Speaker 1: School of Humans.
Speaker 2: This show follows the investigation of serial murders and contains
Speaker 2: material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion advised.
Speaker 3: Welcome everybody. Kurt Kubachek here, Thank you so much for
Speaker 3: tuning in to our bonus episode. I wanted to bring
Speaker 3: you all back because there was a lot of things
Speaker 3: we wanted to share with you all, including more in
Speaker 3: depth interviews with Cecilia Stein. We'll also hear great insight
Speaker 3: from Nicky Falkoff and more from Merinduz Stein. So I've
Speaker 3: got Jennifer Tacchini, my co producer, here with me.
Speaker 4: Hi.
Speaker 2: It's great to be back, and.
Speaker 3: Also I'm really excited to introduce another important team member,
Speaker 3: our lead producer, Julia chriscau.
Speaker 5: Hey, good to be here.
Speaker 3: We're going to tie up some loose ends of the case,
Speaker 3: including what we currently know about the open investigation into
Speaker 3: Colonel Diyager, Captain Johann van Vick, and Cecilia's husband, Officer
Speaker 3: Jari Stein. We'll also take you through everything, including some
Speaker 3: of our wild adventures on the ground in South Africa.
Speaker 3: If you've gotten this far, we appreciate you coming to
Speaker 3: the bonus episode of Queen havoc Here's doctor Niki Falcoff.
Speaker 5: These countries with these kind of really big, opaque governments
Speaker 5: and these really really complex, angry, difficult histories of violence,
Speaker 5: and these societies that are very diverse, where lots of
Speaker 5: people feel left out, you know, in a way that
Speaker 5: you wouldn't necessarily get in Western Europe. Is there something
Speaker 5: about those kinds of societies that makes people more susceptible
Speaker 5: to the sort of charisma that you know, a Manson
Speaker 5: or a Cecilia Stein has quite possibly?
Speaker 3: Well I met Cecilia Stein this week. Oh my god? Yeah,
Speaker 3: how is that? Most people could fall prey to her? Okay,
Speaker 3: instantly when we met it began her control. Yeah, she
Speaker 3: was on it the moment it started.
Speaker 5: So she there's some kind of manipulative skill that this
Speaker 5: person has that is beyond the understanding of most of us.
Speaker 3: And if you're not, i mean really hyper self aware,
Speaker 3: you wouldn't see it.
Speaker 5: Wow, imagine if she used her powers for good?
Speaker 2: So what was that like being in her presence then?
Speaker 2: So I know we talked a little bit about it
Speaker 2: in the episodes, but like, did you feel that she
Speaker 2: was like working that charm on you all when you
Speaker 2: were meeting her in the prison.
Speaker 6: I think so. I mean immediately when we walked in
Speaker 6: the room, we were introduced to a lot of the
Speaker 6: staff and a lot of the people that were there.
Speaker 6: And it really felt like we had to remind ourselves
Speaker 6: where we were because it felt like just a casual
Speaker 6: conversation with friends and you know, just catching up, you know,
Speaker 6: over coffee.
Speaker 3: As a reminder, Sun City is one of the most
Speaker 3: dangerous prisons in South Africa. She instantly welcomed us. She
Speaker 3: just went in for hugs. It wasn't like we had
Speaker 3: a choice. But she was lovely and friendly and I
Speaker 3: mean she made everybody in the whole area know that
Speaker 3: we were there to see her. And I mean she's
Speaker 3: laughing and giggling. She doesn't take anything really that seriously
Speaker 3: with us. She tried to keep everything really really light.
Speaker 3: I mean, she brought us into you know, where you forgot.
