1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: we don't have a great show for you Today. Rebecca 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: Graham stops by to talk about her new book Access, 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: Inside the Abortion Underground and the sixty year battle for 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: reproductive freedom. But first we have Jessa Crispin to talk 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: about her new book, What Is Wrong With Men. Welcome 9 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: to Fast Politics, Jessa. 10 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm so pleased to be here. 11 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: I'm excited to have you too. 12 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 3: Your sub stack again. 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: This is just such a good title because it's really 14 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: like where I am in life is the culture we deserve? 15 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is. 16 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: First, let's talk about why originally I wanted to have 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: you here, But then we can talk about the plethora 18 00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: of other things you write about. But American men doing great. 19 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, thriving, flourishing. 20 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: And by the way, I hate this topic because I 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: think the entire culture is set up for men. You know, 22 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: there was a moment where white men were not absolutely 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: at the top of the pecking order, and they were 24 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: so angry that we got another Trump administration so I 25 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: want the caveat to live in the earth so that 26 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: everyone hears that while we are talking about how hard 27 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: it is to be the most privileged group of people 28 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: there are on the earth, we still understand how ridiculous 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: it is that they need this. 30 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: Sorry, Jesse, it's absolutely a strange phenomenon, because you're right, 31 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: we still have all these structures in place that not 32 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: only privilegemen and prioritize them, but still have an exclusionary 33 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: gatekeeping toward anybody who's not right. And clearly there are 34 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: all the markers of who runs the corporations, who runs politics, etc. 35 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 3: Who runs the world the world. 36 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: But the other ninety eight percent of men really aren't 37 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 2: doing very well, and in the sense of higher rates 38 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 2: of addiction, higher rates of suicide, meeting fewer educational markers, 39 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. Like you know, the statistics are 40 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: kind of always there. And there was really this enormous 41 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: shift that happened from the seventies to the nineties where 42 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 2: a lot of our institutions changed, the legal code changed, 43 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: the way that we manage the financial systems changed, and 44 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: women were in a position where because of the mainstreaming 45 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: of feminism. We're creating institutions and structures in order to 46 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 2: help women navigate these changes, and men didn't do any 47 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: of that. Men didn't do any of the cultural decisions 48 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: that need to happen when men are being asked to 49 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: live entirely different kinds of lives, because it is a 50 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: kind of different life in your marriage, if you're no 51 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: longer the patriarch, if you're no longer head of household. 52 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: So how do you figure out how to navigate those roles? Well, 53 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: there weren't any movies about that, there weren't books about that. Really, 54 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: women wrote books about how to navigate a different kind 55 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: of life, but men didn't have the same. Women have 56 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 2: nonprofits in order to help them deal with the new 57 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,679 Speaker 2: expectations for education, helping women succeed, helping women thrive. Men 58 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: didn't do that because they expected the institutions for work 59 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: to work for them exclusively, and when they stopped, they 60 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: were really sort of left. I don't want to say 61 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: a disadvantage, because I think that's too strong of a word, 62 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: but certainly flat footed. You didn't know how to adapt. 63 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: And I think also no one told them that they 64 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: would have to adapt. 65 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: So that is really interesting and important, and I want 66 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: to say, you know, I have all the kids and 67 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: two of them are boys, and you do see when 68 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: you're playing your kids to college, just how much there's 69 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: a man problem in higher education, right. They can't get them, 70 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: they can't you know, you have these colleges. And it's 71 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: even more true with if you look at the HBCUs 72 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: where they're having just a steep drop off in male admissions, 73 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: male applications, male admissions. So this is not a fake problem. 74 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,119 Speaker 1: This is like it's funny because I reread the book 75 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: Backlash recently, and one of the things that Backlash does 76 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: is it talks so much about how there are fake 77 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: like that the mainstream media created the mainstream media rip 78 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: you know personally, you know, I'm not going to criticize 79 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: them because they're so dead and it makes me so sad. 80 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: But they did in fact create crisises that weren't necessarily 81 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: happening in. 82 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 3: The real world. 