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Speaker 1: This is Master's in Business with Barry rid Hoolds on

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. This week on the podcast, I have an

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Speaker 1: extra special guest. Sarah Kirschbaum Levy, CEO of Betterment, has

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Speaker 1: a fascinating background in media, brand building, marketing as well

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Speaker 1: as finance. She started out as an intern at Goldman Sachs.

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Speaker 1: She had stints at Disney before going on to be

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Speaker 1: chief operating officer at Nickelodeon and then eventually the Viacom

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Speaker 1: Media Network. If you want to see someone who's been

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Speaker 1: immersed in branding and media and marketing for her whole career,

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Speaker 1: it's harder to find somebody with Sarah's breadth of experience.

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Speaker 1: The pivot into digital asset management at Betterment was a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a surprise, but a lot of the

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Speaker 1: skills are very transferable, and she's really done a substantial

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Speaker 1: job at Betterment. They're now over forty billion dollars. I

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Speaker 1: think they're the largest independent digital advisor that's out there. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Schwab and Vanguard and Fidelity have their own, but obviously

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Speaker 1: they're coming off of trillions of dollars. This is a

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Speaker 1: company that's barely a decade old and is ramped up

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Speaker 1: to over forty billion dollars pretty quickly. If you're interested

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Speaker 1: in marketing, branding, asset management, how to use digital tools

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Speaker 1: to not only make the process less expensive and the

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Speaker 1: user experience better, but just to give customers what they want.

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Speaker 1: I think you'll find this conversation to be quite fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Full disclosure. My firm, Results Wealth Management works with Betterment,

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Speaker 1: which powers our digital investment platform. With no further ado

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Speaker 1: my discussion with Betterment CEO Sarah Kirshboun.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Barry for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for coming. I've been looking forward to this

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Speaker 1: since we started chatting. Was that at future Proof in September? Right,

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Speaker 1: So it's been a couple of months. So so let's

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about your early career, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. You work as an analyst at Disney

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Speaker 1: and then you're a summer intern at Goldman Sachs. What

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Speaker 1: was the career plan?

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Speaker 2: So, I don't know if it was so much a plan.

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Speaker 2: I was just out of college and I loved the

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Speaker 2: media business, you know, thinking about why did I land

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Speaker 2: at Disney as my first job. I always looked to

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Speaker 2: my parents and their careers in terms of what they loved.

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Speaker 2: And I had a belief early on that if you

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Speaker 2: loved what you were doing, you were going to give

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Speaker 2: your all and you were going to excel, and you

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Speaker 2: were going to want to make it, you know, a

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Speaker 2: bigger and bigger part of your life. So my father

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Speaker 2: was a book publisher and my mother was an antiques dealer,

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Speaker 2: And if you asked them on the weekends, you know,

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Speaker 2: what do you want to do? My father would roam

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Speaker 2: bookstores and my mother would go antiquing at flea markets

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Speaker 2: and things. So I thought, what do I love? And

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Speaker 2: I loved the movies? So I thought, is there a

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Speaker 2: way to be in the movie business well as a

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Speaker 2: business executive. Once you learn a little bit about the movies,

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Speaker 2: you realize the movie business is not so much a

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Speaker 2: great business. But Disney as a brand really excited me,

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Speaker 2: and so I thought I could learn sort of beyond movies,

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Speaker 2: and I could learn intellectual property, and I could learn

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Speaker 2: brands and all that. So I started at Disney and

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Speaker 2: I was in the corporate group where we did a

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Speaker 2: lot of M and A and strategic work on behalf

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Speaker 2: of the film and Television division. And my summer pivot

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Speaker 2: was really I was doing deals, and I was doing media,

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Speaker 2: and so the question for me was is it media

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Speaker 2: I love or is it deals I love? And I

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Speaker 2: tested that thesis by spending the summer at Goldman and

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Speaker 2: I worked. I had a great experience there, again, great brand,

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Speaker 2: great company, learned, learned as much as you can learn

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Speaker 2: in a summer summer job, but really loved the media

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Speaker 2: project I was working on more than the other projects.

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Speaker 2: And so that kind of led me back to media

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Speaker 2: for full time.

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Speaker 1: From Goldman Sachs as a summer associate to Nickelodeon. I

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Speaker 1: guess you made the decision that it was media over banking.

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Speaker 2: I did. That's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: And how did it go when you began as an

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Speaker 1: early employee at Nickelodeon.

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Speaker 2: Well, the thing that I was attracted to at Nickelodeon

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Speaker 2: really harkened back to my Disney start, which was it

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Speaker 2: was a great brand and they had a great mission,

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Speaker 2: which which was what's good for kids is good for

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Speaker 2: business and or I don't know if that's a mission

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Speaker 2: so much as a a.

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Speaker 1: Good good slogan anyway, good tagline.

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Speaker 2: Good tagline, but I think it's it was really what

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Speaker 2: kind of powered our thinking about our products and our

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Speaker 2: services was how, you know, how can we enrich the

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Speaker 2: content we were making for kids? And if you told

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Speaker 2: people you worked for Nickelodeon, sort of like if you

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Speaker 2: told them you worked for Disney, they would smile. And I,

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Speaker 2: you know, I really loved that, and I thought working

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Speaker 2: for a brand that everybody loves is a really powerful idea.

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Speaker 2: And so I started in strategy and I didn't know

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Speaker 2: where it would take me, honestly, and grew up at

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Speaker 2: the business. It was the time. I mean hard to

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Speaker 2: look at it now, but at the time, cable was

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Speaker 2: in its growth innings, and you know, we were growing

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Speaker 2: thirty plus percent a year and it was fun.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine that was a lot of fun. So

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Speaker 1: from strategy, tell us about the rest of the career

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Speaker 1: path you took at Nickelodeon, and eventually we'll get to Viacom.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so Nickelodeon, in fact, is a division of Viacom,

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Speaker 2: And so at the time, each of the brands were

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Speaker 2: run as their own distinct business units.

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Speaker 1: How siloed was that, because as I was looking through

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Speaker 1: your resume and you start looking at Viacom, it's MTV,

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Speaker 1: it's Nickelodeon, it's Comedy Central, it's bt. There's like a

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Speaker 1: dozen or more brands. I wasn't sure these will run

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Speaker 1: independently or are they run as part of a big

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Speaker 1: conglomerate or a little bit of each.

