1 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: Justin Bieber, Selena Gomez, scads of stars rushed to Hill 2 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: Song Church, the New Age Christian version of church, but 3 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: now in the way of the discovery of affairs, a 4 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: sex scandal, claims of misappropriation of funds. What's next? Is there? 5 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: An investigation ongoing and a swift fall from Grace Lens 6 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 1: fired earlier this month, the church, citing several reasons, including 7 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: quote moral failures, launching a quote independent investigation into the 8 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: culture of the church, admitting he was unfaithful to his 9 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: wife of seventeen years, writing on Instagram, I take full 10 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: responsibility for my action. I now begin a journey of 11 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: rebuilding trust with my wife Laura and my children and 12 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: taking real time to work on and heal my own 13 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: life and seek out the help that I need. You 14 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: were just hearing our friends, Zerene Shaw at ABC News. Well, 15 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: you know what, God bless him. But I'm still concerned 16 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: about allegations of misappropriations of funds. And when I say funds, 17 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the money that we all put in 18 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: the offering plate, those funds. Is it true? With me 19 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: and all Star panel to make sense of it all? 20 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: With me? Troy Slayton High profile criminal defense attorney Joining 21 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: me out of LA. You can find him at Floyd 22 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: Skier in Law dot com. Doctor Bethany Marshall, Psycho Analyst 23 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: to the Stars, Joining me from LA at doctor Bethany 24 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: Marshall dot com. She's the star of a brand new 25 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: Netflix series, Bling Empire. Stephen Lampley, author of a brand 26 00:01:54,360 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: new book, former co author Speaker Undercover sv You Detective, 27 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: brand new book twelve and Murder, and you can find 28 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: that on Amazon. Emmy Award winning national investigative correspondent formerly 29 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: with The Washington Post, then with CNN. Art Harris at 30 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: Art Harris Investigates dot com. Special guests Joining us Hannah 31 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: Frishburg from The New York Post Features reporter and Tanya 32 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: Eleven Hillsong critic and author People in Glass Houses, an 33 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: insider story of a life in and out of Hillsong. 34 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: You can find her at Tanya Levin dot com. Wow, 35 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: Where do I even start? First of all, to you, 36 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: Hannah Frishbury, Joining us with The New York Post. For 37 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: those people that have not heard of Hillsong or Lentz, 38 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: Carl Lentz, tell me what is it? Why the big deal? 39 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: Hillsong is an Australia based megachurch that has built its 40 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: brand on being youth oriented. It's got a lot of 41 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: celebrity endorsements from folks who seem to enjoy the music. 42 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: Hill Song's got a huge branch that's dedicated to music. 43 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: It's very catchy, very poppy, Jesus oriented but also danceable. 44 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 1: And yeah, they've recently come into the headline for the 45 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: fall of Lentz, who was their star pastor, which has 46 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: unearthed a ton of other muck to do with the 47 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: church following its fall. But we are talking about celebrities 48 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: flocking to Hill's Song and you said it's Australian base, 49 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: but it is here in the US. What celebrities are 50 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: we talking about. I'm sure that it'll fly to Australia 51 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: every Sunday morning. Where are they located? The celebrities? I mean, 52 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: Bieber is the biggest name I would say who's associated 53 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: with the church because him and Carl Ventz got real 54 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: buddy buddy for about a year there and he was, yeah, 55 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: I mean basically serving as like a giant walking celebrity 56 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: endorsement for this church during that time. Let's take a 57 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: listen to our cutting number three This is Mary hk 58 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: Choit hbo by Sneeze. It is Justin Bieber to Hillsong 59 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: what Tom Cruise is to Scientology. No if apples and oranges, 60 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: because Scientology you're so out there. They're like, you're you're, 61 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: you're the guy. So if we can get you indoctrinated 62 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: quick enough, we've been making the folks fee. We've never 63 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: done that. Justin's never set foot on stage. Hillsong works. 64 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: Their global audience is staggering. Six point one billion minutes 65 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: of Hillsong content was viewed on YouTube last year. Hillsong United, 66 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: one of their music groups, went double platinum. It's shiny 67 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 1: packaging for age old messages. Well, I don't know what's 68 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: wrong with shiny packaging for age old messages when you're 69 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: talking about the Old and New Testaments. But things went sideways. 