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Speaker 1: Oh, it's Behind the Bastards, a podcast that is opened

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Speaker 1: in a radically different way of pretty much every week,

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Speaker 1: but usually one that involves me making sounds with my mouth.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand how you're this successful of a podcast. Now,

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Speaker 1: No one does, Garrison, nobody does. But they can't. They

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Speaker 1: can't stop it. They can't, they can't stop the signal.

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Speaker 1: You know. I'm like, I'm like the Rolling Stones of podcasting,

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Speaker 1: the Andrew Tate of podcasting. Thank you, Margaret, thank you

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Speaker 1: for that. That's what everyone's saying for that unalloyed compliment.

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Speaker 1: So we have, we have. We started this episode by

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Speaker 1: talking about Adam vy Shopped and the Bavarian Illuminati UM,

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Speaker 1: which started out as a nerdy kid kind of trying

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Speaker 1: to find a way to smuggle cool books into Bavaria

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Speaker 1: that we're banned um and doing so, he created a

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Speaker 1: fake religion so that rich people would feel like wizards

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Speaker 1: and he could use their money to buy more books,

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Speaker 1: and it ended up with him funding illegal abortions until

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Speaker 1: a lightning strike exposed to society to the cops, and

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Speaker 1: then he had to flee and spend the rest of

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Speaker 1: his life having the equivalent of an extended Twitter argument.

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Speaker 1: This sounds so fake, This sounds like such a fake story.

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Speaker 1: It is. It's both sad and funny, and I've continued

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Speaker 1: my reading on this. One of the troubles here is that,

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Speaker 1: like there's an actual paucity of good historical books about

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Speaker 1: the Illuminati who are not written by cranks. I picked

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Speaker 1: the one of the Charles River editors are not usually

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Speaker 1: my ideal source, but they do a decent job of

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Speaker 1: like summarizing all of the actual facts that are known.

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Speaker 1: I found another book that I have been reading through

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Speaker 1: that is one of the crank books. It's called The Illuminati,

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Speaker 1: The Secret Society That Hijacked the World by Jim mars

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Speaker 1: Um with with two rs. And mars is absolutely a crank.

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Speaker 1: That for an idea of what a cranky is his

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Speaker 1: book on secrets or in the chapters on the Illuminati,

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Speaker 1: part what is Germany? And part two is Zionism. So

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Speaker 1: we're going some good directions in this book that's gonna bridge,

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Speaker 1: but we're gonna have to talk about today. Isn't that? Um?

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Speaker 1: I want to read. There's some wild quotes in here, um,

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Speaker 1: and most of them will not be most relevant until

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Speaker 1: we get later on in here, but I want to

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Speaker 1: read a portion of something that I cannot speak entirely

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Speaker 1: on the veracity of um. But this is a chunk

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Speaker 1: of his book when he's talking about the formation of

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Speaker 1: the Illuminati. In seventeen seventy nine, two years after Bishop's

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Speaker 1: initiation into Freemasonry, he wrote his Wacken Hurdle, suggesting the

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Speaker 1: order be renamed the Society of Bees. The bee connection

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Speaker 1: again demonstrates the close ties to the Illuminati of the

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Speaker 1: Illuminati to Masonry, as the beehive has long been an

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Speaker 1: important Freemason symbol. Today's Masonic lodges were once referred to

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Speaker 1: as hives, and any internal disputes are called swarming. One

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Speaker 1: eighteenth century Masonic ritual stated the beehive teaches us that

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Speaker 1: as we are born into the world rational and intelligent beings,

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Speaker 1: so what we also be industrious ones, and not stand

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Speaker 1: idly by it or gazed with listless indifference on even

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Speaker 1: the meanest of our fellows in a state of distress,

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Speaker 1: if it is in our power to help them without

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Speaker 1: detriment to ourselves or our connections. The symbol of bees

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Speaker 1: also connects to the aforementioned ancient Greek Elucinian mysteries in

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Speaker 1: which honey was thought to be a divine product of

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Speaker 1: the gods. So that's kind of cool. Now, yeah, I am.

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Speaker 1: I'm all for beehive. I like the discussion of arguments

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Speaker 1: within Masonic temples as swarming. Yeah, yeah, it's it's all.

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Speaker 1: So much of this story is extremely twitter, like almost back.

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Speaker 1: It's nice to know that radicals have always been more

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Speaker 1: or less the same kind of people. Nice isn't the

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Speaker 1: word I would use. Yeah, it's it's reassuring. It's a

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Speaker 1: thing that's that's undeniable. Yeah, so that's good stuff. So, um,

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Speaker 1: we should probably get back into the story. When we

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Speaker 1: had left off, we had just been talking about how

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Speaker 1: the conspiracy theory about the Illuminati started up after the

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Speaker 1: French Revolution and kind of merged with existing fears about

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Speaker 1: Masonry in the United States to be part of this

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Speaker 1: big anti Masonic movement. You've got guys like Abigail Adams

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Speaker 1: and even George Washington himself who bought into this conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: And this would be this would be like one of

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Speaker 1: the funny things about Jim or about I don't know

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Speaker 1: whatever Mars's book is that like when he talks about

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Speaker 1: American connections to the Illuminati. He just says that, like

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Speaker 1: we know that. You know, multiple members of the Founding

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Speaker 1: Fathers were aware of the Illuminati, and it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they believe the same shit you did, Like they all

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Speaker 1: added the same conspiracy buddy. Um, so far the bastards

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Speaker 1: is the people who believe in the Illuminati, not the Illuminati. No,

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Speaker 1: the Illuminati are not bastards. Although again, perhaps if you

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Speaker 1: create a fake cult in order to do a good thing,

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Speaker 1: you might wind up causing more problems than you solve.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that maybe a lesson from the Illuminati that we

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Speaker 1: can take into us today. That's true. You know what, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: let the initiates out of the cage. I think maybe

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Speaker 1: we've been we've been going down the wrong the wrong,

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Speaker 1: the wrong road. You couldn't even get that sentence out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah I would. I would never tell you to let

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Speaker 1: the initiates out of the cage. That's where they live now.

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Speaker 1: So overtime, over time, the Illuminati conspiracy theory died out

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Speaker 1: would be the wrong word, but it kind of faded. Um.

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Speaker 1: But America's public obsession with conspiracy theories never quite did,

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Speaker 1: and politicians learned over the decades that' stoking these conspiracy

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Speaker 1: was an easy way to get VOTs. After the Mason's popular,

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Speaker 1: American conspiracy culture pivoted to obsess over the Jesuits and

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Speaker 1: then the Communists, which, despite the fact that they are

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Speaker 1: kind of diametrically opposed and fundamental ways, often got looped

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Speaker 1: in together as like a Jesuit Communist conspiracy. That was

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Speaker 1: a whole big thing in the early half of the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century. And of course every time you would have

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Speaker 1: sort of a new era in American conspiracy culture, the

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Speaker 1: trappings of prior manias would roll forward into each new

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Speaker 1: conspiracy that enraptured the voting public. It's you know, it's syncretism.

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Speaker 1: This is a thing that umberto Echo talks about when

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Speaker 1: he talks about like one of the key attributes of fascism,

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Speaker 1: and I think it is kind of worth noting and

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Speaker 1: a little bit beyond the scope of this episodes, but

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Speaker 1: to talk about how American conspiracy culture has always been

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Speaker 1: proto fascist in many ways and this is the syncretism

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Speaker 1: of it. And we've we've really seen this come to

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Speaker 1: roost with Donald Trump and qwan on and sort of

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Speaker 1: this is why you get a lot of liberals who

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Speaker 1: are very surprised when they see these kind of people

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Speaker 1: who had been sort of formerly crunchy, granola hippie types

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Speaker 1: get into the hardcore right wing king On stuff and

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Speaker 1: it's like that syncretism, baby, That's exactly what Echo was

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Speaker 1: talking about. This. This this also ties into like the

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Speaker 1: idea of like the cultic milieu and how the shared

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Speaker 1: stays were all these types of conspiracies operate, feed off

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Speaker 1: each other and do and do kind of coalesce into

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Speaker 1: this weird like a crypto or quasi fascist politic. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And if you if you want to, if you want

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Speaker 1: to look at this as like I don't know, if

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Speaker 1: you wanted to like diagram this as like a soil

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Speaker 1: or something like that, or sedimentary layers. The base of

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Speaker 1: it all is the Illuminati, right, that is the er

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Speaker 1: conspiracy and American political culture. Um so. Yeah. Meanwhile, the

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Speaker 1: end of the eighteen hundreds in the start of the

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds saw another surge of interest in the occult.

