Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question.
Speaker 1: Justin Baldoni is a producer, director, and actor who is
Speaker 1: probably best known for his long running character on Jane
Speaker 1: the Virgin. On the show's five seasons, Justin played Rafael Salano,
Speaker 1: the sensitive reform playboy who fell in love with the
Speaker 1: titular Jane a virgin. This is hard doing everything backwards,
Speaker 1: and we'll have a baby and then we're going on
Speaker 1: our first state. But the actor, whose roles literally embodied
Speaker 1: a certain type of shirtless machismo masculinity, is on a
Speaker 1: new mission to help change the way men and society
Speaker 1: think about masculinity. This idea started out as a Ted
Speaker 1: talk back in two thousand and seventeen called why I'm
Speaker 1: Done Being Man Enough? And I'm just a guy that
Speaker 1: woke up after thirty years and realized that I was
Speaker 1: living in a state of conflict, conflict with who I
Speaker 1: feel I am in my core and conflict with who
Speaker 1: the world tells me as a man I should be.
Speaker 1: Then it's spun out into a web series, so the
Speaker 1: show is called men Enough. What does that mean to you?
Speaker 1: Good question? Then be a Man? And now it's a
Speaker 1: book called man enough, undefining my masculinity. It's a very
Speaker 1: personal book that shares a lot of Justin Baldoni as
Speaker 1: he explores what it means to be a man. Justin
Speaker 1: Baldoni one of my favorite people. I'm so happy to
Speaker 1: talk to you. I love talking to you about so
Speaker 1: many different things, and we're here talking about your book.
Speaker 1: You've got a book out. How does it feel? First
Speaker 1: and foremost, because I'm scared to death for when mine
Speaker 1: comes out, because you feel so vulnerable. It's pretty terrible, Katie.
Speaker 1: It's awesome and terrible at the same time. I always say,
Speaker 1: as a filmmaker, every scenes to two things at once.
Speaker 1: There's like joy and pain, right and uh, And this
Speaker 1: is a lot of excitement, and it's also really terrifying
Speaker 1: because you're when you write, it's like there's nothing more
Speaker 1: vulnerable than that. You're writing your heart and your soul
Speaker 1: and you're putting it all out there for people to consume,
Speaker 1: and you hope that they haven't an experience, and you
Speaker 1: know that people would disagree. And it's not like making
Speaker 1: a movie or you know, making a show for you
Speaker 1: or you know, doing a broadcast. It's this is your life.
Speaker 1: This is you. So I'm I know I'm not making
Speaker 1: you feel any better, uh, but I'm so happy that
Speaker 1: you did it. Your life, your book is going to
Speaker 1: be incredible. Well, tell me what their response has been
Speaker 1: so far to your honesty and your openness, your vulnerability,
Speaker 1: admitting your mistakes and really putting it out there. Tell
Speaker 1: me what people have said to you about it. Why
Speaker 1: I'm for Ptty sensitive. So I really I don't go searching.
Speaker 1: I don't. I try not to read the comments. Um
Speaker 1: I look at UM. I have this belief that I
Speaker 1: don't want to believe the bad or the good. I
Speaker 1: don't want I don't want the court of public opinion
Speaker 1: to sway my own self worth. Well, that's pretty hard
Speaker 1: to do these days, isn't it. Justice, It's extremely hard
Speaker 1: to do. And so so what I think I think
Speaker 1: about it's it's kind of like a conservation. It's a
Speaker 1: protection of my energy whenever I can. It's like this
Speaker 1: bubble and I and I just try to avoid looking
Speaker 1: for it. You know. There's the response has been really beautiful,
Speaker 1: to be quite frank, I mean, I am I have
Speaker 1: this text community. I think you're a part of it
Speaker 1: as well, and that's really kind of where I um,
Speaker 1: I engage them most and UH and you know, when
Speaker 1: I wrote the book, I wrote it as a service,
Speaker 1: and it's always tricky because in our business, UH, service
Speaker 1: can be conflated with economic game. And so it's really
Speaker 1: been this balance of remembering my why, going back to
Speaker 1: what I actually write about in the book, the why ladder, remembering,
Speaker 1: remembering my purpose, what my intention was, and not thinking
Speaker 1: about how many books are sold and all the stuff
Speaker 1: that inevitably the publisher is going to just pound into
Speaker 1: your skull, how many all the Instagram lives, all the podcasts,
Speaker 1: all the posts that you have to do, all and
Speaker 1: all to move books. But my purpose in writing it
Speaker 1: wasn't to move books. It was to move hearts. And
Speaker 1: I have to remind myself constantly by why. And the
Speaker 1: why honestly was if one man can completely change or
Speaker 1: be open to looking at the world a different way,
Speaker 1: looking at himself a different way, looking at socialization, in
Speaker 1: the way he behaves, the way he's adapted to our
Speaker 1: patriarchal society, the way he treats the women in his life,
Speaker 1: the way he treats himself. If that one man can
Speaker 1: adjust his behavior, how many women does that man interact
Speaker 1: with on a daily basis, how many how many queer
Speaker 1: trans men is that man interact with on a daily basis?
Speaker 1: His children, maybe he has children, and that the amount
Speaker 1: of lives that that man can touch over the course
Speaker 1: of his lifetime is unquantifiable. You actually had a dry
Speaker 1: run for this book with your Ted Talk in two
Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen. And just talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: what instigated that kind of aha moment. And you and
Speaker 1: I have talked about it before, but give me the
Speaker 1: abridge version about why you decided to do this Ted
Speaker 1: talk and why it was really on your mind. Then
Speaker 1: you need to just share it with a lot of
Speaker 1: other people. Well, I didn't want to do the Ted Talk.
Speaker 1: I was terrified. First of all, I have a fear
Speaker 1: of public speaking. Um, I'm okay, like one on one,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there will be people that listen to your
Speaker 1: lovely podcast, Katie, but we're not in front of all
Speaker 1: of them, right. So I do have a bit of
Speaker 1: a fear of public speaking that I have to overcome.
Speaker 1: And uh, and so that was one thing, But the
Speaker 1: other was it was a Ted women talk. I was
Speaker 1: very early. This was this was four years ago. I was,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, very early in my journey of unpacking
Speaker 1: masculinity and unpacking my social socialization and how I even
Speaker 1: thought about it or looked at it or viewed it.
