1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: Hello, my dear listener. It's Maria here Gomstace. So you 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: know I co host another podcast. It's our award winning 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: political podcast. It's called In the Thick, and I have 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: my co host, Julio Ricardo Varela with me on every week. 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: So a few weeks back, Julia and I had a 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: chance to talk with Ibramex Kendy. He's the founding director 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: of the Boston University Center for Anti Racist Research, and 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: he was joining us to talk about his new book, 9 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,319 Speaker 1: How to Raise an Anti Racist. You've heard about it, 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: I'm sure. So here's that recent episode of In the 11 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: Thick and enjoyva. 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 2: Yes, we have to understand that if we don't share 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: with our children a different narrative, a different story, what 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: are they going to be told by the media. 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: Fran Futromedia and PRX. It's in the Thick pot casts 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: about politics, race and culture. What's up them? I'm Maria 17 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: Nojosa and we are so excited. Do you sense it 18 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: in my voice and mind too, because it's a little 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: bit higher than normal. 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 3: Boston's in the house, They're like. 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: Riha, bring your tone down, But that's because I'm so 22 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 1: excited joining us from Boston, Massachusetts, is the doctor Ibra 23 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: Max Kendy, founding director of the Boston University Center for 24 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,639 Speaker 1: Anti Racist Research, contributing writer at the Atlantic, and author 25 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: of the new book How To Raise an Anti Racist. 26 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Kendy, Ibra, my brother, it's so great to have 27 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: you on the show. 28 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: Oh, my sister, it's so great to be here. And hello, Julio. 29 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 2: I'm so glad we can have this chat. 30 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, me too, Me too. 31 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: So remember everybody's still recording at home. So dogs, cats, birds, 32 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: you know, cars, sirens. 33 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 3: It could all happens accents outside Boston. 34 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: Access right, So, Ibram, if it's okay, if I call 35 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: you Ibra, Giuss. 36 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: My partners every time I do something that's a little off. 37 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: I thought you were a genius. Yeah, so it's yeah. 38 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: My friends and family always get on me. 39 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: Now, remember, because you won a MacArthur Genius Award for 40 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: your work, because you have dedicated your life, your career, 41 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: your writing, your commitment to others, to family, to young people, 42 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: to chronically not only the history of anti black racism, 43 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: but also the ongoing anti racist resistance in the United States, 44 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: and that means actively challenging and changing racist policies and 45 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: belief systems. Most fundamentally, that racial disparities in this country 46 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:46,119 Speaker 1: are rooting in upholding white supremacy right, understanding that structurally, 47 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: and that racist policies create the racist ideas used to 48 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: justify them, not the other way around. So you write, quote, 49 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: like so many of us today, I had to learn 50 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: as an adult what I could have learned as a child. 51 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: I had to learn I wasn't the racial problem. I 52 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: had to learn No racial group has more because they 53 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: are more. No racial group has less because they are 54 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: less end quote. Interesting. You know, even when we don't 55 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: use the word minority in any of futuro media's work. Ever, 56 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: we never use the word minority because we never want 57 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: to see ourselves as less. So while black scholars have 58 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: been studying these concepts for decades, the past few years 59 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: have really, as you have known and really been a leader, 60 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: We've seen an explosion of interest in anti racism, in 61 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: active anti racist policies, in being a participant in learning 62 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: and practicing anti racism. And a lot of it is 63 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: driven by your genius work. Okay, there's also the reality 64 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: that your work was coinciding with the horror of the 65 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: murder of George Floyd with the uprisings, with the Black 66 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: Lives Matter movement front and center and a national conversation, 67 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: and so talk to us a little bit about, you know, 68 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: just the evolution of your own anti racist scholarship and 69 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: how essentially it became the center of your work in writing, 70 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: because you know, people sometimes are like, well, I'll never 71 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: be able to learn. I'll just you know, I guess 72 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: I just have to accept. And it's like, no, everybody's 73 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: on a journey, including you, even. 74 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean it's and it has been quite 75 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 2: the journey. I mean I started out actually studying black 76 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 2: student activism and really student activism more broadly in the 77 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: late sixties early nineteen seventies, where students of all races 78 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: sort of came together and really tried to revolutionize a 79 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: higher education and started Black studies and ethnic studies sort 80 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: of programs, and built organizations like the Third World Liberation 81 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: Front at San Frsco State in Berkeley and challenged those campuses. 