70 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Amy a Robot ABC News. Lentz 71 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: was known as a rock star, priested Hillsong, a church 72 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: previously frequented by celebrities like Chris Pratt and Vanessa Hudgins, 73 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: and followed online by more than half a million people. 74 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: I want to love people more. I just want to 75 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: love Carl Moore, Rnein Kareem says when she met Lentz 76 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: five months ago, they began what she calls a consensual 77 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: affair in spite of what she thought were red flags, 78 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: including him telling her not to google him, saving her 79 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: number in the notes app instead of his contact lists, 80 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: and refusing to tell her his last name or what 81 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: he did for a living, despite regularly posting photos of 82 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: himself online with Hollywood elite and NBA stars, something she 83 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: says she didn't know what first. He's looking. You know, 84 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: I worked with celebrities, and I say what do exactly 85 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: you do? And he keeps saying I managed celebrities and 86 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: they travel with them. He didn't want to say what 87 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: he does. Did you think that was a red flag? 88 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: He won't give you his last name? Yeah, it was 89 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: to doctor Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst to the Stars, joining us 90 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: from La ding Ding ding Ding Red flashing sign bell 91 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: of alarm when the guy you're sleeping with won't tell 92 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: you what he does for a living. Catchphrase don't google me. 93 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: I mean I would run for the hills, screaming as 94 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: if I had seen a monster. Don't google me. Well, 95 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: the first thing you gotta do is google him but Nancy, 96 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: think of the story as he might have spun for her, 97 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: about don't google me. I'm working for these big celebrities 98 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: and I've signed a non disclosure and if you know 99 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: who I am, then you might tell other people. This 100 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: pastor didn't lie small, He lied big, Nancy. He spun 101 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: a story. Think of it as not just a comment about, Hey, 102 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: I'd like to go out with you, I'd love to 103 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: have sex with you. I want to throw back to 104 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: quila in your apartment every Sunday afternoon after church. It 105 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: wasn't just that he built a narrative. This is not lying. 106 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: This is lying, conning, and manipulativeness. So yes, she should 107 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: have run for the hills, unless it was exciting for 108 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: her like it was for him, in which case people 109 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: are willing to believe almost anything exciting. You know what, 110 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: I love my husband, I really do. I love him. 111 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: The thought of doing anything to jeopardize my time with 112 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: our children, i e. Co parenting fifty percent custody. Yeah, 113 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: it's not that exciting, all right, It's not that exciting. 114 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: The thought of being away from my children half the 115 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: time that's not going to happen with me is a 116 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: very special guest Tanya Levin Tanya Hillsong critic and author 117 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: People in Glass Houses, an insider story of life in 118 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: and out of Hillsong. Tanya. Of course Len's having affairs, 119 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: multiple affairs, we think at least one right now isn't 120 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: a crime. That's not a crime. Nor is this the 121 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: first time a great preacher has fallen from grace? Does 122 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: anybody remember the name Jimmy Swagger because I sure do 123 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: roll it. I have sinned it, constue my Lord Wells, 124 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: and I would ask that clearness every stage. Unto it 125 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: is in the seas of buds forgiftfulness? Did he have 126 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: to ask for forgiveness on a microphone televised Aunt Harris, 127 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning national correspondent, you're the one that crack Swaggert, right, 128 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: I was among those. But I was there the day 129 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: he resigned. After chasing a lot of rumor and innuendo. 