Speaker 1: I was early in my own discovery of my own
Speaker 1: unconscious biases. I was just early. And it was one
Speaker 1: of those things where I just felt like I was
Speaker 1: you know, when you start to build a little bit
Speaker 1: of a platform and you get a little bit of
Speaker 1: in our town, in our industry, things kind of happened,
Speaker 1: and I just kind of felt like it was early.
Speaker 1: I wasn't ready for it. Kind of felt like, you know,
Speaker 1: it was the horse before the cart, or the cart
Speaker 1: before the horse, however we want to look at it.
Speaker 1: And so I tried to back out of it, honestly
Speaker 1: because I was like, well, there's there's a that should
Speaker 1: be given to another woman, this is ted women. That
Speaker 1: should be given to a man who's been dedicating his
Speaker 1: life to do this, that should be given to a
Speaker 1: person of color who maybe hasn't had a platform. Why
Speaker 1: is why am I doing this? And and I wrestled
Speaker 1: with it, and what I what I came around to,
Speaker 1: was this this idea that I'm being put in this
Speaker 1: position for a reason, and there's not enough men who
Speaker 1: have been given all of the intersections of privilege that
Speaker 1: I've been given, who have chosen to then speak out
Speaker 1: and challenge said privilege and m and my message was
Speaker 1: never for women. It was always for men. But I
Speaker 1: was speaking to women. And that dry run was quite
Speaker 1: a painful run because while the it was received very
Speaker 1: well by many women, it was also not received very
Speaker 1: well by many men. And Facebook put it out. They
Speaker 1: took like that two minute section of the talk where
Speaker 1: I'm like getting super passionate, I mentioned me too, and
Speaker 1: they put it out and they got like fifty million
Speaker 1: views in a couple of days. And I noticed this
Speaker 1: pattern of men reposting it and attacking me and calling
Speaker 1: me names and saying questioning my intentions and talking about
Speaker 1: my looks and saying I'm all of these you know
Speaker 1: insults that um, you know, just they would. I don't
Speaker 1: even know half of the words that they used, but
Speaker 1: there's all these new insults. I guess. Um. Women were
Speaker 1: praising it. And then what I thought was interesting was
Speaker 1: men were privately writing me and thanking me. So there
Speaker 1: was this very strange distinction between the public perception of
Speaker 1: what it meant to be a man, and how men
Speaker 1: were demonizing me and saying I was a traitor to
Speaker 1: my own gender, how women were publicly applauding me, but
Speaker 1: the men who needed it were privately writing me. And
Speaker 1: I went, Okay, this is this is a symptom of
Speaker 1: a bigger problem. And then that's when I went deeper,
Speaker 1: and I realized that I needed a different platform. It
Speaker 1: wasn't a speech. I needed to find a way to
Speaker 1: get to a man and get two men where they
Speaker 1: could they could listen, they could absorb privately and not
Speaker 1: have to feel pressure, not have to feel like they're
Speaker 1: being persuaded. And I and and and it's very hard
Speaker 1: in an eighteen minute ted talk to reach men the
Speaker 1: way that I wanted to. And I if I could
Speaker 1: go back, I would change I think a lot of
Speaker 1: the way that I did that talk. But I was
Speaker 1: I was yeah, I was young, I was nervous. I
Speaker 1: didn't know what I really wanted to say. I was
Speaker 1: getting so many thoughts from so many different directions, and
Speaker 1: I really wasn't I don't know if I was as
Speaker 1: grounded in in um my, who I am as I am? Now,
Speaker 1: what do you think is behind toxic masculinity because certainly
Speaker 1: you see plenty of it out in the world. Uh.
Speaker 1: It seems to undergird a lot of these white supremacy movements.
Speaker 1: It seems to be permeating the culture. And what do
Speaker 1: you think it is? Is it fear? Is it kind
Speaker 1: of the backlash of being more inclusive when you talk
Speaker 1: to people who are not buying what you're selling. Why
Speaker 1: is it? Do you think? Well, first of all, I
Speaker 1: don't say toxic masculinity, and I write that early on
Speaker 1: in the book. Um, I think toxic masculinity has been misused,
Speaker 1: and it's been weaponized, and it's been politicized, which is
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we have this big gap
Speaker 1: that needs to be filled. And I think the key
Speaker 1: to filling that gap is compassionate empathy and seeing each other. Um.
Speaker 1: And So when I when I talk about masculinity, what
Speaker 1: I've learned over the last five years, where I made
Speaker 1: mistakes maybe, and the way that I was presenting what
Speaker 1: I was quote quote selling, as you say, um, is
Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking about how men feel, not how they
Speaker 1: like feel deep down, but how they think they feel.
Speaker 1: Because we haven't been taught to feel we haven't been
Speaker 1: taught to ask ourselves questions about how we feel about anything,
Speaker 1: which is one of the the myths of masculinity. Right,
Speaker 1: we have to go out it alone. We can't ask questions,
Speaker 1: so we don't we're not even aware of how we're feeling.
Speaker 1: I think, and because we've had two, as Bell hook says,
Speaker 1: engage in soul murder or that psychic act of self
Speaker 1: mutilation from a very early age, um, we are only
Speaker 1: allowed to feel anger and rage. Which, really, if you're
Speaker 1: going back to your question, if you think about what
Speaker 1: what one would say a toxic version of masculinity is,
Speaker 1: it is a lot of unexpressed sadness and loneliness, UM, fear, depression, isolation, UM,
Speaker 1: feeling like they don't belong, feeling not enough, and it's
Speaker 1: turned into rage, and it's turned into anger. Um, it's
Speaker 1: turned into violence. Uh So I don't say that because
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that is a that's one
Speaker 1: of the barriers to piece as an example, it's one
Speaker 1: of the barriers to unity, it's one of the barriers
Speaker 1: to empathy and compassion. So if I'm out here quoting
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity, and you know, Joe from wherever he's from,
Speaker 1: feels like the feminist movement is attacking him because he's
Speaker 1: not good and he should apologize for being a man.
Speaker 1: He's not gonna hear anything that I have to say,
Speaker 1: which is why the book is written from a very
Speaker 1: open place of Hey, I'm a dude, I'm a straight
Speaker 1: white guy, I have all I grew up an athlete.