83 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: Yes, now, this though, is actually something, and it's happening 84 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: unlike a lot of vis is where they're happening to 85 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: people who are disadvantaged, but not to happening to this 86 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: sort of upper middle class or the middle class. This 87 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: is really happening everywhere. There are things like men's rights 88 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: activists and the sort of media complex that has sprung 89 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: up from that. Can you talk us through sort of 90 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: how that was created, how that exists, and what that 91 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: says about where we are in the crisis. 92 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: That's also part of the problem is that while women 93 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 2: were sort of focused on adaptation, men got stuck in 94 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: grievance culture, and grievance culture became a huge industry. So, yeah, 95 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 2: men's right activism. Really it's weird because the MRA movement 96 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 2: came out of what was supposed to be men supporting feminism, 97 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: and so there were these groups that started that men 98 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: were like, you know what, women are changing what they want, 99 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: and we have to respond to this. We have to 100 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 2: figure it out. And you get a bunch of men 101 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 2: in a room and suddenly they start thinking, you know what, 102 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: I actually don't think women need these things that they're 103 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: asking for, and I think that this is an imposition 104 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: upon me. And so it really became going from a 105 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: pseudo feminist movement into an anti feminist movement where men 106 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: were sort of supporting each other in this idea that 107 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: actually they were the disadvantage ones that everything that women 108 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 2: were asking for was being taken from men. Rather than 109 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 2: having a kind of mutual sense of expansion, Women were 110 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: kind of expanding their sense of what their lives could 111 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 2: be like, and men did not take this moment as 112 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: an opportunity to think about it in that way. Instead, 113 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 2: so all of these different groups arose as far as 114 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 2: like men are the real victims of family court, men 115 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: are the real victims of sexual harassment. From there you 116 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: have the rise of the what we have now with 117 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: the manisphere. You have either on one side, you have 118 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: Jordan Peterson or someone like him offering this like fantastical, 119 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: nostalgic version of patriarch if we just go back to 120 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: if we just go back to the way things were, 121 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: they were so much better offering that kind of thing. 122 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: Or you have the Andrew Tait just like hyper violent, 123 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: hyper aggressive version of masculinity. And those are kind of 124 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 2: your two options, because there isn't something to weave between 125 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: that and say we have to rethink this, we have 126 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: to adapt, and men don't. They don't feel like they 127 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: have to adapt to the world as it is right now. 128 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: They think right now, I mean, you know, obviously I'm 129 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: speaking in generality in the widespread culture, you have winners 130 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: and losers, and the winners aren't really interested in helping 131 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 2: the losers, and the loser are so stuck in a 132 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 2: sense of what they should be having instead sense of grievance, 133 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: the sense that something has been taken from them that 134 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: they can't sort of just get it together and adapt 135 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: to the world as it is now. 136 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right and just a completely strange moment 137 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: to be in. 138 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 3: So I have this obsession. 139 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: My new obsession this week is the Andrew Breitbark quote, 140 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: and I have been working through it. But the politics 141 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: is downstream the culture because Trump won presidency both times 142 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: really by getting in the culture and then having the 143 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: culture dictate the politics. Trump one point zero. We had 144 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: a culture that was filled with resistance. Now we have 145 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: a culture this is terrified of politics because they're worried 146 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: you can't get in trouble. First of all, I want 147 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: you to talk about this culture, politics, trump ism. Answer 148 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: this question however you want. But you see what I'm saying. 