1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: Alzoone Media. Welcome back to It could Happen Here, a 2 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: podcast where Robert Evans is slightly adjusting the levels on 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: his microphone because I am in New Orleans traveling and 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: with my friend and city resident and former guest of 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: the pod, Carla carl. 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. Robert. It's great to be back. 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 4: I mean, we've done a few episodes in the past 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 4: on different podcasts, and it's always I don't want to 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 4: say a treat, but it's good to work with you 11 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 4: because some of the topics, of course, are pretty rough. 12 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you and I have talked, i think primarily 13 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: in our previous episodes about both like digital security and 14 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: then guns, Like we've talked about people getting into shooting. 15 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: We've talked about like kind of what's responsible and irresponsible 16 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: when it comes to training and firearms advice. And today 17 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: we're kind of starting by talking about guns in a 18 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 1: different context, which is the fact that specifically they are 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: often used as an excuse by a law enforcement like 20 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: the fear of the fear or the reality of them 21 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: in being armed, as an excuse for killing them. Right, 22 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: we can talk about the killing of Filando Castile in 23 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: July of twenty sixteen, who was a black man who 24 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: was stopped by the police and a legal license concealed 25 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: carry holder and was shot during that traffic stop because 26 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: the officer panicked. But the case that's right now on 27 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: people's minds is the case of Alex Pretty, who was 28 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: killed by Border patrol earlier this year. Was wearing a 29 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: gun during a confrontation, but he was just filming. They 30 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: stripped him of his weapon, and they shot and executed 31 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: him in a case that has actually drawn criticism from 32 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: gun rights organizations towards the Trump administration, which doesn't happen often. 33 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: But I think the kind of point you brought up 34 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: when you and I started talking about this was that 35 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: what happened to Pretty, you know, not only can you 36 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: go back to other cases where law enforcement have shot 37 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: people legally concealed carrying, as we talked about with Castile, 38 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: but this is not a thing that is the result 39 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: of the escalation of the Trump administration's use of bord 40 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: patrol and ice. This this is a long standing behavior 41 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: that border patrol agents have exercised and been exercising elsewhere 42 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: for years. Like what happened to Preddy is novel because 43 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: he was a white guy in the middle of Minneapolis. 44 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: But it's not a novel because Border patrol shot and 45 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: killed somebody and then justified it by saying he had 46 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: a gun. 47 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's border patrol, and really by that extension of 48 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 4: all law enforcement in the US, because there's so many examples, 49 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 4: it's almost hard to draw out just one or two. 50 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 4: You can go for on forever for this, but there's 51 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 4: some real prominent ones that make a lot of sense. 52 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 4: In fact, even here in New Orleans, right after Katrina, 53 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 4: there were a family that were crossing a bridge trying 54 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 4: to just recover some water and supplies, and a bunch 55 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,399 Speaker 4: of law enforcement officers jumped into unmarked vehicles, ran over 56 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 4: on a bridge, jumped out, and with unauthorized guns, including Ak's, 57 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 4: unloaded on them, and it was called the Danziger Bridge shootings. 58 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 4: I have a video on the channel about it. And 59 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 4: this is where this gets relevant. They not only shot them, 60 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 4: they chased them down from a moving vehicle and killed 61 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 4: them in their back with a shotgun while he was 62 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 4: running away. But they used the pretense of them being 63 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 4: armed even though they were not, by dropping drop guns 64 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 4: and calling them ham sandwiches. So again, the pretest of 65 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 4: there were guns, therefore were allowed to kill them is 66 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 4: just an example of that, right there. 67 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is really interesting because, first off, you 68 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: get the gun rights people, or at least a chunk 69 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: of the conservative gun rights people, who will come out 70 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: whenever someone actually is carrying a gun. But the fact 71 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: that this happens so much more often, where the police 72 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: just kill someone and say because we thought they had 73 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: a gun, is also I mean, it's a human rights issue, 74 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: but it is a Second Amendment issue, right, You've got 75 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: this weird dichotomy. We're on the right the existence of 76 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: the second because it's often said that like, oh, the 77 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: presence of a gun, even though you have the Second 78 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: Amendment means the police can kill you. But the reality 79 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: is that the