WEBVTT - Ep. 510: On Nature and Suffering with Werner Herzog 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:13.320 If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:18.360 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast, you 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:24.080 can't predict anything presented by First Light, creating proven versatile 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:28.080 hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear. For 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:35.680 every hunt, First Light, Go farther, Stay longer. I want 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:38.640 to start this show out by saying this me Eater's 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.000 American history, The Long Hunters seventeen sixty one to seventeen 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:43.600 seventy five is out. 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:43.880 Now. 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:46.080 When you get to the end of this episode, you're 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:50.000 gonna hear a long I don't wanna call it long. 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.479 You're gonna hear a very good explanation of what this 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:54.720 project is and why you want to buy it. Just 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:56.800 be prepared for that, Like when you get to the 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.480 end of the episode, get your credit card out and 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:01.800 go to wherever you buy your audiobooks, because you're gonna 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.800 be like, damn, I'm buying that. So get to the 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:06.560 end and I'm gonna tell you a lot about it. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.120 I'm gonna just convince you just how good it is. 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.039 It's really good. We've been talking about it a long time. 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.759 This is narrated by me Steven Arnello and Clay Nukem 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:20.640 from the Bear Grease podcast, and it is a audio original. 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.760 It's like an audiobook that you listen to, okay, and 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:28.280 it's called Meat Eater's American History The Long Hunters seventeen 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.320 sixty one to seventeen seventy five. It tells one of 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:36.760 the most bloody, hair raising stories of hunting in American history. 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:41.039 It's out now, but listen to the show. Enjoy the show, 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:42.880 but know that at the end of the show that 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:45.360 you're about to listen to, I'm gonna give you the 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:49.560 sales pitch to end all sales pitches, so you can 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:51.880 if you're not convinced, you can listen and be convinced, 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:53.640 or you can just know that you'll be convinced and 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:55.480 buy it now. I don't really care. I just want 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:57.360 you to get it and start listening because this is 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:59.280 one of the things that I've made that I'm most 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.360 proud of. Meet Eater's American History The Long Hunters, available 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.400 now and explained in greater detail at the end of 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:15.680 the show. Is to stay tuned, everybody. I'm very, very 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.440 excited to announce that I am seated here with the 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:24.040 writer and film director Werner Herzog, who's made over sixty 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:28.040 films and documentaries, including many I'm sure you heard of, 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:32.160 and a bunch of them that you better have seen. 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:38.320 Little Deader Needs to Fly Rescue Dawn, the famous in 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:42.679 my circle of people, Grizzly Man, Happy People, cav of 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.320 Forgotten Dreams, which I believe is your only film that 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:48.200 I managed to catch when it released in a theater 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:53.400 in New York Cava Forgotten Dreams. His films deal with extremes, 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:57.480 with struggle, with absurdity, with madness, with happiness, and many 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.600 are fused, in my opinion, with a very unique perspective 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:09.080 on nature in the natural world. If you read about Herzog, 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:14.480 you'll often find writers describing it his work as man 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:19.440 against man, against nature, man versus nature. We'll find out 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:21.720 if he describes it that way. I'm guessing he doesn't, 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:24.760 as I believe that description would imply that nature is 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:29.880 aware of man as an adversary. Mister Herzige, a couple 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:35.600 of your own quotes, the universe is monstrously indifferent to 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.720 the presence of man. You also once said, I believe 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:44.400 the common denominator of the universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:49.360 and murder. Now, many documentarians who deal with the natural 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:54.520 world I find personally seem to reflect the relationship with 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.720 nature sometimes feels to me as though it's as though 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.960 it's taught, as though it's something they picked up or 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:08.680 learned from their peers. It's oftentimes political. But our guest 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.960 here today, I feel that the things he has to 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:13.680 say about the natural world and the way that the 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:19.440 natural world plays into his movies is wholly original influence 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:24.120 me immensely, not just as a writer or TV person, 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.560 but as a human. I'd say, for me on par 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:33.120 with Cormick McCarthy, because both have these immense bodies of 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:38.720 work that interplay together as something that is not schizophrenic, 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:45.080 meaning they carry this sort of intellectual trademark. And the 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:46.880 last little bit of introduction I'll saying this is a 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:51.920 very inside joke. When I'm arguing with production people, which 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:54.160 I do in my line of work, I've a lot 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:59.440 of times dealt with camera guys producers that want to 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.320 catch the entirety of a process, and if they can't 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.880 catch the entirety of a process, they don't want to 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.400 use it. And I will say to them in shorthand. 