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Speaker 1: It seems like this kind of happens once every century

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Speaker 1: or so, that's been pretty consistent for the last three

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Speaker 1: hundred years something like that. And over in Europe, a

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Speaker 1: pair of wizards resurrected the Illuminati. The founders were tied

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Speaker 1: to the Oto and Alistair Crowley, and the Second Illuminati

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Speaker 1: was never really much more than a side shows. It's

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Speaker 1: primary contribution to kind of occult history in Europe was

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Speaker 1: that in nineteen o two had allied itself with the

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Speaker 1: Order of the Golden Dawn. Now the Golden Dawn had

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Speaker 1: also been founded on shall we say shaky his shaky

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Speaker 1: grounds truth wise, by a Rosicrucian named Wentworth Little, who

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Speaker 1: claimed to have come into the possession of a coded

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Speaker 1: manuscript that led him to a woman named Anna Sprangel

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Speaker 1: in Germany who was in touch with unknown superiors who

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Speaker 1: had taught him about a secret organization behind the secret

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Speaker 1: organization behind the myth of the Rosa Crucians. And you

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Speaker 1: can see shades of kind of what of aishapped was

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Speaker 1: doing with the Illuminati here. I've you know, this organization

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Speaker 1: has a history. It's actually much older than people know.

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Speaker 1: There's this group of unknown folks in addition to me,

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Speaker 1: who are actually running things. Yeah. I want to quote

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Speaker 1: here from our old friend pro cult activist Massimo entrophying

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Speaker 1: again because he saw again, if you're going to write

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Speaker 1: it's detailed history of this ship. You're going to wind

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Speaker 1: up quoting a lot of crikes and weirdos. It's mostly

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Speaker 1: going to be crips and weirdos. This is just a

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Speaker 1: fact of the matter. Westcott claimed to have found Sprangle's address,

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Speaker 1: to have written to her, and to have obtained the

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Speaker 1: authorization of the Unknown Superiors to found an order in

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Speaker 1: England placed under their authority, the Golden Dawn. In spite

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Speaker 1: of the great influence it exerted on art and literature,

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Speaker 1: the Golden Dawn rested on a mystification. There was no

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Speaker 1: Anna Sprangele and Westcott had simply invented the whole story.

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Speaker 1: It was Alister Crowley who had been initiated into the

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Speaker 1: Golden Dawn in eighteen ninety eight and had immediately engaged

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Speaker 1: in trying to overthrow its leaders, who in nineteen hundred

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Speaker 1: revealed the deception. Crowley is a very complicated surist, and

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Speaker 1: he I think in a lot ways qualifies as a

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Speaker 1: bastard um. But one of the cool things that he

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Speaker 1: did was completely overthrow every magical community that he that

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Speaker 1: he went into. Into your Wizard Club, he's going to

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Speaker 1: take over. He will take over your Wizard Club stop

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Speaker 1: him and make you admit that you made the whole

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Speaker 1: thing up. It's yes, and then have a lot of

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Speaker 1: gay sex in the desert. So you know, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: am certainly the least knowledge about knowledgeable about Crowley in

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Speaker 1: our organization. But the thing that I always took from

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Speaker 1: readings about him is that he was able to do

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Speaker 1: that in all these organizations because he had He's got

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Speaker 1: some jock energy to him. Yes that like most wizards,

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Speaker 1: he just kind of had that confidence to let him

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Speaker 1: bully his way. Is this kind of like when punks

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Speaker 1: go to like nerd conventions, We're just in charge because

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Speaker 1: I actually have social skills, and we like, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: gonna this is gonna be very controversial on the subbreddit.

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Speaker 1: Margaret Kiljoy just got canceled. Yeah, Crawley was really the

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Speaker 1: first punk, is what you're trying to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a stand and say that I absolutely no,

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Speaker 1: I actually don't know that much somewhere underground and the

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Speaker 1: Vault Vault of the Golden Dawn is the very first

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Speaker 1: battle jacket into it. Yeah, But also, but you keep

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Speaker 1: talking about this thing where it's like it seems like

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Speaker 1: the cultists are the okay ones, and the conspiracy theorists

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Speaker 1: are the ones who do the Nazis shit. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean because these these guys, the people forming this new

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Speaker 1: order of I mean the people who kind of form

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Speaker 1: this new Illuminati and marry it to the golden dawn.

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Speaker 1: I haven't come across any evidence that they're bastards like

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Speaker 1: they were there were people who wanted to dress up

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Speaker 1: and do magic like. There's nothing harmful about what they're

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Speaker 1: doing here. Um, it's just it's not wildly influential. Ingle,

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Speaker 1: who was one of the people who winds up in

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Speaker 1: charge of this new Illuminati, funds it. I found this

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Speaker 1: interesting by writing a series of like short stories for

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Speaker 1: dime novels under a shitload of different names. He kind

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Speaker 1: of does an l. Ron Hubbard, but in reverse, where

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Speaker 1: Like Hubbard writes all these dime novels and then creates

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Speaker 1: a cult because he wants to get out of that industry,

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Speaker 1: whereas Ingle funds his little cult by writing a bunch

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Speaker 1: of like shitty weird fiction. I don't know if it

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Speaker 1: was shitty. Actually I haven't read it. I shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: judgmental like that. It might have been good weird fiction.

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Speaker 1: His Illuminati limps on into the nineteen seventies when they

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Speaker 1: fall a foul of Germany's militant post war anti cult movement.

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Speaker 1: There is we talk about this in the episode Sorry, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's really funny. Yeah, well, we talked about this in

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Speaker 1: the episodes titled The School That Raped Everyone, which is

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Speaker 1: a dark episode about how there was an element of

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Speaker 1: kind of the progressive left in post war Germany that

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Speaker 1: embraced free love politics to such an extent that they

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Speaker 1: justifying the molestation of children. And this is a big

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Speaker 1: part of what gets the Illuminati in trouble. I have

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Speaker 1: not found any evidence that they are molesting anybody, but

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Speaker 1: they are teaching sex magic. And because there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of problems with other kind of people in who

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Speaker 1: are broadly in the same sort of cultic milieu, you

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Speaker 1: might say as the Illuminati in this period who are

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Speaker 1: molesting children, they get caught up in I don't even

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Speaker 1: want to call it a moral panic. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people were actually harmed, but the Illuminati does not seem

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Speaker 1: to have been justifiably targeted here. They were just like

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Speaker 1: adults who were doing satanic orgies, which is fine, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean like, but like this, this complaint continues on today,

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Speaker 1: how a lot of yes, a lot of like sex

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Speaker 1: cults are specifically the OTO is just kind of a

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Speaker 1: sex cult for its for its like older male members.

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Speaker 1: This is this is this is something that is is Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very very much a continuing critique, And there's nothing inherently

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Speaker 1: wrong with making a sex for you and your friends.

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Speaker 1: I've been in a couple of sex cults. It's fine. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they always end great. It's what everyone says about sex calls.

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Speaker 1: Some of them do, yeah, and the Illuminati doesn't end

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Speaker 1: all that terribly, but it just kind of peters out

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Speaker 1: after this point. The last leader of the Second Illuminati,

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Speaker 1: a guy named Metzker, dies a lonely alcoholic in nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 1: which is a pretty common way for things to end

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Speaker 1: for the leaders of sex colts. While Metzger's Illuminati was

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Speaker 1: limping through the last arthritic stages of its life, events

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Speaker 1: over in the United States were about to bring the

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Speaker 1: Illuminati to a level of fame it hadn't enjoyed even

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Speaker 1: in the days of Adam I Shopped. Carrie Windell Thornley

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Speaker 1: was born on April seventeenth, nineteen thirty eight, in Whittier, California.