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Speaker 2: So over my two plus decades at the company, the

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Speaker 2: answer is yes and yes. Right, So, there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of organizational change. But in the early days when

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Speaker 2: we were growing really fast, the organizational design principle was

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Speaker 2: really around audiences, right, and what audience you served, and

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Speaker 2: so each of the brand groups, so to speak, were

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Speaker 2: designed around really understanding your customer segment and super serving them.

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Speaker 2: So my group was the kids group. We then grew

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Speaker 2: up into the Kids and Family group and added other

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Speaker 2: brands into our portfolio. But there were a lot of

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Speaker 2: organizational design changes over the years. And then fast forward

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Speaker 2: to my second decade when I started to move up

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Speaker 2: to Viacom and expand beyond Nickelodeon. In those days, we

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Speaker 2: moved to more of a platform where each of the

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Speaker 2: brands certainly had separate leadership, but that leadership was really

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Speaker 2: focused on content and marketing, but all of the commercial

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Speaker 2: execution was put together.

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Speaker 1: So as you're moving up the ladder at Nickelodeon, you

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Speaker 1: end up as COO at Nickelodeon. That's it, right, How

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Speaker 1: long did you do that for and what was that? Like?

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Speaker 2: I did that for over a decade.

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Speaker 1: I think, oh really, that's yeah, and that was that

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Speaker 1: the springboard to COO at parent company Viacom.

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Speaker 2: That was the springboard. So what happened was to your

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Speaker 2: organizational design changes point is basically we started to merge

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Speaker 2: different pieces of the business and realized that we needed

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Speaker 2: to be a more efficient platform. Right. Obviously, the pressure

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Speaker 2: of streaming started and we started to see, you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot more pressure on the AD business. So you

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Speaker 2: had a top line that was challenged and you had

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Speaker 2: to rethink the organizational design. And so we started to

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Speaker 2: put the pieces together and I emerged and moved up

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Speaker 2: to corporate to oversee essentially the combining of the various brands.

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Speaker 1: Does anything at Viacom today, what's their streaming business?

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Speaker 2: Like, Well, now it's they've renamed the company and so

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Speaker 2: now it's called Paramount Global, right, and so they have

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Speaker 2: Paramount Plus, which is a okay, there you go. And

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Speaker 2: they also have Pluto TV, which we bought while I

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Speaker 2: was there, which is and AD supported. I think they

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Speaker 2: now call them fast Channels but ad supported streaming.

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Speaker 1: Channels, free ad supported television. There you go, huh, that's

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Speaker 1: really interesting. So you're there, really in an amazing transition.

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Speaker 1: You're there as we as the Internet explodes. Like when

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Speaker 1: I was growing up with the Internet in the nineties,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of pokey and dial up. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: until a little later that there was any real bandwidth

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Speaker 1: post dot com implosion. You're there as streaming ramps up,

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Speaker 1: as video games become substantial. How do you think about

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Speaker 1: how you guys did handling those changes? And then I

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Speaker 1: want to ask, how do you think the rest of

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Speaker 1: the media industry has done.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think one of the reasons I made the

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Speaker 2: career pivot i did is because it's really hard to

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Speaker 2: be the analog incumbent who needs to you know, fight

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Speaker 2: a fight in a digital war when the newbies so

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Speaker 2: to speak, have cheap capital, right and have the ability

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Speaker 2: to candidly to invest and lose money in ways that

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Speaker 2: the incumbents can't. So I think, you know, definitionally we

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Speaker 2: were risk averse.

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Speaker 1: So you know, also, a giant legacy infrastructure with.

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Speaker 2: Great economics, right, a giant legacy infrastructure that had dual

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Speaker 2: revenue streams and that had incredible margins. And you know,

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Speaker 2: it's always hard to compare a dollar invested in the

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Speaker 2: core business that's going to return you know, sixty cents

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Speaker 2: versus a dollar invested in the new business, which you

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Speaker 2: know is your future, but that's going to lose money

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Speaker 2: out of the gate.

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Speaker 1: Right, But classic innovator's dilemma.

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Speaker 2: There you go. So so I think, you know, again,

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Speaker 2: this is sort of the catalyst for my career pivot later.

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Speaker 2: But I think the reality is, how did we do?

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Speaker 2: You know, the streaming businesses ate our lunch, but they

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Speaker 2: had a structural advantage and we were not brave. Huh.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting, by the way, it's easy to eat

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Speaker 1: people's lunch when you're willing to lose billions of dollars

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Speaker 1: a year to establish a brand and capture market.

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Speaker 2: Share, and when capital is largely free or cheap, right.

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Speaker 2: So I think the combination of those things just put

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Speaker 2: us at a disadvantage. And it's interesting to watch now

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Speaker 2: actually because one of the insights, right, the insights that

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Speaker 2: the streamers had were all about the customer experience. They

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Speaker 2: were about you know, ads being you know, interruptive to

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Speaker 2: the content and consumers didn't like that, right, so they

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Speaker 2: went at it and said, we're gonna We're going to

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Speaker 2: design something that's delightful for the consumer. I think what

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Speaker 2: they are now learning is that the economic model that

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Speaker 2: they started with was not a sustainable economic model, meaning

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Speaker 2: they're now introducing ads. The dual revenue stream they're seeing,

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Speaker 2: and the price point at which they were offering call

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Speaker 2: it unlimited content really just more content, was again not sustainable, right, and.

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Speaker 1: They've all raised their prices dramatically. Although I would push

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Speaker 1: back on the phrase delightful because if you've ever gone

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Speaker 1: and this is true for everybody from Netflix to Amazon

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Speaker 1: to HBO, if you've ever tried to surface content, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I like these movies. Show me that, Show me what

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Speaker 1: else I might like. They're not especially good at that.

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Speaker 1: I don't think anyone's been good at that since back

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Speaker 1: in the days of the Netflix of DVD by mail.

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Speaker 1: But everybody is. My wife is like, are you really

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Speaker 1: going to just spend a half hour scrolling through nonsense?

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Speaker 1: It's they don't seem to have figured that out yet,

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Speaker 1: and I'm surprised.

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Speaker 2: I agree with that. I mean, I think the sort

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Speaker 2: of you know, the algorithmic recommendation was sort of the

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Speaker 2: holy grail, and I think it hasn't It hasn't worked

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Speaker 2: as well. Not that good, it's not that good. But again,

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Speaker 2: if you think again, think back to the cable days,

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Speaker 2: what our brands did is our brand's organized content around

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Speaker 2: audiences and interests, right, and so you sort of had

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Speaker 2: an advantage.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: What Netflix is trying to do is serve everybody, and

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Speaker 2: so you have this sea of content and how do

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Speaker 2: you sift through it? So it's a difficult challenge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that recommendation engine that people who liked ABC should

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Speaker 1: also like one, two three. I'm surprised that hasn't gotten better.