Speaker 1: I'll go play sports with you, like I'll hit the
Speaker 1: weights with you in the gym, probably kick your ass
Speaker 1: on the field. But I'm also suffering from a problem
Speaker 1: that I helped perpetuating, and I didn't realize I was suffering.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about it. Let's talk about the ways
Speaker 1: that I'm hurting myself and I'm hurting others. So I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's the answer to your question, but
Speaker 1: I think that it is a lot of things. It's
Speaker 1: the socialization. It's the feeling like, as you know, as
Speaker 1: we know, equality for those of us with privilege can
Speaker 1: feel very similar to oppression, and this idea that no,
Speaker 1: we're not actually taking from us, we're not taking and redistributing,
Speaker 1: We're we're sharing. There's plenty to go around. It's not
Speaker 1: like there's there's there's plenty of pieces of pizza for everybody. Um,
Speaker 1: And that's just one of the things that I think
Speaker 1: we have to work on and that we're talking about here.
Speaker 1: You know, what, would you say the thesis of this
Speaker 1: book is because it has your message has evolved through
Speaker 1: the years. Well, the reason I say we're undefining masculinity
Speaker 1: instead of redefining it was, which was what I was
Speaker 1: saying for years, was because I realized, in doing my
Speaker 1: own work and looking at my own socialization, the way
Speaker 1: that I have been brought up as a man and
Speaker 1: my feeling of not being enough despite having and the
Speaker 1: world telling me that I should be, is that by
Speaker 1: redefining what it means to be a man, I would
Speaker 1: be excluding I would be creating the same problem again,
Speaker 1: I'd be creating a different looking box. And first of all,
Speaker 1: who the hell am I to redefine anything. I'm not
Speaker 1: a I'm not a scholar, I'm not a gender studies expert.
Speaker 1: I haven't written treatises on this. I'm just I'm just
Speaker 1: a guy trying to figure out what works and what
Speaker 1: doesn't for me, and why I have kept hurting people
Speaker 1: over and over again and hurt myself and I realized,
Speaker 1: and this kind of goes back to your first question
Speaker 1: is and what led me on the journey is that
Speaker 1: I was tired of hurting people, and I was tired
Speaker 1: of hurting myself. I was tired of putting on masks
Speaker 1: and armor that I didn't know I was wearing. I
Speaker 1: was tired of acting different based on who I was around.
Speaker 1: I was tired of puffing up my chest when I
Speaker 1: was around certain men that I felt insecure around or women. Um,
Speaker 1: and that happens over and over and over again, and
Speaker 1: I just didn't know why. I just couldn't be unapologetically
Speaker 1: me and uh, and that led me on this journey
Speaker 1: over time. And the thesis is to undefine it, to
Speaker 1: make room for anybody who identifies as a man to
Speaker 1: be allowed to feel and be a man, and to
Speaker 1: and to get rid of all of these pressures, these
Speaker 1: ridiculous patriarchal pressures that tell us we have to be
Speaker 1: X enough to be this, X enough to be that,
Speaker 1: X enough to be this, and to just remember that
Speaker 1: that we have been created noble, that we are enough
Speaker 1: just as we are. Well, take a short break, but
Speaker 1: when we come back, how to be man enough amid
Speaker 1: the Me Too movement that's right after this, you know,
Speaker 1: you and also society has been talking about this for
Speaker 1: a long time. You know this is not talking about this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and maybe not men, but still I think, you know,
Speaker 1: just being in the media as long as I've been
Speaker 1: justin and this is not necessarily a new phenomenon. And
Speaker 1: I'm curious why more progress hasn't been made and really
Speaker 1: investigating these sort of male archetypes and standards and pressures,
Speaker 1: and you know, you talk about not only toxic masculinity
Speaker 1: being a bad, misleading and toxic phraise, you talk that
Speaker 1: the guy code and grow up hair. I'm just curious
Speaker 1: why we haven't made more progress. And I also have
Speaker 1: this is a two parter, and I wonder how has
Speaker 1: kind of me too and Time's Up and this reckoning
Speaker 1: about gender equality and also racial equality that we've seen
Speaker 1: almost simultaneously, if that is made, made it worse in
Speaker 1: some ways that men are gravitating towards kind of clinging
Speaker 1: to their masculinity in a way that maybe the grip
Speaker 1: was starting to be looser. Does that make any sense?
Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense. I'm trying. Let me, let me
Speaker 1: try to Katie Kirk brilliant, Katie Kirk. No, I'm not
Speaker 1: let me try to Let me try, Let me try
Speaker 1: to um start with the first one. What's coming to
Speaker 1: me is if you take somebody who's in power and
Speaker 1: you say to that person, hey, I want to redistribute
Speaker 1: some of your power. It might be uncomfortable for a second,
Speaker 1: but don't worry. You'll still have power. It'll just look different.
Speaker 1: Because we live in a culture where power is um
Speaker 1: is in such high demand, but there's so little supply,
Speaker 1: that person is going to tense up and they're not
Speaker 1: going to want to relinquish that power. We see it
Speaker 1: play out over and over again. We've seen a play
Speaker 1: out throughout history. We see it play out in elections, politics,
Speaker 1: and it's just that's just the dynamic of our system,
Speaker 1: and that that power is the patriarchy, and that power
Speaker 1: benefits meant more than it would benefit women. The The
Speaker 1: issue is that we are we are. You know, women
Speaker 1: have been fighting for this. I mean just you used
Speaker 1: to go back in history. I mean just just the
Speaker 1: fact that women had to fight for the right to vote.
Speaker 1: It's not that long ago we're talking about our our
Speaker 1: grandparents could have touched this right and the same thing
Speaker 1: in the fight for racial justice. We're talking about our
Speaker 1: parents touched it. So we're just generations in to this
Speaker 1: idea of what equality looks like. And as we know,
Speaker 1: we learn masculinity generationally and socially and culturally. So I
Speaker 1: go back to that quote like for those with privilege,
Speaker 1: equality can feel like oppression. So what you have is
Speaker 1: you have these marginalized groups of people fighting because they're
Speaker 1: not being heard, and all the oppressors, all the all
Speaker 1: the the in this case, men um are looking at
Speaker 1: this and it doesn't make any sense to them because
Speaker 1: in their mind we're making progress, and their mind it's like,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about. There's equality? That woman just
Speaker 1: took my job, right, that's how that's how we're we
Speaker 1: think about these types of things, and that power redistribution
Speaker 1: feels like a power loss. The other issue is that
Speaker 1: we I don't think we know how to talk to
Speaker 1: each other. And you know, and look at I mean,
Speaker 1: look at the feminist movement. And again I'm not a scholar,
Speaker 1: and I'm clear in the way that I wrote the book.