existence of guns in the country means 80 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: that the police have the ability to justify killing and 81 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: border patrol has the ability to justify killing someone for no. 82 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 4: Reason, which it really brings up a really interesting question because, 83 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 4: i mean, the Second Amendment is literally the second amendment 84 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 4: of the Bill of Rights, which is now right enshrined 85 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 4: directly in the Constitution. It's the first freedom of speech, 86 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 4: and the second one is the right to kill and 87 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 4: bare arms, and so if that is a constitutional right, 88 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 4: even in instances where you see like Alex Pretty who 89 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 4: is a legally licensed CCW holder, still can be killed 90 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 4: with essentially no justice being delivered for their actions. Raises 91 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 4: a very interesting question about how is a right a 92 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 4: right when they can kill you for the presence of 93 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 4: a gun, even when it's legally possessed and not even 94 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 4: being used in a offensive manner, like even if it's 95 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 4: just on you or they think there's one there, suddenly 96 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 4: they can kill you and nothing comes of it. And 97 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 4: that's the case with so many instances. I got a 98 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 4: few more here if you want, Like Daniel Shaver, this 99 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 4: is one in Masis. It's not border patrol, but it's 100 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 4: still law enforcement. It has the precedent of the problem. 101 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 4: Twenty sixteen, he was a Texas exterminator. He was traveling 102 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 4: through Arizona and he was up in his hotel room 103 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 4: and someone on the street saw him or thought they 104 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 4: saw him messing with a firearm. Turned out it was 105 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 4: like a pellet gun or something he used to shoot rats. 106 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 4: But they rolled up, they called him out of his 107 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 4: room and in a very horrific video of screaming at 108 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 4: him and giving very inconsistent commands, along with another gun 109 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 4: that was illegally modified or at least not authorized to 110 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 4: be modified, where they dust cover on the air fifteen 111 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 4: said you're fucked on it. They unloaded on him while 112 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 4: he was crawling on his hands and knees, begging for 113 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 4: his life, literally begging for his life in the video, 114 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 4: and again really nothing came of it. In fact, the 115 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 4: officer that shot him ended up getting back on the 116 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 4: force just long enough to give him essentially a life 117 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 4: pension for the trauma he received for killing the man. 118 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 4: So the presence or the perceived presence of a firearm 119 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 4: justified them killing him while he was crawling on his 120 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 4: hands and knees. 121 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about the warrior cop ethos and 122 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: guys like Colonel Grossman who have helped to inculcate this 123 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: idea in law enforcement that you are in like dire 124 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: threat of immediate death every second of every day, as 125 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: like the sworn law enforcement officer, and thus you have 126 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: to react like this, right like, you have to react 127 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: immediately with lethal force the instant someone like reaches into 128 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: a pocket or I can't tell you how many times 129 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: it protests. I can remember one really clear time from 130 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: twenty twenty where. 131 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: I was with a group of people. 132 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: They were promising to arrest all of us, and I 133 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: was kind of talking to the police officer basically being like, 134 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: looker the mayor's most recent orders, like we are allowed 135 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: to be out here. 136 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, Anyway, it was a whole thing. 137 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: But one of the protesters, who is just kind of 138 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: standing behind me, very nervous, like, reached into his pocket. 139 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what it was to get a phone, 140 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: and all of the officers tend stuff, and I had 141 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: to be like, don't fucking go, like, keep your hands visible, man, 142 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: Like we're standing in front of a bunch of and 143 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to do that, right, putting your hands 144 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: in your pocket shouldn't be a justification for a man 145 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: pulling a gun and blowing you away with the authority 146 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: of the state behind him. But the reality of this 147 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: situation is that like, whenever I am talking to police officers, 148 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 1: I keep my hands in front. 149 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: Of me and fucking visible. 150 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 151 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 4: It produced a situation in which regular American citizens or 152 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 4: we'll get into this too. The tahona Otum Reservation members, 153 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 4: Indian members members of the tribe. You have to be 154 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 4: as a civilian trained how to interact with these very 155 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 4: dangerous people who have been given. 156 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: An ideology of like killology. 