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Speaker 1: School of Humans.

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Speaker 2: This show follows the investigation of serial murders and contains

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Speaker 2: material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion advised.

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Speaker 3: Welcome everybody. Kurt Kubachek here, Thank you so much for

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Speaker 3: tuning in to our bonus episode. I wanted to bring

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Speaker 3: you all back because there was a lot of things

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Speaker 3: we wanted to share with you all, including more in

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Speaker 3: depth interviews with Cecilia Stein. We'll also hear great insight

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Speaker 3: from Nicky Falkoff and more from Merinduz Stein. So I've

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Speaker 3: got Jennifer Tacchini, my co producer, here with me.

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Speaker 4: Hi.

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Speaker 2: It's great to be back, and.

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Speaker 3: Also I'm really excited to introduce another important team member,

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Speaker 3: our lead producer, Julia chriscau.

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Speaker 5: Hey, good to be here.

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Speaker 3: We're going to tie up some loose ends of the case,

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Speaker 3: including what we currently know about the open investigation into

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Speaker 3: Colonel Diyager, Captain Johann van Vick, and Cecilia's husband, Officer

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Speaker 3: Jari Stein. We'll also take you through everything, including some

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Speaker 3: of our wild adventures on the ground in South Africa.

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Speaker 3: If you've gotten this far, we appreciate you coming to

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Speaker 3: the bonus episode of Queen havoc Here's doctor Niki Falcoff.

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Speaker 5: These countries with these kind of really big, opaque governments

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Speaker 5: and these really really complex, angry, difficult histories of violence,

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Speaker 5: and these societies that are very diverse, where lots of

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Speaker 5: people feel left out, you know, in a way that

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Speaker 5: you wouldn't necessarily get in Western Europe. Is there something

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Speaker 5: about those kinds of societies that makes people more susceptible

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Speaker 5: to the sort of charisma that you know, a Manson

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Speaker 5: or a Cecilia Stein has quite possibly?

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Speaker 3: Well I met Cecilia Stein this week. Oh my god? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: how is that? Most people could fall prey to her? Okay,

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Speaker 3: instantly when we met it began her control. Yeah, she

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Speaker 3: was on it the moment it started.

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Speaker 5: So she there's some kind of manipulative skill that this

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Speaker 5: person has that is beyond the understanding of most of us.

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Speaker 3: And if you're not, i mean really hyper self aware,

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Speaker 3: you wouldn't see it.

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Speaker 5: Wow, imagine if she used her powers for good?

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Speaker 2: So what was that like being in her presence then?

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Speaker 2: So I know we talked a little bit about it

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Speaker 2: in the episodes, but like, did you feel that she

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Speaker 2: was like working that charm on you all when you

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Speaker 2: were meeting her in the prison.

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Speaker 6: I think so. I mean immediately when we walked in

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Speaker 6: the room, we were introduced to a lot of the

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Speaker 6: staff and a lot of the people that were there.

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Speaker 6: And it really felt like we had to remind ourselves

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Speaker 6: where we were because it felt like just a casual

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Speaker 6: conversation with friends and you know, just catching up, you know,

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Speaker 6: over coffee.

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Speaker 3: As a reminder, Sun City is one of the most

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Speaker 3: dangerous prisons in South Africa. She instantly welcomed us. She

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Speaker 3: just went in for hugs. It wasn't like we had

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Speaker 3: a choice. But she was lovely and friendly and I

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Speaker 3: mean she made everybody in the whole area know that

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Speaker 3: we were there to see her. And I mean she's

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Speaker 3: laughing and giggling. She doesn't take anything really that seriously

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Speaker 3: with us. She tried to keep everything really really light.

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Speaker 3: I mean, she brought us into you know, where you forgot.

