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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: Justin Baldoni is a producer, director, and actor who is

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Speaker 1: probably best known for his long running character on Jane

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Speaker 1: the Virgin. On the show's five seasons, Justin played Rafael Salano,

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Speaker 1: the sensitive reform playboy who fell in love with the

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Speaker 1: titular Jane a virgin. This is hard doing everything backwards,

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Speaker 1: and we'll have a baby and then we're going on

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Speaker 1: our first state. But the actor, whose roles literally embodied

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Speaker 1: a certain type of shirtless machismo masculinity, is on a

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Speaker 1: new mission to help change the way men and society

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Speaker 1: think about masculinity. This idea started out as a Ted

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Speaker 1: talk back in two thousand and seventeen called why I'm

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Speaker 1: Done Being Man Enough? And I'm just a guy that

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Speaker 1: woke up after thirty years and realized that I was

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Speaker 1: living in a state of conflict, conflict with who I

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Speaker 1: feel I am in my core and conflict with who

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Speaker 1: the world tells me as a man I should be.

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Speaker 1: Then it's spun out into a web series, so the

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Speaker 1: show is called men Enough. What does that mean to you?

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Speaker 1: Good question? Then be a Man? And now it's a

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Speaker 1: book called man enough, undefining my masculinity. It's a very

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Speaker 1: personal book that shares a lot of Justin Baldoni as

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Speaker 1: he explores what it means to be a man. Justin

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Speaker 1: Baldoni one of my favorite people. I'm so happy to

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Speaker 1: talk to you. I love talking to you about so

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Speaker 1: many different things, and we're here talking about your book.

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Speaker 1: You've got a book out. How does it feel? First

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Speaker 1: and foremost, because I'm scared to death for when mine

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Speaker 1: comes out, because you feel so vulnerable. It's pretty terrible, Katie.

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Speaker 1: It's awesome and terrible at the same time. I always say,

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Speaker 1: as a filmmaker, every scenes to two things at once.

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Speaker 1: There's like joy and pain, right and uh, And this

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Speaker 1: is a lot of excitement, and it's also really terrifying

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Speaker 1: because you're when you write, it's like there's nothing more

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Speaker 1: vulnerable than that. You're writing your heart and your soul

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Speaker 1: and you're putting it all out there for people to consume,

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Speaker 1: and you hope that they haven't an experience, and you

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Speaker 1: know that people would disagree. And it's not like making

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Speaker 1: a movie or you know, making a show for you

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Speaker 1: or you know, doing a broadcast. It's this is your life.

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Speaker 1: This is you. So I'm I know I'm not making

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Speaker 1: you feel any better, uh, but I'm so happy that

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Speaker 1: you did it. Your life, your book is going to

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Speaker 1: be incredible. Well, tell me what their response has been

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Speaker 1: so far to your honesty and your openness, your vulnerability,

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Speaker 1: admitting your mistakes and really putting it out there. Tell

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Speaker 1: me what people have said to you about it. Why

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Speaker 1: I'm for Ptty sensitive. So I really I don't go searching.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I try not to read the comments. Um

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Speaker 1: I look at UM. I have this belief that I

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Speaker 1: don't want to believe the bad or the good. I

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Speaker 1: don't want I don't want the court of public opinion

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Speaker 1: to sway my own self worth. Well, that's pretty hard

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Speaker 1: to do these days, isn't it. Justice, It's extremely hard

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Speaker 1: to do. And so so what I think I think

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Speaker 1: about it's it's kind of like a conservation. It's a

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Speaker 1: protection of my energy whenever I can. It's like this

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Speaker 1: bubble and I and I just try to avoid looking

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Speaker 1: for it. You know. There's the response has been really beautiful,

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Speaker 1: to be quite frank, I mean, I am I have

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Speaker 1: this text community. I think you're a part of it

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Speaker 1: as well, and that's really kind of where I um,

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Speaker 1: I engage them most and UH and you know, when

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Speaker 1: I wrote the book, I wrote it as a service,

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Speaker 1: and it's always tricky because in our business, UH, service

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Speaker 1: can be conflated with economic game. And so it's really

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Speaker 1: been this balance of remembering my why, going back to

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Speaker 1: what I actually write about in the book, the why ladder, remembering,

