ideas are stifling. This is not 1:25:53.360 --> 1:25:56.760 the way that we were met to use technology. The 1:25:56.880 --> 1:26:03.000 metaverse gives us an opportunity to well, but it's gonna 1:26:03.040 --> 1:26:08.320 take all of us creators, developers, companies of all sizes together. 1:26:08.720 --> 1:26:11.559 We can finally put people at the center of our 1:26:11.600 --> 1:26:15.080 technology and deliver an experience where we are present with 1:26:15.120 --> 1:26:22.080 each other. Yeah, what a Google? Like all of that nonsense. Everyone, 1:26:22.120 --> 1:26:24.280 you're not You're one of the people who has turned 1:26:24.280 --> 1:26:26.720 the Internet into an expensive walled garden. It didn't used 1:26:26.720 --> 1:26:30.160 to be this way. Then Facebook swooped in, made themselves 1:26:30.360 --> 1:26:33.640 for free um like integral to all content, and then 1:26:33.640 --> 1:26:36.400 started charging those content creators and like sucking them around 1:26:36.479 --> 1:26:38.200 and lying to them, which led to the destruction of 1:26:38.200 --> 1:26:40.200 a huge number of websites and a tremendous amount of 1:26:40.240 --> 1:26:43.920 digital culture, like your Wyatt feels like a dead waled garden, 1:26:44.000 --> 1:26:46.879 and everything you've presented in this video makes the metaverse 1:26:46.920 --> 1:26:49.560 feel like a dead waled garden. But I want to 1:26:49.600 --> 1:26:53.160 play his last lines in the in this video because 1:26:53.200 --> 1:26:55.000 this is him kind of summing up his vision for 1:26:55.040 --> 1:26:58.599 the future via the Metaverse. And now it is time 1:26:58.640 --> 1:27:01.400 to take everything that we have learned and helped build 1:27:01.640 --> 1:27:05.080 the next chapter. I am dedicating our energy to this 1:27:05.200 --> 1:27:07.599 more than any other company in the world. And if 1:27:07.600 --> 1:27:09.880 this is the future that you want to see, then 1:27:09.960 --> 1:27:12.839 I hope that you will join us, because the future 1:27:13.320 --> 1:27:16.760 is going to be beyond anything we can imagine. I 1:27:16.800 --> 1:27:18.960 agree with that part mark. The future is going to 1:27:19.000 --> 1:27:21.400 be beyond what you can imagine. What a gool, Yeah, 1:27:21.400 --> 1:27:24.479 because you have no imagination. It's just it's just using 1:27:24.840 --> 1:27:28.400 trendy tech terms to trick investors into giving them billions 1:27:28.400 --> 1:27:31.040 of dollars. That's like the right, That's that's all it is. 1:27:31.080 --> 1:27:35.200 Because all of this, like this, like haptic feedback replicating 1:27:35.200 --> 1:27:37.960 like human feelings and stuff, that we're nowhere close to that, 1:27:38.000 --> 1:27:39.840 and when we do, it's going to be dystopian. But 1:27:39.880 --> 1:27:41.840 we're not close to it, and it's going to be 1:27:41.920 --> 1:27:45.960 dystopian or it's going to be better in ways that 1:27:46.040 --> 1:27:49.960 like we can't yet conceive of UM and then eventually 1:27:50.040 --> 1:27:52.760 it will be destroyed for profit if it actually gets 1:27:52.760 --> 1:27:56.120 cool like the old Internet was. Yeah, it's yeah, it's 1:27:56.280 --> 1:27:59.000 it's yeah. But I think but both this and even 1:27:59.040 --> 1:28:02.640 at like a lot of the epic stuff just seems ah, 1:28:03.040 --> 1:28:07.000 it's just the new way that tech companies, that's where 1:28:07.040 --> 1:28:10.000 they think the money vault is is by using these terms, 1:28:10.280 --> 1:28:11.920 and they think using these terms is going to get 1:28:11.920 --> 1:28:15.439 them lots of extra investor money because the actual technology 1:28:15.479 --> 1:28:17.040 is nowhere really close to this and it's not what 1:28:17.120 --> 1:28:20.120 people wanted out of the Internet anyway, it absolutely is not. 1:28:20.360 --> 1:28:23.679 But I don't know, I think this was important. I think, yeah, 1:28:23.960 --> 1:28:28.240 Facebook is important and has a major impact on the 1:28:28.280 --> 1:28:31.360 way the Internet is continuing to evolve UM, usually in 1:28:31.439 --> 1:28:34.000 negative ways. But this is how these people who are 1:28:34.400 --> 1:28:36.960 doing a lot of damage view the future. So you 1:28:37.000 --> 1:28:39.360 should know what they're looking at and what they anticipate. 1:28:39.560 --> 1:28:41.120 But I think I think that there's a kind of 1:28:41.120 --> 1:28:44.280 optimistic note to this though, right was just like Okay, 1:28:44.400 --> 1:28:47.240 so we've we've reached the point where like even like 1:28:47.720 --> 1:28:52.120 Boris Johnson is going like, oh god, climate change is coming, right, 1:28:52.800 --> 1:28:59.280 and this is the best they've got, right. They have nothing, 1:29:00.000 --> 1:29:02.760 They have nothing, And you know what, I think, like, 1:29:04.479 --> 1:29:05.800 what are the only ways we can win is if 1:29:05.840 --> 1:29:09.519 we're facing a uniquely incompetent ruling class, and if it's 1:29:09.600 --> 1:29:11.040 if the rule, if the if the guy were, if 1:29:11.040 --> 1:29:12.600 a guy we have to deal with in order to 1:29:12.840 --> 1:29:16.720 like not drown every single whale and like have half 1:29:16.760 --> 1:29:18.800 of the world's city is consumed, but the ocean is 1:29:19.240 --> 1:29:24.880 Mark Zuckerberg, like, we got a shot. I think there 1:29:24.920 --> 1:29:27.920 are some smarter people that aren't. Yeah, that is not 1:29:28.000 --> 1:29:32.559 mind the scenes right, like yeah, um, but I I 1:29:32.600 --> 1:29:34.840 don't think I think that's a nice note to end on, 1:29:34.960 --> 1:29:37.960 because it is. It is worth The nice thing about 1:29:38.000 --> 1:29:40.799 this is how clearly they don't understand what the future 1:29:40.840 --> 1:29:43.679 is going to look like online. Um, they have ways 1:29:43.680 --> 1:29:45.960 in which they're trying to direct the future, and aspects 1:29:45.960 --> 1:29:49.719 of that will come true, like the VR will succeed 1:29:49.760 --> 1:29:51.880 in some form at some point, and it will be 1:29:51.960 --> 1:29:58.960 potentially an unprecedented surveillance breakthrough that has some unsettling implications 1:29:59.160 --> 1:30:00.439 that ever sets get into help with a lot of 1:30:00.439 --> 1:30:02.840 other stuff. I think the move by Twitter to create 1:30:02.880 --> 1:30:06.240 like this, like it's called like like Twitter spaces where 1:30:06.240 --> 1:30:08.840 it's like this like you know, basically like voice chat room. 1:30:08.880 --> 1:30:10.599 Like a lot of people are moving towards this concept 1:30:10.640 --> 1:30:13.559 where we try to like inject more like in person 1:30:13.640 --> 1:30:16.920 interactivity into this virtual framework right now, this with like 1:30:17.120 --> 1:30:20.080 with like a clubhouse last year during during the pandemic 1:30:20.320 --> 1:30:22.800 where people like watching like Netflix in the quote same room, 1:30:22.920 --> 1:30:25.519 right Like, We're seeing people try to do this with 1:30:25.800 --> 1:30:28.519 varying mixed success. But this is the way tech is 1:30:28.280 --> 1:30:30.479 is inching. So it is a good idea to keep 1:30:30.479 --> 1:30:31.680 your eye on it because yeah, it has a lot 1:30:31.680 --> 1:30:34.479 of implications for like clevacy and advertising and all that 1:30:34.560 --> 1:30:37.080 kind of stuff. We'll continue to cover aspects of this, 1:30:37.200 --> 1:30:40.040 talk about the technology, talk about the surveillance implications, talk 1:30:40.080 --> 1:30:42.800 about the visions these people have. But I think that 1:30:42.960 --> 1:30:44.840 this has been these episodes have been useful and like 1:30:44.880 --> 1:30:47.120 here's what Mark thinks is coming. Here's what Facebook is 1:30:47.160 --> 1:30:50.400 pouring like ten million dollars into it's dumbest shit. Have 1:30:50.479 --> 1:30:59.320 a nice day. Raphi is the voice of some of 1:30:59.360 --> 1:31:05.519 the happy songs of our generation. Babe, So who is 1:31:05.560 --> 1:31:09.600 the man behind baby Bluga? Every human being wants to 1:31:09.720 --> 1:31:14.519 feel respected. When we start with young, all good things 1:31:14.560 --> 1:31:18.040 can grow from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, new Dad 1:31:18.160 --> 1:31:20.800 and host of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from My 1:31:20.880 --> 1:31:24.080 Heart Radio and Fatherly. Listen every Tuesday on the I 1:31:24.160 --> 1:31:28.040 Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm 1:31:28.080 --> 1:31:31.040 Colleen with Join me, the host of Eating Wall Broke 1:31:31.120 --> 1:31:35.840 podcast while I eat a meal created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers, 1:31:35.920 --> 1:31:38.280 and celebrities over a meal they once ate when they 1:31:38.280 --> 1:31:41.080 were broke. Today I have the lovely aj Crimson, the 1:31:41.160 --> 1:31:45.840 official Princess of comfin Asia, Kidding and Assia. This is 1:31:45.840 --> 1:31:48.559 the professor. We're here on Eating Wall Broke and today 1:31:48.600 --> 1:31:51.320 I'm gonna break down my meal that got me through 1:31:51.479 --> 1:31:54.000 a time when I was broken. Listen to Eating Wall 1:31:54.040 --> 1:31:57.000 Broke on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple podcast 1:31:57.120 --> 1:32:00.519 or wherever you get your podcasts. Make to check out 1:32:00.600 --> 1:32:03.200 Drink Champs, your number one music podcast on the Black 1:32:03.200 --> 1:32:05.920 Effect podcast Network. Host n O. R E and d 1:32:06.040 --> 1:32:08.639 J E f N sat down with artists and icon Ya, 1:32:09.080 --> 1:32:13.760 which Vulture called one most significant interviews. I literally had 1:32:13.800 --> 1:32:15.920 to go like Danos and I don't want to have 1:32:15.960 --> 1:32:18.000 to be the villain. But when I went and did 1:32:18.040 --> 1:32:22.080 the Donda thing, he returned and anybody had to sit 1:32:22.120 --> 1:32:25.360 back and watch the real leader. Check out Drink Champs 1:32:25.400 --> 1:32:28.439 Conversation with Yea and many more legendary artists each and 1:32:28.479 --> 1:32:31.440 every Friday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast 1:32:31.560 --> 1:32:46.040 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows podcast. All right, 1:32:46.160 --> 1:32:51.240 well I've done my job for the day. Wow, you 1:32:51.400 --> 1:32:54.360 even by our standards. That's a that's an intro. That's 1:32:54.360 --> 1:32:59.599 actually OK. Thank you. This is of course it could 1:32:59.640 --> 1:33:03.160 happen here a show about how things aren't going so great, 1:33:03.320 --> 1:33:06.360 kind of falling apart, crumbling a bit, but also maybe 1:33:06.600 --> 1:33:09.160 things could be better. That would be nice. Let's try 1:33:09.200 --> 1:33:11.760 and do that. Today is one of the maybe things 1:33:11.760 --> 1:33:14.360 could be better episodes. And we are talking about the 1:33:14.439 --> 1:33:18.599 ongoing wave of strikes. We had strike Tober last month 1:33:18.680 --> 1:33:22.360 with John Dear strikes and and and strikes uh and 1:33:22.840 --> 1:33:26.200 like what a couple of different food companies a bunch 1:33:26.240 --> 1:33:28.760 of strikes um. And today we would like to get 1:33:28.800 --> 1:33:31.519 an update on all the motherfucker's who were out there 1:33:31.520 --> 1:33:36.440 striking for better conditions um and and better treatment um 1:33:36.520 --> 1:33:40.280 and today for that purpose, we've brought on the great, Kim, 1:33:40.360 --> 1:33:44.080 Kelly Kim, you are a journalist who focuses a hell 1:33:44.120 --> 1:33:46.719 of a lot on labor. You've been up and down 1:33:47.040 --> 1:33:49.040 to some of the coal strikes that have been going on. 1:33:49.120 --> 1:33:51.640 You were there for the Amazon attempt to form the 1:33:51.760 --> 1:33:57.080 union in um O GS was that Arizona, um Alabama, 1:33:57.120 --> 1:33:59.799 Alabama UM And you're writing a book on the history 1:34:00.000 --> 1:34:02.600 of labor um in the United States. So I'd like 1:34:02.640 --> 1:34:04.880 to just kind of turn the floor over to you. 1:34:05.800 --> 1:34:09.519 There's a four, there's okay, there's a flour, there's no fire. 1:34:10.120 --> 1:34:12.920 Is filthy as it ends up. You know, we're doing 1:34:12.960 --> 1:34:16.840 our best, aren't we are? Yeah? You are, we are not. 1:34:18.400 --> 1:34:19.920 I am. I'm trying to keep up with all this 1:34:20.080 --> 1:34:25.280 labor action. It's exciting action, hot labor action, some hot 1:34:25.360 --> 1:34:29.200 labor action stories. So as you mentioned, we're just kind 1:34:29.200 --> 1:34:32.880 of coasting off of the peak of Strikectober, which was 1:34:32.920 --> 1:34:35.200 such a fun thing to kind of see explode in 1:34:35.200 --> 1:34:38.760 the mainstream consciousness. Like usually labor stories, they're a big 1:34:38.760 --> 1:34:41.200 deal to the people that are involved in them and 1:34:41.280 --> 1:34:43.040 people in the labor world who are watching and like 1:34:43.120 --> 1:34:45.559 rooting for them, but they don't necessarily end up on 1:34:45.640 --> 1:34:48.640 like you know, the mainstream like that they're end up 1:34:48.680 --> 1:34:51.360 on the TV. They don't end up with like fancy 1:34:51.400 --> 1:34:54.120 old guys talking about it on dateline or whatever. But 1:34:54.760 --> 1:34:57.240 that's something that happened, and I think there's been a 1:34:57.280 --> 1:35:00.840 real shifting consciousness that is the company that And of 1:35:00.880 --> 1:35:03.040 course you know it's like Striketober is fun. There's all 1:35:03.080 --> 1:35:05.280 these these big strikes happen at the same time. But 1:35:05.320 --> 1:35:07.679 we of course need to remember that that didn't happen 1:35:07.720 --> 1:35:10.200 in a vacuum. There's people on strike now who have 1:35:10.280 --> 1:35:12.960 been on strike since before, since before it was cool, right, 1:35:13.400 --> 1:35:16.679 since much earlier. Like shout out to the St. Vincent 1:35:16.880 --> 1:35:20.400 nurses up in Massachusetts and to the coal miners in 1:35:20.560 --> 1:35:22.920 Brooke with Alabama Warrior Men who have both been on 1:35:22.960 --> 1:35:26.559 strike for over eight months and they kind of right 1:35:26.680 --> 1:35:29.040 so literally like they're like they're in the middle of 1:35:29.080 --> 1:35:31.240 their tour drives for their children because they've been on 1:35:31.320 --> 1:35:33.680 strike for so long, and they kind of got a 1:35:33.720 --> 1:35:36.160 little bit left out of the conversation around strike Toober. 1:35:36.800 --> 1:35:38.640 And I think that just kind of shows that we 1:35:38.640 --> 1:35:40.760 need to be paying attention even when it's not as 1:35:40.800 --> 1:35:43.439 flashy or new or exciting. I mean, strikes were was exciting. 1:35:43.479 --> 1:35:47.160 But you know, there's a lot going on, and one 1:35:47.160 --> 1:35:50.519 of the things I think is interesting and important, especially 1:35:50.560 --> 1:35:53.320 as we head into strikes giving, which I guess we're 1:35:53.320 --> 1:35:59.680 doing strikes giving strike Smiths strike and thank you very 1:36:02.040 --> 1:36:08.880 day forth the strike Uli. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it 1:36:08.960 --> 1:36:12.479 gets worse earlier really until we get to labor day 1:36:12.520 --> 1:36:15.920 and by then, yea striker's day. That one works pretty well. 1:36:16.000 --> 1:36:19.280 I'm also a fan of striking. Tine's Day, um strike 1:36:19.360 --> 1:36:23.960 and tized Day. That's cute. Well, rage baby, keep this going. Yeah, 1:36:25.439 --> 1:36:31.599 strike strike, there's a missed opportunity there. Although that that 1:36:31.640 --> 1:36:34.639 frightens me. Garrison that the band Ween might go on strike, 1:36:34.680 --> 1:36:38.080 and I don't know, society we do, we wouldn't have 1:36:38.200 --> 1:36:40.840 our we would we would be completely out of Ween. 1:36:41.040 --> 1:36:43.240 Our reserves of Ween aren't going to last long if 1:36:43.240 --> 1:36:48.439 they stop. Yeah. Yeah, there's been a tragic shortage of 1:36:48.439 --> 1:36:50.080 Ween for years now. I don't know that we can 1:36:50.120 --> 1:36:52.320 handle a stripe. Please contain you can? Yeah, I mean 1:36:52.360 --> 1:36:54.680 I realized you were a nerd, Robbert. This is kind 1:36:54.680 --> 1:37:00.920 of throw some things into question. Yeah, yeah, I mean, 1:37:01.000 --> 1:37:03.880 as a heavy metal dirtbag, I'm like contractually obligated to 1:37:04.080 --> 1:37:08.400 make say things like that. But as I was pontificating 1:37:09.240 --> 1:37:12.799 a minute ago, right, so as we go into strikes giving, 1:37:13.120 --> 1:37:15.600 there are still more big strikes on the horizon and 1:37:15.680 --> 1:37:18.240 potential big strikes in the horizon. But part of the 1:37:18.280 --> 1:37:21.240 story that I think is also very energizing and important 1:37:21.720 --> 1:37:25.280 is the organizing that's happening in the new unions that 1:37:25.320 --> 1:37:28.360 are hopefully gonna end up being formed, not necessarily as 1:37:28.360 --> 1:37:30.559 a result of this wave of attention, but they're kind 1:37:30.560 --> 1:37:32.479 of caught up in the tide. I mean, when we 1:37:32.520 --> 1:37:35.799 look at the Starbucks workers in Buffalo who have scared 1:37:35.880 --> 1:37:37.880 the ship out of their employers to the point where 1:37:37.880 --> 1:37:41.040 they're flying executives in to follow them around the store 1:37:41.040 --> 1:37:43.439 and be like, please don't vote for reunion. We need 1:37:43.479 --> 1:37:46.479 all of our billions of dollars we can't share. Or 1:37:46.520 --> 1:37:49.879 you know, even workers at wire Cutter who are threatening 1:37:49.920 --> 1:37:52.760 to strike on Black Friday and their whole thing is 1:37:52.800 --> 1:37:57.759 telling people what's stuff to buy, you know, and McDonald's workers, 1:37:57.760 --> 1:37:59.679 and I think ten different these a ten different cities, 1:37:59.680 --> 1:38:03.040 attendfferent states, ten different locations just went out on like 1:38:03.080 --> 1:38:06.200 a one day strike over sexual harassment in the workplace. 1:38:06.840 --> 1:38:09.679 Kroger workers are taking a strike authorization vote in Texas. 1:38:10.240 --> 1:38:14.200 We have multiple Amazon organizing attempts happening in Staten Island, 1:38:14.560 --> 1:38:16.639 and a rerun of the election coming up in Best 1:38:16.680 --> 1:38:21.040 for Alabama, and there's just so much happening that, you know, 1:38:21.120 --> 1:38:23.880 I hope that the novelty idea of the strikes told 1:38:23.920 --> 1:38:25.840 we're striketh giving. I hope like that was fun. But 1:38:25.880 --> 1:38:27.880 I hope now that people are paying attention, that they 1:38:27.960 --> 1:38:31.360 stay interested and realize that, you know, labor stories. Maybe 1:38:31.360 --> 1:38:34.280 it's not necessarily always like a big strike or like 1:38:34.280 --> 1:38:37.040 a cool picket line to look at, but there's a 1:38:37.080 --> 1:38:40.120 lot going on. Like every story is a work story, 1:38:40.120 --> 1:38:42.760 every story is a labor story, and people seem like 1:38:42.800 --> 1:38:44.920 they're finally catching on the fact that, you know, we're 1:38:44.920 --> 1:38:50.080 all workers, and wow, cool things happen when we come together. Yeah. 1:38:50.160 --> 1:38:52.920 I I hope that too, And I hope that, um, 1:38:53.000 --> 1:38:56.519 you know, the word on everybody's lips, who's I don't 1:38:56.600 --> 1:38:58.000 coming at this from kind of a little bit of 1:38:58.000 --> 1:39:01.880 a more uh, either radical or desperate point of view, 1:39:01.960 --> 1:39:03.680 depending on how you want to frame it. Is like 1:39:04.040 --> 1:39:07.040 general strike, general strike, and you know, there's there's been 1:39:07.080 --> 1:39:10.320 some there's been people online who keep saying like, Okay, 1:39:10.360 --> 1:39:13.040 well we're all just gonna go on on Black Friday, 1:39:13.080 --> 1:39:15.280 everybody general strike, And it's like, yeah, well you don't. 1:39:15.360 --> 1:39:17.360 You don't set that up on Twitter. Like the the 1:39:17.439 --> 1:39:20.240 unions that are striking now have strike funds and put 1:39:20.240 --> 1:39:22.720 a lot of thought into it and have like had 1:39:22.760 --> 1:39:25.040 to take there's things you have to do in order 1:39:25.080 --> 1:39:28.040 to not irresponsibly like just screw over a bunch of 1:39:28.080 --> 1:39:32.479 working people. Um, but it is like, I'm a believer 1:39:32.640 --> 1:39:35.439 in the potential of something like a general strike to 1:39:35.840 --> 1:39:42.800 to force significant concessions. I mean, yeah, I guess I 1:39:43.000 --> 1:39:45.760 think if it. I mean it's a huge if because 1:39:45.760 --> 1:39:49.240 it's never really effectively been Like there's been pieces of 1:39:49.280 --> 1:39:51.519 it done like we saw. I think the closest we've 1:39:51.520 --> 1:39:54.479 gotten in like my lifetime has been when the the 1:39:54.520 --> 1:39:57.680 airline workers threatened to go on strike over the over 1:39:57.720 --> 1:39:59.960 the budget thing, and you just saw the federal government go, 1:40:00.080 --> 1:40:04.760 oh fuck, nope, you know what, we can actually pass 1:40:04.880 --> 1:40:08.519 this thing. I mean, that's the thing like that threat 1:40:08.600 --> 1:40:11.639 that I think that was Sara Nelson said that even 1:40:11.680 --> 1:40:14.320 like hinted towards that in twenty nineteen when the government shutdown, 1:40:14.360 --> 1:40:16.120 that's sort of that was a tipping point. I think 1:40:16.160 --> 1:40:19.640 that's the first time people, well really was prob the 1:40:19.640 --> 1:40:22.120 first time in many people's lifetimes that an actual labor 1:40:22.240 --> 1:40:25.400 leader with that platform and even mentioned those words. Because 1:40:25.520 --> 1:40:28.440 general like general strikes historically kind of are more situated 1:40:28.439 --> 1:40:32.000 than that late nineteenth century early twentieth century like labor 1:40:32.040 --> 1:40:35.280 swinging its stick around era, and we've been kneecapped so 1:40:35.400 --> 1:40:38.560 much that that doesn't feel as as possible. But I 1:40:38.640 --> 1:40:40.679 mean the fact that she said, and she was part 1:40:40.720 --> 1:40:43.559 of the airline industry. If we're ever going to actually 1:40:44.439 --> 1:40:46.880 you know, bring capital to its knees, we're going to 1:40:47.000 --> 1:40:49.799 need the transportation workers. We're going to need the dock workers. 