1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: Podcast playground Taking a Walk with Buzz Night. Well, I'm Buzznight. 2 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm the host of the Taking a Walk podcast series, 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: and everybody has a story to tell, and our guest 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: today has investigated stories during his storied career. He inaugurated 5 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: his column The Annamals of Communications, along with countless other 6 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: outstanding columns, for The New Yorker, starting back in the 7 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: early nineties. I became hooked by his writing instantly, and 8 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: he's written national bestsellers, including Three Blind Mice, The TV Networks, 9 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: Lost Their Way, Greed and Glory on Wall Street, The 10 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: Fall of the House of Lehman, and Google the End 11 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: of the World as we Know It. His new book 12 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: is called Hollywood Ending, Harvey Weinstein and the Culture of Silence. 13 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: And please welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast. Even 14 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: though it's virtual, we like doing these in person when possible, 15 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: but when the opportunity existed to speak to mister Aletta 16 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: about his book, I gladly jumped on it. So welcome 17 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: Canon Letta to the Taking a Walk Podcast. Thanks. We's 18 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: good to be here. It's an honor to speak to you. 19 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: You take on the notorious quite frequently in your investigation 20 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: what goes into your process when you select a book 21 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: topic interest, curiosity. I mean, in Harvey's case, I had 22 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: profiled him in The New Yorker in two thousand and two. 23 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: I came very close to being able to nail him 24 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 1: as a sexual creditor, but I couldn't get any women 25 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: to go on the record, so we couldn't run it. 26 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: And he denied denial, and I had no counter to that. 27 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: And then when he was exposed by two New York 28 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 1: Times reporters and then Ronan Farrell and The New Yorker 29 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: in October of twenty seventeen, I was left with several 30 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: questions that, it seems to me merited an exploration. One, 31 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: what made Harvey Weinstein the monster he became? The sexual 32 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: monster he became? I mean I profiled when I profiled 33 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: him in two thousand and two, I portrayed and tried 34 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: to explain why he was such an abusive boss and 35 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: the people in Hollywood, But the sexual side of it, 36 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: Where'd that come from? I was interested in that. Two? 37 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: How did this guy get away with abusing women for 38 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: four decades and no one ever blew the whistle on? 39 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: People had to know and his people when you interviewed 40 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:54,839 Speaker 1: people who worked for him. They said, well, we knew 41 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: he cheated on his wife. Well didn't many know more 42 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: than that? I want to explore that. Third, I thought 43 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: Harvey was an interesting profile of power, how power is 44 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: used and abused. He's a master at it, so I 45 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: thought that would be a fascinating angle to explore. And lastly, 46 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: I was fascinating the relationship between the brothers. His younger brother, 47 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: Bob two years younger, and he had been best friends, 48 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: full business partners for years, and by the end they 49 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: got into a bloody fistfight, and Bob hasn't spoken to 50 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: Harvey since early twenty eighteen, So what happened dynamics of 51 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: that relationship was also something that propelled me to want 52 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: to do a biography. Apartment WISEA well, and I know 53 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: you were further attracted into this unattractive character when you 54 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: went to sit in the courtroom during his trial, right, 55 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: I mean you were there every day pretty much. Merchant 56 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: was there every day, And I was fascinated by Harvey, 57 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: the assert of Harvey when you watched him in court. 58 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: And I always took the aisle seat in the fourth row, 59 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: which gave me a direct line of sight to Harvey 60 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: sitting at the defense table. I was stunned at how 61 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: passive he seemed. That the aggressive, domineering Harvey suddenly was 62 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: receding in that courtroom. And as women would testify against him, 63 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: sometimes he would fall asleep. And I was just really 64 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: surprised by that, but also interested by that. Were you 65 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: freaked out when he looked at you sometimes in the courtroom? 66 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: I mean that book of his Well. Harvey actually, at 67 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: one point his best friend, doctor William Carreo, who we'd 68 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: been a Buffalo University Buffalo roommate of years before, came 69 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: to trial with Harvey many days and I went up 70 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: to interdew during a break in the court proceedings. I 71 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: went up to introduce myself to doctor Carreo, and I said, 72 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: I'm doing a book on Avery. Weisin could we talk? 73 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: He said, well, let's go in the car outside and talk. 74 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: And as soon as he said that, Harvey was seated 75 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: just inches away. He said, Bill, don't talk to him. 76 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: And Harvey doesn't like me. He didn't like the profile 77 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: I did in two thousand and two. In the end, though, 78 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: surprisingly Harvey and I had email exchanges from prisons where 79 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: he did answer some of my questions, not all of 80 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: my questions, but some of them. And I think he 81 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: did that just as a defensive mechanism. He knew I 82 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: was writing a biography of him and no one else 83 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: was doing one, and he wanted to try and protect himself. Well, 84 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: I didn't bring my stenographer here for this taking a walk, 85 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: and I don't want to destroy that story, obviously, because 86 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: that's a key element here. But do you want to 87 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that exchange that at least 88 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: occurred there right up to almost you publishing this book. Well, 89 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: I was very persistent in wanting to interview Harvey, and 90 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 1: I would be talking to his public relations person, Judah Ingelmayer, 91 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: very talented, and I thought a fairly straight shooter, as 92 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: these folks go and come. But I said I want 93 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: to interview Harvey, and he said, Harvey didn't want to talk, 94 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: And then finally he comes back. He said, Harvey will 95 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: grant you an interview if you agree to ask him 96 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: any negative things that he's not replied to already, you 97 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: will present to him so we will have an opportunity 98 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: to respond to it. I said, I would gladly do that, 99 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: but I want to be able to ask any questions 100 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: I want, and they said no, I said, Delbreker over. 101 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: So a week later I got another call from his 102 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: representative saying Harvey would agree to talk, but not tape. 103 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: I said, deal Breker no. A week later, Harvey comes 104 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: back again, because obviously he wanted to do and I 105 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: was in a stronger negotiating position. I thought. He said, 106 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: no transcript, no transcription of this. I said, deal Breker, no, 107 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: I need a tape and a transcript. And finally I said, 108 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: only ask the negative questions. I said no, I want 109 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: to be able to ask all my questions. Dealberg. After 110 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: about two months of negotiations, he finally relents and agrees 111 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: on my terms. I could ask any question I want, 112 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: I could tape it, and I can can't have a 113 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: transcribe late, you know, and we're going to He's not 114 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: allowed in prison to have internet. You can't be on 115 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: the internet, but you could be on the phone. So 116 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: I would do it on the phone, and the presumption 117 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: is I would have multiple phone entities, because he generally 118 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: only allowed about an hour for a phone call. And 119 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: I was driving into New York the next morning to 120 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: meet at his lawyer's office with Harvey on the phone 121 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: from Buffalo, from the prison of Buffalo and his LA lawyer. 122 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: He's got a trial coming up in Los Angeles in 123 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: the fall. His LA lawyer calls me. He says, miss A, 124 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: that I'm marked worksman. You don't know me. I'm Harvey's lawyer. 125 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: I cannot allow my client, on the eve of trial 126 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles to risk talking to you on the 127 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: record about you know, what he's going to be tried about. 128 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: And so that ended that. So we didn't have that interview. 129 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: And at that then I went back to his PR person. 130 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: I said, would Harvey answered email questions? And then he 131 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,359 Speaker 1: agreed to answer and some me but the big questions 132 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask, including this one, he didn't answer. 133 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask him, Harvey, when you put your 134 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,319 Speaker 1: head on a pillow at night after raping let's say, 135 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: Jessica Man, who was one of the women who tested 136 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: out against him at the criminal trial, after raping Jessica Man, 137 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: how did you explain to yourself what you had just done? 138 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: And I was I'm fascinated by what his answer would 139 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: have been. He didn't answer that question. I suspect his 140 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: answer would have been it was a fair trade. She 141 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: wanted something from me, a career in Hollywood. I was 142 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: willing to help her, but I wanted something from her. 143 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: She was a grown up, she knew what she was willingly. 144 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: It was consensual. She wanted to do it. And I 145 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: think that in his favored mind, that would be the 146 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: explanation I suspect. I think it's so fascinating how the 147 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: book digs into, you know, the darkness of Harvey, going 148 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,719 Speaker 1: back obviously to you know, the college years in Buffalo, 149 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: and even going back to that uh that byeline that 150 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: he shared with Corky uh Burger in the student newspaper 151 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: called Denny the Hustler. I mean, ken, after I read that, 152 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: I had to go take a shower. Well not only that, 153 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: but Corky. It was it was coke Byeline, by Corky 154 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: and Harvey, and Corky years later told the Buffalo newspapers 155 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: I didn't write a word of that. It was all Harvey. 156 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: But it gives you a premonition of what was what 157 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: was percolating in that fevered mind of Harvey. I mean, 158 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: were you surprised how far back is behavior span? Well, 159 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: what's actually surprised me in trying to analyze what made 160 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: Harvey the sexual predator he became. When I reported with 161 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: his childhood friends and I went back to junior high 162 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: school and high school, there was no evidence of him 163 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: abusing women, very little evans and dating women. Actually, when 164 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: he went to the University of Buffalo the first three 165 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: years before he dropped out at the end of his 166 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: junior year, I could find no evidence of him abusing women. 