1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: is not a normal Vault day, but to help us 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,319 Speaker 1: get through a few things this week, we're bringing you 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: a vault episode. But it's a really good one. This 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: is an episode of the Invention podcast that we did 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: about the invention of ketchup. If you never listened to Invention, 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: Rob and I did this whole other show for for 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: a few years while back called Invention. It was about inventions, 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: and this is one of my most fondly remembered explorations. 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: This episode originally published on September nineteen. Yeah. I think 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: about this episode every time I use catch up, and 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: I hope that you do as well. Oh, but also 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: never fear. We will be back with all all new 15 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: fresh content for you starting tomorrow and for the rest 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: of the week, so we'll see you then. Welcome to 17 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: Invention Action of I Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Invention. 18 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 19 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: today we have a sweet episode for you. We have 20 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: a salty episode for you. We have a relatively slow 21 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: flowing kind of uh, kind of stachy episode for nice 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: thick episode for you, because today's episode is about catch up, 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: which I just want to go ahead and put it 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: out there. This is gonna be far more interesting, far 25 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: more complex, and in a little bit more confusing than 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: you might anticipate. You know. I was wondering if we 27 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: should start by confessing the strange things that we puld 28 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: catch up on, because you just assume everybody has some 29 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: strange thing they pould catch upon. But I realize I 30 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: am so boring when it comes to catch up. They 31 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: go on fries for French fries, I put it today. 32 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: These days, I put catch up on French fries if 33 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: I have them, and put them on tater tots if 34 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: I have them. Um, what else? That's those are the 35 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: main things really, Um. If I may king my own 36 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: cocktail sauce off, it's obviously I used ketchup as the 37 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: base for that. But yeah, aside from that, I didn't. 38 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: I don't think I ever had any strange ketchup habits 39 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: growing up. I would I think I would occasionally take 40 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: a baked potato and cut it up into rounds and 41 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: put ketchup on that with to the slightly slight disapproval, 42 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: I think of the rest of the table. But my 43 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: argument was, look, this is essentially the same as French fries. 44 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: We put ketch up on French fries. I'm just doing 45 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: this to my baked potato instead of covering it in 46 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: butter and sour cream and what have you. How about you, Seth, 47 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: do you put ketchup on soft serve? He says no. 48 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: My my son doesn't even put ketchup on anything. And 49 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: he's certainly at that age where you see a lot 50 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: of uh you know, strange ketchup or even sort of 51 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: catch up first strategies like one I've definitely seen before, 52 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: and maybe I did see him do this when he 53 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: was younger. I was like to take a French fry, 54 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: dip it in the catchup, lick the ketchup off the 55 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: French fry, get the French fry again, and essentially use 56 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: the French fry as a soggy delivery system for that 57 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: sweet uh you know, sweet and vinegary and salty uh 58 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: you know, overpowering taste profile that is ketchup. You know. 59 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: I was looking at the Hinz website earlier today and 60 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: I found one page where they were like they were 61 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: trying to, i think, advertise the benefits of ketchup beyond 62 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: just it tasting good. And they're like, you can use 63 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: ketchup to get your kids to eat healthy foods. Just 64 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: put ketchup on healthy foods and then they'll eat them. 65 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: And I was thinking, I don't know what, how exactly 66 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: does that work? And you put ketch up on spinach 67 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: and then they spinach, you put it on sweet potatoes, 68 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: and I don't know. Uh yeah, I mean, look, I 69 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: don't have a lot of room to to talk on 70 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: this because my my son is fortunately has always been 71 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: a very good eater. But I can imagine if you're 72 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: having if you're struggling just trying to get any food 73 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: uh into a young child, you would you would turn 74 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: to put and ketchup on just about anything to make 75 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: it happen. You know, we don't want to vilify ketchup 76 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: today because catchup already in many ways has a pretty 77 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: bad reputation, especially among foodies, and you know, people have 78 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: sophisticated palates. I think sometimes look at ketchup as a 79 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: thing that's just ruining the culinary world. It's it's worldwide 80 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: global homogeneity in in cuisine, uh, makes everything taste the same. 81 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: It just crushes individual flavor profiles of foods and signals 82 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: that like, you don't want to taste anything for itself. Yeah, 83 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: generally it's considered an insult to reach for or ask 84 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: for the catchup when you order something at a really 85 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: nice restaurant or even just a passively nice restaurant. Um, 86 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: unless of course, you have ordered the burger and fries 87 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: or some st a manner of fries and it comes with, 88 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: say a housemaid ketchup that is exclusively used for uh, 89 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: for dipping. But then again, you get French fries at 90 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: a at a nicer place, they're probably gonna have some 91 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: other dipping options that are also fantastic that deviate from 92 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: the standard ketchup trope smoked tomato, manna is or something. Yeah, 93 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: that's sort of thing. And certainly we have more condiment 94 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: possibilities available to us now because but but for the 95 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: longest like catch up, you know what, like that's what 96 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: we grew up with. You know that the ketchup is 97 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: what you got it all the fast food restaurants, and 98 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: today you go to just about any restaurant and there 99 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: will be ketch up there. Um, it's gonna be there 100 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: in pumps and bottles and packets, in slices even well, 101 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: I don't know how many restaurants who really leaning on 102 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: the ketchup slices, but ketchup slices do exist. Yeah, if 103 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: you haven't seen it, they're like the craft singles basically 104 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: up Basically, someone said, you know that, you know, the hardened, 105 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: dried ketchup that coagulates around the cap. What have I 106 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: had a whole slice of that? Wouldn't that be great? 107 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it is great. I have not 108 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: tried it. But that's what we're gonna be talking about today, 109 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: is is the world of ketchup? Where does it come from? 110 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: What is it? And why? Why is it so potent? 111 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: Why is it so powerful? It's something we all take 112 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: for granted, but it has an interesting story. So what 113 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: is ketchup usually made of today? When you get tomato 114 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: ketchup in a bottle, your standard stuff, you know, not 115 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: the weird kind, just the standard ketchup you get at 116 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: the store, at the diner. When we think of ketchup, 117 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: and we think of that that thick red stuff you 118 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: squeeze out of a um, out of a bottle, you're 119 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: generally talking about tomato sauce, sugar or another sweetener, vinegar, salt, 120 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: and some sort of proprietary blend of spices and seasonings, 121 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: industrial additives, maybe preservatives, something like that. Yeah, and I 122 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: think commonly your tomato element and your sugar element are 123 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: probably going to be tomato paste and higher discorn sirrup. Yeah, 124 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: high frid discorn serrup has of course become the standards, 125 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: especially here in the United States. But that being said, 126 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: and as we'll touch on later, like you can find 127 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: a lot of ketchups on the market, including ones from 128 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: hines that that are sweetened, say with with a sugar 129 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: or honey or reduced sugar and honey. You know, there 130 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: are playing of other options out there now. When in 131 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: previous decades though, I think it was it was pretty 132 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: much you had the one choice, right right, So when 133 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: we when we dip a front fry and catch up 134 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: where we put ketch up on our you know, our 135 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: burgers are hot dogs or wantons, whatever you're you're putting 136 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: it on. You know, it brings that blessed sweet, sour 137 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: and salty taste to any bite. So it's it's potent stuff. 138 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: It delivers several things that we as organisms are hardwired 139 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: to crave uh and and crave it we do. That's 140 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: why you see some serious pump abuse sometimes at your 141 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: local fast food restaurants, you know, where they'll they'll they'll 142 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: fill up not one cup, not two, but maybe three 143 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: or four just to make sure they're they're covering all 144 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: their ground there, you know, they have all their options 145 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: available to them, or just pump it all over top 146 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: a big pile of fries. People do that. I'm not 147 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: of that school. I'm a dipper, not a drizzler. Yeah, 148 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: I prefer to because if it's drizzled, you're gonna end 149 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: up with that one French fry that is that is 150 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: drowned and lost to the catchup. Um. But then again, 151 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: I think that has a benefit it as you you know, 152 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: as many of us become a little wiser as we 153 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: get ahold, and we realized we should not eat all 154 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: the French fries better than some of the French fries 155 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: drowned and become inedible, than to actually polish off the 156 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: entire plate. But again, ketchup has a an overpowering at 157 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: times flavor profile uh and it goes really well with 158 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: certain things. Obviously, Uh, and it's and it's good to 159 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: have an overpowering flavor profile if you're eating something that is, say, 160 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: less than appetizing. Um. But it's certainly gonna insult the 161 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: chef if you reach for it when you're having, you know, 162 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: something that has a very delicate and planned out flavor 163 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: profile itself. And something I should say in addition to 164 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: so you mentioned that ketchup tends. It's got this trio 165 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: of flavors that we like in a lot of sauces. 