82 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: But I think one of the things that I realized 83 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: in studying those students was those studentudents in many ways 84 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: were revolutionizing our conception of a racist idea because they, 85 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 2: like in the late sixties these students were arguing, you 86 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 2: know what, all these disciplines history, sociology, psychology are racists 87 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: and we need something completely new, which they ultimately called 88 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: ethnic studies. But in the late sixties it was largely 89 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: liberal scholars who were dominating many of these disciplines and 90 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: teaching them in this classes. But it was those scholars 91 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 2: who were saying that, you know, people of color don't 92 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 2: have a culture, or they're living in a cycle of poverty, 93 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: or the black family, you know, is broken, or black 94 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 2: and brown people need to assimilate into white American. 95 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: Culture, or black on black violence. Write that term black 96 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: on black vice. 97 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: Like what yes? And so they were saying to students 98 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 2: that we disagree with those eugenicists who say that the 99 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: races are genetically distinct and certain races are biologically superior, 100 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: but we do think y'all are actually culturally or behaviorally inferior. 101 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: Right. 102 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 4: It was like. 103 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 3: That's the thing, right, It's like, but you're still not 104 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 3: good enough. You're not us, You're not us, You're not 105 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 3: We're going. 106 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: To open up a little bit of space to share 107 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: with you because we're really in charge and empower and 108 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: you're not us. But we're going to share with you 109 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: it's not God, yeah. 110 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: Precisely, And it was a standardizing of whiteness. It was that, 111 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 2: you know, European history is world history. Literature is the 112 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 2: literature that white people have written. Studies were conducted on 113 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: white people, and it was imagined that everyone else could 114 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 2: be interpreted based on those studies. So those students pushed 115 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 2: back against that and they were like, no, those ideas 116 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 2: are racist too. And then by stating that those ideas 117 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: are racist too, they were challenging really the consensus that 118 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: the only racist ideas are notions of biological, inherent racial hierarchy, 119 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: and they were like, no, notions of cultural and behavioral 120 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: racial hierarchy are racist too. And so that actually caused 121 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: me to start thinking about writing what ultimately became stand 122 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: from the beginning, which was this narrative history specifically of 123 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: anti black racist ideas. And that's actually, you know, when 124 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: I found that these ideas were coming out of the 125 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 2: policies to justify them. But in writing that book, I 126 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I don't want to just write a 127 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: history of racist ideas or anti black racist ideas. I 128 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: also want to show that over the course of history, 129 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: people were challenging these ideas that, you know, because we 130 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: like to say that people are products of their time, 131 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: as if nobody was challenging them in their time. 132 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: You know, Ibram, can I say something to you. Of course, 133 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm a child of the late nineteen sixties. Black power 134 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: in the Black Panthers were very present in my life. 135 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: Then I started saying that the Black Lives Matter movement 136 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: began the first day a black person was brought in 137 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: chains into the United States, And is that correct? Then that, yes, 138 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: the resistance was from that moment has always been present, 139 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: and it has always been a resistance to racism without question. 140 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: I mean, and we have so much documented evidence of 141 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: people resisting enslavement, people resisting racist ideas and policies in 142 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: the seventeenth century, we have evidence of Native people resisting 143 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: as soon as Columbus sort of imagined that he discovered something. 144 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, the resistance, the anti racist resistance, 145 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: you know, has certainly always you know, been here, and 146 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: it was certainly there with those students, you know, in 147 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 2: the late sixties. And I wanted to actually show that 148 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: over the course of history, these racist ideas were constantly 149 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: being challenged by anti racist ideas. So I wrote this book, 150 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: and ultimately, when I would go and speak about that book, 151 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: I would urge people to adopt more anti racist ideas, 152 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: and people are like, what what are you talking about? 153 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: What do you mean anti racist ideas? I thought it 154 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: was just not racist, and that's what then ultimately led 155 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: me to write How to Be an Anti Racist? And 156 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: that book. Engaging with people on that book, one of 157 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: the things that was a consistent sort of point of 158 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: feedback was people saying, Okay, and now I have a 159 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 2: better understanding of how to begin to unlearn and correct 160 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: and self reflect and begin to see all the racial 161 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 2: groups as equals. But how do I do this with 162 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 2: my children? Yeah? And I think that's what ultimately led 163 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 2: me to write How to Raise an Anti Racist? 