Speaker 3: It's strange when you obviously are like, how could you
Speaker 3: do this to people? And how could you, you know,
Speaker 3: do this manipulate people, abuse religion, you know, cause people
Speaker 3: to take lives, and then you're actually with these people
Speaker 3: and they're kind to you and they're respectful to you,
Speaker 3: and you obviously have your especially with Cecilia going Okay,
Speaker 3: she's she's playing chess too, so and I think that
Speaker 3: was the biggest thing me and Jennifer, you know, was like,
Speaker 3: always remember she's she can't shut that off. She she's
Speaker 3: always going to be Cecilia. She's always going to be
Speaker 3: playing chess. So don't get too comfortable. Yep, don't get
Speaker 3: too comfortable. So but I mean, Mirinda, as you heard
Speaker 3: in the series, you know, I was pretty rocked after
Speaker 3: meeting her. But what was I think so overwhelming for
Speaker 3: me is that she was really really nice to me,
Speaker 3: and to know that just in a quickness that she
Speaker 3: could go and turn into whether it's because of her manipulated,
Speaker 3: brainwashed you know, kind of psyche about Cecilia, or she's
Speaker 3: just capable of that and has that deep thing right.
Speaker 3: But the scariest part is I saw the high school teacher. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I literally experienced the high school teacher when I sat
Speaker 3: with her, which was the daytime. Yeah, the daytime, Mirinda.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and it seems like everyone had kind
Speaker 2: of a split personality. I mean Luke talks about that
Speaker 2: as well. Oh yeah, you know, having feeling like he's
Speaker 2: one person during the day and then at night he's himself.
Speaker 2: And it's so horrible to have to put on this
Speaker 2: mask all the time. But I feel like for Cecilia
Speaker 2: and eventually Marinda, probably it didn't feel like a mask anymore, right,
Speaker 2: It just became who they were.
Speaker 7: I see myself as I see myself as a vigilante.
Speaker 7: And then I thought, okay, Marenda, so I fetched my
Speaker 7: old broken dictionary and it says that a person who
Speaker 7: takes care.
Speaker 5: Of a criminal act.
Speaker 7: So you might not agree with the vigilante.
Speaker 5: See, the people.
Speaker 7: That we killed were bad, but they were.
Speaker 3: Potatoes. Okay.
Speaker 2: I think one of the most interesting quotes from Cecilia
Speaker 2: that you all got was that Cecilia means blindness.
Speaker 1: Even in court, you listen to people testify and it's
Speaker 1: the opinion of something that happened. Just example, in court,
Speaker 1: the prosecutor was explaining to me what might tattoos mean,
Speaker 1: and I have an eye tattooed on my shoulder and
Speaker 1: he was saying that it's the eye of run. I'm
Speaker 1: going no, my name is Cecilia. It means blindness.
Speaker 2: She is using her charm to real people in but
Speaker 2: she's completely blind to their experience. To like anyone else's
Speaker 2: experience besides her own, which is like the narcissist psychopath
Speaker 2: thing that's happening.
Speaker 3: At one point I asked Cecilia how it felt to
Speaker 3: be labeled the female Charles Manson, and this was a response.
Speaker 1: Well, this is the first time I'm hearing someone saying
Speaker 1: that I'm the female version of Charles Manson. I don't
Speaker 1: know a lot about him, but will definitely go check
Speaker 1: up on that. I was always over to present myself.
Speaker 1: It's something that inchiegued me. I do believe he was female.
Speaker 1: Just for the record, it's not a sexisting Females are
Speaker 1: so much better at everything else. What's this saying? Give
Speaker 1: what the devil isn't able to do? You'll send a woman.
Speaker 3: I believe that she saw this avenue into these people
Speaker 3: of Let me give you purpose correct, Let me give
Speaker 3: you I need to be taken care of, I need
Speaker 3: your money, I need a ride, I need your help.
