1 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so 11 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: much for joining me for session two sixty seven of 12 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: the Therapy be for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right 13 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. In 14 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: recent years, there has been no shortage of documentaries, podcasts, 15 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: and articles about cults and the people who lead them. 16 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: I've been very curious about the psychology behind colts and 17 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: how members become a part of them, and one is 18 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: his talk with some wants to help share some light 19 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: on how it tends to happen. Joining me this week 20 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: is Dr Ashley Tiarsdale, a post doctoral fellow at American 21 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: University researching the intersection of disability, race, and horror. Dr 22 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: Ash is also the author of Cult Community, a newsletter 23 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: for cult fanatics. You might be familiar with dr Ash's 24 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: work if you're on TikTok, where she shares information about 25 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: obscure cults and their leaders in her free time. Our 26 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: conversation explores the history of cults, cult leaders, survivors and victims, 27 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: the similarities between cults and abusive relationships, and things that 28 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: may alert you to something being a cult. If something 29 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with 30 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag tbg in session, 31 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: or join us over in the Sister circles to talk 32 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: more in depth about the episode. You can join us 33 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: at community that Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's 34 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, 35 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: dr Ash, Thank you. I'm very excited to be here 36 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: speaking with you today. So tell me a little bit 37 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: about how your academic studies and life experiences led you 38 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: to researching cults. Well, my academic background is in literature, 39 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: and I focus on critical rays and critical disability studies 40 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: in US multi ethnic fiction, while my interest in cults 41 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: really started because I've binge watched Lia Remini's scientology docuseries. 42 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: I actually realized that a lot of questions that I 43 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: have about the terture that I read could also be 44 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: applied to some of the colts. I started to research, 45 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: and my primary question is usually how are black people impacted? 46 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: And how my black people be especially vulnerable to harm 47 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: or in this case, cold indoctrination because of social and 48 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: political discrimination. Wow. So I appreciate you sharing that back 49 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: story because that documentary wasn't too long ago, right, like 50 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: when did that come out? Oh? My gosh, I actually 51 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: don't remember. I don't know where it was, but the 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: series was on TV, and I just watched like episode 53 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: after episode after episode, and I was hooked immediately. Wow, 54 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: so so hooked that you completely changed your area of 55 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: study and work. Well, I kept focusing on literature professionally, 56 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: but personally I started spending a lot of time doing 57 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: that research. So got it. Okay, So this is more 58 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: of a of a personal kind of hobby and interest, 59 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: not necessarily what you're doing to kind of keep the 60 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: lights on exactly. My job is literature, My private time 61 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: is cold. Got it? Okay? Okay, So can you give 62 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: us a definition of what is a cult and how 63 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: it's different from religion. Sure, and I will say that 64 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: differentiating between the two is a little tricky because they 65 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: both usually feature devotion towards a particular figure and they 66 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: have organized faith systems. However, cults typically have a charismatic 67 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: leader who thinks that they either have direct access to 68 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: God or that they are in fact to God or 69 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: a divine figure. Cults also differ from religions because they 70 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: rely on extreme isolation and control, especially over their followers 71 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: personal relationships, their finances, and even their eating habits. God 72 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: It okay, So there can be some similarities, which I 73 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: think is important to kind of talk about absolutely, and 74 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: I think that's where things get a little bit shifty. Initially, 75 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: with many cults, there are the same kind of expectations 76 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: that one might expect of religion. So we expect you 77 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: to to service, we expect you to interact with and 78 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: bond with your fellow members, and none of that really 79 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: seems out of the ordinary. However, what happens is over time, 80 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: the demands placed on followers and the restrictions placed on 81 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: followers seem to grow at a very intense rate and 82 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: so what becomes expected of followers may no longer just 83 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: be in attendance of service, but that you now move 84 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: onto the commune, that you no longer speak to your 85 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: family members. But again, that usually happens over time, and 86 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: I think that's where things get tricky, because the initial 87 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: interactions are very similar to what we see in most religions. 88 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: Thank you her, then, so not only did you take 89 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: a personal interest in, you know, kind of learning more 90 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: about colds and what they look like and how they happen, 91 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: but you've also now decided to start sharing that information online. 