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Speaker 1: Whittier is today a suburb of Los Angeles. It is

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Speaker 1: back then it was kind of just like its own

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Speaker 1: little town in the middle of southern California. If you

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Speaker 1: google the neighborhood that Carrie Thornley grew up in today,

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Speaker 1: you'll immediately be shown a map that depicts the unincorporated community,

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Speaker 1: boxed in by bold blue pins that indicate a Costco,

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Speaker 1: a home depot, a savers, a Target, and a Trader Joe's.

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Speaker 1: They surround East Whittier like a capitalist pentagram, almost as

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Speaker 1: if her medic capitalist wizards were trying to keep some

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Speaker 1: sort of dangerous energy contained within. These are the things

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Speaker 1: you think about when you spent sixteen hours writing about

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Speaker 1: the Illuminati late at nights. No one fuck up those stores,

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Speaker 1: or all hell will be based upon the world. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: these are will crawl from underneath the Costco and start

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Speaker 1: taking over the suburb. This is the Seven Seals of Neoliberalism.

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Speaker 1: This is John Darnell novel, and I would read it.

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Speaker 1: Carrie was raised Mormon, and for much of the first

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Speaker 1: seven years of his life his father was overseas fighting it.

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Speaker 1: A little thing he might have heard of called the

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Speaker 1: Second World War. Most of the context we have for

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Speaker 1: his childhood comes from a letter his brother wrote decades

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Speaker 1: later that I found reprinted in a zine published by

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Speaker 1: Carrie's ideological children. Most of the good history on Carrie

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Speaker 1: you find scattered in zines that are like thirty years old,

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Speaker 1: so it is a whole thing piecing it together. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to read a quote from that letter now, though,

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Speaker 1: and this is his brother talking. We were living behind

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Speaker 1: my grandparents when I was born and what is now

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Speaker 1: called watts on seventy seventh Street in la and our

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Speaker 1: dad was in the navy stationed in Okinawa at the time.

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Speaker 1: When Dad had returned from World War Two, Carrie was

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Speaker 1: waiting to welcome him, dressed in a sailor's out that

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Speaker 1: my mom had gotten him, and I was a newborn

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Speaker 1: in a cradle. Dad came in the door and rushed

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Speaker 1: over to see me before he hugged Carrie. Carrie got

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Speaker 1: so pissed that he ran out the back door and

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Speaker 1: climbed up the walnut tree and refused to come down.

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Speaker 1: That event, more than any other, set the tone for

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Speaker 1: Carrie's relationship with me. The rest of my life is

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Speaker 1: punctuated with events in which Carrie did his best to

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Speaker 1: get even with me, from what I called his intellectual

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Speaker 1: muggings when I was in college to writing parodies of

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Speaker 1: letters that I would send him later in life. Our

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Speaker 1: father was a raging alcoholic, so by necessity Carry became

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Speaker 1: like a father figure to me and Dick. So he's

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Speaker 1: like a complicated guy. He's the fact that his dad

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Speaker 1: is absent, I think has a big impact on him,

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Speaker 1: and he feels this sense of like jealousy for his

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Speaker 1: father's attention because it had been so absent, but also

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Speaker 1: because his father is this violent asshole, he sort of

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Speaker 1: acts to protect his younger brothers. You know, it's a

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Speaker 1: complicated thing I think he does. You know, he's obviously

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Speaker 1: he's a kid, so there's sometimes he does shit out

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Speaker 1: of spite to his brothers. But you get the feeling

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Speaker 1: that he did the most that he could to try

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Speaker 1: and fill that gap that was left by his dad

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Speaker 1: being a non functional person, Like he did hit the

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Speaker 1: best job I think you could have expected of a

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Speaker 1: kid in that circumstance. It's a difficult way to grow up. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Carrie met Greg Hill, who was three years younger, in

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Speaker 1: high school in nineteen fifty six. The two were members

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Speaker 1: of the very first generation of their nerds. They're big

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Speaker 1: fucking nerds, and they were sometimes mocked by it. I

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Speaker 1: think like George McFly from Back to the Future, that

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Speaker 1: is exactly the kind of kids that we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: They were huge into Mad Magazine, which was kind of

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Speaker 1: like that was a lot of people who wind up

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Speaker 1: very radical in the sixties and seventies start by reading

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Speaker 1: Mad Magazine and in the early sixties or whatever, and

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Speaker 1: they were interested in radical political ideas much like the

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Speaker 1: ones that had animated Adam Bishopped centuries before. They were

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Speaker 1: also again big sci fi nerds, with what one biographer

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Speaker 1: describes as a fondness for crackpots. Their childhoods would have

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Speaker 1: involved colorful, weirdly horny comic books and the short stories

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Speaker 1: of men like Bob Heinlin, Philip K. Dick, and l

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Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard. Greg and Carey were so excited by this

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Speaker 1: stuff that they briefly attended meetings of a nearby uf

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Speaker 1: O cult as adolescence called understanding. Greg later recalled through

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Speaker 1: our mutual general interest in wondering just what was going

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Speaker 1: on out there in that gigantic world, and are many

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Speaker 1: common specific interests in humanism, anti religionism, and enjoyant for

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Speaker 1: enjoyment for Omar Khayam, and a curiosity for the bizarre

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Speaker 1: like black magic and hypnotism, plus our common warped sense

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Speaker 1: of humor. We formed a close friendship. So that's that's

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Speaker 1: who these guys are, right, Like, they're they're kind of

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Speaker 1: young kids in this boring town and they get really

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Speaker 1: into science fiction and fantasy, and that leads them into

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Speaker 1: reading about the occult and reading all of these also

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Speaker 1: kind of like mystic They're into the Sufis, they're into

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Speaker 1: Zinn Buddhism, like they're not just into like kind of

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Speaker 1: golden dawns. Yeah, they're they're pretty cool. Actually, yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: I would say, I don't know how it's gonna end up,

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Speaker 1: So I'm gonna hold onto them as being real cool

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Speaker 1: right now. They're there. It's going to end in a

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Speaker 1: couple of different ways, Margaret. Everyone involved in the movement

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Speaker 1: we're talking about has a very very different ending. Um. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I could choose your adventure novel. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um.

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Speaker 1: I do want to talk a little bit about Omar Khayam,

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Speaker 1: who is a He was a guy who lived from

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Speaker 1: like basically around a thousand ish to eleven hundred a d.

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Speaker 1: He's a polymath, one of these guys who's like he's

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Speaker 1: doing math and he's a philosopher, and he's writing poetry

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Speaker 1: that's still very popular today. And he's one of the

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Speaker 1: things about him that's kind of interesting and that's probably

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Speaker 1: going to be relevant. That's going to definitely be relevant

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Speaker 1: to the way that Kerry Thornley uses him, because Thornley's

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Speaker 1: obsessed with this guy. Is that for kind of centuries

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Speaker 1: and centuries after his death, it became a tradition in

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Speaker 1: a chunk of at least Islamic poetry to attribute your

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Speaker 1: poems to Omar Khayam. And this started being done this

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Speaker 1: like for whatever reason in the eighteen hundreds, Europeans start

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Speaker 1: doing this too, and some of this is tied in

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Speaker 1: with like orientalism. I'm not a great person to discuss that,

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Speaker 1: because this is a very influential figure. But one thing

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Speaker 1: that's important to know is he is a real poet

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Speaker 1: who also has become kind of this. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it's calling him a symbol is the right thing,

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Speaker 1: but people decided to attribute poems to him that had

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Speaker 1: not been written by him. There's a bunch of these

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Speaker 1: throughout history, these like shared author names. They're really interesting.