Speaker 1: I wrote the book from a personal perspective because there
Speaker 1: were not there are not many books written like this
Speaker 1: there's a lot of books about data and facts and history,
Speaker 1: but not from a personal perspective where men can be
Speaker 1: invited into their own story. And just even you know,
Speaker 1: even even the evolution of feminism, I believe that feminism right,
Speaker 1: the radical notion that women are people, that women are
Speaker 1: human beings, um. The dismantling of a patriarchy to create
Speaker 1: a more equitable and us framework and system for everybody,
Speaker 1: including men, benefits men. But we take the parts of
Speaker 1: every movement um that are the most threatening, the two
Speaker 1: percent of people, right, the two percent of of women
Speaker 1: who may be made up their stories, and the me
Speaker 1: too movement, and then we use those two percent as
Speaker 1: a way to discount the other. And we do that
Speaker 1: throughout history, and of course throughout the feminist movement you
Speaker 1: had you had segments who were anti men. You had
Speaker 1: segments who were anti men, who hated and who justifiably
Speaker 1: were angry. And so what do we do as men?
Speaker 1: We take those two percent and we say, the feminist
Speaker 1: movement hates us, it's bad for us. They're out there angry,
Speaker 1: they're feminists, and all the things you hear a lot
Speaker 1: of these people say, when in reality, the majority of feminists,
Speaker 1: women that I know love men, MHM, want men to
Speaker 1: be happy, want men to be joyful, don't want men
Speaker 1: to suffer. Want there to be equality, inequity. And what
Speaker 1: I believe men are not realizing is that the system
Speaker 1: is not working for men. We might be looking at
Speaker 1: the power dynamic of our system and and in some
Speaker 1: ways we think it's good. We should fight for things,
Speaker 1: we should want things. But the patriarchy is built on
Speaker 1: a domination and a power grab. And what that means
Speaker 1: is that we're actually left feeling like less than, far
Speaker 1: more than we are feeling like we're enough. As men
Speaker 1: were suffering collectively and we're hurting, but we don't have
Speaker 1: the tools to know that we are hurting because nobody
Speaker 1: we're not able to talk to anybody about it. We
Speaker 1: don't even know that we're hurting. How many how much
Speaker 1: room is there at the top, there's room for a
Speaker 1: couple of people, but the rest of us. Men are
Speaker 1: not at the top. Men men are are working nine
Speaker 1: to five jobs that they hate. They're breaking their acts,
Speaker 1: they're trying to provide and protect their family. They're doing
Speaker 1: all of these things they've been told that they must
Speaker 1: do in order to feel like a man at the
Speaker 1: cost of their at the cost of their soul, the
Speaker 1: cost of their spirituality, the cost of their joy and
Speaker 1: their happiness. And therefore and then are hurting other people
Speaker 1: in their lives. They're hurting the women in their lives.
Speaker 1: And when we're trying and we're trying to gain power
Speaker 1: and we can't gain power over men, and we don't
Speaker 1: feel like we're enough in our jobs or wherever we are,
Speaker 1: where do we gain power, gain power in our interpersonal lives,
Speaker 1: gain power over the women in our lives because maybe
Speaker 1: we're physically stronger. We gain power over marginalized groups. And
Speaker 1: and again, so if you you kind of take that
Speaker 1: whole picture and you look at that, and then you understand, well,
Speaker 1: men don't know how to take feedback. We don't. We
Speaker 1: haven't been taught how to take feedback. We've been taught
Speaker 1: that we have to defend ourselves. We have been taught
Speaker 1: we have to put on our armor, that we have
Speaker 1: to be right. We can't ask for directions. So so
Speaker 1: if if a movement is trying to change things and
Speaker 1: we're saying this isn't working, I mean, just look at
Speaker 1: the not all men thing, right, we can't even hear
Speaker 1: feedback that the majority of women don't feel safe. They don't.
Speaker 1: It's not that they don't feel safe around other women.
Speaker 1: Women aren't doing the raping and the killing. Women aren't doing.
Speaker 1: Women aren't aren't sexually assaulting other women. Men are. But
Speaker 1: yet we have to defend ourselves and say, not all men.
Speaker 1: There's no space for growth, there's no space for any
Speaker 1: of it because men feel like they're being attacked when
Speaker 1: in reality they're not, Which is why the reason I
Speaker 1: don't think there's been progresses because we feel like powers
Speaker 1: being taken away from us. We feel like we're bad,
Speaker 1: we're wrong, we're not good. Well, clearly we just you know,
Speaker 1: we're just terrible people, that's like, And we become so fragile,
Speaker 1: or male egos are so fragile because that's what the
Speaker 1: patriarchy has done. It makes us so that our masculinity
Speaker 1: can be taken from us, as if there's such thing
Speaker 1: as emasculation, as if this is a right that can
Speaker 1: be taken away. And that's not how it works. Femininity
Speaker 1: can't be taken away. Do you think men have found
Speaker 1: me too? And time's up? And this reckoning about sexual
Speaker 1: harassment and gender equality. Uh, similarly threatening do they have
Speaker 1: they kind of dug in their heels as a result
Speaker 1: of it. What have you seen on the landscape at
Speaker 1: because of that? Yeah, this is the scary part is
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons why I wrote the book
Speaker 1: is because look, you were getting our information now from
Speaker 1: places we want to get our information. We get our news,
Speaker 1: we get we were educated by people that we agree with.
