1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: Hello, This is a free call from Jim, an incarcerated 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: individual at they No Correctional Center. This call is subject 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: to recording and monitoring. 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: James de Gorski hates rudeness, especially when it comes to 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: the police. 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: Please Please, literally came up to me and said, what's 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: your name? Just very arrogant and very rude. 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 2: It sounds like you're pretty big on respect. 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 3: You've mentioned that a few times, that they were really 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 3: just disrespectful and inappropriate. 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: Sounds like you introduce yourself to so many. That's so 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: we start off on the wrong path. 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 2: I spoke to James on the phone from prison and 14 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 2: he explained the saga of his relationship with the police 15 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: officers who would end up arresting him in an Illinois 16 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: town called Palatine. 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: Palatine Please didn't like me from high school because I 18 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't stitch on broke into all the lockers. So well, 19 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: I was being a janitor there. Somebody broke in the 20 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: lockers and I didn't see who did it, and I 21 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: didn't speculate. I already had a problem with these Peloton 22 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: police from that He's throw tiger parties and they didn't 23 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: like that, so I just I had problem with Peloton. 24 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 2: Police, and the way James responded to the police wouldn't 25 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 2: exactly help him in the long run. 26 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 4: So James is one of those guys who's very sarcastic 27 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 4: and he had a arrogance to him at that time. 28 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 2: This is Ashley Cohen. She's a partner at Bonjin Law Group. 29 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 4: He would probably be the type of person to make 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 4: a joke that's not funny and that the police would 31 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 4: maybe turn into fact of sorts. You know, someone who 32 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 4: seems cold, but he's been through a lot and he 33 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 4: deals with his trauma by you know, humorizing it, or 34 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 4: he just thought they were crazy. 35 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: These police are crazy, I'm not exaggerating. Unprofessional from the 36 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: get go, and they're consultational bullies and they escalated everything 37 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: the police. These police, not police in general. I have 38 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: nothing against the police. I have found with authority that 39 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: abuses to think they're above the law and above our constitution. 40 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: That's where I have a problem, and. 41 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: James thinks that's exactly what happened in his case. 42 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: My name is James de Gorski. I've been wrong. Sley 43 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: inclcerated for the. 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: Last twenty two years from Lava for Good. This is 45 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 2: wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling today. James Degorski James de 46 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: Gorski was born in Chicago, Illinois, on August twentieth, nineteen 47 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: seventy two. 48 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: I've raised in off the Estates, Mon Prospect and Arlington Heights. 49 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: We had a very, very tight family. At seven, I 50 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: had an older fitter you knew, a younger brother and 51 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: a younger fitter. 52 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: Jim, as he likes to be called, says his mom 53 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: stayed home raising the kids, and his dad worked at motorola. 54 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: So what was family life like? 55 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 3: Was it? 56 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: Loving? Fun, messy, lots of yelling. Tell me about it. 57 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for asking, because the last twenty some years it's 58 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: been about mitigation. But actually I have no complaints and 59 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: no regrets. I had an awesome family. We didn't the 60 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: normal things a family would do, go to church every Sunday. 61 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: We'd have family game night with pizza and all my 62 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: friends were welcome. 63 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: Jim remembers family vacations and camping trips and just hanging 64 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: with his siblings. 65 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: We grew up at the edge of the urban sprawl, 66 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: where with a cornerfield that started the Meadows Woods, the 67 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: Kanton Pounds and fourth much where we spent most of 68 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: my time. Bill Fifth in Bill Ramport, be on next bike, 69 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: hang out with some older friends motorcycles and they board ramp. 70 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: Pretty independent. I was basically a free range. 71 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: Fit for so. Jim says. His parents let him leave 72 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 2: at sunrise and return when the street lights were coming on. 73 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: He was independent, and because his dad worked so much, 74 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: Jim says, he also stepped in as a father figure. 75 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know how I say it. 76 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: I was like my brothers and my sister's dad, and 77 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: I took them everywhere. I took my brothers and sisters. 78 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: He just did everything. My older friends that I had 79 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: even enjoyed them around. So we had a blast as 80 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: a kid. I got no complaints about my dysfunctional family. 81 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: Jim says being free range, as he calls it, allowed 82 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: him to explore his curiosity. You know those annoying little 83 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 2: kids always asking why. 84 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: They just he's saying why, and then you answer, and 85 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: they say why, and then they answer it, they say why. 86 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 2: That was him, He calls them why kids. 87 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: I was one of those irritating kids. But hindsight, I 88 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: guess I wasn't irritating because my neighbor's always answered my 89 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: why why questions. 90 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: And Jim learned things roaming around talking to the adults. 