1:40:49.800 --> 1:40:53.080 We're gonna need to like actually analyze who is moving 1:40:53.120 --> 1:40:56.400 things around the country, who's making sure things work, and 1:40:56.439 --> 1:40:58.880 how can we get them to put down to down 1:40:58.920 --> 1:41:01.479 their tools and be like, Okay, we're gonna do something 1:41:01.479 --> 1:41:04.400 about this. You know, the whole general strike idea, I mean, 1:41:05.000 --> 1:41:06.960 I mean, and arguably like one of the first ones 1:41:07.120 --> 1:41:11.519 was you know, in Black Reconstruction, they do the book, 1:41:11.600 --> 1:41:14.799 there's a uh, this argument that the first general strike 1:41:14.920 --> 1:41:20.160 was enslaved enslaved people leaving the plantations and withdrawing their 1:41:20.240 --> 1:41:24.080 labor from that situation, like that was the form of striking. 1:41:24.640 --> 1:41:26.200 And I think the general strike is kind of a 1:41:26.400 --> 1:41:29.479 morphous idea, especially online as more people learn about labor 1:41:29.520 --> 1:41:31.200 and learn about it. But there's also like kind of 1:41:31.200 --> 1:41:35.599 a specific thing, like you can't just declare like, Okay, 1:41:35.600 --> 1:41:38.280 we're all not going to go to work tomorrow, like cool, 1:41:38.960 --> 1:41:41.439 but there's so much planning that goes into it to 1:41:41.439 --> 1:41:44.040 make sure that people are able to do that and 1:41:44.080 --> 1:41:46.680 sustain that. And the people that are traditionally you know, 1:41:46.800 --> 1:41:49.880 already left out or the most vulnerable and marginalize, like 1:41:49.920 --> 1:41:52.720 that their needs are prioritized because the people that can 1:41:52.800 --> 1:41:56.559 afford to declare general strike and not show up for 1:41:56.600 --> 1:41:58.920 a week, like that's all well and good for them, 1:41:59.120 --> 1:42:01.640 but what about one else who can barely afford to 1:42:01.680 --> 1:42:05.240 go to work at all. Yeah. I've had these arguments 1:42:05.280 --> 1:42:08.280 with people online, and it's often like, well, you're saying 1:42:08.320 --> 1:42:10.040 we shouldn't be like if we just do it, people 1:42:10.040 --> 1:42:12.240 will figure it out, like the infrastructure will be built 1:42:12.280 --> 1:42:15.479 after the fact, And I'm like that's I'm glad that 1:42:15.520 --> 1:42:17.679 you're in a situation where you feel like you could, 1:42:17.840 --> 1:42:20.439 you could handle that kind of uncertainty. But like a 1:42:20.520 --> 1:42:23.840 single mother of four who relies on her job to 1:42:24.320 --> 1:42:26.320 keep them fed and alive, isn't going to be like 1:42:26.520 --> 1:42:28.679 someone will figure out how to feed my kids, Like, well, 1:42:30.479 --> 1:42:33.120 that's not how people work, you know. Yeah, this is 1:42:33.120 --> 1:42:35.880 we're having like a robust commitment to mutual aid and 1:42:36.160 --> 1:42:39.519 strike funds and like an actual fabric, like having the 1:42:39.560 --> 1:42:42.120 fabric of community where you can depend on your neighbors 1:42:42.120 --> 1:42:45.599 instead of never talking to them, Like a general strike 1:42:45.720 --> 1:42:49.519 would have a huge impact, but on who, Like who 1:42:49.560 --> 1:42:52.240 would it hurt more if you didn't plan it properly, 1:42:52.280 --> 1:42:55.599 if you didn't have if you didn't have an actual 1:42:55.960 --> 1:42:59.000 grassroots network of people ready to help, if you didn't 1:42:59.000 --> 1:43:01.120 need to understanding that not everyone can just go run 1:43:01.160 --> 1:43:03.879 off in the streets. Some people like have mobility issues, 1:43:03.920 --> 1:43:06.640 some people have children, some people are older or sicker, Like, 1:43:06.680 --> 1:43:10.040 there's so much that goes into it. Yeah, it's like 1:43:10.120 --> 1:43:12.000 your car is fucked up and you know you need 1:43:12.040 --> 1:43:14.080 to take it in to get some stuff fixed or 1:43:14.080 --> 1:43:16.599 it's eventually going to break down entirely. But that doesn't 1:43:16.600 --> 1:43:18.720 mean the right solution is just get in there and 1:43:18.840 --> 1:43:21.120 start hitting ship with a hammer, like you need to 1:43:21.240 --> 1:43:24.240 There needs to be like some systemic way you approach 1:43:24.320 --> 1:43:28.000 it right, Like there's a proper way to fix an engine, right, 1:43:28.120 --> 1:43:30.599 and we can do that, Like we can start building 1:43:30.600 --> 1:43:32.960 those networks. We can start you can organize your workplace 1:43:33.000 --> 1:43:35.920 and plug into the into like the organized labor frame 1:43:36.000 --> 1:43:39.080 or which obviously has many flaws, not as radical as 1:43:39.120 --> 1:43:40.920 I would and many other people like it to be, 1:43:41.200 --> 1:43:45.240 but they know how to do this ship. Like, there's 1:43:45.240 --> 1:43:47.639 a lot of different pieces that can be pulled together 1:43:47.720 --> 1:43:50.839 in different organizations and populations that need to work together 1:43:50.920 --> 1:43:54.760 if we're actually going to accomplish something like this. And 1:43:54.800 --> 1:43:56.320 I don't know if people are ready to put in 1:43:56.360 --> 1:44:00.479 all that work because it's more fun to tweet. Yeah, 1:44:00.600 --> 1:44:04.400 but I'm wondering, as they say in Alabama, bless their hearts. 1:44:04.880 --> 1:44:07.320 You're you're spending a tremendous m imman, as you just noted, 1:44:07.360 --> 1:44:09.280 you're spending a tremendous amount of time on the ground 1:44:09.400 --> 1:44:11.880 with a lot of these people talking with them. Are 1:44:11.920 --> 1:44:16.559 you are you seeing kind of how how are you 1:44:16.560 --> 1:44:18.880 hearing them talk about the other strike efforts you know 1:44:18.960 --> 1:44:20.920 in other industries that are going on right now, because 1:44:20.920 --> 1:44:22.800 it has been more in the news than it's been 1:44:22.840 --> 1:44:24.719 at any point I can recall on the recent past. 1:44:24.760 --> 1:44:27.400 And I'm wondering how in places like Bessemer, you know, 1:44:27.439 --> 1:44:30.000 in places like um you know that coal miners strike 1:44:30.040 --> 1:44:32.640 you've been at, like, how are they being are to 1:44:32.720 --> 1:44:35.160 what extent are they talking about other strike efforts? Like 1:44:35.280 --> 1:44:37.120 is that does that seem to be something that there's 1:44:37.120 --> 1:44:39.439 a lot of kind of consciousness and discussion about or 1:44:39.479 --> 1:44:41.680 is it just kind of in the background. I mean, 1:44:41.720 --> 1:44:43.640 it really depends. I like you said, I've spent I 1:44:43.760 --> 1:44:45.800 spent most of my time with the coal miners over 1:44:45.800 --> 1:44:47.439 the past years. I've been writing a book and I've 1:44:47.439 --> 1:44:49.800 spent my one my one fun thing. But I've been 1:44:49.840 --> 1:44:51.479 I mean I talked to them every single day, and 1:44:51.479 --> 1:44:53.600 I've been to Alabama lots of times, and I you know, 1:44:53.760 --> 1:44:55.320 I'm in a group ch out with the wise, Like 1:44:55.760 --> 1:44:57.800 I know, I have a decent grass what's going on. 1:44:58.400 --> 1:45:01.120 And honestly, the thing about it is that some there 1:45:01.280 --> 1:45:03.240 there's some folks who are very engaged and who have 1:45:03.680 --> 1:45:05.640 made twitters and they have their Facebook groups and they 1:45:05.640 --> 1:45:07.720 do pay attention what's happening. And I do think they 1:45:07.760 --> 1:45:12.200 feel that kind of excitement and that widespread sense of solidarity. 1:45:12.520 --> 1:45:15.960 But one thing that's important to remember, especially for workers 1:45:16.000 --> 1:45:19.439 who are already disadvantaged or they're dealing with low wage labor, 1:45:19.560 --> 1:45:22.680 is like it's really hard to go on strike. Like 1:45:22.760 --> 1:45:24.719 there's a lot of ship they have to figure out, 1:45:24.800 --> 1:45:27.439 Like there's kids, there's health issues, there's how am I 1:45:27.439 --> 1:45:29.880 going to pay my rent? Like like funds are great, 1:45:29.880 --> 1:45:32.680 but they don't cover everything. Like I think that's one 1:45:32.720 --> 1:45:35.439 of the realities that maybe it gets sort of glossed 1:45:35.479 --> 1:45:38.519 over because we're also online and we like to you 1:45:38.560 --> 1:45:41.400 and me feels like, oh, everyone's fucking stoked about these strikes. 1:45:41.920 --> 1:45:44.719 But for someone in rural Alabama who is just hoping 1:45:44.760 --> 1:45:46.960 this strike is over soon so they can go back 1:45:46.960 --> 1:45:50.480 to work and have some financial stability, they're not necessarily 1:45:50.520 --> 1:45:53.920 reading your tweets or like signing up for webinars or 1:45:53.960 --> 1:45:57.920 even paying attention to like cool other strike efforts. I'm 1:45:57.920 --> 1:46:00.120 sure some some folks are aware and they find have 1:46:00.200 --> 1:46:03.120 that time to plug in, but most people just trying 1:46:03.120 --> 1:46:05.519 to get by. And these are folks who have spend 1:46:05.560 --> 1:46:07.559 like eight hours a day on the picket lines and 1:46:07.560 --> 1:46:09.840 there's no cell phone service out where their picket lines 1:46:09.880 --> 1:46:13.959 are like, there's only so much that a normal regular 1:46:14.080 --> 1:46:16.080 worker on the picket line can do to keep up. 1:46:18.040 --> 1:46:20.960 And um, you came into this, I think, unlike a 1:46:21.040 --> 1:46:23.360 lot of the people who are who are actually striking, 1:46:23.400 --> 1:46:26.680 you came into this with a lifelong history of the 1:46:26.960 --> 1:46:32.000 like of interest in kind of labor justice movements and whatnot, 1:46:32.040 --> 1:46:34.280 which I don't think most people who are in unions 1:46:34.280 --> 1:46:36.799 necessarily spend a ton of time studying the last hundred 1:46:36.880 --> 1:46:40.680 years of labor relations. Um, what has surprised you? Like? 1:46:40.760 --> 1:46:43.200 What what have what? What is like been a new 1:46:43.280 --> 1:46:46.200 realization that you've gotten since you started covering the stuff 1:46:46.240 --> 1:46:49.800 on the ground in this most recent period. So the 1:46:49.840 --> 1:46:51.760 thing that's really sticks with me and I'm going back 1:46:51.800 --> 1:46:54.439 to my minors again because that's you know, my where 1:46:54.560 --> 1:46:57.240 where the most familiarity. But something that I think has 1:46:57.280 --> 1:47:00.080 so much potential And I'm not going to Tyler's or 1:47:00.120 --> 1:47:03.120 how to articulate what that potential is. But so something 1:47:03.160 --> 1:47:07.400 I have seen is when this strike began, most not all, 1:47:07.400 --> 1:47:10.000 but the majority of the folks involved in this particular strike, 1:47:10.160 --> 1:47:14.120 or conservative Christian people who were a lot of voted 1:47:14.160 --> 1:47:15.400 for Trump, but a lot of them were like just 1:47:15.479 --> 1:47:19.559 in that world, maybe not like you know, wild mega people, 1:47:19.560 --> 1:47:21.880 but that's just what was the norm where they are 1:47:22.000 --> 1:47:24.679 in their community, and they will think about that much. 1:47:25.080 --> 1:47:27.840 But there are some people that I've seen, especially those 1:47:27.840 --> 1:47:29.920 were involved in the Mutual Aid efforts or have been 1:47:29.960 --> 1:47:32.320 who have seen Birmingham DSA come out, who have kind 1:47:32.360 --> 1:47:36.400 of taken this kind of like wider review of what's happening, 1:47:36.439 --> 1:47:39.280 how they fit in. I've seen their politics and their 1:47:39.360 --> 1:47:42.479 perspective shift. Like there are some people who are like 1:47:42.520 --> 1:47:46.479 straight up socialists now that seven months ago would have 1:47:46.560 --> 1:47:49.200 probably spit in your face or at least given you 1:47:49.240 --> 1:47:51.599 a hell of a look if you wouldn't even suggested 1:47:51.680 --> 1:47:53.960 such a thing. And this is a small sample size, 1:47:53.960 --> 1:47:56.680 and this is a unique situation, but I think it 1:47:56.720 --> 1:48:00.479 really speaks to the potential there to like reach people 1:48:00.520 --> 1:48:05.160 who are very ideologically politically different from what we maybe 1:48:05.160 --> 1:48:08.759 think of as labor people, as progressive, radical whatever people 1:48:08.760 --> 1:48:12.320 on our team, right, But the power of the strike 1:48:12.360 --> 1:48:14.479 and the power of labor is that there is so 1:48:14.560 --> 1:48:18.880 much there. There's kind of an inherent common ground because 1:48:18.920 --> 1:48:21.599 so many people, most people, a lot of people, most 1:48:21.600 --> 1:48:24.120 people have a job, a lot of people hate their boss. 1:48:24.520 --> 1:48:27.320 You can kind of build from that very very low 1:48:27.360 --> 1:48:31.400 baseline and find more common ground and kind of you 1:48:31.439 --> 1:48:34.080 can you can work towards a better understanding. Like maybe 1:48:34.080 --> 1:48:35.720 you're not going to be best friends, but you can 1:48:36.400 --> 1:48:40.400 potentially shift someone's harmful worldview by exposing them to new 1:48:40.439 --> 1:48:43.080 ideas once they trust that you're not just there to 1:48:43.120 --> 1:48:45.519 tell them they're wrong and stupid and bad. Were like, look, 1:48:46.120 --> 1:48:49.479 we were coming at this like I'm going to talk 1:48:49.520 --> 1:48:51.760 to you like a person. I understand we see the 1:48:51.760 --> 1:48:54.080 world differently, but like you know, I'm here to support you. 1:48:54.120 --> 1:48:56.160 I'm here listening to you. Maybe you could listen to 1:48:56.160 --> 1:48:58.439 what I have to say too, Maybe it might change 1:48:58.439 --> 1:49:05.200 how you see things. Sometimes it works, Yeah, yeah, um 1:49:05.320 --> 1:49:11.280 you know what else works? Kim blowing shut up? Well 1:49:11.320 --> 1:49:16.280 okay all allegedly um minecraft Yeah. I was gonna say 1:49:16.880 --> 1:49:24.800 cap ads, cap ADSMS ADS and services. Um, but I 1:49:24.840 --> 1:49:27.160 like your answer better. So let's just let's just let's 1:49:27.160 --> 1:49:31.360 just roll out with that material support, right. Like another 1:49:31.400 --> 1:49:35.120 concrete example there, the Birmingham DSA has been very active 1:49:35.160 --> 1:49:38.640 in fundraising and showing up and just providing support for 1:49:38.680 --> 1:49:42.000 the miners and then the people in strike and this 1:49:42.080 --> 1:49:45.240 is not necessarily a population of people that like the 1:49:45.280 --> 1:49:47.920 idea of socialism, whatever idea of it is that they 1:49:47.960 --> 1:49:53.040 hold because Fox News and russlmbar are big cultural standbys 1:49:53.080 --> 1:49:56.040 there like whatever they think socialism is. And then have 1:49:56.120 --> 1:49:59.080 a bunch of socialists show up and just practice solidarity 1:49:59.120 --> 1:50:02.240 and mutulating actice socialism, and they're like, oh, this, these 1:50:02.280 --> 1:50:05.400 guys are great, thank you for coming out things like that, 1:50:05.479 --> 1:50:08.639 where it's like, I feel like so much of radical 1:50:08.680 --> 1:50:12.600 politics in various, you know, various tendencies. There's just like 1:50:12.640 --> 1:50:15.840 a branding problem, and there's a propaganda problem on the 1:50:16.240 --> 1:50:18.160 right wing, and the maketure he doesn't tell anybody what 1:50:18.240 --> 1:50:22.720 anything means. Like, yeah, it's a broader conversation, right, But 1:50:23.680 --> 1:50:26.080 I felt for a while like one of the things 1:50:26.120 --> 1:50:29.240 that leftist organizers need to get better at doing is 1:50:29.640 --> 1:50:34.880 being willing to like drop names when they're not productive. Like, Okay, 1:50:34.920 --> 1:50:37.639 maybe these people, because of the media environment, they've grown 1:50:37.720 --> 1:50:40.120 up and are never gonna want to consider themselves socialists. 1:50:40.479 --> 1:50:44.080 But if they are willing to organize together and support 1:50:44.080 --> 1:50:47.200 the efforts of other working people to organize together against 1:50:48.240 --> 1:50:51.599 the capital holding class, like then Okay, Like what is it? 1:50:51.680 --> 1:50:54.280 Why do you need them to like start quoting Karl 1:50:54.320 --> 1:50:56.920 Marx or is it just cool that you've you've got 1:50:56.960 --> 1:51:00.160 them doing what they like? Yeah? I I that makes 1:51:00.160 --> 1:51:02.439 a lot of sense to me that, like, yes, some 1:51:02.640 --> 1:51:04.160 that you can get a lot of these people on 1:51:04.200 --> 1:51:08.200 board with again pretty radical things if you're if you're 1:51:08.240 --> 1:51:10.840 kind of approaching it from within their world, from within, 1:51:10.920 --> 1:51:13.759 like I'm not trying to talk to you about burning 1:51:13.760 --> 1:51:15.400 down the system. I'm trying to talk to you about 1:51:15.400 --> 1:51:16.960 how you get what you need. And it just so 1:51:17.000 --> 1:51:19.920 happens that how you get what you need um is 1:51:20.200 --> 1:51:23.400 taking the system on in a very direct way. I Mean, 1:51:23.479 --> 1:51:25.960 so many ideas that are painted as radical just like 1:51:26.280 --> 1:51:31.280 aren't like that's normal people caring for him, Like it 1:51:31.400 --> 1:51:34.080 is like community care and common sense. It's just been 1:51:34.120 --> 1:51:39.760 politicized to this insane extent. And even it's like I'm 1:51:39.760 --> 1:51:40.840 just like even like a lot a lot of the 1:51:40.840 --> 1:51:42.680 tenants of mutual aid you can even see pop up 1:51:42.680 --> 1:51:45.920 in a lot of like church communities as well, at 1:51:45.960 --> 1:51:48.120 least like at least like smaller you know, closer knit 1:51:48.160 --> 1:51:50.280 like communities that are actually based around helping each other 1:51:50.320 --> 1:51:52.519 at least I was. I've observed that and a lot 1:51:52.520 --> 1:51:55.680 of my time traveling across the States. Yeah, absolutely, that's 1:51:55.680 --> 1:51:57.880 a huge part of it. Like the church is the 1:51:57.920 --> 1:52:00.840 only mutual aid option, and so many like smaller and 1:52:00.840 --> 1:52:03.439 more ice librural communities or just communities where the church 1:52:03.479 --> 1:52:07.400 is a big deal. Like there's always ways to chip 1:52:07.439 --> 1:52:11.519 away these institutions and eventually hopefully burned them down right 1:52:11.600 --> 1:52:14.200 without alienating people and making them feel like you're coming 1:52:14.200 --> 1:52:16.680 in and telling them everything you believe is wrong and 1:52:16.720 --> 1:52:19.080 actually and making the mistakes. And of these folks, I'm 1:52:19.160 --> 1:52:21.720 sure they believe things that are absolute garbage. And I 1:52:21.720 --> 1:52:25.559 would never get everybody, you know, like there's you know, 1:52:26.360 --> 1:52:30.000 but there's there's Just covering the strike in particular has 1:52:30.040 --> 1:52:32.879 really just taught me a lot about the gray areas 1:52:32.920 --> 1:52:35.720 in between, not in like I wish you watched a 1:52:35.720 --> 1:52:37.599 liberal way, but just in a way of like how 1:52:37.600 --> 1:52:39.880 do you relate to normal fucking people who see the 1:52:39.880 --> 1:52:42.680 world differently but are in ultimately the same struggle as you, 1:52:43.040 --> 1:52:47.600 Like maybe I could, I mean going down there. The 1:52:48.040 --> 1:52:50.400 only time I've been around that many Trump supporters was 1:52:50.439 --> 1:52:52.600 like at protests where I was yelling at them or 1:52:52.640 --> 1:52:56.559 like at my family dinners. So I wasn't you know, 1:52:57.920 --> 1:53:00.439 I wasn't expecting to make friends, but then I did, 1:53:01.280 --> 1:53:04.160 and I think hopefully we've we've shifted each other's perspectives 1:53:04.160 --> 1:53:07.120 a little bit in a way that's beneficial. I don't know, 1:53:07.320 --> 1:53:11.559 it's been, it's been interesting. Yeah, talking to people really 1:53:12.040 --> 1:53:15.240 is a lot different than tweeting at them. Yeah, as 1:53:15.240 --> 1:53:22.559 a rule, don't tweet would be my recommendation to people. Never. Never. Yeah, 1:53:22.920 --> 1:53:24.960 talk to your neighbors and be nice to people when 1:53:25.000 --> 1:53:28.280 you buy coffee or food from them, and amazed what happens. 