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Speaker 1: remembering my purpose, what my intention was, and not thinking

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Speaker 1: about how many books are sold and all the stuff

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Speaker 1: that inevitably the publisher is going to just pound into

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Speaker 1: your skull, how many all the Instagram lives, all the podcasts,

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Speaker 1: all the posts that you have to do, all and

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Speaker 1: all to move books. But my purpose in writing it

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Speaker 1: wasn't to move books. It was to move hearts. And

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Speaker 1: I have to remind myself constantly by why. And the

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Speaker 1: why honestly was if one man can completely change or

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Speaker 1: be open to looking at the world a different way,

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Speaker 1: looking at himself a different way, looking at socialization, in

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Speaker 1: the way he behaves, the way he's adapted to our

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Speaker 1: patriarchal society, the way he treats the women in his life,

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Speaker 1: the way he treats himself. If that one man can

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Speaker 1: adjust his behavior, how many women does that man interact

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Speaker 1: with on a daily basis, how many how many queer

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Speaker 1: trans men is that man interact with on a daily basis?

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Speaker 1: His children, maybe he has children, and that the amount

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Speaker 1: of lives that that man can touch over the course

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Speaker 1: of his lifetime is unquantifiable. You actually had a dry

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Speaker 1: run for this book with your Ted Talk in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen. And just talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: what instigated that kind of aha moment. And you and

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Speaker 1: I have talked about it before, but give me the

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Speaker 1: abridge version about why you decided to do this Ted

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Speaker 1: talk and why it was really on your mind. Then

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Speaker 1: you need to just share it with a lot of

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Speaker 1: other people. Well, I didn't want to do the Ted Talk.

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Speaker 1: I was terrified. First of all, I have a fear

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Speaker 1: of public speaking. Um, I'm okay, like one on one,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there will be people that listen to your

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Speaker 1: lovely podcast, Katie, but we're not in front of all

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Speaker 1: of them, right. So I do have a bit of

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Speaker 1: a fear of public speaking that I have to overcome.

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Speaker 1: And uh, and so that was one thing, But the

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Speaker 1: other was it was a Ted women talk. I was

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Speaker 1: very early. This was this was four years ago. I was,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, very early in my journey of unpacking

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Speaker 1: masculinity and unpacking my social socialization and how I even

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Speaker 1: thought about it or looked at it or viewed it.

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Speaker 1: I was early in my own discovery of my own

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Speaker 1: unconscious biases. I was just early. And it was one

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Speaker 1: of those things where I just felt like I was

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Speaker 1: you know, when you start to build a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a platform and you get a little bit of

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Speaker 1: in our town, in our industry, things kind of happened,

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Speaker 1: and I just kind of felt like it was early.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't ready for it. Kind of felt like, you know,

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Speaker 1: it was the horse before the cart, or the cart

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Speaker 1: before the horse, however we want to look at it.

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Speaker 1: And so I tried to back out of it, honestly

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Speaker 1: because I was like, well, there's there's a that should

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Speaker 1: be given to another woman, this is ted women. That

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Speaker 1: should be given to a man who's been dedicating his

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Speaker 1: life to do this, that should be given to a

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Speaker 1: person of color who maybe hasn't had a platform. Why

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Speaker 1: is why am I doing this? And and I wrestled

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Speaker 1: with it, and what I what I came around to,

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Speaker 1: was this this idea that I'm being put in this

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Speaker 1: position for a reason, and there's not enough men who

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Speaker 1: have been given all of the intersections of privilege that

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Speaker 1: I've been given, who have chosen to then speak out

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Speaker 1: and challenge said privilege and m and my message was

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Speaker 1: never for women. It was always for men. But I

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Speaker 1: was speaking to women. And that dry run was quite

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Speaker 1: a painful run because while the it was received very

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Speaker 1: well by many women, it was also not received very

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Speaker 1: well by many men. And Facebook put it out. They

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Speaker 1: took like that two minute section of the talk where

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Speaker 1: I'm like getting super passionate, I mentioned me too, and

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Speaker 1: they put it out and they got like fifty million

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Speaker 1: views in a couple of days. And I noticed this

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Speaker 1: pattern of men reposting it and attacking me and calling

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Speaker 1: me names and saying questioning my intentions and talking about