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Speaker 3: It's strange when you obviously are like, how could you

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Speaker 3: do this to people? And how could you, you know,

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Speaker 3: do this manipulate people, abuse religion, you know, cause people

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Speaker 3: to take lives, and then you're actually with these people

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Speaker 3: and they're kind to you and they're respectful to you,

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Speaker 3: and you obviously have your especially with Cecilia going Okay,

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Speaker 3: she's she's playing chess too, so and I think that

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Speaker 3: was the biggest thing me and Jennifer, you know, was like,

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Speaker 3: always remember she's she can't shut that off. She she's

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Speaker 3: always going to be Cecilia. She's always going to be

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Speaker 3: playing chess. So don't get too comfortable. Yep, don't get

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Speaker 3: too comfortable. So but I mean, Mirinda, as you heard

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Speaker 3: in the series, you know, I was pretty rocked after

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Speaker 3: meeting her. But what was I think so overwhelming for

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Speaker 3: me is that she was really really nice to me,

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Speaker 3: and to know that just in a quickness that she

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Speaker 3: could go and turn into whether it's because of her manipulated,

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Speaker 3: brainwashed you know, kind of psyche about Cecilia, or she's

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Speaker 3: just capable of that and has that deep thing right.

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Speaker 3: But the scariest part is I saw the high school teacher. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I literally experienced the high school teacher when I sat

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Speaker 3: with her, which was the daytime. Yeah, the daytime, Mirinda.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and it seems like everyone had kind

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Speaker 2: of a split personality. I mean Luke talks about that

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Speaker 2: as well. Oh yeah, you know, having feeling like he's

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Speaker 2: one person during the day and then at night he's himself.

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Speaker 2: And it's so horrible to have to put on this

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Speaker 2: mask all the time. But I feel like for Cecilia

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Speaker 2: and eventually Marinda, probably it didn't feel like a mask anymore, right,

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Speaker 2: It just became who they were.

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Speaker 7: I see myself as I see myself as a vigilante.

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Speaker 7: And then I thought, okay, Marenda, so I fetched my

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Speaker 7: old broken dictionary and it says that a person who

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Speaker 7: takes care.

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Speaker 5: Of a criminal act.

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Speaker 7: So you might not agree with the vigilante.

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Speaker 5: See, the people.

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Speaker 7: That we killed were bad, but they were.

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Speaker 3: Potatoes. Okay.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the most interesting quotes from Cecilia

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Speaker 2: that you all got was that Cecilia means blindness.

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Speaker 1: Even in court, you listen to people testify and it's

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Speaker 1: the opinion of something that happened. Just example, in court,

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor was explaining to me what might tattoos mean,

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Speaker 1: and I have an eye tattooed on my shoulder and

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Speaker 1: he was saying that it's the eye of run. I'm

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Speaker 1: going no, my name is Cecilia. It means blindness.

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Speaker 2: She is using her charm to real people in but

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Speaker 2: she's completely blind to their experience. To like anyone else's

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Speaker 2: experience besides her own, which is like the narcissist psychopath

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Speaker 2: thing that's happening.

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Speaker 3: At one point I asked Cecilia how it felt to

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Speaker 3: be labeled the female Charles Manson, and this was a response.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is the first time I'm hearing someone saying

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Speaker 1: that I'm the female version of Charles Manson. I don't

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Speaker 1: know a lot about him, but will definitely go check

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Speaker 1: up on that. I was always over to present myself.

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Speaker 1: It's something that inchiegued me. I do believe he was female.

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Speaker 1: Just for the record, it's not a sexisting Females are

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Speaker 1: so much better at everything else. What's this saying? Give

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Speaker 1: what the devil isn't able to do? You'll send a woman.

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Speaker 3: I believe that she saw this avenue into these people

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Speaker 3: of Let me give you purpose correct, Let me give

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Speaker 3: you I need to be taken care of, I need

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Speaker 3: your money, I need a ride, I need your help.