130 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: He was confessing to something people weren't quite sure of, 131 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: except that I actually interviewed a lady of the night 132 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: who worked out of a twenty dollars Actually say, lady 133 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: of the night, Okay, I guess I'm impressed enough. We'd 134 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: kerk go ahead and Ironically, Swagger was caught outside the 135 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: motel by the private eye of a rival preacher he 136 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: had attacked for having other relationships than his wife. So 137 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: this guy was very upset because he lost a big 138 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: TV deal and he got a PI to stake. Swaggered 139 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: out when he heard he was going to this little 140 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: hotel and got pictures of him. And he asked, Jimmy, 141 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: what are you doing here? And he said, oh, I'm 142 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: just changing my flat tire. He said, no, you're not 143 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: changing your flight tire. My PI cut your valve stems. Jimmy, 144 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: bad enough, you're lying about this. But you've been lying 145 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: about me forever anyway? Was it always got wrong? When 146 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: he makes TV and preachers climb stories with Nancy Grace, guys. 147 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: The latest passer to seemingly topple from the pulpit is 148 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: the Hillsong a megachurch pastor Carl Lentz straight out to 149 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: Tanya Levin, whose new book People in Glasshouse is inside 150 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: a story Life in and Out of Hillsong. What do 151 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: you make of it, Tanya, you were in Hillsong. What 152 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: does this all mean? Oh? I mean, well, it's just 153 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: entirely part of their culture. These people will become untouchable. 154 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: They have weeping women at their feet, and you know, 155 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: nobody holds them to account for anything, and they are 156 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: made into you know, complete celebrities, only with God as 157 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: a backup. So you know, they think they can do anything, 158 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: and they generally can. You know, why is it, doctor 159 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, that we all get so distraught when a 160 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: pastor cheats or with a congregant, or a pastor defrauds 161 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: the church of money. That money is put in the 162 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: offering plate by people like my mom and dad who 163 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: work night shifts to support us and tied to the church. 164 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: Why is it so upsetting when a pastor does something 165 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: that other people do every day and we just chalk 166 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: it off because the pastor grooms the congregation in these cases, 167 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: not all pastor's groom the congregations, but in this case, 168 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: the pastor pastor's groomed the congregation just like a pedophile 169 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: grooms the victims. To believe that the victims in this case, 170 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: the congregants are special and unique. They have a special 171 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: place in the world that they are contributing to the 172 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: Kingdom of God. And many of these followers put money 173 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: in the offering plate that they didn't even have to give. Nancy. 174 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: My parents tied ten percent of their income their entire life. 175 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: When my father asked my grand mother for my mother's 176 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: hand in marriage, she was a single mom. Her first 177 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: question was, do you tithe? I mean, tiding holds a 178 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: very sacred place in the religious community. So to think 179 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: that all that money goes for fancy dinners, gym memberships, mistresses, 180 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: fancy bottles of wine. When you're giving money, they could 181 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: have gone to your children's shoes, school tuition, family vacations, Nancy. 182 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: That hurts. That really really hurts. And it's the double standard. 183 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: It's the pastor who says being homosexual is wrong, so 184 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: then you renounce your sexuality for your entire life, and 185 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: then you find out that that pastor is indeed having 186 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: an affair. It is the deception from a person who's 187 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: in a position of trust. I'm trying to figure out 188 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: here to Hannah Frishburg joining us from the New York Post. 189 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: She's the features reporter there. Hannah, the sex a pastor 190 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: having sex or the congregann or someone else is you know, 191 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: the oldest story in the book. You can find that 192 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: in the Old Testament but allegedly misappropriation of funds. What 193 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: are the claims and they have there are no formal 194 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: charges as of right now. What are the claims? What's 195 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: the investigation? A number of congregants reached out to me 196 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: to say that during their time at the church, doing 197 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: what was functionally volunteer work, often babysitting or doing other 198 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: household tasks for the pastors, they got access to these 199 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: text cards, these personal use business cards that were apparently 200 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 1: like debit cards, just full of ties money, which is 201 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: it seems to be like there might be an investigation 202 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: into this in terms of it being embezzlement, as this 203 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: was money that the you know, the church was getting 204 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: from its congregants in the name of bettering the church, 205 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: and it appears to be going to large amounts of 206 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: takeout food, It's going to ATVs that some of the 207 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: pastors were just apparently recklessly writing around Williamsburg Dean and 208 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: de Luca, gift baskets, just a whole