WEBVTT - Episode 11: Bonus Episode 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:03.840 School of Humans. 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:08.880 This show follows the investigation of serial murders and contains 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.880 material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion advised. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:22.159 Welcome everybody. Kurt Kubachek here, Thank you so much for 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.239 tuning in to our bonus episode. I wanted to bring 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:27.520 you all back because there was a lot of things 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.280 we wanted to share with you all, including more in 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:34.839 depth interviews with Cecilia Stein. We'll also hear great insight 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:39.280 from Nicky Falkoff and more from Merinduz Stein. So I've 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:41.960 got Jennifer Tacchini, my co producer, here with me. 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:42.560 Hi. 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:44.479 It's great to be back, and. 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.800 Also I'm really excited to introduce another important team member, 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:49.839 our lead producer, Julia chriscau. 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:51.120 Hey, good to be here. 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:53.720 We're going to tie up some loose ends of the case, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:57.200 including what we currently know about the open investigation into 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:02.160 Colonel Diyager, Captain Johann van Vick, and Cecilia's husband, Officer 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.120 Jari Stein. We'll also take you through everything, including some 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.240 of our wild adventures on the ground in South Africa. 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.000 If you've gotten this far, we appreciate you coming to 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:21.560 the bonus episode of Queen havoc Here's doctor Niki Falcoff. 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.600 These countries with these kind of really big, opaque governments 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:30.280 and these really really complex, angry, difficult histories of violence, 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.280 and these societies that are very diverse, where lots of 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:35.040 people feel left out, you know, in a way that 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:40.080 you wouldn't necessarily get in Western Europe. Is there something 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.880 about those kinds of societies that makes people more susceptible 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:46.560 to the sort of charisma that you know, a Manson 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.240 or a Cecilia Stein has quite possibly? 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.600 Well I met Cecilia Stein this week. Oh my god? Yeah, 0:01:53.640 --> 0:02:03.400 how is that? Most people could fall prey to her? Okay, 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:09.480 instantly when we met it began her control. Yeah, she 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.160 was on it the moment it started. 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:18.280 So she there's some kind of manipulative skill that this 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.720 person has that is beyond the understanding of most of us. 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:26.840 And if you're not, i mean really hyper self aware, 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:28.040 you wouldn't see it. 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:30.640 Wow, imagine if she used her powers for good? 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:36.880 So what was that like being in her presence then? 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:38.520 So I know we talked a little bit about it 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:40.720 in the episodes, but like, did you feel that she 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:42.920 was like working that charm on you all when you 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:44.399 were meeting her in the prison. 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:47.400 I think so. I mean immediately when we walked in 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:49.800 the room, we were introduced to a lot of the 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:53.080 staff and a lot of the people that were there. 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:59.520 And it really felt like we had to remind ourselves 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:01.919 where we were because it felt like just a casual 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:06.280 conversation with friends and you know, just catching up, you know, 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:07.000 over coffee. 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.320 As a reminder, Sun City is one of the most 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:14.760 dangerous prisons in South Africa. She instantly welcomed us. She 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.280 just went in for hugs. It wasn't like we had 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:22.680 a choice. But she was lovely and friendly and I 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.880 mean she made everybody in the whole area know that 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:29.840 we were there to see her. And I mean she's 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.359 laughing and giggling. She doesn't take anything really that seriously 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:36.400 with us. She tried to keep everything really really light. 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:41.520 I mean, she brought us into you know, where you forgot. 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.280 It's strange when you obviously are like, how could you 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:46.600 do this to people? And how could you, you know, 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:50.240 do this manipulate people, abuse religion, you know, cause people 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:54.280 to take lives, and then you're actually with these people 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.640 and they're kind to you and they're respectful to you, 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.040 and you obviously have your especially with Cecilia going Okay, 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.160 she's she's playing chess too, so and I think that 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:07.320 was the biggest thing me and Jennifer, you know, was like, 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.760 always remember she's she can't shut that off. She she's 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:12.760 always going to be Cecilia. She's always going to be 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.600 playing chess. So don't get too comfortable. Yep, don't get 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:19.640 too comfortable. So but I mean, Mirinda, as you heard 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:21.680 in the series, you know, I was pretty rocked after 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.919 meeting her. But what was I think so overwhelming for 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.200 me is that she was really really nice to me, 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:33.120 and to know that just in a quickness that she 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:38.040 could go and turn into whether it's because of her manipulated, 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:43.800 brainwashed you know, kind of psyche about Cecilia, or she's 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:46.680 just capable of that and has that deep thing right. 