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Speaker 1: But last subject before we pivot. So you're at Viacom

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Speaker 1: and you're driving a lot of change. You're spearheading new segments.

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Speaker 1: You're pushing into retail, digital gaming, consumer products, even broadway shows,

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Speaker 1: things like that theme parks video on demand. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to assume you don't think that you thought that was

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Speaker 1: necessary but not sufficient to fight off the big streamers.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that wasn't about fighting off the streamers

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Speaker 2: so much as about expanding the business. If you think

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Speaker 2: about really the kids intellectual property. More so, when I

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Speaker 2: joined Nickelodeon. It was really about joining a kid's brand

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Speaker 2: because I understood the power from my experience at Disney

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Speaker 2: of kids love and passion for characters and stories and

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Speaker 2: how you could deepen their engagement with your brand through

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Speaker 2: products and experiences. And so one of the reasons I

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Speaker 2: went to nickelode was really on that thesis, which was

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Speaker 2: they were a cable channel and really a platform more

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Speaker 2: than anything. Right, they were a platform. We were at

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Speaker 2: that time sort of pre YouTube. We had sixty or

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Speaker 2: seventy percent of all kids entertainment time was spent on Nickelodeon.

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Speaker 2: It was an amazingly powerful platform. And so the question was,

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Speaker 2: you have their attention, you're building these characters and stories

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Speaker 2: they love, how do you take that love and immerse

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Speaker 2: them more deeply in your brand? And those characters, from

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Speaker 2: SpongeBob to Dora the Explorer to the teenage mutant Ninja Turtles, right,

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Speaker 2: these were the great brands of my tenure there, and

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Speaker 2: so so that's what we did. We said, Okay, you know,

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Speaker 2: look at Disney, right, they have theme parks, they have hotels,

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Speaker 2: they have toys and t shirts, et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: and all of that was opportunity. I think that was

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Speaker 2: less so an opportunity in the in the adult targeted brands. Right, adults,

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Speaker 2: don't you know when they fall in love with a

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Speaker 2: character a story like there's only so much Jersey Shore

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Speaker 2: you want to wear on your T shirt? Right?

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Speaker 1: To say the very least, we discussed Nickelodeon's entrance into

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Speaker 1: gamings and products and other things. How did you come

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Speaker 1: away from that experience? Was it just about maximizing revenue

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Speaker 1: or was it really about building out the brand?

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Speaker 2: I think for me, it was about building out the brand,

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Speaker 2: and it was also about scaling and optimizing an operation.

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Speaker 1: So I just picture a big boardroom when you're going

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Speaker 1: in to make the pitch. Hey, we have to go

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Speaker 1: beyond just doing shows for kids. There's a whole universe

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Speaker 1: of ways we can monetize our intellectual property. What was

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Speaker 1: that pitch? Like? Am I remotely close to you know?

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Speaker 1: That stereotypical image? And how difficult was it to get

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Speaker 1: a big, giant and already successful company to embrace a

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Speaker 1: whole new set of revenue streams?

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Speaker 2: So I just shivered when you put the image of

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Speaker 2: the big board room back in my mind? Right? That No,

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Speaker 2: that's accurate for sure. I think, you know, the pitch,

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Speaker 2: the way in which we entered the business. And again

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Speaker 2: back to my comment earlier that you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: think we were brave. We were. We licensed the content

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Speaker 2: so it didn't require an enormous investment, right, So we

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Speaker 2: would work with toy companies, We worked with a hotel business,

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Speaker 2: We worked with cruise ships and basically len them our

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Speaker 2: characters in exchange for revenue. So there was a really

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Speaker 2: a lot of scrutiny around kind of the brand impact

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Speaker 2: and the brand risk potential, thinking about the downside of

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Speaker 2: doing some of that, right, Right, what if a kid

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Speaker 2: gets hurt with a toy? You know that kind of thing, right, So,

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Speaker 2: so I think we put we we thought about that

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Speaker 2: quite a bit, and there were products and services we

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Speaker 2: were unwilling like people would pitch us things like a

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Speaker 2: kid's credit card, right, and encouraging kids to go into

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Speaker 2: debt was not exactly part of the brand plan, right.

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Speaker 1: It's it's great because they are not eighteen, so they

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Speaker 1: could walk away from the debt, right or did their

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Speaker 1: parents have to coast?

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Speaker 2: I think the what's good for kids is good for

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Speaker 2: business really prevailed on that one. So in any event,

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Speaker 2: we considered all sorts of things and people would pitch us.

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Speaker 1: So I SpongeBob, bow and Arrow didn't didn't, it didn't.

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Speaker 2: It didn't make the cut now, not at all. But

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Speaker 2: I will say that we did have a few times

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Speaker 2: when we had some sort of braver ideas around, you know,

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Speaker 2: investing more deeply in some of these segments, and those

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Speaker 2: did require pitches you know, exactly as you exactly as

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Speaker 2: you say, and we ultimately didn't decide to go forward

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Speaker 2: with bigger investments, right, buying a part of a theme park,

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Speaker 2: you know, franchise, for example. So we never we never

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Speaker 2: made that move. Other companies made other decisions there, right NBC, Universal, right,

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Speaker 2: Right Disney, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting to see that the more successful a company is,

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Speaker 1: the more risk averse they tend to be. They don't

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Speaker 1: want to you know, don't kill the goose that lays

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Speaker 1: the golden eggs.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's inevitable.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: You're also your public company, You're living quarter to quarter,

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Speaker 2: and the considerations are.

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Speaker 1: Different, to say the very least. So let's talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about media as so different than finance. But

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Speaker 1: really does it all come down to these are consumer brands.

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Speaker 1: And if you can build a brand and show its

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Speaker 1: value proposition and present it in a smart way to

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Speaker 1: an audience, it doesn't matter whether it's digital investing or

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Speaker 1: kids programming. Branding is branding.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think from a branding and marketing standpoint, yes,

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Speaker 2: I do think it translates incredibly well. And I think

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Speaker 2: ultimately your brand needs to meet a need or solve

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Speaker 2: a pain point for a consumer, right, and so it

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Speaker 2: all starts with the consumer and the consumer research. And

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Speaker 2: that was something that we were incredibly good at at

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Speaker 2: Viacom with all of these really really targeted niche brands.