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Speaker 1: my looks and saying I'm all of these you know

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Speaker 1: insults that um, you know, just they would. I don't

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Speaker 1: even know half of the words that they used, but

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Speaker 1: there's all these new insults. I guess. Um. Women were

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Speaker 1: praising it. And then what I thought was interesting was

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Speaker 1: men were privately writing me and thanking me. So there

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Speaker 1: was this very strange distinction between the public perception of

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Speaker 1: what it meant to be a man, and how men

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Speaker 1: were demonizing me and saying I was a traitor to

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Speaker 1: my own gender, how women were publicly applauding me, but

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Speaker 1: the men who needed it were privately writing me. And

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Speaker 1: I went, Okay, this is this is a symptom of

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Speaker 1: a bigger problem. And then that's when I went deeper,

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Speaker 1: and I realized that I needed a different platform. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't a speech. I needed to find a way to

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Speaker 1: get to a man and get two men where they

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Speaker 1: could they could listen, they could absorb privately and not

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Speaker 1: have to feel pressure, not have to feel like they're

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Speaker 1: being persuaded. And I and and and it's very hard

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Speaker 1: in an eighteen minute ted talk to reach men the

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Speaker 1: way that I wanted to. And I if I could

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Speaker 1: go back, I would change I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: the way that I did that talk. But I was

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Speaker 1: I was yeah, I was young, I was nervous. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what I really wanted to say. I was

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Speaker 1: getting so many thoughts from so many different directions, and

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Speaker 1: I really wasn't I don't know if I was as

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Speaker 1: grounded in in um my, who I am as I am? Now,

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Speaker 1: what do you think is behind toxic masculinity because certainly

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Speaker 1: you see plenty of it out in the world. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It seems to undergird a lot of these white supremacy movements.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be permeating the culture. And what do

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Speaker 1: you think it is? Is it fear? Is it kind

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Speaker 1: of the backlash of being more inclusive when you talk

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Speaker 1: to people who are not buying what you're selling. Why

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Speaker 1: is it? Do you think? Well, first of all, I

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Speaker 1: don't say toxic masculinity, and I write that early on

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Speaker 1: in the book. Um, I think toxic masculinity has been misused,

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Speaker 1: and it's been weaponized, and it's been politicized, which is

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we have this big gap

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Speaker 1: that needs to be filled. And I think the key

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Speaker 1: to filling that gap is compassionate empathy and seeing each other. Um.

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Speaker 1: And So when I when I talk about masculinity, what

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Speaker 1: I've learned over the last five years, where I made

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Speaker 1: mistakes maybe, and the way that I was presenting what

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Speaker 1: I was quote quote selling, as you say, um, is

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Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking about how men feel, not how they

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Speaker 1: like feel deep down, but how they think they feel.

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Speaker 1: Because we haven't been taught to feel we haven't been

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Speaker 1: taught to ask ourselves questions about how we feel about anything,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the the myths of masculinity. Right,

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Speaker 1: we have to go out it alone. We can't ask questions,

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Speaker 1: so we don't we're not even aware of how we're feeling.

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Speaker 1: I think, and because we've had two, as Bell hook says,

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Speaker 1: engage in soul murder or that psychic act of self

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Speaker 1: mutilation from a very early age, um, we are only

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Speaker 1: allowed to feel anger and rage. Which, really, if you're

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Speaker 1: going back to your question, if you think about what

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Speaker 1: what one would say a toxic version of masculinity is,

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Speaker 1: it is a lot of unexpressed sadness and loneliness, UM, fear, depression, isolation, UM,

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Speaker 1: feeling like they don't belong, feeling not enough, and it's

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Speaker 1: turned into rage, and it's turned into anger. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: turned into violence. Uh So I don't say that because

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Speaker 1: that's one of the things that is a that's one

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Speaker 1: of the barriers to piece as an example, it's one

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Speaker 1: of the barriers to unity, it's one of the barriers

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Speaker 1: to empathy and compassion. So if I'm out here quoting

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Speaker 1: toxic masculinity, and you know, Joe from wherever he's from,

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Speaker 1: feels like the feminist movement is attacking him because he's

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Speaker 1: not good and he should apologize for being a man.