variety of luxury 209 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: goods that I don't think these congregants would have given 210 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: if they had realized that's where their money was going 211 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: to be spent. Oh, absolutely not, you know, to Steve Lampley, 212 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: former undercover detective and author of brand new book Twelve 213 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: and Murdered. You can find that on Facebook. Steve, this 214 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: sounds like a very extensive and exhaustive white collar crime 215 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: investigation based on what Hannah the claims that Hannah Frishburg 216 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: is laying out. And again the Hillside pastor has not 217 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: been formally charged. But if members are coming forward to 218 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: reporters like Hannah Frishburg's saying I tied my money, and 219 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: now we're finding out about these debit cards, it were 220 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: chapped straight into tie the money, according to reports, how 221 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: do you track that down? How do you prove something 222 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: like that? Nancy? These prepaid cards, it's going to be hard, 223 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: it's gonna be hard. I think they're called PEX cards. 224 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: It's going to be really hard to do on them. 225 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: And and now maybe that's why they use them. I'm 226 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: assuming it's my opinion. I don't know. Maybe that's the 227 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: premise for the PEX because it is law. Those cards 228 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: are what are they? Steve Lampley. A PEX card is 229 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: nothing more than a prepaid similar to a prepaid debit card. 230 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: You put money on there, you spend it. H It's 231 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: a lot different than a credit card where you have 232 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: a trackable account of each of each expenditure that you 233 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: do that you get through the mail. These PEX cards 234 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: are prepaid accounts and you can use them anyway any 235 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: way you choose to. But the problem that the church 236 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: church investigations are a little different because you've got the 237 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, you've got the Constitution back in them, or 238 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: free assembly and freedom of religion, and I believe it was. 239 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think the founding Fathers when they 240 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: came up with freedom of religion anticipated paid debit cards 241 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: to give out to people to right ATMs and by 242 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: lavish giftbacks. I don't think that's exactly what they meant 243 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: by freedom of religion. But I do think there's a 244 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: tax issue there. Hannah Freshburg, there's the issue of churches 245 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: having this exempt status. They don't pay taxes all charities, actually, 246 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: not just churches the way the rest of us do. 247 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: And that's for a reason because the government wants to 248 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: promote charity. But if there is wrongdoing, that status is 249 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: gonna be yanked prompto. I don't know. I mean, this 250 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: is certainly not the first time a church hasn't found 251 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: to be misusing its status tracts exempt. John Oliver did 252 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: a really good segment where he created a church called 253 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption and it's a legally recognized 254 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: church and he was able to get tax exempt donations. 255 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: And I think he only stopped it when people started 256 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: sending in literal feed But I mean, it's a huge 257 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: loophole in the tax law in America. I can't speak 258 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: to the rest of the world. Climb stories with Nancy Grace. 259 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: Let's get our cut twenty three. You're going to hear 260 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: a voice you know very well speaking to Barbara Walters. Listen. 261 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: You had preached that God wanted his subjects to live 262 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: a lavish or a successful lifestyle. You quoted from the 263 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: New Testament. I pray you will be in good health 264 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: as your sole prosperous. Did you really feel that God 265 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: was advising you to acquire material wealth. I really felt 266 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: that prost charity gospel was the truth. I really thought 267 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: that God wanted us to not have any problems, not 268 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: have any sickness, not have any pain. Yes, but that's 269 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: not the same as God wanting you to have lots 270 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: of money, expensive clothes, huge salaries, lots of luxuries, we're 271 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: not talking about health and pains. Yes, but I really 272 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: sincerely believed in what I was teaching. Our ministry just 273 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. You were hearing 274 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: the voice of Jim Baker, of Jim and Timmy Faye Baker. 