164 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 3: And we're going to talk about the book done, How 165 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 3: to Raise an Anti Racist, But we would be remess 166 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 3: if we weren't talking about the moment we're witnessing in 167 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 3: twenty twenty two. I mean, the grieving for this country's 168 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: mass shootings, including the devastating massacres at a top supermarket 169 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 3: in Buffalo and in elementary school in Uvalde massacres within 170 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 3: a week and a half. Right, So, in response to 171 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 3: the Buffalo shooting, in which ten black shoppers were targeted 172 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 3: and murdered by a white supremacist terrorist. You dedicated your 173 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 3: call them in the Atlantic to what you call the 174 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 3: double terror of racist policy and racist violence. You wrote 175 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 3: about how the victims of the Top shooting had spent 176 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: their lifetime surviving, resisting, and coping with racist policies and 177 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 3: inequities in health, housing, and food access. This is Carol Horn, 178 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 3: who's a community organizer and advocate of Buffalo, speaking to 179 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 3: Democracy Now about the terroristic nature of the Buffalo shooting 180 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 3: and the police response. Let's take a listen. 181 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 5: This is racist terrorism. We have to call it what 182 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 5: it is. We have to deal with the race issue. 183 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 5: We have to deal with the hate issue, and we 184 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 5: have it in the police department also. 185 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: Racism. 186 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 5: And as far as I'm concerned, terrorism because we saw them. 187 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 5: When I say them, I mean the Buffalo police. They 188 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 5: arrested that, the racist terrorists, with no problems whatsoever. But 189 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 5: then you have black men dying at the hands of 190 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 5: the police and they have no weapon at all. 191 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 3: So how do we process not only these incidents of 192 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 3: mass violence, but also these other systemic forms of white 193 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 3: supremacist terror. I feel like that's all it feels right now, 194 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: the last couple of years and beyond. I mean, how 195 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 3: do you how do you get through this? 196 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: Sorry, well, let me just say, you know, obviously I 197 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: think would happen in both New York and Texas to 198 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: those mostly elderly people and obviously those children, those you know, 199 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: black and brown people. You know, as a writer there 200 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: sometimes you just you can't even sort of even begin 201 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: to convey the pain, you know, and the terror. And 202 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: you know, those twin sort of mass shootings were that 203 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 2: for me. And I haven't been as active on social 204 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: media just because I can't even like, I can't even 205 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: sort of even bring myself to to really speak to this. 206 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,239 Speaker 2: But one thing I would say specifically about the structure 207 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 2: of racism itself is one of the ways we can 208 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 2: understand it is through the actual policies, through the ideas, 209 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 2: and through the violence. And what happens is, you know, 210 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: if you're black and brown person, you're constantly fed these 211 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 2: ideas that there's something wrong with you and people like you, 212 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: which then causes you to imagine that the conditions in 213 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: your communities are the result of what's wrong with you know, 214 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 2: your people when in reality it's these larger sort of 215 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 2: policies that are literally killing people. But somehow, some way, 216 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: if you're able to survive all these sort of lethal 217 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 2: policies that lead to all sorts of health disparities. You know, 218 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: black and brown people dying at the highest rates from 219 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: COVID nineteen. You know black and brown people being incarcerated 220 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: at the highest levels, being deported at the highest levels, 221 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 2: having you know, low life expectancy, and on and on. 222 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,719 Speaker 2: If somehow somewhere you're able to survive all of that, 223 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 2: then coming around the corner is a white supremacist with 224 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: an assault rifle coming to kill you because he's imagined 225 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: that you're a placer. Chances are your ancestors were here 226 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: before his. 227 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: And that he was able to buy the weapon legally, 228 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: that he was able to walk around with the weapon 229 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: without being seen as a threat. And that's part of 230 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: the systemic reality of it as. 231 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 3: Well, right, And the also systemic reality when you took 232 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 3: about a la days, you know, rural Texas, you can 233 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 3: throw a stone and you can you can see law enforcement. 234 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 3: And that's the other part of this, right, Even in 235 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 3: this over policing quote unquote protection, you're still seeing tragedy. 236 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: And I think one of the points that reporters and 237 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 2: scholars have consistently made, particularly over the last few years, 238 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 2: with this really explosion of research and writings on the police, 239 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 2: you know, is that you have all these resources dedicated 240 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: to American policing. I saw one study that found that 241 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 2: the cost of American policing is more than every other 242 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: military in the world except the US and Chinese militaries. 