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.680 But the scariest part is I saw the high school teacher. Yeah, 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:54.039 I literally experienced the high school teacher when I sat 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:59.200 with her, which was the daytime. Yeah, the daytime, Mirinda. 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.960 Yeah, you know, and it seems like everyone had kind 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.320 of a split personality. I mean Luke talks about that 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.719 as well. Oh yeah, you know, having feeling like he's 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:10.560 one person during the day and then at night he's himself. 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.120 And it's so horrible to have to put on this 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:16.960 mask all the time. But I feel like for Cecilia 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:21.120 and eventually Marinda, probably it didn't feel like a mask anymore, right, 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:22.240 It just became who they were. 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.919 I see myself as I see myself as a vigilante. 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.919 And then I thought, okay, Marenda, so I fetched my 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:34.200 old broken dictionary and it says that a person who 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:34.960 takes care. 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:36.159 Of a criminal act. 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.520 So you might not agree with the vigilante. 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:41.159 See, the people. 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.240 That we killed were bad, but they were. 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.039 Potatoes. Okay. 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:53.000 I think one of the most interesting quotes from Cecilia 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.400 that you all got was that Cecilia means blindness. 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.120 Even in court, you listen to people testify and it's 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.839 the opinion of something that happened. Just example, in court, 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.360 the prosecutor was explaining to me what might tattoos mean, 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.400 and I have an eye tattooed on my shoulder and 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:16.960 he was saying that it's the eye of run. I'm 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.440 going no, my name is Cecilia. It means blindness. 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:27.359 She is using her charm to real people in but 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.800 she's completely blind to their experience. To like anyone else's 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.720 experience besides her own, which is like the narcissist psychopath 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:35.839 thing that's happening. 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.640 At one point I asked Cecilia how it felt to 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:46.240 be labeled the female Charles Manson, and this was a response. 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.640 Well, this is the first time I'm hearing someone saying 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.480 that I'm the female version of Charles Manson. I don't 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.840 know a lot about him, but will definitely go check 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.479 up on that. I was always over to present myself. 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.200 It's something that inchiegued me. I do believe he was female. 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:10.120 Just for the record, it's not a sexisting Females are 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.160 so much better at everything else. What's this saying? Give 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.360 what the devil isn't able to do? You'll send a woman. 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:26.480 I believe that she saw this avenue into these people 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:31.680 of Let me give you purpose correct, Let me give 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:34.320 you I need to be taken care of, I need 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.440 your money, I need a ride, I need your help. 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:44.000 Let me give you something to be purposeful about. And 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.920 that's what I think is slightly unique about this. You know, 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:52.000 this serial mastermind, whatever all the different names they give her, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:57.760 it's just a unique brand into finding people that specifically 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.600 have this need to nurture. 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:01.320 Yeah. 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:03.560 No, that's actually a very very very good point that 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.400 I hadn't thought of. I'm thinking about cut leaders that 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.280 I know a little bit about, people like the Jonestown 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.560 crime and other kind of massive cut leaders. What they 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:14.760 tend to do is they do provide people with the 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:16.920 sense of purpose, but in the sense that they go, 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:18.960 you must follow me, and then you two will be 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.600 strong like me. Their charisma is about strength and power, 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.800 whereas what she did was almost about weakness. She was 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.520 constantly showing how vulnerable she is. I wonder if that's 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.520 something to do with being a female cult leader rather 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:35.640 than a male cult leader. That you cannot take this huge, 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.040 vast patriarchal position where you go I am God, I 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.600 am Jesus, everyone must follow me. Instead you go, I 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:43.000 am I am the thing that needs to be saved 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.319 from the greatest evil around, and you must all collectively 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.360 save me, and in doing so you save yourselves. 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:52.120 Yes, and you're doing something good and you're doing something righteous. 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.520 Cecilia used pity as a manipulation tactic wherever she could. 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:01.719 She never failed to mention her sicknes even with us. 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:03.760 I think, at the end of the day, it was 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.520 just a group of people really taking care of each other. 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.920 I was the one that was sick the whole time. Yeah, 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:13.600 my lungs and messed up, Yes, all of those things. 