WEBVTT - Concealed Carry and ICE: The Edge of the Second Amendment 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:09.080 Alzoone Media. Welcome back to It could Happen Here, a 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.160 podcast where Robert Evans is slightly adjusting the levels on 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:16.520 his microphone because I am in New Orleans traveling and 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:20.400 with my friend and city resident and former guest of 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:22.720 the pod, Carla carl. 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:23.960 Welcome to the show. 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.239 Thank you for having me. Robert. It's great to be back. 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:28.000 I mean, we've done a few episodes in the past 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:30.640 on different podcasts, and it's always I don't want to 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:32.040 say a treat, but it's good to work with you 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:34.080 because some of the topics, of course, are pretty rough. 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.080 Yeah, and you and I have talked, i think primarily 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:39.640 in our previous episodes about both like digital security and 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.919 then guns, Like we've talked about people getting into shooting. 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.519 We've talked about like kind of what's responsible and irresponsible 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.400 when it comes to training and firearms advice. And today 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.120 we're kind of starting by talking about guns in a 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:57.959 different context, which is the fact that specifically they are 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.560 often used as an excuse by a law enforcement like 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:03.840 the fear of the fear or the reality of them 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:05.880 in being armed, as an excuse for killing them. Right, 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.520 we can talk about the killing of Filando Castile in 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.280 July of twenty sixteen, who was a black man who 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.440 was stopped by the police and a legal license concealed 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.320 carry holder and was shot during that traffic stop because 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.640 the officer panicked. But the case that's right now on 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:23.600 people's minds is the case of Alex Pretty, who was 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.240 killed by Border patrol earlier this year. Was wearing a 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.319 gun during a confrontation, but he was just filming. They 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.119 stripped him of his weapon, and they shot and executed 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.520 him in a case that has actually drawn criticism from 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.160 gun rights organizations towards the Trump administration, which doesn't happen often. 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:42.319 But I think the kind of point you brought up 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.320 when you and I started talking about this was that 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:48.040 what happened to Pretty, you know, not only can you 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.240 go back to other cases where law enforcement have shot 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:52.680 people legally concealed carrying, as we talked about with Castile, 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.760 but this is not a thing that is the result 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.640 of the escalation of the Trump administration's use of bord 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.960 patrol and ice. This this is a long standing behavior 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:05.440 that border patrol agents have exercised and been exercising elsewhere 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.520 for years. Like what happened to Preddy is novel because 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:10.760 he was a white guy in the middle of Minneapolis. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:12.920 But it's not a novel because Border patrol shot and 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.280 killed somebody and then justified it by saying he had 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:15.640 a gun. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.680 Yeah, it's border patrol, and really by that extension of 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.320 all law enforcement in the US, because there's so many examples, 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:23.800 it's almost hard to draw out just one or two. 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:25.799 You can go for on forever for this, but there's 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:27.520 some real prominent ones that make a lot of sense. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.359 In fact, even here in New Orleans, right after Katrina, 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.720 there were a family that were crossing a bridge trying 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.080 to just recover some water and supplies, and a bunch 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.399 of law enforcement officers jumped into unmarked vehicles, ran over 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.560 on a bridge, jumped out, and with unauthorized guns, including Ak's, 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:45.240 unloaded on them, and it was called the Danziger Bridge shootings. 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.000 I have a video on the channel about it. And 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.760 this is where this gets relevant. They not only shot them, 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.000 they chased them down from a moving vehicle and killed 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:53.440 them in their back with a shotgun while he was 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.359 running away. But they used the pretense of them being 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.720 armed even though they were not, by dropping drop guns 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.000 and calling them ham sandwiches. So again, the pretest of 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.960 there were guns, therefore were allowed to kill them is 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:06.520 just an example of that, right there. 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.480 Yeah, and this is really interesting because, first off, you 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.440 get the gun rights people, or at least a chunk 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:14.160 of the conservative gun rights people, who will come out 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.920 whenever someone actually is carrying a gun. But the fact 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.040 that this happens so much more often, where the police 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.400 just kill someone and say because we thought they had 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.680 a gun, is also I mean, it's a human rights issue, 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.359 but it is a Second Amendment issue, right, You've got 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.520 this weird dichotomy. We're on the right the existence of 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.240 the second because it's often said that like, oh, the 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.640 presence of a gun, even though you have the Second 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.120 Amendment means the police can kill you. But the reality 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.640 is that the existence of guns in the country means 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.560 that the police have the ability to justify killing and 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.680 border patrol has the ability to justify killing someone for no. 