91 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: I just go to my neighbor's house and he does upholstery, 92 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: so I could help him do a polstery. And the 93 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: guy would throw me twenty dollars. His friend, his little kid, 94 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: throw me twenty dollars just to hear his stories. 95 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 2: Jim says. Another neighbor built toy cars. 96 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: I didn't want to play with the RC cars, which 97 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: he thought. I wanted to learn how to do electronics, 98 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: so the guy was teaching me electronics. This is all 99 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: in grammar school. 100 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: Growing up, His brothers delivered newspapers to help his parents 101 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: out with money. But Jim, I. 102 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: Would go garbage picking while they delivered their newspapers. And 103 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: then I'd get stuff by the trash and fix your 104 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: name in VCRs, radios, turlie and irens, blow dryers I'd 105 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: get I'd get a pretty good money by selling stuff 106 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: that I can garbage hick when you find one hundred 107 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: dollars VCR thrown in the trash, and all you need 108 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: is a fourteenth cent hues and a pretty profitable I 109 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: had a free apprenticeship as a kid, being one of 110 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: those whyy why kids with all my neighbor Jim says 111 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: he didn't mind helping his parents because this was all 112 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: fun to him anyway. Just doing that as just like 113 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: a hobby in a way. But I had money, so 114 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: I helped my parents paid the bills or the watter, 115 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: do our little vacations, campouts and whatever. I was often 116 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: letting my parents brain my favorite account down to zero, 117 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,799 Speaker 1: trying to keep the electric and the hour on. Whatever 118 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: problems we're having. Even with our van, our car would 119 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: break down, So. 120 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: Jim says he learned how to fix car breaks in 121 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 2: grammar school. He was a hustler for sure. In his 122 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: freshman year, Jim worked as a janitor at his high school, 123 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 2: cleaning the cafeteria and vacuuming hallways after class, and with 124 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 2: the money he was able to keep for himself, he 125 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: would buy tools. 126 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: So in high school I started doing things like fixing cars, 127 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: their bikes, mini bikes. 128 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: He eventually rented out his mom's garage and had his 129 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: own mechanics shop there. 130 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: I had a friend Reggie in high school that him 131 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 1: and I were going to open a mechanic shop together. 132 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: We're going to build race cars, And we started in 133 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: my garage. We're popping motors in all the time we're 134 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: taking out We're taking out three o sevens, popping in 135 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: three fifties. So I was doing a lot of that stuff. 136 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: And when I started making good money makes I had 137 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: extra money to give away or charity for do whatever. 138 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: If it sounds like Jim de Gorski didn't have time 139 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: for any more activities, he was still going to high 140 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: school and church and volunteering. Jim de Gorski thought he 141 00:07:52,360 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: had the perfect life until police came knocking on the 142 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: morning of Friday, January eighth, nineteen ninety three. Jim remembers 143 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 2: waking up to his mom asking him to move a 144 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 2: car that was blocking the driveway. 145 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: So I had to get up and move his car. 146 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: The car belonged to Jim's high school friend, Juan Luna. 147 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: He'd been in some sort of accident and Jan left 148 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: the car at Jim's place to get fixed. 149 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: I don't really know what he'd needs done, he got 150 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: tee boned or the side damage. So I fixed his car. 151 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: Jim says he waited for one to pick up the 152 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: car and pay him for the repairs, and when he didn't, I. 153 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: Took his car. I took it on a joy ride. 154 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: I was so mad. I'm like, I just loaded up 155 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: his car and went out and did what I did 156 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: my rounds. 157 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 2: He drove the car about ten miles west to Carpentersville 158 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 2: just to screw with Wan. 159 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: It's kind of like an impovertish area with like a 160 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: high crime area out of Chicago Land and it's far out, 161 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: it's almost rural. Left his I left his car there 162 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: being rude. It's a long distance away for him to 163 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: go pick up his car. And if you want your 164 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: car so bad, come pick it up. He paged me 165 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: twenty times and literally cussing me out. 166 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 2: Jim says he left the car parked at jewel Osco, 167 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 2: the grocery store, and then his girlfriend at the time, 168 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: Eileen Baccala, picked him. 169 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: Up so so she got off work early. She came 170 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: to meet me a. 171 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 2: Jewel and they hung out the rest of the night 172 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 2: smoking weed and cat sitting. 173 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: It's a boring knife or whatever. 