Speaker 1: So we're living in these silos of of misinformation and
Speaker 1: you see it everywhere. And unfortunately, I think the Me
Speaker 1: Too movement um scared a lot of men because I
Speaker 1: don't know one man who hasn't treated a woman like
Speaker 1: an object. I don't know one man who, over the
Speaker 1: course of his life, uh, in this patriarchal system where
Speaker 1: he must prove his masculinity, I didn't do so at
Speaker 1: the expensive women. And so when you have a movement
Speaker 1: like me Too, which thank god it exists, because that
Speaker 1: again that first that that pendulum swing is really uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: because it has to be when you have a movement
Speaker 1: like me to. What it brings to the surface is
Speaker 1: all the things we've all done as men that that
Speaker 1: we're embarrassed of or not proud of. And what's scary
Speaker 1: about the me too movement for men is that then
Speaker 1: suddenly that can become public. So I looked around and
Speaker 1: I saw men everywhere like, okay, am I next? Am
Speaker 1: I next? Because we've all done something we're not proud of,
Speaker 1: for the sake of our masculinity, for the sake of
Speaker 1: wanting to be accepted, for the sake of wanting to
Speaker 1: gain power, because we're taught from such a young age,
Speaker 1: we have to. So unfortunately, what do you I heard
Speaker 1: what everybody else heard, which is I can't hire a
Speaker 1: female system. And I'm saying why, Well, you know, because
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean if I say the wrong thing,
Speaker 1: or what if I could hug her? But there's no
Speaker 1: so men didn't have the vocabulary. The answer is not
Speaker 1: to not hire a female assistant. The answer is to
Speaker 1: ask for permission. If you is, can I give you
Speaker 1: a hug? The answer is to to communicate. The answer
Speaker 1: is to to to like, look at your behavior, right,
Speaker 1: But we don't want to change things because changes on comfortable.
Speaker 1: So do you think it stopped progress when it comes
Speaker 1: to men of following and looking at at how do
Speaker 1: you think it's it's actually encouraged. I think it helped.
Speaker 1: It's like the day after you go to the gym,
Speaker 1: you're working out. The day after you go to the gym,
Speaker 1: sometimes two days later you're really sore, you can't move.
Speaker 1: But the soreness is good. The soreness means your your
Speaker 1: muscle fibers, tour blood is filling up those injuries, and
Speaker 1: as they're forming and coming back together, they're they're coming
Speaker 1: back together stronger. And so I look at it as
Speaker 1: we're a couple of days out of the gym, and
Speaker 1: the Me Too movement was necessary, it was progress. It
Speaker 1: was painful on both sides. I mean the fact that
Speaker 1: women had to relive their traumas over and over and
Speaker 1: over again. I had so many conversations with people that
Speaker 1: I love who were sharing their stories, but in sharing
Speaker 1: their stories, they were re traumatizing themselves for what happened.
Speaker 1: So there's healing that happens, and there's also re traumatization
Speaker 1: because it has to happen. And they and they did
Speaker 1: it because it was a part. It was necessary. But
Speaker 1: we're in the we're two days out and we're sore,
Speaker 1: but it will benefit us because what's happened is that
Speaker 1: men are thinking. And even if there are there's a
Speaker 1: group of men who have put up their shields and
Speaker 1: are ready for battle, there's always going to be those
Speaker 1: groups that are resistant to change. When we come back
Speaker 1: porn addiction. How Justin was able to share even his
Speaker 1: deepest insecurities for all to read. I want to talk
Speaker 1: to you two about your personal story, because so much
Speaker 1: of this is you know, it is a manifesto, but
Speaker 1: it's a deeply personal story. And you talk about body issues,
Speaker 1: relationship issues, pornography issues, which was something that affected you
Speaker 1: when you were just ten years old. Um, and so
Speaker 1: were these things all really difficult to be honest about?
Speaker 1: I mean, did you have to kind of put aside
Speaker 1: any trepidation or any embarrassment or inhibition I guess to
Speaker 1: kind of like, hey, I mean and and and maybe
Speaker 1: talk about how you were able to expose that side
Speaker 1: of you and what that side of you was justin too. Well, yeah, Katie,
Speaker 1: it was. It's terrible because these are things that you
Speaker 1: talked about, Araby. But the problem is, and even with
Speaker 1: my clothes, my best guy friends, is that we struggle
Speaker 1: being truly vulnerable with each other. And I would say
Speaker 1: I have a pretty progressive group of male friends, just
Speaker 1: the fact that we're willing to check in with each other,
Speaker 1: ask how our hearts are, have these conversations. But there's
Speaker 1: so many times we've left individually, and I've left my
Speaker 1: other friends feeling worse about myself because I felt alone.
Speaker 1: Because even in my quote unquote progressive group of friends
Speaker 1: of male friends, people struggle with sharing their vulnerability, sharing
Speaker 1: the parts of them that aren't working, sharing the sharing
Speaker 1: their addictions or whatever it is, their fears. Because we
Speaker 1: have to. It's like a conscious unlearning unpacking in real time.
Speaker 1: It's like literally taking off your were and saying it's
Speaker 1: okay if I'm shot. Because we've been it's been reinforced
Speaker 1: that we're not allowed to share. We're not allowed to
Speaker 1: tell another man something that could be used against us
Speaker 1: because we, no matter how we slice it, we think
Speaker 1: that that's going to make us less then him, maybe
Speaker 1: we won't be as valuable to the group. So all
Speaker 1: of that was underneath everything that I wrote, and I
Speaker 1: just kept thinking about that guy me, who desperately needed
Speaker 1: to hear that he wasn't the only person suffering, who
Speaker 1: desperately needed to hear that he wasn't alone who desperately
Speaker 1: needed to hear that he's battled whatever X issue, porn,
Speaker 1: body image, he doesn't feel like he's enough in whatever area.
Speaker 1: And that was what gave me the strength to keep
Speaker 1: doing it. But but I did not plan on writing
Speaker 1: the book this way. It was through the writing process.
Speaker 1: I would start writing and then suddenly these stories would
Speaker 1: come out. And I remember what happened to me when
Speaker 1: I was ten, and as I was writing, I was
Speaker 1: connecting the dot back to my struggle as a thirty
Speaker 1: year old and I and in the writing process, I
Speaker 1: recognized that there you can't separate the two things and
Speaker 1: they're all a part of the same thing. So it
Speaker 1: was necessary, but it was it was terrifying because the
Speaker 1: fact that the fact remains, like, yeah, all of this
Speaker 1: can be used against me, but I also hate pedestals
Speaker 1: and the performative wokeness thing doesn't serve anybody. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just had a conversation with a dear friend of
Speaker 1: mine who told me that one of the most abusive
Speaker 1: men that she's ever dated wore a this is what
Speaker 1: a feminist looks like t shirt And this is why
Speaker 1: people are sick. This is why people don't like religion.