1:53:28.600 --> 1:53:31.479 And then tell your neighbors, Hey, I'm taking my phone 1:53:31.520 --> 1:53:33.240 down to the river to throw it in. Can I 1:53:33.280 --> 1:53:35.360 take your phone with me? Can we just all throw 1:53:35.400 --> 1:53:40.000 our phones in the river? Um, yeah, if you want to. 1:53:40.320 --> 1:53:42.160 If you're going to start at being the weird neighbor, 1:53:42.200 --> 1:53:45.639 it's a strong start. We've already killed the water system, 1:53:45.680 --> 1:53:48.200 so it's fine, Like just right in the river with 1:53:48.240 --> 1:53:51.519 the car batteries. You know, there's good for the eels. 1:53:51.680 --> 1:53:53.519 The thing I love about our show is just the hope, 1:53:53.640 --> 1:53:57.960 is the incredibly hope injected optimism that we start an 1:53:58.040 --> 1:54:02.240 end every episode West But no, I mean like I mean, like, yeah, 1:54:02.320 --> 1:54:04.679 the more people you know in your community, especially people 1:54:04.720 --> 1:54:07.519 who are like working class, you know, when bad stuff 1:54:07.520 --> 1:54:10.559 starts happening, the more people you know the better because 1:54:10.760 --> 1:54:12.599 that's a lot I'm guessing a lot of a lot 1:54:12.600 --> 1:54:14.760 of these people who are like you know, like like 1:54:14.760 --> 1:54:17.880 like old like old union workers. They have a lot 1:54:17.960 --> 1:54:20.800 of like physical skills, like like they they know how 1:54:20.840 --> 1:54:23.240 to do a whole bunch of stuff. And it might 1:54:23.280 --> 1:54:26.200 be worth getting to know some of those people, even 1:54:26.240 --> 1:54:28.920 if you know, depending where you live, like yeah, they 1:54:29.000 --> 1:54:31.720 they'll probably say something not great at least for you know, 1:54:31.840 --> 1:54:34.240 the first bit. But once you know, I have a 1:54:34.240 --> 1:54:37.960 lot of family and like a rural area of Alberta, 1:54:38.160 --> 1:54:41.200 and like, yeah, my my family is like pretty gay. Um. 1:54:41.240 --> 1:54:43.400 So you know, once you're in close to those people, yeah, 1:54:43.440 --> 1:54:46.520 they're they're gonna say something that's maybe not great. But 1:54:46.600 --> 1:54:49.000 once they get to like know you and really be like, oh, 1:54:49.040 --> 1:54:51.520 like you're another person. They like people. Actually, you know, 1:54:51.680 --> 1:54:54.240 people want to be around other people, and they'll even 1:54:54.400 --> 1:54:56.360 change the way they talk to be like oh yeah, 1:54:56.400 --> 1:54:58.400 maybe this isn't the best way to hang out around 1:54:58.440 --> 1:55:00.720 people because it's going to drive bull away. So yeah, 1:55:00.720 --> 1:55:03.400 I'll change the way I say some things, because like 1:55:03.440 --> 1:55:05.680 it turns out people actually, like a lot of a 1:55:05.680 --> 1:55:08.160 lot of folks just kind of want to make their 1:55:08.160 --> 1:55:11.880 lives a bit better and that's really their main focus. Yeah, 1:55:13.120 --> 1:55:16.600 it's hard to not to do that. And it's it's 1:55:16.680 --> 1:55:21.200 it's just this matter of like so much of what um, 1:55:21.240 --> 1:55:24.080 so much of what kind of the way that discourse 1:55:24.120 --> 1:55:28.800 happens online has poisoned aspects of activism is in like 1:55:29.680 --> 1:55:34.120 making it difficult for people to relate in that way 1:55:34.240 --> 1:55:36.320 without feeling like, well, okay, but if I can't get 1:55:36.360 --> 1:55:38.120 them on board with all of these other things, like 1:55:38.200 --> 1:55:40.720 I can't talk with them or whatever, like because they're 1:55:40.760 --> 1:55:43.040 because they don't agree with likeness and this, like we 1:55:43.120 --> 1:55:48.200 can't organize anything like the purity of ideology. Yeah, Like 1:55:48.240 --> 1:55:50.760 I feel like most people who aren't terminally online don't 1:55:50.800 --> 1:55:56.160 even necessarily have like a specific ideology not yeah, yeah, right, 1:55:56.240 --> 1:55:58.480 Like there's just stuff that they have learned or they 1:55:58.520 --> 1:56:00.840 have decided that is true about the world. They'll just 1:56:00.880 --> 1:56:03.640 kind of go with it and they'll interrogated all the time, 1:56:03.760 --> 1:56:05.400 and you can like those are people you can talk 1:56:05.440 --> 1:56:08.040 to and maybe ship, like I've done it with my dad, 1:56:08.280 --> 1:56:10.960 like I've seen it happen with some of these conservative 1:56:10.960 --> 1:56:13.480 coal miner folks. Like something as small as being able 1:56:13.480 --> 1:56:18.000 to humanize, like like, okay, if you're talking about something, 1:56:18.080 --> 1:56:19.760 oh like, well the thing you said like that really 1:56:19.800 --> 1:56:22.960 upset Joey, and you like Joey, so like maybe think 1:56:22.960 --> 1:56:25.200 about that, and they'll probably be chiller because like, oh, 1:56:25.200 --> 1:56:27.520 well that's yeah, it's Joey. I can't I don't want 1:56:27.520 --> 1:56:29.120 to be a dick to him. If we can just 1:56:29.160 --> 1:56:31.400 find a way to enact that on a very broad scale, 1:56:32.600 --> 1:56:35.080 life would be a lot better for a lot of people. Yeah, 1:56:35.160 --> 1:56:40.000 it's this, it's this dichotomy between a lot people want 1:56:40.040 --> 1:56:43.240 to own the folks they see as like being against 1:56:43.240 --> 1:56:45.600 them or being on the other side. But also people 1:56:45.680 --> 1:56:48.680 don't want to be a dick to people that like 1:56:48.840 --> 1:56:51.120 they like, you don't want to feel like you're a dick. 1:56:51.720 --> 1:56:55.720 So if you if you lean more into the weird 1:56:56.280 --> 1:56:59.120 in opposition, then you're going to trigger the well I 1:56:59.160 --> 1:57:02.800 wanna to make the person who disagrees with me angry 1:57:03.080 --> 1:57:05.000 side of the brain. But if you can lean into 1:57:05.040 --> 1:57:07.960 the like, hey, like we can get along like and 1:57:08.000 --> 1:57:10.280 I and and maybe you don't want to feel like 1:57:10.320 --> 1:57:12.920 an asshole. If we get along, then I don't know, 1:57:13.000 --> 1:57:16.440 that's a productive place to to continue conversations from and 1:57:16.440 --> 1:57:18.400 a good way to shift people, I think. And then 1:57:18.440 --> 1:57:20.360 when you're and then when your area floods because of 1:57:20.400 --> 1:57:24.919 severe rain and storms, that we have people that can help. Yeah, 1:57:25.040 --> 1:57:29.200 it's the importance of interacting with people in person, like offline, 1:57:29.400 --> 1:57:31.280 which is like obviously more difficult to do because we're 1:57:31.320 --> 1:57:34.959 still tried to depend. Yeah, they're like their caveat caveat caveat, 1:57:35.000 --> 1:57:38.440 but like it's so much easier to talk to someone 1:57:38.520 --> 1:57:40.960 and kind of like see the world you shift, or 1:57:40.960 --> 1:57:44.120 even just humanize yourself to someone who is inclined to 1:57:44.160 --> 1:57:47.000 not thinking of you as someone worth talking to. Like, yeah, 1:57:47.240 --> 1:57:49.080 as long as it's not you're not putting yourself in danger, 1:57:49.160 --> 1:57:52.920 like there's yeah, obviously I'm a blond lady, you know. 1:57:53.040 --> 1:57:56.680 But yeah, still we're not talking about like, oh, you 1:57:56.720 --> 1:57:58.680 have to go be friendly to people who want to 1:57:58.760 --> 1:58:02.400 murder you because you're trying. No, it's about no, we're 1:58:02.440 --> 1:58:04.920 not saying that. But most of these people don't think 1:58:04.920 --> 1:58:08.320 that maybe they have some regressive attitude or or they'll 1:58:08.400 --> 1:58:10.920 use the word gay to mean something, you know, not cool, 1:58:10.960 --> 1:58:12.200 and you'd be like, hey, you don't have to to 1:58:12.400 --> 1:58:14.640 be like, hey, you know, I'm you know, I'm actually 1:58:14.680 --> 1:58:17.520 gay jan or maybe don't hope that maybe you do, 1:58:17.600 --> 1:58:19.880 depending on the situation, to be like yeah, maybe maybe 1:58:19.920 --> 1:58:21.560 there's other words that we can use for this because 1:58:21.640 --> 1:58:26.120 yeah whatever, yeah, And and you can shift people into 1:58:27.560 --> 1:58:31.120 a closer alliance, um, just by becoming a human in 1:58:31.160 --> 1:58:33.720 their eyes and also letting them become a human in 1:58:33.760 --> 1:58:38.040 your eyes, um, which is necessary. The other option is 1:58:38.240 --> 1:58:40.440 not a pleasant one. So I would prefer the option 1:58:40.480 --> 1:58:43.840 where more people grow to see each other as human 1:58:43.880 --> 1:58:47.960 and worth supporting. Right, better tactic to me? Yeah, I 1:58:48.000 --> 1:58:50.080 know there's this argument where like no one is like 1:58:50.360 --> 1:58:53.080 I shouldn't have to educate you, I shouldn't have to 1:58:53.240 --> 1:58:55.800 put the time into to shift you, and like that 1:58:55.960 --> 1:58:58.200 is valid, that's fair, like you shouldn't have to but 1:58:58.320 --> 1:59:02.160 ideally no, no, yeah, but if you want to that 1:59:02.320 --> 1:59:04.520 change to happen, it's probably not going to happen unless 1:59:04.560 --> 1:59:06.360 she puts an effort in because they're probably not done. 1:59:06.600 --> 1:59:10.880 They think they're fine, and I don't know, there's a 1:59:10.880 --> 1:59:13.320 bunch of ship that you shouldn't have to do that. 1:59:13.360 --> 1:59:15.919 We're also all gonna have to do like I shouldn't 1:59:16.000 --> 1:59:18.120 we I shouldn't have to say, hey, guys, maybe we 1:59:18.160 --> 1:59:20.960 don't kill the ocean. Maybe killing the ocean is a 1:59:20.960 --> 1:59:23.080 bad idea, like I shouldn't have to No one should 1:59:23.120 --> 1:59:30.720 have to say that, but we do not stop, not please. 1:59:31.280 --> 1:59:34.160 The fact that you shouldn't have to do something also 1:59:34.240 --> 1:59:36.520 doesn't mean that like the thing doesn't need to be done. 1:59:36.520 --> 1:59:39.480 And obviously I don't think that the primary onus on 1:59:40.080 --> 1:59:45.520 speaking to let's say, the kind of increasingly radicalized white, 1:59:45.640 --> 1:59:48.720 lower middle and middle class, I don't think that falls 1:59:48.760 --> 1:59:51.160 primarily on people of color, on on the l g 1:59:51.280 --> 1:59:53.280 BT community. It falls on people like you would make 1:59:53.360 --> 1:59:57.240 him you know. Yeah, but it's still has to be done, 1:59:57.400 --> 1:59:59.520 Like it's a thing that needs to be done. And 1:59:59.600 --> 2:00:02.400 I'm not saying, hey, you out there, who you know, 2:00:02.680 --> 2:00:06.320 left where you grew up in rural Alabama because someone 2:00:06.400 --> 2:00:08.280 was going to fucking murder you and you had to 2:00:08.320 --> 2:00:10.800 get to a place where you could not deal with that. 2:00:11.040 --> 2:00:15.040 I'm not saying you need to go rolling back to Alabama. Um, 2:00:15.080 --> 2:00:19.040 but it's good that people are talking and working with 2:00:19.120 --> 2:00:21.560 and trying to build connections with folks out there and 2:00:21.640 --> 2:00:24.600 change the nature of kind of aspects of the culture 2:00:24.600 --> 2:00:27.360 and make things better, because that needs to be done. 2:00:27.400 --> 2:00:32.360 We can't just be like, well, fuck some of those people. Yeah, 2:00:32.480 --> 2:00:34.880 I mean, get that is definitely easier if you are 2:00:34.960 --> 2:00:37.160 like one of the bros. If you are you know, 2:00:37.360 --> 2:00:42.680 a bigger sis adjacent dude, that is that is of 2:00:42.680 --> 2:00:46.680 course going to make the yeah, I mean what you 2:00:46.720 --> 2:00:49.480 think about, like that's kind of the tax. That the 2:00:49.520 --> 2:00:51.720 right word. But the fact that you do feel comfortable 2:00:51.720 --> 2:00:54.280 and you're you're safe and you're not under a threat 2:00:54.320 --> 2:00:56.560 in those spaces because of who you are, like as 2:00:56.600 --> 2:00:58.800 like a white sister or even a white says lady 2:00:59.200 --> 2:01:01.880 like you like the price you pay for that is 2:01:01.920 --> 2:01:04.360 making it easier for everyone else to feel that too, 2:01:04.640 --> 2:01:07.800 like exactly, like that's your job, other people's jobs to survive. 2:01:07.840 --> 2:01:10.000 And you can be the one that pushes the boundaries 2:01:10.000 --> 2:01:11.800 on these things. So when someone says something not great, 2:01:11.840 --> 2:01:13.280 you can kind of call them out in like a 2:01:13.400 --> 2:01:15.960 browish way, and they can respond to that a lot 2:01:16.000 --> 2:01:19.280 better than, you know than a lot of other people 2:01:19.320 --> 2:01:21.600 who they don't know, you know, screaming at them in 2:01:21.680 --> 2:01:24.520 a no context scenario, We're like, oh, like, oh, you 2:01:24.520 --> 2:01:26.280 don't und like I'm a pretty lady. You don't want 2:01:26.320 --> 2:01:28.840 to make me upset by being rude, That's exactly, Yeah, 2:01:29.160 --> 2:01:32.040 Like you shouldn't. You should see this thing as rude 2:01:32.080 --> 2:01:34.600 and not okay, like the amount of men who have 2:01:34.640 --> 2:01:39.400 apologized me down there for swearing it's so funny. Yeah, man, 2:01:39.480 --> 2:01:42.200 my dude, I live in Philadelphia, but that's cute. But 2:01:42.240 --> 2:01:45.480 if I could disharness any of that, like chivalrous whatever, 2:01:46.640 --> 2:01:50.360 rose patriarchal viewpoint, like hey, apply this to being cool 2:01:50.440 --> 2:01:52.680 to my trans friends, are like not being rude to 2:01:52.720 --> 2:01:58.200 anyone else, Like sure, I'm down. Yeah, we don't take 2:01:58.280 --> 2:02:04.120 kindingly to miss gendering around these parts for a lot 2:02:04.120 --> 2:02:05.600 of people at least, Like you know, when I worked 2:02:05.600 --> 2:02:07.440 at like smaller workplaces, you know, where it's like a 2:02:07.520 --> 2:02:10.480 small business where I know the owner. Even if I mean, 2:02:10.520 --> 2:02:12.760 if some other employees want to unionize, the prospect is 2:02:12.760 --> 2:02:15.000 always kind of more weird or challenging because you know, 2:02:15.040 --> 2:02:16.920 it's a smaller business. Maybe it's like connected to like 2:02:16.920 --> 2:02:19.760 a larger you know, larger overall industry. You know, Like 2:02:19.760 --> 2:02:21.040 when I was like when I when I was like 2:02:21.080 --> 2:02:24.800 a park or instructor. Right, I had discussions with other 2:02:24.880 --> 2:02:26.600 with other like employees about doing you know, like a 2:02:26.840 --> 2:02:29.440 Parker instructors union type thing. But but it's it's it's 2:02:29.440 --> 2:02:31.520 hard when there's there's like not many of you or 2:02:31.640 --> 2:02:33.200 like you know, the owner. What would you say is 2:02:33.240 --> 2:02:35.240 like good good ways to at least get that get 2:02:35.240 --> 2:02:38.000 that conversation going among other employees and then you know, 2:02:39.480 --> 2:02:42.880 like similar similar examples from other stuff for people who 2:02:42.920 --> 2:02:44.640 deal with like smaller workplaces that aren't you know, like 2:02:44.680 --> 2:02:46.880 a co worker. They're not working for the Amazon or anything. 2:02:46.880 --> 2:02:50.040 You know, it's it's more like small local stuff. Right. 2:02:50.080 --> 2:02:54.120 So like the most important basic building block of all 2:02:54.240 --> 2:02:57.760 this is one on one conversation. That's organizing. Right. And 2:02:57.800 --> 2:02:59.400 even if you just work with like three or four 2:02:59.400 --> 2:03:02.840 other people and maybe unionizing and a formal structure doesn't 2:03:02.840 --> 2:03:04.720 necessarily make sense or it seems like it might be 2:03:04.720 --> 2:03:07.320 too much of a headache, you're still you know, like 2:03:07.360 --> 2:03:09.440 a group of workers coming together. It's still a union. 2:03:09.480 --> 2:03:10.920 It doesn't matter what n l r B has to 2:03:10.960 --> 2:03:13.920 say about it. And you you have shared interests and 2:03:13.960 --> 2:03:16.120 share challenges, and there's things that work you probably want 2:03:16.120 --> 2:03:19.160 to change so even coming together and discussing that with 2:03:19.200 --> 2:03:21.480 your coworkers, Like there's no law that says you have 2:03:21.600 --> 2:03:22.960 to be in a union. If you want to get 2:03:22.960 --> 2:03:25.360 some ship done, you can march on your boss at 2:03:25.480 --> 2:03:27.720 WW style and make them and demand a meeting. You 2:03:27.760 --> 2:03:30.800 can make a petition, you can do public pressure campaigns 2:03:30.800 --> 2:03:32.800 like all of the things. When all of them, but 2:03:32.880 --> 2:03:35.120 a lot of the tools that we see organized labor 2:03:35.480 --> 2:03:38.840 engaging in and unions engaging in those are those are 2:03:40.200 --> 2:03:42.880 available to everyone else too. It's easier if you're within 2:03:42.920 --> 2:03:45.200 that framework because you have that firepower behind you and 2:03:45.280 --> 2:03:48.400 you have maybe some legal protections, but just as workers, 2:03:48.840 --> 2:03:50.800 you know that. I guess it's more like the IWW 2:03:51.000 --> 2:03:54.080 solidarity unuse a multiply where like we didn't like we 2:03:54.080 --> 2:03:56.120 don't need to do no stinke ad badges like we're 2:03:56.120 --> 2:03:58.320 a union because we say we're a union, we're going 2:03:58.400 --> 2:04:01.280 to take control of things in our own way. Like 2:04:01.720 --> 2:04:04.360 you see this in UM. I'm trying to I think 2:04:04.800 --> 2:04:06.920 what's it called diversity threast there's a there's a thrift 2:04:06.960 --> 2:04:10.720 shop and I think Richmond, Virginia where workers just like 2:04:10.720 --> 2:04:12.560 they weren't being treated properly. I think it was like 2:04:12.600 --> 2:04:14.960 a like a queer community space that wasn't living up 2:04:14.960 --> 2:04:17.720 to its values due to actions by management, and so 2:04:17.840 --> 2:04:20.000 they just put a letter on the doors that we're 2:04:20.000 --> 2:04:22.960 not coming to work until you fix this. Here are 2:04:23.040 --> 2:04:26.560 clear demands, here's what we need. Here, you go figure 2:04:26.560 --> 2:04:28.800 it out. Like, I don't think they're in a formal union, 2:04:28.840 --> 2:04:31.720 but they're acting collectively, and that's something that is totally 2:04:31.760 --> 2:04:34.720 available to everyone as long as you're in a workplace. 2:04:35.200 --> 2:04:37.800 If you're independent contractor like me and probably some of you, 2:04:38.320 --> 2:04:41.200 that sucks and it's harder, but you can always find 2:04:41.200 --> 2:04:44.360 your people, and you can always there's always options, right, 2:04:44.400 --> 2:04:46.040 Like you don't have to just join a union. You 2:04:46.080 --> 2:04:50.840 don't have to be a teamster to get shipped done. Yeah. 2:04:50.880 --> 2:04:52.440 I think you know, when you were saying that, I 2:04:52.480 --> 2:04:54.440 was going through my past experience as a place like that. 2:04:54.520 --> 2:04:56.320 I'm like, yeah, we we kind of did do some 2:04:56.440 --> 2:04:59.360 of that stuff to varying degrees of success. Sometimes it 2:04:59.400 --> 2:05:02.680 works out well, sometimes it doesn't work out so well. Um, 2:05:02.720 --> 2:05:04.440 but yeah, I mean there was definitely a while where 2:05:04.560 --> 2:05:06.800 we did that did definitely makes them make some decent 2:05:06.880 --> 2:05:10.600 changes kind of based on on that model. Yeah, it's 2:05:10.640 --> 2:05:12.960 kind of a shift of perception where like you were 2:05:12.960 --> 2:05:14.560 just doing this because this is because you're a worker, 2:05:14.600 --> 2:05:16.120 and like we need to do this. But if you 2:05:16.240 --> 2:05:17.840 just take a step back and think of it, it's 2:05:17.920 --> 2:05:20.720 like this is a labor action. We're a union of workers. 2:05:20.760 --> 2:05:23.080 Like even just that little shift where it's like it's 2:05:23.600 --> 2:05:26.440 it's always us against them, but look as us as 2:05:26.440 --> 2:05:29.800 a little as a group, as a collective against this manager, 2:05:29.880 --> 2:05:33.040 against this exploitative practice. I think that has a little 2:05:33.040 --> 2:05:35.240 bit of power and a little bit of energy because 2:05:35.280 --> 2:05:38.000 your religion now and I'm still I think maybe it 2:05:38.000 --> 2:05:41.920 makes you feel a little less alone. And also and 2:05:41.960 --> 2:05:45.560 like you know, concerned activity is a legally protective regard too, 2:05:45.880 --> 2:05:47.840 so like there are some busin pieces of labor law 2:05:47.880 --> 2:05:50.080 that are useful in these situations too. If you have 2:05:50.520 --> 2:05:52.760 a nerdy friend who would like to read about them 2:05:52.800 --> 2:05:59.720 for you. All right, well, I think that's going to 2:05:59.800 --> 2:06:01.840 do it for us here and it could happen here. 2:06:02.120 --> 2:06:09.640 Um until next time, remember um fuck it organized. And 2:06:09.720 --> 2:06:12.760 where can people find Kim Kelly online if we want 2:06:12.800 --> 2:06:16.760 to send angry tweets? Oh wow, just try me, buddy, 2:06:17.320 --> 2:06:21.800 um at grim Kim because my college radio DJ name 2:06:21.840 --> 2:06:25.400 will never die and uh you can if you are 2:06:25.480 --> 2:06:28.040 thus inclined, you can pre order my book. But like 2:06:28.120 --> 2:06:32.040 Hell the Untold History of American Labor on the Internet, 2:06:32.120 --> 2:06:36.200 hopefully not Amazon, hopefully not. Yeah. I mean, if you do, like, 2:06:36.240 --> 2:06:39.440 thank you, But there's other places that are better. You 2:06:39.640 --> 2:06:41.000 Do you want people to send you a bunch of 2:06:41.080 --> 2:06:45.520 random knives, Kim knives? I mean I wouldn't. We've had 2:06:45.520 --> 2:06:47.560 a lot of luck with that in the past. I 2:06:47.680 --> 2:06:50.800 like nice that, like skincare, I like loose leaf tea, 2:06:51.200 --> 2:06:54.840 I contain multitudes. Really, send Kim a loose leaf T 2:06:55.040 --> 2:06:59.680 skincare knife, one of those one of those exfoliating knives 2:06:59.720 --> 2:07:02.640 with a with a T infuser in the in the hilt. 2:07:03.720 --> 2:07:06.840 Somebody make that sounds like that sounds like the next 2:07:06.880 --> 2:07:10.800 behind the bastards merch, Yeah, the T knife. Yeah, well, 2:07:10.840 --> 2:07:12.920 we'll put that out after we get finished where We've 2:07:12.960 --> 2:07:15.720 got a very exciting Black Friday product this year, which 2:07:15.800 --> 2:07:21.840 is a male to male UH adapter. People say you 2:07:21.840 --> 2:07:24.560 shouldn't do it. They say it causes elextrocution and fires 2:07:24.560 --> 2:07:26.760 and death. And I think those people are cuts um 2:07:26.920 --> 2:07:31.160 by our mail to mail adapter show the woke establishment 2:07:31.200 --> 2:07:42.280 that you won't be you won't be chained from cavalry 2:07:42.360 --> 2:07:46.040 audio comes the new true crime podcast, The Shadow Girls. 