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Speaker 1: He's not gonna hear anything that I have to say,

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Speaker 1: which is why the book is written from a very

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Speaker 1: open place of Hey, I'm a dude, I'm a straight

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Speaker 1: white guy, I have all I grew up an athlete.

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Speaker 1: I'll go play sports with you, like I'll hit the

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Speaker 1: weights with you in the gym, probably kick your ass

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Speaker 1: on the field. But I'm also suffering from a problem

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Speaker 1: that I helped perpetuating, and I didn't realize I was suffering.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about it. Let's talk about the ways

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Speaker 1: that I'm hurting myself and I'm hurting others. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that's the answer to your question, but

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Speaker 1: I think that it is a lot of things. It's

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Speaker 1: the socialization. It's the feeling like, as you know, as

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Speaker 1: we know, equality for those of us with privilege can

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Speaker 1: feel very similar to oppression, and this idea that no,

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Speaker 1: we're not actually taking from us, we're not taking and redistributing,

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Speaker 1: We're we're sharing. There's plenty to go around. It's not

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Speaker 1: like there's there's there's plenty of pieces of pizza for everybody. Um,

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Speaker 1: And that's just one of the things that I think

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Speaker 1: we have to work on and that we're talking about here.

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Speaker 1: You know, what, would you say the thesis of this

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Speaker 1: book is because it has your message has evolved through

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Speaker 1: the years. Well, the reason I say we're undefining masculinity

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Speaker 1: instead of redefining it was, which was what I was

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Speaker 1: saying for years, was because I realized, in doing my

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Speaker 1: own work and looking at my own socialization, the way

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Speaker 1: that I have been brought up as a man and

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Speaker 1: my feeling of not being enough despite having and the

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Speaker 1: world telling me that I should be, is that by

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Speaker 1: redefining what it means to be a man, I would

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Speaker 1: be excluding I would be creating the same problem again,

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Speaker 1: I'd be creating a different looking box. And first of all,

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Speaker 1: who the hell am I to redefine anything. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a I'm not a scholar, I'm not a gender studies expert.

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Speaker 1: I haven't written treatises on this. I'm just I'm just

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Speaker 1: a guy trying to figure out what works and what

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Speaker 1: doesn't for me, and why I have kept hurting people

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Speaker 1: over and over again and hurt myself and I realized,

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Speaker 1: and this kind of goes back to your first question

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Speaker 1: is and what led me on the journey is that

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Speaker 1: I was tired of hurting people, and I was tired

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Speaker 1: of hurting myself. I was tired of putting on masks

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Speaker 1: and armor that I didn't know I was wearing. I

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Speaker 1: was tired of acting different based on who I was around.

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Speaker 1: I was tired of puffing up my chest when I

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Speaker 1: was around certain men that I felt insecure around or women. Um,

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Speaker 1: and that happens over and over and over again, and

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Speaker 1: I just didn't know why. I just couldn't be unapologetically

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Speaker 1: me and uh, and that led me on this journey

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Speaker 1: over time. And the thesis is to undefine it, to

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Speaker 1: make room for anybody who identifies as a man to

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Speaker 1: be allowed to feel and be a man, and to

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Speaker 1: and to get rid of all of these pressures, these

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Speaker 1: ridiculous patriarchal pressures that tell us we have to be

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Speaker 1: X enough to be this, X enough to be that,

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Speaker 1: X enough to be this, and to just remember that

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Speaker 1: that we have been created noble, that we are enough

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Speaker 1: just as we are. Well, take a short break, but

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Speaker 1: when we come back, how to be man enough amid

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Speaker 1: the Me Too movement that's right after this, you know,

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Speaker 1: you and also society has been talking about this for

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Speaker 1: a long time. You know this is not talking about this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and maybe not men, but still I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: just being in the media as long as I've been

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Speaker 1: justin and this is not necessarily a new phenomenon. And

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Speaker 1: I'm curious why more progress hasn't been made and really

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Speaker 1: investigating these sort of male archetypes and standards and pressures,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you talk about not only toxic masculinity

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Speaker 1: being a bad, misleading and toxic phraise, you talk that

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Speaker 1: the guy code and grow up hair. I'm just curious

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Speaker 1: why we haven't made more progress. And I also have

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Speaker 1: this is a two parter, and I wonder how has

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Speaker 1: kind of me too and Time's Up and this reckoning

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Speaker 1: about gender equality and also racial equality that we've seen

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Speaker 1: almost simultaneously, if that is made, made it worse in

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Speaker 1: some ways that men are gravitating towards kind of clinging

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Speaker 1: to their masculinity in a way that maybe the grip

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Speaker 1: was starting to be looser. Does that make any sense?