174 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: The next day, Jim and everyone in the Chicago suburbs 175 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: woke up to big news a massacre at a Brown's 176 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 2: Chicken and Pasta in Palatine, Illinois. Palatine is about thirty 177 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 2: miles north of downtown Chicago. At the time, it was 178 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: a sleepy suburb where even one murder a year was rare, 179 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 2: so the whole community was shaken when news spread that 180 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: seven people were gunned down inside the fast food restaurant 181 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: shortly after closing around eight pm. Two of the victims 182 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: were the owners, Lynn and Richard Allenfeldt, a married couple 183 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: who had just bought the franchise months prior, looking for 184 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: a fresh start after Richard had lost his job. The 185 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: other victims were employees Guadalupe Maldonado, Thomas Menez, Marcus Nelson, 186 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: Rico Solis, and Michael Castro. Rico and Michael were both 187 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 2: teenagers from the local high school working part time. It 188 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 2: was a bloody murder. Five of the victims were found 189 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: in the walk and cooler of the restaurant. Some had 190 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 2: been stabbed, one had their throat slit, and all had 191 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: been shot. Less than two thousand dollars was stolen from 192 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: the restaurant. 193 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 4: The investigation went down as you would imagine a ninety 194 00:10:53,920 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 4: three mass killing investigation went down where it was a mess. 195 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 2: This is Ashley Cohen again. Ashley says, although the scene 196 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: at the restaurant was chaotic. 197 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 4: There was a ton of forensic evidence pulled from the scene. 198 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 4: There were like two hundred fingerprints, there was food still 199 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 4: in the trash containers, there were bloody shoe prints. I mean, 200 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 4: anything and everything you imagine in forensic science and analysis 201 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 4: was present at this crime scene. 202 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: One key piece of evidence was a receipt. 203 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 4: So there was a cash register that appeared to have 204 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 4: been closed and reopened to sell a meal at nine 205 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 4: to eight pm. The receipt was consistent with the meal 206 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,599 Speaker 4: that was discovered in the trash can. That led investigators 207 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 4: to believe that one of the offenders may have purchased 208 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 4: the meal prior to the shooting. 209 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: Since it was closing time, the trash cans were empty 210 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: except for one four piece chicken meal. 211 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 4: One of the female investigators had the foresight to freeze 212 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 4: a eaten chicken bone that was in the trash and 213 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 4: I just recall she was a female, because females are 214 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 4: smart and have the future insight that there she saw 215 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 4: significance and was like, maybe we could use this eventually, 216 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 4: and so she froze it. 217 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 2: Jim was shook when he heard about the murders, not 218 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,479 Speaker 2: only because things like this didn't happen in Palatine, Illinois, 219 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: but because Wan used to work. 220 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: There, a few of his friends actually worked there too, 221 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: So we were just shocked that it happened so close 222 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: to home. 223 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 2: Do you remember talking to him about it at all? 224 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm more because it was a lot of time ago. 225 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: I was at a party and it was one of 226 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: his friends. So we were over at his friend's house 227 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: and I saw an article they had on the wall, 228 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: and that was pretty much the longest conversation I ever 229 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: really had about it. How shocking that looking at my friends, 230 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: like justin you could have this could have been you. 231 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think the longest conversation I ever had. 232 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: Jim didn't think much more about it until the police 233 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: showed up at his door two years later asking about. 234 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 1: Juan Luna nineteen ninety five. The police came to my 235 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: house and asked me about his alibi. They said they're 236 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: just doing they're doing follow up with a former employees alibi, 237 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: and then Jan Luna used me as an alibi. I'm like, 238 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: wasn't that like three years ago? 239 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 2: Jim says he felt put on the spot. He'd forgotten 240 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: all about that day he took one's car for a 241 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: joy ride. 242 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: Of course, I didn't remember what I was doing today, 243 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: so they did kind of a rude question to sit 244 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: there and asked me what I was doing three years earlier. 245 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: So I didn't like that whole thing. 246 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: Apparently Wan Luna had told police that he'd been working 247 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: with Jim that day at his career fixing cars. 248 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: I never employed Lula never. Wan never worked at my house, 249 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: never worked in my shop never, So that was the 250 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: first thing that I just laughed about. The guy doesn't 251 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: even help me in my shop, so they'll have this 252 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: whole story that he's working for me in my shop. 253 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: I started what happened. 254 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: Jim says the interaction with police did not go well. 255 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 2: He was sarcastic and arrogant because he says the police 256 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 2: embarrassed him by coming to his house, and he was 257 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: bothered by the fact that they expected him to remember 258 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: on the spot something that happened almost three years prior. 259 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 2: So he brushed them off. 260 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: When he left me in nineteen ninety five, said they 261 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: were going to go reinvestigate him. And then I went 262 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: to a party as a remodeling party were remodeling a 263 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: friend's house and it was kind of funny because their 264 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: sister knew who Juan was, so it was funny for 265 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: everybody at the remodeling party to hear that these police 266 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: are going to go harass him again. We thought it 267 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: was funny and we had a conversation then and then 268 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: I talked to Line after that, but he just never 269 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: really said anything and never acted guilty or concerned or anything. 