275 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: What does that have to do with Hillsong today the 276 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: topic we're discussing, Jackie, Well, you know what, it seems 277 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: like there's nothing new under the sun. Not only is 278 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: the founder of this huge megachurch seemingly doing the Lord's 279 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: work here on Earth under fire after the pastor is 280 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: uncovered with affairs, but now allegations from inside the church 281 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: were there, Tie, that's going to support a lavish lifestyle 282 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: by the Hillsong pastor and his family. Well, nobody knows 283 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: Jim and Tammy Faye Baker better than Art Harris joining us. 284 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: Art Harris investigates dot Com, Art hit Me, and Andree. 285 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: Jim Baker was very different than Hillsong. He was Hillsong 286 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: on steroids. This was someone who's lavish spending threatened at 287 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: Tackle exempt status. IRS did not like the fact that 288 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: quote substantial portion of his earnings. You were talking about 289 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: millions of dollars a year went to him and Tammy 290 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: Faye Baker, his late wife. You remember who who cried 291 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: on TV in her mask a Iran, very flamboyant. They 292 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: had people enthralled with a daily talk show with a 293 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: prosperity gospel. It was called Praise the Lord that people 294 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: might not remember. And they spent money on eight thousand 295 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: dollars dinner parties, three hundred and fifty dollars. That was 296 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: a lot of money at night hotel rooms and they 297 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: had to pay. Do you remember the air conditioned dog house, 298 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: air condition doghouse? They sent their uh in, their security 299 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: guard out to buy sex toys with charitable tax exempt contributions. 300 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: I knew, I knew you would be the one to 301 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: bring up sex toys Art. Now how did I know that? 302 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, but I knew that you would. I 303 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: knew it wouldn't be Jackie over here. I knew I 304 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: knew it would be Art here. Go ahead. The Jimer 305 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: served time in prison for defrauding his his flock. He 306 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: was collecting more than sixty million dollars to build condos 307 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: for the elderly that he never built, and that's what 308 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: got him ultimately into trouble in Federal corl about the money. 309 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: Aren't here? You remember, I think you were in the 310 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: courtroom when he kind of got under council table and 311 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: crawled into a fetal position, That's right, and they had 312 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: to coax him out. Respect. Man was weeping and he 313 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: was practiced, you know, in the in the yard of 314 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: weeping from his TV shows, as was his his nemesis, 315 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: Jimmy swag This was about the godfathers of the Gospel, 316 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: about about different TV preachers who bumped each other off 317 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: of it with any windows and sex scandals so they 318 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: could grab their flock, their market share, and get even 319 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: more money. You know what, Troy Slaton, I was asking something, 320 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: aren't Harris said? Jogged my memory? I was asking doctor 321 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, why is so upsetting when a pastor does 322 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: something like this. It's called hypocrisy. It's hypocrisy when you 323 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,719 Speaker 1: think about Swaggert. And I don't know what religion if 324 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: any of you have, Troy, but this whole thing about 325 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: remember when Baker just said he relied on something in 326 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: the New Testament that said the Lord wants your soul 327 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: to prosper. That has nothing to do with your wallet. 328 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: I mean, if you don't know the teaching. Just look 329 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: at Christ. He had a robe and a pair of 330 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: sandals that somebody probably gave him for Pete's sake. That's it. 331 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: He wandered from home to home preaching the gospel. He 332 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: had nothing, nothing at all. That's the example I think. 333 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: But Troy, it's the hypocrisy that's so irritating that just 334 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: shocks everyone. I understand that, and I understand that when 335 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: people are putting money in the dishes for tithe or 336 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: sending in donation from quite not a dish, you have 337 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: just confirmed my suspicion that you do not have a religion, 338 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: because if you did, you would not call it a dish. 339 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: But go ahead, go ahead. Not judging Nancy. They don't 340 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: have the offering plates at my temple here in Los Angeles, 341 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: but anyhow, they don't have a dish either, But Nancy, Nancy, 342 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: the idea is the same. And I understand that when 343 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: people are offering money and giving money, donating money to 344 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: the church, and whatever way that they did, it's they 345 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: expect that it's going to be used for charitable purposes. 