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Speaker 1: It may yeah, it is, it is really interesting. Obviously

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00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 1: Kerry Thornley is very interested in this guy, maybe in

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00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,159
Speaker 1: part because of that. A lot of a lot of

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Speaker 1: like a cult authors also also have this. There's like

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Speaker 1: Hermes Trismegistus, There's there's a lot of even um even

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Speaker 1: the uh oh, I forget the forget the name, let

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00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 1: me look it up quick. Um. Well, that's why I

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Speaker 1: have a new book coming out by um Alistair Crowley,

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Speaker 1: um the name under Now see, I'm doing a totally

385
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Speaker 1: different thing. I'm just gonna credit my next book to

386
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: Stephen King and just take that money, you know, just

387
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Speaker 1: just take that cash, baby. I mean. In terms of

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Speaker 1: a cult authors who also did this, there was the

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Speaker 1: the fourth Book of a Cult Philosophy by Agrippa, probably

390
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: not written by the actual Agrippa, who dead for several

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Speaker 1: thousand years. Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's just yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's it's interesting a trend that that continues because like

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Speaker 1: the types of communities that were that were writing these

394
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 1: occult Texas groups really do get continued by the stuff

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Speaker 1: that Greg Hill was actually inadvertently developing. And it's interesting,

396
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 1: like just how similar this type of stuff is. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And then one of the other of these shared names,

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Speaker 1: Luther Bliss. It is Italian collective of radicals who then

399
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,640
Speaker 1: lots of people write under this name that put out

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00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 1: a book called Q that's a conspiracy book that came

401
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: out before any of this, before the Q went on.

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00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: And I believe and I might have. I don't have

403
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: a note in front of me, but Luther Bliss it

404
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: is like some like famous like soccer player, and these

405
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 1: like Italian radicals were just like, we're just gonna use

406
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 1: his name, and the dude was like a live and

407
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 1: they were and they wrote this like bestseller called Q

408
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 1: that's a conspiracy novel. Sh It's weird. That is very funny,

409
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: and uh, you know what else is funny? Margaret Um,

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00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 1: the stuff adder, the products and services, the ads supporting

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Speaker 1: this podcast, all of which, by the way, all of

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Speaker 1: our ads are are written and produced by by Omar Khayam,

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Speaker 1: So you know, enjoy some of this classic celjuck capitalism poetry.

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Speaker 1: It's just gonna be some math ads. I hope it's gold.

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Speaker 1: I bet he had gold everyone did back then. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're back. So Carrie Thornley and Greg Hill and a

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Speaker 1: circle of their friends, and I am leaving. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of actual people here who you can read about,

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Speaker 1: who are also influential. I'm not going to go into

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Speaker 1: detail about all of them. There's a reason I'm going

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Speaker 1: to focus primarily on Thornley and Hill here. I'll be

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Speaker 1: suggesting a book later if you want to learn more

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Speaker 1: about every single person who was involved in this this

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Speaker 1: next stage of the Illuminatium. But yeah, the core of

425
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 1: this circle seems to be Thornley and Hill, and they

426
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: are some There's something kind of magnet about the two

427
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: when they are together. Part of us do with the

428
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: fact that Carrie is an undeniably talented public speaker, and

429
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: he seems to have kind of an ability to lead people,

430
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: or at least be so obsessed with something in such

431
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: an endearing way that people feel the desire to follow him.

432
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: One of the things that he, Carrie and Greg both

433
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: were really into was playing pranks on their classmates. And

434
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a segment from a biography by

435
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: a guy named Adam go Rightley that talks about one

436
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: of the pranks that they played on their school Chumps,

437
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: Carry Gregg and other unnamed cohorts made a recording of

438
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 1: what at first appeared to be a regular radio program,

439
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: with music playing innocently from a radio positioned on the

440
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: apron of the stage. In actuality, the sounds were projected

441
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: from a real to real tape machine hidden backstage. Inserted

442
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 1: into the seemingly mundane radio program, The pranksters had implanted

443
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: a series of interruptions made by a newscaster to the

444
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: effect that Soviet plans were invading the US and dropping bombs.

445
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: As one classmate recall, somebody had told me early on

446
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: that it was a joke, but some of the students

447
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 1: didn't know and got really scared. What made me feel

448
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 1: bad was that one of the boys in the class

449
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: was so scared he was praying. So this is like,

450
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: I kind of know where this story goes from from

451
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 1: from this point on, and the fact that they were

452
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: doing this ship as kids is hilarious. This this exact

453
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: same style of prank and the kind of recklessness that

454
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: they go about it gets continued on to massive proportions,

455
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: like they do so much inadvertent damage by pranks of

456
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: this style on a national scale very soon, and it's

457
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 1: so weird. You're like just watching the trade about about

458
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: to crash, and you're you're seeing it go and you

459
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen, and it kind of in line

460
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: with that. Garrison Carrie's friends at the time, when interviewed

461
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: later would note that as a kid, he had a

462
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: habit of access not seem to know how to stop

463
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: himself when the playing around got out of hand. Yeah.

464
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: That said, he was also intensely empathetic, and one of

465
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: the stories told about him is that after his high

466
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: school graduation, one of his close friends came out of

467
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: the closet to him as gay. This is in nineteen

468
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: fifty seven, and that friend, when interviewed, was like, Yeah,

469
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: he just like embraced me, like there was never any judgment.

470
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: He was completely completely accepting and fine, which is notworthy.

471
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: Some of these people are like actually really decent people

472
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: unless and have had and have like pretty good politics,

473
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: and we're doing kind of red stuff in the nineteen

474
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties. Yeah, well some of yeah, and let's

475
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: let's put a pin in that one. Yeah. Thornley graduated

476
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: high school in nineteen fifty seven. He attended Marine Corps

477
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: Reserve boot camp that summer. This is not a thing

478
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: he had a choice in. Like a lot of people

479
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: would just kind of join ahead of getting drafted in

480
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: order to have amount of choice in where they went.

481
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: I had a lot of relatives who are like, well,

482
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: if I joined, then I get to like pick kind

483
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: of what I have more agency in this process. Yeah.

484
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: So he goes to boot camp, and then he gets

485
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 1: into the University of Southern California. He spent a lot

486
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: of time still at home with his friends, many of whom,

487
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: namely Greg, hadn't yet graduated. They spent the bulk of

488
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: their free time at twenty four hour bowling alleys where

489
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: they could buy alcohol. One night in nineteen fifty seven, Yeah,

490
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: and he's buying alcohol. Greg is a couple of years

491
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: younger than Carry, So Greg or Carry is often the

492
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: one buying alcohol for his underage friends, which we always

493
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: support here at Cool Zone. Maybe definitely didn't make my

494
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: living doing that when I was a twenty one year

495
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 1: old street punk. No way, you would never do something

496
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: like that when it was the only way to make money.

497
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: One night in nineteen fifty seven, Hill and Thornley were

498
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: discussing poems carry had written on Order emerging from Chaos,

499
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: Hill argued that order was a construction of the human mind,

500
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: only chaos was real. Now there's a couple of versions

501
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: of what comes next, and the version that mirror subjective reality. Hill,

502
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: an atheist, expressed his frustration with modern organized religions for

503
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: claiming the existence of an organizing principle behind the universe.

504
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: The ancient Greeks, he expressed, had gotten it closest to

505
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: write because they had a goddess of chaos. Her name

506
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: was Airis or Discordia in Latin. Hill felt that Airis

507
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: was the only deity he'd ever seen any evidence of,

508
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: and he suggested it might be a good idea if

509
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: someone created a religion based around her. It's gonna go great,

510
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: to go really well, it's gonna go so good. Margaret's five.

511
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: I'm so excited now. While he was at college, Thornley

512
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: attempted to join a fraternity, Delta Sigma Phi, and what

513
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: would be one of his only real brushes with the

514
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: square world. He pledged, and he went through a hazing

515
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: ritual called Hell Week. That year, the brothers allowed a

516
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: black student pledge. They made him go through hell Week,

517
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: and then after he had gone through all of that

518
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: kind of hazing shit, they laughed at him and told

519
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: him that, of course, as a black guy, he was

520
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: not allowed to join their fraternity. This was enough to

521
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 1: get carried to leave and to turn him away from

522
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: the concept of fraternities forever. If he ever made a

523
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: secret society, it was going to be one defined by

524
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: radical acceptance. Hill and Thornley kept up their correspondence on

525
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: the subject of creating some sort of like you know,

526
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: they're talking about doing the same kind of shit that

527
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: Vaishop is doing. They're just did They're just talking about

528
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: doing it from a perspective of like this would be

529
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: kind of a funny thing, um, and it's just a freak.