270 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: I didn't think the cues involved whatsoever. 271 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: The police had been investigating the Browns Chicken murders for 272 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 2: more than two years. Ashley says they went through a 273 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: lot of potential suspects. According to one report, the police 274 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: would end up chasing down over four thousand leads. 275 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 4: There were a lot of investigations, There were a lot 276 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 4: of different players. There was a whole task force assigned 277 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 4: to investigating this mass murder, and it was It was 278 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 4: one of those situations where people were just desperate to 279 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 4: find answers. 280 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: And then the case went cold for seven more years. 281 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: Shortly after the murders, a Palatine council member started a 282 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: reward fund. It started with one thousand dollars, then the 283 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: community chipped in, raising almost one hundred thousand dollars for 284 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: any information leading to an arrest and conviction in the case. 285 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: There was a lot of public pressure to solve this case. 286 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: The media hounded law enforcement looking for answers. Civil advocates 287 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 2: blasted police for public dishonesty and deception, but nothing happened. Then, 288 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: nine years after the murder, in the spring of two 289 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: thousand and two, Jim Degorski was called to the police 290 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: station for questioning. Jim says he didn't think he had 291 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: anything to run from, so he went. 292 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: And it was the same sergeant that talked to me 293 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: all the way back in nineteen ninety five, which was 294 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: not good. I remember him from his lashes and the 295 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: way he talked, so I was kind of sarcastic to 296 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: him from the get go. 297 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: Jim sat down with law enforcement, including police Commander William King, 298 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: and then. 299 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: Was talking to me. He just asked me basic general 300 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: questions about the same alibi. But before before I left, 301 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: like he started asking me about he basically said, we 302 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: have two suspects DNA, we have two suspects fingerprints, and 303 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: we and we have an eyewitness. We have eyewitnesses of 304 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: the murderers. So the guy who says everybody's a suspect, 305 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: So would you give us your DNA or your or 306 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: your fingerprints to clear your name, and you did so. I, oh, yeah, 307 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: I guess. I gave my DNA, like ten slabs of DNA. 308 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: I gave him my whole entire handprint, including the top 309 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: where I don't even have fingerprints. I gave them all 310 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 1: that stuff. But they asked me a bunch of questions 311 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: before I left, like if I had any problem with 312 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: one of my ex girlfriends and trying to have something 313 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: like that, and then that's right as I was leaving. 314 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 2: Did you have any problems with ex girlfriends at the time. 315 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: No, not at all. I didn't even I didn't even 316 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: understand the line of questioning next time I'm being arrested 317 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: at my work parking lot. 318 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: That ex girlfriend police were asking about was Anne Lockett. 319 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 2: Jim and Anne had dated around the time of the murders, 320 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 2: when he was twenty. They'd met through one in high school. 321 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: Jim says Anne had demons, she'd been in rehab and 322 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: spent some time in a psychiatric hospital following a suicide attempt, 323 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 2: but she was also fun. She wanted to learn how 324 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 2: to work on cars, and they both liked the outdoors. 325 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: We were great tree hugger. So we went hiking inside 326 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: and all the trees hadible foods. Every day that we're 327 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: going through eating herbs. It's fun to go camping, hiking 328 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: with knocking out her life. Bucket left the whole entire 329 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: time we dated. But a lot of my friends did 330 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: not care for her. 331 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 2: Why didn't they. 332 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: Like her, didn't trust her, didn't like her. 333 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 2: Ann was different than Jim's friends. 334 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: Some of my friends are yuppies. Some of my friends 335 00:18:54,840 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: are gearheads. I have different groups of friends, and they 336 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: liked me day nurse. A lot of people they voiced it, 337 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: Jim says. 338 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: Back in high school, she was the type to hang 339 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: out with the heavy partying crowd, the burnouts at the 340 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 2: back of the school cafeteria, as Jim calls them. 341 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: She's like me. She goes a lot of concerts, so 342 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 1: she goes like she likes that death metal stuff, like 343 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 1: the Cannibal corpse stuff. Oh, and she wore the leather 344 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: jacket heavy metal parties and tiger parties, and she got 345 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: some wild stories of all her party lifestyle. So a 346 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: lot of my friends didn't really care for that. 347 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: His relationship with Anne worked for about a year, he says, 348 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 2: until they broke up seven years later. In two thousand 349 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: and two, Anne Lockett came forward with a story. Anne 350 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 2: said that Jim had called her while she was at 351 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: the psychiatric hospital on January ninth, nineteen ninety three, the 352 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: day after the murders. She said that she. 353 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 4: Received a call from James de Gorski at a payphone 354 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 4: at the hospital and that he told her to watch 355 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 4: the news because he had done something big. So she 356 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 4: turns on the television and saw that the lead story 357 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 4: on the news was the Browns Chicken murder. 