346 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: The organization is tax exempt under five or one C three, 347 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: which means that they don't pay taxes. You can't tax God. 348 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: And that's the way our government has it set up. 349 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 1: But the church needs to keep very careful records of 350 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: where every single dollar goes. And there's nothing that says 351 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: that the pastors or anyone that works for the church 352 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: can't have a high salary. There's nothing that says that 353 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: they very well for their work. And so I want 354 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: them to be paid because what they do is so 355 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: important in our world. But you remember this phrase. I'll 356 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: throw this one to you, Tanya eleven, author was Inside 357 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: of Hillsong, author of People in Glasshouses, inside a story 358 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: of life in and out of Hillsong. Give to Rome 359 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: that which is Rome's Caesar, and give to the Lord, 360 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: which is the Lord. And Christ specifically removed himself from 361 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: money matters, except do you remember, Tanya, the parable of 362 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: the widow's might. The widow, who had nothing, goes up 363 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: to the front and drops in the equivalent of about 364 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: a half a penny, And the rich guy showed off 365 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: by putting in a lot of money. And Christ said 366 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: her might meant more to the Lord than the rich 367 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: guy's treasure trove, because it was all she had. So 368 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: here we see a complete distortion of that very basic 369 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: premise according to reports. Yeah, I mean the whole thing 370 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: is completely back to the front. When I began researching 371 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: to have a look at what you know was different 372 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: between Hillsong and the Gospels, it was like every single 373 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: line they were just doing the opposite with you know, 374 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: the way that people dress and the way they show off. 375 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: But I think another really important thing to talk about 376 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: is that these guys actually don't do any charity. So 377 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: what they will do is they will rely on volunteers 378 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: and donations. So if there's a Christmas hamper going out 379 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: with Hillsong's name on it, there were volunteers that donated 380 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: the contents, volunteers that put it together, volunteers that will 381 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: distribute that. So they're never really using their ties for 382 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: anything charitable. And that's the truth of it. They really 383 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: don't deserve a tax restatus at all that I cannot 384 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: find an example in the research of anywhere where they 385 00:25:52,720 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: actually use church funding towards helping anybody, apart from moment volunteers. Yes, 386 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: I hear doctor Bethany and by the way, everybody, doctor 387 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: Bethany not only psychoanalyst to the stars, but also her 388 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: parents were missionaries. They've lived the missionary lifestyle of having 389 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: so little. You know, Bethany, what Taniel Levin is saying 390 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: is so integral to so many church foundations. You know, 391 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: I'm a Methodist. We're all about love and in all 392 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: every Methodist church I've ever been to, at the top 393 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: of the budget is missions, and they every church needs 394 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: to hit that mission's quota of whatever they take in, 395 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,239 Speaker 1: and it is guarded and it is watched by the 396 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: hierarchy of the Methodist Church. I mean, whether it goes 397 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: to hurricane relief or children in need, it has to 398 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: go to missions, and that's very carefully watched. It is earmarked. Nancy. 399 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: I remember once a man in the congregation bought my 400 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: father a suit, and I was like maybe eleven or 401 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: twelve years old, and I couldn't figure out why somebody 402 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: was buying my father a suit so he could wear 403 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: to preach in the pulpit. And then I realized for 404 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: the first time, it's because our family didn't have money, 405 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: and that we were reliant. My dad was getting paid 406 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: a good salary by the Baptist Church. But also people 407 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: in the congregation wanted to help out in some way, 408 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: so it was so different from what you're seeing with 409 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: Hellsong Church. You know, Nancy, We've covered so many cults 410 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: over the years where there's a hierarchical organization, people at 411 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: the top are segregated from people at the bottom, and 412 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: there's a rampant sex culture, and we eventually assumed, well, 413 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: this is just a sex culled In this case, this 414 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: church seems to be a money called. In fact, I 415 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: don't think we should really call it the church. I'm 416 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it's a pond, the scheme or sometimes 417 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: the church clime stories with Nancy Grace. For those of 418 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: you just joining us, we're talking about the Hillside Mega 419 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: Church and it's pastor uh, it's Hillsong. Excuse me, it's 420 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: Pastor Carl lentz Um. An affair has been uncovered? Is 421 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: there just one? Are there more? Just one? Just one 422 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: that we know? Any that shows what you know? Jackie? 