Speaker 1: This is why people don't like you know, wokeness or
Speaker 1: woke culture and all this stuff, because you have you
Speaker 1: have um actions that differ from words, and the behind
Speaker 1: faith were told let deeds, not words be your adorning.
Speaker 1: True faith is an abundance of deeds in a fewness
Speaker 1: of words. And that's where we gotta get to. Where
Speaker 1: it's about, Okay, take me off the platform. This platform. Sure,
Speaker 1: I'm sharing these things, but that doesn't that's how low
Speaker 1: the bar is. Like the bar is that low that
Speaker 1: a man can talk about some of these things and
Speaker 1: suddenly be praised. Take me off. I don't need to
Speaker 1: be praised. What I need is for other men to
Speaker 1: see themselves in my story and start to have their
Speaker 1: actions impacted, start to treat the people in their lives differently,
Speaker 1: starting with themselves. What do we do though, you know,
Speaker 1: justin we're all products of our cultural conditioning. And I
Speaker 1: did a whole podcast on violent porn, which is so
Speaker 1: scary because kids are being a exposed to this at
Speaker 1: a very early age, and it's about you know, sex
Speaker 1: and how this is translating into intimacy, and it is
Speaker 1: so scary how easily accessible it is and I know
Speaker 1: that you were exposed to it when you were just
Speaker 1: ten years old, and what what do we do about that?
Speaker 1: Because I think also there's a huge vacuum, and it's
Speaker 1: that it's being filled with in many cases, violent porn.
Speaker 1: It's a what twelve billion dollar annual industry, UM, and
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do about it. I think
Speaker 1: it's a really large question. I think again we have
Speaker 1: to first remember that it's an industry. An industry wants
Speaker 1: to sell you something. What's interesting about the porn industry
Speaker 1: is that very similar to um, the tech industry, it's
Speaker 1: about users, users, right, So they're acquiring the users you
Speaker 1: use porn. And I think the biggest problem we have
Speaker 1: is a lack of education and a lot of that UM,
Speaker 1: A lot of that comes from us not being willing
Speaker 1: to talk about one of the most basic human things
Speaker 1: in existence, because as we've made it taboo. Think about
Speaker 1: think about two of the things that the most taboo
Speaker 1: in our culture to talk about death and sex. But
Speaker 1: yet we need sex to procreate, and we all were
Speaker 1: going to die, all of us are. That's why I
Speaker 1: spent the last ten years doing my last days, which
Speaker 1: is how we first met, right and telling the stories
Speaker 1: of people who were dying to help us learn how
Speaker 1: to live. Because we can't run away from it. It's
Speaker 1: going to happen. So why are we running away from sex?
Speaker 1: I am writing this book was transported back being ten
Speaker 1: and learning about my body, not from my parents, kind
Speaker 1: of from other boys, but more than anything, from porn.
Speaker 1: If we're embarrassed to talk about it, we're embarrassed to
Speaker 1: talk to our kids about it. If we don't tell
Speaker 1: our boys that their bodies are gonna changing, they're gonna
Speaker 1: start getting erections that they can't control. That's gonna pop
Speaker 1: up everywhere. They're gonna start like lusting after like things,
Speaker 1: they're gonna start wanting. You know, if we don't prepare
Speaker 1: them for that, where are they going to go? And
Speaker 1: if we then associate those things with shame, then their
Speaker 1: sexuality becomes shameful and they only they look for it
Speaker 1: in the dark, They look for it alone, and what
Speaker 1: and then we can't control what they watch and as
Speaker 1: we know, Look, there was a study that was done
Speaker 1: I put it in the book where they they looked
Speaker 1: at the brains of people that were while they were
Speaker 1: watching porn, and what they found was that the part
Speaker 1: of the brain that lit up while someone was watching
Speaker 1: porn was the part of the brain that associated the
Speaker 1: images with objects, not people. So if you think about like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you mix in violence, but you also make in the
Speaker 1: fact that you're watching objects, if you're a head or
Speaker 1: sexual manner watching women, the woman is an object. You
Speaker 1: compound that with how we're taught, how we are taught
Speaker 1: to talk about women, how we get a girl possession
Speaker 1: possessive objects, how women are less than in our vocabulary.
Speaker 1: Being a girl means is synonymous with being weak. And
Speaker 1: then you put all that together. And of course, of
Speaker 1: course there's a correlation between rape culture and violence and
Speaker 1: sex and porn because that's the system that we have.
Speaker 1: So what the solution, I think is the first step
Speaker 1: is we have to be willing to talk to young
Speaker 1: people about up their bodies and not be embarrassed or ashamed.
Speaker 1: We have to be willing to explain that sex is
Speaker 1: necessary for human procreation in many ways, and that it's
Speaker 1: not a bad thing, it's not a shameful thing. Let's
Speaker 1: put some guide, let's put some really rules around it.
Speaker 1: Let's teach our let's teach boys at an early age
Speaker 1: what consent looks like, because I can tell you I
Speaker 1: didn't learn consent. Nobody had the conversation with me. What
Speaker 1: did I think consent was growing up? Well, well, important
Speaker 1: no means yes, no, no, no no, no no, It just
Speaker 1: means you keep trying. And what do the boys tell us? Right,
Speaker 1: how many nose gets s? This is this is the culture.
Speaker 1: So of course, of course women don't feel safe. Of
Speaker 1: course one in four one in five women are going
Speaker 1: to be raped in their lifetime because this is what
Speaker 1: we're teaching her boys how to do primarily through porn.
Speaker 1: Primarily through porn, and through the socialization of what it
Speaker 1: means to be a man through the boys, the getting
Speaker 1: of women, the conquering right, those types of things, the
Speaker 1: power dominance, the power struggle. If we can't get powers
Speaker 1: in one place, we've got to get power somewhere else.