530
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: It's a it's fine. It's just it's casually and it

531
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: is mixed with things they seriously believe. You know, Hill

532
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: is you might call Hill a very early atheist activist, right,

533
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: you know, pre Dawkins, pre all of that, you know

534
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: that kind of guys who became really prominent in the

535
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: late nineties, early two thousands. Hill is that in the

536
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: late nineteen in fifties, early sixties. But also he's he's

537
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: like much less insufferable than the guys that followed. I

538
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: don't think he is, because he understands like the chaotic

539
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: nature of existence. Yeah yeah, And Thornley I think is

540
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: sympatica with hill On a lot, But Thornley is a

541
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: little more mystical, right, like, yeah, he seems to be

542
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: kind of more moved by that stuff, although not to

543
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: an agree that a degree that it seems to like

544
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: great On hill who is kind of fundamentally a materialist

545
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: value or our vision of the universe. That's at least

546
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: my take on this. There's so many much that also

547
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: that's very contradictory about these guys. So if you do

548
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: your own research on this, you may come to some

549
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: different conclusions about some of them this than I am.

550
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,719
Speaker 1: It really depends on which zines you stumble into. Um

551
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: And like a lot of these guys who are writing

552
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: stuff about themselves wrote it contradictory on purpose to make

553
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: things confusing, because because they thought it was a funny prank.

554
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: Because they thought it was a funny pranks. So all

555
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: of French philosophy, I really Yeah, yeah, Thornley winds up

556
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: joining the marine corps um you know, he after he

557
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: does his like a little bit of time in college,

558
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: he becomes active duty in the corps Um and so

559
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: he spends a couple of years as a marine. And

560
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: while he is a marine state side, he spends I

561
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: think it's a little less than a year serving alongside

562
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: a bright young man that you might have note heard

563
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: of named Lee Harvey Oswald. Uh and Carrie and Lee

564
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald become pretty good friends there. They are, they

565
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: are buddies. And one of the things that carry likes

566
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: about Oswald is that he's a little bit of a prankster,

567
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: just a just a kooky guy. That's what everybody knows

568
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: about Lee Harvey Oswald. He's gonna tell a very famous

569
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: joke in the not too distant future. From this point

570
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: gets him a lot of attention. It's all I'll like you.

571
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: Hit tweet, hit tweet. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to advertise

572
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: the projectors under this one. Yeah, I'm going to read

573
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: another quote from Adam Gowrightley's book. Quote. Later, Kerry would

574
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: describe Oswald as the outfit eight ball, earning this dubious

575
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: distinction by openly subscribing to communist newspapers such as Prafta

576
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: and cracking jokes with an exaggerated Russian accent, answering questions

577
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: with da or nip and referring to his fellow Marines

578
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: as comrades. It was common knowledge that Oswald was studying

579
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: Russian and was fairly fluent in conversational Russian. Because of this,

580
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: he inquired the nickname Oswaldskovic. And this is no one's

581
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: reporting this. You're in a war against Russia. No, it's

582
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: like I'm a communist. See this is actually I wanted

583
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: to talk about this. This is a thing I think

584
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: a lot of folks who, because of the fact that

585
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: they are more on the left side of things and

586
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: maybe don't have a lot of firsthand experience with the military,

587
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: don't get so much because there's there's like a conspiracy

588
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: theory going around right now, right that it has been

589
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: going on for a while, but because it was Pat

590
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: Tillman got brought up at the Super Bowl by those

591
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: fucks at the NFL. This was talked about recently where

592
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: folks are like, oh, he was obviously murdered by his

593
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: own guys because they heard him talking about how the

594
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: war was bullshit and like saying like anti American stuff,

595
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: and so they assassinated him. This is a conspiracy theory.

596
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: That's not what happened. It's incredibly common if you talk

597
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: to guys who were serving in combat in Afghanistan and

598
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: Iraq for people to say, this war is bullshit, what

599
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: we're doing is stupid. I have talked to people who'd

600
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, half the unit thought that what we

601
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: were doing over there was bullshit. It was not uncommon

602
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: for people to be like, fuck this stupid war. It's

603
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: like a thing that like, soldiers fuck around, and soldiers,

604
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: like anyone else, often while they are participating in whatever war,

605
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: express opinions that are contra to the like, and Oswald

606
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: is one of these guys. And so he does get

607
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,239
Speaker 1: in trouble a couple of times, but like, he's never

608
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: drummed out of the Marines for making for doing jokes

609
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: about being a communist. Yeah, and they're not also entirely jokes.

610
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 1: And in fact Oswald is for at least a period

611
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: of his military service, seen as a pretty good soldier.

612
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: In a later part of his life, Kerrie and another

613
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: one of their comrades would claim that he Oswald and

614
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: the Southern Marine were approached by someone that they believe

615
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: was a representative of the CIA and given aptitude tests.

616
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: Oswald and the Southern Marine were asked if they would

617
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 1: be interested in parachuting into foreign countries and helping rebels

618
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: do things like build radios. This is School of America's shit,

619
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: and there were absolutely US soldiers who had this experience.

620
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: I can't confirm or deny whether or not that happened

621
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: to Oswald in specific, but this is a thing that occurred, right,

622
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: so it's not unlikely that some version of this happened Perian.

623
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: By all accounts, he seems to be like decent at

624
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: being a soldier. He was a pretty good shot. Pretty

625
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: good shot. So you're saying on the record that the

626
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: CIA hired him to assassinate John F. Kennedy. That is

627
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: exactly what I'm saying. Okay, it actually, Margaret, hold up

628
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: because it gets a lot more conspiratorial here. So Carrie

629
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: would also later and this is at a point of

630
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 1: his life when his mental health is not so great,

631
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: It would also later claim that he was targeted by

632
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: the MK Ultra program during this part of his life.

633
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: Now here's the thing. After his time with Oswald, he

634
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: was stationed at at Sugi Air Base in Japan as

635
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: a radar technician, and it is while he was stationed

636
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: here that he starts having auditory hallucinations at night of

637
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: radio chatter in his head. Carrie became convinced that he

638
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: was hearing actual radio traffic in his head. This is

639
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 1: at a later portion of his life now at Sugi

640
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: Air Base is host to a major was host to

641
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: a major CIA base, and it was one of two

642
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: foreign bases where the CIA conducted MK ultra experiments. In

643
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: a rolling Stone investigation published years later, an anonymous marine

644
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: who served it at Sugi around the same time as

645
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: carried it an Oswald at a separate period of time,

646
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: serves at Szugi Ericabase. This guy claims it was pretty weird.

647
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: I'm eighteen at the time and chasing all the horse

648
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: in town, and these CIA guys are buying me drinks

649
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 1: and paying for the horse and giving me a whole

650
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: round of drinks with lots of weird drugs in them.

651
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: Pretty soon all the shadows are moving around. We're in

652
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: the bar. See the samurais are everywhere, and I started

653
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: seeing skeletons and things. My mind just started boiling over

654
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: going about a thousand miles a minute. Now there's a

655
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 1: distinctly higher than zero chance that either Oswald or Thornley,

656
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: or quite possibly both of them were dosed as part

657
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 1: of the MK Ultra experiments, and if doing so. By

658
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: the way, this is not like trying to say some

659
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: conspiracy about the Kennedy assassination here, they would if that

660
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: happened to them. They are just some of hundreds and

661
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: hundreds of US servicemen who were dosed by the CIA

662
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 1: against their will. This happened constantly to tens of thousands

663
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 1: of people, as we've talked about in our our MK

664
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: Ultra episodes. We will never know for certain because the

665
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: architect of MK or Ultra burned all of the files.

666
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: So just keep in your mind it is possible that

667
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: the first time Kerry Thornley has LSD it's because the

668
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: CIA drugs him, which convinces him that he's hearing voices

669
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: at night. We will never know. It's also there's stories

670
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: from Oswald around this period that like one night he

671
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: starts freaking out that there's guys shooting at him from

672
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 1: like the woods when he's on guard duty. That some

673
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: people of theorize like, oh yeah, maybe he just got

674
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: fucking dosed and had a breakdown. This happens to a

675
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: lot of guys. It's certainly not impossible that it happened

676
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: to Oswald and Thornley as someone who's been dosed against

677
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: my will before this all tracks. Yeah, because when you

678
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: tell all of those that you're on drugs, it's a

679
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,479
Speaker 1: completely different experience than when you know you're on drugs. Yeah,

680
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: that is entirely possible, And I think I think there's

681
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: actually pretty good at least one of them did, because

682
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: they're both added SUGI and we know the CIA is

683
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: doing this shit to service minute at SUGI. Yeah, so

684
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: you know again, Oh, I guess I have to just

685
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: continue the story. Oswald and Thornley were only stationed together

686
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: for a brief portion of their service, after which they

687
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 1: probably never saw each other again, or did they? While

688
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people are going to ask that question.