423 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: Although I said it, you were you were throwing the strings. 424 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: Um is that Tanya eleven jumping in or Hannah Frisburg? 425 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: This is this is me Tanya high grateful to I'm 426 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: just so grateful to hear somebody saying that, you know, 427 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: this place is not a church. It's got nothing to 428 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: do with religion. They just throw in a few Bible 429 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: verses to support it. It is no different to Coca 430 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: Cola or any kind of multinational corporation that's making money 431 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: out of people's feelings. These guys just use a couple 432 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: of Bible that to prop them up. It's a Ponzi scheme. 433 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: It's a cult, you know, Art Harris. That hurts me. 434 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,479 Speaker 1: I mean that's why we say we practice Christianity, because 435 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: I for one, I'm really not very good at it. 436 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: But it hurts me to see Christ or the Bible 437 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: use this way danby these people put you know, themselves 438 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: on a pulpit and the followers are so brainwashed by 439 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: their gospel of send me money, you will go to heaven. 440 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: It is such an old, recycled con game that they're 441 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: the ones ultimately who are devastated like you when they 442 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: give somebody, you know, their trust and they're let down 443 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,239 Speaker 1: just because they put man on a pedestal and they 444 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: should be looking a little higher. You know something curious 445 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: about you are at Harris. You're always right up in 446 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: all these pastors that are with hookers and running around, 447 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: and you know, I've got an exactly. I'm gonna put 448 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: you and Bethany up after the program to try to 449 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: figure out what that's all about. Hannah Frishburg joining me 450 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: for the New York past She's the features reporter there 451 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: and I love her. Hannah, What's what's happening next? Is 452 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: there an investigation going on? I mean, I can't stop 453 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: a pastor from cheating, Okay, can't that, but that's not 454 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: breaking the law. And I'm certainly not the church lady. 455 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: I only care when it's a crime, specifically a felony. 456 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: Is there an investigation going on? And how did these 457 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: Hillsong I'm congregants come to you? How did they find you? What? 458 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: What were they saying? Most people just found me over Instagram. 459 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: My dms are open and they just sent over messages 460 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,239 Speaker 1: after I started initially covering Carl Lenz's firing as an 461 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: assignment and said there's a lot more here and we'd 462 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: like to tell you about it. There is not in 463 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: an investigation on a legal level as far as I'm 464 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: currently aware, But I did receive screen chats of an 465 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: email this morning from Brian Houston to the congregation flatly 466 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: denying everything. That's his strategy. He just slatly denies everything. 467 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: He just tweeted a few minutes ago, flatly denying the 468 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: twenty million dollar lawsuit in Australia. He's pretty this is 469 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: how he handled the allegations. In Australia. The Hillsong Property 470 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: Arm was involved in the construction of a variety of 471 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: buildings residential in Rosebery, Australia that were built shodily, and 472 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: the tenants there are suing because they bought these just 473 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: under a million dollar units that are appear to be 474 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: worthless and structurally unsound. But Hillsong is now reciprocally played 475 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: their suite. Hillsong is now suing the company that is 476 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: being sued. So it's just they just respond with aggression 477 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: and denial consistently. And I wanted giving them money out 478 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: of the account. By the way, what was that Utania? 