358 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 2: Police said Anne had information only the killers would have known. 359 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: She said she waited so long to come forward because 360 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 2: she'd been afraid Jim would kill her. On May sixteenth, 361 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 2: two thousand and two, Jim Degorski and Wan Luna were 362 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: arrested for the Browns Chicken murders. Jim lived in Indianapolis 363 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: at the time and was about to start work when 364 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 2: two officers showed up, including Police Commander William King. Again 365 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 2: literally told me to. 366 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: Leave my inhaler, put your FN hands on the fing car. 367 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: They started off all wrong, embarrassed front of my co workers, 368 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: in front of my friends, the gas station, the subway, 369 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: in front of my it was bad. 370 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: They got in the car and drove four hours to Palatine. 371 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: And it just went downhill from then because I literally 372 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: had to go to the bathroom the whole time, and 373 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: they made me hold it all the way to the 374 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: Illinois border. I was in pain. 375 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: Jim says he also had a job interview. 376 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: After work, which is why my sister didn't put out 377 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: an app for me. They wouldn't let me change my 378 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: clothes from my work all day. I'm a blue collar 379 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: I do a property management, property maintenance. I'm dirty. They 380 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't let me change my clothes. They wouldn't let me 381 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: grab my inhaler, they wouldn't let me grab my I 382 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: have a Nextel Slash cell phone. They wouldn't let me 383 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: even chirp on that. 384 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 2: Jim was pissed, just like the other times he encountered 385 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: Palatime police. 386 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: So by the time we got in the interrogation room, 387 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: we started off the wrong way with them being confrontational bullies, 388 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: escalating everything, and. 389 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 2: It only got worse from there. What were you thinking? 390 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: Honestly, these counts are so unprofessional. I didn't know what 391 00:21:59,000 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: they were going to do next. 392 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 2: Were you scared? 393 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: Terrified? 394 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 2: Police said Jim waved his Miranda rights, but he remembers 395 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 2: it differently. 396 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: They wouldn't let me use their phone since they wouldn't 397 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: let me take my phone to call my lawyer. So 398 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: I have two attorney friends based family friends. I had 399 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: no rights, what's one? I was terrified the whole time. 400 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: Eventually police told Jim why they were holding him. They 401 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 2: said he and Wan Luna had robbed the Brown's Chicken 402 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: restaurant and killed everyone inside, and they had the DNA 403 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 2: to prove it from that chicken bone the investigator saved 404 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety three. 405 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 4: The case went cold. Then DNA starts vamping up. They 406 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 4: test the chicken bone and Juan Luna's a match. I 407 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 4: think once the DNA hit against Juan Luna, they built 408 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 4: their case around that. 409 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: The police told Jim that after murdering the Browns Chicken 410 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 2: employees in cold blood, he and Juan met Eileen Bacala, 411 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: his girl friend, at the jewel oscar parking lot in 412 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: Carpentersville with a duffel bag full of cash. Then they 413 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 2: all drove together to another town to meet a friend, 414 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 2: and in that ride, one and Jim bragged about what 415 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 2: they'd done. 416 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: Once they accused me and started putting me into the narrative. 417 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 1: That's when I started saying out no, and I'm going 418 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: to remain asilent. 419 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: Jim says police were using his alibi to actually implicate 420 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 2: him in the murder. 421 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: They have put words in my mouth and they mixed 422 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: my truth with lies, and they're telling me what other 423 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: people are saying, which I know are lies. And they 424 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't tell me after a while who was saying what, 425 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: so that would get really confusing. And this kept this 426 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: is this NonStop. This is going on like a tag team. 427 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: It was relentless until finally Jim allegedly confessed. 428 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 4: He allegedly made oral statements. 429 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 2: King brought in assistant state's attorney Michael McAll to take 430 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 2: his statement on camera. So, was there a statement that 431 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: you made? 432 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: So what they were trying to do is tell me 433 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: we will let you use the telephone right now. All 434 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: you have to do is say that you did this. 435 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: They will let you use the phone. Just say that 436 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: you just did this, Say that Luna did this, say this, 437 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: Say they're telling me what to say. And then if 438 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: I say that on a video, and it was incriminating. 439 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 2: Police said Jim admitted that he and Wan were involved 440 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 2: in the crime, but then refused to further elaborate on camera. 441 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: I don't even know what the video said. I think 442 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: I said yeah, right to their narrative m and then 443 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: immediately said that now I get to talk to my 444 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: Now I can talk to a judge. 445 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 2: So did you get to use the phone? 446 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: Never? 447 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 2: Jan Luna allegedly confessed as well, saying that he'd been 448 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: with Jim all day working on cars, then they'd robbed 449 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: the Browns Chicken and then met Eileen at the jewel Osco. 450 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: Did you have a lot of support when this happened? 