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.480 But it wasn't just taking care of me because I 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.480 was sick. We were friends. We cooked together, we ate 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:24.319 together every day, we visited together every day. I think 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.559 it was more just being there. I know in the 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.000 court case they pulled that out of proportion, but it 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.320 was really just a group of people taking care of 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:37.680 each other. So, yeah, what they're saying, Korn, what happens 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:40.840 in real life is too completely completely different things. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:46.080 Cecilia is chock full of contradiction herself, constantly creating a 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:50.280 facade to hide behind. Detective Ben Boysen told us that 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.560 he believes Cecilia and EPD to be connected to at 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.800 least four more murders, ones that he couldn't prove. 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:02.040 I linked them actually with were fifteen murders, but I 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.960 could only prove leven, so I only took that eleven 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.080 cases to court at the end of the day. 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.840 Ben also did some digging into Cecilia's background before the 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:14.719 days of Ria grunivald An. 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:21.120 EPD even began going back Cecilia's husband had a girlfriend 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:25.000 in two thousand and five, and eventually she was also 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.280 killed in a brutal way. But in two thousand and five, 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.600 Zach Valentine and Marenda and those people was not part 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:36.640 of her So I don't know if Cecilia did that 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:41.280 killing by herself or was there at that stage other 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:46.880 people in her life that she was convincing to kill people. 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.319 Ye, it's like Suside said she could open a university 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:52.160 to teach people manipulation. 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.960 Yeah. I mean she had them believe that. You know, 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.040 she gave everybody a teddy bear, and they believed that 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.320 she embodied the teddy bear and that she could watch 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.080 them through the teddy bear and all their actions. And 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.800 so Marcelle and the room believe that they're being watched 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:06.480 at all times. 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:07.360 Let go of that. 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.920 She never admitted anything to us with regard to the 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.680 crimes and told us her versions of everything. We knew 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:17.760 that there was a dark side or a shadow version 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.800 of herself that she didn't show us, which was capable 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:23.559 of saying and doing whatever it took to get what 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:24.120 she wanted. 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.480 I was believed there's no biggo small sense citizen, whether 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:33.680 you lie or kill or steal. Some people steal chocolates, 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:39.920 some people steal people's lives. Yeah, waither it's it's shoplifting 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:46.280 or murder or there's no bigg or small citizen. So yeah, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.800 I don't have the right to judge anybody. I think 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:51.280 we just. 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.880 As you know, we'll be right back. 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.320 A lot of those common and grifters end up being 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.640 religious leaders and then they just become common and grifters 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.040 at a larger scale, right. I'm just I'm thinking about 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:14.360 the kind of really extractive evangelical churches that are popping 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.760 up all over South Africa, where people who have very 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:18.920 very very little are giving most of what they have 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:19.720 to a preacher. 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.360 I would love to dive into that, because we've also 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.720 found our way to attend one of the church that 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.800 one of the police officers who's under investigation right now 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:30.559 is pastoring. 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:31.600 Oh wow. 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.839 Basically we found out while we were there that Diyogart 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.960 had opened up some kind of a small congregation of 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.120 his own. I know, this is absolutely insane, right after 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.560 hearing everything we just did. So on the day that 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.280 I was set to go into the prison to see 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:55.839 Merinda Stein, Jennifer was very interested in obviously joining me, 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.719 but the only time of this church service was the 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.679 day I was set to go in to the prison. 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.280 So I kind of, you know, looked at Jennifer and said, hey, 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:08.640 I know you're going to be on your own here 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.400 pretty much, but I think this is really important, don't 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.160 you think? And she totally agreed. So, Jennifer, you want 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:15.240 to tell me about that day? 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:20.480 Yeah. So I really was curious about Diagar and wanted 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:25.040 to ask him some questions. We really wanted to get 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.280 the perspective of the detectives that we hadn't spoken to. 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.800 We hopped in a car with one of our colleagues 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:34.960 from South Africa and drove two hours outside of Johannesburg 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:39.240 and pulled up and unfortunately I was left my own 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.040 devices to go and by myself, and we were running 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.600 a little bit late. So unfortunately the church had started 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:51.439 and approached the you know, it was like a small house, 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.479 similar to like a house in the valley in Los Angeles. 