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Speaker 2: We really invested a lot in our research and in

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Speaker 2: understanding that consumer. So I think that translates incredibly well.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about what that process is like,

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Speaker 1: because you always picture a bunch of people in a

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Speaker 1: room with the two way mirror and asked showing them

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Speaker 1: clips or showing them toys. What was the consumer research

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Speaker 1: like at Viacom?

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Speaker 2: So, I mean there's so many levels, you know, both

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Speaker 2: quantitative and qualitative. So there were a lot of focus groups,

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of instant feedback in the form

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Speaker 2: of ratings and analysis sort of you know, post facto

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Speaker 2: right after you air the programming. There was pilot testing.

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Speaker 2: I mean we would sit with kids and show them

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Speaker 2: pictures of characters, and you know, they would comment at

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Speaker 2: every step of the way. We were basically bringing things

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Speaker 2: to kids and watching them react. Do they laugh, you know,

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Speaker 2: do they hug the toy? You know they are they

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Speaker 2: drawn into the character. So we tested storylines, we tested characters,

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Speaker 2: and then that was sort of early days in content.

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Speaker 2: We did less. I think now when you think about

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Speaker 2: digital testing and you think about sort of a b

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Speaker 2: testing messages, the ability to do that really was transformed

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Speaker 2: over time as we started to build a digital footprint.

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Speaker 2: But again, all of this was in service of asking

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Speaker 2: the right questions of your consumer and getting to them

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Speaker 2: in kind of different ways and then triangulating where to next.

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Speaker 2: And then we had to take these brands, of course,

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Speaker 2: and move them off of television, not just into toys,

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Speaker 2: but building a digital footprint was sort of the next

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Speaker 2: you know, the next act and you realize and there

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Speaker 2: was a tension in that too, right because there was

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Speaker 2: sort of are you giving away your content for free

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Speaker 2: or are you immersing your audience in the content and

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Speaker 2: understanding each of these platforms was different, and so I

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Speaker 2: think all of that really translates as you build a brand.

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Speaker 2: You you have to think about what platforms are you

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Speaker 2: on and what's the purpose of being in those you

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Speaker 2: know on those platforms.

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Speaker 1: So really, really really interesting how different is children's programming

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Speaker 1: when you're doing that sort of research to adults, Because

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Speaker 1: there are so many infamous stories about shows testing poorly

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Speaker 1: and hanging on and that Seinfeld comes to mind to

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Speaker 1: that really poorly goes on to become one of the

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Speaker 1: most popular shows of all time, and things like Raiders

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Speaker 1: of the Lost Arc couldn't get couldn't get made, or

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Speaker 1: Star Wars had trouble finding a studio that nobody liked

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Speaker 1: the tests of it. Is it different with kids? Are

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Speaker 1: they more unguarded and immediate? And then how do you

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Speaker 1: figure out how to apply that when you're looking at

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Speaker 1: BEET or Comedy Central or even MTV, which is sort

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Speaker 1: of in between.

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Speaker 2: Age Wise, we thought of everything as an input, right,

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Speaker 2: and so I think you have to take everything with

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Speaker 2: a grain of salt in the sense that let's say

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Speaker 2: you're doing, you know, three or four focus groups, You've

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Speaker 2: got ten or so people in each of those focus groups,

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Speaker 2: you're trying to pull themes and insights. Sometimes one loud

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Speaker 2: person in the focus group can impact everybody else, so

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Speaker 2: you're watching for that. I think in kids, what you're

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Speaker 2: really looking for is you're just looking for sparks. And

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Speaker 2: sometimes their physical reaction is as much as they're Sometimes

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Speaker 2: they don't have the vocabulary we had school television, right,

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Speaker 2: Sometimes they don't have the vocabulary to articulate in the

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Speaker 2: way that adults do. You know, I didn't like that character,

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Speaker 2: he was mean or whatever, right, but you could just

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Speaker 2: see them shiver or you could see them smile or right.

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Speaker 1: So authentic and organic. You don't have to worry. The

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Speaker 1: words don't matter.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and and some stuff is again we do

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Speaker 2: quantitative testing. Qualitative testing. Sometimes you would do dial testing

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Speaker 2: right during you'd air an episode and you'd see, like,

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Speaker 2: what are the places where they either laugh or turn

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Speaker 2: up the dial or down the dial. So all sorts

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Speaker 2: of different tactics and methods, but it's art and science.

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Speaker 2: I think that's you know, the great creators have an

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Speaker 2: instinct and it can't just be about you know, what

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Speaker 2: happened in that focus group.

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Speaker 1: So now let's pivot to thinking about digital investing platforms

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Speaker 1: and betterment. How transferable are these skills when you're looking

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Speaker 1: into what does an online investor really want?

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Speaker 2: So I think there are transferable skills, and then there

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Speaker 2: are there's a I had to learn. Right, So in

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Speaker 2: terms of transferable skills, you know, we were talking earlier

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Speaker 2: about branding and marketing, right, I think that media is

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Speaker 2: particularly excellent at that, right, And we had not just

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Speaker 2: a house of brands in terms of Nickelodeon and MTV

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Speaker 2: and Comedy Central, but then each of our intellectual properties,

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Speaker 2: each of our shows was effectively a brand, right you

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Speaker 2: had to launch it, and you needed to have a

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Speaker 2: brand plan. So SpongeBob had, and I'm sure has today

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Speaker 2: a ten or fifteen year brand plan at all times.

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Speaker 1: Fifteen years for SpongeBob, out ahead, out ahead, like let's

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Speaker 1: plan on these kids who will be born in a decade.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Wow's right. You're thinking about movies, you're thinking

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Speaker 2: about television series, you're thinking about how to you know,

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Speaker 2: how to how to keep the excitement alive themes. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: so all of that discipline is I think an incredibly

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Speaker 2: good learning ground that then can apply to any brand building.

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Speaker 2: I think similarly, as we were talking about all the platforms, right,

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Speaker 2: the idea of how do you expose your brand? Where

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Speaker 2: do you expose your brand? So all of that I

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Speaker 2: think I think works incredibly well regardless of industry. Operational

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Speaker 2: excellence is something that in any business, right, you need

433
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 2: to figure out, which comes down to setting, you know,

434
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 2: setting the rules and the parameters, and what do you

435
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: measure right? And how important is efficiency relative to growth?

436
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 1: Right?