243 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: But still they still have a low clearance rate for homicides. 244 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: But still when you have a mass shooting, they're not 245 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: there to save the lives of children. 246 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: The thing is is that it is so shocking, right, 247 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: It is so profoundly, deeply shocking, and I think that 248 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: everybody in the country is still at some level dealing 249 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: with shock and trauma. And yet at the same time, 250 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: so many people have been talking about if you have 251 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: this kind of weaponry, and you have this kind of racism, 252 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: and you have this kind of hate, especially if you 253 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: are raised with this kind of hate like the murder 254 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: from Uvaldi, right, who also I think internalized a lot 255 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: of hate towards himself. Right, all you hear about is 256 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: you know how much you hate people who speak Spanish, 257 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: how much you hate the immigrants, how much you hate Mexicans, 258 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: how much you hate Latinos. At a certain point, you 259 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: know you internalize it. Which is interesting because your new book, 260 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: How to Raise an Anti RDE. Everybody needs to be 261 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: reading this book because it's calling on parents, on teachers, 262 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: on caregivers to protect children by in fact arming them 263 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: with the tools that they need to resist and challenge 264 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: the racial inequities, right and prevent them from internalizing racist messaging, 265 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: from realizing that they can in fact fight back, that 266 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: there are tools so that you don't internalize racism. Now, 267 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: the shooters in both Ewaldi and in Buffalo were eighteen 268 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: years old. We know that white supremacists specifically target and 269 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: recruit young white men who are disproportionately responsible for mass shootings, 270 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: but young people have also been the leaders in the 271 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: fight against racist policies. 272 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: Right. 273 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: This is the thing that gives you, me and Julio 274 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: so much hope, right because they lead the protest movements, 275 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: they're organizing against the book bands, they're activists through and through. 276 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: So we're going to listen now to Kelly Chroy, who 277 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: is an organizer for the March for Our Lives movement, 278 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: which has been advocating for gun control since the shooting 279 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: at the Maurie Stoneman Douglas High School in twenty eighteen 280 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: in Florida. So let's take a listen to Kelly Troy. 281 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 6: My peers and I are frankly done. We voted these 282 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 6: people into office on the belief that when they marched 283 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 6: with us in twenty eighteen, they really were marching for 284 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 6: our lives. Now, more than ever, it's clear that they 285 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 6: had been marching for themselves. Over one hundred and seventy 286 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 6: thousand people have died due to gun violence since Parkland. 287 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 6: And if all you can say to that is thoughts 288 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 6: and prayers, you have filled every young person in America 289 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 6: who made their voices heard four years ago. Every single 290 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 6: person in Congress has a more responsibility to pass the 291 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 6: Universal background Check bill, and their hesitance to do so 292 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 6: is a slap in the face to the young people. 293 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 6: They kept saying gave them hope for the future. Well, 294 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 6: now we're the present. We've always been the present, and 295 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 6: we're not afraid to give you hell until gun violence 296 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 6: is ended. 297 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: It's what's needed. I know that you're like when you 298 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: hear Kelly speaking, Ibram that you're list like, Okay, we 299 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: kind of got this, But the question is how do 300 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: we raise our children to be anti racist leaders in 301 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: the face of this white supremacy which is everywhere and 302 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: so structurally around us. So how do we do it? 303 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 6: Well? 304 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: I think it's first important for us to realize that 305 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 2: our children are young people, are the very group we're 306 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: the least likely to actively engage directly and verbally about 307 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: race and racism, even though they're the most vulnerable to 308 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 2: racist messages, and just as you know, they're the most 309 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: vulnerable to gun violence, right, But what are we doing 310 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: to protect them? And I think that there's so many 311 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 2: different things. Of course, we as parents need to ensure 312 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: that we are modeling anti racist behavior, because, particularly for 313 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 2: younger kids, the messages that they're receiving from their parents 314 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: are largely nonverbal, and the nonverbal things that we're saying 315 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: and doing are actually more influential than what we're saying. 