157 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 4: You mentioned Lieutenant Colonel Grossman, who actually never shot on 158 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 4: anyone himself, but was one of the sea crystals of 159 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 4: this training mentality in which he espoused don't be afraid 160 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 4: to shoot. Only thing that's going to happen is you 161 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 4: might get sued, but don't worry about getting sued. It 162 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 4: just gives you a little break and some time off 163 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 4: the force until you get it cleared. He's on video 164 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 4: saying this stuff, and that mentality so imbued into all 165 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 4: of the law enforcement agencies now presents a problem where 166 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 4: the legal right of having a firearm is I'd say 167 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 4: very questionable that it's a right when they have all 168 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 4: authorization to kill you for the thought or presence of 169 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 4: a gun. And it shouldn't be civilians, just regular people 170 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 4: that have to be trained how to deal with these 171 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 4: dangerous agents of the state, because they're the ones that 172 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 4: are indoctrinated into this fear mindset when we're prayed to 173 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 4: at this point because they can kill you and nothing 174 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 4: seems to come of it. 175 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: I think the thing when we were chatting about this 176 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: kind of behind the scenes that you brought up that 177 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: was really interesting to me to emphasize was the degree 178 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: to which this is not a training problem, Right, this 179 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: is not a lack of training problem. You hear a 180 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: lot on the kind of more moderate democrat side of 181 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: things about how we need to be retraining these agents, 182 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: and that like the murder of Renee Good, the murder 183 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: of Alex Pretty is the result of like bad training 184 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: behalf of Border per control, and it's kind of part 185 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: of this whole rogue agency thing you get with Border 186 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: Patrol and ice that like because of the Trump administration 187 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: and how they've flooded it with bad recruits and how 188 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: they're not getting properly trained. That's why things have been 189 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: so deadly. And when you look at the history of 190 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: how Border Patrol has worked on things like the Tahanamodo Reservation, 191 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: what you see is a whole bunch of cases that 192 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: sound a lot like what happened to Rena Good and 193 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: Alex Petty. They're just not happening to white people in Minneapolis, right. 194 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 195 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 4: I think that's something that a lot of people who 196 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 4: haven't had the experience of living near the border, because 197 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 4: I also spend a lot of my life in Arizona 198 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 4: near Tucson, and therefore the tahuna Otum reservations right there, 199 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 4: and therefore have some insight into the things that go 200 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 4: on right there near the border. And this is not new. 201 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 4: The thing that's new is that it's being extended across 202 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 4: the country and now into internal spaces. But the policies 203 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 4: and the way the Border Patrol and Ice have acted 204 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 4: is by no means a new standard. For example, not 205 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 4: only with the firearms, but their instances at least two instances, 206 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 4: if not more, in which there's verified video of Border 207 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 4: patrol agents intentionally swerving their vehicles to hit tribal members. 208 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 4: It's on footage, not only car footage, but footage of 209 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 4: the cell phone being struck. One instance at Leach, they 210 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 4: were killed. Another instance they were hurt, and with that footage, 211 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 4: even though it very clearly the car swerved to hit them, 212 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 4: nothing came of it. So it's hard to not see 213 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 4: that there's something going on here. I don't think this 214 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 4: is a train anything. I don't think they're training them 215 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 4: to run over people. But there's some cultural maliciousness that's 216 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 4: imbued into some of this that's hard to ignore. Another 217 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 4: example of that was in twenty twenty three there was 218 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 4: a TOO member, Raymond Mattia, that he was called for 219 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 4: supposedly there was gunfire herd, and so border patrol shows 220 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 4: up and he's in front of his house and he 221 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 4: reached for his cell phone in his pocket much like 222 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 4: you just described. Again, Wow, there's a recurring theme here. 223 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 4: And he was shot nine times, thirty eight rounds fired killed. 224 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 4: He had no gun on him, he was just a 225 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 4: TOO member, and therefore it didn't really make any press. 226 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: Again, you see, this is a qualified immunity problem, right, 227 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: and it go back to that. And there's been some 228 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: talk of, like if you're going with the reforming ice 229 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: rather than the abolishing thing, which is you know, certainly 230 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: something a lot of Democrats talk about, Like I've heard 231 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: some discussion of like, well, maybe removing qualified immunity. 232 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: At least for border patrol and ICE. 233 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: And it's so much bigger of a problem than that, 234 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: Like I certainly will I will accept any reductions in 235 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: qualified immunity for law enforcement. 