437
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 2: These are all concepts that travel across businesses. And then

438
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: I think people management and organizational design is a really

439
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 2: important part of any business, right is how do you

440
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 2: build a team that works well together? And how do

441
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 2: you put sort of the right structure around that team

442
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 2: and the right organizational design. And I had a lot

443
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 2: of learning there because you know, we reorganized every i

444
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 2: don't know, twelve or eighteen months over my twenty years

445
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: at Viacom. So I think that all of that is

446
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: is transferable.

447
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 1: Huh, really really intriguing. So let's talk a little bit

448
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: about eight hundred thousand customers. That's a lot of customers, yes,

449
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: it is. What is it like trying to stay on

450
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: top of all of that? That seems like that's an

451
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: immense number of users.

452
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 2: Well, we've been at it a long time, so you

453
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: know when did Betterment launch. Betterment launched in twenty ten,

454
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: So thirteen years strong.

455
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: Seems I mean, my farm is ten years old and

456
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: it went by like that. Thirteen years seems not, you know, not,

457
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 1: you guys are relatively new, not as new as we are,

458
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 1: but still relatively young, right, Sure.

459
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: I mean in the if you think about the arc

460
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 2: of the wealth management business, sure we're relatively young. But

461
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: I think when you consider the digital wealth management space,

462
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 2: we were early and I'm one of the ogs, if

463
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: you will. Sure, but those eight hundred thousand customers actually

464
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 2: are across three lines of business. So we are best

465
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 2: known for our what was once called a robo advisor.

466
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 2: I like to think of it as a digital wealth

467
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: management platform.

468
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: I hate the name robo advisor.

469
00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: I agree with you.

470
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: It's not a robot and it's not there to provide advice.

471
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: It's a platform that you build on top of. That's

472
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: at least that's how I think of it.

473
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: But well, I think that in the I think that's

474
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 2: exactly right. I also think that in the early days,

475
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 2: it was a simpler idea, right, which was fulfilling a

476
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: simple promise of low cost and automation and bringing access

477
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: to investors who previously didn't have access to great advice,

478
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: bringing sort of the simplest and clearest advice to that group,

479
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: and therefore expanding access. Now, what we're learning and we'll

480
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 2: get it, we'll get into sort of the what's happened

481
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: over the last decade is that that's really only the beginning.

482
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: And so for us, I think we think of sort

483
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: of the robo advisor as the first act. And we

484
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: then took that platform and thought long and hard about

485
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 2: what do the clients really need and some of them

486
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 2: want human advice for example. Right, the technology is not

487
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 2: sufficient unto itself, right, so we extended that platform to

488
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 2: the advisor community, to our right. So the idea there

489
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: was we have great tools, great technology that can scale

490
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: and that can help advisors scale their practices. We don't

491
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 2: need to compete with advisors. We can actually enable their success.

492
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: So that was the next business line, and then we

493
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 2: added a third business line, which is a four oh

494
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 2: one K business for small and medium sized businesses. And

495
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: so that is interesting because in all three business lines

496
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 2: they're very different. The customer segments are very different. But

497
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: what they share is that the big guys and the

498
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: established incumbents all sort of enterprise incredibly well and serve

499
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: wealthy people incredibly well. And in all three instances we

500
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 2: are expanding access through the use of technology.

501
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 1: So you mentioned low cost and automation, and I wanted

502
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: to circle back to that because the automation is what

503
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: enables low cost in fact, so for again good what

504
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: we do with liftoff is we have betterment power our

505
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: day digital platform, but we attach a live human advisor

506
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: to that, and that wouldn't be financially viable if you're

507
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: doing everything the way a traditional ria does it, because

508
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: that's pricy. There's a lot of people, there's a lot

509
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: of work, there's a lot of costs. You guys on

510
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: the back end plugged into this make it very, very

511
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: cost efficient so that the minimums go away. Forget five

512
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: million or one million, there's no minimum. You want to

513
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: open account with ten thousand dollars, you can and a

514
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: person can talk to you about it. But the process

515
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: of opening the account, funding it, onboarding it, all the

516
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: labor intensive human activities that a ten million dollar client

517
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: want someone holding their hands. You guys have come up

518
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: with a really really great set of technologies to automate that.

519
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: Thank you. That's exactly right. I couldn't have said it

520
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 2: better myself.

521
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: So what made you early on? Some of your competitors

522
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: thought the RIN industry was very much there competitors, how

523
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: did you guys look at And I know some of

524
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: this predates your your tenure, but what made Bennerman say, hey,

525
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: this is a part of the industry that we shouldn't ignore.

526
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 2: It does predate me. I think that's right. So I've

527
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: been in the CEO seat for three years. So John Stein,

528
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 2: our founder, he really saw around corners, right, And I think,

529
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: you know, what was so great about him, and I

530
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: think tends to be true of founders in general, is

531
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 2: they're always innovating. They're always thinking about the next idea.

532
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: And I think there were sort of two motivations for him.

533
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: You know, One was, well, wait a minute, why don't

534
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: the ri as, Why don't the human advisors like us?

535
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: Why do they see us as a threat? And as

536
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: he started to dig in, he said, well, wait a minute,

537
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: we don't have to be a threat. And this is

538
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: another this is another way to meet customers where they

539
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: are right, because some customers you know, young digital savvy,

540
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: you know, not a huge amount of assets yet may

541
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: be okay with a completely digital solution. But what he

542
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: started to understand and through you know, talking to customers,

543
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: was that as customers became more sophisticated and had life events, right,

544
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 2: got married, bought a home, their needs became more complex

545
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: and they wanted to talk to someone. And so understanding that,

546
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: he understood that there were limitations sort of to the

547
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: to the reach that you could have if you were

548
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: only serving customers directly. And so rather than say, you know,

549
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: we're anti human interaction, we said, he said, let's embrace that,

550
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: and let's understand that technology plus humans is better. So

551
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: how can we be great technology and great service? And

552
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: the way to do that was through the RIA community.

553
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: But you're right that in the early days it wasn't

554
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: so much that we saw the rias as our competitors.

555
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: It's that they saw us as a competitor, right.

556
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: And so one of your competitors, who I won't mention

557
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: by name, was very adversarial with the RIA community. They

558
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: have you know, a fraction of your ass but they

559
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: also aren't really working with advisors recognizing the different market

560
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: segments seem to have been a big win for you guys.

561
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that it's a mistake to

562
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: not embrace the whole market, right, and to not recognize that, Look,

563
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: there are customers who feel comfortable. I've had a financial

564
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 2: advisor myself personally for twenty years, right, and that provides,

565
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: you know, peace of mind, and it provides and it's

566
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: a relationship, right, This is a relationship. Technology is never

567
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: going to replace a relationship. Technology can enhance the service

568
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: that that relationship provider can give you, but it's never

569
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: going to replace it. And I think recognizing that is

570
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 2: one of the things that differentiates us as a brand.