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Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense. I'm trying. Let me, let me

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Speaker 1: try to Katie Kirk brilliant, Katie Kirk. No, I'm not

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Speaker 1: let me try to Let me try, Let me try

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Speaker 1: to um start with the first one. What's coming to

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Speaker 1: me is if you take somebody who's in power and

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Speaker 1: you say to that person, hey, I want to redistribute

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Speaker 1: some of your power. It might be uncomfortable for a second,

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Speaker 1: but don't worry. You'll still have power. It'll just look different.

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Speaker 1: Because we live in a culture where power is um

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Speaker 1: is in such high demand, but there's so little supply,

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Speaker 1: that person is going to tense up and they're not

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Speaker 1: going to want to relinquish that power. We see it

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Speaker 1: play out over and over again. We've seen a play

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Speaker 1: out throughout history. We see it play out in elections, politics,

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Speaker 1: and it's just that's just the dynamic of our system,

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Speaker 1: and that that power is the patriarchy, and that power

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Speaker 1: benefits meant more than it would benefit women. The The

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Speaker 1: issue is that we are we are. You know, women

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Speaker 1: have been fighting for this. I mean just you used

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Speaker 1: to go back in history. I mean just just the

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Speaker 1: fact that women had to fight for the right to vote.

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Speaker 1: It's not that long ago we're talking about our our

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Speaker 1: grandparents could have touched this right and the same thing

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Speaker 1: in the fight for racial justice. We're talking about our

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Speaker 1: parents touched it. So we're just generations in to this

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Speaker 1: idea of what equality looks like. And as we know,

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Speaker 1: we learn masculinity generationally and socially and culturally. So I

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Speaker 1: go back to that quote like for those with privilege,

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Speaker 1: equality can feel like oppression. So what you have is

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Speaker 1: you have these marginalized groups of people fighting because they're

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Speaker 1: not being heard, and all the oppressors, all the all

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Speaker 1: the the in this case, men um are looking at

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Speaker 1: this and it doesn't make any sense to them because

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Speaker 1: in their mind we're making progress, and their mind it's like,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about. There's equality? That woman just

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Speaker 1: took my job, right, that's how that's how we're we

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Speaker 1: think about these types of things, and that power redistribution

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Speaker 1: feels like a power loss. The other issue is that

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Speaker 1: we I don't think we know how to talk to

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Speaker 1: each other. And you know, and look at I mean,

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Speaker 1: look at the feminist movement. And again I'm not a scholar,

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Speaker 1: and I'm clear in the way that I wrote the book.

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Speaker 1: I wrote the book from a personal perspective because there

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Speaker 1: were not there are not many books written like this

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of books about data and facts and history,

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Speaker 1: but not from a personal perspective where men can be

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Speaker 1: invited into their own story. And just even you know,

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Speaker 1: even even the evolution of feminism, I believe that feminism right,

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Speaker 1: the radical notion that women are people, that women are

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Speaker 1: human beings, um. The dismantling of a patriarchy to create

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Speaker 1: a more equitable and us framework and system for everybody,

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Speaker 1: including men, benefits men. But we take the parts of

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Speaker 1: every movement um that are the most threatening, the two

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Speaker 1: percent of people, right, the two percent of of women

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Speaker 1: who may be made up their stories, and the me

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Speaker 1: too movement, and then we use those two percent as

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Speaker 1: a way to discount the other. And we do that

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Speaker 1: throughout history, and of course throughout the feminist movement you

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Speaker 1: had you had segments who were anti men. You had

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Speaker 1: segments who were anti men, who hated and who justifiably

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Speaker 1: were angry. And so what do we do as men?