451 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 2: Do people believe you did this? 452 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: Oh? My god, My friends thought I had absolutely no 453 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: involvement in this whatsoever. Every time they tried to voice it, 454 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: they were literally told to shut up and as far 455 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: as shut the fuck up, and then as far as 456 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: the police literally threatening them telling them that they better lie, 457 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: tell me you better say this, or basically threaten them 458 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,479 Speaker 1: with going to Cook County jail. They couldn't even have voice. 459 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: My their beliefs were not even accepted. They were told 460 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: this and threatened by this, and they basically feared for 461 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: their lives from the police and from this crazy vigilante 462 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: psychos in society. 463 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 2: Jim says his family got the worst of it and 464 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: were tormented for being related to a Brown's Chicken murderer. 465 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: They didn't do anything wrong. I didn't do anything wrong 466 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: at all. But my family did absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever, 467 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: and the least bit to be persecuting them and targeting 468 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: with comments even it's wrong. 469 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: Jim sat in jail for years and finally went to 470 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 2: trial in August two thousand and nine, sixteen years after 471 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: the murders. The prosecution had painted one and Jim as 472 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 2: quote people without a soul who went on a killing 473 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 2: spree just for the thrill of it. It was all 474 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 2: over the news and now Jim was facing the death penalty. 475 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 4: By the time trial came along, he just knew I'm toast. 476 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 4: Nobody gives a shit about me. And I mean, if 477 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 4: you read the trial, I would say like ten percent 478 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 4: of it is actually is a defense and ninety percent 479 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 4: of it is offense on the part of his public 480 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 4: defender to try to not get him to get the 481 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 4: death penalty. It was all mitigation, like everything was you are, 482 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 4: You're going to be convicted, so let's just mitigate and 483 00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 4: let's not get you the death penalty. 484 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 2: The prosecution did not use the alleged tape confession by Jim. 485 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 4: They just use the testimony of the prosecutor and the 486 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 4: officer who were present for the alleged oral statements, rather 487 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 4: than the videotaped confession exactly. 488 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 2: Instead of using the video, the prosecution had King and 489 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: McHale testify about the confession. 490 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 4: The videotape confession would be the best evidence. If it's 491 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 4: a solid videotape confession, that would be the best evidence, 492 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 4: But obviously they didn't think it would play well with 493 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 4: the jury, so they didn't show it. It just was 494 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 4: not even believable on its face. 495 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 2: Since the prosecution had no forensic evidence tying Jim to 496 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 2: the murders, they relied heavily on their star witnesses. Jim's 497 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 2: ex girlfriends An Lockett and Eileen Bacalla, repeated the stories 498 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 2: they told police. Jim says, the whole experience was grueling. 499 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: I thought it was bad that I had to be forced, 500 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: actually everybody, to be honest with you, was forced to 501 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: watch that those videos and those photos, like just the 502 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: crime scene. That was one of the worst things for me. 503 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: But it was bad to listen to hand Locket's testimony, 504 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: but listening to those cops law enforcement officers under oath 505 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: lion and the calla lion, which is supposed to be 506 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: like a real good friend of mine, since for a 507 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: long time that was gut wrenching for me. Just those 508 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: two were the worst. 509 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: On September nineteenth, two thousand and nine, thirty seven year 510 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 2: old James de Gorski was convicted of all seven counts 511 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: of murder. His defense attorney Mark Levitt addressed to the press, obviously. 512 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 5: Very disappointed in the verdict that we respect to that 513 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 5: the jury is not a guilty My focus now obviously 514 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 5: turns to the setsunury and trying to convince this jury 515 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 5: to the appropriate sense for mister Devarsky life in prison. 516 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 2: The jurors agreed to life in prison, though many told 517 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: the press they wanted the death penalty and that Anne 518 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: and Eileen's testimony had convinced them Jim was guilty. 519 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: I think that their testimony was very key decisions that 520 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: we reached. 521 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: Wan Luna had gone to trial in two thousand and 522 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 2: seven and was also convicted of the murders. Jim has 523 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: been incarcerated over two decades, and he spent most of 524 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: his time alone. 525 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: I just don't fit in. So I really just preferred 526 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: just to walk around the yard by myself, do things 527 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: by myself. If I can help out where it comes 528 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: to a school work or I went to a college 529 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: program and stuff like that, I don't mind helping people 530 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: do stuff like that. 531 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 2: But Jim says he's a different person on the inside. 532 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: Kindness is considered a weakness and to me, to avoid 533 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: fighting and whatever. I don't put myself out as charitable 534 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: because you can't be charitable. I'm not in I only 535 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: want to describe this environment. 