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Speaker 3: Let me give you something to be purposeful about. And

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Speaker 3: that's what I think is slightly unique about this. You know,

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Speaker 3: this serial mastermind, whatever all the different names they give her,

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Speaker 3: it's just a unique brand into finding people that specifically

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Speaker 3: have this need to nurture.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: No, that's actually a very very very good point that

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Speaker 5: I hadn't thought of. I'm thinking about cut leaders that

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Speaker 5: I know a little bit about, people like the Jonestown

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Speaker 5: crime and other kind of massive cut leaders. What they

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Speaker 5: tend to do is they do provide people with the

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Speaker 5: sense of purpose, but in the sense that they go,

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Speaker 5: you must follow me, and then you two will be

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Speaker 5: strong like me. Their charisma is about strength and power,

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Speaker 5: whereas what she did was almost about weakness. She was

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Speaker 5: constantly showing how vulnerable she is. I wonder if that's

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Speaker 5: something to do with being a female cult leader rather

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Speaker 5: than a male cult leader. That you cannot take this huge,

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Speaker 5: vast patriarchal position where you go I am God, I

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Speaker 5: am Jesus, everyone must follow me. Instead you go, I

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Speaker 5: am I am the thing that needs to be saved

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Speaker 5: from the greatest evil around, and you must all collectively

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Speaker 5: save me, and in doing so you save yourselves.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and you're doing something good and you're doing something righteous.

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Speaker 3: Cecilia used pity as a manipulation tactic wherever she could.

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Speaker 3: She never failed to mention her sicknes even with us.

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Speaker 1: I think, at the end of the day, it was

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Speaker 1: just a group of people really taking care of each other.

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Speaker 1: I was the one that was sick the whole time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my lungs and messed up, Yes, all of those things.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't just taking care of me because I

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Speaker 1: was sick. We were friends. We cooked together, we ate

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Speaker 1: together every day, we visited together every day. I think

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Speaker 1: it was more just being there. I know in the

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Speaker 1: court case they pulled that out of proportion, but it

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Speaker 1: was really just a group of people taking care of

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Speaker 1: each other. So, yeah, what they're saying, Korn, what happens

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Speaker 1: in real life is too completely completely different things.

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Speaker 3: Cecilia is chock full of contradiction herself, constantly creating a

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Speaker 3: facade to hide behind. Detective Ben Boysen told us that

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Speaker 3: he believes Cecilia and EPD to be connected to at

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Speaker 3: least four more murders, ones that he couldn't prove.

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Speaker 8: I linked them actually with were fifteen murders, but I

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Speaker 8: could only prove leven, so I only took that eleven

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Speaker 8: cases to court at the end of the day.

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Speaker 3: Ben also did some digging into Cecilia's background before the

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Speaker 3: days of Ria grunivald An.

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Speaker 8: EPD even began going back Cecilia's husband had a girlfriend

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Speaker 8: in two thousand and five, and eventually she was also

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Speaker 8: killed in a brutal way. But in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 8: Zach Valentine and Marenda and those people was not part

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Speaker 8: of her So I don't know if Cecilia did that

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Speaker 8: killing by herself or was there at that stage other

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Speaker 8: people in her life that she was convincing to kill people.

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Speaker 2: Ye, it's like Suside said she could open a university

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Speaker 2: to teach people manipulation.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean she had them believe that. You know,

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Speaker 6: she gave everybody a teddy bear, and they believed that

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Speaker 6: she embodied the teddy bear and that she could watch

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Speaker 6: them through the teddy bear and all their actions. And

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Speaker 6: so Marcelle and the room believe that they're being watched

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Speaker 6: at all times.

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Speaker 1: Let go of that.

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Speaker 3: She never admitted anything to us with regard to the

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Speaker 3: crimes and told us her versions of everything. We knew

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Speaker 3: that there was a dark side or a shadow version

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Speaker 3: of herself that she didn't show us, which was capable

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Speaker 3: of saying and doing whatever it took to get what

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Speaker 3: she wanted.

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Speaker 1: I was believed there's no biggo small sense citizen, whether

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Speaker 1: you lie or kill or steal. Some people steal chocolates,

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Speaker 1: some people steal people's lives. Yeah, waither it's it's shoplifting

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Speaker 1: or murder or there's no bigg or small citizen. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't have the right to judge anybody. I think

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Speaker 1: we just.

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Speaker 3: As you know, we'll be right back.

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Speaker 5: A lot of those common and grifters end up being

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Speaker 5: religious leaders and then they just become common and grifters

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Speaker 5: at a larger scale, right. I'm just I'm thinking about

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Speaker 5: the kind of really extractive evangelical churches that are popping

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Speaker 5: up all over South Africa, where people who have very

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Speaker 5: very very little are giving most of what they have

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Speaker 5: to a preacher.