2:07:47.160 --> 2:07:49.360 I always wanted to know what it felt like kill 2:07:49.520 --> 2:07:53.280 them and started laughing. Prosecutors described him as a serial 2:07:53.400 --> 2:07:56.400 killer survant, kicking up these girls, getting him in a 2:07:56.480 --> 2:07:59.360 position of vulnerability. When he got hold of their neck, 2:07:59.480 --> 2:08:02.879 that was it. I'm Caroline Asia, a journalist and lifelong 2:08:02.920 --> 2:08:06.040 resident of the Pacific Northwest. I grew up near the 2:08:06.080 --> 2:08:08.720 banks of the Green River and in the shadow of 2:08:08.720 --> 2:08:12.000 the killer that bears its name. Time did you bring 2:08:12.000 --> 2:08:14.640 the camera? Wonder of time? Just one time? Time he 2:08:14.720 --> 2:08:18.000 started fantasizing about having sex with his mother, and he 2:08:18.120 --> 2:08:22.160 fantasized about killing her. But this podcast isn't only about 2:08:22.200 --> 2:08:25.800 tracking down the killer. It's about the victims. We stayed 2:08:25.800 --> 2:08:30.280 in the woods. He always liked to go into the woods. 2:08:30.400 --> 2:08:33.440 Kind of strange. Do you know how he feels about prostitutes? 2:08:33.720 --> 2:08:36.640 Listen to The Shadow Girls on the I Heart Radio app, 2:08:36.760 --> 2:08:44.240 on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Evrodsky, 2:08:44.320 --> 2:08:46.760 author of the New York Times bestseller fair Play and 2:08:46.800 --> 2:08:49.920 Find Your Unicorn Space activists on the gender division of 2:08:50.040 --> 2:08:53.560 labor attorney and family mediator. And I'm doctor as eating 2:08:53.600 --> 2:08:56.800 a Rucar, a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an 2:08:56.800 --> 2:09:00.760 expertise and the science of stress, resilience, mental health and burnout. 2:09:01.040 --> 2:09:03.960 We're so excited to share our podcast Time Out, a 2:09:04.040 --> 2:09:07.760 production of I Heeart Podcasts and Hell of Sunshine. We're 2:09:07.840 --> 2:09:10.680 uncovering why society makes it so hard for women to 2:09:10.760 --> 2:09:13.400 treat their time with the value it deserves. So take 2:09:13.480 --> 2:09:16.720 this time out with us. Listen to Time Out, a 2:09:16.800 --> 2:09:20.000 fair play podcast on the I heart radio app, Apple 2:09:20.080 --> 2:09:25.480 podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The art world 2:09:25.520 --> 2:09:29.720 it is essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes 2:09:29.720 --> 2:09:32.280 are still hanging off people's walls. You know they don't 2:09:32.280 --> 2:09:35.680 even know or suspect that they're fakes. I'm out like 2:09:35.760 --> 2:09:40.000 Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed and 2:09:40.160 --> 2:09:47.120 forgery in the art world. You knew the painting was fake. Um. 2:09:47.320 --> 2:09:51.000 Listen to Art Fraud starting February one on the I 2:09:51.120 --> 2:10:10.120 Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, 2:10:10.240 --> 2:10:12.200 Robert Evans here, this is it could happen here, the 2:10:12.240 --> 2:10:14.720 show about how things are falling apart and how maybe 2:10:14.800 --> 2:10:18.120 they could be made a bit better. Uh right, now, 2:10:18.720 --> 2:10:22.200 today we're doing an episode that is based on a 2:10:22.840 --> 2:10:26.040 I don't know essay Garrison wrote and I edited that 2:10:26.120 --> 2:10:29.840 we think you'll find interesting. So here it goes. Green 2:10:29.920 --> 2:10:33.120 capitalism promises to deliver us all the same luxuries and 2:10:33.160 --> 2:10:36.080 commodities that we enjoy today, but without doing net harm 2:10:36.160 --> 2:10:39.400 to the biosphere. It's the message liberal elites try to 2:10:39.480 --> 2:10:41.880 hold on when they make their case for being better 2:10:41.920 --> 2:10:46.160 stewards of the environment than Republicans. This is not untrue, 2:10:46.280 --> 2:10:48.760 but it's also not true enough to stop your house 2:10:48.760 --> 2:10:51.200 from flooding or your town from being incinerated in a 2:10:51.240 --> 2:10:55.400 hell storm. When it comes to the methods green capitalism 2:10:55.480 --> 2:10:58.520 posits by which we might reverse course without changing the 2:10:58.520 --> 2:11:01.480 direction of the ship. One term you'll here often is 2:11:01.880 --> 2:11:04.960 energy efficiency. I want to read a statement I found 2:11:05.000 --> 2:11:07.720 on white House dot gov, a fact sheet on the 2:11:07.720 --> 2:11:11.160 new US government commitment to reduce carbon emissions by fifty 2:11:11.200 --> 2:11:15.760 to fifty. I should note that's fifty of the two 2:11:15.800 --> 2:11:18.840 thousand five levels, which were like fient high or something 2:11:18.880 --> 2:11:22.680 like that. Anyway, here's the quote. The United States can 2:11:22.720 --> 2:11:25.680 create good paying jobs and cut emissions and energy costs 2:11:25.760 --> 2:11:29.560 for families by supporting efficiency upgrades and electrification and buildings. 2:11:29.560 --> 2:11:34.160 Through support for job creating retrofit programs and sustainable affordable housing, 2:11:34.360 --> 2:11:37.080 wider use of heat pumps and induction stoves, adoption of 2:11:37.120 --> 2:11:40.360 modern energy codes for new buildings. The United States will 2:11:40.400 --> 2:11:44.040 also invest in new technologies to reduce emissions associated with construction, 2:11:44.120 --> 2:11:49.560 including for high performance electrified buildings. Now, energy efficiency is 2:11:49.600 --> 2:11:52.280 in fact a fine goal, and trying to reduce emissions 2:11:52.360 --> 2:11:55.520 is broadly good. But the sad and kind of weird 2:11:55.600 --> 2:11:59.600 fact is that increasing efficiency can sometimes mean increasing pollution 2:11:59.800 --> 2:12:03.040 through what's known as the efficiency paradox, which is of 2:12:03.040 --> 2:12:05.920 course the title of the episode, because what you want 2:12:06.000 --> 2:12:08.080 you want us to think of a second title, of 2:12:08.080 --> 2:12:11.480 a separate title from that. Come on. So, first off, 2:12:11.960 --> 2:12:16.400 what does energy efficiency mean? In general terms, energy efficiency 2:12:16.480 --> 2:12:18.840 refers to the amount of output that can be produced 2:12:18.840 --> 2:12:22.240 with a given input of energy. Output being stuff that 2:12:22.360 --> 2:12:24.640 energy is used to do like light your house or 2:12:24.680 --> 2:12:28.880 wash your clothing, or power your wall mounted twenty volt 2:12:28.960 --> 2:12:32.000 vibrator that requires as much electricity as an arc welder 2:12:32.000 --> 2:12:35.400 in order to use. Energy savings are the reduction of 2:12:35.480 --> 2:12:38.920 energy use without the loss of output produced. Improved energy 2:12:38.960 --> 2:12:41.960 efficiency is expected to bring a number of benefits. First 2:12:41.960 --> 2:12:46.360 of all, reducing energy usage should result in lower energy bills. Ideally, 2:12:46.400 --> 2:12:50.240 reduced energy demand also means that energy imports can be decreased. 2:12:50.640 --> 2:12:54.640 The International Energy Agency has estimated that strict efficiency policies 2:12:54.680 --> 2:12:57.480 could allow the world to achieve more than forty of 2:12:57.560 --> 2:13:00.760 the greenhouse gas emissions cuts needed to reach its climate 2:13:00.800 --> 2:13:04.760 goals even without new technology, So there is considerable wiggle 2:13:04.840 --> 2:13:08.280 room within the existing structures of global society to reduce 2:13:08.320 --> 2:13:13.720 emissions a lot without fancy space technology. But despite substantial 2:13:13.800 --> 2:13:16.600 energy efficiency gains in the past few decades and decreases 2:13:16.600 --> 2:13:19.400 an output from places like the United States, we as 2:13:19.400 --> 2:13:22.400 a species are using more energy than we have pretty 2:13:22.480 --> 2:13:26.120 much forever, and emissions wildly surpass are or the Earth's 2:13:26.120 --> 2:13:30.080 ability to handle them. Quoting from the Global Carbon Project quote, 2:13:30.400 --> 2:13:34.640 global energy growth is outpacing decarbonization. Despite positive progress in 2:13:34.680 --> 2:13:37.320 twenty countries whose economies have grown over the last decade 2:13:37.320 --> 2:13:40.040 and their emissions have declined, growth and energy used from 2:13:40.040 --> 2:13:42.800 fossil fuel sources is still outpacing the rise of low 2:13:42.840 --> 2:13:46.840 carbon sources and activities. A robust global economy in sufficient 2:13:46.880 --> 2:13:50.080 emission reductions and developed countries and a need for increased 2:13:50.160 --> 2:13:53.320 energy use in developing countries where per capita emissions remain 2:13:53.360 --> 2:13:55.960 far below those of wealthier nations, will continue to put 2:13:56.040 --> 2:13:58.960 upward pressure on c O two emissions. They use the 2:13:59.040 --> 2:14:02.720 term developing um and developed. We don't prefer those. But 2:14:03.440 --> 2:14:07.000 obviously population growth contributes to all that, the growth and 2:14:07.080 --> 2:14:10.640 the use of energy and the emissions of carbon um 2:14:10.680 --> 2:14:12.600 you know, more people, more cars in the road, whatever, 2:14:12.640 --> 2:14:15.960 But it's not really the primary factor that's adding onto 2:14:16.000 --> 2:14:18.560 the increase in energy use for the human race. We'll 2:14:18.560 --> 2:14:21.040 talk about that later, though for now, it's important to 2:14:21.080 --> 2:14:24.400 note that the full potential energy savings, like in these 2:14:24.480 --> 2:14:26.680 kind of hypotheticals about how much could be saved by 2:14:26.680 --> 2:14:30.160 improving efficiency, are usually estimated by assuming that demand for 2:14:30.280 --> 2:14:34.200 energy services will remain unchanged after energy efficiency gains. So 2:14:34.560 --> 2:14:37.839 when they say that we can get of the greenhouse emissions, 2:14:37.880 --> 2:14:42.720 gases gas reductions we need by increasing efficiency, they're doing 2:14:42.720 --> 2:14:45.560 that assuming that nothing will change about our overall energy 2:14:45.640 --> 2:14:48.880 use when we make things more efficient. But time and 2:14:48.920 --> 2:14:51.000 time again we see that once products are made more 2:14:51.120 --> 2:14:54.760 energy efficient, people often end up consuming, producing, or even 2:14:54.920 --> 2:14:57.959 using more of the thing, which makes the potential savings 2:14:58.280 --> 2:15:01.000 less meaningful in a net result. Doesn't mean that it's 2:15:01.040 --> 2:15:02.920 not a net good, but it's not as much as 2:15:03.000 --> 2:15:06.480 is often calculated in these climate proposals. You can see 2:15:06.480 --> 2:15:09.560 this demonstrated on the job. If you're in say food services, 2:15:09.960 --> 2:15:11.400 if you happen to figure out how to do a 2:15:11.480 --> 2:15:14.240 task faster, your boss probably isn't gonna let you use 2:15:14.280 --> 2:15:16.880 that extra time to just chill out and do stuff 2:15:16.880 --> 2:15:19.080 on your phone. Um. What is the phrase, if you 2:15:19.080 --> 2:15:21.840 can lean, you can clean? Um? So if you do 2:15:21.920 --> 2:15:24.640 something faster now, you're just expected to do it faster 2:15:24.760 --> 2:15:27.800 all the time and output more total work for your boss. 2:15:28.160 --> 2:15:30.480 This is the paradox of efficiency, and it applies to 2:15:30.600 --> 2:15:34.200 energy as well. On a societal level. Increased energy efficiency 2:15:34.280 --> 2:15:37.120 is a double edged sword, having the potential to help 2:15:37.200 --> 2:15:40.360 cut emissions by a significant factor um and having the 2:15:40.400 --> 2:15:43.520 potential to increase our total energy used depending on what 2:15:43.720 --> 2:15:46.000 is made more efficient and how people react to it. 2:15:46.520 --> 2:15:49.600 The idea that energy efficiency improvements can actually lead to 2:15:49.640 --> 2:15:52.160 more overall energy use goes all the way back to 2:15:52.200 --> 2:15:55.720 the start of the Industrial Revolution. In eighteen sixty five, 2:15:55.720 --> 2:15:59.880 economist William Stanley Jeevens published a book called The Coal Question, 2:16:00.200 --> 2:16:03.400 in which he argued that innovation and efficiency, particularly in 2:16:03.440 --> 2:16:06.080 the case of the coal powered steam engine, would actually 2:16:06.160 --> 2:16:09.320 increase the overall consumption of coal, rather than reducing it 2:16:09.360 --> 2:16:12.200 as it had been intended to do. His prediction that 2:16:12.280 --> 2:16:15.600 efficiency improvements on steam engines would lead to massive economic 2:16:15.640 --> 2:16:20.200 expansion accelerating coal consumption was very much correct. This idea, 2:16:20.240 --> 2:16:23.920 then dubbed the Jeevens paradox, is still very much worth 2:16:23.960 --> 2:16:27.200 considering when we discuss efficiency gains and policies that are 2:16:27.200 --> 2:16:30.880 meant to reduce energy consumption and thereby fight climate change. 2:16:31.360 --> 2:16:34.440 In modern terms, we describe the process by which potential 2:16:34.560 --> 2:16:37.560 energy savings can be cut by greater use of the 2:16:37.680 --> 2:16:41.600 energy efficient product as the rebound effect. There are two 2:16:41.600 --> 2:16:44.680 different kinds of rebound effects observed, the most obvious of 2:16:44.720 --> 2:16:48.360 which is dubbed the direct rebound effect. Direct rebounds are 2:16:48.360 --> 2:16:51.920 observed when improvements and energy efficiency for a particular energy 2:16:52.040 --> 2:16:55.440 service reduces the effective price of that service and thus 2:16:55.480 --> 2:16:58.840 provides incentives to increase its demand. This leads to the 2:16:58.959 --> 2:17:03.040 overall increased efficiency, not equaling to a reduction energy used 2:17:03.040 --> 2:17:06.080 as it as you might think. Direct rebounds are observed 2:17:06.080 --> 2:17:09.440 when improvements and energy efficiency for a particular energy service 2:17:09.480 --> 2:17:12.120 reduces the effective price of that enough that it provides 2:17:12.160 --> 2:17:15.560 incentives to increase its demand. You may upgrade to a 2:17:15.600 --> 2:17:19.000 more energy efficient appliance, but because of the lower energy costs, 2:17:19.040 --> 2:17:21.280 you'll use the appliance more often and thus use more 2:17:21.320 --> 2:17:25.400 total energy. Or in some cases, energy efficiency gains are 2:17:25.440 --> 2:17:28.320 cut by the fact that more efficient products allow people 2:17:28.360 --> 2:17:31.760 to use more of that product. For example, someone may 2:17:31.840 --> 2:17:35.080 get a more efficient fridge that's also much larger, and 2:17:35.120 --> 2:17:38.280 so even though it cools more efficiently, it's also consuming 2:17:38.400 --> 2:17:42.480 overall more energy. Transportation has a lot of direct rebounds. 2:17:42.520 --> 2:17:46.200 Despite massive fuel efficiency gains in recent years, transportation is 2:17:46.200 --> 2:17:51.480 still responsible for twenty of global greenhouse gas emissions. Transportations 2:17:51.480 --> 2:17:54.920 contribution to global warming is quickly increasing, with travel producing 2:17:54.959 --> 2:17:59.080 greater and greater percentages of the planet's carbon footprint. Private 2:17:59.120 --> 2:18:02.440 automobile tail pipes will drive this phenomenon for the foreseeable future, 2:18:02.560 --> 2:18:04.600 as the number of active vehicles on the road is 2:18:04.600 --> 2:18:07.120 projected to grow from seven million in the year two 2:18:07.160 --> 2:18:11.000 thousand to two billion by so even though cars are 2:18:11.040 --> 2:18:13.879 a lot more efficient, vastly more cars are being used 2:18:13.920 --> 2:18:17.080 and of course that's not entirely. It doesn't mean that, like, 2:18:17.200 --> 2:18:19.600 more efficient cars cause people to buy more cars, but 2:18:19.640 --> 2:18:22.120 it does make it more affordable for more people to 2:18:22.160 --> 2:18:24.959 own cars and to drive them further, which drives up, 2:18:25.080 --> 2:18:28.520 you know, fuel use and drives up emissions. And you 2:18:28.560 --> 2:18:31.000 see how the whole problem works. And it's not just cars. 2:18:31.040 --> 2:18:34.000 When planes became more fuel efficient, ticket prices decrease and 2:18:34.040 --> 2:18:36.920 more people started to travel by plane. As cost per 2:18:36.959 --> 2:18:40.000 mile dropped, more miles were flown. The fact that airplanes 2:18:40.040 --> 2:18:42.920 got more fuel efficient didn't reduce general pollution by the 2:18:43.000 --> 2:18:46.240 air travel industry, quite to the contrary. In fact, the 2:18:46.320 --> 2:18:49.480 decreased emissions led to an increase in air travel, which 2:18:49.520 --> 2:18:51.520 shot a hell of a lot more poison out into 2:18:51.560 --> 2:18:53.959 the sky and also gave us eat pray love. So 2:18:54.440 --> 2:18:57.960 the other kinds of rebounds are indirect rebound effects. This 2:18:58.040 --> 2:19:01.400 refers to when energy efficiency leads to monetary savings for 2:19:01.400 --> 2:19:04.400 a producer or consumer, who then can spend those extra 2:19:04.440 --> 2:19:07.600 savings on other carbon emitting goods and services that otherwise 2:19:07.640 --> 2:19:10.520 they couldn't afford. For example, you buy a more fuel 2:19:10.560 --> 2:19:12.760 efficient car, you save money on fuel, and you wind 2:19:12.879 --> 2:19:14.520 up with extra funds in your bank account that you 2:19:14.520 --> 2:19:16.360 can use on a vacation, and maybe you take a 2:19:16.400 --> 2:19:18.800 flight on that vacation, so in the end you emit 2:19:18.840 --> 2:19:20.959 more c O two despite the fact that you're emitting 2:19:21.000 --> 2:19:23.360 less c O two through your car. You've got five 2:19:23.680 --> 2:19:25.600 bucks extra in the bank and you fly to Mexico 2:19:25.720 --> 2:19:29.240 on it. Right, that's an indirect rebound effect. So even 2:19:29.240 --> 2:19:31.560 if a product is replaced by a more efficient one 2:19:31.560 --> 2:19:34.600 with similar respects, lower energy bills can mean that more 2:19:34.640 --> 2:19:37.600 consumers will have more money to spend on goods and services. 2:19:38.040 --> 2:19:40.520 This is generally seen as desirable from a social and 2:19:40.600 --> 2:19:44.080 economic standpoint, and probably from an individual standpoint. Having more 2:19:44.080 --> 2:19:47.959 money is always useful UM, but it involves additional energy 2:19:48.000 --> 2:19:51.640 consumption means that you're consuming more, you're emitting more UM, 2:19:51.760 --> 2:19:54.840 and so the savings and whatnot haven't actually led to 2:19:54.879 --> 2:19:57.720 a savings in terms of, you know, from an environmental perspective. 2:19:58.080 --> 2:20:00.640 An analysis of EU data shows that of twenty nine 2:20:00.640 --> 2:20:04.200 EU countries, eleven experienced rebound effects of over fifty percent, 2:20:04.280 --> 2:20:07.400 which means more than half of the gains in energy 2:20:07.440 --> 2:20:12.040 efficiency were consumed by increases in energy use. Six of 2:20:12.040 --> 2:20:16.640 those countries, including Denmark, and Finland reached over rebound effects. 2:20:16.680 --> 2:20:18.640 This is called a backfire, and it means that in 2:20:18.640 --> 2:20:22.320 those six countries, extra energy spending overtook all of the 2:20:22.360 --> 2:20:26.600 efficiency gains achieved. Air Conditioning and heating are large contributors 2:20:26.640 --> 2:20:29.720 to both direct and indirect rebounds. A rebound effect as 2:20:29.760 --> 2:20:32.600 large as sixty percent has been shown in increased improvements 2:20:32.600 --> 2:20:35.720 and efficiency in the residential heating sector, which is something 2:20:35.760 --> 2:20:38.600 that the White House specifically quote about in their paper. 2:20:39.160 --> 2:20:42.160 In China, long term rebound effects ranging from forty six 2:20:42.200 --> 2:20:45.320 percent to fifty six percent for residential electricity consumption in 2:20:45.320 --> 2:20:48.560 Beijing have been estimated. All of this data casts doubt 2:20:48.560 --> 2:20:51.520 on the wisdom of relying on energy efficiency policies to 2:20:51.560 --> 2:20:54.600 reduce energy demand. I'm gonna quote here from a report 2:20:54.640 --> 2:20:58.760 by the Copenhagen School of Energy Infrastructure. In recent decades, 2:20:58.840 --> 2:21:01.640 large increases in demand and for energy services have globally 2:21:01.720 --> 2:21:05.600 driven energy consumption. As a counterbalance, energy efficiency has become 2:21:05.640 --> 2:21:09.040 a key energy policy mechanism to tackle higher energy consumption 2:21:09.040 --> 2:21:12.320 and emissions, and countries and regions have adopted different targets 2:21:12.320 --> 2:21:15.720 and policies to achieve energy and environmental objectives. The main 2:21:15.800 --> 2:21:18.240 goals of these policies are to minimize the dependence on 2:21:18.280 --> 2:21:21.200 fossil fuels and mitigate local air pollution and g h 2:21:21.240 --> 2:21:24.440 G emissions. This has been particularly relevant for the energy 2:21:24.440 --> 2:21:28.119 intensive sectors. The development and deployment of more efficient technologies 2:21:28.160 --> 2:21:31.320 are along with more technology management, the main channel to 2:21:31.400 --> 2:21:35.880 achieve these environmental and energy objectives. However, energy efficiency improvements 2:21:35.920 --> 2:21:38.480 can lead to changes in the demand for energy services, 2:21:38.720 --> 2:21:42.320 changes that offset some of the expected energy savings. Consequently, 2:21:42.400 --> 2:21:46.320 forecasts of energy consumption reductions may be overstated. As evidenced 2:21:46.320 --> 2:21:49.040 by the empirical literature, rebound effects can be a non 2:21:49.040 --> 2:21:53.000 negligible issue. Therefore, ignoring them can imply an overestimation of 2:21:53.040 --> 2:21:56.360 the benefits coming from energy efficiency improvements. This can in 2:21:56.360 --> 2:21:59.600 turn lead to decisions such as the overallocation of public funds. 