Speaker 3: Let me give you something to be purposeful about. And
Speaker 3: that's what I think is slightly unique about this. You know,
Speaker 3: this serial mastermind, whatever all the different names they give her,
Speaker 3: it's just a unique brand into finding people that specifically
Speaker 3: have this need to nurture.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: No, that's actually a very very very good point that
Speaker 5: I hadn't thought of. I'm thinking about cut leaders that
Speaker 5: I know a little bit about, people like the Jonestown
Speaker 5: crime and other kind of massive cut leaders. What they
Speaker 5: tend to do is they do provide people with the
Speaker 5: sense of purpose, but in the sense that they go,
Speaker 5: you must follow me, and then you two will be
Speaker 5: strong like me. Their charisma is about strength and power,
Speaker 5: whereas what she did was almost about weakness. She was
Speaker 5: constantly showing how vulnerable she is. I wonder if that's
Speaker 5: something to do with being a female cult leader rather
Speaker 5: than a male cult leader. That you cannot take this huge,
Speaker 5: vast patriarchal position where you go I am God, I
Speaker 5: am Jesus, everyone must follow me. Instead you go, I
Speaker 5: am I am the thing that needs to be saved
Speaker 5: from the greatest evil around, and you must all collectively
Speaker 5: save me, and in doing so you save yourselves.
Speaker 3: Yes, and you're doing something good and you're doing something righteous.
Speaker 3: Cecilia used pity as a manipulation tactic wherever she could.
Speaker 3: She never failed to mention her sicknes even with us.
Speaker 1: I think, at the end of the day, it was
Speaker 1: just a group of people really taking care of each other.
Speaker 1: I was the one that was sick the whole time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my lungs and messed up, Yes, all of those things.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't just taking care of me because I
Speaker 1: was sick. We were friends. We cooked together, we ate
Speaker 1: together every day, we visited together every day. I think
Speaker 1: it was more just being there. I know in the
Speaker 1: court case they pulled that out of proportion, but it
Speaker 1: was really just a group of people taking care of
Speaker 1: each other. So, yeah, what they're saying, Korn, what happens
Speaker 1: in real life is too completely completely different things.
Speaker 3: Cecilia is chock full of contradiction herself, constantly creating a
Speaker 3: facade to hide behind. Detective Ben Boysen told us that
Speaker 3: he believes Cecilia and EPD to be connected to at
Speaker 3: least four more murders, ones that he couldn't prove.
Speaker 8: I linked them actually with were fifteen murders, but I
Speaker 8: could only prove leven, so I only took that eleven
Speaker 8: cases to court at the end of the day.
Speaker 3: Ben also did some digging into Cecilia's background before the
Speaker 3: days of Ria grunivald An.
Speaker 8: EPD even began going back Cecilia's husband had a girlfriend
Speaker 8: in two thousand and five, and eventually she was also
Speaker 8: killed in a brutal way. But in two thousand and five,
Speaker 8: Zach Valentine and Marenda and those people was not part
Speaker 8: of her So I don't know if Cecilia did that
Speaker 8: killing by herself or was there at that stage other
Speaker 8: people in her life that she was convincing to kill people.
Speaker 2: Ye, it's like Suside said she could open a university
Speaker 2: to teach people manipulation.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean she had them believe that. You know,
Speaker 6: she gave everybody a teddy bear, and they believed that
Speaker 6: she embodied the teddy bear and that she could watch
Speaker 6: them through the teddy bear and all their actions. And
Speaker 6: so Marcelle and the room believe that they're being watched
Speaker 6: at all times.
Speaker 1: Let go of that.
Speaker 3: She never admitted anything to us with regard to the
Speaker 3: crimes and told us her versions of everything. We knew
Speaker 3: that there was a dark side or a shadow version
Speaker 3: of herself that she didn't show us, which was capable
Speaker 3: of saying and doing whatever it took to get what
Speaker 3: she wanted.
Speaker 1: I was believed there's no biggo small sense citizen, whether
Speaker 1: you lie or kill or steal. Some people steal chocolates,
Speaker 1: some people steal people's lives. Yeah, waither it's it's shoplifting
Speaker 1: or murder or there's no bigg or small citizen. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't have the right to judge anybody. I think
Speaker 1: we just.
Speaker 3: As you know, we'll be right back.