149 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean trump Ism is not just a p 150 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: of men, though, is it. I mean, he's very popular 151 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: with women voters, and I think the culture that created 152 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: Donald Trump is very much a part of these changes 153 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 2: that were happening in the seventies and the eighties to 154 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: change the way investment banking works, to change the way 155 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: Wall Street works, to change the way that international financial 156 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 2: systems work, the way foreign policy works, etc. 157 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: Etc. 158 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 2: That is what sort of undergirds Donald Trump's success. And 159 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: then on top of that, of course, you know reality 160 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 2: TV and sort of sensational news rather than actual information, 161 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: all of that kind of it's all a part of it. 162 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: You can't really solve the problem just by getting rid 163 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: of Donald Trump. It's really where everything is sort of 164 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: structured to make Donald Trump successful or people like him. 165 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: And that's the worst part of it, because it's not 166 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: just about we win the next selection and everything goes better. Now. 167 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 2: There are deep fundamental changes that have to happen so 168 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 2: that we don't get conmon so we don't get a 169 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: circus buskers, we don't get snake oil salesmen, because that's 170 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: what our system rewards at the moment. 171 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 3: Trump comes from reality television. 172 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: He may have existed in Europe before that, but really 173 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: reality television is what kicked him to the next level. 174 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: As we look at sort of this culture creating politicians 175 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: maybe or elevating them. 176 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 3: Think of AOC. Where does that go? 177 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: Well, it's not just a reality television platformed Donald Trump. 178 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 2: Reality television really changed the way we look at everything. Right, 179 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: The whole idea of a red state versus a blue 180 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: state that was created by CNN the year that Survivor 181 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: really took over television, and they realize this is how 182 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: you get people to pay attention to This is if 183 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 2: you create kind of us against them, you create something 184 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: that people can root for. And so it's no longer 185 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: about the politics of oh, we need to pass like 186 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: a minimum wage raise in order so that people can 187 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 2: live lives of dignity, even if they have jobs that 188 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 2: we don't think of as being dignified. Now it's no 189 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 2: you know who wants that? AOC. You know who wants that? 190 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 2: The bidens the Clintons, and we are against them, and 191 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: so we are against minimum wage. It's it's everything became polarized. 192 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 2: And this whole idea that some people live in a 193 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: red state, some people live in a blue state is 194 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: completely fabricated by a news organization that was sort of 195 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: hopped up on the ratings of reality television. It sounds 196 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 2: kind of overly simplistic, and yet the way that that 197 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: moment has sort of changed the way we think about bipartisanship, 198 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: about politics in general, about tribalism in politicy. This is 199 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: my party, This defines me, this is my ideology, and 200 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 2: if you are against any aspect of my ideology, then 201 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: you are my enemy. Like, that's a completely fantastical invention 202 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: that only goes back, you know, twenty five years. 203 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, and that is certainly true. So there 204 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 1: were a lot of people at X and then they 205 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: were gone. Now there's sort of a question of like 206 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: where are people And they were people at Drudge. I 207 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: think there's still some movement of Drudge, but like where 208 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: are the people online? 209 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gotten really really clicky, right, It's gotten really 210 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 2: really sort of like some people are on Blue Sky 211 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: and they all kind of agree with one another. Some 212 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: people are on Reddit and they all agree with each other, 213 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 2: and some you know, so it's not just conservatives go 214 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: here and liberals go here. It's really sort of splintering 215 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 2: in a way that I think is going to be 216 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: increasingly difficult to manage, especially with the rise of like 217 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: the podcast that just produce like ten hours of content 218 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 2: a week, like, how do you keep on top of that? 219 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 2: And in some way that traps people because if there 220 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: is ten hours of content and it's your favorite thing 221 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: and you want to keep on top of it, it 222 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: keeps you from hearing any other voices. And it's kind 223 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 2: of like this mode of overproduction creates these cult like audiences. 224 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely Rogan has rolled turnout power like Rush Limbaugh did. 225 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: Where else is their political turnout power besides rogen? 