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Speaker 3: I would love to dive into that, because we've also

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Speaker 3: found our way to attend one of the church that

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Speaker 3: one of the police officers who's under investigation right now

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Speaker 3: is pastoring.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: Basically we found out while we were there that Diyogart

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Speaker 3: had opened up some kind of a small congregation of

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Speaker 3: his own. I know, this is absolutely insane, right after

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Speaker 3: hearing everything we just did. So on the day that

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Speaker 3: I was set to go into the prison to see

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Speaker 3: Merinda Stein, Jennifer was very interested in obviously joining me,

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Speaker 3: but the only time of this church service was the

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Speaker 3: day I was set to go in to the prison.

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Speaker 3: So I kind of, you know, looked at Jennifer and said, hey,

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Speaker 3: I know you're going to be on your own here

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Speaker 3: pretty much, but I think this is really important, don't

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Speaker 3: you think? And she totally agreed. So, Jennifer, you want

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Speaker 3: to tell me about that day?

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Speaker 6: Yeah. So I really was curious about Diagar and wanted

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Speaker 6: to ask him some questions. We really wanted to get

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Speaker 6: the perspective of the detectives that we hadn't spoken to.

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Speaker 6: We hopped in a car with one of our colleagues

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Speaker 6: from South Africa and drove two hours outside of Johannesburg

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Speaker 6: and pulled up and unfortunately I was left my own

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Speaker 6: devices to go and by myself, and we were running

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Speaker 6: a little bit late. So unfortunately the church had started

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Speaker 6: and approached the you know, it was like a small house,

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Speaker 6: similar to like a house in the valley in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 6: It was a little paranoid about going in. What I

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Speaker 6: was I going to say, hadn't really prepared the questions

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Speaker 6: or you know, what the approach was. Because I knew

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Speaker 6: that he was a pastor of this church, and so

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Speaker 6: it was a delicate process to try to be able

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Speaker 6: to speak to him. And walked up to the ornately

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Speaker 6: carved wooden doors and pushed lightly on them, and it

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Speaker 6: was locked, and so I thought I had an out,

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Speaker 6: and then I turned around to leave, and then a

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Speaker 6: person unlocked the door and opened the door and welcomed

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Speaker 6: me in. And as soon as I stepped into the church,

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Speaker 6: the room went silent, and I was staring directly at Diager,

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Speaker 6: who was at the pulpit. He was maybe around five

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Speaker 6: eight five ' nine, late fifties, short hair like piercing

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Speaker 6: blue eyes, with a big presence. He kind of teeters

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Speaker 6: between like lovable grandpa and tony soprano. And he's slowly

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Speaker 6: walked down through about thirty chairs of people and embraced

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Speaker 6: me in a hug and had me sit down on

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Speaker 6: the back row near a fireplace. The guy that was

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Speaker 6: standing guard at the door locked the door, and I

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Speaker 6: immediately scanned the room looking for windows, doors, some type

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Speaker 6: of exit, and there were bars on the windows. There

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Speaker 6: was one back door, but that was it, and then

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Speaker 6: there was a fireplace and that was it. So I

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Speaker 6: was kind of stuck in this room and I tried

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Speaker 6: to blend in to the best of my ability, but

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Speaker 6: the whole church service was an Afrikaan. So as soon

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Speaker 6: as the singing started, they there were several individuals in

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Speaker 6: the congregation that stood up and they started waving red flags. Wow,

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Speaker 6: like you don't need anything more clear than a huge

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Speaker 6: red flag waving in your face to get the hell out.

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Speaker 2: Of the universe was like, go nack it out. The

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Speaker 2: fact that you were locked in where you're like, I

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Speaker 2: feel like I would have been like shaking, Like my

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Speaker 2: hands would have been shaking.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 6: I mean the thing is once the door locked, knowing

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Speaker 6: doom right now, Yeah, knowing the door locked, knowing knowing

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Speaker 6: what I knew about Deoger, I think was the scariest

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Speaker 6: thing because here you have this guy who's at the pulpit,

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Speaker 6: you know, giving a sermon for families, for there were

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Speaker 6: children in there, you know, like it was a family church,

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Speaker 6: and he presented himself as this family man you know,

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Speaker 6: that was helping the congregation. And that's one side of him,

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Speaker 6: and you know, we knew another side of him.