Speaker 5: A lot of those common and grifters end up being
Speaker 5: religious leaders and then they just become common and grifters
Speaker 5: at a larger scale, right. I'm just I'm thinking about
Speaker 5: the kind of really extractive evangelical churches that are popping
Speaker 5: up all over South Africa, where people who have very
Speaker 5: very very little are giving most of what they have
Speaker 5: to a preacher.
Speaker 3: I would love to dive into that, because we've also
Speaker 3: found our way to attend one of the church that
Speaker 3: one of the police officers who's under investigation right now
Speaker 3: is pastoring.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 3: Basically we found out while we were there that Diyogart
Speaker 3: had opened up some kind of a small congregation of
Speaker 3: his own. I know, this is absolutely insane, right after
Speaker 3: hearing everything we just did. So on the day that
Speaker 3: I was set to go into the prison to see
Speaker 3: Merinda Stein, Jennifer was very interested in obviously joining me,
Speaker 3: but the only time of this church service was the
Speaker 3: day I was set to go in to the prison.
Speaker 3: So I kind of, you know, looked at Jennifer and said, hey,
Speaker 3: I know you're going to be on your own here
Speaker 3: pretty much, but I think this is really important, don't
Speaker 3: you think? And she totally agreed. So, Jennifer, you want
Speaker 3: to tell me about that day?
Speaker 6: Yeah. So I really was curious about Diagar and wanted
Speaker 6: to ask him some questions. We really wanted to get
Speaker 6: the perspective of the detectives that we hadn't spoken to.
Speaker 6: We hopped in a car with one of our colleagues
Speaker 6: from South Africa and drove two hours outside of Johannesburg
Speaker 6: and pulled up and unfortunately I was left my own
Speaker 6: devices to go and by myself, and we were running
Speaker 6: a little bit late. So unfortunately the church had started
Speaker 6: and approached the you know, it was like a small house,
Speaker 6: similar to like a house in the valley in Los Angeles.
Speaker 6: It was a little paranoid about going in. What I
Speaker 6: was I going to say, hadn't really prepared the questions
Speaker 6: or you know, what the approach was. Because I knew
Speaker 6: that he was a pastor of this church, and so
Speaker 6: it was a delicate process to try to be able
Speaker 6: to speak to him. And walked up to the ornately
Speaker 6: carved wooden doors and pushed lightly on them, and it
Speaker 6: was locked, and so I thought I had an out,
Speaker 6: and then I turned around to leave, and then a
Speaker 6: person unlocked the door and opened the door and welcomed
Speaker 6: me in. And as soon as I stepped into the church,
Speaker 6: the room went silent, and I was staring directly at Diager,
Speaker 6: who was at the pulpit. He was maybe around five
Speaker 6: eight five ' nine, late fifties, short hair like piercing
Speaker 6: blue eyes, with a big presence. He kind of teeters
Speaker 6: between like lovable grandpa and tony soprano. And he's slowly
Speaker 6: walked down through about thirty chairs of people and embraced
Speaker 6: me in a hug and had me sit down on
Speaker 6: the back row near a fireplace. The guy that was
Speaker 6: standing guard at the door locked the door, and I
Speaker 6: immediately scanned the room looking for windows, doors, some type
Speaker 6: of exit, and there were bars on the windows. There
Speaker 6: was one back door, but that was it, and then
Speaker 6: there was a fireplace and that was it. So I
Speaker 6: was kind of stuck in this room and I tried
Speaker 6: to blend in to the best of my ability, but
Speaker 6: the whole church service was an Afrikaan. So as soon
Speaker 6: as the singing started, they there were several individuals in
Speaker 6: the congregation that stood up and they started waving red flags. Wow,
Speaker 6: like you don't need anything more clear than a huge
Speaker 6: red flag waving in your face to get the hell out.