166 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: It's got sweetness, it's got acidity or sourness, and it's 167 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: got saltiness. But it's also got this other thing that's 168 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: harder to define. It's the the umami flavor. It comes 169 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: from the tomatoes, for you know, from the tomatoes, from 170 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: the fermentation. Uh. It's this savory, you know, deliciousness kind 171 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: of quality that that's a little bit um. It's not 172 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: as sharper, as easily noticeable as the other three types 173 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: of flavors, but you really value it in many foods 174 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: that you like. And so it shouldn't become as a 175 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: surprise that, especially in the United States, it has become 176 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: such a popular condiment. I see that the number kind 177 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: of varies, but for instance, in a two thousand fourteen 178 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: article from on the National Geographic website, how was Ketchup Invented? 179 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: By Jasmine Wiggins Uh, the author sites nine seven percent 180 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: of American households report having a bottle of the stuff around. 181 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: That is a I mean, that's a huge number. That's 182 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: a huge number. I've seen it. I've seen it higher, 183 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: generally by ketchup companies, and I've also seen it a 184 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: little lower. But I mean, you know, without you know, 185 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: arguing over the exact number, like it is a very 186 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: widespread condiment, not only here but now you know, in 187 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: various places around the world. But yet, there was a 188 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: time before Ketchup. There was a time when there was 189 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: no Ketchup. And we're going to begin our journey by 190 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: by traveling back in time. Let's get some time travel 191 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: sound effects, can we can we blue blue, blue, bloup 192 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: or something? All right, Well, so we're traveling back. Yes, 193 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: we're seeking that time before Ketchup. Was there a time 194 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: before Ketchup? Yes? But also no, because I told you 195 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,599 Speaker 1: this is gonna be a little more confused than you 196 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: might think, because in a large sense, we have to 197 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: consider the legacy of the condiment of the sauce itself 198 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: and to think about its inception. You know, what what 199 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: does it mean to put a sauce on something? Like? 200 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: What is what is ketchup itself? You know what is 201 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: what is it essentially doing? And it's pointed out in 202 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: Pure Ketchup, a History of America's National condiment with recipes 203 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: by Andrew F. Smith, who who will keep coming back 204 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: to because Andrew seems to be the one of the 205 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: primary authorities on the history of ketchup. He's like the 206 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: world Ketchup lore master. He's the l Rond or the 207 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: Saruman of ketchup. Yes, but according to Smith, humans have 208 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: attempted to preserve foods with salt for thousands of years. 209 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: It retards the growth of bacteria, and salt and water 210 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: used like this, you know, is known as brining Brian 211 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: something just right, and certain species of bacteria produce lactic acid, 212 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: which kills off harmful of that bacteria and lowers the 213 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: pH It also creates an environment suitable for fermentation, and 214 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: this changes the flavor this pickling. Yeah, and of course 215 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: we have pickling traditions in culture is just around the world, 216 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: and we could easily do an entire episode just on 217 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: pickling and food preserve preservation that I think we will. Yeah, 218 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: that that in and of itself is a is a 219 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 1: fascinating topic, especially when you get into all the varied 220 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: forms of it um from like burying a bunch of 221 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: dead birds in the earth. You know too well, the 222 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: earth does play a role in a number of different 223 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: fermentation uh uh strategies that were developed. The idea of 224 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: taking something, taking a few ingredients, bundling it away in 225 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: the darkness of the earth, and then bringing it back 226 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: up when you need it when the time of the 227 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: harvest has grown cold. But as as Smith points out, 228 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: fermented sauces were certainly used by ancient peoples to enhance 229 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: flavors in their food as well as and this is 230 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: key to hide unpleasant odors because you know, a lot 231 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: of times, especially in the ancient world or any time 232 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: prior to our our modern age of of of food 233 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: abundance and food waste. You know, you often had you 234 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: had what you had, and sometimes it might not smell 235 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: that pleasant or taste that pleasant, but it was what 236 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: was for dinner. Uh It was the meal, and you 237 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: had to choke it down one way or the other. Uh, 238 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: and so you might need to cover up the underlying 239 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: flavor or odor since when a bottle of catchup would 240 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: have come in real handy back then exactly, and they 241 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: didn't quite have ketchup certainly. But the Greeks and the 242 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: Romans used something called garum, Smith says, which was a 243 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: fermented fish sauce. It was itself a byproduct of salting 244 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: tons of foot fish as a means of preserving those fish. 245 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: And there are modern analogs of of garum. There's an 246 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: Italian cuisine. There's this stuff called colatura that's this you know, 247 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: salty fermented fish sauce flavor that's delicious. In Asian cuisines, 248 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: you've got various forms of fish sauce like nonpla oyster sauces, etcetera. Yeah, exactly. 249 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: So you take some seafood you'd heavily salted, and you 250 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: get an extract from it um that is this funky, 251 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: highly savory, ummi rich salty kind of thing, and it's great. 252 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: You know, that stuff is great, not just in the 253 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: you know, the cuisines it's traditionally associated with, but chefs 254 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: today use, for example, Asia Southeast Asian style fish sauce 255 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: in all kinds of things. You'll find chefs putting h 256 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: Thai fish sauce and beef stews and in chili and 257 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: bolonaise and everything anyway anywhere you want to like boost 258 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: the beefy flavor of food. And they vary a lot, 259 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: not only in their their flavor, but also in their consistency. 260 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: You know, some are very thick, there's a very watery uh. 261 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: And and I always anytime you visit um uh you know, 262 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: a new you know, Asian restaurant, do try all of 263 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: the sauces, especially the ones you are not familiar with, 264 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: just to get a good uh, you know, a good 265 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, overall of the taste sensations available totally. So yes, obviously, 266 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 1: we have a wealth of pickling traditions from around the world. 267 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: Though it's a smith points out in the media, in 268 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: the medieval world, the medieval European world, the byproduct of 269 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: those pickling endeavors were often just discarded instead of being 270 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: reutilized as some sort of a sauce. Um and uh, 271 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: I have to say that my my son does not 272 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: adhere to this, as he loves to drink down the 273 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: pickle juice from the pickle jar. He'll drink down the 274 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: sardine oil from the sardine can uh he is, he does, 275 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: he does not waste any of it. Well, first of all, 276 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: I can sympathize because of course pickles are delicious and 277 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: and that liquid therefore is also somewhat delicious. But second, 278 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: this springs up. I don't even know if we should 279 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: get into this. This is we probably should. Okay, I 280 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: don't want to spend half an hour talking about this, 281 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: but I just had to mention my favorite article of 282 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: all time from my hometown newspaper, the Chattanooga Times Free Press, 283 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: hit Caught in a Pickle Chattanooga attorney common Friends explain 284 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: strange addiction, and it's about people who can't stop drinking 285 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: pickle juice. The main figure in this article is a 286 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: local lawyer who tells these stories about how when he's 287 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: driving home for more, he would stop at the grocery 288 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: store and he'd get a jar of pickles and take 289 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: him out to his car, and he dump all the 290 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: pickles out in the parking lot and just guzzle down 291 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: all the juice. But now he's figured out that the 292 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: smarter and more economical thing is just to buy jugs 293 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: of pickle juice like dill pickle juice by itself. You 294 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: can order it from I don't know, various manufacturers. I 295 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: guess some people just add their cucumbers straight to dill 296 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: pickle juice. But there are these accompanying photos on the 297 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: Times Free Press website of this guy posing with a 298 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: gallon jug of dill pickle Brin Stitches Award. Yes, I 299 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: love this this. I mean I've I've I've read articles 300 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: about like people who are such fermentation enthusiasts that they 301 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: and and sometimes they you know, they back this up 302 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: with arguments about the you know, the health benefits of 303 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: fermented products, and and they'll they'll sometimes take on like 304 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: a very fermentation heavy diet. But I also have heard 305 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: just anecdotal accounts so that I think my my aunt 306 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: was really into croud juice for for a long time 307 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: and maybe still is just just because she liked it 308 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: or for like like health remody kind of, I think 309 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: it was because she just like the flavor. Yeah, well 310 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: I love pickles too. I don't go that far, but yeah, 311 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: it reminds me that the Hannibal Burriss stand up comedy 312 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: debt where he's talking about saving the jar of pickles 313 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: pickle juice after all the pickles are gone, so that 314 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: he can flick it onto his grilled cheese sandwich. I 315 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: don't know this bit. It sounds smart. Yeah, Like basically 316 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: it's like it's it's a bit about roommates and not 317 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: wanting the roommate to throw out the pickle juice because 318 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: the pickles juice still has you use. It can still 319 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: be flicked onto And I think that that gets down 320 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: to what we're talking about here, Like, yes, the the 321 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: the resulting pickled juice is still still packs flavor. It 322 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: can still be used to enhance other foods. So even 323 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: though the you know, in the medieval uh European world, 324 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: people weren't that into saving their their food preparation juice 325 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: is uh still you had traditions of creating sauces. From 326 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: early Greek times onward. Europeans made sauces that were based 327 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: in large part on vinegar raging for ranging from the 328 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: simple to the complex, and they grew very complex in 329 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: Elizabethan Britain. UH. Sauce, after all is where we get 330 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: the the saucer from which is of course ends up 331 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: being so vitally connected with the t culture that grows 332 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: out of Britain. It's actually for sauce. I had no idea. Yeah, 333 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: this according to our ketchup expert Andrew Alright, well, I 334 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: don't mean this is a slam against British food, but 335 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: if you are sometimes going to be consuming i don't know, 336 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: say largely bland foods in your diet, sauces are clearly 337 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: going to become pretty popular. Yeah. Yeah, and uh. He 338 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: points out that in Robert may five book The Accomplished Cook, Uh, 339 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 1: the author list thirteen sauce categories, and each of those 340 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: sauce categories can contain upwards of a dozen different sauces 341 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: that you can make to say, put on your mutton. Yeah. Now, 342 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: I don't know how this lines up historically with the 343 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: French sauce tradition, but obviously that's a huge thing as well. 344 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: Like you know, the French have all these uh, French 345 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: high cuisine has this whole family system of sauces, like 346 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: sauces that you make, and then the sauces that are 347 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: derived from those sauces, the mother sauces, and the sauces 348 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: you make out of them. For example, you might make 349 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: like a French brown sauce, and then from that can 350 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: be derived these vinegar based changes. Uh, it's very complex. 351 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: So that's the the European theater roughly. But then also, 352 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: of course, you know, across across the continent, across eur Asia, 353 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: you have different traditions going on. Um, Assalted and fermented 354 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: fish sauces are an ancient part of Southeast Asia and 355 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: as well, and you know they're they're too were numerous 356 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: and varied in their flavor and consistency. For instance, in 357 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: in China, the soybean was domesticated uh by roughly eight 358 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: b c E. And eventually soy sauce springs from this, 359 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: one of the great sauces of of human creation, the 360 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: ultimate savory condiment. Yeah. And then uh, you know, eventually 361 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: the Western and Eastern kingdoms of the sauce eventually meet, 362 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: and during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, British and European 363 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: sailors were introduced to and impressed by the various soy 364 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: and fish sauces and sauces that that they inevitably didn't 365 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: even really know, you know, what the ingredients were. They 366 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: just knew that when you put it on food, it 367 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: was amazing and they no doubt. Um, you know, we're 368 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: enthralled by the possibility of bringing these sauces back to 369 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: to spice up things at home that we're either bland 370 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: or had grown bland to their now you know, excited 371 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: palate and uh and yeah. So they encountered these things 372 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: on their voyages. Smith writes, quote from this culinary crucible assaulted, 373 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: pickled and fermented foods from ancient Europe and exotic Southeast Asia. 374 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: British ketchup materialized during the eighteenth century. All right, it's 375 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: time to take a Breakpool will be right back with 376 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: more on the history of ketchup. Alright, we're back, Okay, Joe, 377 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: who invented the ketchup? Was it Sir Carmichael Ketchup? Was it? 378 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: Was it Baron von ketch Up? There have been names 379 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: proposed by various food historians over the years, but these 380 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: these proposals are definitely wrong. Like we just know for 381 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: a fact, like we don't know the inventor of the 382 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: original ketchup. But as we've been explaining someone, the question 383 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: of ketchups inventors fraught anyway, because the sauce has evolved 384 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,479 Speaker 1: so much over time. So where do you put the 385 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: inventor Ketchup seems to be a long lineage of copies 386 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: of copies of types of sauces. And so the origins 387 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: of ketchup bear very little resemblance to the sauce that's 388 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: sold under that name in most of the world today. 389 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: But nevertheless, we will do our best to trace the 390 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: origins of how that sauce came to be. So when 391 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: you think about the characteristics of ketchup, uh, Andrew F. 392 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: Smith points this out, and I think he's correct. You 393 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: try to think of the three main characteristics of ketchup, 394 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: but you probably think that it's something that's thick, something 395 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: that is sweet, and something that is made from tomatoes, right, yes, 396 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: And of course also just vitally red, like so red 397 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: that that it often in our comedies and uh, you 398 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: know cartoons. It is a substitute for human blood. Yes, uh. 399 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: And so the origins of ketchup possessed probably none of 400 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: these qualities at all. Not made from tomatoes, not sweet, 401 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: not thick, not red. Uh. And so in his book 402 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: in in Pure Ketchup and F. Smith relays a number 403 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: of competing theories about the origins of ketchup, most of 404 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: which we now know are almost definitely wrong. A lot 405 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: of the older origin stories lie in Europe, like, for example, 406 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: that ketchup comes from the English word cavitch, which is 407 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: a type of fish pickled in vinegar. This and the 408 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: idea that this is a cognate for the French term 409 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: escovetch a, which means like food and sauce for the 410 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: Spanish escabech a uh, this theory is now considered incorrect. 411 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: It seems generally agreed that ketchup, as we were saying 412 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,479 Speaker 1: before the break, comes from some kind of tradition of 413 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: Asian cuisine. But while that's pretty well established, it gets 414 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: harder to pin down in more definite ways. In eighteen 415 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: seventy seven, somebody named Eneas Dallas speculated that the word 416 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: ketchup comes from a Japanese word keep job k I 417 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: T J A P. However, this does not seem to 418 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: be an actual Japanese word, or even a possible Japanese word, 419 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: that that formation does not come together in Japanese syllables. Um. 420 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: It's also been speculated to have come from a Melee 421 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: word k E C A P. I'm not sure how 422 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: that would have been pronounced, maybe catch up. However, this 423 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: also seems unlikely. I think among food historians the favorite 424 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: theory now, as originally put forth by the editors of 425 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: the Oxford English Dictionary, UH, seems to be that the 426 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: English word ketchup has Chinese origins, and that it really 427 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: comes from Kate's yap quote, a word from the Amoy 428 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: dialect of Chinese meaning the brine of pickled fish. So 429 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: this would give it a fish origin, though I've seen 430 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: other origins on mission. In a second Smith notes that 431 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: an ethnologist named Terry En de la Cooperie has argued 432 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: that while the word is Chinese, it does not appear 433 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: to have come from the Chinese mainland, and that the 434 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: scholar thinks it more likely emerged from Chinese speakers living 435 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: elsewhere in Southeast Asia, such as in Vietnam, and that 436 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: the British probably first came into contact with this sauce 437 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: and the name of this sauce somewhere in what is 438 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: today Indonesia. Now, I was also reading about the origins 439 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: of ketchup from the Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink 440 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 1: in America, and that's from O U P edited by 441 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: Bruce Craig from the editors there. Oh also I should 442 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: say that the entry is by Andrew F. Smith, yet 443 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: again apparently just seems to be the ketchup master. But 444 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: this entry is more recent than his book, so I 445 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: would imagine it incorporates, you know, more recent sources and scholarship. 