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:57.800 It was a little paranoid about going in. What I 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:02.120 was I going to say, hadn't really prepared the questions 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.160 or you know, what the approach was. Because I knew 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:06.920 that he was a pastor of this church, and so 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.280 it was a delicate process to try to be able 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.880 to speak to him. And walked up to the ornately 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:17.880 carved wooden doors and pushed lightly on them, and it 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:19.840 was locked, and so I thought I had an out, 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.720 and then I turned around to leave, and then a 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.160 person unlocked the door and opened the door and welcomed 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.560 me in. And as soon as I stepped into the church, 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:34.840 the room went silent, and I was staring directly at Diager, 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:40.640 who was at the pulpit. He was maybe around five 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:46.560 eight five ' nine, late fifties, short hair like piercing 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:52.800 blue eyes, with a big presence. He kind of teeters 0:14:52.880 --> 0:15:00.400 between like lovable grandpa and tony soprano. And he's slowly 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:06.160 walked down through about thirty chairs of people and embraced 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.960 me in a hug and had me sit down on 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:14.760 the back row near a fireplace. The guy that was 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:18.040 standing guard at the door locked the door, and I 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.760 immediately scanned the room looking for windows, doors, some type 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.400 of exit, and there were bars on the windows. There 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.280 was one back door, but that was it, and then 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.680 there was a fireplace and that was it. So I 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.400 was kind of stuck in this room and I tried 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:36.680 to blend in to the best of my ability, but 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.160 the whole church service was an Afrikaan. So as soon 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.840 as the singing started, they there were several individuals in 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:49.520 the congregation that stood up and they started waving red flags. Wow, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.640 like you don't need anything more clear than a huge 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.720 red flag waving in your face to get the hell out. 0:15:55.520 --> 0:16:00.360 Of the universe was like, go nack it out. The 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.080 fact that you were locked in where you're like, I 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:03.880 feel like I would have been like shaking, Like my 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:04.960 hands would have been shaking. 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:05.840 Oh yeah. 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:10.200 I mean the thing is once the door locked, knowing 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:15.840 doom right now, Yeah, knowing the door locked, knowing knowing 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.320 what I knew about Deoger, I think was the scariest 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.520 thing because here you have this guy who's at the pulpit, 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.400 you know, giving a sermon for families, for there were 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:27.880 children in there, you know, like it was a family church, 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:34.400 and he presented himself as this family man you know, 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:40.000 that was helping the congregation. And that's one side of him, 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:41.960 and you know, we knew another side of him. 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:44.640 But so it was all different kinds of people. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:46.359 Family, yeah, family. 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.000 Young people yes. And then at one point, so they 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:51.080 were singing hymns, and he asked a couple of people 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.040 to come to the front and and then a person 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.080 started speaking in tongues, started convulsing and then collapsed onto 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:02.360 the floor, and Dioger and some congregation members came and 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.680 helped her up. As this was all going on, our colleague, 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:11.280 who was out in the car outside texted me saying, look, 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:17.000 you need to tread carefully because this is a private church, 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.359 this is a private home. He is still a detective, 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:24.280 still in the force, and if he feels like you're 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:29.600 being aggressive with him or you know, too confrontational, he 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.320 could arrest you. You know, you're trespassing on his property. 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:37.800 So the service wrapped up and Diager again walked down 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.760 the aisle towards me and in English, you know, asked 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.040 me if I wanted to come join the congregation in 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.960 the back room for coffee and tea afterwards. And so 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.320 followed them all in there and let into a really 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.520 small back room. It was tiled floor, there were windows, 0:17:55.280 --> 0:18:01.720 and the congregation all surrounded me and they handed me coffee. 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.320 Were you said at ease a little bit now that 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:05.440 you had witnesses? 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.480 So you yeah, there were I think I was a 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.520 little bit more at ease, but at the same time, 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.639 my anxiety was, you know, peeking, because I didn't know 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:16.560 what I was going to do, because I thought, oh, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:18.479 I was going to approach him ask him some questions 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:23.159 about the case, and then realizing that that's probably not 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:27.680 the best idea, and the congregation surrounding me and then 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.240 his wife. His wife comes up to me and was 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.720 really close, you know. They the congregation was very curious 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.400 about who I was and how I came to be there, 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.800 because this was two hours outside of a main city, 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:45.000 and I told them that I told him that I 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.199 had found the church through Facebook, which is true. And 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:52.920 then I also had our South African colleague texting me, going, 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.639 do not do anything stupid, like I can only bail 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:58.720 you out so far. You know, you don't end up 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.800 the same prison as Celia and Mirinda and the rest 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.320 of electisprudeus, which I don't know if that's actually possible. 