92 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: So what what led you to taking that step of 93 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: sharing what you found online. The thing that really pushed 94 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: me onto TikTok was actually my partner getting tired of 95 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: me talking about all the code things that I found 96 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: over breakfast, and she was like, you know, maybe you 97 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: share this on the internet. Maybe there's a community of 98 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: people you can build with because I want to enjoy 99 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: my oatmeal quietly. And UM, he was right. I found 100 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: a community of people who are you know, also just 101 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: as interested. But that is what um gave me the 102 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: idea to go online. God it I love that your 103 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: partner was like, Okay, I'm trying to listen this to this, 104 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: so let's try to find some other people. Yes, exactly, absolutely, 105 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. So, in addition to the TikTok videos, 106 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: you also have a paid newsletter where you share some 107 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: of this content. What has been your response to that newsletter? 108 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: Mostly positive. I found that a lot of people are 109 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: excited to learn more about the cootes that they have 110 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: heard of before, and they're excited to learn about quotes 111 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: that they've never heard of before. I've also found that 112 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: a lot of people weren't aware at all the black 113 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: people lead or joint quotes, and they're happy to have 114 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: that insight. On occasion, I have had a few former 115 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: members right into me to defend their leaders, and those 116 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: responses were not positive. But I absolutely respect their perspective 117 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: of what happened. But I'm not changing my approach, so 118 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: right right, I appreciate it. So you mentioned earlier you 119 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: know that you have a specific interest in looking at 120 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: like black people and black people's interaction with colds. So 121 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: why do you feel like it is dangerous for us 122 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: to assume that black people don't lead or participate in colds. 123 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: I think the reason that it's the most dangerous. It's 124 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: because if we don't know that we are also susceptible, 125 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: then we might not recognize the signs when we're being targeted. 126 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: And I think that's what is the most dangerous. We 127 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: might see behaviors that might feel a little abnormal, but 128 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: we might not immediately associate them with things that we've 129 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: heard over seen before in terms of colts, because we 130 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: see them as a primarily white issue or something that 131 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: black people don't do. We don't do that, and I 132 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: think that that's dangerous because it is possible. We absolutely 133 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: we lead them and we join them, participate in them 134 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: in all ways. And it's important that we are aware 135 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: that we are susceptible, you know, as I'm thinking through 136 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: this dr ash and you may have a far more 137 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: sophisticated like understanding of this, but I'm wondering, because of 138 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: black people's like historically strong ties to religion and spirituality, 139 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: if there is some interaction there that makes it difficult 140 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: for people to believe that we could become a part 141 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: of a code or leader could absolutely and I think 142 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: the best examples of those are some of the Christian 143 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: based cults that are primarily created to target black people 144 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: and we know this happened with Jim Jones. It was 145 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: absolutely intentional that Jones predicated so much of the early 146 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: mission of the People's Temple on integration and aligning himself 147 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: with civil rights leaders and specifically situating himself in Oakland, California. 148 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: That was all very very intentional. His audience and later 149 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: his victims were black people who up until that point 150 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: might not have seen themselves as potential could victims, because 151 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: so much of the scholarships and media reporting on colts 152 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: even now does not feature us. Yeah, I mean, and 153 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, if you look at all of the like 154 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: true Crime podcast and all of the fandoms and things 155 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: that occur, those are typically white victims. Absolutely, we are 156 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: not often seen as victims. And it's so dangerous obviously 157 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: because we can be victimized, but again it's so dangerous 158 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: because we are targeted and we might not even recognize 159 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: the signs because we don't we wouldn't associate what's happening 160 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: to us with what we know. It's true, we might 161 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: recognize the signs of something that seems a little culti 162 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: or at least seem suspicious, but because we never see 163 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: ourselves as the victims of these kinds of crimes, it 164 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: might be difficult to see like what we're heading down 165 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: this path, and I think that's very dangerous and I 166 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: think it's something certainly that could leaders take advantage of 167 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: because they are aware as just as as much as 168 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: we are, always so are they. And that's something that 169 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: we see in these examples of true crime, with serial 170 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: killers or folks who have admitted to targeting black people, 171 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: targeting black children. This is all intentional, but for whatever reason, 172 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: even though we are victimized, even though we know the 173 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: results of the Jonestown massacre, we still have this image 174 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: of COPE victims and COPE leaders as white. Are there 175 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: any particular takeaways you have from the Jonestown massacre that 176 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: you think people should be aware of. Yes, much of 177 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: what Jim Jones provided his followers early on was a 178 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: safe haven from the racial intolerance and poverty they faced 179 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: outside of the church, and unfortunately much of that early 180 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: and positive programming overshadowed the red flags within the church. 