236 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 2: Because that's where a lot of this starts. 237 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: But even without that, if these go to court, if 238 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 1: the officer in that specific shooting had gone to court 239 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: for that specific shooting. I think there's a very good, 240 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: if not overwhelmingly likely chance that he would have just 241 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: been able to argue as in fear of my life. Right, 242 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: everyone knows how dangerous police officers' jobs are. Of course, 243 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, if you reach into a bocket around them, 244 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: you're signing your own death warrant. And some of my 245 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 1: problem with this is the degree to which Americans, and 246 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: maybe this is starting to shift, but things are as 247 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: bad as they are because for a very long time, 248 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: Americans were willing to go along with the idea that 249 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: police officers lie were so dangerous and their jobs were 250 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: so important that almost any violence they meet out is 251 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: justified by the danger that they exist in. And I 252 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: want to talk more about that with you, but first 253 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: here's some ads. 254 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: And we're back, Karl. 255 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna hand back to Mike to you if we're 256 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: going to continue ourtist cut. 257 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 4: That's the challenge that I see with all these and 258 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 4: these are just like again, a handful of examples of 259 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 4: which there are so many you can't even enumerate them all. 260 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 4: I mentioned the Danziger Bridge shootings, in which two men 261 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 4: were killed and there was really no justice came for that, 262 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 4: although there was long trials and almost almost someone got 263 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 4: in trouble, but not really. They all eventually got out 264 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 4: with very little justice. Daniel Shaver was killed in Mesa. 265 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 4: That guy got pension, Borlando Castile, nothing really came of that. 266 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 4: Paul O Reims the guy hit by the Border patrol 267 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 4: sev nothing came of that. Another example, while this was 268 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 4: a protester to Guita in twenty twenty three, protesting cop 269 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 4: City was unloaded on in his tent where they said 270 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 4: he had a firearm. Again another similar example fourteen times 271 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 4: and was killed in the process. Hey everybody, Carli here 272 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 4: and an important update to the podcast. Once it was released, 273 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 4: we quickly realized that there was a mistake embedded in 274 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 4: it and it really kind of lies on me. We 275 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 4: recorded this today after Marti gram That's no excuse. We 276 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 4: were both a little tired. But at the same time 277 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 4: we had a conversation in which we discussed we just 278 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 4: remove this from the podcast entirely, just snip it out, 279 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 4: and both of us came to the same conclusion that 280 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 4: it was too important to leave Tortuguita's story in the podcast, 281 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 4: because the reality is they're not talked about as much 282 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 4: as they should be, and what happened to Tortegito matters 283 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 4: very much and it should be kept in the public consciousness, 284 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 4: especially since the bodycam footage has not been released. But 285 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 4: in this I mistakenly used the pronoun he and him, 286 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 4: and Robert followed suit, just because we were kind of 287 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 4: recording together in that time and space, and this was 288 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 4: recorded very live and raw and real. But tortu Ghita, 289 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 4: the queer indigenous activists that gave their life fighting against 290 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 4: Cop City, went by they them. So please accept my 291 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 4: apology and our apology for this mistake in the podcast. 292 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 4: But again we wanted to leave it in because it 293 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 4: was too important and too significant to tell Torteguito's story 294 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 4: than it. 295 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 2: Was to snip it out due to this mistake. 296 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 4: So hopefully you'll understand and accept this disclaimer and apology 297 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 4: for this mistake and realized that was of course not intentional. 298 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 3: Thank you. 299 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 4: There was a bunch of actual bodycam footage that's never 300 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 4: been released to the public. But at the same time, 301 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 4: the autopsy of him showed that his hands were up 302 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 4: in the position he was in when he got hit 303 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 4: with those multiple fourteen rounds, but we don't even get 304 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 4: to see the bodycam footage. And there was audio where 305 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 4: the cops at least implied that one of the cops 306 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 4: shot one of the other cops and that's what instigated 307 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 4: the shooting. 