226 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: The fear of right wing podcast is slightly overblown because 227 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: I don't think that a podcast versus you know, the 228 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 2: institutions of power can really do as much as people 229 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 2: are sort of afraid of In this moment, I think 230 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: people are sort of like look looking around for things 231 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: to blame, and I think that jer Vergan becomes like 232 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: a little bit of a scapegoat. But you know, the 233 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 2: New York Times has more subscribers than it's ever had, 234 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: and if it is failing to create turnout power based 235 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: on that, that's kind of their own fault, right, I Mean, 236 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,479 Speaker 2: that's something where they're not connecting. 237 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 3: Can I just push back for a second. 238 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: Sure. 239 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: One of the pieces of information we learned in this 240 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: election was that if you read a newspaper at all. 241 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: New York Time is all the way down to the 242 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: New York Post, which we'll use as the bottom, even 243 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: though probably there are things. 244 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: Worse than the New York Post. But I'm in New Yorker. 245 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: If you read any newspaper, you were like twenty five 246 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: percent more likely to support Biden. It may not be 247 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: driving turnout, and it may not have the numbers. I 248 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: mean as a country of three hundred and thirty million people, 249 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: So I just wonder where are all those other people? 250 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: Well, I'm well, where are the newspapers? I mean, I'm 251 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: from the state of Kansas. My town, my hometown is 252 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: lucky that it still has its local newspaper because the 253 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: regional papers and the papers that used to sustain the 254 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: towns around where I'm from have folded or they've cut 255 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: back to a biweekly publication rate or something of that nature. 256 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: And so the disappearance of newspapers is not because nobody 257 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 2: wants a newspaper. The disappearance of newspaper is because of 258 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: venture capitalism and private equity which bought up all of 259 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 2: these papers, strip them for parts, and then shut them down. 260 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: So it's an artificial news drought that is absolutely fixable, 261 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 2: but it's not an enormous money maker, and so people 262 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: are not really interested in doing it. But that's kind 263 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 2: of what has to happen. You have to rebuild infrastructure 264 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: and news media that is not just The New York Times, 265 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 2: which on an international scope they can't cover the problems 266 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: of the local sheriff skimming money and taking bribes in 267 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: a small town in Kansas. They're not interested. So you 268 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: do need organizations that are interested and invested, and I 269 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: think that is a fundamental piece of this recovery that 270 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: has to happen. But people don't want to do it 271 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 2: because it's hard and expensive. 272 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: That's right. 273 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. 274 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: Rebecca Grant is a journalist and the author of Access 275 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: Inside the Abortion Underground and the Six Year Battle for 276 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: Reproductive Freedom. Welcome to Bad Politics, Rebecca. 277 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 3: Thank you, Mollie. Thanks for having me. 278 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you. It is the three 279 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: year anniversary of the end of Row and you are 280 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: a tireless reporter. I just was reading a really great 281 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: piece you in teen Vogue. Teen Vogue is one of 282 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: the outlets that I am just so proud, makes me 283 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: so proud to work at Conte nast. I wonder if 284 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: you could talk about, like, you know, what the landscape 285 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: looks like right now. 286 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think it's pretty dire. Things are bad. 287 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 3: I mean, there's just like so many things that are 288 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 3: bad on so many different fronts, and so like there's 289 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 3: a lot of stuff that I've been following, you know, 290 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 3: even just in the past couple of weeks, like the 291 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 3: Adriana Smith case in Georgia, and like that awful tragic situation. 292 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: Just for the people who are not completely read in, 293 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: just give us the shorthand on that case. 294 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 3: Joanna Smith was a nurse in Georgia who went into 295 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 3: a hospital complaining of really severe headaches and then ultimately 296 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 3: she experienced brain death and she passed away. But because 297 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 3: she was nine weeks pregnant, the hospital believed whether or 298 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 3: not this was true, the hospital believed that they had 299 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 3: to try to keep her alive to the extent that 300 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 3: they were able to to in order that the fetus 301 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 3: could ultimately be delivered because of the abortion ban, and 302 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 3: so the family had that choice removed from them. And 303 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 