571
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. So you mentioned John Stein. You come in

572
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: to CEO of Betterment following a founder. That's always a

573
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: tough spot. Tell us a little bit what that was like.

574
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny. So I came from such a different world, right,

575
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 2: I came from the corporate world, and I didn't know

576
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: from founders, and so I had no expectation. And in

577
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: my experience, changes of leadership were somewhat commonplace. Right. Oh,

578
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: you know, when you're at a big company, things change

579
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: and so and so I met John through a actually

580
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 2: a business school classmate of mine. Knew a board member

581
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: at Betterment, which was kind of my path to Betterment,

582
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: and so I first met this board member and she

583
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 2: introduced me to John, and I think he was at

584
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: a moment in his career where he was thinking, look,

585
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: I built this thing, and I'm sort of I'm getting antsy,

586
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: I'm kind of ready for the next and I want

587
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: this to be a big business to scale, whether it

588
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 2: goes public or whatever. The next act of this business is.

589
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 2: It's an act that I have not had experience in.

590
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: And he was self aware enough to understand that now

591
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: maybe was the time if Betterment was going to kind

592
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 2: of take the next step, maybe there was a different

593
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 2: kind of leadership that could help do that. He was

594
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: meeting candidates and we met and we got along incredibly well.

595
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: He's still on the board, so he's a sounding board

596
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: for things, but we brought really different skills to the party. Right.

597
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: He was not a marketer and a brand builder, and

598
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: I think in the early days there was a thought

599
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: here that sort of if you build it, they will come,

600
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: and this idea that like, you know, a product led

601
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: product led growth was the sort of holy grail, right,

602
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: And I think that in the early days. That was

603
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 2: a good theory. I think the reality is what John

604
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: and others who sort of innovated around his time did

605
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: is they pushed the whole industry to embrace technology, maybe

606
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: faster than they would have right out of fear, right,

607
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: not unlike my experience in the media business, right, which

608
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,239
Speaker 2: was you can't ignore. You can't put blinders on and

609
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: ignore streaming. You got to jump in.

610
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: It's so funny you say that, because it's streaming and media.

611
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: It's Tesla and the rest of the auto industry and evs,

612
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: it's Amazon forcing everybody to have some online line retail.

613
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: A technological disruptor comes in, and it's not just that

614
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: one company. The entire industry has to take notice and say,

615
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: either we adapt or we get left behind. That's right,

616
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: and that's really really substantial. So from where you sit,

617
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: coming from a media background, is it safe to say

618
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: leadership is leadership. It doesn't matter what the product is

619
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: that you're selling, you're leading people.

620
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: I think so. I mean, I think that there's certainly

621
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: you need some experts in the mix. Right. I'm not

622
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: going to say that, you know, no industry experience needed here, right,

623
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: But you can do that within the context of a

624
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: balanced team. And so I think, you know, I happened

625
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: to I happen to have a fantastic team. And the

626
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: team is really made up of a bunch of folks

627
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: who were here before I was and are really deep

628
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: experts in the space, and then we complemented them with

629
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: a handful four or five new folks who I brought

630
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: from the outside, who had a fresh perspective and maybe

631
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: at a different skill set.

632
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: Huh. Really intriguing. So let's talk a little bit about

633
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: the history of the digital investment platforms. These more or

634
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: less launched after the financial crisis kind of twenty tens

635
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: or so. There were some great expectations when some of

636
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: the initial companies launched. Many of your competitors have not

637
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: lived up to those lofty expectations. How do you look

638
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: at the field and say, why have some of these

639
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: companies just not gotten it done? So?

640
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: I think in general, there was a sort of a

641
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: fear slash expectation right that digital was going to take

642
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 2: over the business, right, and so that obviously had big

643
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: dollar signs in people's eyes.

644
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: It was a gold rush for a while. People spent

645
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: a lot of money buying digital platforms. Many of those

646
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: purchases did not work out, but it was pretty It

647
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: looked like, hey, these guys would come and eat on lunch.

648
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: Right, And I think, look, that's not unlike the sort

649
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: of digital boom and bust in every industry, right, which

650
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: is think about Amazon. Right, Amazon won, but there was

651
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: there there was a lot of roadkill by the side

652
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: of the road, right, whether it was e Toys or

653
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: you know to right to remember just a brand name, right,

654
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: there were a whole number of these firms.

655
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: Pets dot Com is the one that sticks out to me.

656
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: Right, like they all emerged, they all I mean Amazon

657
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: was books, right, It wasn't the everything store, it was books.

658
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 2: And I think you know, they they won because they

659
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 2: were excellent, right, and they delivered, they had They were

660
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: maniacal about the consumer, right, and they and they just

661
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 2: continued to build off of super serving that consumer.

662
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 1: And regardless of profit, they were will want to post

663
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: bone joy in order to do.

664
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 2: The reserve, right because they knew that referrals and customers

665
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: who loved them was the holy grail, right, And so

666
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: you know, they won. So I think the same can

667
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: be said in any industry, right, I mean, Netflix has

668
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: is is the clear leader in the streaming space, and

669
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 2: I think, you know, I intend for Betterment to be

670
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 2: the clear leader in the digital wealth management space.

671
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: So what does Betterment have to do to distinguish itself

672
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: from the rest of the pack. And the rest of

673
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: the pack includes Vanguard as well as a bunch of

674
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: other much smaller clean sheet startups in the space.

675
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 2: So my aspiration is sort of what Amazon did for Walmart, right,

676
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: which is it pushed them to be better, but ultimately

677
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: there's room for both. I think that is very true

678
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: in the wealth management space as well. So I think,

679
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: you know, Schwab and Fidelity and Vanguard, like those are

680
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: the great brands. Those are my parents' brands.

681
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: Right, and they all have their own in house digital platform.

682
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: That's right because they knew that that has to be

683
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: part of the mix. And I think similarly, right if

684
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: I think about those as brands, I think the technology

685
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 2: is a start, but I think building a brand that

686
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: understands the customer segment you serve is going to be

687
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 2: critically important in terms of who wins and who loses.

688
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: And so what I aspire to for Betterment is that

689
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: we should become the millennial and gen Z Wealth Management

690
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: brand the way Schwab or Fidelity serves our parents.