308 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing that like, we don't know 309 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: what happened in the shoot of Tortuguhito, right We simply 310 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: don't know, in part because they haven't released a lot 311 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: of the information. And right now, the burden of proof 312 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: is on Tortighita in this case, or you know, people 313 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: who think he was unjustly killed, to prove that he 314 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: didn't shoot the officer, as opposed to where I would 315 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: argue the burden of proof should be, which is on 316 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: the agents of the state. He shot somebody, right, Like, 317 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: if you were going to say this kid pulled a 318 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: gun and fired on you, I want the proof and 319 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: it's on you to give me the proof. And if 320 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: you the police do not prove beyond a shadow of 321 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: a doubt that you were in fear for your life 322 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: in being attacked when you use deadly force, my assumption 323 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: is going to be that you murdered a guy. 324 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: And I think that's. 325 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: How everyone should feel, right, Like that should be how 326 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: we treat police violence in any society, not this the 327 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: United States. I mean, if you're listening to this in 328 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: the UK or Germany and you're a reasonable person, I 329 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: would think that your attitude should be Yes. If a 330 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: Bobby or whatever the Germans call their police kills somebody, 331 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: he should should have to prove that he or she 332 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: should have to prove that they were an immediate fear 333 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: of their life, which is not so different from anybody else, right, 334 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: I can think of I can think of one police 335 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: shooting that I saw a video of spreading on Twitter, 336 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: where like a guy was literally like sprinting around in 337 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: traffic with a gun, like pointing it at people in 338 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: traffic and got shot and killed by an officer. And 339 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: I was like, look, if I'd had a gun and 340 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: felt like I could take the shot, I might have 341 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: shot that guy too, because he was parjacking people at 342 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: gunpoint and pointing a firearm. 343 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 2: And they're like, yeah, that's the. 344 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: Case in which maybe you have to shoot a guy 345 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: because like he could kill someone at any second, right, 346 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to judge a police officer for 347 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: shooting in that instance, but I wouldn't judge a civilian either. 348 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: I don't have a different standard for them. If you 349 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: are a cop or a civilian and somebody shoots at you, 350 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: you have the right to defend yourself, right, but you 351 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: also should expect to prove that they were. 352 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: Trying to hurt you. 353 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 4: This is the challenge I have with all of this is, 354 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 4: like you said, in any instance that's a self defense shooting, 355 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 4: And in this and in many instances, law enforcement are 356 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 4: put in a situation where they're not necessarily even defending themselves, 357 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 4: but defending the community or others, and therefore they have justification. 358 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 4: I'm not to say here to say that every law 359 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 4: enforcement shooting is not justified. 360 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: Many of them are. 361 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 4: But in the instances where there are questionable circumstances, of 362 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 4: which many we've just enumerated here, even instances in which 363 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 4: they have body cams on which are supposed to be 364 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 4: would validate their actions, but they won't release it to 365 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 4: the public to see it. It draws a very significant 366 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 4: question of the validity of these events and what they're 367 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 4: doing and why there I would say no better way 368 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 4: to say than covering something up. In fact, going back 369 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 4: to Lieutenant Colonel Grossman. There's a video of him talking 370 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 4: about law enforcement, which of course extends to ice and 371 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 4: border patrol, as the samurai of the land. And you know, 372 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 4: that reference isn't really a good one because when you 373 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 4: know what the samurai are, that's a disturbing statement. But 374 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 4: in his mind, he's making this point that they have 375 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 4: these tools that are for life and death and the 376 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 4: right to essentially kill, and referring to them as samurai. 377 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 4: And I think that mindset is sadly very much permeating 378 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 4: the law enforcement agencies of this country. 379 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: Yes, it's the myths of the warrior cop. 380 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: And I think one of my frustrats here stems from 381 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: just as someone like you, I carry a firearm regularly, 382 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: and I think a lot about what would happen if 383 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: I had to use it. And I think about not 384 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: just the practicality of like, okay, am I trained properly 385 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: to use this thing competently, you know, but what would 386 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: the order of operations need to be if somebody tries 387 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: to kill me and I successfully kill or injure them 388 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: with a firearm, Well, I'm going to need to call 389 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: the police immediately. I'm going to need to contact a 390 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: lawyer immediately, I'm going to hope that there are eyewitnesses there. 