2:21:59.640 --> 2:22:03.160 To In a factive environmental and energy policies, policy makers 2:22:03.200 --> 2:22:05.920 need to take rebound effects into account for air quality, 2:22:06.040 --> 2:22:09.640 energy security, and climate change policy reasons. A rebound effect 2:22:09.640 --> 2:22:13.000 different from zero implies that the expected proportional reductions and 2:22:13.000 --> 2:22:16.879 emissions from fuel efficiency improvements might not be achieved. Therefore, 2:22:17.000 --> 2:22:19.760 the policy goals to reach specific levels of emissions through 2:22:19.800 --> 2:22:23.960 fuel efficiency enhancements may need to be adjusted accordingly. Again, 2:22:24.040 --> 2:22:26.800 we have nothing against the idea of making more efficient devices. 2:22:27.160 --> 2:22:29.720 The point is that energy efficiency can't be pursued in 2:22:29.760 --> 2:22:32.360 a vacuum. It has to coincide with changes to a 2:22:32.440 --> 2:22:35.879 less extract of cancerous mindset regarding the Earth's resources and 2:22:35.920 --> 2:22:39.160 carrying capacity. Just telling someone you can drive more for 2:22:39.240 --> 2:22:41.560 less money now, or you can afford to keep your 2:22:41.560 --> 2:22:45.160 TV on all the time doesn't really help anything. My 2:22:45.280 --> 2:22:48.840 fear is that governments and corporations, the neoliberal leviathan as 2:22:48.840 --> 2:22:51.160 we've come to call it on this show, will focus 2:22:51.200 --> 2:22:55.120 almost overwhelmingly on energy efficiency to maintain economic growth and 2:22:55.160 --> 2:22:58.439 obscure the overall lack of action on stopping carbon emissions. 2:22:58.760 --> 2:23:02.600 Think Joe Biden doing donuts in an electric jeep through 2:23:02.600 --> 2:23:05.800 such a lens as the Biden administration. Energy efficiency is 2:23:05.840 --> 2:23:08.640 a foil to climate change, is a charade being used 2:23:08.680 --> 2:23:11.400 to keep relentless economic growth viewed as a net good. 2:23:11.720 --> 2:23:14.400 It plays into the myth that will be able to mitigate, adapt, 2:23:14.400 --> 2:23:16.760 and survive the effects of climate change with little to 2:23:16.800 --> 2:23:19.760 no change to our current lifestyles. What we need to 2:23:19.800 --> 2:23:22.920 do is decouple human well being from energy consumption and 2:23:22.959 --> 2:23:27.000 consumption in general. To effectively combat climate change. This needs 2:23:27.000 --> 2:23:29.920 to happen at such a scale that advocating for individual 2:23:30.000 --> 2:23:32.879 changes in lifestyle will never be enough, but that is 2:23:32.920 --> 2:23:35.760 still a significant part of the puzzle. The trick comes 2:23:35.760 --> 2:23:37.760 in getting people to accept the fact that their life 2:23:37.760 --> 2:23:40.400 will need to change without them telling them and buying 2:23:40.440 --> 2:23:42.720 this product instead of that product. Is how you do it. 2:23:43.400 --> 2:23:46.200 That said, populations of people can and do change their 2:23:46.200 --> 2:23:50.240 behaviors in pretty profound ways. In nineteen fifty, abortion was 2:23:50.360 --> 2:23:53.000 not at all an issue for the religious right. Resistance 2:23:53.000 --> 2:23:56.080 to abortion might make some Protestants distrust you, because that 2:23:56.120 --> 2:23:58.959 was seen as a Catholic concern. Now abortion is the 2:23:59.000 --> 2:24:02.240 defining political issue of the ascendant right. Their promise to 2:24:02.280 --> 2:24:05.039 destroy it is the rock upon which their titanic power 2:24:05.160 --> 2:24:08.640 is based. In a less calamitous sense. Since two thousand seven, 2:24:08.640 --> 2:24:11.040 we've gone from a time in which smartphones were expensive 2:24:11.040 --> 2:24:13.520 trash for rich people to buy, to today, when they're 2:24:13.520 --> 2:24:16.000 expensive trash that every human being who can afford to 2:24:16.120 --> 2:24:18.680 has to carry at all times because they're so utterly 2:24:18.720 --> 2:24:22.200 integrated to our daily life. So yes, people can change. 2:24:22.800 --> 2:24:25.320 A bigger challenge, though, will be to change the mindset 2:24:25.400 --> 2:24:29.119 of industry, which is not entirely or even often driven 2:24:29.120 --> 2:24:31.840 by consumer demand, as we've seen with the release of 2:24:31.879 --> 2:24:34.680 papers proving Chevron and other oil and gas companies knew 2:24:34.680 --> 2:24:37.560 about and deliberately hid research on climate change for decades. 2:24:37.959 --> 2:24:40.520 Big capital will put its thumb on the scale every 2:24:40.560 --> 2:24:43.200 step of the way. In other words, if you come 2:24:43.240 --> 2:24:46.720 at the behemoth that is the integrated industrial economy, you'd 2:24:46.720 --> 2:24:50.120 best come correct. How do we do that? Well, if 2:24:50.120 --> 2:24:52.800 anybody really knew, they would have, you know, done it 2:24:52.879 --> 2:24:56.280 by now. The human infrastructure of extract of capitalism is 2:24:56.320 --> 2:24:59.040 deep and vast and tightly woven into the structure of 2:24:59.080 --> 2:25:02.680 every government with any real power. So with the full 2:25:02.760 --> 2:25:05.480 understanding and admission that we aren't claiming to have solutions 2:25:05.520 --> 2:25:08.440 to that problem, let's talk about something that will at 2:25:08.480 --> 2:25:11.599 least be part of any real solution to the problem. 2:25:11.720 --> 2:25:14.360 D growth. This is a term will explain in more 2:25:14.360 --> 2:25:16.959 detail later, but we mean it's simply as a holistic 2:25:17.000 --> 2:25:21.440 approach to encouraging reduction and energy consumption and global environmental justice. 2:25:22.120 --> 2:25:24.440 A paper on the j Evens paradox and the link 2:25:24.520 --> 2:25:28.119 between innovation, efficiency and sustainability for the Frontiers and Energy 2:25:28.160 --> 2:25:33.000 Research concluded quote the jevens paradox entails that sustainability problems 2:25:33.040 --> 2:25:36.480 cannot be solved by technological innovations alone. They must be 2:25:36.520 --> 2:25:40.680 solved through institutional and behavioral changes. While there are still 2:25:40.800 --> 2:25:43.480 differences of opinion about the scale every bound effects and 2:25:43.520 --> 2:25:46.120 ongoing arguments about the macro and micro and longer and 2:25:46.200 --> 2:25:49.800 shorter term consequences of efficiency, our interest in this topic 2:25:49.840 --> 2:25:52.440 today is driven by the goal of improving how we 2:25:52.600 --> 2:25:57.280 use energy rather than totally overhauling or abandoning efficiency. One 2:25:57.280 --> 2:25:59.760 example would be the current fight in Europe over smartphone 2:25:59.800 --> 2:26:02.480 chart argers most of the rest of the smartphone industry 2:26:02.520 --> 2:26:05.360 worldwide has jumped onto USBC is the right kind of 2:26:05.400 --> 2:26:09.080 port for charging, et cetera with your device. Before this point, 2:26:09.760 --> 2:26:11.560 those of you have been using smartphones for a decade 2:26:11.600 --> 2:26:13.959 or we'll remember, there were tons of different charges and 2:26:14.080 --> 2:26:15.800 thus a tons of different waste. Every phone had to 2:26:15.840 --> 2:26:17.560 come with a new charger. A lot of them wound 2:26:17.600 --> 2:26:21.240 up in the trash that has been reduced by everyone 2:26:21.360 --> 2:26:24.400 jumping onto USBC. But Apple continues to use their own 2:26:24.440 --> 2:26:27.080 special charger, and now the EU was promising to make 2:26:27.120 --> 2:26:30.640 a law to mandate USBC for charging new phones in 2:26:30.680 --> 2:26:34.480 an attempt to reduce waste. This isn't again a bad thing, 2:26:34.600 --> 2:26:37.920 but if someone's really concerned with waste among the smartphone industry, 2:26:38.240 --> 2:26:42.440 planned obsolescence is the thing to go after. Now, Targeting 2:26:42.480 --> 2:26:45.080 planned obsolescence stopping it includes a number of things. And 2:26:45.360 --> 2:26:47.360 for one thing, you have to fight for the right 2:26:47.400 --> 2:26:50.720 to repair devices, which is something that a number of corporations, 2:26:50.760 --> 2:26:52.920 not just in the smartphone industry, have lobbied to in 2:26:52.959 --> 2:26:57.359 some cases make illegal. More than that, it's stopping somehow 2:26:57.440 --> 2:27:00.760 these companies from making the conscious decision to brickle technology 2:27:00.800 --> 2:27:03.280 to increase profits, and that aspect of it is the 2:27:03.320 --> 2:27:06.480 bigger enemy than even the right to repair. As electronic 2:27:06.520 --> 2:27:09.080 device has become common and more sectors of daily life 2:27:09.200 --> 2:27:12.080 via the Internet of Things, the overall share of global 2:27:12.160 --> 2:27:14.720 energy use that goes to making new versions of old 2:27:14.760 --> 2:27:17.360 products that could still be working but are designed to 2:27:17.400 --> 2:27:21.200 break is is really quite depressing. For one example of 2:27:21.240 --> 2:27:23.760 how large it must be, I haven't found any solid 2:27:23.760 --> 2:27:26.680 information on the total size of this industry. Things that 2:27:26.720 --> 2:27:29.160 you have to repeatedly re buy because they're meant to break. 2:27:29.440 --> 2:27:32.320 But the mobile phone industry and two thousand nineteen alone 2:27:32.400 --> 2:27:35.680 was four point six percent of global GDP, So that's 2:27:35.879 --> 2:27:39.600 close to five percent of global GDP just from making 2:27:39.680 --> 2:27:41.680 phones that are designed to break so you have to 2:27:41.720 --> 2:27:44.160 buy a new phone. This is an example of an 2:27:44.200 --> 2:27:46.720 area in which people's perspectives have to be changed, and 2:27:46.840 --> 2:27:49.160 I think actually that digital fatigue, the fact that we're 2:27:49.160 --> 2:27:52.560 also fucking exhausted with these devices these days, may provide 2:27:52.600 --> 2:27:55.200 somewhat of an inroad for convincing people that they need 2:27:55.240 --> 2:27:58.920 to buy new gadgets less often. But because these gadgets 2:27:58.959 --> 2:28:02.160 are so crucial to day life, the industry actually also 2:28:02.240 --> 2:28:04.840 has to be forced to change. And again, rite repair 2:28:04.959 --> 2:28:07.240 is one part of this, but that doesn't stop Apple 2:28:07.280 --> 2:28:09.720 from just deciding to throttle their old devices whenever they 2:28:09.720 --> 2:28:11.520 need to add a new layer to the money pile. 2:28:12.480 --> 2:28:14.840 Our overall point with all this is that solutions to 2:28:14.879 --> 2:28:17.279 climate change have to be cultural and not just based 2:28:17.280 --> 2:28:19.480 in some version of will invent a better version and 2:28:19.520 --> 2:28:22.560 that will solve the problem. Hybrid gas burning cars and 2:28:22.600 --> 2:28:26.439 standardized charging chords are nibbling around the edges of the problem. 2:28:26.480 --> 2:28:29.959 Relying on technological advances pacifies us in the present, and 2:28:30.000 --> 2:28:33.720 it reinforces the need for certain types of human material codependence, 2:28:33.959 --> 2:28:36.800 and that kind of codependence leads to increased dependency and 2:28:36.800 --> 2:28:39.560 more extraction. By no means am I trying to say 2:28:39.600 --> 2:28:42.080 that innovation is bad. I love gadgets as much as 2:28:42.080 --> 2:28:45.440 the next person. Innovation also has the capacity to heavily 2:28:45.480 --> 2:28:49.120 decreased resource extraction. It just has to be tailored with 2:28:49.160 --> 2:28:51.960 something more than just will make this device more efficient 2:28:52.040 --> 2:28:54.360 so we can use it more or sell more of them. 2:28:54.800 --> 2:28:58.120 The capitalist mode of mass resource extraction and grind for 2:28:58.160 --> 2:29:00.959 efficiency are intertwined, and if we are to limit the 2:29:00.959 --> 2:29:04.160 most catastrophic effects of climate change, we as a culture 2:29:04.240 --> 2:29:07.119 need to rethink how we view efficiency and energy use. 2:29:08.040 --> 2:29:10.600 For the past few hundred years, economic growth has been 2:29:10.600 --> 2:29:13.520 the road that has led to our current ecological dilemma. 2:29:13.680 --> 2:29:16.680 The fantasy of switching over to nuclear and renewable energy 2:29:16.720 --> 2:29:19.880 with a perfectly efficient electric grid to just sidestep climate 2:29:19.920 --> 2:29:23.520 collapse is it's a fantasy. We missed our chance to 2:29:23.600 --> 2:29:26.840 do that. Even if we stop all carbon emissions right now, 2:29:27.000 --> 2:29:29.840 all of them, the carbon already in the atmosphere would 2:29:29.879 --> 2:29:32.680 push us past two degrees celsius of warming in about 2:29:32.800 --> 2:29:36.680 fifty years. So what besides carbon capture can we do 2:29:36.800 --> 2:29:39.600 about this we as in both you the regular listener 2:29:39.640 --> 2:29:42.600 and the goals with power and real influence well. The 2:29:42.600 --> 2:29:45.880 two thousand eighteen International Panel and Climate Change Special workport 2:29:45.959 --> 2:29:50.000 indicated that in the absence of speculative negative emissions technologies, 2:29:50.400 --> 2:29:53.400 the only feasible way to remain within safe carbon budgets 2:29:53.640 --> 2:29:56.760 was for high incombinations to actively slow down the pace 2:29:56.840 --> 2:30:01.120 of material production and consumption. D growth is the planned 2:30:01.120 --> 2:30:04.640 reduction of energy use, corporate profits, over production, and excess 2:30:04.640 --> 2:30:07.840 consumption designed to bring the economy back into balance with 2:30:07.920 --> 2:30:10.720 the living world in a way that reduces inequality while 2:30:10.720 --> 2:30:14.360 focusing on human and ecological well being. This isn't just 2:30:14.400 --> 2:30:16.800 some sort of utopian Marxist thinking, and in fact, a 2:30:16.800 --> 2:30:19.440 lot of Marxists have critiques of deep growth, and deep 2:30:19.440 --> 2:30:21.800 growth could be applied to a number of different economic 2:30:21.840 --> 2:30:25.480 and governmental systems. There are even some weirdo capitalist advocates 2:30:25.480 --> 2:30:28.720 of D growth. Discussion about solving climate change can get 2:30:28.760 --> 2:30:31.800 into uncomfortable eugenics e territory if you aren't careful, So 2:30:31.840 --> 2:30:34.880 I should emphasize here that D growth is primarily about 2:30:34.920 --> 2:30:39.920 already wealthy countries limiting their economic growth. When aggregated in 2:30:40.040 --> 2:30:42.640 terms of income. The richest half of the world, high 2:30:42.640 --> 2:30:45.760 and upper middle income countries amid eighty six percent of 2:30:45.760 --> 2:30:49.520 global CO two emissions. The bottom half, lower and middle 2:30:49.560 --> 2:30:54.160 income countries amid only fourteen percent. With very few exceptions, 2:30:54.160 --> 2:30:57.039 the richer than nation is, the more it emits. It's 2:30:57.040 --> 2:30:59.760 all part of the resource extraction infinite growth lie we 2:30:59.840 --> 2:31:03.160 tell ourselves to keep going. Wealth is so much more 2:31:03.160 --> 2:31:06.560 of a factor in emissions than population. North America is 2:31:06.560 --> 2:31:09.120 home to only five percent of the world population, but 2:31:09.160 --> 2:31:12.360 emits nearly eighteen percent of c O two. Asia is 2:31:12.400 --> 2:31:14.960 home to sixty percent of the world's population, but amidst 2:31:14.959 --> 2:31:17.800 just forty nine percent of c O two. Africa has 2:31:17.840 --> 2:31:21.040 sixteen percent of the population but emits just four percent 2:31:21.080 --> 2:31:23.720 of its c O two. This is reflected in per 2:31:23.760 --> 2:31:27.800 capita emissions. The average North American amidst seventeen times more 2:31:28.000 --> 2:31:31.920 than the average African. This inequality in global emissions lies 2:31:31.959 --> 2:31:34.680 at the heart of why international agreement on climate change 2:31:34.720 --> 2:31:38.000 has and continues to be so contentious. The richest countries 2:31:38.040 --> 2:31:40.279 in the world are home to half the world population 2:31:40.480 --> 2:31:43.000 and emit eighty six percent of c O two. We 2:31:43.080 --> 2:31:46.039 want global incomes and living standards, especially for those of 2:31:46.080 --> 2:31:48.720 the poorest half of the world to rise. The only 2:31:48.720 --> 2:31:50.959 way to do that while limiting climate change is to 2:31:51.040 --> 2:31:55.199 shrink the emissions of high income countries. Even several billion 2:31:55.240 --> 2:31:58.400 additional people in low income nations would leave global emissions 2:31:58.800 --> 2:32:02.240 almost unchanged. Three or four billion poor individuals would only 2:32:02.280 --> 2:32:05.039 account for a few percent of global CO two. At 2:32:05.040 --> 2:32:07.720 the other end of the distribution, however, adding only one 2:32:07.800 --> 2:32:10.520 billion high income individuals to the wealthiest parts of the 2:32:10.560 --> 2:32:13.879 world would increase global emissions by almost a third. A 2:32:13.959 --> 2:32:16.160 programmer in the United States has a higher c O 2:32:16.240 --> 2:32:19.720 two footprint than fifty farmers in Uganda. A decent chunk 2:32:19.760 --> 2:32:22.359 of this is just due to meet consumption. Meet consumption 2:32:22.400 --> 2:32:25.400 per capita in the richest fifteen countries is seven hundred 2:32:25.400 --> 2:32:28.080 fifty percent higher than in the poorest twenty four countries. 2:32:28.879 --> 2:32:32.800 Lowering the population of say Uruguay won't do much for emissions. 2:32:33.120 --> 2:32:35.640 This is not the case when you talk about wealthy nations. 2:32:35.920 --> 2:32:38.280 In fact, if you live and say the United States, 2:32:38.440 --> 2:32:41.040 possibly the biggest thing you as an individual could do 2:32:41.120 --> 2:32:44.199 to reduce emissions is to have fewer or no children. 2:32:44.720 --> 2:32:48.440 It's estimated that dedicated recycling curves about point three metric 2:32:48.480 --> 2:32:51.160 tons of CO two emissions per year, while having one 2:32:51.240 --> 2:32:54.360 fewer child is equivalent to preventing over fifty eight tons 2:32:54.400 --> 2:32:57.039 of CO two emissions a year. Better sex, said, and 2:32:57.080 --> 2:33:00.000 free access to contraceptives could also go a shockingly long 2:33:00.000 --> 2:33:03.640 long way to curbing individual emission In wealthy countries, these 2:33:03.720 --> 2:33:06.240 numbers are averaged across a whole nation, and just like 2:33:06.320 --> 2:33:08.920 the case in less wealthy countries, the impact on emissions 2:33:08.920 --> 2:33:11.120 by having one fewer kid will be far lesser if 2:33:11.160 --> 2:33:13.000 your middle class are poor than it would be if 2:33:13.040 --> 2:33:15.920 your upper middle class are rich. But of course none 2:33:15.959 --> 2:33:18.000 of that is going to be enough if industrial production 2:33:18.080 --> 2:33:21.320 keeps chugging along and advising people not to have children, 2:33:21.360 --> 2:33:24.760 one of the singular driving motivations for human beings across history, 2:33:25.280 --> 2:33:28.720 isn't exactly a vote getter of a proposition. De growth 2:33:28.800 --> 2:33:30.720 is critical, but the question of how to get there 2:33:30.800 --> 2:33:33.240 is thorny as hell. There are a few easy answers. 2:33:33.440 --> 2:33:36.560 Abolishing planned obsolescence could be pretty easily pitched to the 2:33:36.600 --> 2:33:39.080 average person. Cutting down on the number of people who 2:33:39.120 --> 2:33:41.400 have to commute could have a significant impact on toxic 2:33:41.440 --> 2:33:43.920 car culture, and again you can sell that to people. 2:33:44.400 --> 2:33:47.240 The obvious solutions are good places to start, but they 2:33:47.240 --> 2:33:50.200 should be seen as opening incisions, meant to clear the 2:33:50.240 --> 2:33:53.680 way to make deeper, more expansive cuts, and eventually hw 2:33:53.760 --> 2:33:56.200 away at the cancer we've planted in the heart of 2:33:56.200 --> 2:34:07.920 our civilization. After thirty years, it's time to return to 2:34:08.000 --> 2:34:10.320 the halls of West Beverly High and hang out at 2:34:10.320 --> 2:34:12.800 the peach pit. On the podcast nine O two one 2:34:12.840 --> 2:34:16.359 OMG joined Jenny Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch 2:34:16.400 --> 2:34:19.080 of the hit series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh. 2:34:19.120 --> 2:34:22.200 From the very beginning, we get to tell the fans 2:34:22.400 --> 2:34:25.080 all of the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, 2:34:25.200 --> 2:34:28.000 so they know what happened on camera obviously, but we 2:34:28.040 --> 2:34:30.640 can tell them all the good stuff that happened off camera. 2:34:30.760 --> 2:34:33.560 Get all the juicy details of every episode that you've 2:34:33.560 --> 2:34:36.280 been wondering about for decades. As nine O two one oh, 2:34:36.320 --> 2:34:39.560 super fan and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny 2:34:39.640 --> 2:34:43.160 and Tory, two reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from 2:34:43.160 --> 2:34:46.920 Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, 2:34:47.200 --> 2:34:51.080 you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the 2:34:51.240 --> 2:34:53.879 entire ten years that we filmed that show, and you 2:34:54.040 --> 2:34:57.200 remember absolutely nothing of the ten years that we filmed 2:34:57.560 --> 2:35:00.720 that show. Listen to nine O two one OMG on 2:35:00.760 --> 2:35:03.440 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 2:35:03.480 --> 2:35:07.039 get your podcasts. What's Up? Guys have a Shop Aloud 2:35:07.080 --> 2:35:08.760 and I am Troy Millions and we are the host 2:35:08.800 --> 2:35:11.720 of the Earnier Leisure podcast where we break down business 2:35:11.760 --> 2:35:14.840 models and examine the latest trends and finance. We hold 2:35:14.840 --> 2:35:16.840 court and have exclusive interviews with some of the biggest 2:35:16.879 --> 2:35:19.720 names of business, sport, and entertainment, from DJ Khaled to 2:35:19.760 --> 2:35:22.200 Mark Cuban, Rick Ross and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean our 2:35:22.240 --> 2:35:24.920 alumni list is expansive. Listen to as our guests reveal 2:35:24.959 --> 2:35:27.920 their business models, hardships and triumphs and their respective fields. 