Speaker 1: And then, of course porn is a lot of porn
Speaker 1: is extremely violent, and we learned about that. We think
Speaker 1: women want that, but nobody's ever like if if as
Speaker 1: boys we were to ask women. And also, let's just
Speaker 1: be clear, women are also socialized in the same way,
Speaker 1: so we're not like not It's not like boys are
Speaker 1: socialized in this vacuum. Women and men are socialized in
Speaker 1: the same way, and there's a lot of un learning
Speaker 1: on both sides that has to happen. And women also
Speaker 1: watch porn, and in some ways, I want to be
Speaker 1: very clear, I'm not calling out the whole porn industry,
Speaker 1: because I know I know a lot of folks who
Speaker 1: have been oppressed in their life is queer and gay
Speaker 1: folks who then have seen that for the first time
Speaker 1: and felt like they weren't alone too so, But at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's an industry, and I
Speaker 1: do believe it's doing farm more harm than good. You
Speaker 1: also dig into your own experience with racism and your
Speaker 1: own reality of your racism, and I'm curious how hard
Speaker 1: that was, because that, again, justin is unlearning certain attitudes
Speaker 1: and stereotypes that I think subconsciously and consciously you're kind
Speaker 1: of promoted and fed to us from a very young age.
Speaker 1: Who well, yeah, that one was really hard. I really
Speaker 1: had to look at my own behavior. And as I
Speaker 1: was writing the book, of course, it was over the
Speaker 1: pandemic and George Floyd was murdered and this again was
Speaker 1: just another example, but this time it was nine minutes
Speaker 1: and it was caught on video, and it's struck different
Speaker 1: as it did for a lot of white folks. And
Speaker 1: um and I just went back and I remembered all
Speaker 1: of the little conversations I've had with my black friends
Speaker 1: and the defensiveness and my not willing to advocate as
Speaker 1: much as I've advocated for gender equality and sexism, which
Speaker 1: showed me that I was more defensive about it. That's
Speaker 1: all it did, was it showed me, like, oh, why
Speaker 1: wouldn't I fight is hard for the elimination of racial
Speaker 1: prejudice as I do for the equality of women and men.
Speaker 1: There's something, there's a there's something missing, especially because it's
Speaker 1: growing up as a be high I'm told that you
Speaker 1: can't separate these two things and justices and justice, like
Speaker 1: you know, racial prejudice is, if anything, the most persistent
Speaker 1: evil in the world. Um and uh. And I just
Speaker 1: had to dig in and I had to look at it.
Speaker 1: And I had asked myself, why why am I offensive
Speaker 1: about it? What is it about? What is it about
Speaker 1: this subject that is more uncomfortable for me and maybe
Speaker 1: for other white folks. And I hadn't seen the example
Speaker 1: of other people really going into detail about ways that
Speaker 1: they've been raisist, And I think I think everyone's afraid
Speaker 1: of cancel culture maybe a little bit and being held accountable.
Speaker 1: But if you look at that generally, that's when somebody
Speaker 1: is not willing to look at their stuff. It's not
Speaker 1: willing to bring themselves off of the quote unquote pedestal.
Speaker 1: And how can we learn, like if this is for
Speaker 1: white folks, how can how can we white folks learn
Speaker 1: if we don't have that example. If I don't know
Speaker 1: the ways that Katie Kirk is messed up. I looked
Speaker 1: up to Katie Kirk, Well, how is Katie Kirk failed
Speaker 1: in this way? Well, one, it'll make me feel better,
Speaker 1: but too, I can learn from your mistakes. And I
Speaker 1: wasn't seeing that anywhere. I wasn't seeing that on Instagram post.
Speaker 1: I wasn't seeing anybody talk willingly, like willingly about ways
Speaker 1: that they have messed up and not and and been
Speaker 1: racist or mistreated black folks or or been a bad friend.
Speaker 1: And so I then going through process it was also
Speaker 1: healing for me. I share a story about my friend
Speaker 1: Kay and I share one of my best friends, Jamie
Speaker 1: um and and and there's a lot more conversations than
Speaker 1: these and I did it because I want other white
Speaker 1: folks to know that it doesn't make them a racist
Speaker 1: or a bad person to have been brought up in
Speaker 1: a system that, without realizing it, um awards those of
Speaker 1: us that look a certain way differently, gives us a
Speaker 1: head start, if you will. And of course we're going
Speaker 1: to say things that are dumb and we're gonna hurt people,
Speaker 1: but we have to recognize that and then we can
Speaker 1: move forward. And we have to apologize for it and
Speaker 1: come to terms with it. And not everybody's gonna want
Speaker 1: accept our polpology and that's okay too. So it was
Speaker 1: really hard. I'm great full I did it. It's one
Speaker 1: of my favorite pieces of feedback has been from white
Speaker 1: folks who say that chapter changed their perspective on the movement,
Speaker 1: because again, just like the fragile male ego, we have
Speaker 1: the fragile white ego. You know, as a dad and
Speaker 1: as someone who writes a lot about experience that you
Speaker 1: had as a younger man, what can we start doing
Speaker 1: for this next generation. I feel like they're so far
Speaker 1: ahead of us. I mean, you're are you a millennial
Speaker 1: justin or you like a I'm considered an old millennial,
Speaker 1: an old I'm a geriatric millennial, and I'm a young
Speaker 1: baby boomer. You're a baby baby boomer. I'm an old millennial.
Speaker 1: I think forties the cut off. Now I'm thirty seven,
Speaker 1: so you've got I don't. I'm not gonna well, I
Speaker 1: will say I'm sixty four. And what what can be
Speaker 1: done to help help It's all about the ring, right, honey.
Speaker 1: What can be done to to help your kids and
Speaker 1: my kids? And you know, we talked about the suicide
Speaker 1: rate being so high. I think the average person who
Speaker 1: takes their own life is a year old male. And
Speaker 1: and how can we start shifting things so attitudes change
Speaker 1: and behavior changes. I think it starts. It starts very young.
Speaker 1: I think it starts in our parenting. Honestly, um, I
Speaker 1: go back to that idea of being imperfect, which is
Speaker 1: I think that's where perfection lies. And you know, raising
Speaker 1: our kids to recognize their own value, their own worth,
Speaker 1: their own enoughness to not seek it externally. You know.