446 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: On that that, the editors here and Smith seemed to 447 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: still be going with the idea of the Chinese language 448 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: origin story for the term ketchup. They think it comes 449 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: from Kate's yap and it would refer to a savory 450 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: fermented sauce here though they say not made out of fish, 451 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: but made out of soybeans. Um. So I'm not sure. 452 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: There seemed to be these competing theories about whether this 453 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: sauce would have been fish based or soybean based, or 454 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: maybe both, but there does seem to be general agreement 455 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: that this was some kind of ummmy, rich savory kind 456 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: of sauce, and fermented soybeans in salt or Brian provide 457 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: a fantastic savory flavor in many forms. We've talked about 458 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: fish based sauces like garam or whatever, but but soybean 459 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 1: based sauces are amazing. Of course, soy sauce, the ultimate 460 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: savory condiment is brewed with soybeans and usually some kind 461 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: of roasted grain. But that's not the only one. You've 462 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: also got, for example, miso in Japanese cuisine, which is 463 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: a seasoning, often in the paste form, that gets made 464 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: from fermented soybeans and other varying ingredients like coach. You 465 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: know this reminds me. You know, you occasionally see sort 466 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,959 Speaker 1: of you know, loose time travel arguments where someone will say, hey, 467 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: if you were able to bring back, you know, six 468 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: machine guns in a time machine and go back to 469 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: the ancient Rome, could you conquer the Roman Empire? I 470 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: think of even more interesting question is if you were 471 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: to bring back like a single um caddy of spices 472 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: and sauces from say, your local Vietnamese restaurants or or 473 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: Thai restaurant, could you conquer Yeah, any empire of the 474 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 1: British Empire or certainly the Roman Empire. The Romans were 475 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: big foodies. They were all about exploring new flavors. But 476 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: if you were to present them with this, uh, would 477 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: you have the upper hand at least until you ran 478 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: out anyway? Yeah? Maybe instead you should bring like a 479 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: soy sauce brewery along with you a few a few recipes, 480 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: secret recipes in code. Yeah, So Smith writes anyway that 481 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: the British colonists and traders would have come into contact 482 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: with sauces of these kinds, either maybe while in China 483 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 1: or as we were saying earlier, maybe more likely somewhere 484 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: in Indonesia, and then they tried to duplicate the flavor 485 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: once they came back home, but without access to the 486 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: crucial ingredient, at least in one branch of this theory 487 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: of soybeans. Yeah, I love the idea that they've they've 488 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: brought their this this precious sauce back with them and 489 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: they've used did opt, They've you know, they've they've they've 490 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: they've beat on the butt of the bottle that they've 491 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: they've they've they've used their knife to get as much 492 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: out as possible. They they've added hot water and shaking 493 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: it up and then poured the remnants onto their food. 494 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: But now they are out and they must try somehow 495 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: to create it again with the limited resources that they have. 496 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: So it's like people doing the copycat recipes the same way. Today, 497 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: you'll find somebody with a blog who's like, here's my uh, 498 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: here's my chick fil a chicken sandwich recipe. You know, 499 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: they make it home instead of going there. That's what 500 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: they would do with this sauce. And another one of 501 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: the reasons I was thinking about this origin in Southeast 502 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: Asian and Indonesia is you mentioned earlier that not Geo 503 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: article by Jessmine Wiggins that it cites as an example 504 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: of an early ketchup recipe in English, a recipe published 505 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: by an author named Richard Bradley in seventeen thirty two 506 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: for something called ketchup in Paste, which said that the 507 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: sauce came from quote bin cooling in the East Indies. 508 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: And I think this must be referring to an area 509 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: of the of British bin cooling, which is spelled differently 510 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: than it is here in this citation, but it would 511 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: have been pronounced the same, I guess. And it's this 512 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: coastal region of Sumatra around the area of today's Bengkulu City, 513 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: which is of course in the country of Indonesia. But anyway, 514 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: wherever this comes from, it's somewhere over there, and the 515 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: British bring it back to Britain and they've they've tasted 516 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: this awesome savory sauce. It's got this salty mommy punch. 517 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: Maybe it's made out of fish, maybe it's made out 518 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: of soybeans, maybe both, But they want to eat it 519 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: again when they're back home. Like you said, they've emptied 520 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: out the bottle. It's all gone. And and you lack 521 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: a crucial ingredient. Perhaps maybe you know or you don't 522 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: know what the crucial ingredients are, so you just try 523 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: to do this copycat. So the British traditions actually have 524 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: plenty of alternative ummmy bomb ingredients that they could substitute 525 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: to try to recreate this flavor. One, for example, would 526 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: be anchovies, another would be oysters, another would be mushroom. 527 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: Mushrooms are a great umamy rich savory ingredient. If you 528 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: know you want to boost that kind of flavor in something, 529 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: tryadding dried mushrooms to it. I've also read that they 530 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: tried kidney beans and walnuts, though that's weird. I've never 531 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: thought of kidney beans or walnuts as ummmy rich in flavor, 532 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: but may mean I don't think of them, right, Yeah, 533 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: And so they used all of these ingredients in their 534 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: various British ketchups. Wiggins also points out that Jane Austin, 535 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: the acclaimed author, is said to have been a big 536 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: fan of mushroom ketchup in particular. Uh, but again, most 537 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: of these ketchups are thin and dark, so dismiss any 538 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: notions of Jane Austin nimbly snacking on French fries and 539 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: bright red ketchup right. No, Yeah, probably would have been 540 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: something closer to like Worcestershire sauce or soy sauce, or 541 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: maybe the English condiment known as brown sauce. You know 542 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: about brown sauce, Robbert And now it's like a gravy. 543 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: Is that what? Because that's what I'm imagining. It's kind 544 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: of like a poutine. Uh, you know, gravy. No, I 545 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: mean it's like a type of bottled sauce. I mean, actually, 546 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: I think technically within the bounds of what we're talking 547 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: about historically today, it sort of is a ketchup. It's 548 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: not tomato based. It's English brown sauce. There's this brand, 549 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: I think it's called Daddy's Favorite Sauce. It's kind of weirds. 550 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 1: I think there's also HP sauce that might sort of 551 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: be a brown sauce. It's sort of a a tart 552 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: savory fermented kind of sauce. It's brown in color, it's 553 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: got vinegar, it's got spices, um, and people put it on, 554 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, breakfast, like on your your full English breakfast 555 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: eggs and sausage and bags that I've had it, but 556 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: I have seen brown sauce mentioned. So basically I think 557 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: brown sauces in line with what would have been considered 558 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: ketchup at this time. By the way, it's speaking of 559 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: French fries, I do want to point out that while 560 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: Jane Austin would not have been having a bright red 561 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: tomato ketchup, she could have possibly had for fries because 562 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,479 Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson was serving them at the White House at 563 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: roughly the same time. Yeah, or something that was referred 564 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: to as potatoes served in the French manner, which some 565 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: commentators have taken to be French recon I mean essentially, uh, 566 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's French fries are a simple concept, um, 567 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: and then once you've had them, you will you want 568 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: to serve them at the highest levels of government. So 569 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: I would love to see a restaurant titled Jane Austin's 570 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: House of Traditional English ketchups and potatoes served in the 571 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: French manner. Why does something sound kind of sinister about 572 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: that potatoes served in the French manner? Yeah, it sounds 573 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: you know, potentially um infectious or taboo. You know. So 574 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: I hear you like potatoes, but do you like potatoes 575 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: in the French manner? Done? Okay, Well we're still so 576 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: here We've got various things that are referred to as 577 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: ketchups in British cuisine, derived probably from original savory sauces 578 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: in Asian cuisine, made out of all kinds of differ 579 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: and stuff mushrooms, oysters and chovies, walnuts, beans, and so 580 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: how do we get from that to the the ketchup 581 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: that we were talking about at the beginning of the 582 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: episode as being considered synonymous with American food, you know, 583 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: American fast food especially. Well, so British colonists brought their 584 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: interpretations of ketchup with them to America, where the recipe experiments, 585 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: of course, continued over the years. It didn't just stop 586 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: evolving there in Smith notes that beans and apples were 587 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: tried out as major ingredients of ketchup um. And of 588 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: course we got to get to the tomato somehow. And 589 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: here the line of connection is getting a lot clearer 590 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: because the tomato is a new world very originally cultivated 591 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: by the native peoples of Central and South America, and 592 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: the tomato is also like anchovies, like mushrooms, like the 593 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: fermented soybeans, rich in savory umami flavors. So already we 594 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: can see ketchup as a true product of international trade 595 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: inspired by Asian culinary traditions interpreted by European ends using 596 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: the natural bounty of the America's Yeah, and I think 597 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: it's not surprising at all that you start to see 598 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: tomatoes showing up as a main ingredient and ketchup recipes 599 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: in the United States in the early eighteen hundreds. For example, 600 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: an early published recipe for tomato ketchup, maybe the earliest 601 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: one was written by the American horticulturists and scientist James Mice, 602 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: who was living in Philadelphia in the year eighteen twelve, 603 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: and Mice referred to tomatoes in this recipe as love apples, 604 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: which is a term from the French the palm de 605 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: more apparently the apple of love, which is interesting to 606 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: me because it's parallel to the French term for potatoes 607 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: palm to tear there or the apples of the earth. 