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Speaker 1: We take those two percent and we say, the feminist

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Speaker 1: movement hates us, it's bad for us. They're out there angry,

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Speaker 1: they're feminists, and all the things you hear a lot

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Speaker 1: of these people say, when in reality, the majority of feminists,

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Speaker 1: women that I know love men, MHM, want men to

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Speaker 1: be happy, want men to be joyful, don't want men

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Speaker 1: to suffer. Want there to be equality, inequity. And what

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Speaker 1: I believe men are not realizing is that the system

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Speaker 1: is not working for men. We might be looking at

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Speaker 1: the power dynamic of our system and and in some

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Speaker 1: ways we think it's good. We should fight for things,

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Speaker 1: we should want things. But the patriarchy is built on

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Speaker 1: a domination and a power grab. And what that means

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Speaker 1: is that we're actually left feeling like less than, far

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Speaker 1: more than we are feeling like we're enough. As men

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Speaker 1: were suffering collectively and we're hurting, but we don't have

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Speaker 1: the tools to know that we are hurting because nobody

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Speaker 1: we're not able to talk to anybody about it. We

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Speaker 1: don't even know that we're hurting. How many how much

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Speaker 1: room is there at the top, there's room for a

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Speaker 1: couple of people, but the rest of us. Men are

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Speaker 1: not at the top. Men men are are working nine

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Speaker 1: to five jobs that they hate. They're breaking their acts,

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Speaker 1: they're trying to provide and protect their family. They're doing

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Speaker 1: all of these things they've been told that they must

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Speaker 1: do in order to feel like a man at the

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Speaker 1: cost of their at the cost of their soul, the

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Speaker 1: cost of their spirituality, the cost of their joy and

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Speaker 1: their happiness. And therefore and then are hurting other people

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Speaker 1: in their lives. They're hurting the women in their lives.

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Speaker 1: And when we're trying and we're trying to gain power

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Speaker 1: and we can't gain power over men, and we don't

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Speaker 1: feel like we're enough in our jobs or wherever we are,

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Speaker 1: where do we gain power, gain power in our interpersonal lives,

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Speaker 1: gain power over the women in our lives because maybe

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Speaker 1: we're physically stronger. We gain power over marginalized groups. And

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Speaker 1: and again, so if you you kind of take that

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Speaker 1: whole picture and you look at that, and then you understand, well,

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Speaker 1: men don't know how to take feedback. We don't. We

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Speaker 1: haven't been taught how to take feedback. We've been taught

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Speaker 1: that we have to defend ourselves. We have been taught

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Speaker 1: we have to put on our armor, that we have

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Speaker 1: to be right. We can't ask for directions. So so

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Speaker 1: if if a movement is trying to change things and

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Speaker 1: we're saying this isn't working, I mean, just look at

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Speaker 1: the not all men thing, right, we can't even hear

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Speaker 1: feedback that the majority of women don't feel safe. They don't.

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Speaker 1: It's not that they don't feel safe around other women.

400
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Speaker 1: Women aren't doing the raping and the killing. Women aren't doing.

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Speaker 1: Women aren't aren't sexually assaulting other women. Men are. But

402
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Speaker 1: yet we have to defend ourselves and say, not all men.

403
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Speaker 1: There's no space for growth, there's no space for any

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Speaker 1: of it because men feel like they're being attacked when

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Speaker 1: in reality they're not, Which is why the reason I

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Speaker 1: don't think there's been progresses because we feel like powers

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Speaker 1: being taken away from us. We feel like we're bad,

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Speaker 1: we're wrong, we're not good. Well, clearly we just you know,

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Speaker 1: we're just terrible people, that's like, And we become so fragile,

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Speaker 1: or male egos are so fragile because that's what the

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Speaker 1: patriarchy has done. It makes us so that our masculinity

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Speaker 1: can be taken from us, as if there's such thing

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Speaker 1: as emasculation, as if this is a right that can

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Speaker 1: be taken away. And that's not how it works. Femininity

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Speaker 1: can't be taken away. Do you think men have found

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Speaker 1: me too? And time's up? And this reckoning about sexual

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Speaker 1: harassment and gender equality. Uh, similarly threatening do they have

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Speaker 1: they kind of dug in their heels as a result

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Speaker 1: of it. What have you seen on the landscape at

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Speaker 1: because of that? Yeah, this is the scary part is

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Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons why I wrote the book

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Speaker 1: is because look, you were getting our information now from

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Speaker 1: places we want to get our information. We get our news,

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Speaker 1: we get we were educated by people that we agree with.