391 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: I'm going to hope and seek to provide as much 392 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: evidence that I possibly can that I had no other 393 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: choice to do what I was going to do. Right, 394 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: any civilian carrying a firearm responsibly thinks about the same 395 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: things about like if I am in a shooting. First off, 396 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: there's the question of I need to defend myself, But 397 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: then there's immediately the question if I need to defend 398 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: myself in court. And police don't have that second part, 399 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: not really, not in a way that matters. 400 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 4: And this, to me is why the Alex Pretty situation, 401 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 4: which was so visibly documented by multiple cameras, is such 402 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 4: a concern because in this instance, we see two officers 403 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: unload on the guy. One guy shoots him at least 404 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 4: once or twice, and then another guy unloads on him again, 405 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 4: and we have multiple video angles. Yet the narrative from 406 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 4: them is that this guy was attacking them, which is 407 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 4: clearly not the case on the video. I mean, you 408 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 4: can look at it from multiple angles. Whether or not 409 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 4: you agree with his protest methods, he was not attacking anyone. 410 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 4: He was standing between them, getting pepper sprayed and being 411 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 4: beaten with pepper spray can and then getting unloaded on 412 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 4: and at the same time, we now live in this 413 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 4: situation where at least some parts of the firearms community 414 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 4: or gun community, which isn't owning a thing, isn't a community, 415 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 4: but we use that term gun community. Like you said, 416 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 4: some of these rights groups have said something, but the 417 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 4: response to this is still disturbing to me, because there's 418 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 4: a lot of people saying, well, don't show up to 419 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 4: a protest with a gun, don't be in public with 420 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 4: a gun, you can't bring gun. In fact, we saw 421 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 4: parts of the Trump administration saying, don't show up with 422 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 4: a gun. This man had a handgun and two magazines 423 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 4: on him looking for trouble. Well, if he was, he 424 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 4: didn't have the gun out. And by the way, carrying 425 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 4: a handgun with an extra magazine is by no means abnormal. 426 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 4: In fact, that's a normal procedure for most people that concealed. 427 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 3: Carrie. 428 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 4: If you and I were hanging out on the street 429 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 4: and we decided that we got into a fight with 430 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 4: some guy, you know, Sheila Woof comes out of the 431 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 4: bar and starts swinging on us, and then and then 432 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 4: not only did we punch him and knock them to 433 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 4: the ground, You shoot him and then I shoot him 434 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 4: nine more times. 435 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 3: And there's video evidence of that. We're going to jail forever. 436 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 4: But we have footage of these guys doing this and 437 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 4: really nothing comes of it. 438 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: Part of like what I really want to get across 439 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: to people is how bog standard this behavior is. The 440 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: agents that shot Preddy were experienced veterans. They were not newbies. 441 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: They were not proud boys who just gotten inducted into 442 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: the force, you know, and tasked with doing vigilante justice. 443 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: They were sworn law enforcement officers with decorated careers, and 444 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: they were acting the way the average cop expects people 445 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: to act in a lot of situations, or at least 446 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: at least a significant chunk of the law enforcement community 447 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 1: expects police officers to be able to act right. 448 00:19:58,520 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 2: Like I don't know that. 449 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: I think most police officers are going to shoot a 450 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: man who has been disarmed when he's in the middle 451 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: of a pile of guys who have their hands on him. 452 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: But most police officers will defend their colleagues who do 453 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: the same right. That's almost more of the issue. It's 454 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: not that the average police officer is looking for an 455 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: excuse to shoot somebody. It's that there's enough of those 456 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: guys on the force and all of their friends support 457 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: them when they do it right, And that doesn't exist 458 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: on the civilian side of things, right I think about 459 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: like in Portland, we had a mass shooting that was 460 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: stopped by a protester who was then gave himself up 461 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: to the police and was taken into custody. 462 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: He was initially charged with murder. 463 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: And if there was the knowledge as a police officer 464 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: that if I shoot someone, whether or not it's totally justified, 465 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,959 Speaker 1: the next few months of my life are fucked completely. 466 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: I'm not getting time off to chill. I am having 467 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: to defend myself and have some of the worst stress 468 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: of my life. Maybe we'd have fewer police shootings, right 469 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: if they knew it was going to be a miserable 470 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: situation whenever they drew their gun and fired on somebody. 