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.960 Reason, which it really brings up a really interesting question because, 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:52.960 i mean, the Second Amendment is literally the second amendment 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:55.560 of the Bill of Rights, which is now right enshrined 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.600 directly in the Constitution. It's the first freedom of speech, 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:00.480 and the second one is the right to kill and 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.520 bare arms, and so if that is a constitutional right, 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:05.880 even in instances where you see like Alex Pretty who 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:09.760 is a legally licensed CCW holder, still can be killed 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.880 with essentially no justice being delivered for their actions. Raises 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.280 a very interesting question about how is a right a 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.320 right when they can kill you for the presence of 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.920 a gun, even when it's legally possessed and not even 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.520 being used in a offensive manner, like even if it's 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.120 just on you or they think there's one there, suddenly 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:27.080 they can kill you and nothing comes of it. And 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.000 that's the case with so many instances. I got a 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.680 few more here if you want, Like Daniel Shaver, this 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.360 is one in Masis. It's not border patrol, but it's 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:35.919 still law enforcement. It has the precedent of the problem. 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:38.920 Twenty sixteen, he was a Texas exterminator. He was traveling 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.040 through Arizona and he was up in his hotel room 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:42.960 and someone on the street saw him or thought they 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.160 saw him messing with a firearm. Turned out it was 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:47.320 like a pellet gun or something he used to shoot rats. 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:50.039 But they rolled up, they called him out of his 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.920 room and in a very horrific video of screaming at 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.440 him and giving very inconsistent commands, along with another gun 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.919 that was illegally modified or at least not authorized to 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:00.880 be modified, where they dust cover on the air fifteen 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.160 said you're fucked on it. They unloaded on him while 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:04.800 he was crawling on his hands and knees, begging for 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.039 his life, literally begging for his life in the video, 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:09.599 and again really nothing came of it. In fact, the 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.400 officer that shot him ended up getting back on the 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:15.200 force just long enough to give him essentially a life 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:17.680 pension for the trauma he received for killing the man. 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.560 So the presence or the perceived presence of a firearm 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:23.800 justified them killing him while he was crawling on his 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:24.440 hands and knees. 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.280 You know, we've talked about the warrior cop ethos and 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:30.719 guys like Colonel Grossman who have helped to inculcate this 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.520 idea in law enforcement that you are in like dire 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.880 threat of immediate death every second of every day, as 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.039 like the sworn law enforcement officer, and thus you have 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.320 to react like this, right like, you have to react 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.080 immediately with lethal force the instant someone like reaches into 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.400 a pocket or I can't tell you how many times 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:50.840 it protests. I can remember one really clear time from 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:52.840 twenty twenty where. 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:53.800 I was with a group of people. 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.640 They were promising to arrest all of us, and I 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.120 was kind of talking to the police officer basically being like, 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.880 looker the mayor's most recent orders, like we are allowed 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:02.400 to be out here. 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:04.039 Yeah, Anyway, it was a whole thing. 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:06.640 But one of the protesters, who is just kind of 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.320 standing behind me, very nervous, like, reached into his pocket. 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:10.640 I don't know what it was to get a phone, 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:12.960 and all of the officers tend stuff, and I had 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.680 to be like, don't fucking go, like, keep your hands visible, man, 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:18.839 Like we're standing in front of a bunch of and 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.600 you shouldn't have to do that, right, putting your hands 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:23.880 in your pocket shouldn't be a justification for a man 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.440 pulling a gun and blowing you away with the authority 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.560 of the state behind him. But the reality of this 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:32.480 situation is that like, whenever I am talking to police officers, 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:33.679 I keep my hands in front. 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:34.680 Of me and fucking visible. 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:35.600 Yeah. 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.200 It produced a situation in which regular American citizens or 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.440 we'll get into this too. The tahona Otum Reservation members, 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:44.840 Indian members members of the tribe. You have to be 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.160 as a civilian trained how to interact with these very 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:49.200 dangerous people who have been given. 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:50.880 An ideology of like killology. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.719 You mentioned Lieutenant Colonel Grossman, who actually never shot on 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.200 anyone himself, but was one of the sea crystals of 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.320 this training mentality in which he espoused don't be afraid 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.080 to shoot. Only thing that's going to happen is you 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.040 might get sued, but don't worry about getting sued. It 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:04.839 just gives you a little break and some time off 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:06.960 the force until you get it cleared. He's on video 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.280 saying this stuff, and that mentality so imbued into all 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.600 of the law enforcement agencies now presents a problem where 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.840 the legal right of having a firearm is I'd say 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.000 very questionable that it's a right when they have all 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.680 authorization to kill you for the thought or presence of 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.800 a gun. And it shouldn't be civilians, just regular people 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:27.400 that have to be trained how to deal with these 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.120 dangerous agents of the state, because they're the ones that 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.760 are indoctrinated into this fear mindset when we're prayed to 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:35.880 at this point because they can kill you and nothing 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:36.720 seems to come of it. 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.560 I think the thing when we were chatting about this 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:41.920 kind of behind the scenes that you brought up that 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.760 was really interesting to me to emphasize was the degree 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.080 to which this is not a training problem, Right, this 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.640 is not a lack of training problem. You hear a 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:51.880 lot on the kind of more moderate democrat side of 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.320 things about how we need to be retraining these agents, 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.400 and that like the murder of Renee Good, the murder 0:07:57.400 --> 0:07:59.200 of Alex Pretty is the result of like bad training 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.640 behalf of Border per control, and it's kind of part 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.120 of this whole rogue agency thing you get with Border 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.120 Patrol and ice that like because of the Trump administration 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.440 and how they've flooded it with bad recruits and how 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.240 they're not getting properly trained. That's why things have been 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.080 so deadly. And when you look at the history of 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:19.640 how Border Patrol has worked on things like the Tahanamodo Reservation, 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.280 what you see is a whole bunch of cases that 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.040 sound a lot like what happened to Rena Good and 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:28.160 Alex Petty. They're just not happening to white people in Minneapolis, right. 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:29.120 Yeah. 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:30.600 I think that's something that a lot of people who 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.600 haven't had the experience of living near the border, because 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:35.800 I also spend a lot of my life in Arizona 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.079 near Tucson, and therefore the tahuna Otum reservations right there, 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.720 and therefore have some insight into the things that go 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.120 on right there near the border. And this is not new. 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:46.800 The thing that's new is that it's being extended across 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.760 the country and now into internal spaces. But the policies 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:51.880 and the way the Border Patrol and Ice have acted 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.600 is by no means a new standard. For example, not 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.439 only with the firearms, but their instances at least two instances, 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.439 if not more, in which there's verified video of Border 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:05.360 patrol agents intentionally swerving their vehicles to hit tribal members. 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.120 It's on footage, not only car footage, but footage of 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.960 the cell phone being struck. One instance at Leach, they 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.319 were killed. Another instance they were hurt, and with that footage, 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.040 even though it very clearly the car swerved to hit them, 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.240 nothing came of it. So it's hard to not see 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:21.200 that there's something going on here. I don't think this 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:22.920 is a train anything. I don't think they're training them 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.080 to run over people. But there's some cultural maliciousness that's 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:29.600 imbued into some of this that's hard to ignore. Another 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.520 example of that was in twenty twenty three there was 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.600 a TOO member, Raymond Mattia, that he was called for 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.840 supposedly there was gunfire herd, and so border patrol shows 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.400 up and he's in front of his house and he 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:43.200 reached for his cell phone in his pocket much like 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.520 you just described. Again, Wow, there's a recurring theme here. 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:49.840 And he was shot nine times, thirty eight rounds fired killed. 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.040 He had no gun on him, he was just a 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.400 TOO member, and therefore it didn't really make any press. 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:59.480 Again, you see, this is a qualified immunity problem, right, 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.520 and it go back to that. And there's been some 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.880 talk of, like if you're going with the reforming ice 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.800 rather than the abolishing thing, which is you know, certainly 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.280 something a lot of Democrats talk about, Like I've heard 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:13.240 some discussion of like, well, maybe removing qualified immunity. 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:14.640 At least for border patrol and ICE. 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:17.640 And it's so much bigger of a problem than that, 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.920 Like I certainly will I will accept any reductions in 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.679 qualified immunity for law enforcement. 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.120 Because that's where a lot of this starts. 