167 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: When Harvey's abuse began is when he had power and 168 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: fame as the head of a big, successful rock promotion company, 169 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: Harvey and Corky Presents, And that's when he first abused 170 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: these women. And as best I could detect, the first 171 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: woman he raped was Hope de Moore, who was an 172 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: assistant of his at Harvey and Corky Presents, who he 173 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: raped at a New York hotel. So did you ever 174 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: study psychology in your schooling, because it seems like you 175 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: might have. Well, I did, But I also spent a 176 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: fair amount of time talking to psychologists about rape and 177 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: about people like Harvey. They acknowledge that we're not talking 178 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: about Harvey Weinstein. He hasn't been a patient of ours. 179 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: We haven't studied him, but they helped describe what makes 180 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: a rapist, and why women more importantly in terms of 181 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: the trial, why women who were raped often keep in 182 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: touch with the person who raped them. Because the weakness 183 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: of the case against Harvey in the criminal trial in 184 00:11:54,400 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: New York was the six women who testified against him. 185 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: Four of them continued to have a relationship with Rvey 186 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: after he sexually abused them, in some cases even having 187 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 1: consensual sex, and two of them had consensual sex, but 188 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: were certainly keep in touch with him. Wanting to get 189 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: ahead in the movie business, and he was a potential 190 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: ticket for getting ahead, they thought so. The prosecution had 191 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: described why would women do that? And that was a 192 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: weakness they had to get over in order to convict Harvey. 193 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: And among the things they did, they on the stand, 194 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: they got the women to acknowledge why they continued to 195 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: keep in touch with Arvey, and they get various reasons 196 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: for this. I was in denial. I blamed myself. I 197 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: was afraid of Harvey and his power. They give all 198 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: sorts of reasons. But then they did something else. They 199 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: called to the stand doctor Barbers, who was an expert 200 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: on rape at Temple University in Pennsylvania, and she said 201 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: that one fact she cited and it just sticks in 202 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: your mind. Forty of the women in America who are 203 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: raped continue to have relations and conversations with the person 204 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: who rapes them, and which again helps explain and gives 205 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: a reason why these women kept in touch with Harvey 206 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: and allowed the jury to see them in a different light. 207 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: Rather than being ambitious, aggressive women who were just oldly 208 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: ambitious for their careers, as Harvey's defense was claiming, they 209 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: would allow the jury to see them as victims. I mean, 210 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: when you really, as you do in the book, go 211 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: up close and deep, year, do you ever feel sorry 212 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: for the messed up flaws that this guy that had 213 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: everything really exhibits. I don't feel sorry for Harvey, because 214 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: Harvey was guilty and deserves, I believe, to be convicted 215 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: and sentenced to jail. I often do think, since I'm 216 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: a human being and easy, even being as monstrous as 217 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: his behavior was, what it must be like for him 218 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: to go from the pinnacle of power as he had 219 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: from doing these amazing movies which he distributed or produced. 220 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: I mean, just think of the galaxy of movies on 221 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: my left foot, Crying Game, Sex Lives and videotape, Shakespeare 222 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: in Love, amazing array of movies that is also and 223 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: the talent to do those movies was real. And for 224 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: him to go from that pinnacle of power standing on 225 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: the Academy Awards stage as often as he did, to 226 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: suddenly eating baked beans in a prison, sitting in a wheelchair, 227 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: which he is with a stent in his heart and 228 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: blind in one eye and high cholesterol, severe diabetes, taking 229 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: twenty bills a day. How could you not think about 230 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: what's going through that man's mind and how painful it 231 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: must be for him. Even if he thinks, as he 232 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: does that he's a victim, he's still every day getting 233 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: up in a prison hospital in needing that starchy food. 234 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: You talked about Bob, his brother earlier. I mean, as 235 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: you know, we learn about Bob and the role Bob played. 236 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: I mean, Bob wasn't the nicest guy either, right Bob 237 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: in one of the things they both grew up in 238 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: a home. One of the things I discovered in the 239 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: reporting dominated by their mother, Miriam, And one of the 240 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: things Miriam did was yell all the time, particularly at Harvey. Harvey, 241 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: You're too fat, Harvey, stop beating that, Harvey, what are 242 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: you doing this? But she yells so much that the 243 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: friends Harvey and his fans who played poker every weekend 244 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: at a different home. His friends refused play poker at 245 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: Harvey's Hue. Why because Marror yelled too much. It made 246 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: them too uncomfortable. And Bob and Harvey, if you look 247 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: at their life in the movie business, they yelled all 248 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: the time. That was clearly a carryover from what Mirror 249 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: him normalized in their household. So Bob yelled