2:35:27.920 --> 2:35:29.879 The knowledge is in death and the questions are always 2:35:29.920 --> 2:35:32.440 delivered from your standpoint. We want to know what you 2:35:32.440 --> 2:35:35.240 want to know. We talked to the legends of business, 2:35:35.280 --> 2:35:37.959 sports and entertainment about how they got their start and 2:35:38.040 --> 2:35:40.520 most importantly, how they make their money. Earn your Leisia 2:35:40.640 --> 2:35:43.040 is a college business class mixed with pop culture. Want 2:35:43.040 --> 2:35:45.360 to learn about the real estate game, unclears, how the 2:35:45.400 --> 2:35:48.080 stock market works. We got you interested in starting a 2:35:48.080 --> 2:35:50.640 truck and company or vending machine business. Not really sure 2:35:50.680 --> 2:35:53.720 about how taxes or credit work. We got it all covered. 2:35:53.800 --> 2:35:56.920 The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Earnier 2:35:57.000 --> 2:36:00.360 Leisure on the Black Effect Podcast Network. I hear Radio, Apple, 2:36:00.560 --> 2:36:16.640 Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Uh, it's 2:36:16.680 --> 2:36:20.880 could It's happened? Could hear Robert Evans the podcast that 2:36:21.080 --> 2:36:24.280 is now begun. Um This is a show about how 2:36:24.360 --> 2:36:28.000 things are falling apart and occasionally how to how to 2:36:28.080 --> 2:36:30.160 maybe deal with that, maybe try to steer things in 2:36:30.200 --> 2:36:32.200 a better direction. We talked about a bunch of stuff 2:36:32.240 --> 2:36:35.640 today we're gonna be talking about more supply line um 2:36:35.720 --> 2:36:38.560 um stuff. And and in order to kind of introduce 2:36:38.680 --> 2:36:42.240 this episode, we wanted to bring in Alexis, who posted 2:36:42.440 --> 2:36:46.120 a threat on Twitter about some of their experiences in 2:36:46.160 --> 2:36:47.760 the industry in which they work that that we all 2:36:47.760 --> 2:36:49.760 found very interesting and so we just wanted to bring 2:36:49.760 --> 2:36:53.480 Alexis on and uh and and first off, have you 2:36:53.560 --> 2:36:55.760 kind of go over what what you went over in 2:36:55.760 --> 2:36:58.600 that threat and then um kind of zero win and 2:36:58.640 --> 2:37:01.800 talk about that. So Alexa Is welcome to the show. Hi, 2:37:01.920 --> 2:37:05.560 thanks for having me. Um, yeah, I'm gonna let you 2:37:05.560 --> 2:37:07.400 take it from here and then we'll we'll drill in 2:37:07.440 --> 2:37:10.040 once you once you get through your your piece, all right, 2:37:10.120 --> 2:37:11.879 So I'm just going to go ahead and read the 2:37:11.879 --> 2:37:14.440 thread that I posted and then yeah, we'll go from there. 2:37:14.920 --> 2:37:18.200 Uh So, labor shortage, discourse time. I work for a 2:37:18.200 --> 2:37:22.600 food manufacturing company, specifically bottling and canning various beverages, and 2:37:22.680 --> 2:37:26.800 we are desperately understaffed. The wages are competitive, but they 2:37:26.840 --> 2:37:30.080 can't keep anyone on after they hire them. Why because 2:37:30.120 --> 2:37:32.600 we're short on people. As soon as someone is trained, 2:37:32.640 --> 2:37:35.440 they start throwing massive amounts of mandatory over time on 2:37:35.480 --> 2:37:37.400 them to try and cover the missing pieces while they 2:37:37.440 --> 2:37:40.000 look for more people to hire in. Folks get burned 2:37:40.040 --> 2:37:42.520 out and quit. And this is where my hate of 2:37:42.560 --> 2:37:46.680 just in time manufacturing comes in. Obviously, in food manufacturing, 2:37:46.720 --> 2:37:48.640 you can't just stock a warehouse with stuff and let 2:37:48.640 --> 2:37:50.560 it sit for a year, But you can keep a 2:37:50.600 --> 2:37:54.039 couple of weeks worth stock rotating at all times if 2:37:54.080 --> 2:37:57.600 you devote the warehouse space, employees, et cetera to doing so. 2:37:58.120 --> 2:37:59.720 This would give you some flex time to train your 2:37:59.720 --> 2:38:01.879 new people without having to run everyone into the dirt. 2:38:02.720 --> 2:38:05.039 So even with a place that is offering decent money 2:38:05.040 --> 2:38:07.720 and benefits, because this is a union shop, we can't 2:38:07.800 --> 2:38:10.440 keep people because we're making a conscious decision to only 2:38:10.480 --> 2:38:12.520 ever have one to two days of stock on hand 2:38:12.520 --> 2:38:16.840 to increase profits. Meanwhile, thanks to lean manufacturing, we don't 2:38:16.879 --> 2:38:19.000 keep a ton of spare parts for our equipment on hand. 2:38:19.600 --> 2:38:22.640 Thanks to the supply chain just disruption, We've got packaging 2:38:22.680 --> 2:38:25.160 equipment that's been waiting on replacement parts for six months, 2:38:25.440 --> 2:38:29.000 which further fux our productivity doing to downtime, which makes 2:38:29.000 --> 2:38:31.400 the company's schedule even more overtime to try and make 2:38:31.480 --> 2:38:34.240 up for the lost cases from equipment downtime, which burns 2:38:34.240 --> 2:38:36.400 out more employees, which puts us in an even deeper 2:38:36.480 --> 2:38:39.200 labor hole. I've been warning about just in time being 2:38:39.200 --> 2:38:41.440 a time bomb in the making for over a decade now. 2:38:41.760 --> 2:38:45.600 When it works perfectly, you're fine. A single interruption causes 2:38:45.640 --> 2:38:47.959 cascade effects, and since everyone has been doing the just 2:38:48.080 --> 2:38:51.520 in time thing, there's zero slack anywhere in the system. 2:38:51.680 --> 2:38:54.080 Grocery stores don't have any extrasoda in the back they 2:38:54.120 --> 2:38:57.520 get behind demand builds up. Distribution doesn't have any pallets 2:38:57.520 --> 2:39:00.840 in the warehouse, ha, what warehouse, so they can't answer 2:39:00.840 --> 2:39:04.039 the surgeon demand from grocery stores. Manufacturing doesn't have spare 2:39:04.080 --> 2:39:06.960 parts for aging equipment, so we can't boost production. Spare 2:39:07.000 --> 2:39:09.760 parts makers don't have stock build up, so on and 2:39:09.800 --> 2:39:12.800 on it goes. The actual approximate cause of this is 2:39:12.840 --> 2:39:16.640 deregulation of capitalism that is incentivized quarterly profits and made 2:39:16.640 --> 2:39:18.600 long term thinking an athema to c e O s. 2:39:18.920 --> 2:39:21.960 But sure conservatives blame California for not letting old trucks 2:39:21.959 --> 2:39:25.360 offload at the ports. That's it, and that's that's the 2:39:25.520 --> 2:39:27.720 essence of my threat. I then plug my podcast at 2:39:27.720 --> 2:39:32.600 the end. Yeah, so I wanted to I'm curious as 2:39:32.600 --> 2:39:39.279 to kind of like, uh to what I'm trying to understand, 2:39:39.320 --> 2:39:42.600 like what the solution is. Like we've talked a bit about, Okay, 2:39:42.640 --> 2:39:46.039 just in time, manufacturing is is problematic for a lot 2:39:46.040 --> 2:39:49.480 of reasons. Um, Keeping more like on the shelves is 2:39:49.520 --> 2:39:51.400 going to allow you to avoid these crunches, and it's 2:39:51.440 --> 2:39:54.240 going to like make supply line issues like the ones 2:39:54.240 --> 2:39:57.280 we've experiencing since the start of the COVID pandemic less 2:39:57.280 --> 2:40:00.360 severe and less common. Um, but how do you actually 2:40:00.520 --> 2:40:02.480 how do you actually make that happen because I guess 2:40:02.480 --> 2:40:05.240 the traditional free market thing is that like, well, because 2:40:05.280 --> 2:40:08.120 this has been such a problem for companies, um, you know, 2:40:08.160 --> 2:40:11.360 they'll naturally change the system in order to avoid this 2:40:11.400 --> 2:40:16.120 in the future. I don't feel like that's likely to happen, um, 2:40:16.160 --> 2:40:18.600 And I'm wondering, like, what do we uh what what 2:40:18.760 --> 2:40:21.840 what do you think is the way forward here? Well, 2:40:21.879 --> 2:40:24.119 because some of the problem is is right now, like 2:40:24.440 --> 2:40:27.280 most most companies, you will pay taxes on stuff that 2:40:27.320 --> 2:40:31.320 you have stored in a warehouse, things like that. Um, 2:40:31.360 --> 2:40:35.000 So no company is going to voluntarily lower their profit 2:40:35.040 --> 2:40:38.240 margins if the other companies don't do it themselves as well. 2:40:38.400 --> 2:40:40.960 So really there's going to have to be some sort 2:40:41.000 --> 2:40:45.680 of forcing of companies to uh have that on hand. 2:40:46.160 --> 2:40:48.280 And I don't see just being able to write a 2:40:48.360 --> 2:40:50.879 law that says, oh, well, you're required to have this 2:40:51.000 --> 2:40:55.160 much backstock on hand, as as being a functional way 2:40:55.160 --> 2:40:58.440 to work. And really, as I'm sure you know, Robert, 2:40:58.440 --> 2:41:02.200 I know you're well aware the capitalism itself is kind 2:41:02.240 --> 2:41:05.959 of the problem. But as far as I guess, a 2:41:06.160 --> 2:41:10.000 solution to this sort of thing, um, you would have 2:41:10.160 --> 2:41:14.720 to disincentivize the quarterly profits above all in order to 2:41:14.760 --> 2:41:19.039 force companies back into long term thinking. Now, from a 2:41:19.120 --> 2:41:26.039 purely like mechanical standpoint, UM, I guess if you if 2:41:26.080 --> 2:41:30.680 you did something to incentivize companies having backstock or flex 2:41:30.720 --> 2:41:35.039 stock on on hand, that might help. But um, I mean, 2:41:35.160 --> 2:41:37.360 I'm just I'm just a cog in the machine getting 2:41:37.400 --> 2:41:40.560 ground up. So as far as like big solutions, that's 2:41:40.840 --> 2:41:43.440 I mean. I've been looking at it ever since I 2:41:43.440 --> 2:41:46.080 worked in a freaking casket factory and we started doing 2:41:46.160 --> 2:41:49.439 just in time there, And just every time that I've 2:41:49.480 --> 2:41:52.000 been in a place, a manufacturing place and seen it happen, 2:41:52.080 --> 2:41:54.840 I'm just like, oh, this is gonna go wrong because 2:41:54.920 --> 2:41:57.640 you can't you can do just in time if all 2:41:57.680 --> 2:42:00.680 of your suppliers are local, but have ving it stretched 2:42:00.680 --> 2:42:04.200 across the global supply chain, it just it's inevitably going 2:42:04.240 --> 2:42:08.080 to collapse in on itself. I'm sorry that I'm not 2:42:08.120 --> 2:42:10.800 more helpful. No, no, but I mean this is this 2:42:10.920 --> 2:42:13.320 is like the problem because there's a lot of reasons 2:42:13.360 --> 2:42:15.640 why this supply chain is global. Some of them are 2:42:15.680 --> 2:42:18.160 like labor related reasons, some of them are cost cunning, 2:42:18.160 --> 2:42:21.760 some of them are just like pure pragmatism. Um, but 2:42:21.840 --> 2:42:25.240 it's trying to like I I don't. I feel like 2:42:25.440 --> 2:42:27.120 it's it's one thing to say, like, well, part of 2:42:27.120 --> 2:42:29.520 the problem is that like all of these different pieces 2:42:29.520 --> 2:42:32.120 come from different countries, um. And there's a number of 2:42:32.120 --> 2:42:35.400 shady reasons for aspects of that UM. But it makes 2:42:35.560 --> 2:42:38.280 for greater problems when there's a Pilon shortage and then like, Okay, 2:42:38.320 --> 2:42:40.440 well what are we what are we gonna Are you 2:42:40.480 --> 2:42:43.680 suggesting that we make everything domestically because I don't feel 2:42:43.720 --> 2:42:48.280 like that's a realistic solution, um. Yeah, And it's like 2:42:48.320 --> 2:42:50.720 it's just it's I'm trying to get a handle on 2:42:51.800 --> 2:42:53.760 There's a couple of angles on this. There's there's what 2:42:53.800 --> 2:42:56.480 we think is going to happen, um, and then there's 2:42:56.480 --> 2:42:58.280 the question of, like, is there a way that the 2:42:58.320 --> 2:43:02.240 system as it exists could make this whole thing less vulnerable? 2:43:02.280 --> 2:43:03.800 And and a lot of ways that's going to be 2:43:03.920 --> 2:43:05.920 separate from the question of what would be better for 2:43:05.959 --> 2:43:08.000 everyone to happen, because a lot of what would be 2:43:08.000 --> 2:43:10.199 better for everyone to happen is a white A significant 2:43:10.280 --> 2:43:13.040 chunk of these things that we have constantly stocked on 2:43:13.080 --> 2:43:16.520 the shelves are no longer parts of our life. Right, Um, 2:43:16.560 --> 2:43:18.039 there's a lot of things that are made that we 2:43:18.120 --> 2:43:20.880 do not need and that are there's an environmental cost 2:43:20.920 --> 2:43:23.879 and a show social cost and YadA YadA YadA. Um. 2:43:23.920 --> 2:43:27.680 But I guess first, I'm kind of curious to drilling in, 2:43:27.720 --> 2:43:30.080 Like how realistic do you think it is that the 2:43:30.160 --> 2:43:33.320 system as it exists is going to like mitigate this 2:43:33.400 --> 2:43:35.760 and come up with better ways to to do this 2:43:35.840 --> 2:43:38.879 that render us less vulnerable to the supply crunches? Like 2:43:39.040 --> 2:43:42.480 is there? I don't see a great financial incentive in 2:43:42.520 --> 2:43:44.840 it for them yet, um, because they don't seem to 2:43:44.840 --> 2:43:48.880 be hurting, right, Like that's that's the thing. Well actually, 2:43:49.200 --> 2:43:51.400 and and again, please keep in mind this is limited 2:43:51.400 --> 2:43:54.400 anecdotal evidence. Yeah, because it's gonna be definitely John Deer, 2:43:54.480 --> 2:43:57.320 I know, was making record profits before all the this 2:43:57.480 --> 2:44:01.039 union stuff happened, but like that's not every one, right. 2:44:01.480 --> 2:44:04.720 So again, I work for a soda manufacturer. So every 2:44:04.760 --> 2:44:09.320 time you're in you know, enjoying your your Schmetzy Schmola 2:44:09.480 --> 2:44:13.440 or your or your Schmago whatever whatever, I'm not going 2:44:13.480 --> 2:44:15.640 to explain which company I work for because I don't 2:44:15.640 --> 2:44:19.199 want to get in trouble. Um, And we're we're actually 2:44:19.240 --> 2:44:22.519 a captive bottler, which means that it's a separate company, 2:44:22.560 --> 2:44:26.000 but we work for the big soda corporation. I think 2:44:26.000 --> 2:44:30.000 that in certain instances those things will change, because, for example, 2:44:30.120 --> 2:44:33.360 just last week, we had one of our four lines 2:44:33.400 --> 2:44:37.280 go down of our production capacity went down because we 2:44:37.360 --> 2:44:40.040 had a motor burnout on the rollers that would move 2:44:40.080 --> 2:44:42.200 a full palette out to be picked up by a forklift, 2:44:42.920 --> 2:44:47.520 and there was no replacement motor in stock, and so 2:44:47.800 --> 2:44:53.000 we had I think forty eight hours of downtime on this. Now, 2:44:53.600 --> 2:44:56.280 all the way up at the top the company executives, 2:44:56.320 --> 2:44:58.879 you know, we're one of thirty some plants, they don't 2:44:58.879 --> 2:45:02.320 care about why it was down, just that it was down. 2:45:02.440 --> 2:45:06.360 So in our position here, um, the people a little 2:45:06.400 --> 2:45:09.360 higher up the food chain than me are insisting like, hey, 2:45:09.720 --> 2:45:11.520 we've been after you guys for months that we need 2:45:11.600 --> 2:45:14.680 spares like this. And I think that as that sort 2:45:14.720 --> 2:45:19.360 of stuff happens, as it cuts into potential future profits, 2:45:19.879 --> 2:45:22.039 you know, it's not dropping their profits, but it's keeping 2:45:22.040 --> 2:45:25.480 them from being even higher, maybe certain companies are going 2:45:25.520 --> 2:45:27.720 to be like, Okay, maybe we do need a couple 2:45:27.760 --> 2:45:30.640 more spares on the shelves. As far as on the 2:45:30.680 --> 2:45:33.280 production side of it, I don't see that happening. I 2:45:33.320 --> 2:45:36.000 think we're still going to be shipping out palettes of 2:45:36.760 --> 2:45:41.480 you know, palettes of corn syrup infected carbonated water as 2:45:41.520 --> 2:45:44.200 fast as we can make them. Which you and you 2:45:44.240 --> 2:45:46.640 were talking about the environmental cost, like you do not 2:45:46.760 --> 2:45:48.800 want to know how much water it takes to make 2:45:49.040 --> 2:45:52.720 a single leader of soda. You really don't um but 2:45:54.520 --> 2:45:58.040 on this on the production like input side, I think 2:45:58.080 --> 2:46:01.039 that companies are going to start stocking fair parts because 2:46:01.840 --> 2:46:03.879 it has been and I still have friends who work 2:46:03.920 --> 2:46:06.120 for other companies that I used to work for. It 2:46:06.200 --> 2:46:09.440 has been all throughout the system, and I live in 2:46:09.480 --> 2:46:13.120 the Midwest. Every company is going through this where they're 2:46:13.120 --> 2:46:17.439 having huge amounts of downtime because the things as small 2:46:17.480 --> 2:46:20.600 as a gasket or an O ring are not on 2:46:20.680 --> 2:46:23.840 the shelf, and they're finally companies are finally going to 2:46:23.879 --> 2:46:26.400 listen to what their maintenance people have been screaming at them, 2:46:26.400 --> 2:46:29.880 that we can't just stagger along and then oh, well 2:46:29.879 --> 2:46:32.160 it's next day delivery, yeah, and then you freak out 2:46:32.240 --> 2:46:34.800 that this line was down for twenty four hours. Now 2:46:34.800 --> 2:46:37.360 that it's not even next day delivery, it's next week delivery. 2:46:37.400 --> 2:46:39.000 I think that side of it they're going to probably 2:46:39.000 --> 2:46:43.560 try and fix. But the other side, shipping to the consumer, 2:46:44.440 --> 2:46:47.720 I really don't see that they're going to change that. Yeah, 2:46:47.760 --> 2:46:50.840 I mean that makes that makes sense, And we are 2:46:51.560 --> 2:46:53.760 you are kind of lad thinking about this inevitably to 2:46:53.840 --> 2:46:57.240 like two conclusions. One of them is that I have 2:46:57.400 --> 2:47:00.959 my I'm sure parts of this The system will adapt, 2:47:01.000 --> 2:47:02.960 as it already has been, in fact, which is why I, 2:47:03.080 --> 2:47:06.240 like you haven't seen toilet paper run out as bad 2:47:06.280 --> 2:47:08.280 as it did at the start of the pandemic. Again, right, 2:47:08.320 --> 2:47:10.880 there is a degree to which the system is capable 2:47:10.879 --> 2:47:14.200 of adjustment, but kind of in a larger sense, um, 2:47:15.600 --> 2:47:18.840 this is number one. I'm kind of left with the 2:47:18.879 --> 2:47:21.520 feeling that because of the way the system was set 2:47:21.600 --> 2:47:24.800 up and the fact that it was disrupted so severely, 2:47:25.200 --> 2:47:28.120 it's kind of impossible to get a percent back on track, 2:47:28.280 --> 2:47:31.080 especially considering the disruptions are going to continue, not just 2:47:31.160 --> 2:47:34.959 waves of COVID, but you know, in natural disasters and whatnot, 2:47:35.040 --> 2:47:38.760 shortages of of things like truck drivers, Like these different 2:47:38.760 --> 2:47:40.879 little hits are going to keep coming, and I just 2:47:40.920 --> 2:47:43.880 don't know that wherever going to like catch up everywhere 2:47:44.160 --> 2:47:48.200 enough that like shortages of some sort aren't an aspect 2:47:48.200 --> 2:47:50.039 of our lives kind of forever. And this is one 2:47:50.080 --> 2:47:51.680 of those things that if you've spent a lot of 2:47:51.720 --> 2:47:53.720 time outside of the United States, that's something a lot 2:47:53.720 --> 2:47:55.720 of people have been dealing with for years. It's just 2:47:55.720 --> 2:47:57.920 not something Americans are used to dealing with. And I 2:47:57.959 --> 2:48:01.360 think I kind of feel like it's just where it 2:48:01.480 --> 2:48:04.680 is now. Like I don't feel like every aspect of 2:48:04.680 --> 2:48:08.000 our our production and consumption system is going to get 2:48:08.040 --> 2:48:10.520 back where it to where it was February. I think 2:48:10.520 --> 2:48:14.280 maybe that's never happening again. No, absolutely, it will not 2:48:14.440 --> 2:48:18.320 ever happening. You were saying earlier that you know, there's 2:48:18.360 --> 2:48:21.040 some practical reasons for the global supply chain. Like one 2:48:21.080 --> 2:48:23.360 of the things that we've had such hard time getting 2:48:23.360 --> 2:48:27.039 in is any of our concentrates that contain real vanilla. 2:48:27.120 --> 2:48:30.920 Obviously we can't grow vanilla in the United States. Yeah, 2:48:30.920 --> 2:48:33.000 that's the thing you have to I mean, that's part 2:48:33.040 --> 2:48:37.000 of why colonialism exists, right, you need to go get vanilla. Yeah. 2:48:37.320 --> 2:48:40.240 So yeah, so, like there are certain things that are 2:48:40.240 --> 2:48:43.760 going to be stay have to stay global if we're 2:48:43.760 --> 2:48:46.240 going to continue to make the things that we make 2:48:47.000 --> 2:48:50.600 and just from my side of it, being able to see, oh, well, 2:48:50.600 --> 2:48:53.320 why can't we get this concentrated in? Oh because it 2:48:53.360 --> 2:48:55.600 has vanilla as an ingredient, and there's been a bunch 2:48:55.600 --> 2:48:57.920 of draughts and ship and so vanilla is in a crunch, 2:48:57.959 --> 2:49:01.480 you know that sort of thing. So I just, um, 2:49:01.600 --> 2:49:04.320 you're right in that. Yeah, we're going to have shortages. 