689
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: Mark Carrie gets sent to Manila next, where he sees

690
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: such heartbreaking poverty that he becomes a Marxist Leninist. He

691
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: starts reading books on Marxist political theory, and he becomes

692
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: more committed than ever to his pranks. The ultimate example

693
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: of this is a fake marine that he creates under

694
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: the name Omar Kayam Ravenhurst, and he does this by

695
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: inserting fake records into the administrative files. He gets so

696
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: far into this that he gets the military to issue

697
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: a locker and a bunk to this fake soldier. And

698
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: then after he leaves, there's a big base inspection and

699
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: all the inspector can't find this guy who has a

700
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: bunk and who has like a locker and who is

701
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: supposed to be turning out for inspection, and it causes

702
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: like a big problem. But he is. He has made

703
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: a fake man. Um. He's a he's a very fun

704
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 1: character in this part of his life. After their time Marines, Yeah,

705
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: after their time in the Marines, Oswald affects the Soviet

706
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: Union from nineteen fifty nine to nineteen sixty two, So

707
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: some amount of the jokes that Oswald was making about

708
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: Communism were not jokes. He's like sitting around and learning Russian,

709
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: being like, hey guys, yeah, I'm gonna defect to the Russians,

710
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: and everyone's like, oh yeah, O Lee Harvey, Yeah, I'm

711
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna make a I'm gonna make a sitcom

712
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: about Lee Harvey. Oswald called O Lee Harvey just about

713
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: all his mini pranks um like that one he carried

714
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: out in Dallas and anyway, um, so Carrie is like, why, wow,

715
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: it's weird that this guy who I was a friend

716
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: with left the Marines in order to defect to the

717
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: Soviet Union. That's kind of a neat story. I'm going

718
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: to write a book about it. So he decides he

719
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: starts work on a fictional book based around a character

720
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: that is a thinly veiled Lee Harvey Oswald. This book

721
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: is out today. You can read this book that is

722
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: a fictional story he wrote about his real friend Lee

723
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald. And while he was starting this project his

724
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 1: work on his first novel, he comes across a copy

725
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: of another book that's going to change his life, and

726
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: unfortunately it's Iron Rand's Atlas Shrugged. He is so blown

727
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: away by miss Rand's prose that he converts from Marxism

728
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: to lazy fair capitalism overnight and basically becomes an objectivist. Now,

729
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: the thing you might be starting to get from Carry

730
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: right now is that he's a little bit of a

731
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: seeker Ideologically. He is very prone to encountering a book

732
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: and feeling that book on a almost spiritual level, and

733
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: changing his life as a result of that book. This

734
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: will be a pattern for him throughout his life. Now,

735
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: while he's doing this, he still has the same creative urges,

736
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: and he maintains his friendship with Greg Hill, and he

737
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: moves back home with his parents briefly at least, and

738
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: during that period of time, he and Greg Hill launch

739
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: a project that is an attempt at creating a humor magazine,

740
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: which I mostly mentioned because of its title Apocalypse, a

741
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: trade journal for doom profits, which is a great title. Nobody, Yeah, nobody.

742
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: I haven't found a copy of this. I would love to.

743
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: I don't even know if it exists anymore. This is

744
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: proto zine culture, which, by the way, these are going

745
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: to be two of the guys generally credited with inventing

746
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: the concept of zines. And yeah, they this particular magazine

747
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: does not work very well. Um, so you know they

748
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: they they give up that project pretty early on. Life

749
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: back in Whittier grated on them both, particularly the fact

750
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: that the police would keep pulling them over for wandering

751
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: around at night with no clear purpose, which was legal

752
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: back then there were actually laws about like being out

753
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: at night without a reason to be out at night.

754
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: So they decided to move to a place where there

755
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: were no laws about staying up all night and being weirdos.

756
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: And that place was New Orleans. And yeah, I think

757
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: that's a good point to lead into an ad break.

758
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: Is it an AD for New Orleans? I hope it's

759
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: an ad for New Orleans. Go to New Orleans. It's

760
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 1: a city where you can eat a shitload alligator meat,

761
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: and I assume other things beignys exactly. You can stuff

762
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 1: a bigne with gator. Yeah, I mean, I'll put gator

763
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: in anything. I love gator, and I like New Orleans.

764
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: We're back. We're back from New Orleans. So they moved

765
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: to New Orleans in nineteen sixty one, and Carrie continues

766
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,439
Speaker 1: work on his novel, which he has decided to name

767
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: The Idle Warriors. After Oswald got back from the Soviet Union,

768
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 1: he wound up moving to New Orleans too. He and

769
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: Thornley are living just blocks away from each other, and

770
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: Thornley would claim for the rest of his life that

771
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 1: he was unaware of this, that they never saw each

772
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: other again. And it's worth noting that, according to Carrie's

773
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: friend Becky Glazer, Carrie spent his time in New Orleans

774
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: quote getting high off of everything so it's not odd

775
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: that he would have been unaware. There are stories that

776
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: he gets high smoking banana peals, which do not get

777
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: you high, but Carrie claims like he makes blunts out

778
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 1: of banana appeals and claims to get wasted off of them.

779
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:49,919
Speaker 1: There's going to be some stuff later in the story

780
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 1: that makes this makes sense. This is more what I

781
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 1: think of New Orleans about is instead of Gator is

782
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: getting high off of everything. So yeah, well that is

783
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: again so Carrie's and acclaim I didn't see Oswald. There's

784
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 1: a decent chance of that purely because like he is

785
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 1: spending most of his time getting wasted and hanging out

786
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 1: with like weirdos on kind of the fringes of society,

787
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: and this is what's going to wind up bringing him

788
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 1: into contact with a number of people who later become

789
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: central parts in some of the early JFK assassination conspiracy theories.

790
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: People besides Oswald, one of these guys is a friend

791
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: of Carrie's named Slim brooks Now Slim may have been

792
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: a navigational consultant on the Bay of Pigs Invasion. We

793
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,959
Speaker 1: don't actually know who this guy is. There's a couple

794
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: of people that we know Carrie is hanging out with

795
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: who give him names that we know our fake names

796
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: because no one ever existed under those names, which is

797
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: part of like what leads to these guys being part

798
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 1: of the JFK conspiracy. Also, this is a man who's

799
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: known to make up people. This is a man who's

800
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: known to make up people, although other people recall these

801
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: folks um And this is an unpleasant part of Carry's

802
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: history because Slim introduces him to a guy named Gary Kirstein,

803
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: and some conspiracy theorist of the Kennedy assassination think that

804
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: Gary Kirstein was actually Watergate burglar in CIA spymaster E

805
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: Howard Hunt, because Gary Kirstein was not a real person.

806
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,399
Speaker 1: Now to Carry, the man who identified himself as Gary

807
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: Kirsteine claimed to have unclear ties to intelligence agencies while

808
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: he regularly spouted neo Nazi propaganda. Carry later wrote, quote,

809
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: one of the first things I learned about Gary was

810
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: that he also hated Kennedy, but for somewhat different political

811
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: reasons than mine. What a funny bit it It is

812
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: a funny bit. The bit's gonna get funnier. Quote. He

813
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: expressed his dislike for Jews, Poles, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Russians, Mexicans,

814
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: and so on, with a chuckle usually, which left me

815
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: with room to assume he wasn't really very serious about it. That,

816
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: of course, was the assumption I preferred to make, since

817
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 1: I really liked Slim a lot and Gary was his friend. Now,

818
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: this is where we're starting to see some of the

819
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: moral downsides of being as open minded dude as Kerry was,

820
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: because he's kind of willing to be like, well, this

821
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,439
Speaker 1: guy likes talking a lot about Nazi stuff, but maybe

822
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: he's joking. I like his friends, so I'm not going

823
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: to cause a problem, which is a bad thing to do. Yeah,

824
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: And Gary makes another bad decision after this point, which

825
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: is he decided it kind of becomes a common thing

826
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: for him when he's hanging out at bars with these

827
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: guys to joke about murdering President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Now

828
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 1: this may have been recorded, and it happens often enough

829
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: that numerous people have experiences of carry talking about killing JFK.