608 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: And that makes me wonder are there other French phrases 609 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: of the just anything that was previously unfamiliar in the 610 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: language is apples of something like well, especially with the tomato, 611 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: it makes sense, right, You're suddenly presented with this new food. 612 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: What's your frame of reference for something that looks like this? 613 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: You might turn to the apple and say, oh, it's this. 614 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: It's this strange apple that came from from the New World, 615 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 1: and it's a it's a it has a totally different 616 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: flavor profile. Let's start cooking with it. Of course, then again, 617 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: I think also in Italian tomatoes pomadoro, and I think 618 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: the origin of that is the is golden apple. Yeah, 619 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: but I do love that the apple of love when 620 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: you have a really good tomato. I believe that title 621 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: is appropriate. Oh absolutely, But what what would the French 622 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 1: word for peppers be? Pepper is also a New World 623 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: uh crop genus that brought over the capsicum? Would it 624 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: be apple? Apples of burning? Anyway? Miss recipe for catchup 625 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: involved a tomato pulp, base, and brandy, but did not 626 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: include common ingredients you'd find today like vinegar or sugar. Now, 627 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: of course, tomatoes naturally have both sweetness and acidity, but 628 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: sugar and vinegar I think are used to boost those 629 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: natural qualities and also for their preservative powers. And also, 630 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: just to be perfectly clear, miss recipe here would not 631 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: have been the first tomato based sauce by a long shot. 632 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: I mean people were using tomatoes and sauces. It would 633 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: just be one of the first known times that tomato 634 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: becomes the backbone of a sauce that people are calling ketchup, right, 635 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: because I think this is more of a modern thing. 636 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: But I've when when you have like alleged pizza sauce, 637 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: um an alleged pasta sauce from like a very like 638 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,919 Speaker 1: fast food oriented Italian restaurant. I will not name names, 639 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: but sometimes they are provided here in the office, and uh, 640 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: and I tasted, and I'm like, this is essentially catch up. 641 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: This is not pasta sauce, This is not uh, this 642 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: is this is nothing like spaghetti sauce. This is essentially 643 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: catch up. Nothing says the old Country like noodles boiled 644 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: for twenty five minutes and ketchup and lots of cheese. 645 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,479 Speaker 1: So at this point the stage is set for for 646 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: for what is largely the next phase of food preparation, 647 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: and that is industrial food preparation preparation, Yeah, exactly. So 648 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: throughout the nineteenth century, industrial food production and packaging increased, uh. 649 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: And there were multiple types of ketchup sold throughout the 650 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: United States at this point, especially after the Civil War, 651 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,399 Speaker 1: And at this point tomato ketchup was still only one 652 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: of these major varieties of ketchup. But by the end 653 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, I think at this point the 654 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: conquest of tomato ketchup was complete. So it sort of 655 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: happened over the course of the eighteen hundreds. Uh, the 656 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: conquest was complete in a couple of ways, both in 657 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 1: terms of becoming the primary variety of ketchup found on 658 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: tables and kitchens was now tomato ketchup, but also in 659 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: surpassing other condiments and sauces in popularity in general. And 660 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: Smith notes that in eighteen s an article in the 661 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: New York Tribune called tomato ketchup America's national condiment and 662 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: referred to the fact that it was found quote on 663 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: every table in the land. So it sounds like by 664 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century, tomato ketchup had reached 665 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: a level of popularity close to what it enjoys today 666 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: in the United States, but how it was used at 667 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: the time I think was somewhat different. Smith reports that, 668 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: in line with its traditionally uses, up through the turn 669 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century, the main uses for tomato ketchup 670 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: included quote as an ingredient for savory pies and sauces, 671 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 1: and to enhance the flavor of meat, poultry, and fish. 672 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: So I think it's more the idea that if your 673 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: chicken is bland, you boost the flavor with some UMMMI 674 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 1: rich tomato ketchup, Or if your gravy is weak, you 675 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: get some ketchup in there and the gravy and it 676 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: will sort of boost the flavor a bit. If your 677 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: weenies are lacking, you just add ketchup and grape jelly 678 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: and cook him up in a crock pot. What are 679 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: you talking about, Like, that's like that's cocktail weenies, right 680 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: that really yea, like the rape jelly. I didn't know 681 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: that that was I believe that's the recipe. I remember 682 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: seeing um and sort of being horrified by it. Seems 683 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: like you'd want more ingredients in your your your cocktail 684 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: weenie sauce. Well, do you know about curry worse this 685 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: German food it now, that's it's basically little sausages cut 686 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: up in catch up with curry powder. That's basically it. 687 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: And this is something you make or something you purchase 688 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: in a camp. I think it's like a German kind 689 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: of fast food. I don't want slander German cuisine, but well, 690 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 1: I mean, curry has is certainly another one of those flavors, 691 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: flavor profiles that has conquered the world becoming of basically curries, 692 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 1: uh have become an essential part of English cuisine. Curries 693 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: have become a very popular part of modern Japanese cuisine. 694 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: Uh And and curry can be found, you know, throughout 695 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: the United States in various cuisines. So you go into 696 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: a traditional English chip shop, you'll find it. You know, 697 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: you can get the tartar sauce, or you can get 698 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: the curry sauce and a lot of them. So basically 699 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: what you're getting at though, is that the use of 700 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 1: ketchup at the time was was more as as a 701 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: catch all sauce and ingredients sauce, yeah, uh and, so 702 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 1: I think it was later in the twentieth century that 703 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: ketch up became most associated with what Smith calls it's 704 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 1: three major host food. Can you guess what these are? Well, 705 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: we've already touched on French fries and um, I mean 706 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: the other big one that comes to mind is, of 707 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: course the fast food hamburger. Of course, there you go, 708 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: that makes sense. Of course. The third one is the 709 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: hot dog. This is controversial, and on one hand, I 710 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 1: don't want to be that jerk that tells other people 711 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: what to eat or how to eat, except right now. 712 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: I always get that feeling about this one topic in particular, 713 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 1: which is that if you're gonna eat a hot dog, 714 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: a hot dog has a very natural, heavenly soul made, 715 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: and that soul made is mustard. Catch up on hot 716 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: dogs seems like a strange betrayal to me. Yeah, well 717 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't. I don't have a real firm opinion. 718 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: When I have a veggie dog these days, I tend 719 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: to have mustard. Yeah, I tend to put sauer Kraud 720 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,959 Speaker 1: on it. Souer Krowd's a great choice. And I also 721 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: like a little horse radish. That seems stranger, but I'd 722 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: be willing to try that. I've gotten to where I 723 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: I like horse radish. I'm just about anything like it's 724 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: a good uh, it's a good good way to like 725 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: spice it up and make sure I get that that 726 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: blasting moment like like where I kind of poisoned myself 727 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: where I don't know which bite it's going to be, 728 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 1: but I know one of the bites I take of 729 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: this veggie dog is going to make me go blind 730 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: for a second. Well, I like that. I like the 731 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 1: sound of that. Also, though, have you ever had horse 732 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: radish on smoked fish based spreads, like on a like 733 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 1: a smoked trout or or or like a baked salmon 734 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: kind of spread. I don't know that I have. I mean, 735 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: obviously I've had like the wasabi uh in in sushi, 736 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: which you know that that's an example of the horse 737 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: radishi type flavor going you know, super well with with 738 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: with fish flavors. So I imagine it would be amazing. 739 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 1: It's very good. The local restaurant here in town, the 740 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,359 Speaker 1: General Mirror, is kind of like a New York deli 741 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: style place. They do like a baked salmon spread with 742 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: horse radish on tops. Speaking of putting Sauer Kraut on dogs, though, 743 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,919 Speaker 1: I bet other traditions that are similar to Sauer kraut. 