181 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: So prior to the move to Jonestown in Guyana, there 182 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: were reports of fraud, of bullying, and the physical assault 183 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: of a ELTs and children and the elderly. But because 184 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: of the long term programming and manipulation. I think folks 185 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: were taught to believe that they were still safer within 186 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: the church than outside of it, despite all of the 187 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: awful things that were happening. Yeah, so, really just looking 188 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: for a safe space, right, looking for refuge from everything 189 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: else that was happening. Absolutely, the church or a group 190 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: where the organization that kind of takes that transition is 191 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: a refuge, is a safe haven, and all of those 192 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: things that are awful kind of happening within people are 193 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: being told, they're being taught that no matter what's happening 194 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: in here, it's still worse out there. It's best to 195 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: be here with us suffering than out there alone. Yeah 196 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: so you touched a little bit, and I you know, 197 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: don't know as much about this and would love to 198 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: hear your thoughts on this. What are the like personalities 199 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: of cult leaders, because you're describing it as a very 200 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: intentional like does somebody find something one day and realize 201 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: like I'm going to start a cult? Like what is 202 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: the developmental process of somebody starting a cold and what 203 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: kind of personalities are we looking at. I think there 204 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: are similarities amongst all of the different cult leaders that 205 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: I have covered and even those that I have not 206 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: yet covered, And I think the charismatic personality, the ability 207 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: to draw people in is certainly one. And I think 208 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: what's key is that whether or not they began their 209 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: organizations with the intention to exploit, they end up doing it. 210 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: They recognize the power and influence that they build over people, 211 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: and they make a lot of demands over their followers 212 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: and exhibit a lot of controlling behaviors over them. And 213 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: I think that another thing that they all have in 214 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: common is this refusal to be challenged. So any challenge 215 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: against the leader is seen as you know, not just disrespect, 216 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: but an insult against the core of the faith. So 217 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: if a person has identified themselves as the one True 218 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,839 Speaker 1: God or the Last Profit or something like that, to 219 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: challenge them or to question them is an insult to 220 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: the faith itself. And so what I think becomes key 221 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: for them is maintaining that control, oftentimes through violence or 222 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: through physical or emotional violence. And that's something that we 223 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: see happen with could leaders across ethnicity of Ginger more 224 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: from my conversation with dr Ash after the break, So 225 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 1: do cults always have this kind of like faith spirituality 226 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: kind of framework, like is it always tied to like 227 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: a Christian kind of a thing or some kind of 228 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: faith entity, or or their clothes that are not even 229 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: related to anything that can see and be seen as 230 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: like a higher power. There are cults that are atheistic 231 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: in nature, so they don't actually have a religious wore 232 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: or background. For example, I'm especially interested in UFO Colts 233 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: and ray Realism is a UFO cult led by Real 234 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: Who's that's the name of the leader. He named the 235 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: group after himself, and so that's also you know, that's 236 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: a real flat okay, But he believes and has taught 237 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: his followers that religion in itself is almost a distraction. 238 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: What people should be focused on is what he says 239 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: is the Eloheim, a group of extraterrestrials who have the 240 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: technology that we need to become better people. So even 241 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: though the eloheim aren't divine figures to be worshiped, they're 242 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: still kind of function in the same way, and that 243 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: they are where human creation began and they are where 244 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: we will find Salvasian later. So even though they are 245 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: atheistic in nature, they still share a lot of the 246 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: same tenants that won't find in traditional religions, But there 247 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: are many clothes like that, and that's actually something you 248 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: will find with a lot of UFO religions is that 249 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: there is much more of an interest in identifying and 250 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: building relationships with particular extra terrestrials rather than building a 251 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: relationship with God and like a Christian sense God. Okay, So, 252 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: are there any modern kind of cult adjacent fandoms? Are 253 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: followings that you've seen arise in addition to what you've 254 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: already talked about that may seem particularly attractive to black people. Yes. 255 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: I actually covered a cult very recently which is led 256 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: by allegial Bishop a k A Nature Boy, and he 257 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: has amassed a pretty big following on YouTube. He is 258 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: a young black man who was actually arrested very recently 259 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, Georgia. So he relied very heavily on Facebook 260 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: to initially build his community, and then he leveraged YouTube 261 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: to continue to attract his young, black and primarily female following. 