830
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: He puts up posters calling for JFK to be like

831
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: arrested or otherwise taken out of the presidency, which one

832
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 1: might have seen, it's not impossible. Although, yeah, this is

833
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: against JFK at this point, we're we're going to talk

834
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: about that, Margaret. So there's a couple of things he

835
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: has against JFK. One of them is that JFK supported

836
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: the side who was fighting against the side backed by

837
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: Rhodesia in the Congo. Um. It is unclear why he

838
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: was angry at He talks a lot about something called

839
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: the Katanga massacre, which during the Katanga War, which is

840
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,760
Speaker 1: this war that happens in the Congo, there were massacres

841
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: on both sides. I don't know specifically what he was

842
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: talking about there. He also he's again he's an objectivist

843
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: at this point, So he hates Kennedy's economic policies, right, um,

844
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: but he also hates Kennedy for trying to invade Cuba. Like, wait,

845
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: there was so many steps all over the map. There's

846
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: so many steps of Rhodesia that I lost the negative

847
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: of the negative of the negative. Tell me where where

848
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 1: did JFK sit on Rhodesia and where did well j

849
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: JFK under him? The United States backed a side in

850
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: a civil war in Congo that was opposed to the

851
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: side that was backed by Rhodesia, and I don't know,

852
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: Carrie never said anything pro Rhodesia. Okay, Carrie was angry

853
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: that there were massacres in this war, which he blamed

854
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: on Kennedy. He was also angry at Kennedy for the

855
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 1: Bay of Pigs and for attacking Cuba. So it's it's

856
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: all overs of like right wing and left wing things

857
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: that are like again, he's all over the map um

858
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: kind of on this stuff. But whatever reasons he had

859
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: for hating Kennedy, he and his new buddies Slim and

860
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,240
Speaker 1: Gary the Nazi have a lot of theoretical discussions about

861
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 1: killing JFK. Carrie's contributions to the conversation include advocating of

862
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: the use of a poison dart that would quote blow

863
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 1: his stomach apart, as well as another scenario involving a

864
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: remote control plane carrying a bomb, which is at least innovated. Yeah,

865
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: gotta give Ry credit for predicting drone warfare. Yeah. Um.

866
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 1: After Carry finished with his mock assassination plots, Kirstine added,

867
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: and next we'll get Martin Luther King. Now this is

868
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: the point at which Carry started to wonder if maybe

869
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 1: he hadn't fallen in with a bad group of people.

870
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,919
Speaker 1: But again, he has terrible judgment and he just kind

871
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: of lets this slide. Another example of his terrible judgment

872
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: comes when Gary Kirstine pays him to help research a

873
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: book with the title strap In for this one, Folks,

874
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: Hitler was a good guy. Now the premise of this book,

875
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 1: please please enlighten me. It's a little different than what

876
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: you're expecting. The premise of this book is that all

877
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: of the other Nazis and the Third Reich were worse

878
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: than Hitler, so it's good that he was the Nazi

879
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: who wound up in charge. Now, this is an insane

880
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: thing to is. This is full stop idiotic, and Carrie

881
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: does not get involved in this. Carrie is like, well,

882
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: this guy's a weird Nazi, but he's willing to pay me,

883
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: and I am broke and kind of willing to do

884
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: anything for money, Like I don't mind writing out he's

885
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: writing research for this thing, right, So basically what his

886
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: research for this is he's going through the library and

887
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: he's reading books on guys like Gebels, and then he's

888
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: writing out things that Gebel said that sound worse than

889
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 1: things that Hitler said, like that's that's his research on

890
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 1: this project. So yeah, it's all it's good for good,

891
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: good for you, Carrie. Um. Now, while this is going on,

892
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: he is a pretty prominent member of the New Orleans

893
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: fringe community. And this is again we've talked about we

894
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: did in our episodes on Gabriel de Nunzio. Who's the guy.

895
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 1: He's this Italian poet who's generally considered to be the

896
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: ideological founder of fascism. He's the guy who inspired Mussolini.

897
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: He takes over this city on the coast of in

898
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: between kind of it's in Croatian now, but it's it's

899
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: near Italy, and it's after World War One. The city

900
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 1: Fumes in this kind of awkward position where it's an

901
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: independent city but it wants to be part of Italy,

902
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: and he just goes and he takes it over. And

903
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: de Nunzio's like a proto fascist, and a lot of

904
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: the guys who back him in this are proto fascists,

905
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: but also a lot of them are anarchists, and there

906
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 1: are like anarcho syndicalists involved in the government of Fume,

907
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: and even some Marxists, and part of what's happening here

908
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,919
Speaker 1: is that, and this happens periodically. I think you could

909
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: look at the Internet as sort of a digital fume,

910
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,399
Speaker 1: and like the late nineties, early two thousands, and we're

911
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: in another New Orleans in this period is another similar

912
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: situation where you've got all of these kind of fringe people,

913
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 1: many of whom are going to be very influential in

914
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, going to be big parts of the

915
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 1: hippies and all this stuff that happens are like hanging

916
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: out with like weirdo objectivists and Satanists and occult people

917
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: and Nazis, and they're all hanging out in a lot

918
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: of the same spaces because none of them fit anywhere else.

919
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: And that's kind of what happens in periods of time

920
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: and places. This is like, this is a pattern that

921
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: repeats itself, which I'm not saying to justify on a

922
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: moral level, like you should never sit down and talk to,

923
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: or work with or take money from a Nazi for

924
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 1: a job like this. That's an immoral act, full stop.

925
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: I'm saying that, like this pattern of you having all

926
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: of these different radicals coming at stuff from different views.

927
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: This happens repeatedly in his like the punk scene. It

928
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: just like the punk scene, right then. In the punk scene,

929
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 1: there's a lot of work putting into making as your

930
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 1: Nazis can't hold then, right, but it took a moment.

931
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: Why then, is this is why in radical space is

932
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: you have to be so diligent and proactive about you know,

933
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: will summarize it as punching Nazis because otherwise shit like

934
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 1: this happens. Right, But that culture didn't really exist at

935
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: this point in that part in that area, or at

936
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: least Thornly was not a part of it. Now he's

937
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: also hanging out with It's not just these two weirdos.

938
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: He's hanging out with a lot of musicians, a lot

939
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 1: of like members of the local city. Like there's this

940
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: kind of unique little satan As sect in New Orleans

941
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: at the time, and he's friends with a lot of

942
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:14,439
Speaker 1: those guys. He's just kind of generally in the counterculture. Now.

943
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: He is also again very vociferously an opponent of JFK.

944
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: And largely this comes down to I think economics, because

945
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 1: by this point Carry considered himself a capitalist revolutionary, and

946
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: so he had wished death on the President on numerous

947
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: occasions for the President not sticking to kind of randy

948
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: and principles of Lazai fair capitalism. I've met sep like

949
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 1: this in the goth scene. Yeah, you know, yeah, this

950
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: is not a totally unique journey. In November of nineteen

951
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: sixty three, John F. Kennedy was assassinated. Carrie was working

952
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: at a restaurant at the time, and when it came

953
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: out that the police had arrested a former marine, he

954
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 1: immediately and publicly said, I bet it was my friend,

955
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald. Now his co workers think this is peculiar.