Speaker 2: Of the universe was like, go nack it out. The
Speaker 2: fact that you were locked in where you're like, I
Speaker 2: feel like I would have been like shaking, Like my
Speaker 2: hands would have been shaking.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean the thing is once the door locked, knowing
Speaker 6: doom right now, Yeah, knowing the door locked, knowing knowing
Speaker 6: what I knew about Deoger, I think was the scariest
Speaker 6: thing because here you have this guy who's at the pulpit,
Speaker 6: you know, giving a sermon for families, for there were
Speaker 6: children in there, you know, like it was a family church,
Speaker 6: and he presented himself as this family man you know,
Speaker 6: that was helping the congregation. And that's one side of him,
Speaker 6: and you know, we knew another side of him.
Speaker 3: But so it was all different kinds of people.
Speaker 2: Family, yeah, family.
Speaker 6: Young people yes. And then at one point, so they
Speaker 6: were singing hymns, and he asked a couple of people
Speaker 6: to come to the front and and then a person
Speaker 6: started speaking in tongues, started convulsing and then collapsed onto
Speaker 6: the floor, and Dioger and some congregation members came and
Speaker 6: helped her up. As this was all going on, our colleague,
Speaker 6: who was out in the car outside texted me saying, look,
Speaker 6: you need to tread carefully because this is a private church,
Speaker 6: this is a private home. He is still a detective,
Speaker 6: still in the force, and if he feels like you're
Speaker 6: being aggressive with him or you know, too confrontational, he
Speaker 6: could arrest you. You know, you're trespassing on his property.
Speaker 6: So the service wrapped up and Diager again walked down
Speaker 6: the aisle towards me and in English, you know, asked
Speaker 6: me if I wanted to come join the congregation in
Speaker 6: the back room for coffee and tea afterwards. And so
Speaker 6: followed them all in there and let into a really
Speaker 6: small back room. It was tiled floor, there were windows,
Speaker 6: and the congregation all surrounded me and they handed me coffee.
Speaker 3: Were you said at ease a little bit now that
Speaker 3: you had witnesses?
Speaker 6: So you yeah, there were I think I was a
Speaker 6: little bit more at ease, but at the same time,
Speaker 6: my anxiety was, you know, peeking, because I didn't know
Speaker 6: what I was going to do, because I thought, oh,
Speaker 6: I was going to approach him ask him some questions
Speaker 6: about the case, and then realizing that that's probably not
Speaker 6: the best idea, and the congregation surrounding me and then
Speaker 6: his wife. His wife comes up to me and was
Speaker 6: really close, you know. They the congregation was very curious
Speaker 6: about who I was and how I came to be there,
Speaker 6: because this was two hours outside of a main city,
Speaker 6: and I told them that I told him that I
Speaker 6: had found the church through Facebook, which is true. And
Speaker 6: then I also had our South African colleague texting me, going,
Speaker 6: do not do anything stupid, like I can only bail
Speaker 6: you out so far. You know, you don't end up
Speaker 6: the same prison as Celia and Mirinda and the rest
Speaker 6: of electisprudeus, which I don't know if that's actually possible.
Speaker 6: But so it got awkward because as everyone was surrounding
Speaker 6: me asking questions and I didn't, I was kind of
Speaker 6: backing up against the corner, you know, not really sure
Speaker 6: what to say to get out of there, because I
Speaker 6: wasn't going to take this opportunity to confront him with
Speaker 6: his wife and his congregation. There's kids, you know, It's
Speaker 6: like this was not the time and the place, and
Speaker 6: so I just sort of cut out and said it
Speaker 6: was so nice to be here, and shook everyone's hand,
Speaker 6: and then quickly ran out to the street in search
Speaker 6: of our colleagues car, and they were not anywhere to
Speaker 6: be seen, and so I ran down the block as
Speaker 6: fast as I could try to find their car and
Speaker 6: found it, hopped in and we sped away as fast
Speaker 6: as we could. But the scary thing was on the
Speaker 6: drive back, another one of the colleagues that we had
Speaker 6: met with in South Africa while we are there, texted
Speaker 6: me and said, oh, Diagar mentioned that you visited him
Speaker 6: at church today and I hadn't, you know, I hadn't
Speaker 6: told them anything or you know, any name, or you know,
Speaker 6: maybe because I was from the States, like that was
Speaker 6: their connection. But and that was really scary that he
Speaker 6: knew who I was the whole time.