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:30.480 But even without that, if these go to court, if 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.839 the officer in that specific shooting had gone to court 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.760 for that specific shooting. I think there's a very good, 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.320 if not overwhelmingly likely chance that he would have just 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.199 been able to argue as in fear of my life. Right, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.920 everyone knows how dangerous police officers' jobs are. Of course, 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.000 you know, if you reach into a bocket around them, 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.000 you're signing your own death warrant. And some of my 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.839 problem with this is the degree to which Americans, and 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.760 maybe this is starting to shift, but things are as 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:55.440 bad as they are because for a very long time, 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.520 Americans were willing to go along with the idea that 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.640 police officers lie were so dangerous and their jobs were 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.920 so important that almost any violence they meet out is 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.120 justified by the danger that they exist in. And I 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.320 want to talk more about that with you, but first 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:33.240 here's some ads. 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:25.640 And we're back, Karl. 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:27.160 I'm gonna hand back to Mike to you if we're 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:28.280 going to continue ourtist cut. 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:30.720 That's the challenge that I see with all these and 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:32.800 these are just like again, a handful of examples of 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:34.960 which there are so many you can't even enumerate them all. 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.320 I mentioned the Danziger Bridge shootings, in which two men 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.040 were killed and there was really no justice came for that, 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.640 although there was long trials and almost almost someone got 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.839 in trouble, but not really. They all eventually got out 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.200 with very little justice. Daniel Shaver was killed in Mesa. 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.920 That guy got pension, Borlando Castile, nothing really came of that. 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.360 Paul O Reims the guy hit by the Border patrol 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.280 sev nothing came of that. Another example, while this was 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.160 a protester to Guita in twenty twenty three, protesting cop 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.800 City was unloaded on in his tent where they said 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:08.280 he had a firearm. Again another similar example fourteen times 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:11.760 and was killed in the process. Hey everybody, Carli here 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.280 and an important update to the podcast. Once it was released, 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.000 we quickly realized that there was a mistake embedded in 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.080 it and it really kind of lies on me. We 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.760 recorded this today after Marti gram That's no excuse. We 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:24.880 were both a little tired. But at the same time 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.320 we had a conversation in which we discussed we just 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.560 remove this from the podcast entirely, just snip it out, 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:34.959 and both of us came to the same conclusion that 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.600 it was too important to leave Tortuguita's story in the podcast, 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.880 because the reality is they're not talked about as much 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.640 as they should be, and what happened to Tortegito matters 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.520 very much and it should be kept in the public consciousness, 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.080 especially since the bodycam footage has not been released. But 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.880 in this I mistakenly used the pronoun he and him, 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.800 and Robert followed suit, just because we were kind of 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.040 recording together in that time and space, and this was 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:05.160 recorded very live and raw and real. But tortu Ghita, 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.959 the queer indigenous activists that gave their life fighting against 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:14.080 Cop City, went by they them. So please accept my 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.440 apology and our apology for this mistake in the podcast. 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:19.720 But again we wanted to leave it in because it 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.960 was too important and too significant to tell Torteguito's story 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:23.600 than it. 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.440 Was to snip it out due to this mistake. 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:30.400 So hopefully you'll understand and accept this disclaimer and apology 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.719 for this mistake and realized that was of course not intentional. 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:34.520 Thank you. 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:39.199 There was a bunch of actual bodycam footage that's never 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.360 been released to the public. But at the same time, 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.959 the autopsy of him showed that his hands were up 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:45.760 in the position he was in when he got hit 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.199 with those multiple fourteen rounds, but we don't even get 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.679 to see the bodycam footage. And there was audio where 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:52.840 the cops at least implied that one of the cops 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:54.640 shot one of the other cops and that's what instigated 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:55.080 the shooting. 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:57.720 It's the kind of thing that like, we don't know 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.760 what happened in the shoot of Tortuguhito, right We simply 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:03.800 don't know, in part because they haven't released a lot 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:08.440 of the information. And right now, the burden of proof 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.960 is on Tortighita in this case, or you know, people 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.560 who think he was unjustly killed, to prove that he 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.160 didn't shoot the officer, as opposed to where I would 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:20.880 argue the burden of proof should be, which is on 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.840 the agents of the state. He shot somebody, right, Like, 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:25.480 if you were going to say this kid pulled a 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.240 gun and fired on you, I want the proof and 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:29.960 it's on you to give me the proof. And if 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.800 you the police do not prove beyond a shadow of 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:35.400 a doubt that you were in fear for your life 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.400 in being attacked when you use deadly force, my assumption 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:40.000 is going to be that you murdered a guy. 