956
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: And here's an opt opset ti tip for you kids

957
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: out here. If you if you believe your friend has

958
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 1: assassinated the president, maybe keep that one to yourself. The

959
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:20,959
Speaker 1: fuck up. Yeah, you might not want to be talking

960
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: about now to the other guys at the kitchen. If

961
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: there's one thing that Thornley cannot do, it he is

962
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: physically incapable of shutting his mouth. Absolutely not. So it's

963
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: a funny prank. It is a funny break. Like the

964
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: French Revolution, the JFK assassination is a moment so horrific

965
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: and inconceivable that it spawned conspiracy theories. Immediately, Carrie's co

966
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 1: workers suspected that he was connected to it since he

967
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 1: looks like Oswald, this is another factor in it. He

968
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: kind of resembles Lee Harvey Oswald. There's talk that they

969
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 1: might secretly brothers. These are the beginning stories of of

970
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: what's going to become a surprisingly influential conspiracy. For his part,

971
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: Carrie believes that Oswald is innocent. He thinks that he

972
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: was a patsy for the real killers, and he I

973
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: think this is just because he was legitimately friends with

974
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: the guy and he just didn't really think that he

975
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,359
Speaker 1: could do it. And in fact, when Oswald gets killed,

976
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: he falls into a deep depression because he's like, now,

977
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: no one's ever going to find out the truth. The

978
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: state has successfully murdered my friend in order to hide

979
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:35,800
Speaker 1: the fact that he was innocent of this terrible crime.

980
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: So that's where Carrie is. Immediately after the kidded the assassination,

981
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 1: and obviously when the president is murdered, the Secret Service

982
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 1: and the FBI, you know, get get out there, start

983
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: to look in at people, start knock it on doors,

984
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 1: and as they begin their investigations, they centered them around

985
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 1: the radical political communities that Oswald had also spent time around.

986
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 1: Oswald had been living in the same part of New Orleans.

987
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: So one of the areas in which the Secret Service

988
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: in the FBI are looking around is New Orleans. And

989
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:13,800
Speaker 1: they start running into a lot of people who are like,

990
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: you know, there's this weird guy who spent like a

991
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: solid year talking about killing JFK and putting up posters

992
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: and he kind of looked like Lee Harvey Oswald, and

993
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: then they're like, oh yeah. And also he talked about

994
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: how he and Oswald were friends. So the FEDS become

995
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: interested in carry and Carrie becomes convinced that he's being

996
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: tailed by the FEDS now and if he created me

997
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: convinced Harvey Oswald like what if a homoculous that's where Yeah,

998
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, that's it. Yeah, Yeah, he made his

999
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 1: own Uh, he made his own tulfa to carry us

1000
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: as not as far from what he winds up believing

1001
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: as I wish it was the case. So but here's

1002
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 1: the thing again, you cannot emphasize how different kind of

1003
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 1: this the left is in this period of time and

1004
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 1: how differently people talk. If one thing what we know

1005
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 1: now today about like co intel pro and the infiltration

1006
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 1: of radical communities by the FBI. There are rumors about

1007
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 1: it then, but we don't like have all of the

1008
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: papers that we do now. It's like, well like this

1009
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: like sixty three, yeah, sixty three right. So Carrie when

1010
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: he finds out, when he decided, when he realizes the

1011
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: FEDS are tailing him and here's the been looking around,

1012
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 1: he just goes to the FBI and he's like, hey, guys,

1013
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 1: I hear you're interested in me and the Kennedy killing.

1014
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:39,439
Speaker 1: You want to give me a light detector test. Makes

1015
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: a lot of bad choices throughout his life. I mean,

1016
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 1: this lawyer might not be the worst call. This actually

1017
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: doesn't because, like the FBI immediately it is like, oh,

1018
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,919
Speaker 1: this guy's kind of a kook, right. Yeah. He also

1019
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: he does have like an airtight alibi for the assassination,

1020
00:57:57,680 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: and he Carrie frames it to them, is I want

1021
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 1: to help you track down the real killer because he

1022
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 1: wants to avenge Lee Harvey Oswald, which the FBI is

1023
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 1: probably also why the FBI is like, Okay, this guy's

1024
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: a little bit of a kuk. Carrie would later recall

1025
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: that the main question the FBI asked him was whether

1026
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: or not Oswald had been quote unquote a homo. I

1027
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: love good, good work guys. Okay, he I know he's okay. No,

1028
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Okay, I don't think so. Um

1029
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: that he that would be would be a proud moment. Again,

1030
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 1: those are not easy shots to make. You're really excited

1031
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: about this line of I'm just really excited to see

1032
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 1: the reddit after this. It's just gonna be people arguing

1033
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: that they could have hit that shot easy with a

1034
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: man liquor carcano. Um, it's hard, folks, it's hard. Look

1035
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 1: not a great rifle. That's why he had to anyway. Whatever. Um, So, yeah, Carrie.

1036
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: For the next year or so, m Carrie, like, conspiracies

1037
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: start to swirl around this guy, Like the conspiracy culture

1038
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 1: in the US gets ignited again by the Kennedy assassination

1039
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: in a way it really hadn't been before. And Carrie

1040
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: is kind of the first guy people suspect of being

1041
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: involved when Kennedy conspiracy theories take off the ground, and

1042
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 1: that is going to have a lot of negative long

1043
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 1: term consequences for Carrie and also everyone else in the world.

1044
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: But the fascinating like butterfly effect that is still continuing

1045
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: on today. But yeah, let's uh let's let's let's talk

1046
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: about that next time, and let's talk about y'all's motherfucking

1047
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 1: plugables this time. Well, if you want a copy of

1048
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: me that is armed with what was the right well no, wait,

1049
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: I shouldn't do that. If you want a book I wrote,

1050
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 1: I wrote a book called Escape from Insul Island and

1051
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: you can read it in afternoon and it has people

1052
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 1: in it who are escaping from Insul Island. And if

1053
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 1: you want to hear us play a role playing game

1054
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 1: based on it, we did a live play that you

1055
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 1: can hear on the podcasts Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness.

1056
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 1: It'll be one of the most recent episodes because well,

1057
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 1: I mean at the time this releases, as otherwise you

1058
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 1: might have to search for it. And I have a podcast.

1059
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 1: I have a podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff,

1060
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 1: we probably won't be covering this exact subject. And well, now, yeah,

1061
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 1: you know, Margaret, this is interesting. I actually did escape

1062
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 1: from an Insall Island once. I think I think you

1063
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: people in the East Coast call it Rhode Island. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes,

1064
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 1: very similar to your story. My experience on Rhode Island. Yeah,

1065
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: it's just made of roads. Also not a roads and

1066
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: in cells. Yeah, in the nineties when I did like

1067
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 1: weird website zine stuff, I definitely wrote weird things about

1068
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: being likewise Rhode Island, Lyne to you about everything, and

1069
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: it's I think it's a it's a great it's a

1070
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 1: great place to target for for like cruel jokes because

1071
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: like four people live there, so yeah, what are they

1072
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: going to do? Yeah, organize against us? Well, and it's

1073
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: because I was involved. Actually, the culture that I was

1074
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: involved in in the nineties was like IRC Discordian stuff,

1075
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 1: So I was hanging out with like older goths who

1076
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 1: are all part of this shit. So yeah, of the

1077
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 1: ship we're about to talk about next episode, Darris. My

1078
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 1: plugs are if you want to contribute to uh, well

1079
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 1: it's it's not it's not quite Discordian. But if if

1080
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 1: you want to feel if you want to feel like

1081
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: you're contributing to the work of of people in very

1082
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 1: secretive groups who are doing who are doing important work,

1083
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 1: you can donate the Atlanta Solidarity Fund um. That is

1084
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: the main thing I'm going to plug along with my

1085
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 1: my my four part series on Stoptop City that was

1086
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 1: just released on It could Happen Here and Uh yeah,

1087
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: let's uh, you know, support people in Atlanta. UM where

1088
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: this story ends. By the way we are, we are.

1089
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 1: We are building to the city of Atlantic Garth. I

1090
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: didn't because attis which actually from underneath the ocean. UM.

1091
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 1: I have been. I have been screaming about this for

1092
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 1: years into my CBE radio. Margaret very excited to talk

1093
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 1: with you all about this. UM anyway, go to go

1094
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: to hell. All of you go to Hell. I love you,

1095
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: Go with Christ to Hell. Behind the Bastards is a

1096
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:51,439
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media,

1097
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us

1098
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 1: out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1099
01:02:58,320 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.