Speaker 2: So in seguence of events, so Cecilia gets convicted in
Speaker 2: August of twenty nineteen. Then, I mean, obviously Dreams was
Speaker 2: implicated in some of the testimony, right, because he was
Speaker 2: living there, so he had to be aware of some
Speaker 2: of it. Is it safe to say that Ben Boyson
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, this is not over and in order
Speaker 2: to like actually end this, like there's a larger problem here,
Speaker 2: which is there's corruption and organized crime happen in the
Speaker 2: police force, which Dion Venvick talks about a lot.
Speaker 4: As a young prosecutor in nineteen ninety three, you would
Speaker 4: have blind me out of the wood if you told
Speaker 4: me then this is what South Africa would become. So
Speaker 4: there is an element of how shall I explain cancer
Speaker 4: in our model fiber on On ground level.
Speaker 6: It's safe to say that Ben wanted to get these
Speaker 6: guys behind bars.
Speaker 3: Ultimately, what we know of is the Yager was removed
Speaker 3: from the police service without a pension.
Speaker 6: This was November twenty twenty two, right, and you all
Speaker 6: were there in August of twenty twenty two. So November
Speaker 6: twenty twenty two, Diyager was removed from the force I think,
Speaker 6: a month before his pension was supposed to kick in. Yes,
Speaker 6: and there's currently an open investigation that could put him
Speaker 6: by bars.
Speaker 2: I'm curious what you think Diager's motivations might have been
Speaker 2: because you know, we obviously know from what we just
Speaker 2: heard from you Jonnifer, that he is like a god
Speaker 2: fearing individual. And I wonder, you know, do we know
Speaker 2: anything about how Cecilia may have manipulated him, Like was
Speaker 2: he just terrified of her because he also believed the
Speaker 2: satanic stuff? Do you think she was like paying him
Speaker 2: off maybe to keep them safe, Like maybe that's where
Speaker 2: Zach Valentine and John Barnard's money was all going, do
Speaker 2: you know, ensure their all of their safety.
Speaker 3: I don't know, but my gut tells me that this
Speaker 3: is money from learning everything we did when we were
Speaker 3: there and the investigation and how underpaid and overworked the
Speaker 3: police force is. I think this is just something where
Speaker 3: you know, he was able to make a little bit
Speaker 3: extra money. He had known and had a prior relationship
Speaker 3: with Cecilia, so there was kind of a give and
Speaker 3: take of you know, financial things and also gifts. I
Speaker 3: think Ben mentioned that in the series, and that kind
Speaker 3: of thing was going on because at the end of
Speaker 3: the day, I think there was just too much to risk,
Speaker 3: possibly for Diager if there wasn't money involved.
Speaker 5: The problem is the global system of capitalism that if
Speaker 5: a woman was in charge, she would also be stuck
Speaker 5: with And I think that's also why this particular case
Speaker 5: caught people's attention so dramatically, because we are all so
Speaker 5: horrified by the idea that women could do this, particularly
Speaker 5: by the idea that a mother, a mother would sully
Speaker 5: her daughter in this way. It's absolutely horrifying and you know,
Speaker 5: fascinatingly sensational at the same time. So I think that's
Speaker 5: drawn a lot of attention to this case.
Speaker 3: Colonel Henny Diyager has been released from his duties as
Speaker 3: an officer of the law and his pension revoked. Cecilia
Speaker 3: Stein's husband, Drees, is still working as a cop for
Speaker 3: the South African Police Service. Captain Johann van Vick came
Speaker 3: back to the force after resigning for a bit after
Speaker 3: Michaela's murder. He too, still works for the SAPs. I
Speaker 3: want to add one more thing before we wrap things up.
Speaker 3: Something I thought was interesting while we were in South Africa.