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.800 I will take a line from Happy People and I 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:18.560 will say the nets were set the night before, because 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.080 there's a scene in Happy People which chronicles the lives 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:26.520 of Siberian fur travers and subsistence hunters, and there's a 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:30.839 scene that opens where they're just checking a net, and 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.000 my camera guys would have been like, well, we can't 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:37.440 use that. We never saw you set the net, to 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.600 which I will refer them to Happy People, and I 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:42.880 will say to them, the nets were set the night before. 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:48.680 And that's it. Go on with your movie. Go on 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.560 with your movie. I want to start our conversation talk 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:58.080 a little bit about your your childhood, which I was like, like, 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.320 I said, my avenue to you and your work. It's 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.400 just been your movies. I've been a fan of your 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.640 movies for such a long time, and it wasn't I 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.840 read your new book, which I haven't finished yet. It 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:13.000 started a new book. It's every Man for Himself and 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:17.960 God against all your life. Yeah, I didn't realize the 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.520 extent of the poverty that you grew up in. 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:27.520 Well, it's easy to imagine when you grew up at 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.640 the end of the Second World War and then mostly 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.760 post war time and you have to imagine a scenario 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.960 where everybody here in the country, in the United States 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:43.560 is very well aware how Ground zero looked at ninety eleven. 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:49.000 After nine eleven, complete devastation, but very limited, a very 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:53.240 limited area on the island of Manhattan. But you have 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:58.240 to imagine a whole country Germany, where seven hundred twenty 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:04.000 or so cities were wiped out, the entire cities, some 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:10.240 of them not as completely. For example, Munich, where I 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:15.520 was born, was only eighty eighty five percent flattened and destroyed. 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:21.960 And it was one of these Allied bombing raids, carpet 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:28.800 bombings that hit our neighborhood and everything around destroyed. And 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:33.440 I was only two weeks old, fourteen days old, and 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:38.600 where we lived was partially destroyed, and my mother picks 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.400 me up from my cradle, which was covered with about 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:48.800 a foot high shards of glass and bricks and debris. 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:53.320 But I was unhurt, And of course you get when 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:58.480 your mother, you're naturally are scared. And she fled with 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:03.400 my older brother and me into the remotest mountain valley 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.960 in the Alps in Bavaria. 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.400 And your dad had split out on you guys, Your 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:10.920 dad wasn't in the picture at this time. 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:12.840 He wasn't in the picture. Well, he was in the 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:17.760 war when I was born. I was born nineteen forty two. 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:24.320 The war was over nineteen forty five, and when he 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:28.960 came back very soon divorced, and my mother was a 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:33.080 singing a singing mother and had to raise Then she 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:37.000 had another boy, my younger brother, so she had to 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:41.280 raise three children, and there was never enough to eat. 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:44.640 What I remember very well is starving. 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:50.480 Yeah, you tell a story of a lesson you learned 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.160 about nagging your mother, You and your brother nagging your 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.560 mother about how hungry you were, and her saying, if 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.199 I could take it from my ribs, I would take 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:00.120 it from my ribs. 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.160 Yeah, but I can't. But I can't, And you shut 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:07.200 up boys in me. Of course that that was a 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:12.880 serious moment, and it's engraved in my memories. So and 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.520 and of course it was not only food. We had 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:22.920 literally nothing. For example, we don't have didn't have mattresses. 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:28.360 My mother stuffed burlap sacks with hay that she made 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.440 from fern. But when you cut the stem of a fern, 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:37.320 it hardens when it dries, it hardens like the tip 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.880 of a shark. Yes, she cut it with a side 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.920 and it you would feel it at night when you 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:49.840 shifted around, all of a sudden you were on two 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:56.880 pencils that were stings stinging you. And and fern also hardens. 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:02.040 It's not like hay more fluffy. It becomes almost like cementing. 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:06.839 You have this little dents and I had to navigate 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:11.480 the dents in my mattress. So my entire childhood, I 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:15.520 never had a flat surface on which I slept. And 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.440 we had no running water. You had to go to 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.480 the well with a bucket and bring in the water 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:27.520 in no sewage system, no heating, no toy, no real 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:31.360 I mean a toilet, but an outhouse which was adjacent 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:35.520 to this little to this little house where we grew up. 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:39.040 And you talk about eating a someone killing a crow 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.400 or a raven. Yes, yes, and you're being surprised by 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:47.160 the the seeing fat, yeah, fat on a soup broth 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:48.880 and being surprised but fat. 