262 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: And I think some of the things that really made 263 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: him so attractive to his followers was this vision of 264 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: black royalty that he imparted on them. So he refer 265 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: to them as kings and queens. He would stress his 266 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: followers in crowns. He I think changed some of their 267 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: names to the names of great African kings and queens. 268 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: He also convinced them that by following him to these 269 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: different natural paradise is outside of the US and out 270 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: of the mainland, they would find peace and joy. All 271 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: that they have to do is follow him and of 272 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: course obey him. And as was any cult, over time 273 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: he became much more controlling and eventually violent and predatory. Wow. So, 274 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, you do bring up an interesting point around 275 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: how it feels like it is easier for somebody to 276 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: kind of develop these kinds of followings because of things 277 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: like social media and these algorithms, and you know, like it. 278 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: It feels like it is very easy for you to 279 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: kind of amass a large following very quickly and do 280 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: more home to people, or you know, exploit people in 281 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: ways that didn't exist maybe teen years ago. Absolutely, I 282 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: think that's one of the things that can be so dangerous. 283 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: And this should isn't the only one. There was another 284 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: Facebook colt that garnered a lot of attention a few 285 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: years ago, and I forgot the initial name of the group, 286 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: but the group was led by Sherry Shriner and in 287 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: her group. It started off as a meeting place for 288 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,479 Speaker 1: people who strongly believed in political conspiracy theories, but she 289 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: began to exert more control over her followers and their 290 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: relationships that they had with one another and that they 291 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: had outside of the group. And eventually one of the 292 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: followers believed that he had wronged her and was convinced 293 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: by Sherry Shriner that I think they shared a belief 294 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: that some of the people in the government or the 295 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: people that caused you a lot of harm our lizard people. 296 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: And so he had a lot of confusion about what 297 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: he was learning from Sherry versus what he was hearing 298 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: on the outside. And this follower asked his girlfriend to 299 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: kill him, and she did, and so there was a 300 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: murder as a direct result of his relationship to this 301 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: Facebook cale. And so it is absolutely just as dangerous 302 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: now to find yourself in one of these kind of 303 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: online or virtual as it would be to find one 304 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: in person. Yeah, and as you're talking, I'm reminded of 305 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: the recent documentary and I'm sure you saw it also 306 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: around Lula ro and how some of these like multi 307 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: level marketing organizations, you know, you think it's like, oh, 308 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: I'm selling tupperware. But on the back end, it does 309 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: really seem like the leaders of some of these organizations 310 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: are functioning as a cult. Absolutely, And this is a 311 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: great way to kind of identify whether or not something 312 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: a group or an organization or that you are involved 313 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: in is crossing a line that you need to be 314 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: aware of. And Lula ro is a great example. So 315 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: you have this kind of business and you're selling these 316 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: clothes and things are going great, and yet the leaders 317 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: are now interfering with your marriage. That's a red flag. 318 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: You're supposed to be selling me leg it's not telling 319 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: me about what should be doing. What is that? It's 320 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: really great that you pointed that out because that's a 321 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: really good example of I think I might be involved 322 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: in a group that's crossing the line I don't want 323 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: to cross. And if they are interfering with your inner 324 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,479 Speaker 1: personal relationships and the organization that you're in is supposed 325 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: to be about selling leggings, hello, really that and something 326 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: else is going on there? Something else is definitely going on. Yeah, 327 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: So talk to me a little bit about how cold 328 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: leaders tend to draw members in, Like what is that? 329 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: Like initiation process almost look like that's a really great question. 330 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: And it's so interesting that we just talked about Little Role, 331 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: because we see this across This isn't just you know, 332 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: doesn't stop just at religion. So very often it's by 333 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: creating a warm and an inviting environment. So many people 334 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: just want to be in community with others. They don't 335 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 1: want to be alone, and want to buil bonds with people, 336 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: and they want to work towards building something beautiful or meaningful, 337 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: and so most of these organizations offer that. And again 338 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: we see this with Little Role. It wasn't just about leggings. 