316 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: So if we're walking down the street and a brown 317 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 2: man is approaching and we get scared and we're with 318 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 2: our child, we're speaking to our child. If our child 319 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 2: sees if we have, you know, a white parent and 320 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 2: we have a white child, and the only people we 321 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 2: invite over to our home as friends are white. Our 322 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 2: child is seeing something, I'll to seeing who we value. 323 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: If we're deciding to live in a particular neighborhood and 324 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 2: send our kids to a particular school in which you know, 325 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: certain people are excluded, our child is seeing that. So 326 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 2: I think first and foremost every decision that we make, 327 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: even when we're not saying anything about race, we're actually 328 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 2: saying quite a bit about race. And of course, in 329 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 2: addition to that, we have to actively recognize that by 330 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: three years old, our kids have an adult like conception 331 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:59,479 Speaker 2: of race, So they understand race as a construct, and 332 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 2: they're even beginning to attach darkness to negativity. By six 333 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 2: or seven, especially eight years old, our kids are beginning 334 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 2: to understand what a racist idea is. By eleven or 335 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: twelve years old, our kids are being able to understand 336 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:23,719 Speaker 2: racist discrimination. Teenagers Black teenagers are, according to studies, reporting 337 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: five instances of racist discrimination per day. As you stated earlier, Maria, 338 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 2: the you know, white teenage males are being recruited pretty 339 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: aggressively by older white supremacists. So the question is what 340 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:47,959 Speaker 2: are we doing as all of this is happening? 341 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: You got a responsibility, dear listener, every single one of us. 342 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 3: Right, But it kind of gets to something that I 343 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 3: know you're feeling. It's obvious that by advocating for anti 344 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 3: racism is a big structure. Right, This has to take 345 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 3: such a bigger effort because we know that throughout history 346 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,479 Speaker 3: you said, you know, the anti racist movement has always 347 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 3: been met with a response, a backlash from racist forces. 348 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 3: We're still living it, right, I mean, children in anti 349 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 3: racist education have often been the focal point of that reaction, 350 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 3: fear mongering when people say so called critical race theory 351 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 3: in schools and it's out there, right, people don't challenge that. 352 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 3: The assumption is if you're not challenging it, it means 353 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 3: you kind of believe. 354 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 2: Some of it. Right. 355 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 3: And the same white supremacist rhetoric and conspiracies that the 356 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 3: Buffalo shooter believes in have been echoed by conservative media. 357 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 3: Republican politics poles show that more than half of Republicans 358 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 3: believe in critical aspects of the great replacement theory. And 359 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 3: that's a conspiracy that immigrants and non white people are 360 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 3: being used to quote replace native born white Americans. Yeah, 361 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 3: And after the Buffalo shooting, Michael Harriet, who's been on 362 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 3: the show with us great Guests, appeared on Zerlina Maxwell 363 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 3: Show to unpack the long history of this kind of conspiracy. 364 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 3: So let's take a listen. 365 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 4: Yes, So when we look at history, we see like 366 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 4: the greatest period of racial terrorism in American history, Reconstruction 367 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 4: was sparked by this fear that you know in South 368 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 4: Carolina and Mississippi and Louisiana. Those were majority non white states. 369 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 4: After you know, the Fourteenth Amendment made freedmen and African 370 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 4: American citizens of the country, and that's what sparked the 371 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 4: violence of Reconstruction. So, you know, the nuance in this 372 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 4: although people have termed it as a conspiracy theory, the 373 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 4: demographic changes in America are true, right, Like white people 374 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 4: are going to be a minority in the next few years. 375 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 4: That is, you know, a demographic inevitability. But the idea 376 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 4: that there is a con conspiracy by the leftists or 377 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 4: the liberals or you know, the illubinati to take white 378 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 4: people out of the majority, to introduce immigrants and black 379 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 4: people and to give them power, that is the conspiracy theory. 380 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 4: And I think that we should acknowledge that there's kind 381 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 4: of a nuanced difference between the two. But it's always 382 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 4: been a fear since the beginning of America of a 383 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 4: non white majority taking over this country that they stole 384 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 4: from the indigenous people of America. 385 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 2: Of course. 386 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 3: I mean, you got called out your previous children's book, 387 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 3: Anti Racist Baby, right by Senator Ted Cruz during the 388 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 3: Katanji Brown Jackson Supreme Court hearings, and so you know 389 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 3: it's coming, right, you poke the white supremacy and it's 390 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 3: going to come back, and it comes back in different forms, 391 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 3: whether it's violent forms or whether it's you know, forms 392 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 3: in the media that are incredibly influential. So, like, how 393 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 3: can movements work through this to dismantle white supremacy and 394 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 3: push forward anti racist policy. 