536 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 2: Has your family supported you while you're in there? 537 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got a great family. I got a great 538 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: support network through them. They just I'm an embarrassment to 539 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: them now. I was like that brother that was actually 540 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: like a father. When I first got arrested, it was 541 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: nice to get happy Father's Day cards for my sibling. Yeah, 542 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: so they've been supportive. It just they don't know what 543 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: to do, and I really don't know what to do either. 544 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 2: Jim met the Bojin Law group where Ashley is partner, 545 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 2: when he was first arrested for the murders in the 546 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 2: early two thousands. 547 00:30:54,600 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 4: One James was arrested. He went Cook County Jail, and 548 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 4: when a correction officer found out that he was the 549 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 4: Brown's Chicken murderer, he punched him so hard in the 550 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 4: face that it broke one of the plates in his face. 551 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 2: So Jim hired Jennifer Bonjin to file a civil case. 552 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 4: James felt very strongly about Jenny because she was the 553 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 4: only one who would even consider his case. I mean, 554 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 4: you have a guy who was accused of one of 555 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 4: the biggest mass murders in Illinois at that time, and 556 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 4: nobody wants to represent the Brown's Chicken murder. So she 557 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 4: she did. She represented him, and she got a pretty 558 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 4: favorable verdict for him. 559 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 2: She got him over five hundred thousand dollars in damages. 560 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 4: So once they got to know each other, he said, 561 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 4: will you represent. 562 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: Me in his post conviction proceedings. 563 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 4: I think we started investigating his criminal case around two thousand, 564 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 4: fifteen twenty fourteen. We just hit the ground running doing 565 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 4: investigation for him. 566 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 2: What specifically were you interested in? 567 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 3: Because there's a thousand cases you could take, you know, 568 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 3: why look at this one? 569 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 4: What was it? I think that the fact that he 570 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 4: was claiming actual innocence was appealing to Jenny. Also, the 571 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 4: evidence is just really scarce. It's just not as It's 572 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 4: not what they paint in the media. 573 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 2: Remember, police found no evidence tying Jim to the murder scene. 574 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 4: The fact that this was like a massacre of the 575 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 4: scene with blood everywhere and fingerprints everywhere and hair and 576 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 4: all of this analysis, all of his DNA and not 577 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 4: a single stitch of evidence was found to implicate James 578 00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 4: was seem very problematic. When we started investigating James's case, 579 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 4: a lot of there were a lot of holes in 580 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 4: the story, in the investigation, everything seemed very confusing and 581 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 4: not clear. And why ten years later, and also why 582 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 4: were these two guys, Wan Luna and James de Gorski 583 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 4: the suspects, Like, usually you don't just go murder seven 584 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 4: people and then go about their merry business just living. 585 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 2: Their lives, Ashley says. Another thing that didn't make sense 586 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,719 Speaker 2: was how the prosecution painted Wan Luna as a disgruntled employee. 587 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 4: There wasn't really any testimony or anything that he was 588 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 4: a disgruntled employee. I mean, the woman who owned the restaurant, 589 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 4: her throat was slashed. And these are young kids who 590 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 4: are all killed. Just because you don't like one person 591 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 4: your prior employment doesn't mean you're murdering everybody who works there. 592 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: There were other leads the police pursued that seem much 593 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 2: more plausible, like one about gangs committing similar crimes in 594 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 2: the area. 595 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 4: That makes more sense to me, not just a senseless 596 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 4: killing for no apparent reason from a disgruntled employee. 597 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 2: And Ashley says she thinks Swan's confession, similar to Jim's, 598 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 2: was coerced. 599 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 4: The police really, you know, threatened to deport his wife, 600 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 4: They refused to let him use his phone or see 601 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 4: his son, and that they were screaming at him. He 602 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 4: was an immigrant, so they were threatening to deport him, 603 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 4: deport his family, take his kid away from him, typical 604 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 4: tactics that we see with police interrogations, and he probably 605 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 4: feared for his life and the safety of his family. 606 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 2: Ashley and the Bonjin team also looked at Ann Lockett, 607 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 2: the star witness and Jim's ex girlfriend. They wound up 608 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 2: tracking down her roommate at the psychiatric facil she was 609 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 2: in at the time of the murder in nineteen ninety three, and. 610 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 4: We started talking to her about the protocols because just 611 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 4: when you're suicidal, You're not gonna be at a psychiatric 612 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 4: facility that is going to give you access to anything 613 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 4: and everything on the outside world that is probably causing 614 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 4: you distress in the first place, right, so you are 615 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 4: likely not able to get phone calls on a payphone. 616 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 4: It just the face value of her testimony seemed very implausible. 617 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 2: Not only did they find it would be highly unlikely 618 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 2: Jim was able to call a payphone at the psychiatric 619 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 2: center to tell Anne about the murder, but on top 620 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 2: of that. 621 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 4: She was dating somebody else. His name was Richard Billock. 