479 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Hi, they've absolutely The company that paid for 480 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: those buildings to be built has now said that that 481 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: particular bank account that they used is now empty. They've 482 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: moved all of the assets out of that company that 483 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: built those apartments. That reminds me of when I used 484 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: to work with the Federal Trade Commission in their anti 485 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: trust and consumer protection divisions. I would go after one 486 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: guy who was selling some zany diet aid making thousands 487 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: and thousands of dollars a week. Yeah, and by the 488 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: time I would get there, they would have already closed 489 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: down that corporation and they were doing it under another 490 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: name and then another time, and you can hardly catch them. 491 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: And that's the federal government. That's it, just me, Nancy, 492 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: it was the Federal Trade Commission trying to stop that. Wow, Okay, 493 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: so that's happening. I didn't know exactly how they're behaving. 494 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: They've got so many I mean, Hannah will tell you 495 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: they've got so many different companies and they just move 496 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: access around. Um yes, internationally. So you know, it's you know, 497 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: it's almost enough to make you turn your back on 498 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: a church. But I am not doing that. The devil 499 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: is not The devil is not getting the best of 500 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: us today. You know, this is not the first time 501 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: a pastor has an affair. And Troy Slayton, I'm sure 502 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: you recall the New Jersey rabbi, very influential Rabbi Fred 503 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: Newlander and a very very wealthy synagogue cheating over and 504 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: over and over on his wife, ultimately murdering his wife 505 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: and he got convicted. So cheating with your pore absolutely not. 506 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: And that rabbi hired two men to kill his wife 507 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: in a murder for higher plot. And so he's exactly 508 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,439 Speaker 1: where he deserves to be, which is serving a life 509 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: sentence in prison. And so when people put, whether it 510 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 1: be air rabbi, their priests, their pastor their minister, up 511 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 1: on a pedestal and give them their hard earned money, 512 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: they believe that they're doing it for some sort of 513 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: good purpose. They feel better in donating that money to 514 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: their temple, their church, and they expect the money is 515 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 1: going to be used for a good purpose. And that's 516 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: where the potential crime is. It's in misappropriation of funds, 517 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: misuse of tax exempt status, fraud, embezzlement. Those are the 518 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,720 Speaker 1: potential crimes. But there is no crime in getting paid 519 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: a high salary from the religious the organization. Well, you're 520 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: right about that. And if this pastor Carl Lentz had 521 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: an affair, you know, since I'm spouting off the little 522 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: bit of scripture that I've memorized, I know under his 523 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,399 Speaker 1: and my religion, he is to be forgiven. Now being 524 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: forgiven and being sentenced under the law for a crime 525 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: are two very different things. So Tanya Levin and Hannah 526 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: Frishburg Tanya author of the book People in Glass Houses, 527 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: insider story to a life in and out of Hillsong. 528 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: Hannah Frishburg with a New York Post Tanya Levin having 529 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: an affair and right now he's only accused of one affair. 530 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: He and his wife are trying to patch their marriage 531 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: back together. That's not a crime. And again, the Hillsong Congregation, 532 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: the church is denying any wrong doing. But if tie 533 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: the money was used to fund a live lifestyle, that 534 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: is going to be a crime. If it's true. Tanya, Oh, 535 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: it's it's one hundred percent true. It's I mean, it's 536 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: the way they've operated since I guess if they very 537 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: first got a taste of Americana. This was a very 538 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: small church up until the late eighties when they saw 539 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: what was happening in the United States and they wanted 540 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: some of that to themselves. And since then they've been 541 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: pursuing the doa relentlessly, you know, and Karl was just 542 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: a product of that system. Wellyanne, Hannah Frishburg, Yeah, that's 543 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: been one of the most interesting things that my sources 544 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: have told me about Hillsong cultures that when they were 545 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: going to church in Sydney, it was mostly just local 546 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: rugby players who were the big celebrities there. But there's 547 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: something about Hillsong's presence in America that has uniquely blended 548 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: with our toxic celebrity culture to just create this absolute 549 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: religious celebrity behemoth, which is he's got a huge magnetic 550 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,800 Speaker 1: pull for people and their money, and it's just wildly toxic. 551 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: As of right now, Lynce and Hillsong deny any and 552 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: all wrongdoing. Let me be clear about that. We wait 553 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: as this story unfolds. Nancy Grace crime story. Signing up 554 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:23,280 Speaker 1: Amen