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:11.040 But so it got awkward because as everyone was surrounding 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.199 me asking questions and I didn't, I was kind of 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.240 backing up against the corner, you know, not really sure 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.280 what to say to get out of there, because I 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.920 wasn't going to take this opportunity to confront him with 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.800 his wife and his congregation. There's kids, you know, It's 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:27.320 like this was not the time and the place, and 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:32.280 so I just sort of cut out and said it 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:35.280 was so nice to be here, and shook everyone's hand, 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.200 and then quickly ran out to the street in search 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.480 of our colleagues car, and they were not anywhere to 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.920 be seen, and so I ran down the block as 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:49.119 fast as I could try to find their car and 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.440 found it, hopped in and we sped away as fast 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.520 as we could. But the scary thing was on the 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:59.320 drive back, another one of the colleagues that we had 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.320 met with in South Africa while we are there, texted 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:06.640 me and said, oh, Diagar mentioned that you visited him 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.840 at church today and I hadn't, you know, I hadn't 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.280 told them anything or you know, any name, or you know, 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:16.800 maybe because I was from the States, like that was 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:20.399 their connection. But and that was really scary that he 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.320 knew who I was the whole time. 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.560 So in seguence of events, so Cecilia gets convicted in 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:41.399 August of twenty nineteen. Then, I mean, obviously Dreams was 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:43.800 implicated in some of the testimony, right, because he was 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:46.400 living there, so he had to be aware of some 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.400 of it. Is it safe to say that Ben Boyson 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:53.560 was like, Okay, this is not over and in order 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.360 to like actually end this, like there's a larger problem here, 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:00.439 which is there's corruption and organized crime happen in the 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.159 police force, which Dion Venvick talks about a lot. 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:07.720 As a young prosecutor in nineteen ninety three, you would 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:09.480 have blind me out of the wood if you told 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:15.159 me then this is what South Africa would become. So 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:22.760 there is an element of how shall I explain cancer 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:28.000 in our model fiber on On ground level. 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:32.120 It's safe to say that Ben wanted to get these 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:33.080 guys behind bars. 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:37.840 Ultimately, what we know of is the Yager was removed 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.199 from the police service without a pension. 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.280 This was November twenty twenty two, right, and you all 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.040 were there in August of twenty twenty two. So November 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:50.720 twenty twenty two, Diyager was removed from the force I think, 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.440 a month before his pension was supposed to kick in. Yes, 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:59.840 and there's currently an open investigation that could put him 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:00.520 by bars. 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.880 I'm curious what you think Diager's motivations might have been 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.639 because you know, we obviously know from what we just 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:11.840 heard from you Jonnifer, that he is like a god 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:16.679 fearing individual. And I wonder, you know, do we know 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:20.480 anything about how Cecilia may have manipulated him, Like was 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:23.520 he just terrified of her because he also believed the 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.440 satanic stuff? Do you think she was like paying him 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.200 off maybe to keep them safe, Like maybe that's where 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.520 Zach Valentine and John Barnard's money was all going, do 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:35.960 you know, ensure their all of their safety. 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:38.879 I don't know, but my gut tells me that this 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:42.360 is money from learning everything we did when we were 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:47.280 there and the investigation and how underpaid and overworked the 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.440 police force is. I think this is just something where 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:54.040 you know, he was able to make a little bit 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:58.040 extra money. He had known and had a prior relationship 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:00.879 with Cecilia, so there was kind of a give and 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:05.560 take of you know, financial things and also gifts. I 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:09.920 think Ben mentioned that in the series, and that kind 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:12.760 of thing was going on because at the end of 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.320 the day, I think there was just too much to risk, 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:18.720 possibly for Diager if there wasn't money involved. 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.639 The problem is the global system of capitalism that if 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:24.800 a woman was in charge, she would also be stuck 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:27.240 with And I think that's also why this particular case 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.040 caught people's attention so dramatically, because we are all so 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:32.879 horrified by the idea that women could do this, particularly 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:37.000 by the idea that a mother, a mother would sully 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:42.720 her daughter in this way. It's absolutely horrifying and you know, 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:45.840 fascinatingly sensational at the same time. So I think that's 0:23:45.960 --> 0:23:48.320 drawn a lot of attention to this case. 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:56.720