691
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: Huh. That's intriguing. So when you're doing the sort of

692
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: customer analysis that you did back at Viacom at Betterment,

693
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: what are you finding from both your existing clients and

694
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: people who are potential clients. What is it that the

695
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: consumer is looking for in advice from a digital platform.

696
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: So I think first and foremost, they are looking for

697
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 2: great technology and great service.

698
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: So when you say great technology, I think of ease

699
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: of use, user interface, those sorts of things.

700
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: That's exactly right, that's exactly right. And they've grown up

701
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: right with a phone in their hand, so to speak, right,

702
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 2: and so I think what worked for customers a generation

703
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: to go? I think the expectations are just raised, right,

704
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: And so in terms of what technology can deliver, it

705
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 2: has to be on mobile. Not just ease of use,

706
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: but ease of use on mobile. I want to be

707
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 2: able to do everything on my phone. Don't make me

708
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 2: sit down at the computer, for example, right, And that's

709
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: actually not the way we were born. Right a decade ago,

710
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: these digital platforms were online as opposed to digital, and

711
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: we've moved the word online to digital because really we

712
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 2: need to be mobile first, right, And I think I

713
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 2: wouldn't say that Betterment was sort of first in its

714
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 2: class on recognizing the power of mobile in this space

715
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: because when we were when we originated the brand and

716
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 2: the business, we thought, this is a considered purchase, and

717
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 2: as a considered purchase, people are going to sit down

718
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 2: at their desktop and they're going to do their research.

719
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 2: And that still is true for a lot of folks

720
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: when they sign up. But once you have this your

721
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: wealth somewhere, you want to be able to check it

722
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: and you want to be able to check it wherever

723
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: you are, you know, in the bathroom, online wherever you are,

724
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: and that's on your phone. And so that's been a

725
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: huge push, you know, during my tenure in the last

726
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: couple of years, it's saying we need to think mobile first.

727
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: So that's just an example of sort of usability and

728
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: where you need to be and perhaps obvious but critical.

729
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 1: All right, So you started with an online platform, you

730
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: go to mobile. If we're looking at the next great technology,

731
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: it's almost a cliche to say AI is going to

732
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: change all these things. How does a digital online investment

733
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: platform use AI to make itself and its products more

734
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 1: desirable to its clients.

735
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 2: So AI think of it as supercharging everything we do. Right,

736
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 2: So it's causing us really to re litigate every process

737
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 2: we have and say can we do it better, stronger, faster,

738
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 2: and how can technology enable that? So we're starting really

739
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 2: in the back office, and that's both internal and customer facing.

740
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 2: So think about, you know, writing first drafts of marketing pieces, right,

741
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: get you know, putting some inputs, giving an assignment to

742
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 2: the AI and letting them draft something that you can

743
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 2: then use as a jumping off point. Think about customer

744
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 2: that's just an example. Think about customer service. Not necessarily

745
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 2: I think a chatbot can answer simple questions, but also

746
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 2: you can have AI develop more sophisticated answers that then

747
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 2: the human service operator can translate for the consumer. Right,

748
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 2: So speeding up every one of those interactions. Think about

749
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: a brand new engineer joining the team who doesn't know,

750
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: you know, anything about betterment and needs to find, you know,

751
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 2: find his or her way. You know, we have an

752
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 2: opportunity to get them up to speed faster, right because

753
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: there is just more information easily accessible at their at

754
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: their fingertips. So what I don't see AI doing or

755
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: at least not yet is replacing the fiduciary role that

756
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: we play, right, which is we have a responsibility to

757
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: our customers that is highly regulated and that requires that

758
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 2: we act in their best interest. And there still is

759
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: a lot in the technology where there's what they call hallucination,

760
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 2: right are they giving good advice? So so we think

761
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 2: that the technology is an enabler. Enabler but not so

762
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 2: much a replacement.

763
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: For so I love the term hallucination. You never worked

764
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: at Roku and you never worked at ubs. But when

765
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,240
Speaker 1: I'm done with my research, I'll then run it through

766
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: CHATCHBT four and perplexity, which are one as clawed and

767
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: one as the I forgot the other driver, just to

768
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: see what comes up and oh I missed? How did

769
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 1: I miss Roku? How did I miss Ubs? Turns out

770
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: I didn't. They were wrong and hallucinating, which is why

771
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: you have to have a human double check it. But

772
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: it still has this reach and depth that it's so

773
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: quick and so easy it really creates, you know, a

774
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: first draft is really a good way to think about it,

775
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: as long as you're fact checking it and where that

776
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: it's often wrong.

777
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: That's right, and you have to have guardrails, right, And

778
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: so I think we're being very thoughtful in how we

779
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 2: deploy AI. But I think we would be foolish not

780
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 2: to be embracing the technology because you know, if we

781
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: can speed everything up we do by ten percent or

782
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: fifteen percent using the technology, then you know, better, stronger.

783
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: Faster, right, And we usually measure productivity gains in you know,

784
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: single decimal points. Ten percent or fifteen percent is just immense.

785
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: That's that's a game changing improvement.

786
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean you talk about do more with less, right,

787
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: I mean this is the greatest example. Yeah.

788
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So before we get to a favorite questions, I

789
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: have a curveball question to throw at you. You are

790
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: currently a board member for the Lucius and Littower Foundation,

791
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: as well as Funko and Catalyite. Tell us a little

792
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 1: bit about those organizations.

793
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 2: Sure, So I'll start with Lucia's Litower is a foundation

794
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: and we support access to opportunity and we support a

795
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 2: series of Jewish causes. There was a man named Lucius

796
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: Littower and he passed away without any airs, and so

797
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: we have a group of people who are entrusted to

798
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: carry on his legacy. So that's been a great one

799
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: for more than ten years. I've been doing that. Funko Inc.

800
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: Is a pop culture company. It's a public company. You

801
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: may have heard of Funko pop which are like little

802
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: sort of plastic characters. That's the signature item we sell.

803
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: But really, when you think about fandom, it's a fan company.

804
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 2: And that's been again a lot of fun. That's been

805
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 2: my first public company board. And then Catalyite is a

806
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 2: more recent board that I joined, and that is a

807
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: company that sits actually at the intersection of AI and

808
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 2: diversity and inclusion, and it's about creating pathways for underrepresented

809
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 2: groups who don't have four year college degrees into higher

810
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: earning jobs, using AI to understand aptitude and likelihood of success.

811
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 2: And it's cool company.