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Speaker 3: But so it was all different kinds of people.

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Speaker 2: Family, yeah, family.

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Speaker 6: Young people yes. And then at one point, so they

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Speaker 6: were singing hymns, and he asked a couple of people

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Speaker 6: to come to the front and and then a person

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Speaker 6: started speaking in tongues, started convulsing and then collapsed onto

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Speaker 6: the floor, and Dioger and some congregation members came and

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Speaker 6: helped her up. As this was all going on, our colleague,

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Speaker 6: who was out in the car outside texted me saying, look,

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Speaker 6: you need to tread carefully because this is a private church,

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Speaker 6: this is a private home. He is still a detective,

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Speaker 6: still in the force, and if he feels like you're

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Speaker 6: being aggressive with him or you know, too confrontational, he

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Speaker 6: could arrest you. You know, you're trespassing on his property.

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Speaker 6: So the service wrapped up and Diager again walked down

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Speaker 6: the aisle towards me and in English, you know, asked

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Speaker 6: me if I wanted to come join the congregation in

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Speaker 6: the back room for coffee and tea afterwards. And so

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Speaker 6: followed them all in there and let into a really

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Speaker 6: small back room. It was tiled floor, there were windows,

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Speaker 6: and the congregation all surrounded me and they handed me coffee.

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Speaker 3: Were you said at ease a little bit now that

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Speaker 3: you had witnesses?

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Speaker 6: So you yeah, there were I think I was a

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Speaker 6: little bit more at ease, but at the same time,

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Speaker 6: my anxiety was, you know, peeking, because I didn't know

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Speaker 6: what I was going to do, because I thought, oh,

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Speaker 6: I was going to approach him ask him some questions

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Speaker 6: about the case, and then realizing that that's probably not

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Speaker 6: the best idea, and the congregation surrounding me and then

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Speaker 6: his wife. His wife comes up to me and was

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Speaker 6: really close, you know. They the congregation was very curious

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Speaker 6: about who I was and how I came to be there,

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Speaker 6: because this was two hours outside of a main city,

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Speaker 6: and I told them that I told him that I

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Speaker 6: had found the church through Facebook, which is true. And

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Speaker 6: then I also had our South African colleague texting me, going,

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Speaker 6: do not do anything stupid, like I can only bail

320
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Speaker 6: you out so far. You know, you don't end up

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Speaker 6: the same prison as Celia and Mirinda and the rest

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Speaker 6: of electisprudeus, which I don't know if that's actually possible.

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Speaker 6: But so it got awkward because as everyone was surrounding

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Speaker 6: me asking questions and I didn't, I was kind of

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Speaker 6: backing up against the corner, you know, not really sure

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Speaker 6: what to say to get out of there, because I

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Speaker 6: wasn't going to take this opportunity to confront him with

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Speaker 6: his wife and his congregation. There's kids, you know, It's

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Speaker 6: like this was not the time and the place, and

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Speaker 6: so I just sort of cut out and said it

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Speaker 6: was so nice to be here, and shook everyone's hand,

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Speaker 6: and then quickly ran out to the street in search

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Speaker 6: of our colleagues car, and they were not anywhere to

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Speaker 6: be seen, and so I ran down the block as

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Speaker 6: fast as I could try to find their car and

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Speaker 6: found it, hopped in and we sped away as fast

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Speaker 6: as we could. But the scary thing was on the

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Speaker 6: drive back, another one of the colleagues that we had

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Speaker 6: met with in South Africa while we are there, texted

340
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Speaker 6: me and said, oh, Diagar mentioned that you visited him

341
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Speaker 6: at church today and I hadn't, you know, I hadn't

342
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Speaker 6: told them anything or you know, any name, or you know,

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Speaker 6: maybe because I was from the States, like that was

344
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Speaker 6: their connection. But and that was really scary that he

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Speaker 6: knew who I was the whole time.