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.839 I never had seen anything like this until today. This 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:59.000 means wealth. For example, the first time I ate a 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:03.720 fried egg, what an ache in my life. I must 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:08.120 have been about ten or eleven, and it was like 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:12.439 an incredible feast. Never ate a chicken for me. Even 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.280 I see, and even you see, even when you drive 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:21.760 by the fast food Kentucky right chicken finger licking good, 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.400 and it makes an impression on me because chicken means 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:28.400 the definitive feast. 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:35.400 You mentioned another detail of your mother getting a loaf 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:40.840 of bread with food coupons or I describe them, but 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:46.160 then scoring the bread right in seven segments for each 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.560 day so that she would part she would partition the 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:53.720 breadh as the week's ration of bread. And in that 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.560 passage you mentioned you don't elaborate on it, and I 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.520 was looking for you to elaborate on it that you 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:06.839 said that you have no tolerance for the culture of complaint. 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:13.560 Sure, yeah, yeah, I get it, But explain that to me. Well, 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.600 I cannot make it the norm. How I grew up, 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:22.680 it was an unusual, unusual childhood because it was in 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:28.960 the aftermath of a catastrophic war that Germany actually had started, 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:35.679 and the catastrophe came from our own people, from our society, 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:36.520 from our. 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:44.280 Leader adult Fitland. It was it was really so bad 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:49.160 that we knew now what we got. We got, and 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.800 each one of us had a thin slice of bread 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:56.880 per day, and the kind of grooves that my mother 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.160 carved into the loaf of bread. We knew this was 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.840 the only thing we have, and of course she would 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:12.040 also make some food from dandelion leaves and from syrup 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:17.920 from some trees and replacing sugar which we didn't have. 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:25.000 So when I see in our kind of society's western 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.640 highly technical societies where a lot of food is being 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.280 thrown away in the United States, I think more than 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.640 forty percent of food, and I find it outrageous. And 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.480 I never say anything because it was my experience and 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:46.840 I know the value of food. I now there's something 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:52.360 which has to be honored, and it in a way, 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.440 it pains me when I see so much food being 0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:01.160 thrown away. Because of my experience, it was unusual, but 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.320 I never I never speak out loud. 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:05.040 But you. 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.720 Know, for God's sake, I would be the last one. 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:13.599 That's not in my nature. Because you have to determine 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:17.240 how you live and whether you live a life of 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:23.960 consumerism or whether you are more cautious with wasting resources 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:28.720 that we have. And I think when you are in 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:36.560 other societies hunters and gatherers, they are more careful and cautious. 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.920 There's no doubt in my heart, because that's how we've 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:49.680 organized as biological creatures. And so how can I say. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:56.320 I see people in the restaurant complaining to the waiter 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.520 that this wasn't any good and give it back to 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.240 the kitchen, and so I don't like this complaint. And 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:08.160 it's not only about food, it's about whatever. Our lives 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:13.640 are so difficult, and gasoline has become so expensive, into 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.440 all these things. Yes, deal with it, deal with it 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.400 in the right way, but don't complain too much. 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.240 There was a I got two questions stacked up in 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:24.960 my head and when I was going to ask you, 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.240 and when I thought about asking you and decided not to. 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.080 But now I'm going to ask you because you alluded 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:30.240 to it. 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:31.600 Uh. 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.680 My father fought in World War Two serving the European 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:45.480 Theater and maintained, I don't want to say we we 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.360 joke about it now, but maintained a deep suspicion of 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.760 Germany through to the end. Rightly, So zero for Japan, 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.080 didn't zero for Japan. Father? Well, no, no, no, I'm not 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.320 gonna that. But what was the It's kind of like, 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:03.040 outside of a subject matter, I'm like anything, but or 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:08.640 that I'm an expert on but what was the How 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.320 did you perceive when you're thrust in at a young age, 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.760 when you're thrust into such like this, this devastating situation, 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:19.200 and so many of your countrymen are being killed, your 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.840 cities are being destroyed, You're starving. What is your perception 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.200 of Germany? Is it gone? 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.880 No? No, of course not. I'm still a German citizen. 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.320 No, no, I'm saying at that time, how are people 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:35.040 feeling about? 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:35.240 You know? 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.760 I mean, is this all happening to them? Is it 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:41.360 a thing they created? That was your mom's perception? 