3: I think that it's yet another troubling example of all 304 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 3: of the ways in which the Dobs decision has created 305 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 3: an incredibly dangerous situation for people who can get pregnant, 306 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 3: whether that means medically, whether that means they can't get 307 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 3: the type of pregnancy or abortion care that they need, 308 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 3: and legally as well, people are being criminalized for their 309 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 3: pregnancy outcomes. And that was happening before the Dobs decision, 310 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 3: but it's certainly escalated now there's information or there's data 311 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 3: about increases in anti abortion violence, which especially given what 312 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: happened in Minnesota last week and the fact that the 313 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 3: list there was a list of abortion providers that the 314 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 3: shooter also had, So that's really troubling. 315 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,719 Speaker 1: What you're talking about in Minnesota is the murder of 316 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: this former speaker of the Minnesota State House who was 317 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: a tireless advocate for women's RCT. 318 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, and the shooter apparently had a list of 319 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 3: other people that he was going to go after that 320 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 3: included abortion providers. And so that's an example of how 321 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 3: people who work for and fight for and provide abortion 322 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 3: care have been the target of extremist violence for decades 323 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 3: and decades. So that's something that is concerning. I think 324 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 3: the ongoing questions over whether MEFI pristone will remain an 325 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 3: FDA approved drug or something. 326 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 2: I've been and that. 327 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: Looks like there's a case coming up. Talk about that 328 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: for a minute, because I just that's important. There's been 329 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: efforts for years now. 330 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: I mean, I think a really prominent one happened in 331 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, which was a case that a sort 332 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 3: of random group of anti abortion lawyers kind of dreamt up. 333 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 3: But the Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine I believe the organization 334 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 3: was called claiming that if a pristone was dangerous and 335 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 3: that the initial approval of the drug in two thousand 336 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 3: had been rushed, which is absolutely nonsense. There's so much 337 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 3: data and research over so many decades all over the 338 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 3: world that sizes its safety. As part of this larger 339 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 3: effort to target abortion pills, because as I document in 340 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: the book, even though the impact of dobs has been 341 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 3: devastating and not everyone is able to get abortions and 342 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 3: they have to resort to other means, whether that's traveling 343 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 3: out of state or using telemedicine, the ability of people 344 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,479 Speaker 3: to access medication abortion has kind of been a game changer. 345 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 3: At the same time, whether they're doing it through telemedicine 346 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 3: or they're self managing with pills that they access from 347 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 3: community support networks, and so as a result of that, 348 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 3: the anti abortion movement has really made targeting abortion pills 349 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 3: one of their top priorities. 350 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: Talk to me about the book, Explain to me sort 351 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: of why you decided to write this book and how 352 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: you got here. 353 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 3: I was really interested in the reporting that I had done, 354 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: certainly before Dobs, but I think I really started to 355 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 3: focus on this after Dobs, on the stories of activists 356 00:20:55,320 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 3: who were fighting to keep abortion accessible regardless of the law, 357 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 3: in spite of the law, and that took a number 358 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 3: of different forms. But you know, we hear so much, 359 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 3: and I just spoke about how dire things are and 360 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 3: how kind of bad everything is. But also I think 361 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 3: the story of the past couple years after Dobbs is 362 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 3: one of incredible courage and resilience, Like there are so 363 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 3: many badass activists who were fighting before that decision and 364 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 3: have continued to fight, often putting themselves on the line 365 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 3: in order to make sure that people can access the 366 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 3: abortions that they need. And so so much of the 367 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 3: of like the coverage and the narrative over the years, 368 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 3: including a lot of stories that I've done have really 369 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 3: focused on politics and on the courts and the legal situation, 370 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 3: but both within the US and around the world, there's 371 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 3: this whole other movement around self managed abortion and about 372 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 3: making abortion available outside of the political legal medical system 373 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 3: that I think deserves a lot more attention because it 374 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 3: has had an incredible impact, both in terms of the 375 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 