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Speaker 2: So in seguence of events, so Cecilia gets convicted in

347
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Speaker 2: August of twenty nineteen. Then, I mean, obviously Dreams was

348
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Speaker 2: implicated in some of the testimony, right, because he was

349
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Speaker 2: living there, so he had to be aware of some

350
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Speaker 2: of it. Is it safe to say that Ben Boyson

351
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Speaker 2: was like, Okay, this is not over and in order

352
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Speaker 2: to like actually end this, like there's a larger problem here,

353
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Speaker 2: which is there's corruption and organized crime happen in the

354
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Speaker 2: police force, which Dion Venvick talks about a lot.

355
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Speaker 4: As a young prosecutor in nineteen ninety three, you would

356
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Speaker 4: have blind me out of the wood if you told

357
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Speaker 4: me then this is what South Africa would become. So

358
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Speaker 4: there is an element of how shall I explain cancer

359
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Speaker 4: in our model fiber on On ground level.

360
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Speaker 6: It's safe to say that Ben wanted to get these

361
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Speaker 6: guys behind bars.

362
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Speaker 3: Ultimately, what we know of is the Yager was removed

363
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Speaker 3: from the police service without a pension.

364
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Speaker 6: This was November twenty twenty two, right, and you all

365
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Speaker 6: were there in August of twenty twenty two. So November

366
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Speaker 6: twenty twenty two, Diyager was removed from the force I think,

367
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Speaker 6: a month before his pension was supposed to kick in. Yes,

368
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Speaker 6: and there's currently an open investigation that could put him

369
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Speaker 6: by bars.

370
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 2: I'm curious what you think Diager's motivations might have been

371
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 2: because you know, we obviously know from what we just

372
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Speaker 2: heard from you Jonnifer, that he is like a god

373
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Speaker 2: fearing individual. And I wonder, you know, do we know

374
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Speaker 2: anything about how Cecilia may have manipulated him, Like was

375
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Speaker 2: he just terrified of her because he also believed the

376
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Speaker 2: satanic stuff? Do you think she was like paying him

377
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 2: off maybe to keep them safe, Like maybe that's where

378
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: Zach Valentine and John Barnard's money was all going, do

379
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 2: you know, ensure their all of their safety.

380
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Speaker 3: I don't know, but my gut tells me that this

381
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,360
Speaker 3: is money from learning everything we did when we were

382
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Speaker 3: there and the investigation and how underpaid and overworked the

383
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Speaker 3: police force is. I think this is just something where

384
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Speaker 3: you know, he was able to make a little bit

385
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Speaker 3: extra money. He had known and had a prior relationship

386
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Speaker 3: with Cecilia, so there was kind of a give and

387
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 3: take of you know, financial things and also gifts. I

388
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Speaker 3: think Ben mentioned that in the series, and that kind

389
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Speaker 3: of thing was going on because at the end of

390
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Speaker 3: the day, I think there was just too much to risk,

391
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Speaker 3: possibly for Diager if there wasn't money involved.

392
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Speaker 5: The problem is the global system of capitalism that if

393
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Speaker 5: a woman was in charge, she would also be stuck

394
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Speaker 5: with And I think that's also why this particular case

395
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 5: caught people's attention so dramatically, because we are all so

396
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Speaker 5: horrified by the idea that women could do this, particularly

397
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Speaker 5: by the idea that a mother, a mother would sully

398
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 5: her daughter in this way. It's absolutely horrifying and you know,

399
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 5: fascinatingly sensational at the same time. So I think that's

400
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 5: drawn a lot of attention to this case.

401
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 3: Colonel Henny Diyager has been released from his duties as

402
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: an officer of the law and his pension revoked. Cecilia

403
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: Stein's husband, Drees, is still working as a cop for

404
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 3: the South African Police Service. Captain Johann van Vick came

405
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 3: back to the force after resigning for a bit after

406
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 3: Michaela's murder. He too, still works for the SAPs. I

407
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 3: want to add one more thing before we wrap things up.

408
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 3: Something I thought was interesting while we were in South Africa.