339 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: It was about building a business and connecting with people 340 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: and building bonds and growing and putting money back into 341 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: your community. And the same thing happens with codes that 342 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: are religious in nature. This invitation to join the group 343 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:24,959 Speaker 1: provides people purpose, and leaders initially tell people that they 344 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: can provide. All you have to do is be obedient, 345 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: and again that obedience is often just show up when 346 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: we ask you to show up, Be kind to your 347 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: fellow members, maybe dress a little conservatively. Maybe we ask 348 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: you not to drink alcohol. The things that they ask 349 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: of people very early on are not particularly harmful, and 350 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: they don't seem bad or wrong in fact, they seem 351 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: like things we should be doing. Perhaps I shouldn't drink 352 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: so much alcohol, I should be supportive of my fellow 353 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: community members. And I think that's how people kind of 354 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: get drawn in. But that's how things begin. Usually it's 355 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: an invitation to be a part of something bigger than 356 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: maybe what you are a part of right now. Yeah, 357 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: and you, I mean, you're talking about like community, right 358 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: and I wonder if there are other things that you 359 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: feel like we learn about community from people's experience in colds. 360 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: I think the thing that we learned that we see 361 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: over and over again, whether we're talking about a little row, 362 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: whether we're talking about Facebook conspiracy group term COULDE, whether 363 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: we are talking about Jonestown, we have people who want 364 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: to connect with one another, who want to believe that 365 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: there is more meaning to life than perhaps they thought, 366 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: and they want someone to trust to show them how 367 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: to find that meaning and how to have purpose and 368 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: how to do that with other people. I think so 369 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: much of what we see across various types of cults 370 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: is that people who are involved in them simply didn't 371 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: want to be alone, and could leaders have exploited that 372 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: they take advantage of that. It seems attractive to ask 373 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: people to come live on a commune by telling them 374 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: you come live amongst your people. We are family, we 375 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: love you, we care about you. The community that we 376 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: build here will be a safe haven from all of 377 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 1: the horror outside of it. And so that does probably 378 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: seem quite attractive to someone who is alone and who 379 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: maybe feels that the world outside has been unfair and harsh. 380 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: And in many cases it has been. And I think 381 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: that's what colts teach us about community. They teach us 382 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: that people desire to be in community with one another. 383 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: M you know. The other interesting thing about social media, 384 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: I think is that it also is an opportunity for 385 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: people who have left these kinds of organizations to then 386 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: share their stories. Right, So I definitely have seen a 387 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: lot of people share about I feel like there's is 388 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: it like some kind of scented oils people have been selling, 389 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: and then you kind of like a row And then 390 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: I seen a lot of women come out saying like, Okay, 391 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: I left this organization and here you know. And so 392 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: it's interesting because they typically find a lot of support 393 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: from other people who have left. But then there's also 394 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: kind of like the emails that you've gotten in terms 395 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: of defending the leaders, Like, there's also a lot of 396 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: backlash from people who are still members of the organizations, 397 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: And so I'm curious, like, if we see somebody like 398 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: a friend or our family member who has become a 399 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: part of one of these organizations, are there any kinds 400 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: of things that we can say, like are their steps 401 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: we can take to to help them to kind of 402 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: see maybe some of the dangers of what they're involved with. Absolutely, 403 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I've seen come 404 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: up quite a lot is being able to remain in 405 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: contact with them. I think so much of what cult 406 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: legious desire is that kind of complete control of their followers, 407 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: because as long as they have that their followers isolated, 408 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: they can ask anything of them and require anything of 409 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: them and they'll be little to no backlash. Again, we 410 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: see this with kind of moving people onto communes and 411 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: asking them to isolate themselves from the family members. So 412 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: if you do have a family member or a friend 413 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: who you think may be evolved in something like this, 414 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: being able to maintain contact with them, it's gonna be huge. 415 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: Even if it feels like your interactions are always positive, 416 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: the fact that you have not been completely iced out 417 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: is a great sign that they are still they still 418 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: have a foot outside of the organization. That's a wonderful thing. 