395 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I think we have to create those movements, 396 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: and the way we create those movements that are offensive, 397 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: meaning you know, we're literally trying to construct a new 398 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 2: type of society, trying to institute new types of sort 399 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 2: of anti racist policies. We're trying to ensure that people 400 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 2: in positions of power, you know, are committed to equity 401 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 2: and justice for all. We have to sort of support 402 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 2: and build organizations that are pushing obviously anti racist narratives 403 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 2: that allow people to recognize, you know, the solution of 404 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,239 Speaker 2: these structural changes. And I'm mentioning that because we are 405 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: in a time of withering attacks against those of us 406 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 2: who are saying the radical idea, I guess that the 407 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: problem is indeed these bad policies and not these so 408 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 2: called bad people. But we can't spend our time consistently 409 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: and constantly of battling and defending because we have to 410 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 2: sort of focus on creating and constructing. And you know, 411 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 2: and particularly in this moment where there's just this incredible 412 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 2: backlash against schooling, you know, and against telling the truth 413 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 2: and against you know, having black, brown, and indigenous and 414 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: gay and transgender and women writers and writing about anti 415 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 2: racism and feminism. And this is a moment in which 416 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 2: we have to double down, you know, on the work 417 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 2: that we're doing organizing around it, particularly for our kids, 418 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 2: because they are again the most vulnerable to these messages. 419 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 2: And I don't think people realize, like there are many 420 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 2: parents and teachers who are like, you know, racist ideas, 421 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 2: or this is just too sophisticated for young people to understand. 422 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 2: Darkest Ugly is a very simple idea that a two 423 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 2: year old can understand, right, the idea that people who 424 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 2: are not born in this country are bad people. That's 425 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 2: a very simple idea that a four year old can understand. 426 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: So we have to understand that if we don't share 427 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 2: with our children a different narrative, a different story, what 428 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 2: are they going to be told by the media. 429 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: In fact, that's one of the things that you were 430 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: saying in your book, which is like, so if they're 431 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: not learning something, it's like they're not being taught anything, right, 432 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: They're not getting this experience, and instead that void is 433 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: being filled by all of this horror and ridiculous size. 434 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: And by the way, when my therapist asked me when 435 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,959 Speaker 1: I was doing some deep therapeutic work and she was like, 436 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: what was the first trauma that you remember? And it 437 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: had to do around the issue of racism and exclusion. 438 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: It was because George Wallace was running for president. My 439 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: best friend was Jewish. We were in a black community 440 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: and we were like, where are we going to hide 441 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: if George Wallace becomes president? 442 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,479 Speaker 3: So this was when I was six years old, and 443 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 3: you understood. 444 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: It took cloud and there was no there was no Twitter, 445 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: there was no Facebook, there was no Instagram, there was 446 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: black and white television and somehow I got the message. So, Ibram, 447 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: as we begin to wrap up, you know, in your book, 448 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: you write a lot about your own journey and raising 449 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: your daughter, Imani, she was born in twenty sixteen. You 450 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: talk about your own family's experience with black maternal healthcare 451 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: tow Imani's first day of daycare. It's really beautiful the 452 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: way you weave your very personal story here. So what 453 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: are your hopes, you know, in the moments when you're like, 454 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: oh my god, there's so much possibility in our country 455 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: in those moments, In those moments, Ebram, what are your 456 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: hopes for the next generation of anti racists like your daughter, 457 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: like her peers, like my kids, Julio's kids. Yeah, what 458 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: do you what's the dream o vision there to me? 459 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 2: I think so our generation, particularly, you know, people of color, 460 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 2: who as they came of age as adults, were able 461 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 2: to begin to really shed many of the ideas or 462 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: self hate that they had internalized, you know, as children, 463 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 2: and we're able to begin to transform themselves as they, 464 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 2: you know, transform society. I'm hoping that our kids, that 465 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 2: this generation they don't have to do that, like they 466 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 2: will start right so much earlier and be so much 467 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 2: sharper and not have that type of baggage and not 468 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 2: have to spend so much time sort of looking in 469 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 2: the mirror and seeing the problem. And you know, like 470 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 2: my daughter who's six years old now, I mean, like 471 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 2: I remember the other day, my wife, Sidika, was showing 472 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 2: her a graduation ceremony because one of my wife's mentees 473 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: was graduating from medical school. And my daughter was like, 474 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: why isn't why aren't there any brown people here? Where 475 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: are all the brown people? 