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:45.120 It's a different response some of them. You still until 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:50.240 today you have denious You even have Holocaust denials, which 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.320 is the most absurd of all, because it's one hundred 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:58.920 thousands of times documented survivors are there, the bodies were found, 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:04.959 I mean, and and a crime of proportions that the 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:09.119 world has never seen in any country throughout the entire 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:13.400 history of the human race. Nothing like that has ever happened. 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.639 So you, of course, you have to ask yourself what 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:22.840 went wrong? What made Germany lapse into a culture from 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:28.800 a very solid culture of philosophy, mathematics, writers compose us, 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.840 you just name it. How does it lapse into a 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:36.399 culture of barbarism within very few years. So of course 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.600 that gave me to think, and of course it has 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:45.000 importance always rest something is resonating from from that in 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:46.360 my entire existence. 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:51.760 But where the pot? What was your sense of or 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:53.439 perhaps this would be a question that you'd have to 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:57.639 answer on your mother's behalf. Where what was the sense 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.159 of blame? There was the blame the wise was the 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:05.120 blame on England the US for doing this? 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:14.160 No, I think the overwhelming, the overwhelming part of the 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:21.600 population knew it was self inflicted. And you have to 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.480 also see one strange thing when you speak about Germany. 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.560 As a child, and even when I was six and 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:33.000 eight years old, I didn't know that Germany existed, that 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.440 there was such a thing like Germany. For me, this 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:41.400 valley in the mountains that was the world. And beyond that, yes, 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.920 there was Austria because a border was close, and some 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:50.399 young men, that bold young men would secretly smug goods 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:54.000 from Austria into Germany, and some of them were my 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:59.600 childhood heroes. But I did not notice. I had no 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:04.640 concent except that there were countries, I mean Austria, tiar role. Yes, 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:10.280 our valley and something beyond it. And my very first 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:15.080 memory that I have about I was must have been 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:21.280 two and a half years Allied bombers hit the city 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:25.080 of Rosenheim, and my mother took us out of bed, 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.520 and it was in middle of the night ice colt 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.919 must have been March or April. Still snow out there 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.240 and very fine. The distance at the end of the 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:41.359 valley you could see the entire sky, not burning, not flickering, 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:45.879 so a very slow pulsing of red and orange. And 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:50.960 she said, boys, the city of Rosenheim is burning. But 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:56.240 the city of Rosenheim is forty miles away that far, 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:00.479 an entire city burning, And for me it was a 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:05.560 very essential moment because I apparently started to understand there's 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.960 a world. There's a world out there, not our valley 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:15.000 alone and not the waterfall in the ravine behind the home, 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.320 that there was something out there that was different and 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:22.679 dangerous and burning, and there was such a thing like 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:27.840 a war. Of course, we saw American soldiers coming in, 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:33.560 but they were very genial with kids and befriended the kids. 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.840 And for the first time I saw an African American 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:43.760 and I was completely enthralled. A huge, big, big guy 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.480 with a big, resonant voice. A little bit. I could 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:53.119 always compare him to Shaquille O'Neill, a very very big 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:58.399 man with a very big heart and a wonderful voice, 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:03.080 a soft, wonderful voice. That was that was for us. 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:08.480 We only knew it from fairy tales. The moors, oh 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:10.960 the more and there was a more and that was 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:16.280 completely completely fascinated and I knew, yes, it's true that 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:20.920 some foreign countries like Africa and you have the moors, 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:45.760 and there are moors in America. How about that. 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:40.160 That particular city that burned that the story you're telling 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:45.000 your book demonstrates a little bit of the of a 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:52.280 different perspective on collateral damage then you see in warfare today, 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:56.159 where in warfare today there's so much public emphasis on 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:01.679 not you know, targetings of billions where you're hitting, and 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:04.480 you're telling that story that Allied bombers are actually trying 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.160 to get to a different place entirely, yes, and they 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.199 can't get over the mountains because of the weather, and they 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:10.200 just find a town. 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.479 Ye sure, and they they want to return to the 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:19.399 base empty. And it was probably the reason why the 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:25.960 city of Rosenheim was destroyed in a gigantic contralt contra flagration. 