as Harvey yelled, 250 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: and Bob could be an abusive boss. But Bob became 251 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: an alcoholic at some point and went into alcoholics anonymous 252 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: and therapy, and from that came out a somewhat different person, 253 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: much more sensitive, much more reflective, looking at his inner 254 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: self and trying to be which I think he became 255 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: a better human being, certainly a better human being than Harvey, 256 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: and never accused of the kind of behavior with women 257 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: that Harvey was. And in the end, he would constantly 258 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: press his brother, press Harvey, Harvey, you need treatment, You're 259 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: a sex addict. He knew Harvey cheated on his wife's 260 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: He says he didn't know, though I pressed them hard. 261 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: He says he didn't know that Harvey abused women sexually. 262 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: But in any case, Bob, as you watch Bob over 263 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: the years, as I did in this book, he begins 264 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 1: to change and became a better person. Not a perfect person, 265 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: and had his share of enemies as well, but a 266 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: better person. So you've had no contact since the book 267 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,959 Speaker 1: has come out from Harvey? Is that correct? Oh? Correct? 268 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: I had no contact outside of the email exchange. What happened. 269 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: I would send an email to his PR person who 270 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: then read it to Harvey on the phone. Harvey but 271 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: then dictate his response because he's not allowed to have 272 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: internet connections himself. But I've never talked to Harvey, and 273 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: all through the trolley wouldn't talk to me. He talked 274 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: to me, and I have taped interviews from my two 275 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: thousand and two profile in New York, about twelve hours 276 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: of tapes, and then I have the email exchanges that 277 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: he dictated from prison in response to my questions, and 278 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: obviously all his people talk to me. I mean I 279 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: did over two hundred interviews for the book, particularly Bob. 280 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: Bob was a particularly valuable source to me, particularly talking 281 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: about the mother, the father, growing up, the early years 282 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: of Merrimax, and why he stopped talking to his mother. 283 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: So what would you say to him? In closing, if 284 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: you would talk to him or have communication with him, 285 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: what would you say to him? Now, Harvey, tell me 286 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: you're sitting in prison. You're about to go on trial 287 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, a second trial. There's talk that you 288 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: may be tried also in London for a series of 289 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: sexual behavior misbehavior there what goes through your mind? But 290 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: how do you feel? How do you explain what you 291 00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 1: did to the world and to yourself? Those are some 292 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: of the questions. I mean, when I prepared to do 293 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: interviews with him, I spent many, many hours preparing just 294 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: pages and pages of questions that I would ask him. 295 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: I cited one before when he put his head on 296 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: the pillow over they say. But there are many others 297 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask, including about his mother Murria, whom 298 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: Bob answered. But I want to hear Bob Harvey's response 299 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: to that as well. But I'd be fascinated talking to all. 300 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: And as far as you know, he and Bob had 301 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: not communicated. No, they don't talk. They had Bob at 302 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: one point when he thought Harvey had COVID, there was 303 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: rumor in the press he had COVID actually did, by 304 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: the way, but Bob didn't know that. Bob reached out 305 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: through Bill Carreo, Harvey's best friend, and said, is my 306 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: brother okay, I'd like to talk to him, and Harvey 307 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: sent a message back to Carreo, who wrote to Bob, 308 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: and I print the text of that. He wrote, Harvey 309 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: wants to know why you want to talk to him, 310 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: And Bob's response to that was, I'm his brother. I 311 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: was concerned about his health, and he's treating me like 312 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: you know, a person wants to do an interview first 313 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: time when he's in the pinnacle of power, and he could. 314 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: My brother's not even being he said. He doesn't have 315 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: any ability to look inside himself to have express regret, 316 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: express guilt. One of the things when you when you study, 317 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: which I tried to do for this book, what makes 318 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: a sociopath? And the psychologists say there are three basic 319 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: ingredients to define a sociopath. One is narcissist. Harvey's a narcist. 320 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: Two is lack of empathy. If you watched Harvey listening 321 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: to the woman too TESTI fight against him a trial 322 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: and basically ignoring it, sometimes falling asleep. Clearly he lacked empathy, 323 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: and third is lack of guilt. Harvey has no guilty. 324 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: He thinks himself is a victim. Now, you could have 325 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: all three of those qualities and not the associate path, 326 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: but Harvey's behavior suggests that he was assist. The books 327 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: called Hollywood Ending Harvey Weinstein, and the Culture of Silence. 328 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: Ken o'letta, I'm very grateful that you were part of 329 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: the Taking a Walk podcast series and continued great work 330 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: as always, and thank you for taking the time. Thank you, Beth. 331 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk with Buzznight is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, 332 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.