2:49:04.400 --> 2:49:07.480 There's it's you know, and it's not just the mechanical 2:49:07.520 --> 2:49:09.720 side on ours. It's like we can't get cans in, 2:49:09.920 --> 2:49:12.640 we can't get concentrated in, we can't you know. Whatever 2:49:12.720 --> 2:49:14.480 it is that we can't get in is going to 2:49:14.520 --> 2:49:17.600 slow us down, and demand will build up. I did 2:49:17.640 --> 2:49:19.560 have somebody in that thread respond and say, I don't 2:49:19.560 --> 2:49:22.440 see how demand for soda will build up. And I'm like, now, 2:49:22.480 --> 2:49:24.879 I have a friend who's like a diet Dr. Pepper fiend, 2:49:24.920 --> 2:49:26.920 and as soon as diet Dr. Pepper shows up, now 2:49:26.959 --> 2:49:31.320 she buys like packs. Demand will absolutely build up for stuff. 2:49:31.320 --> 2:49:35.040 When people feel like they're being deprived of something, when 2:49:35.080 --> 2:49:37.320 it becomes available, they're going to hoard it as best 2:49:37.320 --> 2:49:42.400 they can. Yeah, And that's again with soda, just kind 2:49:42.400 --> 2:49:45.920 of an annoyance. Although that can because individual people can 2:49:46.000 --> 2:49:50.240 react in extreme ways, can snowball. I'm not gonna be 2:49:50.320 --> 2:49:52.480 surprised if one of these days we have somebody shoot 2:49:52.520 --> 2:49:56.280 up a fucking grocery store because they're whatever was out. Um. 2:49:56.320 --> 2:49:59.200 But that's also not a necessity, and I think that, 2:49:59.320 --> 2:50:03.520 like the concern is that, especially when you you look 2:50:03.520 --> 2:50:05.320 at stuff, like you know, there's a couple of states 2:50:05.320 --> 2:50:07.280 that had like their wheat harvest and corn harvest that 2:50:07.320 --> 2:50:09.600 were like half or less than half of normal in 2:50:09.920 --> 2:50:11.959 big chunks of a rack. It was like down by 2:50:12.000 --> 2:50:16.840 I think like seventy percent um. Like these massive shortages 2:50:16.959 --> 2:50:21.320 of growing basic food stuffs, um. And that's all that's 2:50:21.360 --> 2:50:24.119 all tight into this, Like it's not the same business 2:50:24.120 --> 2:50:26.320 that you're on, but it's all tied into aspects of this, 2:50:26.400 --> 2:50:28.400 and it's all tied into like a lot of our 2:50:28.440 --> 2:50:31.080 ability to get that food out of the field is 2:50:31.120 --> 2:50:35.279 reliant upon different kinds of mechanical harvesting equipment. The materials 2:50:35.280 --> 2:50:38.040 to which to like fix and replace it are often 2:50:38.280 --> 2:50:40.400 like caught up in this whole just in time problem 2:50:40.440 --> 2:50:42.160 because they don't make enough of them and sometimes they 2:50:42.160 --> 2:50:43.840 don't have them in stores, and then there's like a 2:50:43.879 --> 2:50:46.560 strike at John deer, and so more aren't getting made, 2:50:46.560 --> 2:50:48.520 and so there's not what you need to repair the 2:50:48.560 --> 2:50:51.240 equipment in time to get stuff out of the field everywhere, 2:50:51.440 --> 2:50:53.080 and in a year when you already have a reduction 2:50:53.120 --> 2:50:56.160 of harvests like that cuts down on it further. Um, 2:50:56.280 --> 2:50:58.840 Like I I think, I don't know, it's it's this. 2:51:00.360 --> 2:51:02.120 There's always a couple of things to look at, which 2:51:02.160 --> 2:51:03.960 is like number one, as we've talked about, like how 2:51:04.040 --> 2:51:07.480 is the system going to try to handle this? What 2:51:07.480 --> 2:51:09.080 ways are they going to be successful, what ways they're 2:51:09.080 --> 2:51:11.120 going to fail? What things are you going to have 2:51:11.240 --> 2:51:13.840 to endure? And what things? I think what I want 2:51:13.879 --> 2:51:15.160 to talk about next is like what things do we 2:51:15.200 --> 2:51:19.760 need to change, uh, in order to like as communities 2:51:19.840 --> 2:51:21.960 be more resilient to this stuff, which you know has 2:51:22.040 --> 2:51:24.440 less to do with soda, which again is not a necessity, 2:51:24.480 --> 2:51:27.560 but more to do with figuring out how to anticipate 2:51:27.600 --> 2:51:33.400 and endure supply line disruptions right absolutely, And and while 2:51:33.440 --> 2:51:36.440 I'm currently in soda, I have been in everything from 2:51:36.440 --> 2:51:40.920 automotive too, I think, as or casket manufacturer. So you know, 2:51:41.400 --> 2:51:43.119 but when I can go through a casket a week, 2:51:43.160 --> 2:51:47.720 you know, especially when you're driving your Yeah, when I'm 2:51:47.760 --> 2:51:50.760 drunk driving in a boy right right through a trailer park, 2:51:50.879 --> 2:51:53.000 I mean you're you're I mean your casket order has 2:51:53.040 --> 2:51:55.039 got to be through the roof. It is it is 2:51:55.440 --> 2:51:57.880 a lot a lot of people. Yeah, I mean I 2:51:58.280 --> 2:52:02.600 do actually wonder how um, I mean like, I do 2:52:02.640 --> 2:52:05.920 actually wonder how much like the casket industry and something 2:52:05.959 --> 2:52:08.160 that has been affected by the by like by the 2:52:08.200 --> 2:52:11.560 pandemic with the you know, an influx of dead people, 2:52:12.080 --> 2:52:14.280 and how that's how how that's affective. Think that's something 2:52:14.320 --> 2:52:15.920 I've been wondering about, but I have not actually spent 2:52:16.080 --> 2:52:20.080 time looking into. I can't speak to the pandemic specifically. 2:52:20.280 --> 2:52:22.959 I quit. I quit the casket industry in two thousand 2:52:22.959 --> 2:52:26.440 and eight, but I do recall my boss, the owner 2:52:26.920 --> 2:52:29.480 at the time, being very very upset that Hurricane Katrina 2:52:29.560 --> 2:52:33.440 had a lower death toll than he anticipated because she 2:52:33.480 --> 2:52:36.000 had over ordered the sheet metal to make the caskets, 2:52:36.160 --> 2:52:38.440 and he was very piste off about adding all that 2:52:38.440 --> 2:52:43.480 extra stock because they were just society. Yes, so that's 2:52:43.600 --> 2:52:46.400 that's good to hear. Yeah. Great. He was in a 2:52:46.440 --> 2:52:50.080 bad mood for like a month after Katrina because it 2:52:50.120 --> 2:52:53.359 hadn't reached his expectation. Well, sure, that's a real problem 2:52:53.440 --> 2:52:58.360 for for absolutely he's got that's all the sympathy, critical support. 2:52:58.879 --> 2:53:02.840 I mean, that job was grim. I'm just gonna say 2:53:02.879 --> 2:53:06.119 that it sounds like it. I I have a through 2:53:06.160 --> 2:53:09.200 a through a loved one, a connection to somebody who 2:53:09.600 --> 2:53:12.160 is like works for a company that makes body bags 2:53:12.600 --> 2:53:19.160 and was amazing for them. They did incredible in um. 2:53:19.280 --> 2:53:21.520 I didn't hear any ghoulish stories. It's just like, yeah, 2:53:21.560 --> 2:53:23.720 of course you guys made a bunch of extra money. Like, 2:53:25.200 --> 2:53:29.320 sounds like that was great for you, putting it, putting 2:53:29.320 --> 2:53:32.200 in a mental note to go through a bunch of 2:53:32.200 --> 2:53:34.600 the campaign contributions of people who make body bags and 2:53:34.680 --> 2:53:37.160 check if they're supporting anti mess Yes, yeah, see if 2:53:37.160 --> 2:53:40.120 big corps got into this at all, Yeah, I mean, honestly, 2:53:40.160 --> 2:53:42.040 the thing that the thing to do is, you know, 2:53:42.080 --> 2:53:44.160 I'm not a big fan of the stock market in general, 2:53:44.240 --> 2:53:46.439 but next time, the next time that there's a pandemic, 2:53:46.520 --> 2:53:49.400 find out which companies make body bags on the stock 2:53:49.440 --> 2:53:51.240 market and invest in those as soon as as soon 2:53:51.240 --> 2:53:53.160 as the pandemic starts. I mean, I can tell you 2:53:53.200 --> 2:53:55.720 what I'm I'm putting money into big corps as soon 2:53:55.760 --> 2:53:58.119 as uh as soon as the next pandemic hits, that's 2:53:58.160 --> 2:54:05.960 absolutely gonna happen. Y oh boy, all right, yeah that's graam. Yeah, 2:54:06.240 --> 2:54:09.760 it's fine. There's a reason why after after I started 2:54:09.800 --> 2:54:14.280 working there, I immediately told my husband, Hey, make sure 2:54:14.320 --> 2:54:18.879 if I die before you, I'm cremated. So yeah, I 2:54:18.920 --> 2:54:21.000 don't want to give these monsters any of my mind. 2:54:21.120 --> 2:54:23.360 What I what I'm looking into is just full full 2:54:23.400 --> 2:54:26.040 body stuffing that people can pose me around it. But 2:54:26.120 --> 2:54:28.760 that's a set for topic. Yeah, you talk about that 2:54:28.840 --> 2:54:31.879 a lot, Garrison. What I did want to mention is like, actually, 2:54:32.200 --> 2:54:34.800 when you were talking about how they hire in a 2:54:34.800 --> 2:54:37.760 lot of employees and they make them were horrible hours 2:54:37.800 --> 2:54:39.920 and then they you know, they quitness is kind of 2:54:39.959 --> 2:54:43.000 a constant kind of process, and like this isn't exclusive 2:54:43.040 --> 2:54:45.480 to that industry at all. Think one of the worst 2:54:45.480 --> 2:54:48.959 offenders of this is actually the Postal Service. UM. I 2:54:49.000 --> 2:54:51.240 think that the Postal Service has like the lowest employee 2:54:51.240 --> 2:54:55.080 satisfaction out of any shipping company. Um And like my, my, 2:54:55.080 --> 2:54:56.879 my fault. I worked for the Postal Service for a bit. 2:54:56.920 --> 2:55:00.160 And when you first join up, you join as like 2:55:00.480 --> 2:55:03.440 you join us a on like a non career employee 2:55:03.480 --> 2:55:05.440 path and then you can get promoted to a career 2:55:05.440 --> 2:55:08.440 employee path after a few years. But the turnaround for 2:55:08.480 --> 2:55:12.240 the non career employee paths is massive, Like local branches 2:55:12.280 --> 2:55:15.120 can stay after like people who start working at the 2:55:15.160 --> 2:55:17.840 Postal Service will end up quitting within the year. Now 2:55:17.920 --> 2:55:19.840 that number can be different based on like nationally and 2:55:19.840 --> 2:55:21.560 for based on like you know, based on what states 2:55:21.560 --> 2:55:24.000 you're in, but but across the board, it's it's always 2:55:24.080 --> 2:55:29.000 around at least fifty for employee turnaround for people who 2:55:29.080 --> 2:55:32.199 join up the Postal Service on these like a city 2:55:32.240 --> 2:55:36.680 carrier assistant positions. It's fascinating, yeah, because because when when 2:55:36.680 --> 2:55:38.680 you when you're a non career employee path, you have 2:55:38.720 --> 2:55:40.320 to work seven days a week and you can be 2:55:40.360 --> 2:55:42.840 called into work basically any time, usually working around ten 2:55:42.920 --> 2:55:45.360 to twelve hour days. All of the career employees, all 2:55:45.400 --> 2:55:49.520 of the sounds like I put you, but like all 2:55:49.600 --> 2:55:52.080 of all of like all of like the regular carriers 2:55:52.080 --> 2:55:53.800 get to work like their specific route and that's it. 2:55:54.040 --> 2:55:56.360 That's their whole day. For the for the people who 2:55:56.400 --> 2:55:58.680 are new to the job, they're forced to work tons 2:55:58.760 --> 2:56:02.320 of routes um fill in whenever someone else can't, and 2:56:02.760 --> 2:56:05.560 we constantly be doing over time um and working like 2:56:05.680 --> 2:56:08.520 basically NonStop NonStop with only like two like only two 2:56:08.520 --> 2:56:12.000 holidays off a year or something. It's it's pretty intense, um, 2:56:12.280 --> 2:56:14.760 which is why you know, when the postal service comes 2:56:15.000 --> 2:56:18.120 have problems and because and and because there's so few 2:56:18.320 --> 2:56:21.400 there's generally not tons of employees. I mean like there 2:56:21.520 --> 2:56:23.400 is lots like comparedively like like like the Postal Service 2:56:23.480 --> 2:56:25.840 is one of the bigger employers in in the whole country. 2:56:26.120 --> 2:56:29.720 But for people when when when employees drop off, filling 2:56:29.720 --> 2:56:32.080 those positions can be really hard in times of like crisis. 2:56:32.200 --> 2:56:33.480 So like you know, last year, when there's all these 2:56:33.560 --> 2:56:35.720 problems with the Postal service, all of these kind of 2:56:35.800 --> 2:56:38.760 issues around the supply chain and how people treat their workers, 2:56:39.000 --> 2:56:41.680 all of them like like you know, compound to create 2:56:41.840 --> 2:56:44.160 one like much bigger problem which we saw last year 2:56:44.200 --> 2:56:46.960 with postal service and like late in like the late summer, UM. 2:56:47.160 --> 2:56:48.600 So I just find it interesting how it's like, you know, 2:56:48.680 --> 2:56:51.080 the same issues around like how we treat workers is 2:56:51.680 --> 2:56:53.840 adding on to this problem of like supply chains and 2:56:53.879 --> 2:56:56.680 getting stuff delivered and all this kind of stuff. And 2:56:56.959 --> 2:56:59.720 so what what I find interesting there is, so you're 2:56:59.800 --> 2:57:03.960 you know, when we're talking about the employee issue, and yeah, 2:57:04.040 --> 2:57:07.360 it's sure. So I've been Uh, the plant I was 2:57:07.440 --> 2:57:10.240 working in, which is twenty minutes from my house, closed down, 2:57:10.400 --> 2:57:13.440 and now I'm working ninety miles away literally an hour 2:57:13.560 --> 2:57:19.640 and I am i am working four twelves a week, 2:57:19.720 --> 2:57:22.080 and I'm crashing at my parents house, which they live 2:57:22.120 --> 2:57:25.480 about sixty miles away. So it's a little bit better, Um, 2:57:25.800 --> 2:57:29.440 but also suck. Yeah, and my parents are hard right 2:57:29.480 --> 2:57:34.240 evangelicals who do not agree with you know, so that's fun. 2:57:34.600 --> 2:57:37.560 But um, the plant that I was in was a 2:57:37.680 --> 2:57:40.000 non union plant and the one I'm in now is 2:57:40.040 --> 2:57:42.520 a union plant. And one of the things that I've 2:57:42.560 --> 2:57:46.520 noticed that's actually kind of different is for once in 2:57:46.680 --> 2:57:50.000 the non union plant, things were actually better because what 2:57:50.120 --> 2:57:52.000 we could do what what what could be done is 2:57:52.600 --> 2:57:55.240 all right, we're all working seven days a week. We 2:57:55.360 --> 2:57:57.720 have enough staffing that if nobody calls in, we have 2:57:57.920 --> 2:58:00.600 one spare person who normally goes around and gives breaks 2:58:00.640 --> 2:58:03.320 and stuff like that. Well we could you know, basically 2:58:03.520 --> 2:58:06.600 all take turns taking a day off during that seven 2:58:06.680 --> 2:58:09.120 day week. At the union plant that I'm at now, 2:58:09.240 --> 2:58:13.640 though it's all seniority based, so any time that they 2:58:13.680 --> 2:58:16.080 force over time, they go from the bottom of the 2:58:16.160 --> 2:58:20.160 seniority list on up. So the people the people who 2:58:20.200 --> 2:58:23.039 are being forced into those which I described in the thread, 2:58:23.160 --> 2:58:25.720 I think it was it was split off in the thread. 2:58:25.800 --> 2:58:29.760 But the people who were being forced to stay over 2:58:29.879 --> 2:58:32.680 four hours and then come in four hours early, where 2:58:32.720 --> 2:58:36.000 you oh, you were working six to two, now you're working, 2:58:36.760 --> 2:58:40.720 you know, six to six, and then you're coming in 2:58:41.400 --> 2:58:43.960 at two in the morning instead of six in the 2:58:44.040 --> 2:58:46.560 morning the next day are always the people who are 2:58:46.600 --> 2:58:50.360 the lowest on the seniority list, which is something say 2:58:50.400 --> 2:58:52.400 the same thing with the postal service. Yeah, yeah, I 2:58:52.400 --> 2:58:54.960 mean it's not there's a number of different I mean 2:58:54.959 --> 2:58:56.920 I've heard that complaint from a couple of different union 2:58:57.000 --> 2:59:01.080 gigs um and it's yeah, it's a problem. Yeah, and 2:59:01.280 --> 2:59:03.760 it's that's why we get these new people and they 2:59:03.800 --> 2:59:06.520 get trained up and now they're trained and they're signed off, 2:59:07.240 --> 2:59:09.879 and then they immediately go from because when you're training, 2:59:09.920 --> 2:59:12.360 you're not you can't train on over time or whatever. 2:59:12.840 --> 2:59:15.840 But now it's oh, okay, well now you're working every weekend. 2:59:16.000 --> 2:59:19.679 You're being forced over, you're being forced in early, just NonStop, 2:59:20.360 --> 2:59:23.800 and so yeah, they get trained for a month and 2:59:23.879 --> 2:59:27.360 then a month after that they quit because they went 2:59:27.480 --> 2:59:32.560 from working a relatively sane amount to an absurd amount. 2:59:33.040 --> 2:59:35.760 We went fifty eight days at one point without a 2:59:35.879 --> 2:59:39.000 day off, but my dad went like almost I think 2:59:39.040 --> 2:59:41.119 like three hundred days without with without a day off 2:59:41.160 --> 2:59:43.640 when he started the Postal Service. A kind of funny 2:59:43.680 --> 2:59:45.800 thing is like when you hear the Postal Service talking 2:59:45.879 --> 2:59:47.480 with this, like from the in their own reports and 2:59:47.520 --> 2:59:49.840 on their own website, what they find a problem with 2:59:50.040 --> 2:59:52.480 is not not the turnaround in and of itself, but 2:59:52.640 --> 2:59:56.040 how they're basically wasting money on training for people that 2:59:56.080 --> 2:59:58.160 don't end up working. It's like that is their main 2:59:58.240 --> 3:00:01.000 concern is that they're spending all this money on training 3:00:01.320 --> 3:00:04.560 for people that don't stick around often. Um, And like, yeah, 3:00:04.640 --> 3:00:07.480 well maybe you should address why they don't stick around often. 3:00:07.840 --> 3:00:11.240 That's that seems to be kind of the actual issue here. Yeah, 3:00:12.280 --> 3:00:14.240 And what I've been pushing for, and I know this 3:00:14.360 --> 3:00:16.000 is more on the labor side than on the on 3:00:16.080 --> 3:00:18.760 the supply chain side that we were focusing on. I've 3:00:18.840 --> 3:00:22.039 been pushing for instead of three shifts where we keep 3:00:22.120 --> 3:00:25.039 just getting just hammered with this stuff. I want us 3:00:25.120 --> 3:00:29.200 to do four shifts, twelve hour days and do like 3:00:29.280 --> 3:00:31.640 a two on two off, three on three off type 3:00:31.720 --> 3:00:36.119 swing shift where you have like one shift that works. 3:00:36.400 --> 3:00:38.560 You know, you work three days one week, four days 3:00:38.640 --> 3:00:40.560 the next week, and you work twelve hour days, but 3:00:40.680 --> 3:00:42.800 really you wind up getting a bunch of days off, 3:00:42.959 --> 3:00:45.360 you know, like that's if you're gonna work seven days 3:00:45.400 --> 3:00:47.400 a week, that's the best way to do it in 3:00:47.520 --> 3:00:50.840 my opinion. I mean, like you know, it's there's a 3:00:50.879 --> 3:00:52.840 lot of resistance to what will well, then we have 3:00:52.920 --> 3:00:55.400 to hire these extra people. Will you're hiring those people anyway, 3:00:55.400 --> 3:00:57.760 and then they're quitting. I mean they're not even getting 3:00:57.800 --> 3:01:00.840 your value out of them. Slave driver. I mean, like 3:01:01.280 --> 3:01:02.720 you said, this is more. This is more than labor 3:01:02.800 --> 3:01:05.080 side than the supply chain side. But honestly, these are 3:01:05.160 --> 3:01:07.480 these are like the same side, right, because if you 3:01:07.520 --> 3:01:09.400 don't have employees like this is you know, this is 3:01:09.480 --> 3:01:12.080 a fundamental you know thing, and like how capitalism works, right, 3:01:12.280 --> 3:01:14.440 you need to have you know, workers to make there 3:01:14.480 --> 3:01:16.800 have be any value at all. Right, So if there's 3:01:16.840 --> 3:01:19.400 if there isn't any people to working, then there is 3:01:19.440 --> 3:01:21.480 no supply chain, it's gone because if we need people 3:01:21.480 --> 3:01:23.600 to do it, both on the production side and both 3:01:23.680 --> 3:01:25.800 in like the transportation side. That's like you know ups 3:01:26.240 --> 3:01:28.640 um usps, you know FedEx, you know, so like the 3:01:28.879 --> 3:01:30.720 mail carriers and stuff is very important to all of 3:01:30.800 --> 3:01:33.640 this because you you you need in order for for 3:01:33.720 --> 3:01:35.040 there to be a supply chain, there needs to be 3:01:35.120 --> 3:01:37.560 the chain part right where you carry it from one 3:01:37.560 --> 3:01:40.440 place to to another. So it's both, it's both on 3:01:40.480 --> 3:01:43.200 the production side and on the transportation side. For how 3:01:43.520 --> 3:01:46.840 all these problems, you know? Yeah, and one of them, 3:01:46.920 --> 3:01:49.320 one of the things that I in the replies to 3:01:49.400 --> 3:01:54.800 my thread which I got into was that um part 3:01:54.879 --> 3:01:59.160 of the the only slack in just in time manufacturing 3:02:00.280 --> 3:02:03.760 the employees. They've pulled all of the slack out of 3:02:03.840 --> 3:02:06.440 the system on the mechanical side and on the production 3:02:06.520 --> 3:02:08.800 side of it, on all the physical side. The only 3:02:08.879 --> 3:02:12.400 slack left is people, and they have stretched us all 3:02:12.560 --> 3:02:17.039 to the absolute breaking point. Now I'm lucky relatively speaking 3:02:17.080 --> 3:02:20.640 in that I'm salary, so like I'm more on the 3:02:20.760 --> 3:02:25.160 inventory side of things, so I'm not doing the hourly production, 3:02:25.240 --> 3:02:26.680 seven day a week thing, like I said, I work 3:02:26.720 --> 3:02:31.360 four twelves UM, but I can still you know, and 3:02:31.440 --> 3:02:34.600 that that's this job. Every other previous job not the 3:02:34.680 --> 3:02:38.240 same thing, but I can still see where they've taken out. 3:02:38.440 --> 3:02:41.840 Like once again, we used to have spares on the 3:02:41.879 --> 3:02:44.000 shelf so that when something broke down we could fix 3:02:44.080 --> 3:02:46.680 the machine and keep running. Now instead of the spare, 3:02:47.000 --> 3:02:50.560 the spare is people working weekends. That's the spare part. 3:02:51.280 --> 3:02:54.480 And that makes total sense, right, You're you're the capitalist. 