744 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: I would say kimchi would be amazing on a hot dog. Absolutely, yeah, 745 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: kimchi is good on everything. But anyway, I guess one 746 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: thing that we should realize from this history is that 747 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: if there's one feature we most often think of as 748 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: necessary for Ketchup, it probably is that it's a tomato 749 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: based sauce. And this is just historically not the case. Uh. 750 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: It's tomato based. Ketchup is a particularly popular variety of 751 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: ketchup that achieved dominance over time. Now we were already 752 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: alluding to them earlier, but when you talk about ketchup, 753 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: you've got to talk about one big brand name, right. Uh. 754 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 1: There're originally tons of different producers of Ketchup in general 755 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: and tomato Ketchup specifically in the United States and in Britain, 756 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: but in the early twentieth century, one company established itself 757 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: as sort of the big troll in the arena, you know, 758 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: the dominant player in tomato ketchup manufacturing and sales, and 759 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: of course that was the Hines Company, Right. Yeah. This 760 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,399 Speaker 1: is one of those situations where you might think, oh, well, 761 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: we just think of Hines because they're the major company today. 762 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: But you know, it's like it's impossible to separate the 763 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: history of ketchup from the step from the history of Hines. 764 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: Um Historian Gabriella Patrick points out that during the eighteen hundreds, 765 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: when Hines, uh, the Hines Company you know, came to life, 766 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: ketchup was made out of all the aforementioned ingredients, uh, 767 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: you know, from the anchovies to the mushrooms, but also grapes. 768 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: That was an additional ingredient they included here. Uh, she 769 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: included here, So it's it's you know, also important to 770 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,760 Speaker 1: note that up until until Hines, this was not something 771 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: you just you know, exclusively boughted a store. Ketch Up 772 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 1: was something that was also just made in the home, 773 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: and it you know, and it was no matter what 774 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: the ingredients generally more of a watery substance. You know. This, 775 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: this idea of like the thick catchup is is largely 776 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: a product of of Hines. And and we can largely 777 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 1: look to Hines as the as the originator of this 778 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: characteristic and they would go on to make a big 779 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: deal about that thickness. I want to talk about that 780 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: in a bit. So Hines focused in on on tomato, sauce, sugar, vinegar, 781 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: and spices, and then they made it thick. They made 782 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: it as thick as you're probably accustomed to, thick in 783 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: a way that it wasn't made in the home, and 784 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: thick in a way that certainly lends itself to certain usages, Uh, 785 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: that you know, you wouldn't be able to get out 786 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: of just you know, this watery substance. Yeah, it would 787 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: be less appealing probably to say squired on top of 788 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: a hot dog, like it's watery. It would just kind 789 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: of like soak into the bun maybe, but yeah, or 790 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 1: to or to dip fries in for that matter. Um, 791 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: So it's J. Hines Company had existed for decades and 792 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 1: they've been selling tomato ketchup since eighteen seventy three, and 793 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 1: Hines remained the largest producer of ketchup throughout the twentieth century. 794 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: It was flanked by competitors like Hunts and del Monte. 795 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: One interesting historical intersection I thought is between the Hinz 796 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: Company and a book that I was talking about in 797 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: our summer reading episode of Stuff to Blew your Mind recently, Uh, 798 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 1: and that that concerns the push for pure food and 799 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 1: drug laws in the United States by the chemist Harvey 800 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: Washington Wiley and others. Uh So, in nineteen o six, 801 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: when the U. S. Congress passed the Pure Food and 802 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: Drug Act, a lot of industrial food producers would have 803 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: been using preservatives like formaldehyde and borax and stuff, stuff 804 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: that the Wiley was very against. And one major beneficiary 805 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,959 Speaker 1: of this act apparently was hind Since I was reading 806 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: a New York Times article that mentions that they had 807 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: a method to sterilize and bottle ketchup at scale without 808 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: the use of toxic preservatives, and because they already had 809 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: this method at a plant, I believe it was in Pennsylvania, 810 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: um that they benefited from the passage of this law. 811 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: All Right, on that note, we're going to take a 812 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: quick break, and when we come back we will continue 813 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: our discussion of what is essentially the modern history of 814 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: ketch up. All right, we're back. So we've been talking 815 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 1: about how in a way, tomato ketchup is already something 816 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,360 Speaker 1: that has a global culinary history. It came from Asian 817 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:09,359 Speaker 1: cuisine originally, and then was something that British cooks tried 818 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: to recreate and then spread to America had tomatoes incorporated. 819 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,240 Speaker 1: But today tomato ketchup is not just a regional favorite condiment. 820 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: It is a huge global manufacturing success. It spread to 821 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: countries all over the world, especially alongside fast food franchises. 822 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: And Andrew F. Smith notes that as of Americans purchased 823 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: ten billion ounces of Ketchup every year, which works out 824 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: to about three full bottles for every person in the country. 825 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 1: That's a lot of Ketchup. That is that that is 826 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: that's more than my household be well, that's that's more 827 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: than my households, you know, purchase of Ketchup bottles. But 828 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 1: I don't know when you start looking at Ketchup consumed elsewhere, 829 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 1: maybe and maybe it is accurate. I'm not sure. Yeah, 830 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: for for the whole world and not just America, sales 831 00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,799 Speaker 1: top eight hundred and forty million fourteen ounce bottles a year. Uh. 832 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: The Hinz company alone claims that they sell six hundred 833 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: and fifty million bottles of Ketchup a year. And they 834 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,880 Speaker 1: also claim, in addition to that, to sell eleven billion 835 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: single serve plastic packets of Ketchup every year. That means 836 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: about one point five Ketchup packets per human on Earth. Now, 837 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: another fact about Hinz Ketchup specifically, we're all familiar with 838 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 1: the Hinz ketchup bottle, the glass bottle that's on the 839 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: table at the restaurant. If you've ever fought the battle 840 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,480 Speaker 1: of reology against the slow pouring ketchup stuck up in 841 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,040 Speaker 1: a in a glass Hines bottle. Apparently we were alluding 842 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: to this earlier. The slow poor of Hinz Ketchup is 843 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,799 Speaker 1: something Hinz used to specifically boast about in ads for 844 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 1: their product, resting on the logic that a thick, slow 845 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,080 Speaker 1: pouring ketchup was you know, it's higher quality. It means 846 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,799 Speaker 1: it's made for more tomatoes. The on interesting. I can 847 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,080 Speaker 1: see how that messaging would stick to the you know, 848 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,799 Speaker 1: the experience of the thick ketchup. I mean, they've really 849 00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: got ads about it. I've got a link to one 850 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,879 Speaker 1: in here that's an old TV out of there that's 851 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 1: got this like jazz music playing, and they say, like 852 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,319 Speaker 1: for the slow poor I don't know if they were like, 853 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 1: were there fast pouring ketchups at the time. That just 854 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 1: didn't make the cut over. I'm guessing like your watery 855 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: or ketchups. You know, the more essentially more traditional ketchups 856 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: are coming out as a as a water um or 857 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,320 Speaker 1: also maybe it's a I wonder if there were cases 858 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,960 Speaker 1: where restaurants were cutting their Ketchup with water. Yeah, that 859 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,120 Speaker 1: could be true. I wonder if some still do that. 860 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 1: But so there was a claim made directly by the 861 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,840 Speaker 1: Hinz company that I found recently that they apparently still 862 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 1: enforced slow poor is one of the quality control metrics 863 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: of their Ketchup. Quote, Ketchup exits the iconic glass bottle 864 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: at point zero to eight miles per hour. If the 865 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: viscosity of the Ketchup is greater than the speed, the 866 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,920 Speaker 1: Ketchup is rejected for sale. Uh So this works odd 867 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,239 Speaker 1: to about two point four six ft per minute, or 868 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 1: about one point to five centimeter per second. So they 869 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: claim they reject a batch if it flows faster than that, 870 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 1: But what if it flows slower? Also at what temperature? 871 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:13,839 Speaker 1: So many reeology questions about Ketchup. Well, I imagine these 872 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: are insider details that that the Ketchup testers would be 873 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 1: privy to. Yeah, but here's the thing. What happens And 874 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,120 Speaker 1: we've all had this experience or well, I don't know 875 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 1: if everyone does, because now we have so many scot 876 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 1: bottles of Ketchup, but I I feel like a lot 877 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,279 Speaker 1: of that that experience where you're trying to get the 878 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: ketchup out of the bottle and it won't come out. 879 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,239 Speaker 1: What are you supposed to do? Yeah, Hines claims, if 880 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: you're trying to get the ketchup out of the glass 881 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: bottle and it's stuck, the best method to get it 882 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,720 Speaker 1: flowing is to apply a firm tap to the spot 883 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,800 Speaker 1: on the neck of the bottle where there's there was 884 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 1: a number fifty seven embossed on the glass. Now, I 885 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 1: was looking at an article here that that also deals 886 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 1: with the the the inside business of ketchup production at 887 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: Hines uh npr is all things considered. Ran a great 888 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,879 Speaker 1: story just earlier this year titled Meet the Man who 889 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 1: Guards America Mary Ketchup by by Dan Charles. He's like 890 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: the night at the end of the Last Crusade. You 891 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: know who's their stint is I have waited for you 892 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 1: to come and take the ketchup recipe, but you must 893 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,360 Speaker 1: be worthy, yes, And that that individual is uh kraft 894 