471 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: And I think you have to have that be the understanding. 472 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: And I know, like the counterpoint that at least police 473 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: defenders will come up with is like, well that might 474 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: make them less likely to defend themselves, and like, well, 475 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: then why are you calling them heroes? If you're not 476 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: expecting them to risk their lives the good of the 477 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: body politic. Right, We'll talk more about this, but first, ads. 478 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 3: What's really interesting about this? 479 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 4: And I would think, I mean, I'm sure you have 480 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 4: a really large amount of cops in the audience here, 481 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 4: but here's the thing. Really, everyone should be concerned about this, 482 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 4: even cops, even border patrol, even ice. Law enforcement in 483 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 4: general should be concerned about this because as this activity 484 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 4: becomes frankly more common and more accepted in their ranks, 485 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 4: that thin blue line being not one about solidarity but 486 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 4: one of silence and lack of justice. That puts them 487 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 4: a danger too, because if a person or people are 488 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 4: so afraid of the reality of the fact that they 489 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 4: can be just executed in the street with no repercussions 490 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 4: of it, it sort of gives civilians, well, it takes 491 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 4: away our trust in the system. There's no due process. 492 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 4: You can just die for nothing, for having a cell 493 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 4: phone in your pocket. It'll make some people more reckless 494 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 4: in their actions when dealing with law enforcement, because they 495 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 4: are like, what do I have to lose, I'm gonna 496 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 4: die anyway. 497 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: It's the same logical problem as if you're like, well, 498 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: armed robberies should have the same consequences as killing a guy, 499 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: or they should be very similar. Your life should be 500 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: over either way. Well, then what's the reason not to 501 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: shoot someone and kill them at a robbery. Leaving them 502 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: alive just increases the odds they identify you. If you're 503 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: looking at the difference between thirty years in prison or 504 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 1: fifty years in prison for robbery and murder, why not 505 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: just commit the murder right Like, it's this calculus that's 506 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: being forced on people. If you know, any time the 507 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: police take you into custody or start to move to 508 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: put hands on you, you feel like there's a very 509 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: good chance they're just going to murder you. Then people 510 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: are going to start making very different choices when they're 511 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: physically in contact with the police, and that makes life 512 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: a lot more dangerous for everybody. And that's part of 513 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: why this is what we're seeing is just so fucking irresponsible. 514 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 4: And historically there's realities for this too, depending on what 515 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 4: part of the community or who you know, your demographic 516 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 4: if you want to go back to the past, whether 517 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 4: or not you agree or disagree with like the politics 518 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 4: or actions of for example, the Black Panthers, The reality 519 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 4: is because black men were just shot by cops with 520 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 4: no justice being delivered. Ever, they started taking on strategies 521 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 4: and policies that reflected that feer and concern. But now 522 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 4: that's being extended to people well beyond that. When we 523 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 4: see middle class VA nurses with a license being killed 524 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 4: the same way, well, this is what's been going on 525 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 4: in those communities for decades and decades, well before the 526 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 4: Civil War. Let's be realistic. And so I'm not saying 527 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 4: that was right or wrong, but I'm saying it is 528 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 4: a logical conclusion. When you fear that the agents of 529 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 4: the state can kill you and there's no justice to 530 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 4: ever be had, well what do you have to lose. 531 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: When we were talking about this early, you brought up 532 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: something the Attorney General of Arizona had said recently on 533 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: the subject of ice agents who are not identifiable as 534 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: law enforcement coming to your door with guns. 535 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 4: I don't have the direct quote, but I'm paraphrasing here, 536 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 4: but it was along the lines of if people are 537 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 4: at your doors that are unidentified with masks in Arizona, 538 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 4: the castle doctrine essentially provides you the right to use 539 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 4: force against them. And that is a very interesting statement 540 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 4: to be made by someone as high in power of 541 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 4: government of a state level at that point. But I 542 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 4: mean there's some truth to that, and the reality is 543 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,239 Speaker 4: when people aren't identifiable, it is very easy to show up. 544 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 4: And I mean we've already seen examples of people pretending 545 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 4: to be ice because it's very easy to put on 546 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 4: some body armors, some camouflage and a mask and look 547 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 4: like these guys that are not identifiable. And therefore, when 548 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 4: that is the case, how do you know what's there 549 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 4: and what you're facing is even law enforcement in the 550 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 4: first place? 