622 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 4: We found Richard Billock and he provided an affidavit and 623 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 4: basically said that he was the one dating her at 624 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 4: the time and that he had not been dating She 625 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 4: had not been dating James at that time. 626 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 2: And dated months after the murders. So why would Anne lie. 627 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,720 Speaker 4: An Lockett was going to receive the one hundred thousand 628 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 4: dollars in reward money, and that was our biggest issue. 629 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 4: The jury did not know that she would have received 630 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 4: money for her testimony. 631 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 2: Ashley says this is a Brady violation the prosecution hiding 632 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 2: exculpatory evidence. She says the jury could have been swayed 633 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 2: differently had they known as far as Eileen Bacala Ashley says, 634 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 2: she had a partner who was in some trouble with 635 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 2: the law at the time she came forward. 636 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 4: I think if you're anybody you know about the brown 637 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 4: chicken at the time you get arrested, You're like, what 638 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 4: if I give you information about the brown chicken murder? 639 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 4: Would that? Would that get you to not look at 640 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 4: me and look at somebody else? So, I mean, these 641 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 4: are all theories. We had no idea, but that was 642 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 4: our theory. 643 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 3: Are you resentful towards and Eileen for lying against you? 644 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: That's a good question to be resentful and that I 645 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: won't talk to him. I'll go my own way, and 646 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: I never want to see these people ever again. And 647 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: I can totally be happy content. I don't need to 648 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: answer the why questions. I was a white kid growing 649 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: up a free range why kids independent? Now, I don't 650 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: need to know the whise. I don't want to know 651 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: the whys. But I blame Pelotime Police because they were 652 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: the filter that was supposed to stop this, but instead 653 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: they did it. 654 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 2: Right now, Jim has a habeas petition pending in front 655 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 2: of the court. But Ashley worries about the charged politics 656 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:41,720 Speaker 2: of the Browns Chicken murder. 657 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 4: There's a lot of people involved in this particular situation 658 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 4: that are now judges, you know Chicago, Illinois politics that 659 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 4: they run real deep. 660 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 2: Michael McHale, who took the alleged confession from Jim and 661 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 2: testified to it at trial, is now a circuit court 662 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 2: judge in Cook County. 663 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 4: So there's probably a lot of people who want to 664 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 4: keep this dead and buried and do not want to 665 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 4: think that they got it wrong. I mean, it's hard 666 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 4: to know, but I think it would take it a 667 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 4: lot for the world to come to terms with the 668 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 4: fact that they got the Browns Chicken murderer wrong. 669 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 2: Do you think about life like, what life will be 670 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 2: like when you do get out. 671 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: I'm definitely not going to be free range. I'm definitely 672 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 1: gonna be a hermit. I'll definitely live off the grid, 673 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: and I'm maybe in this country hopefully, but if not, 674 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: I'll be a hermit somewhere else. It's the stuff that 675 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: the stuff I see here, the stuff I hear never 676 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: really saw that part of this. I knew stuff was 677 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: happening in society. I just never really talked to somebody 678 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: at rates and killed people and the stuff. I listened 679 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 1: to them for the years and just somebody talk about 680 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: robbery and murder and no, I'm gonna be hurm it. 681 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 4: Wow. 682 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 3: So you feel now that you've been in prison, your 683 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 3: apprehensive about the outside world because of how terrible it is. 684 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 2: Is kind of what you're saying. 685 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: So before I was just like social of all my neighbors. 686 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: They enjoyed me helping them with chores and taught me 687 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: these trades and how to do all this stuff. I've 688 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: learned all that from my neighbors and my community growing up. 689 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: Now I just I just want to go away from everything. 690 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: I just want to hopefully you can find something to 691 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: fix and remodel and build, and just hope you just 692 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: fix up from the friends I still have. 693 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. 694 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 2: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the 695 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 2: links in the episode description to see how you can help. 696 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 2: Thank you to Maurice Poseley. We relied on his reporting 697 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 2: about the Browns Chicken murders. We have a link to 698 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 2: his book The Browns Chicken Massacre in the episode description. 699 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 2: This episode was written by me Maggie Freeling, with story 700 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 2: editing and sound designed by senior producer Rebecca Ibarra. Our 701 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 2: producer is Kathleen Fink. Our researcher is Shelby Sorels, with 702 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 2: mixing by Josh Allen. Our executive producers are Jason Flam, 703 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 2: Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Wortis, with additional production help by 704 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 2: Jeff Cliburn. The music is by three time OSCAR nominated 705 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 2: composer Jay Ralph. Make sure to follow us on all 706 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,800 Speaker 2: social media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. 707 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 2: You can also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. 708 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava 709 00:40:52,760 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one