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: Heinz ketchup Master. That's his title, Hector azorn No. And 895 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,279 Speaker 1: that's what that's who. The story deals with profiles and 896 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,400 Speaker 1: it's a wonderful look at the modern state of Ketchup 897 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 1: in Hinds global approach to catch up. Um so Asoro 898 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: points out that their ketchups taste has remained constant. The 899 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,640 Speaker 1: Hinds taste has remained constant, but the exact recipe differs 900 00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,640 Speaker 1: from market to market, and this becomes This became an 901 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,040 Speaker 1: issue a few years ago, apparently, as they had to 902 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,320 Speaker 1: come up with a recipe to satisfy all of Europe, 903 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,839 Speaker 1: despite the fact that Germans prefer a ketchup with more 904 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,840 Speaker 1: of a vinegary taste and the British prefer of ketchup 905 00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:00,280 Speaker 1: with more of a spicy taste. And while Osorno doesn't 906 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: spill any secrets, he points out that the American recipe 907 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,360 Speaker 1: had to change at one point in the recent past 908 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,040 Speaker 1: to reflect shifts in well, he's not very specific, shifts 909 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,839 Speaker 1: in flavor, shifts in ingredients. Yeah, it sounds like there 910 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,120 Speaker 1: was a recipe change in order to course correct after 911 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,840 Speaker 1: some unintended shift in flavor of the American version over time. 912 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,239 Speaker 1: And I wonder what that would be. I mean, if 913 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 1: they weren't changing the ingredients, but the flavor of the 914 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,439 Speaker 1: ketchup was changing, I would have to think that would 915 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,440 Speaker 1: be due to the changing flavor of the tomatoes that 916 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,960 Speaker 1: were going into it, because you wouldn't expect like the 917 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,399 Speaker 1: vinegar or the sugar or anything to be changing flavor. Yeah, 918 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 1: and tomato crops are certainly susceptible to a number of factors, 919 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,360 Speaker 1: and ultimately their flavor is is subject to these factors 920 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: and then includes emerging diseases, nitrogen rates, and of course climate. 921 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,960 Speaker 1: And then you have post harvest decisions as well regarding 922 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,120 Speaker 1: storage and transport that could contentially factor into it. I mean, 923 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,400 Speaker 1: it's it's easy to think about the simplicity of ketchup, 924 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,120 Speaker 1: but it's certainly when you're talking about a massive of 925 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 1: company creating Ketchup for the world, that is a complex 926 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,040 Speaker 1: operation with a lot of moving parts. And and so 927 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,320 Speaker 1: it's no surprise that Hines really impacted American commercial agriculture 928 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,080 Speaker 1: and food processing in general. Uh, there's a there's an 929 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,480 Speaker 1: article on smithsonian dot com from by Amy Bentley titled 930 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,800 Speaker 1: how Ketchup revolutionized how food has grown, processed and regulated. 931 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: And I want to read a quick quote from it. 932 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:33,440 Speaker 1: Quote innovations and tomato breeding and mechanical harvester technologies, driven 933 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,720 Speaker 1: in part by demand for the condiment, helped define modern 934 00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,760 Speaker 1: industrial agriculture in the nineteen sixties. You see, Davis scientists 935 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,600 Speaker 1: developed a mechanical tomato harvester. Around the same time, plant 936 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,120 Speaker 1: geneticists perfected a tomato with a thick skin and a 937 00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:52,319 Speaker 1: round shape that could withstand machine harvesting and truck transport. 938 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,160 Speaker 1: This new tomato was arguably short on taste, but the 939 00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,800 Speaker 1: perfect storm of breeding and harvesting technology from which it 940 00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,759 Speaker 1: in merged allowed for a steady supply of tomatoes that 941 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 1: kept bottlers and canners and business. Nearly all of the 942 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 1: tomatoes produced for sauces and ketchup are products of this moment, 943 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:15,040 Speaker 1: as are many other fruits and vegetables produced in the US. 944 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,640 Speaker 1: So think about that. The invention of Hinds tomato ketchup 945 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,520 Speaker 1: by food scientists lead to essentially the reinvention of the 946 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 1: tomato itself. Yeah, and you see this come through. I mean, 947 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,800 Speaker 1: have you ever wondered why if you get a tomato 948 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: with the grocery store, it tastes nothing like a really 949 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,839 Speaker 1: amazing heirloom tomato grown in a garden or by you know, 950 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,960 Speaker 1: by a small farmer or something like. The garden tomato 951 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:44,200 Speaker 1: has so much more flavor. It's it's unbelievable the difference. 952 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:46,600 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that has to do 953 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,360 Speaker 1: with facts about what kinds of you know, what is 954 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,439 Speaker 1: selected for when you're creating a grocery store tomato, which 955 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,520 Speaker 1: is probably similar to an industrial tomato, it's tomatoes that 956 00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: have to be able to survive of the harvesting and 957 00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,760 Speaker 1: transport process and then be appealing in whatever form they're 958 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,279 Speaker 1: they're sold. And so for example, like tomatoes you buy 959 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,719 Speaker 1: the grocery store are probably a big thing that's being 960 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,759 Speaker 1: selected for in the breeding process. Is just them not 961 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 1: getting crushed in being harvested in shipped to the store. Yeah, 962 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,759 Speaker 1: So if you have given up on tomatoes, you think 963 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,080 Speaker 1: you don't like tomatoes, and you're basing that mostly on 964 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:30,160 Speaker 1: grocery store tomatoes, then you really should try, you know, 965 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to, you know, try an heirloom tomato, 966 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,439 Speaker 1: try a farmer's market tomato and uh and and see 967 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: if that doesn't give you something a little different. I 968 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,839 Speaker 1: will say, also a very good compromise if you you know, 969 00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:43,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't have they can't make it 970 00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:45,480 Speaker 1: out to the farmer's market, or it's not the right 971 00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,200 Speaker 1: time of year or whatever. If you're looking for a compromise, 972 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:52,880 Speaker 1: try cherry tomatoes, little grape tomatoes. I think those tend 973 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,319 Speaker 1: to be the best variety of tomato that you can 974 00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,040 Speaker 1: get at a large scale grocery store. So, speaking of 975 00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,919 Speaker 1: grocery stores today, hind Cells about sevent of America's catch 976 00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 1: Up And yes, the product is largely a monolith. But 977 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,440 Speaker 1: but they and other ketchup makers have shaken things up. 978 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,000 Speaker 1: They've experimented with new concepts, and a big part of 979 00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: this is that the very international world that catch Up 980 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,759 Speaker 1: emerged from has kind of come back to challenge it 981 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,719 Speaker 1: in some ways. Um, you know, they're you know, and 982 00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,520 Speaker 1: in some cases that these products are very ketch up 983 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,560 Speaker 1: like in their profile. I mean, consider a Blessed Siracha 984 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:31,680 Speaker 1: sauce or Holy uh gochu Jong sauce, the Korean ketchup 985 00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:36,040 Speaker 1: like sauce. I love gochu Chong. I love it. Yes, 986 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,759 Speaker 1: it's it's it's so good. I've been using it. I 987 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:41,719 Speaker 1: started off, of course, just using it, you know, like 988 00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:43,440 Speaker 1: kin a bee been Bob kind of a bull. But 989 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,160 Speaker 1: now I keep using it on things that, uh that 990 00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,879 Speaker 1: are not even necessarily Korean, just because it's just it's 991 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:50,840 Speaker 1: so good and and and it is kind of like 992 00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,240 Speaker 1: Korean ketchup. In fact, if you do an Amazon search 993 00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,840 Speaker 1: for quote Korean catch up, you will bring up tons 994 00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,720 Speaker 1: of goguchan uh and as well as a answered Hinds 995 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,719 Speaker 1: at it's a very top you know. Here, here's one 996 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:05,560 Speaker 1: good thing you can make in your home. If you 997 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,120 Speaker 1: want something really exciting to dip your tator tots in 998 00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:12,040 Speaker 1: or whatever, just make yourself some gochu jong mannaise. Yeah, 999 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 1: mix it up together. And then there are also changes 1000 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:17,319 Speaker 1: to what you know and what we want out of 1001 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,120 Speaker 1: ingredients in our processed foods. So I feel like when 1002 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,240 Speaker 1: I was a kid, you know, you're pretty much guaranteed 1003 00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,799 Speaker 1: that your your hinds catch up or your any kind 1004 00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:27,720 Speaker 1: of catchup you would buy off the shelf was probably 1005 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,440 Speaker 1: gonna have high fruit dose corn sirr up in it. 1006 00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,840 Speaker 1: And uh. You know, the consumer demands have shifted in 1007 00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:35,919 Speaker 1: many ways away from that. So just a qui quick 1008 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: glance at high at the Hinds website, you'll see that 1009 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,319 Speaker 1: they have a number of varieties available. You can get 1010 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,280 Speaker 1: your no salt added, you no sugar added, you're organic, 1011 00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,680 Speaker 1: you're simply catch up, which is a no GMO ingredients, 1012 00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,520 Speaker 1: no high fruits, corns or version of the product. They 1013 00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,560 Speaker 1: have a honey and reduced sugar sweetened version. They have 1014 00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:59,520 Speaker 1: an added veggies version that is percent added veggies. They 1015 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,640 Speaker 1: claim with carrots and butternut squash um, which is in 1016 00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:05,000 Speaker 1: getting away from the idea of just tomatoes, will be 1017 00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,960 Speaker 1: sneaking some other vegetables in there. And then they also 1018 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,640 Speaker 1: have hot and spicy jalapeno and siracha tomato Ketchup. Do 1019 00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,919 Speaker 1: they make one out of oysters and walnuts and mushrooms? 