551 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And this is Chris Mays, Chris with a hey, 552 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: who's a Democrat, and the Arizona Attorney General. And as 553 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: you said, the way that it was framed in this 554 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: conversation was basically, this is a disaster because if you 555 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: have law enforcement agents that you can't identify, people absolutely 556 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: have a right to just start blasting in Arizona based. 557 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: On Castle doctrine. 558 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: And in fact, the interviewer in that brom Resnik, asked like, 559 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: are you giving people permission to shoot federal agents? And 560 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: May said, like, the law does, right, Like that's the issue. 561 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 1: You know, how do you know if some guy's just 562 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: in a mask at your door with a gun. 563 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 2: How do you know? 564 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: And the fact that you're expecting Americans, a jumpy country 565 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: of paranoid conspiracy theorists with four hundred million guns to 566 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: see masked men at their doors and show discretion, it 567 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: seems like a bad bet to me. 568 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 4: You know, this comes back to the point I was making. 569 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 4: I don't think the Attorney General was there. What was saying, 570 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 4: just go shoot federal agents. I don't think that was 571 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 4: the point. The point was simply what I mentioned earlier, 572 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 4: which is when you can't identify or you don't know 573 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 4: what is going on, or you're in a situation in 574 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 4: which these people are not acting in a reasonable manner, 575 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 4: you don't know what you're dealing with. It's the same 576 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 4: thing I mentioned earlier, in which if you're that concern 577 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 4: or you don't believe that due process or justice is 578 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 4: going to be served, your decision making logic might very 579 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 4: well change. And like you said, in a country where 580 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 4: many people are armed, I think this is something that 581 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 4: every side of this issue should be concerned about, including 582 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 4: the law enforcement agents, because they are at risk too. 583 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 4: As this continues, the risk to them increases, which will 584 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 4: then be used to justify more force against civilians because 585 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 4: it's a vicious circle. 586 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: Well, that's a fun note to end on. Carl. 587 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: I want to direct people towards en Range TV. You 588 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: mentioned that you have a video about one of the 589 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: shootings that we talked about, so I want to let 590 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: you kind of plug that at the end. 591 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks, Robert, I appreciate that a lot. So in 592 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 4: Range TV is my video project. It's about ten years 593 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 4: old now. You can just find it at range dot tv, 594 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 4: which is my website, or you can just google in 595 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 4: range TV on YouTube and you'll find it immediately. The 596 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 4: algorithm will give it to you, but the search engines 597 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 4: might and the video that I'm referencing there, and there's 598 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 4: a lot of them on there in regards to topics 599 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 4: like this historically speaking, but the specific one about danziger 600 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 4: Bridge is right there. So if you go to range 601 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 4: TV and type in danziger Bridge dam Zingr, you will 602 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 4: find that two thousand and five shooting, which is just 603 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 4: an example of so many of these had happened. And 604 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 4: I do have some discussions on there about recent events 605 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 4: about Alex Pretty and such as well. So Robert, thank 606 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 4: you for having me back on the show. I always 607 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 4: appreciate it, and I appreciate our collaborations, and hopefully somehow 608 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 4: this stuff makes a difference. 609 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope so too. 610 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: But at least I think it gives people something to 611 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: like expect, right, like to look at this is kind 612 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: of the cycle we're going to continue to see unless 613 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: they pull back, unless ice and border patrols start using 614 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: a great deal more discretion. Like, I think we've given 615 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: people an idea of like where the future is trending, 616 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, and I unfortunately I'm not super optimistic about 617 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: it right now, but you know, tomorrow's unwritten. 618 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 2: It could happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 619 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 620 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 621 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can now 622 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: find sources for it could Happen here listed directly in 623 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:05,719 Speaker 1: episode descriptions. 624 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.