3: number of people it is enabled to access abortion and 376 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 3: restrictive environments, but also I think these networks, whether it's 377 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 3: telemedicine with you know, legal US clinicians, or whether it's 378 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 3: these sort of underground pell distributors, ultimately what they're doing 379 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 3: is they're subverting abortion bands, they're fighting back against abortion bans, 380 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 3: They're rejecting the idea that the government can dictate what 381 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 3: someone does with their body. And so I think that 382 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 3: they function kind of on multiple levels, and I was 383 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 3: really interested in how that happened and what that feminist 384 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 3: legacy was, because that's been true in Poland and Ireland 385 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 3: and Argentina and Mexico and after Dobs. There were two 386 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 3: kind of activists in particular that I focused on in 387 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 3: the book. One is doctor Rebecca Gomberts, who's a Dutch doctor, 388 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 3: and the other is Veronica Cruz who's an activist from Mexico, 389 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 3: and they really helped the US ecosystem kind of like 390 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 3: figure things out after dobs and get up and running 391 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 3: so that there were we for people in states of 392 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 3: demand abortion to access the medication safely after the decision. 393 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: It strikes me that now that we have the pills 394 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: being easier to access or fairly easy to access, the 395 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: people who are the most in danger from these abortion 396 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: bands actually are pregnant women because they are far enough 397 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: along often who want a baby, but something has gone 398 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: horribly wrong, and those women are too far along a 399 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: lot of times to get the pills, but not far enough, 400 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 1: you know, not far enough along to deliver the baby. 401 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: And so we see a lot of reporting about women 402 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: who either their lives are at risk or they die 403 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: or they have you know, they can't get and you 404 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: know they're bleeding out in a parking lot. We saw 405 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: a Republican woman who was in legislature blaming Democrats for that. 406 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw this story in the 407 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. I just wonder if you can talk 408 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: about sort of that moment these women who are as 409 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: someone who has had three children and who has had 410 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: very scary pregnancies. It strikes me that what has happened 411 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 1: as a result of the fall of Row it really 412 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: puts pregnant women in even more peril. 413 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And that's such a good point because something 414 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 3: that I'm really careful to make clear in the book 415 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 3: is that access to medication abortion is not some kind 416 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 3: of like panacea silver bullet situation. It is not going 417 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 3: to be a good option for everyone for a variety 418 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 3: of reasons. You know, someone who doesn't have a safe 419 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 3: home environment, for instance, it might not be a viable 420 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 3: option for them to receive the medication in the mail. 421 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 3: And to your point, folks who are leader on in 422 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 3: pregnancy or have more complicated pregnancies or situations, the pills 423 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 3: are also not going to be the best option for them. 424 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 3: And there's been a whole bunch of research that has 425 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 3: come out about the impact of dobs on maternal mortality rates. 426 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 3: And I believe that in states with abortion bans, the 427 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 3: maternal mortality rate has is something like twice that of 428 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 3: states without abortion bans. The rates of sepsis have gone 429 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 3: up significantly, I mean sepsis. There's kind of this this 430 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 3: idea that abortion care is not part of the broader 431 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 3: spectrum of reproductive health care that we've been hearing anti abortion, 432 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 3: you know, politicians talk about for a long time, but 433 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 3: that is just completely untrue for anyone who has the 434 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 3: most basic knowledge of the way that pregnancy or child 435 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 3: birth works. There's so many reasons why people might need 436 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 3: a procedure to save their lives, or they might need 437 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 3: a procedure in order to maintain their future fertility, or 438 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: because they receive some sort of fetal diagnosis that I 439 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 3: should be up to down whether they want to make 440 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 3: that decision, And all these states that have banned abortion 441 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 3: are taking that decision making capacity away from both the 442 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 3: patient and for the doctors who want to be able 443 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 3: to treat them. And so as a result, you also 444 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 3: have all of these obgyns who are leaving states with 445 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 3: abortion bands because they feel like they can't practice in 446 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 3: a way that feels in line with their medical ethics. 