419 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: I think it's also important to do your best as 420 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: long as you do still have that connection, to try 421 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: to give them to think about as objectively as possible 422 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: some of your concerns, to remind them that they should 423 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: be a part of organizations where they can ask questions, 424 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: you should be a part of an organization where you 425 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: can leave if you want to, And to just try 426 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: to objectively get them to kind of think through some 427 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: of the things that are happening that you recognize as 428 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: red flags, so that perhaps on their own and in 429 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: their own time, they recognize, wait a minute, perhaps I 430 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: am a part of something, or an organization has crossed 431 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: the line. Maybe you can recognize yet. I think it's 432 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: also important for people who are perhaps ready to leave, 433 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: who have had that recognition and want to walk out 434 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: or to leave, to know that there are licensed professionals 435 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: who are equipped to help them make that transition out 436 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: of their organization and back into the world with people 437 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: that they know love. And I love that you brought 438 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: up groups because one of my followers who was a 439 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: member for a very long time, shared that that's one 440 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: of the things that really helped them. They found Facebook 441 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: groups of ex members, and so while they felt isolated 442 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: from the community that they had left because they had 443 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: walked away from everyone that they had gotten to know 444 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,719 Speaker 1: and come to love for a very long time, they 445 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: were able to find a new community and ex members 446 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: who were saying, you've made the right choice, and we 447 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: can help identify opportunities of support for you here. You 448 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: don't have to be isolated within that group to have 449 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: the kind of relationships that you're looking for, And I 450 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: think that's something to remember. Yeah, I think that that 451 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: definitely gets a positive of being able to find support 452 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: once you are outside of the cult. Yeah. More from 453 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: my conversation with dr Ash after the break. So, you know, 454 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 1: we talked about this a little bit, but there does 455 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: tend to be the sentiment that people who joined cults 456 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: are stupid, are weak, right, And again, I think you 457 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that that's dangerous in thinking because then we 458 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: maybe miss some of the signs. So why do you 459 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: feel like this is an unfair assumption? The most important 460 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: thing I've learned from my research is that almost no 461 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: one actually joins a cult. People join organizations and groups 462 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: that are transformed into colds, and this transition is typically 463 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: the result of manipulation and hard them over time. So 464 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: no one should be called stupid or weak because they 465 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: were manipulated. Anyone can be manipulated. No one is above that, 466 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: and I think that's what's key when we're talking about 467 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: colts and the kinds of people who are indoctrinated. So 468 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: you've already given us a couple of red flags in 469 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: between questions. So you talked about if you don't have 470 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: the ability to ask questions of the leader, that could 471 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: be a red flag. If there is no kind of 472 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: like free will in terms of coming and going, that 473 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: could be a red flag. Can you identify maybe some 474 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: of the other real flags that people may want to 475 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: just kind of have on their radar of an organization 476 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: or a group they've joined and may kind of be 477 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: crossing over into a cold. Sure, I really want to 478 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: underscore the isolation is definitely one that they need to 479 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: be aware of, whether it is in person and you 480 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: are asked to constantly be with the members and only 481 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: with your members, or whether it's virtually and any time 482 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: perhaps you maybe aren't at work or aren't in class, 483 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: you are being encouraged to be, you know, in the 484 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: chat room or on the phone or on virtual calls 485 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: with other members. That is not a good sign. Any 486 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: group of organization should allow you the room to go 487 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: and exist outside of the organization and come back in 488 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: when you're ready. And I think something else that's important 489 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: that perhaps doesn't get talked about as much is if 490 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: you are in an organization that is encouraging you to 491 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: be paranoid about non members and the outside world, especially 492 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: paranoid about things that you haven't really had a problem 493 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,959 Speaker 1: with before. That's also a red flag. I think a 494 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: lot of what we've seen in the media recently, a 495 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: lot of this discussion about radicalization of youth, especially in 496 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: terms of gun violence, and you know, a lot of 497 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: this question about how does this happen? How does this happen? 498 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that kind of boils 499 00:28:53,640 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: down to these ideas about people and places being horrifying 500 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,239 Speaker 1: and you should be afraid of them, that you need 501 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: to arm yourself in defense of them. And I think 502 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: that's something that happens in cults as well. Al thought 503 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: it might not necessarily be violent, there's this indoctrineation of 504 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: fear that you need to be afraid because the only 505 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: place that you'll be safest with us, You will only 506 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: be saved as long as you are here with us, 507 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: or as long as you are here online with us 508 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: learning the truth. That's where you will find safety. And 509 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: so I think that's also key. If things that you 510 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: are normally not afraid of are now being talked about 511 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: or treated as these potentially sites of danger, that's a 512 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: red flag. So dr asked how are cults typically disbanded? 