812
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: It sounds really interesting, all right, So we only have

813
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: you for a few more minutes. Let's jump to our

814
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: favorite questions that we ask all of our guests, starting

815
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: with you're the perfect person to ask this question. What

816
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: are you streaming these days? Tell us about what you're

817
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: watching on Netflix or Amazon or Hulu or Disney or

818
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: Paramount Plus or anything you might be streaming.

819
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 2: So I binge constantly. The new season of Slow Horses

820
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: Season three, right season three. That that's one that that

821
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 2: I've recently streamed.

822
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting shows.

823
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 2: It's a great show.

824
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: That's I love it.

825
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 2: That's on Apple Yep. I loved Also on Apple, I

826
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 2: loved Lessons in Chemistry, which I read.

827
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: The book, really gotten to it.

828
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 2: That's a good one. I really liked it. But I

829
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: also read the book. So so those are two of

830
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 2: my I love them. Oh, I just watched The Pacific,

831
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: which is an old which is a spin off of

832
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: Band of Brothers. HBO must have recently sold a bunch

833
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 2: of stuff to Netflix, so it surfaced in my algorithm,

834
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 2: and it was a spinoff of Band of Brothers and

835
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,439
Speaker 2: it was about it's about World War Two.

836
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: Didn't Band of Brothers end up there also?

837
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 2: It did? It did, But I had seen that, and

838
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 2: I had never heard of The Pacific, but it surfaced

839
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 2: and I watched that. It was about the Pacific theater

840
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: during World War Two.

841
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: Really interesting since you're mentioning wartime shows, have you seen

842
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: all the light? You cannot see?

843
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 2: So not only have I seen it, but it's one

844
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: of my favorite books.

845
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 1: Fantastic really and they did a great job.

846
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 2: They did.

847
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,479
Speaker 1: They did. It's just what is it six episode something

848
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: like that. I wanted it to be really Yeah, it

849
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: was real. It was one of those things you're when

850
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 1: you're said when a show ends, it's like, that's how

851
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: you know it's a really good uh, a really good show.

852
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: Tell us about your early mentors who helped shape your career.

853
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 2: My early mentors were were really my bosses. So I

854
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 2: worked early on for a guy at Disney named Peter

855
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: Murphy who was a great mentor to me. And then

856
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: a woman named Dan Sarnoff who became ultimately was running

857
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: the Warner Brothers studio. She she was my first job

858
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 2: out of business school. And then a fellow who was

859
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 2: the COO at Nickelodeon before I was, named Jeff Dunn,

860
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 2: who went on to run Sesame Workshop. Those were probably

861
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: my three.

862
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: Let's talk about books. What are some of your favorites.

863
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: What are you reading right now? So?

864
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 2: I love historical fiction and I love a good beach read.

865
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: So right now I am reading the Elon Musk biography,

866
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 2: and I'm also reading Demon Copper Demon Copperhead, which is

867
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 2: a Barbara Kinsolver, which is fantastic.

868
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: Demon Copperhead. What sort of book is that?

869
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: It's about a little boy who grows up in foster care.

870
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: And I think it's going to be about the opioids crisis,

871
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: but I haven't gotten to that. I haven't gotten to

872
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: that part.

873
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know we mentioned innovator's dilemma earlier. Did you

874
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: ever read loon Shots?

875
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 2: I did not, so.

876
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: By a professor. I'm drawing a blank on his name

877
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: at the moment. But it's how every company is really

878
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: two companies. One is that small startup and the other

879
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: is the company that has its own ongoing revenue source.

880
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 1: And how do you balance the need to not eat

881
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: your seed corn but at the same time take occasional

882
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: moon shots. And it's a challenge for a lot of companies.

883
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: Apple is an example of a company that is willing

884
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 1: to cannibalize our own products in order to stay ahead

885
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,439
Speaker 1: of the competent. Really, really just fascinating, and I thought

886
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: of it because of what you had said earlier. Big

887
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: companies tend not to do these moonshots. The name of

888
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: the book is Loonshots. I'm sure it'll pop into my

889
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: head later. Our last two questions, what sort of advice

890
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: would you give to a recent college grad interested in

891
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: a career in either media or investment, So.

892
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 2: I always think the training, the investment banking training programs

893
00:47:58,239 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 2: aren't a good way to start. They're sort of like

894
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: boot camp for a couple of years where they, you know,

895
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: teach you to understand p and ls and financial modeling,

896
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 2: and I think that's a really transferable skill, so I

897
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 2: think those are fantastic programs. I also think these days,

898
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 2: you know, whether I'm a financial company or a technology

899
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 2: company is sort of a question we ask ourselves every day,

900
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 2: and I think the answer is both. But engineering in

901
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 2: computer science is an incredibly fabulous career these days, and

902
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 2: I think opens a lot of doors. But that appeals to,

903
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 2: you know, a certain segment of the population.

904
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 1: And our final question, what do you know about the

905
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: world of branding, marketing, or technology and investing today? You

906
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: wish you knew twenty five or so years ago when

907
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 1: you were really getting started.

908
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 2: Well the world of investing. I would say I did

909
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: not fully appreciate the power of starting early and the

910
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,479
Speaker 2: power of you know, compounding, you know, save what you can.

911
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: I think I also underappreciated, really until I got to betterment,

912
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: I under appreciated how much costs and taxes can undermine investing.

913
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 2: Returns and so to be to be a cognizant of

914
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 2: those things. And then lastly, I would say take advantage

915
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 2: early on of the of what the government offers in

916
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 2: terms of tax advantaged accounts, because that can be a

917
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 2: real step up. So, whether that's for participating in a

918
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 2: company four oh and k or iras right, these are

919
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 2: all great opportunities for saving.

920
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: Well, well, thank you Sarah for being so generous with

921
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: your time. We have been speaking with Sarah Kirshbaum Levy.

922
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: She is the CEO of Betterment. If you enjoy this conversation, well,

923
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 1: check out any of the previous five hundred we've had

924
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 1: over the past nine years. You can find those at iTunes, Spotify,

925
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: Bloomberg YouTube, wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Sign up

926
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 1: for my daily reading list at rid halts dot com.

927
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: Follow me on Twitter while it's still around at rid

928
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: Halt's follow all of the Bloomberg family of podcasts at

929
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 1: podcast I would be remiss if I did not thank

930
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: the crack staff that puts these conversations together each week.

931
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: My audio engineer is Kaylie Lapara. Anna Luke is my producer.

932
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: Jean Russo is my researcher. Attika of Albrount is my

933
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: project manager. I'm Barry Berheltz. You've been listening to Masters

934
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,399
Speaker 1: in Business on Bloomberg Radio