409
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 3: I was asked by Luke, our main witness, to talk

410
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 3: to detective Sussette Canotse and Ben Boysen to try to

411
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 3: arrange a visit. Luke wanted to go to the prison

412
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 3: where LaRue is incarcerated to get some information and closure

413
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 3: on a few things and potentially helped Ben in the

414
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 3: case against the corrupt cops. So I reached out to

415
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 3: Suzette and told her about the situation. She'd helped Luke

416
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 3: in the past and agreed to make the trip to

417
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 3: be by a side. Susette flew up from Cape down

418
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 3: to Johannesburg and met up with Luke to visit LaRue

419
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 3: at Sun City Prison. During their visit, Susette told LaRue quote,

420
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 3: I wish you had come forward to me then and

421
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 3: told me your story. You were never implicated or involved

422
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 3: in the first four murders, so if you told me

423
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 3: the truth back in twenty twelve instead of when you

424
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 3: were caught in twenty sixteen, you would have never gone

425
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: to prison at all. Susette told us that there was

426
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 3: an unforgettable look on his face she washed as the

427
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: weight of her words sunk into his soul, and he

428
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: felt the raw truth of them, grieving the lost promise

429
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: of yet another life he'd callously extinguished his own. But

430
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 3: Luke there in prison with LaRue, he felt it what

431
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 3: he'd come to find a sense of closure. LaRue Stein

432
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 3: is set to be least from prison in twenty thirty nine.

433
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 3: There's also a small chance, according to the state advocates

434
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 3: we spoke with, that Cecilia Stein could be up for

435
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 3: parole in twenty forty four.

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Speaker 1: At the end of the day, telling you aside of

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Speaker 1: what happened it is it is very much liberating in

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Speaker 1: a way.

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Speaker 3: As we conclude this series, we extend our heartfelt gratitude

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Speaker 3: to all who have supported this podcast and everyone in

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Speaker 3: South Africa who welcomed us into your beautiful country. Thank

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Speaker 3: you again for joining us on this journey through the

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Speaker 3: darker chambers of the human heart. Together we peered into

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Speaker 3: the nearly unknowable minds of murderers and also ventured to

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Speaker 3: grapple with the losses and the victims they left in

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Speaker 3: their wake, and in doing so, we hope that we

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Speaker 3: also illuminated those aspects of the human psyche that defy

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00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 3: easy understanding. Cecilia Stein confessed she believes we are all

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Speaker 3: sinners and that only God can judge us. I have

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Speaker 3: to agree with her, but make no mistake, we can

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Speaker 3: still recognize evil when we see it. Trust yourself and

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Speaker 3: always listen to those whispers of truth inside you. Queen

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Speaker 3: Havoc in Her Murder Cult is a production of Schooly

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Speaker 3: Humans and iHeart Podcasts. Queen Havoc is hosted and created

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Speaker 3: by me Kurt Kupacheck, produced and written by Jennifer Takini,

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Speaker 3: Julia Chriscau and Kurt Kupachick. Lead producer is Julia Christgau.

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Speaker 3: Story editor is Saren Burnett. Senior producer is Amelia Brock.

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Speaker 3: Production manager is Daisy Church. Original music composed by Claire Campbell, editing,

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Speaker 3: sound design and scoring by Jesse Niswanger. Associate producers are

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Speaker 3: DaShan Moodley and Jamaine Kriher. Additional producing by Ben Melman,

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00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 3: fact checking by Dennis Webster. Recording engineers are Graham Gibson,

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Speaker 3: Clay Hillenberg and Josh Hook. Brind Stein was read by

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Speaker 3: Angelique Pretorius. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley,

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Speaker 3: Brandon Barr, Jennifer Keny and Kurt Kupachak. We want to

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Speaker 3: thank all of those who so generously welcomed us in

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Speaker 3: South Africa and shared their stories. We're incredibly grateful to

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Speaker 3: you all. We also want to acknowledge how traumatic these

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Speaker 3: events are for the victims and their families. Please respect

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Speaker 3: their privacy. If you or someone you know has been

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Speaker 3: affected by cult behaviors, there are resources available, including Voices

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Speaker 3: for Dignity, at Christine Murray dot com