476 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: Wow? 477 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 2: And so you know, of course some parents would be 478 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 2: horrified by that, but I wasn't horrified because I want 479 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 2: her to see that that's a problem that needs to 480 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: be rectified, right, And we can't even begin to rectify 481 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: racism if we're teaching our kids that it's normal if 482 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: brown people are not graduating, so that's okay. And so 483 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: that's what I'm hoping for our kids, that they will 484 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: see these problems and see it much earlier, that no 485 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 2: kid of color will look at their skin color and 486 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 2: see that there's a problem, No white kid will think 487 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 2: that they're special because they're white, and begin you know, 488 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: transforming this world much earlier than we did. 489 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 3: We're going to move to our final segment and we 490 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 3: call it binge worthy or what are you binging on? 491 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 3: Because you know, we want to have a little joy 492 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 3: in this and I love what you're binging. 493 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: It will Ibram reveal the truth. We've had some very 494 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: interesting reveals from people who are like, why it's the 495 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: Kardashians or I'm a gardener, you know. I mean, we've 496 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: had really interesting reveals. So anything that you are binging 497 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: on that is helping you kind of be in this. 498 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: So what's your bingeworthy? 499 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 2: So? I think the last thing I really binged on 500 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 2: was this show on HBO Max called south Side. 501 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: Oh. 502 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 2: It's a comedy about these two black guys who work 503 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: for like a Renna furniture sort of place and they're 504 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 2: just sort of living their lives, trying to strive and 505 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: it's just so funny, you know, there's so many just 506 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 2: incredibly funny characters. It's set in South Side of Chicago. 507 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: My hood. 508 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know, I grew up on nineties 509 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 2: comedies and it really felt like a throwback, you know, 510 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: to a nineties comedy, and so yeah, we like this. 511 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 2: I think there's two seasons. We probably went through and 512 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 2: Binge watched them all in like two weeks. 513 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: That's a reveal, okay, because I'm like, I watched the CHI, 514 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: which is all about Southside High Park all of that. 515 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: I watched the CHI on Showtime. But I guess I 516 00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: gotta go found south Side. 517 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll watchings outside. I've seen it in the feed. 518 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 2: So just make sure you're not eating because there's gonna 519 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 2: be some laugh out loud moments. I don't want you 520 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 2: to choke anything and then you blame me. 521 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: So seriously, I'm joking to watch this comedy now. 522 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 3: Okay, the disclaimer has been made. Okay, it's all good. 523 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 3: It's all good. 524 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: The fact that it's like that funny and it's making 525 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: Ibram laugh, it's. 526 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 3: Like, okay, watch I'm watching this all right? 527 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: All right, Well, I love that doctor Ibram x Kenny, 528 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: very serious genius, renown anti racist scholar and author of 529 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: the new book How to Raise an Anti Racist? Thank 530 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: you so much for being real and for joining who 531 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: you and me on this episode of in the Thing. 532 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: Oh of course it's tru Leonana. 533 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: I'm Maria Nojosa and I'm h and remember, dear listener. 534 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: Go to Apple Podcasts to rate and review us because 535 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: this was like a seriously pretty incredible conversation learned so 536 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: so much. Remember you can also listen to In the 537 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: Thing on all major podcasts platforms. Check us out on 538 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: the web in thethink dot Org, follow us on Twitter 539 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: and on Instagram at in the Thick Show, Like us 540 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: on Facebook, and tell your friends and family to listen. 541 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: In the Thing is produced by Norsaudi Hashanahata, Lisa Salinez 542 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: and our fellow Sarah Hershander, with editorial support from the 543 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: Charlotte Manchin. Our audio engineering team is definitely the Bo 544 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: Julia Grusso and Gabriela Bias. Our marketing manager is Luis Luna. 545 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: Thanks to raoulvett Is for recording me. The music you 546 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: heard is courtesy of National Quet and zz K Records. 547 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: Dear listener, remember not de vayes and we'll see you 548 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: on our next episode. 549 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 3: Cha peace y'all. 550 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: For me. Sometimes it means a lot of f bombs 551 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: or some are not a few, I don't know. You 552 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: never know. 553 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 3: When she started doing this six years ago and like 554 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 3: Marina host us cursing on a podcast, don dunda 555 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 2: The opinions expressed by the guests and can tributors in 556 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,959 Speaker 2: this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect 557 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: the views of Futuromedia or its employees.