447 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 3: So I know that like in Idaho, for instance, like 448 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 3: something like one in five obgyns had left and there 449 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 3: were already maternity care deserts there. Pesians have been advised 450 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 3: to get airlift insurance in case they are in a 451 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 3: situation where they need a life saving abortion if they 452 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 3: live in one of those states. And so we live 453 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 3: in a country where maternal mortality is already so much 454 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 3: higher than it should be. I mean, my first book 455 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 3: was about maternal healthcare and about how our rates of 456 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 3: maternal mortality are way out of line with other countries 457 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 3: that are sort of, you know, in that high income, 458 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 3: industrialized category, and we're one of the few countries where 459 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 3: our maternal mortality rates have gotten worse. And then you 460 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 3: add the dangers of dobs on top of that, because ultimately, 461 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 3: you can never legislate every single pregnancy complication that might arise, 462 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 3: Like you can never say, oh, a life saving abortion 463 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 3: for this condition is okay, but not for this one. 464 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 3: I mean that should be up to doctors and their 465 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 3: medical judgment. 466 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: What you have here is doctors afraid of legislators, Republican legislators, 467 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: which is no way to practice medicine. 468 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 3: Fair. Yeah, absolutely, And I mean there've even been cases 469 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 3: where essentially like women and their doctors have called politicians bluff. 470 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 3: So I think the case of Kate Cox in Texas 471 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 3: was sor the illuminating one in which she received a 472 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 3: diagnosis and she and her husband decided that the best 473 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 3: course for their family was to end the pregnancy, and 474 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 3: brought a case to get clarity from a judge in 475 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 3: Texas as to whether they the doctor was able to 476 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 3: provide her with an abortion without being subject to some 477 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 3: form of prosecution. And then the court denied their case. So, 478 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 3: I mean they essentially called the bluff. They said, you know, 479 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 3: you say that the abortions are like exceptions are allowed 480 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 3: in X, Y and Z reasons, but then it was 481 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 3: clear that they weren't. And so that's just another reason 482 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 3: why this idea of exceptions that anti abortion and politicians 483 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 3: try to use to make their policies seem more warm 484 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 3: and fuzzy or just total bullshit. 485 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: Right, how old are you? Theres you thirty eight? So 486 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: you're I'm forty six, which I love to talk about 487 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: how old I am and we are this you know, 488 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: we're about the same generation. We're a generation that had 489 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: row right, we had it until we didn't. And I 490 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: just would love you to talk about sort of where 491 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: we are as women, where we are as feminists, what 492 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: it looks like. I mean, I feel like the Trump 493 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: administration has definitely been very misogynistic in a lot of 494 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: its legislation, but I don't know that We've had so 495 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: many public conversations about misogyny, and I'm wondering we've seen 496 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: them be much worse to other people, right, in much 497 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: more of a flagrant way. You know, I had this 498 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: colonel on who is losing her job because she's trans. 499 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: I've had you know, I've for sure had seen a 500 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: lot of cruelty from this administration. But I'm wondering able 501 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: to talk about just the misogyny underlying misogyny that comes 502 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: from this war on choice and also just sort of 503 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: expand on that however you want. 504 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that abortion bands. I mean 505 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 3: something that one of the activists said to me. I 506 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 3: think it was Vero in Mexico, but something that she 507 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 3: said was to frame abortion bands as a form of 508 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 3: like state sanctioned gender based violence. And I thought that 509 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 3: that was so interesting, Like it kind of blew my 510 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 3: mind a little bit, because ultimately, it is a government 511 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 3: that is saying both, we do not trust you to 512 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 3: make the decisions that are right for you. We believe 513 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 3: that we know better than you what is best for 514 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 3: you and your family. And it's also part of I 515 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 3: think a broader misogynistic effort to keep women in their place, 516 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 3: to maintain this like gender binary and essentialism and sort 517 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 3: of saying that like, if you can get pregnant, then 518 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 3: that is your lot in life, and you will be 519 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 3: punished if you have I don't know, nonprocreative sex, like 520 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 3: I mean, that's ultimately what they're saying. And I think 521 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 3: that there's no way to separate abortion bands from misogyny. 