513 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: So is it typically like a whistle blower? Is it 514 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: typically that like law enforcement gets involved, Like how do 515 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: cults typically end if they do? I think all of 516 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: those are absolutely possible. It really just depends on the organization. 517 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: And I think that actually points back to that question 518 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: about the difference between the cult and a religion. Often 519 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: the difference is just time. Hosts often kind of self 520 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: implode as opposed to religions, which we know last for 521 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: maybe centuries over time, and so it might be the 522 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: result of a whistleblower who identifies these kind of dangerous 523 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: happening within the organization, and this is something that we 524 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: know happened with ellegial bishops called or nature boys code. 525 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: Someone escaped and shared with law enforcement some of what 526 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: had happened to her, and so the leader was arrested. 527 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: And typically once the leader was arrested, people disband on 528 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: their own because it is the leader who has the 529 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: final say, who makes all of the decisions, and so 530 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: everyone else has kind of left to themselves. So often 531 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: it is I think, the involvement of law enforcement. But 532 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: I think also unfortunately there are instances, like with jonestown, 533 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: where the leader might harm themselves or ask the members 534 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: to harm themselves, and those are the most horrific, of course, 535 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: examples of the end of a cult, and that is 536 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: by asking members to take their own lives. So, you know, 537 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: you just brought up an interesting point, like let's say 538 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: the leader of a culte is arrested, and so that 539 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: then means that there are probably tons of people who, 540 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, we're still actively engaged and hadn't recognized like 541 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: what they had fallen into. You mentioned that they're like 542 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: licensed professionals. I don't know if these are therapists or 543 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: some other kind of professional who help people kind of 544 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: when they leave. I'm wondering if you can speak any 545 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: to the process of like once you leave a culte 546 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: like how do you kind of reintegrate with society and 547 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: like kind of you know, undo maybe some of the 548 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: psychological horn that was doing. Yes, So my research I 549 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: found that some people actually once these kind of leaders 550 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: have fallen. I covered, for example, on Shinrikyo, which was 551 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: a cult created by Shako Asahara in Japan, and they 552 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: left these neural toxin attack again to the Tokyo subway 553 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: system with neural toxins, and once Shako Asahara and some 554 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: of the other primary leaders were arrested, some of the 555 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: group members obviously they often try to reintegrate, while some 556 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: other members actually created a subset, so a subset of 557 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: a cult. So they took many of the teachings that 558 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: they had learned from a Sahara, they reshaped them, distanced 559 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: themselves from the violence, but they effectively recreated the organization. 560 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: So I think that's one unfortunate possibility. But I think 561 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: that what I have found about people who are trying 562 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: to reintegrate, it seems to be quite difficult. But with 563 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: the help of therapists and with the help of ex 564 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: members of either the same group or similar groups, people 565 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: have to get help in terms of figuring out how 566 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: to reconnect with family members maybe that they have pushed apart, 567 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: which can be very difficult figuring out how to reintegrate 568 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: themselves into the workforce. So if you have this gap 569 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: on your resume of time that's unexplained, it can be 570 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: difficult to say to a potential employer. While I was 571 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: living on a commune for about seven years, and that's 572 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: why I don't have any work experience. So again, I 573 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: think that's why it's so important to reach out to 574 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: licensed professionals, and I was referring to therapists there to 575 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: figure out one mentally how to deal without that, but 576 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: also to work with ex members of the same or 577 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: similar groups to align with folks who can't help with that. 578 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: So who can you speak to who knows exactly what 579 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: you've been through about how to fix your resume, about 580 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: how to go about mending those friendships, about how to 581 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: go about mending those familiar relationships that were damaged. So 582 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier in talking about Jonestown that some of 583 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: that was really fueled by like the racism and just 584 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: like all the injustices that were going on in in 585 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: Oakland and in the California area in the Bay Area 586 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: at that time. Are there other cults or other groups 587 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: that you found that have formed almost as like a 588 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: response to racism or that's what it looks like like, 589 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: that's how people get involved within it actually is, you know, 590 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: an exploitative kind of a relationship. Yes. Actually I covered 591 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: the Church of Universal Triumph, Domain of which was led 592 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: by Prophet Jones. I covered that group on TikTok End 593 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: in my newsletter, and I looked at the Dominion Nights, 594 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: that was what the parishioners were called, And I asked myself, 595 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: why wouldn't mid century black Detroiters who were facing racial 596 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: violence in their neighborhoods and in the factories that worked 597 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: in want to believe in a leader who tells them 598 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: that their troubles are all temporary. By simply being obedient 599 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: to God and to Jones, they would be granted the 600 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: eternal reward of ruling over their earthly tormentors. So much 601 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: of their attraction to Jones and to the church. The 602 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: church also symbolized a an eternal safety. So well, after 603 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: everything on earth had ended and they had survived all 604 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: of the turmoil the racial termoil, especially, they would be 605 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,720 Speaker 1: rewarded by God with something else, and so it doesn't 606 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: really seem too surprising that they would believe in Jones 607 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: and his predatory behaviors or accept his predatory behaviors because 608 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: they would be rewarded later for that. M M. You know, 609 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: Dr Ashe, I wonder if, like maybe you are other 610 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: people who research this kind of thing are seeing an 611 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: increase in people joining cults related to the isolation of 612 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: the pandemic are because there has been so much tension 613 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: around where masks, don't wear a mask, get vaccinated, don't 614 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,479 Speaker 1: get vaccinated. Like it definitely feels like some of those 615 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: conditions feel right for people kind of being pushed in 616 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: some ways to the fringes. Can you talk a little 617 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: bit about like any upticks that we've seen or that 618 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: you've seen in this Absolutely, I think everything you just 619 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: mentioned those conditions I think paired with the looming economic 620 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,439 Speaker 1: crises of the time as well. All of those things 621 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: have happened before, and history tells us that when we 622 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: have this kind of political tension, the looming economic crises, 623 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: a lot of fear about disease or about just things 624 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,720 Speaker 1: that we don't fully understand, people do turn to French 625 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: organizations to try to understand what may be happening in 626 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: the world because long standing in traditional religion may not 627 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: be providing them those answers. And social media, I think 628 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 1: has provided a lot of people a platform to situate 629 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: themselves as experts, as gurus who can provide the answers 630 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: that traditional religious paths cannot. And I think that is 631 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: why we might see virtually a lot more Facebook groups 632 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: or YouTube enthusiasts, people who are developing and building a 633 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: following based off their ability to provide their followers with 634 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: the answers or with enlightenment things like that. And I 635 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: think that being at home and being isolated has definitely 636 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: contributed to that so much because people have now they 637 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: quite literally could not leave and go seek out answers. 638 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: They were isolated because we couldn't go out, we couldn't 639 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: go anywhere, And so you have this community online that 640 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: provides maybe somewhat of what you were used to before. 641 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: There is some familiarity in that. And I certainly think 642 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: that there has been an uptick in the different types 643 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: of groups online, and I think a lot of them 644 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: may not be categorized as cults, but they might just 645 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: be kind of groups that meet, and they might be 646 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory based groups or things like that that we 647 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: see leaders exerting lots of control over. Thank you for that. 648 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: So this is all so fascinating not to ask, and 649 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,919 Speaker 1: I know people will want to stay connected with you 650 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: and figure out how they can learn more about what 651 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: you're sharing. What is your website as well as any 652 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: social media handles you'd like to share? Sure, I actually 653 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: am on all social asked who asked ash? I have 654 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: the Cult Community newsletter. It's Cult Community dot Substact dot com. 655 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: All of that is available to LinkedIn my bio and 656 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: it's easily accessible. Perfect. Well, thank you so much, like 657 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: to ask, I really appreciate sharing with us today. Thank 658 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: you for having me. This was so much Thank you. 659 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: I'm so glad Dr Ashe was able to share her 660 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: expertise with us today. To learn more about her and 661 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: her work, be sure to visit the show notes at 662 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session to sixty seven, 663 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: and be sure to text two of your girls right 664 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 1: now and tell them to check out the episode. If 665 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure 666 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black 667 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: Girls dot Com slash directory and if you want to 668 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: continue digging into this topic or just be in community 669 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: with other sisters, come on over and join us in 670 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet 671 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: design just for black women. You can join us at 672 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,280 Speaker 1: Community not Therapy for Black Girls dot com. This episode 673 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: was produced by Freda Lucas and Alice Ellis and editing 674 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all so 675 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: much for joining me again this week. I look forward 676 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: to continue in this conversation with you all real soon. 677 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: Take good care when the Bretwood text Wood