Speaker 1: One of the ways I'm in this day and age, well,
Speaker 1: one of the reasons, you know, I'm thinking about how
Speaker 1: the world's going to be socializing my daughter and my son,
Speaker 1: and how the world is going to be telling my
Speaker 1: daughter that she has to be one thing and how
Speaker 1: my son has to be another thing. Emily and I
Speaker 1: have been saying, Okay, well, how do we how do
Speaker 1: we start to reverse that damage early on and to
Speaker 1: build strong foundations. And so we teach our daughter at
Speaker 1: home the opposite, that she can take up all the
Speaker 1: space she wants, that she can be loud, that she
Speaker 1: can take physical risks, that she can be brave and
Speaker 1: strong and tough, um at the same time not not
Speaker 1: having her kill off the sensitive parts of herselves like
Speaker 1: we make boys do, as she can be a full
Speaker 1: human being. And we teach our boy that it's okay
Speaker 1: to ask questions, that it's okay to be sensitive, that
Speaker 1: it's okay to cry, that it's okay to ask for
Speaker 1: help when he's hurting, to express himself, that it's also
Speaker 1: okay to not take physical risks, that it's okay we
Speaker 1: gotta be mindful of the space that he takes up,
Speaker 1: because the world is going to tell him he can
Speaker 1: take up as much as he wants. So that's one way,
Speaker 1: that's one thing that we're doing while also just allowing
Speaker 1: them to be who they are and not trying to
Speaker 1: change them. So one way is I think the way
Speaker 1: we're intentionally raising our children. Um. The other way is
Speaker 1: as parents, by modeling the behavior we want our children
Speaker 1: to grow up accepting. And oftentimes as parents, we try
Speaker 1: to hide our imperfections. We try to hide our flaws,
Speaker 1: We try to be superheroes, when in reality, all we're
Speaker 1: doing is setting our kids up for failure, for expectations
Speaker 1: that will never be men and what are expectations, They're
Speaker 1: just planned disappointments. So when we when we're flawed, when
Speaker 1: we're human, when we cry, when we're angry, when we
Speaker 1: use that as teaching opportunities to let them know that
Speaker 1: we are flawed and imperfect. Because the more that we
Speaker 1: can raise our children to recognize their own enoughness, the
Speaker 1: more they're going to not have to seek their validation
Speaker 1: by making someone else feel like they're not enough. The
Speaker 1: other part of youre, a part of this whole thing
Speaker 1: is that we have to learn to see each other.
Speaker 1: We have to see each other and listen to each other,
Speaker 1: even when we're listening two things that maybe are uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: We can't be so fragile in our identities and so
Speaker 1: attached to our beliefs in our politics that it prevents
Speaker 1: us from seeing another segment of the population, from seeing
Speaker 1: our own family members. We have to be open, we
Speaker 1: have to be willing to learn to be curious. That
Speaker 1: is the thing that's going to I think solve more
Speaker 1: than anything, is helping people realize that they are not
Speaker 1: their faults. They're not there insecurities, they are not their
Speaker 1: subconscious racist behavior. They are not their sexist behavior doesn't
Speaker 1: make there's no like, there's no there's no perfect person.
Speaker 1: There's no good or bad except that, which makes it so.
Speaker 1: We're just people, all of us trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what the hell we're doing on this floating rock, knowing
Speaker 1: we only have a limited amount of time on this earth,
Speaker 1: and trying to be happy and and create a world
Speaker 1: that is sustainable that our children can inherit. None of
Speaker 1: us know, and we're surviving. We're trying to put roof
Speaker 1: keep roofs on our heads. And I think that if
Speaker 1: we can just have empathy for each other, and again
Speaker 1: I recognize it's easy to say in the position of
Speaker 1: privilege that I'm in, but if we can just go
Speaker 1: back to having empathy for each other, not ampathy, empathy
Speaker 1: then we'll start to see each other and recognize our
Speaker 1: enoughness as that as we are, and little by little
Speaker 1: and day by day, things will improve. And that's kind
Speaker 1: of all I got. I mean, we could go deeper
Speaker 1: and deeper and deeper, but that's great. And I know
Speaker 1: you're writing books to kind of address this, so people
Speaker 1: can expand their minds kids at an early age and
Speaker 1: stop before it's too late, honestly, And is it too late?
Speaker 1: I mean, I've I've had it again. My neighbor is
Speaker 1: eight five years old, saw me on one of the
Speaker 1: Today Show or whatever and asked if you could read
Speaker 1: the book, and I gave him a signed copy and
Speaker 1: telling me how much he's learning. I'm hearing from guys
Speaker 1: in their sixties and seventies saying, Wow, this is the
Speaker 1: this is the first time I'm seeing myself. I've read
Speaker 1: all that, I've read other masculinity books, but nobody ever
Speaker 1: talked about their own problems. And I see my problem.
Speaker 1: I see my stuff in yours, and and that's what
Speaker 1: it comes down to. Is it ever too late? I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't think it is. My dad see learning, evolving, growing,
Speaker 1: having conversations he's never had before that were never modeled
Speaker 1: for him. I believe so much in our capacity as
Speaker 1: human beings to remember to remember our innate worthiness, our goodness,
Speaker 1: our humanity. I don't think it's ever too late. Thank
Speaker 1: you to Justin Baldoni, such a nice guy. His book
Speaker 1: is called Man Enough, Undefining My Masculinity. Oh and just
Speaker 1: to heads up, dear listeners, my memoir Going There is
Speaker 1: coming out on Octobers, and I'll be heading on a
Speaker 1: national book tour like in person fingers crossed. To find
Speaker 1: out when and where I'm headed, and to get your tickets,
Speaker 1: check out ticketmaster dot com slash Going There. So I
Speaker 1: hope to see you guys on the road on the
Speaker 1: next installment of my Summer book series. When you play
Speaker 1: a character for seven years, it can be hard to
Speaker 1: let her go. She was so so embedded under my
Speaker 1: skin still when I would see that scene or think
Speaker 1: of that scene tear up. Julianna Marghalie's on Alicia Floriic
Speaker 1: and the memoir she wrote after The Good Wife came
Speaker 1: to an end. I wanted to start exploring who I
Speaker 1: was and not just this person running into circles trying
Speaker 1: to make it everything work. That's next week on Next Question.
Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Media and Katie currk Media. The executive producers Army,
Speaker 1: Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen.
Speaker 1: Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The
Speaker 1: show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more
Speaker 1: information about today's episode, or to sign up for my
Speaker 1: morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie Currek dot com.
Speaker 1: You can also find me at Katie Curic on Instagram
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