522 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 3: I mean, they're just like completely interlaced, and you can't. 523 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: I just don't know how you could sort of see 524 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 3: an abortion band as being rooted in anything other than 525 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 3: a disregard for women's dignity and autonomy in their lives. 526 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 3: And I think that something that was really interesting to 527 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 3: me as I was reporting the book was Part one 528 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 3: is a lot of kind of pre Row history, and 529 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 3: it goes up to the eighties, so after Row, where 530 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 3: I talk about how the abortion pill was invented. But 531 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 3: I was doing all of this research into some of 532 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 3: these underground activist networks that were kind of cropped up 533 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 3: in the sixties in the early seventies that were part 534 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 3: of the second wave feminism and the ways that they 535 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 3: talked about that many of these activists talked about abortion 536 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 3: and some of the tensions that were involved in the 537 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 3: fight and the things that they felt like were important. 538 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 3: And there were activists in the sixties who were talking 539 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 3: about abortion on demand, for free, without apology, and that's 540 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 3: a message that still feels pretty radical today. And it's what, 541 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 3: I mean, what fifty sixty years old at this point. 542 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 3: And so I think that the thing that we have 543 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 3: been trying or like the movement has been trying to 544 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 3: fight for. I think there was this way enrich Row 545 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 3: did create a little bit of complacency, and I think 546 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 3: that sort of that memory of what those activists were 547 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 3: doing back then, I was sort of surprised, I guess, 548 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 3: I would say, by like how radical some of the 549 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 3: things that they were saying and things that they were 550 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 3: doing were. And then also while I was reporting, something 551 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 3: that was so interesting to me as I was reporting 552 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 3: on the some of the underground or community support networks 553 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 3: that are active now and distributing pills, is that many 554 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 3: of the people involved, not all, but many are older women, 555 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 3: women in their sixties, seventies. There was one woman in 556 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 3: her eighties. And I think that there's a number of 557 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 3: reasons why they've gotten so involved in some of this 558 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 3: legally risky early kind of legal gray area work. Some 559 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 3: of it is because some of them feel like, my 560 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 3: children are grown, I'm retired, I'm in a financially stable position, 561 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 3: and so I probably have less to lose, less to 562 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 3: lose than someone who is younger and you know, sort 563 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 3: of still figuring things out. But also they have this 564 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 3: memory of what it was like to live before ROW, 565 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 3: and I think that that made them kind of radical 566 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 3: in a way that felt really just like compelling and moving, 567 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 3: and so they were totally there to step up. At 568 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 3: the same time, I think that there are activists like 569 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 3: folks in the abortion fund movement and in the reproductive 570 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 3: justice movement who have been really pushing for the kind 571 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 3: of movement overall in what it's trying to fight for. 572 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 3: And I think that goes back a little bit to 573 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 3: the sense of complacency. Like I think, so if there 574 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 3: was this idea that we had ROW, and so even 575 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 3: if there was the High Amendment in place and so 576 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 3: you know that excluded women who are on Medicaid from 577 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 3: having their abortions covered, or even if like all these 578 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 3: states before DOBS had gestational limits or limits on minors 579 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 3: the accessing healthcare that that stuff was kind of okay 580 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 3: because it was necessary to maintain the status quo. And 581 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 3: so I think where things are moving now and have 582 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 3: been moving for a long time, largely due to the 583 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 3: tireless kind of advocacy of the reproductive justice movement, is 584 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 3: saying like, we don't have to accept these scraps, we 585 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 3: don't have to accept limits, and bands like we can 586 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 3: fight for something that's much bigger. We can fight for 587 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 3: abortion on demand without apology, which was, like I said, 588 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 3: the same thing that those activists from the sixties we're 589 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 3: fighting for. 590 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,479 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 591 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best 592 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 593 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 594 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. 595 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.