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:34.520 So but only later let me add up one thing 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:43.119 with a sky in the distance pulsing in flames. It 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:46.920 made me curious, and I knew there was something out 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:51.560 I wanted to to understand. I wanted to learn so 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.080 and that's why I moved out, and that's why I 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:59.080 have been so much around. And it's very strange because 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.439 people ask me, why can you say that you are 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:07.480 a writer. And I have always maintained that my writing 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:13.520 will live longer, my prose, my poetry will probably live 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:20.160 longer than my films. How do you somehow compare that 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:25.359 why it is a conflict between filmmaking. No, it is not. 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:31.080 And I have a simple almost like a formula, films 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:35.560 on my voyage and writing is home. 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:40.320 Oh that's your Your films are your forays out into 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:40.680 the world. 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:42.399 Yeah, writing is home. 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:46.200 Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. That brings 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:49.280 it to a question that I was hoping to share 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:52.719 with you, to ask about, Like I said, I had, 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:55.080 I was unfamiliar with the level of poverty that you 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:56.040 that you grew up in. 0:23:58.080 --> 0:23:59.639 Oh it doesn't it doesn't matter. 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:03.600 No, no, no, this is no no, no, no. 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:06.840 I don't want to be commiserated for children. It was 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:11.400 a wonderfully incredible time and we had to take responsibility. 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:14.600 We had to go out foraging. We were the ones 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.959 who would catch trout in the creek, but since we 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:23.119 had no fishing gear, we caught them by hand. You 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:33.240 can catch trout slow movement, and they flee under under stones, 0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:39.159 They take refuge under under tufts of grass overhanging into 0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:42.400 into the creek, into the water, and you know where 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:45.760 they're hiding, and you have to be very very patient 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:49.439 and cautious, and you actually can catch them with their 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:55.800 own hands. People think I'm making it. You have probably 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:56.720 done it yourself. 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:01.840 When so considering that that that childhood, it made me 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:09.400 rethink you're film Happy People. Yes, And within the last 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:11.600 day or two, maybe it was even our producer Krinn 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:16.959 or Phil the engineer here, I mentioned happy People and 0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:20.040 he said, you mean that I remember who he said. 0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:22.399 They said, you mean the people that seem miserable but 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:26.720 they're happy. And I wondered about that or some joke 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:29.640 like that, meaning I just remember watching Happy People, which 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:33.040 is about Siberian hunter gatherers and fur trappers, and just 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:40.000 seeing someone carpeted into mosquitos. I mean it was like 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:43.200 they had apparel, like they're apparel was made of mosquitos, 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:48.960 you know, but just working away and uh, without complaint, Yeah, 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:51.600 without complaint. And that's what I thought about, because because 0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:56.639 in Happy People, there's no no person meditates on the 0:25:56.680 --> 0:26:00.760 meaning of happiness. No person says, well, you know, in 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:04.320 spite of appearances, I'm quite happy. There's no matter. It's 0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:07.679 just the title, it's Happy People. But then it's this 0:26:07.840 --> 0:26:12.040 portrait of people. And and no, a viewer would not 0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:14.359 watch Happy People and someone said, what did you watch 0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:16.520 a movie about, they wouldn't say, I watched the movie 0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:18.280 about these very happy people. 0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:23.280 Yes, and not only happy, they are dignified. They lead 0:26:23.520 --> 0:26:28.280 a life full of dignity, of awe, of wonder, of nature, 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:33.240 of being out there, a life that takes a lot 0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:37.800 of deep meaning. I envy them. And when I see 0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:41.000 them in on a on a screen, there's only one wish, 0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:42.920 old man, I would like to join them. 0:26:43.160 --> 0:26:44.879 Oh yeah, I can see that. 0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:51.960 And the fact that they do not have let's say, 0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:57.840 electricity and air condition and mosquito repelling and you just 0:26:58.000 --> 0:27:04.280 name it. Just their dogs, insane intelligence and rifleent and 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:09.280 fishing gear. And they live an incredible life, so fulfilled, 0:27:09.320 --> 0:27:14.000 so wonderful. And whoever whoever sees this, and I believe 0:27:14.920 --> 0:27:20.280 those who who actually have ever hunted, they will immediately 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:24.760 understand instantly. Yeah I envy them. 0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:31.360 Yeah you when you made Grill, I had watched your films, 0:27:31.560 --> 0:27:36.760 but became interested in your thinking about nature. And you're 0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:40.520 thinking about animals like I had seen a Geary Wrath 0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:45.280 of God. I'd seen fitz Crawl though, which are great stories, 0:27:46.240 --> 0:27:48.840 really enjoyable films, and and and and it sparked a 0:27:48.920 --> 0:27:53.760 curiosity in me about how you view things. But then 0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:57.439 it then the Timothy Treadwell incident happened. So just to 0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:00.239 give listeners a quick run through Timothy Treadwell, I think 0:28:00.240 --> 0:28:02.200 he's born in the late fifties, if I'm not mistaken. 0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:05.240 He had been a he was wanted to be an actor. 0:28:06.080 --> 0:28:10.240 He had actually was in competition with Woody Harrelson. 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:12.040 Well, that's what he claims. 0:28:12.160 --> 0:28:14.720 We do not know excectly. 0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:19.320 We can look at him and say he was a failed. 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:20.440 Actor, failed actor. 0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:25.720 And then and then deeply, deeply into alcohol and drugs. 0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:30.080