Speaker 3: I was asked by Luke, our main witness, to talk
Speaker 3: to detective Sussette Canotse and Ben Boysen to try to
Speaker 3: arrange a visit. Luke wanted to go to the prison
Speaker 3: where LaRue is incarcerated to get some information and closure
Speaker 3: on a few things and potentially helped Ben in the
Speaker 3: case against the corrupt cops. So I reached out to
Speaker 3: Suzette and told her about the situation. She'd helped Luke
Speaker 3: in the past and agreed to make the trip to
Speaker 3: be by a side. Susette flew up from Cape down
Speaker 3: to Johannesburg and met up with Luke to visit LaRue
Speaker 3: at Sun City Prison. During their visit, Susette told LaRue quote,
Speaker 3: I wish you had come forward to me then and
Speaker 3: told me your story. You were never implicated or involved
Speaker 3: in the first four murders, so if you told me
Speaker 3: the truth back in twenty twelve instead of when you
Speaker 3: were caught in twenty sixteen, you would have never gone
Speaker 3: to prison at all. Susette told us that there was
Speaker 3: an unforgettable look on his face she washed as the
Speaker 3: weight of her words sunk into his soul, and he
Speaker 3: felt the raw truth of them, grieving the lost promise
Speaker 3: of yet another life he'd callously extinguished his own. But
Speaker 3: Luke there in prison with LaRue, he felt it what
Speaker 3: he'd come to find a sense of closure. LaRue Stein
Speaker 3: is set to be least from prison in twenty thirty nine.
Speaker 3: There's also a small chance, according to the state advocates
Speaker 3: we spoke with, that Cecilia Stein could be up for
Speaker 3: parole in twenty forty four.
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, telling you aside of
Speaker 1: what happened it is it is very much liberating in
Speaker 1: a way.
Speaker 3: As we conclude this series, we extend our heartfelt gratitude
Speaker 3: to all who have supported this podcast and everyone in
Speaker 3: South Africa who welcomed us into your beautiful country. Thank
Speaker 3: you again for joining us on this journey through the
Speaker 3: darker chambers of the human heart. Together we peered into
Speaker 3: the nearly unknowable minds of murderers and also ventured to
Speaker 3: grapple with the losses and the victims they left in
Speaker 3: their wake, and in doing so, we hope that we
Speaker 3: also illuminated those aspects of the human psyche that defy
Speaker 3: easy understanding. Cecilia Stein confessed she believes we are all
Speaker 3: sinners and that only God can judge us. I have
Speaker 3: to agree with her, but make no mistake, we can
Speaker 3: still recognize evil when we see it. Trust yourself and
Speaker 3: always listen to those whispers of truth inside you. Queen
Speaker 3: Havoc in Her Murder Cult is a production of Schooly
Speaker 3: Humans and iHeart Podcasts. Queen Havoc is hosted and created
Speaker 3: by me Kurt Kupacheck, produced and written by Jennifer Takini,
Speaker 3: Julia Chriscau and Kurt Kupachick. Lead producer is Julia Christgau.
Speaker 3: Story editor is Saren Burnett. Senior producer is Amelia Brock.
Speaker 3: Production manager is Daisy Church. Original music composed by Claire Campbell, editing,
Speaker 3: sound design and scoring by Jesse Niswanger. Associate producers are
Speaker 3: DaShan Moodley and Jamaine Kriher. Additional producing by Ben Melman,
Speaker 3: fact checking by Dennis Webster. Recording engineers are Graham Gibson,
Speaker 3: Clay Hillenberg and Josh Hook. Brind Stein was read by
Speaker 3: Angelique Pretorius. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley,
Speaker 3: Brandon Barr, Jennifer Keny and Kurt Kupachak. We want to
Speaker 3: thank all of those who so generously welcomed us in
Speaker 3: South Africa and shared their stories. We're incredibly grateful to
Speaker 3: you all. We also want to acknowledge how traumatic these
Speaker 3: events are for the victims and their families. Please respect
Speaker 3: their privacy. If you or someone you know has been
Speaker 3: affected by cult behaviors, there are resources available, including Voices
Speaker 3: for Dignity, at Christine Murray dot com