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:41.200 And I think that's. 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.360 How everyone should feel, right, Like that should be how 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.000 we treat police violence in any society, not this the 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.240 United States. I mean, if you're listening to this in 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.000 the UK or Germany and you're a reasonable person, I 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.360 would think that your attitude should be Yes. If a 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:59.400 Bobby or whatever the Germans call their police kills somebody, 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:01.560 he should should have to prove that he or she 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.680 should have to prove that they were an immediate fear 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.600 of their life, which is not so different from anybody else, right, 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:08.520 I can think of I can think of one police 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:10.600 shooting that I saw a video of spreading on Twitter, 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:12.840 where like a guy was literally like sprinting around in 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.800 traffic with a gun, like pointing it at people in 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.520 traffic and got shot and killed by an officer. And 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.320 I was like, look, if I'd had a gun and 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:21.840 felt like I could take the shot, I might have 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.320 shot that guy too, because he was parjacking people at 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.600 gunpoint and pointing a firearm. 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:28.320 And they're like, yeah, that's the. 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:29.680 Case in which maybe you have to shoot a guy 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.400 because like he could kill someone at any second, right, 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:34.880 And I'm not going to judge a police officer for 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.480 shooting in that instance, but I wouldn't judge a civilian either. 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:40.400 I don't have a different standard for them. If you 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.360 are a cop or a civilian and somebody shoots at you, 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.600 you have the right to defend yourself, right, but you 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:48.960 also should expect to prove that they were. 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:49.760 Trying to hurt you. 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:52.800 This is the challenge I have with all of this is, 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.280 like you said, in any instance that's a self defense shooting, 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.280 And in this and in many instances, law enforcement are 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:00.000 put in a situation where they're not necessarily even defending themselves, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.960 but defending the community or others, and therefore they have justification. 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:04.960 I'm not to say here to say that every law 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:06.920 enforcement shooting is not justified. 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:07.800 Many of them are. 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.320 But in the instances where there are questionable circumstances, of 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.080 which many we've just enumerated here, even instances in which 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.080 they have body cams on which are supposed to be 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.360 would validate their actions, but they won't release it to 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.880 the public to see it. It draws a very significant 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.640 question of the validity of these events and what they're 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:26.320 doing and why there I would say no better way 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.880 to say than covering something up. In fact, going back 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:31.000 to Lieutenant Colonel Grossman. There's a video of him talking 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.640 about law enforcement, which of course extends to ice and 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.160 border patrol, as the samurai of the land. And you know, 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:38.960 that reference isn't really a good one because when you 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.040 know what the samurai are, that's a disturbing statement. But 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.160 in his mind, he's making this point that they have 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.400 these tools that are for life and death and the 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.600 right to essentially kill, and referring to them as samurai. 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.880 And I think that mindset is sadly very much permeating 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:53.600 the law enforcement agencies of this country. 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:56.800 Yes, it's the myths of the warrior cop. 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:01.400 And I think one of my frustrats here stems from 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.080 just as someone like you, I carry a firearm regularly, 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:05.560 and I think a lot about what would happen if 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.359 I had to use it. And I think about not 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.480 just the practicality of like, okay, am I trained properly 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.760 to use this thing competently, you know, but what would 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.320 the order of operations need to be if somebody tries 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.000 to kill me and I successfully kill or injure them 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:21.360 with a firearm, Well, I'm going to need to call 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.080 the police immediately. I'm going to need to contact a 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:28.360 lawyer immediately, I'm going to hope that there are eyewitnesses there. 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.199 I'm going to hope and seek to provide as much 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.360 evidence that I possibly can that I had no other 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.120 choice to do what I was going to do. Right, 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.880 any civilian carrying a firearm responsibly thinks about the same 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.280 things about like if I am in a shooting. First off, 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.280 there's the question of I need to defend myself, But 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.240 then there's immediately the question if I need to defend 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.119 myself in court. And police don't have that second part, 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:51.040 not really, not in a way that matters. 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.080 And this, to me is why the Alex Pretty situation, 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.560