1020 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,279 Speaker 1: Not yet, but who knows, you know, maybe like the 1021 00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:23,000 Speaker 1: Heinz Britain will be will be the next big brand 1022 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,520 Speaker 1: and school Ketchup. Yeah. And then of course there are 1023 00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:29,920 Speaker 1: those Ketchup slices we mentioned earlier. I'm sorry I shouldn't. Hey, 1024 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure they're fine. I would try I have just 1025 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,000 Speaker 1: had not I've not had the opportunity to try one. Now. 1026 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,879 Speaker 1: In terms of the future of Ketchup, well, I mean 1027 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,200 Speaker 1: it's hard to predict everything with Ketchup. I mean, look 1028 00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:47,680 Speaker 1: at the robot catchup. Let's see cyborg catchip, nano catch failing. Yeah, well, 1029 00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:51,280 Speaker 1: we've already taken Ketchup as well as mustard in various 1030 00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:57,640 Speaker 1: other condiments into space, Uh, into you know, lo G environments, 1031 00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,719 Speaker 1: orbital environments and uh. And it really makes sense because 1032 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:02,600 Speaker 1: it's takes salt and pepper. For instance, you can have 1033 00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,799 Speaker 1: salt and pepper on your food in space, but it 1034 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,040 Speaker 1: has to be in the liquid form. You can't have 1035 00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:12,319 Speaker 1: a you can't have a grind your own pepper and space. Yeah, 1036 00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:15,160 Speaker 1: it would be it would be a risk to the environment, 1037 00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:17,720 Speaker 1: you know, to the machinery. You might never have thought 1038 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,160 Speaker 1: about this as one of the weird things about eating 1039 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,800 Speaker 1: food in space. But food does not fall in space. 1040 00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,919 Speaker 1: So like, you can't put something on your food by 1041 00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,840 Speaker 1: like just dumping it out on top liquids. You have 1042 00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,640 Speaker 1: to get them to adhere to your food if you 1043 00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:37,080 Speaker 1: want them to to stick. And therefore a thick catchup 1044 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,840 Speaker 1: is ideal for a low G or zero G environment. 1045 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:45,160 Speaker 1: I mean in a in a sense catchup. Uh was 1046 00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:49,480 Speaker 1: destined to go into space. It foretold space travel in 1047 00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:53,120 Speaker 1: summer spects. So it's it's reasonable to assume ketchup will 1048 00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,600 Speaker 1: continue to follow us into space and to other planets 1049 00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: even and to flavor the spice melange. Yeah. However, here 1050 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,760 Speaker 1: on Earth, Uh, you know, we're dealing with challenges uh 1051 00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:08,400 Speaker 1: here you know, different challenges, you know, but challenges such 1052 00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:12,200 Speaker 1: as a changing climate, warming Earth, and so companies like 1053 00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,600 Speaker 1: hinz uh and and and other really any major agricultural 1054 00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,720 Speaker 1: um group or having to turn to sustainability efforts to 1055 00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,200 Speaker 1: deal with it, and then there and then their additional 1056 00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,480 Speaker 1: sustainability efforts that uh that others are urging them to 1057 00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,440 Speaker 1: take on. I was looking at how climate change is 1058 00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,240 Speaker 1: impacting an American icon, hines Ketchup, which was from Harvard 1059 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:38,240 Speaker 1: Business Schools HBS Digital Initiative from and basically it discusses 1060 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:42,400 Speaker 1: how ketchup depends on tomatoes, and tomatoes are subject to 1061 00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:46,600 Speaker 1: crop shortages and uh the resulting increased costs as well 1062 00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:51,240 Speaker 1: as the challenges of decreased water availability. So basically they 1063 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 1: point out yet companies like HINS have a number of 1064 00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,880 Speaker 1: sustainable sustainability initiatives already in place, and they could stand 1065 00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,720 Speaker 1: to uh take a few more h in order to 1066 00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:05,440 Speaker 1: safeguard the world's you know, catch up reserves for a 1067 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,040 Speaker 1: future that is going to deal with, you know, a 1068 00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,920 Speaker 1: rapidly changing climate. I can imagine global ketchup shortages having 1069 00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:18,479 Speaker 1: uh profound negative effects. Yeah, now in terms of flavor, though, 1070 00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's kind of kind we already see, uh, 1071 00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, a diversification of ketchup to a certain extent. Uh. 1072 00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:29,040 Speaker 1: You know, I mentioned the examples from the Hinds website. 1073 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,480 Speaker 1: So I don't know, maybe we'll see, Maybe we'll see 1074 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:37,200 Speaker 1: you know, more savory catch ups, maybe return of more 1075 00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:40,480 Speaker 1: vinegar based catchups. Maybe those will become more trendy. Let's 1076 00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:43,320 Speaker 1: see what's going to be made more abundant climate change, 1077 00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:47,160 Speaker 1: maybe algae algae based catch up. But also another thing 1078 00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,280 Speaker 1: to keep in mind is if if we're talking about 1079 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,920 Speaker 1: like changes in you know, the foods that we have 1080 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:57,240 Speaker 1: available to ourselves as we're forced to consider, say more 1081 00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:01,480 Speaker 1: insect based protein sources, like that sounds like a place 1082 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,320 Speaker 1: for ketchup if you ask me. You know, um, well, 1083 01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,919 Speaker 1: in in getting picky kids used to new foods, they 1084 01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,320 Speaker 1: they say ketchup can be helpful. And so maybe if 1085 01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:13,960 Speaker 1: the adults of America are the picky kids you're trying 1086 01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,840 Speaker 1: to get used to intimate FEGI, uh, ketchup could play 1087 01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,000 Speaker 1: a role there. Yeah, I mean thinking if you're if 1088 01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:20,920 Speaker 1: you're if I say, in the future, we're gonna have 1089 01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:23,840 Speaker 1: to eat more bugs. And you think, oh, well, then 1090 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,080 Speaker 1: let me rephrase that. In the future, we'll have to 1091 01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,800 Speaker 1: eat more bugs with ketchup. In the future, there will 1092 01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:34,720 Speaker 1: be various protein based shapes that you can dip in ketchup. Yeah, 1093 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:36,920 Speaker 1: I mean that sounds fine. I mean that's basically what 1094 01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:39,560 Speaker 1: we have now. Like most this is always my argument 1095 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:46,000 Speaker 1: for um, certainly imitation meats, but also for insect based 1096 01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:51,120 Speaker 1: protein uh substances, is that we already have a situation 1097 01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,720 Speaker 1: where the meat has a very ambiguous flavor, if it 1098 01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,400 Speaker 1: even has a flavor at all, and then we're depending 1099 01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,160 Speaker 1: so heavily on the fact that it's fry, on the 1100 01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,560 Speaker 1: fact that it's then dipped and catch up or you know, 1101 01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,600 Speaker 1: some other sauce but probably catch up. Then you know, 1102 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,040 Speaker 1: why why not have a more sustainable substance? At the 1103 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,720 Speaker 1: heart of that why does the why is the burger? 1104 01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:14,760 Speaker 1: And then many of these cases need to be made 1105 01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:19,200 Speaker 1: from a cow, given the environmental costs all of that cow, 1106 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,920 Speaker 1: when it could be it could be anything, because the burger, 1107 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,880 Speaker 1: the fast food burger, just really does not depend upon 1108 01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,400 Speaker 1: the flavor of the patty. Say hello to the cricket, 1109 01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,480 Speaker 1: big mac. Yeah, and really This gets back to the 1110 01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,880 Speaker 1: the ancient history of the sauce. Thinking of the sauce 1111 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:37,400 Speaker 1: not so much as this luxury, as this thing that 1112 01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,360 Speaker 1: makes a nice thing nicer, but perhaps the thing that 1113 01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,400 Speaker 1: can make an unpleasant thing edible, you know, or or 1114 01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,320 Speaker 1: you know, something that is going to add not just 1115 01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:51,120 Speaker 1: a fun spice, but a necessary spice to life. All right, 1116 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:55,880 Speaker 1: So there you have it, the invention of catch up. Now, obviously, 1117 01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,040 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from listeners about this episode because 1118 01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,720 Speaker 1: most of you have probably had ketchup and uh and 1119 01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:06,040 Speaker 1: and many of you have been exposed to perhaps strange 1120 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:08,520 Speaker 1: users of ketchup in your own life, or you've traveled 1121 01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,480 Speaker 1: around and you've got to try. Maybe you have some 1122 01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:14,560 Speaker 1: experience sampling ketchups in different markets in different countries. I 1123 01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:17,280 Speaker 1: want to hear from the people who have never had ketchup. 1124 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,320 Speaker 1: I never tried it once, right in. I don't know 1125 01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,120 Speaker 1: if that's possible. I would love to hear from that 1126 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:25,600 Speaker 1: human being, um, but I will be surprised when we 1127 01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:28,880 Speaker 1: actually hear from them. In the meantime, if you want 1128 01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:31,600 Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Invention, head on over 1129 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:35,240 Speaker 1: to invention pod dot com. And yeah, some of these 1130 01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:39,160 Speaker 1: are food based, but we have most for more technology based. Though, 1131 01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:41,680 Speaker 1: as we've discussed here, you cannot discuss the history of 1132 01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,760 Speaker 1: food without discussing the history of technology. Food preparation is 1133 01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:49,400 Speaker 1: a human technology. Food is technology. Is not technology just 1134 01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,120 Speaker 1: because you eat it. Yeah, well, I mean it's the 1135 01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:55,040 Speaker 1: product of technology at least I don't know. Uh, depends 1136 01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,040 Speaker 1: how you pull apart the terms. But at any rate, 1137 01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:59,520 Speaker 1: we've had a we've had a few food related topics 1138 01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:02,240 Speaker 1: that we have the pisode on chopsticks, of course, on 1139 01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:06,840 Speaker 1: pooping automata, yeah, yeah, and I imagine we'll return to 1140 01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,560 Speaker 1: do other food based topics in the future. We did 1141 01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,400 Speaker 1: bread and toast. Bread and toast, yes, another key key 1142 01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:17,080 Speaker 1: advancement in human culinary technology, and now we have catch 1143 01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,120 Speaker 1: up to put on top of that. Um. But hey, 1144 01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:21,960 Speaker 1: if you want to support this show, the best thing 1145 01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,120 Speaker 1: you can do is make sure you have subscribed, and 1146 01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,200 Speaker 1: wherever you get the show, make sure you have rated 1147 01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:29,680 Speaker 1: and reviewed it because that helps us out as well. 1148 01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,160 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 1149 01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,680 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 1150 01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:37,800 Speaker 1: with us to let us know feedback on this episode 1151 01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:40,120 Speaker 1: or any other to suggest a topic for the future, 1152 01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,240 Speaker 1: to let us know that you've never once tried, catchup, 1153 01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:45,480 Speaker 1: or just to say hello. You can email us at 1154 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:53,360 Speaker 1: contact at invention pod dot com. Invention is production of 1155 01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:56,080 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio 1156 01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,760 Speaker 1: is the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1157 01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,520 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. Two two two