3:02:56.000 --> 3:02:59.199 A better spare that is a part on the shelf 3:02:59.360 --> 3:03:01.280 costs you in terms of like you need to have 3:03:01.400 --> 3:03:03.280 that space, that's extra rent you're paying. You need to 3:03:03.320 --> 3:03:07.360 have bought that part. Having your people just killed themselves 3:03:07.480 --> 3:03:11.039 is much cheaper. You can sort of misuse the marks here, right, 3:03:11.160 --> 3:03:13.600 Or like one of Mark's things is like, okay, well 3:03:14.040 --> 3:03:15.960 you know you have you have this increased machinery. You 3:03:16.000 --> 3:03:18.000 have this increased machinery, but that means you're producing less 3:03:18.080 --> 3:03:20.600 value because you know, you you put more people out 3:03:20.600 --> 3:03:22.080 of work. Was like, okay, well what if what if 3:03:22.120 --> 3:03:25.600 we just we re extend the work day again and 3:03:25.720 --> 3:03:27.720 sort of you know, reverse all of the gains that 3:03:27.760 --> 3:03:30.520 have been happening. Well, okay, I say, haven't happening. Reverse 3:03:30.600 --> 3:03:33.240 all the gains that happened between about nineteen thirty and 3:03:33.320 --> 3:03:35.960 like nineteen seventy and just oh well, what if we 3:03:36.000 --> 3:03:38.600 just make everyone for a twelve hour days again? And 3:03:39.080 --> 3:03:40.760 that that was, you know, one of those The thing 3:03:40.800 --> 3:03:43.080 that would struck me both listening to this and reading 3:03:43.120 --> 3:03:46.520 the threat was that it's it's not even just wages. 3:03:46.520 --> 3:03:50.440 It's just it's it's it's it's just the fundamental power rebalance. 3:03:51.200 --> 3:03:53.160 And then it's a fundamental power and balance. It's gotten 3:03:53.240 --> 3:03:56.680 so bad that even like you know, the the like 3:03:56.800 --> 3:03:58.560 sometimes the remains of the union system, it's like it's 3:03:58.560 --> 3:04:02.160 not even you know, the the unions like in this 3:04:02.240 --> 3:04:03.840 picture case like this is they're not even it's not 3:04:03.879 --> 3:04:05.720 even really helping. It's just creating, like you have a 3:04:05.760 --> 3:04:08.080 small labor aristocracy that you have everyone else could getting 3:04:08.120 --> 3:04:10.880 just like ground down. In this case, it's that we've 3:04:10.920 --> 3:04:12.840 got we've got a small core of people who have 3:04:12.920 --> 3:04:16.600 been there twenty or thirty years. And and whereas before, 3:04:17.080 --> 3:04:20.280 maybe even ten years ago, they might have viewed the 3:04:20.360 --> 3:04:23.160 union as a vehicle to help everybody, things have gotten 3:04:23.280 --> 3:04:26.480 so bad that now it's just okay, I'm going to 3:04:26.680 --> 3:04:28.840 use this system as much as I can to cover 3:04:29.000 --> 3:04:32.680 my own ass because things have gotten so damn bad. 3:04:33.240 --> 3:04:37.520 And obviously, you know, Reagan destroying the unions and stuff 3:04:37.560 --> 3:04:40.960 like that help with that. But yeah, it's that I 3:04:41.120 --> 3:04:43.680 and I feel like the union in my job could 3:04:43.680 --> 3:04:48.320 be very helpful, um, but it would require certain people 3:04:48.520 --> 3:04:51.640 in it too, instead of looking out for just their 3:04:51.680 --> 3:04:54.600 own interest because hey, I've been here twenty five years, 3:04:54.720 --> 3:05:00.680 so I'm in the clear. Like, actually, go, okay, maybe 3:05:00.760 --> 3:05:03.080 I should you know, sacrifice a little bit of of 3:05:03.240 --> 3:05:06.560 that power or that privilege to help the people who 3:05:06.600 --> 3:05:08.840 are just hiring in so that we can keep them 3:05:08.920 --> 3:05:12.760 so that that this doesn't have to keep happening. Yeah, 3:05:12.840 --> 3:05:14.640 And it's you know, this is one of the things 3:05:14.720 --> 3:05:17.600 that has made the John Dear strike, that made it 3:05:17.680 --> 3:05:20.320 so powerful, was these those older workers who I mean 3:05:20.440 --> 3:05:22.120 that they had a tiered system, right, So you have 3:05:22.240 --> 3:05:25.320 workers hired I think before like ninety seven got a 3:05:25.360 --> 3:05:27.600 full pension, and then like after ninety seven was like 3:05:27.680 --> 3:05:29.600 a third of that, and then workers hired in the 3:05:29.680 --> 3:05:31.600 last couple of years weren't getting any pension at all. 3:05:31.640 --> 3:05:34.119 And a big part of the strike is like all 3:05:34.200 --> 3:05:36.800 of the workers saying that's not acceptable, um, including the 3:05:36.879 --> 3:05:38.800 ones who had a full pension, who had some of 3:05:38.840 --> 3:05:40.600 a pension, like saying that, like the fact that the 3:05:40.640 --> 3:05:43.200 newer people are getting screwed over is an acceptable And 3:05:43.240 --> 3:05:46.640 I've heard different reasons for why that happened, because this 3:05:46.800 --> 3:05:49.000 is this tactic what you're talking about, and kind of 3:05:49.080 --> 3:05:51.840 like what happened to John Deer, it was a common tactic. 3:05:51.920 --> 3:05:53.600 You know, It's the thing we talked about in colonialism 3:05:53.640 --> 3:05:56.640 all the time. You want to divide the population against 3:05:56.879 --> 3:05:59.039 you know, it's each other one way or the other. 3:05:59.080 --> 3:06:01.000 Give them like making make them feel as if their 3:06:01.040 --> 3:06:03.720 interests are not necessarily aligned, you know, so the people 3:06:03.760 --> 3:06:07.440 who um. And there's reasons I've heard different reasons for 3:06:07.520 --> 3:06:10.520 why John Deere was different, including the idea that like 3:06:10.879 --> 3:06:12.800 a lot of these are family jobs, so it was 3:06:12.840 --> 3:06:15.160 not people. It was people being like, well, my kid's 3:06:15.240 --> 3:06:18.560 not gonna get a pension, and that's bullshit. Um anyway, Yeah, 3:06:18.600 --> 3:06:21.720 I just it's it's it's important to talk about like 3:06:21.959 --> 3:06:25.600 that as a problem and also to highlight different strikes 3:06:25.640 --> 3:06:27.959 where that seems to have been overcome by the workers, 3:06:28.040 --> 3:06:30.039 like this fact that they were attempted to be played 3:06:30.040 --> 3:06:33.520 against each other didn't really work out, and where in 3:06:33.640 --> 3:06:36.960 my case it very much is like another another example 3:06:37.040 --> 3:06:40.400 being so we'll have people who are are lower on 3:06:40.440 --> 3:06:43.480 the seniority list, and like let's say, for example, one 3:06:43.560 --> 3:06:46.960 weekend we're running lines three and five and not the 3:06:47.040 --> 3:06:52.920 other two. The newer people might only know stuff online four. 3:06:53.879 --> 3:06:58.520 But if the new people don't get scheduled to do something, 3:06:58.680 --> 3:07:00.800 even if they're just being forced to sweep the floor, 3:07:01.520 --> 3:07:04.160 the people who have the higher seniority will throw a 3:07:04.240 --> 3:07:06.680 fit saying, well, they're lower seniority, why aren't they in 3:07:06.800 --> 3:07:09.600 here as opposed to well, because they can't run that machine, 3:07:10.320 --> 3:07:11.800 and then they don't want to train them to run 3:07:11.879 --> 3:07:15.640 that machine. It's it's very they've managed to succeed where 3:07:15.680 --> 3:07:18.960 the John Deer capitalists might have failed in making this 3:07:19.240 --> 3:07:23.040 all about like all right working. And I don't blame 3:07:24.120 --> 3:07:26.680 the people who have the higher seniority on this because 3:07:27.040 --> 3:07:29.200 if my you know, if if you're working, conditions are 3:07:29.280 --> 3:07:33.200 hell and you have the option of okay, well, on 3:07:33.280 --> 3:07:36.040 a short term scale, I can screw over this other 3:07:36.160 --> 3:07:40.240 person and actually see my family once in a while. 3:07:40.800 --> 3:07:44.600 Most people are gonna do it, especially if that person 3:07:44.720 --> 3:07:46.600 is somebody who just hired in that you don't know, 3:07:46.760 --> 3:07:50.879 we'll scre that guy. And that's where once again, if 3:07:51.080 --> 3:07:53.040 unions were stronger, if they it was more than what 3:07:53.200 --> 3:07:55.680 is it right now, like two three of jobs or 3:07:55.720 --> 3:07:59.720 a union job, but unions have been so like just 3:08:00.080 --> 3:08:03.640 weakened that this sort of situation is allowed to happen. 3:08:03.680 --> 3:08:07.600 I guess you could say, and I think, yeah, that 3:08:07.680 --> 3:08:09.720 comes back to it, like the solute. The solution to 3:08:09.800 --> 3:08:13.920 the supply chain problem isn't really a solute like it's 3:08:13.959 --> 3:08:16.280 it's it's not it's not a logistical solution. It's not 3:08:16.400 --> 3:08:18.840 even really like a capital gain solution, like a tax solution. 3:08:18.879 --> 3:08:22.440 The solution is that, you know, you have to fundamentally 3:08:22.560 --> 3:08:26.080 change the balance of power between capital and labor. And 3:08:26.760 --> 3:08:28.040 you know, I mean that and that and that that 3:08:28.160 --> 3:08:30.240 can be like you know, I think things will get 3:08:30.320 --> 3:08:33.760 better if it's if it's more unions, but like things 3:08:33.800 --> 3:08:37.320 are going to continue to suck until like the capitalists 3:08:37.320 --> 3:08:40.440 ceased to exist as a class. Yeah, And I think 3:08:40.520 --> 3:08:45.280 that's like that that's because yeah, that's always the and 3:08:45.400 --> 3:08:47.879 it's one of those like we get we get critiqued 3:08:47.920 --> 3:08:51.520 on the internets sometimes because I think people will will say, like, well, 3:08:52.040 --> 3:08:54.080 you know, is your only solution to this. You keep 3:08:54.080 --> 3:08:56.680 talking about like mutual aid and anarchism, and like, I 3:08:56.760 --> 3:08:59.960 just don't feel like that's a big scale solutions. Like yeah, 3:09:00.120 --> 3:09:02.400 but the current system isn't going to work very well 3:09:02.520 --> 3:09:04.600 on a big scale. Part of what we're always talking 3:09:04.640 --> 3:09:07.440 about is like how to how to get your how 3:09:07.480 --> 3:09:10.200 to get yourself and your people through the situation, because 3:09:10.240 --> 3:09:12.800 that's also important, and it's the same thing with like 3:09:12.959 --> 3:09:15.920 a union, right unionizing you and your fellow laborers in 3:09:16.040 --> 3:09:18.960 your factory, or or making your union more effective and 3:09:19.040 --> 3:09:21.400 more able to like advocate for everyone. That's not going 3:09:21.480 --> 3:09:23.680 to fix the bigger problem. That's not going to deal 3:09:23.800 --> 3:09:26.320 with the the issues that like, that's not going to 3:09:26.560 --> 3:09:29.039 stop climate change, that's not going to stop supply line 3:09:29.080 --> 3:09:30.840 crunches in a grand scale, it's not going to stop 3:09:31.120 --> 3:09:33.840 creeping authoritarianism. But it can make life more bearable for 3:09:33.920 --> 3:09:36.040 you and the people around you. And that's that's also 3:09:36.160 --> 3:09:41.360 part of like getting by in a crumbling world. Absolutely, yeah, 3:09:41.879 --> 3:09:47.320 and yep, it's it requires a bit of more foresight, 3:09:47.959 --> 3:09:50.279 which I think was one of the other purposes behind 3:09:50.520 --> 3:09:53.080 working us as many hours as they do, is when 3:09:53.120 --> 3:09:57.560 you're so fucking tired all the time from working what 3:09:57.680 --> 3:09:59.960 you're working. You don't have time to stop and say 3:10:00.000 --> 3:10:04.240 about the larger implications of things. M hm and yeah, 3:10:05.280 --> 3:10:08.560 and that's part of what they're going for. Yep. Yeah. 3:10:08.920 --> 3:10:11.680 So I don't know anyone else get anything. Well, I 3:10:11.720 --> 3:10:13.520 guess just the clear solution of this is that I 3:10:13.600 --> 3:10:15.720 need to just stuck up on Bang, right. I just 3:10:15.760 --> 3:10:18.920 need to buy But I can because I love Bang. 3:10:19.040 --> 3:10:24.920 I I can't stop drinking Bang, I will, are you. 3:10:26.840 --> 3:10:30.440 I'm scared of how much Bag I drink. I will say. 3:10:30.520 --> 3:10:33.920 One of one of the wonderful mutual aid solutions is 3:10:34.040 --> 3:10:36.880 if you're very, very nice to the syrup mixing people, 3:10:37.360 --> 3:10:39.760 they will be kind to you if you are working 3:10:39.800 --> 3:10:41.560 a double and they will give you a shot of 3:10:41.600 --> 3:10:47.039 the energy drink syrup before it's been mixed. God, oh boy, 3:10:47.640 --> 3:10:53.760 you should You should not have told Garrison that a problem. 3:10:54.720 --> 3:10:57.600 Garrison's going to quit his job podcasting just to be 3:10:57.680 --> 3:11:01.680 able to get just gonna drink shooting up Energy Drink 3:11:01.800 --> 3:11:04.080 here on out. That's all I'm doing with my time. 3:11:04.440 --> 3:11:07.320 I'm I'm leaving, leaving the call right now, finding the 3:11:07.400 --> 3:11:11.920 nearest factory, and my second day on the on the 3:11:12.040 --> 3:11:14.520 job in the soda manufacturing thing, I had a twenty 3:11:14.600 --> 3:11:18.760 four pack of energy drink explode all over me change 3:11:18.800 --> 3:11:21.360 of clothes, and that's when I learned that caffeine and 3:11:21.400 --> 3:11:25.920 touring can soak through your skin. Oh yes, I mean 3:11:26.040 --> 3:11:30.080 basically seeing sound. Okay, So I I've just been looking 3:11:30.160 --> 3:11:32.640 up inflatable hot tubs and I feel like if I 3:11:32.680 --> 3:11:35.920 could order enough pure energy drink syrup in an inflatable 3:11:35.959 --> 3:11:39.199 hot tub, I could build basically the equivalent of Baron 3:11:39.280 --> 3:11:44.280 Harconan's rejuvenation bath, but with like pure bang syrup. That 3:11:44.440 --> 3:11:47.120 is that is That is my plan. Just twelve caffeine 3:11:47.200 --> 3:11:49.560 and tori. It's just gonna be we're all gonna quit 3:11:49.560 --> 3:11:51.240 our jobs. We're just gonna have the same amount of money. 3:11:51.400 --> 3:11:55.200 They get slower over time because we're again spending it 3:11:55.240 --> 3:11:58.199 all on banks. Obviously, you need you need the inside 3:11:58.320 --> 3:12:00.480 person to supply you with the sir up. So we'll 3:12:00.520 --> 3:12:02.840 just have sort of an Ocean's eleven situations where you 3:12:02.840 --> 3:12:05.320 can guys pull up to the loading dock and with 3:12:05.440 --> 3:12:08.280 a tanker and I'm just hooking the truck up. You know, 3:12:08.680 --> 3:12:12.000 it's gonna be like Scarface, but we're selling Pierre syrup, 3:12:12.120 --> 3:12:16.120 and then Garrison loses his mind and winds up in 3:12:16.160 --> 3:12:19.080 a machine gun fight in a mansion, and instead of 3:12:19.200 --> 3:12:22.320 burying his face into a mountain of cocaine, he's instead 3:12:22.360 --> 3:12:26.560 got just a little He's just sticking his hand into 3:12:26.640 --> 3:12:31.720 a bowl of syrup to absorb the caffeinated nutrients. When 3:12:31.800 --> 3:12:34.120 I's when I p it's just gonna be straight syrup. 3:12:34.240 --> 3:12:40.480 Now that is yeah. Anyway, Well that's the episode where 3:12:41.360 --> 3:12:43.160 if people want to find you a lot, where can 3:12:43.200 --> 3:12:46.880 they find you? So I host, along with my husband 3:12:46.920 --> 3:12:50.600 and our friend Justin, we host a trans comedy and 3:12:50.680 --> 3:12:55.000 pop culture podcast where we also interview interesting people. Um 3:12:55.320 --> 3:12:58.720 it's called the Violet Wanderers. So you can find us 3:12:58.760 --> 3:13:02.400 on Twitter at violet unders or the Violet Wanders dot 3:13:02.440 --> 3:13:05.879 com or email the Violet Wanders at gmail dot com. 3:13:06.440 --> 3:13:09.920 And that's basically that's my Twitter handle. And I just 3:13:10.040 --> 3:13:13.160 slowly got sucked into the Twitter hellscape where yeah that happens. 3:13:13.200 --> 3:13:15.520 Originally went on just like oh, I'm gonna just promote 3:13:15.560 --> 3:13:17.400 my show, and then I started responding to people and 3:13:17.520 --> 3:13:20.640 before you know what, I'm writing twenty tweet rants about 3:13:20.760 --> 3:13:24.240 just in time on my stupid gay podcast account. I 3:13:24.280 --> 3:13:27.160 got into Twitter to converse with a young Justice podcast, 3:13:27.480 --> 3:13:29.880 and that's why I created my Twitter accounts. And here 3:13:29.920 --> 3:13:32.640 I am now So. I was trying to get a 3:13:32.680 --> 3:13:35.640 planet Side to Beta Key and I got it. But 3:13:36.120 --> 3:13:40.520 the consequences were I am now here. Yeah, Twitter, Twitter, Twitter, 3:13:40.600 --> 3:13:44.800 and it's consequences for your You're this, You're such a child. 3:13:45.200 --> 3:13:49.160 I remember the first Planet Side Betaday, Chris. It was 3:13:49.200 --> 3:13:53.119 an age and dreamed of. Oh, Chris, and you all 3:13:53.160 --> 3:13:55.560 are welcome to come on the show anytime. I will. 3:13:55.640 --> 3:13:58.560 I will bother you to come on my show sometime. Excellent. 3:13:58.640 --> 3:14:04.040 Yeah a good plugs plugs probably, yeah? Yeah, Like I said, 3:14:05.160 --> 3:14:09.240 the Violet Wanderers were on Apple, were on Spotify, were 3:14:09.320 --> 3:14:14.120 on podcast Addict, whatever you know, all your major podcast platforms. Uh. 3:14:14.720 --> 3:14:18.440 The tagline of the show is made for no one, 3:14:18.680 --> 3:14:22.039 so um expect a lot of queer humor, a lot 3:14:22.160 --> 3:14:26.000 of me calling my husband a slut, and us talking 3:14:26.080 --> 3:14:30.280 about video games, comic books, movies, and then occasionally just 3:14:30.680 --> 3:14:33.720 randomly interviewing really interesting people who I harassed in the 3:14:33.800 --> 3:14:36.880 coming on the show, like which Robert, I know you 3:14:36.959 --> 3:14:40.400 know Daniel Harper from I don't speak Germans. He's been 3:14:40.440 --> 3:14:42.760 on a few times. Um, we've had him on and 3:14:43.440 --> 3:14:47.480 had some fun talking about Nazis, which themes kind of 3:14:47.720 --> 3:14:50.320 you know, counterintuitive, but there's a lot of humor that 3:14:50.360 --> 3:14:52.200 can be found in Nazis if you know the right 3:14:52.240 --> 3:14:54.880 places to look. And yeah, I you know what, I 3:14:55.040 --> 3:14:58.800 just watched a German language movie about Hitler that was 3:14:58.920 --> 3:15:02.000 made in two thousands, Evan by a Jewish German comedian 3:15:02.080 --> 3:15:05.760 that includes I've watched a lot of Hitler movies, you know, periodically, 3:15:05.800 --> 3:15:07.760 I just get on Netflix and Hulu type and Hitler 3:15:07.840 --> 3:15:10.160 just kind of watch whatever is there. This is the 3:15:10.320 --> 3:15:12.640 first time I have seen Hitler fucking in a movie. 3:15:13.240 --> 3:15:16.040 I've never seen anybody who had the courage to do that. 3:15:16.840 --> 3:15:20.119 He is just yeah, he's it's it's uncoming as one 3:15:20.240 --> 3:15:22.600 ball just swinging in the land. It is. It is 3:15:22.720 --> 3:15:25.920 an uncomfortable scene, but not the most uncomfortable scene in 3:15:25.959 --> 3:15:30.920 that particular movie. Um, it's quite a film, that's asn't say, 3:15:30.920 --> 3:15:33.480 that's pretty amazing. But yeah, come on, come on sometime 3:15:33.959 --> 3:15:36.560 we'll play around vin Selmageddon, which is a game that 3:15:36.640 --> 3:15:39.400 I've created, and uh, you know, if you guys don't 3:15:39.400 --> 3:15:41.840 want to kill yourselves afterwards, then Hey, you survived the game. 3:15:42.040 --> 3:15:43.560 As long as I can get some syrup out of 3:15:43.600 --> 3:15:45.959 the deal, that's that's all I want. I will, I will, 3:15:46.160 --> 3:15:48.160 I will smuggle you some syrup out and mail it 3:15:48.200 --> 3:15:51.200 to you. Okay, alright, that's that's gonna do it for 3:15:51.240 --> 3:15:53.280 all of us here today, that it could happen here 3:15:53.800 --> 3:15:57.680 until next time. I don't know. Go go read, Go 3:15:57.879 --> 3:16:01.880 read The Dawn of Everything. It's good, it's worth reading. 3:16:02.360 --> 3:16:16.000 Check it out. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more 3:16:16.080 --> 3:16:18.720 episodes every week from now until the heat death of 3:16:18.800 --> 3:16:21.520 the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of 3:16:21.600 --> 3:16:24.480 cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 3:16:24.600 --> 3:16:27.080 visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 3:16:27.160 --> 3:16:29.400 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:16:29.520 --> 3:16:32.480 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 3:16:32.520 --> 3:16:35.080 for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 3:16:35.120 --> 3:16:40.360 Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. We've all 3:16:40.480 --> 3:16:43.400 felt left out, and for people who moved to this country, 3:16:43.600 --> 3:16:46.840 that feeling lasts more than a moment. We can change that. 3:16:47.680 --> 3:16:50.879 Learn how it Belonging begins with Us dot org. Brought 3:16:50.920 --> 3:16:57.560 to you by the ad Council. Mama what does the 3:16:57.840 --> 3:17:08.160 chicken say? Draft friendly giraffe draw. You're not gonna get 3:17:08.200 --> 3:17:10.320 it all right. Just make sure you know the big stuff, 3:17:10.440 --> 3:17:12.440 like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the 3:17:12.520 --> 3:17:15.480 right seat for their agent's eyes. Get it right visits 3:17:15.640 --> 3:17:20.280 and h s a dot gov seat brought to you 3:17:20.360 --> 3:17:23.520 by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the AD Council. 3:17:25.879 --> 3:17:29.160 The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves 3:17:29.200 --> 3:17:33.040 around the underworld and criminals and entertainers to victims, crime 3:17:33.200 --> 3:17:36.560 and law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game gains. 3:17:36.640 --> 3:17:40.600 The Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify pro motilised activities. 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