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Speaker 1: So we're living in these silos of of misinformation and

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Speaker 1: you see it everywhere. And unfortunately, I think the Me

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Speaker 1: Too movement um scared a lot of men because I

428
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: don't know one man who hasn't treated a woman like

429
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: an object. I don't know one man who, over the

430
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: course of his life, uh, in this patriarchal system where

431
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: he must prove his masculinity, I didn't do so at

432
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: the expensive women. And so when you have a movement

433
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: like me Too, which thank god it exists, because that

434
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: again that first that that pendulum swing is really uncomfortable,

435
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: because it has to be when you have a movement

436
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: like me to. What it brings to the surface is

437
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: all the things we've all done as men that that

438
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 1: we're embarrassed of or not proud of. And what's scary

439
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: about the me too movement for men is that then

440
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: suddenly that can become public. So I looked around and

441
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: I saw men everywhere like, okay, am I next? Am

442
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: I next? Because we've all done something we're not proud of,

443
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: for the sake of our masculinity, for the sake of

444
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: wanting to be accepted, for the sake of wanting to

445
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: gain power, because we're taught from such a young age,

446
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: we have to. So unfortunately, what do you I heard

447
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: what everybody else heard, which is I can't hire a

448
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 1: female system. And I'm saying why, Well, you know, because

449
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean if I say the wrong thing,

450
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: or what if I could hug her? But there's no

451
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: so men didn't have the vocabulary. The answer is not

452
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: to not hire a female assistant. The answer is to

453
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: ask for permission. If you is, can I give you

454
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: a hug? The answer is to to communicate. The answer

455
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: is to to to like, look at your behavior, right,

456
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: But we don't want to change things because changes on comfortable.

457
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: So do you think it stopped progress when it comes

458
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: to men of following and looking at at how do

459
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 1: you think it's it's actually encouraged. I think it helped.

460
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: It's like the day after you go to the gym,

461
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: you're working out. The day after you go to the gym,

462
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: sometimes two days later you're really sore, you can't move.

463
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: But the soreness is good. The soreness means your your

464
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: muscle fibers, tour blood is filling up those injuries, and

465
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: as they're forming and coming back together, they're they're coming

466
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: back together stronger. And so I look at it as

467
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: we're a couple of days out of the gym, and

468
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: the Me Too movement was necessary, it was progress. It

469
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: was painful on both sides. I mean the fact that

470
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: women had to relive their traumas over and over and

471
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: over again. I had so many conversations with people that

472
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: I love who were sharing their stories, but in sharing

473
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: their stories, they were re traumatizing themselves for what happened.

474
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: So there's healing that happens, and there's also re traumatization

475
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: because it has to happen. And they and they did

476
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: it because it was a part. It was necessary. But

477
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: we're in the we're two days out and we're sore,

478
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: but it will benefit us because what's happened is that

479
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: men are thinking. And even if there are there's a

480
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: group of men who have put up their shields and

481
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: are ready for battle, there's always going to be those

482
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: groups that are resistant to change. When we come back

483
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: porn addiction. How Justin was able to share even his

484
00:29:51,920 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: deepest insecurities for all to read. I want to talk

485
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: to you two about your personal story, because so much

486
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: of this is you know, it is a manifesto, but

487
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: it's a deeply personal story. And you talk about body issues,

488
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: relationship issues, pornography issues, which was something that affected you

489
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: when you were just ten years old. Um, and so

490
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: were these things all really difficult to be honest about?

491
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: I mean, did you have to kind of put aside

492
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: any trepidation or any embarrassment or inhibition I guess to

493
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: kind of like, hey, I mean and and and maybe

494
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: talk about how you were able to expose that side

495
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: of you and what that side of you was justin too. Well, yeah, Katie,

496
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: it was. It's terrible because these are things that you

497
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: talked about, Araby. But the problem is, and even with

498
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: my clothes, my best guy friends, is that we struggle

499
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: being truly vulnerable with each other. And I would say

500
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: I have a pretty progressive group of male friends, just

501
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: the fact that we're willing to check in with each other,

502
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: ask how our hearts are, have these conversations. But there's

503
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: so many times we've left individually, and I've left my

504
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: other friends feeling worse about myself because I felt alone.

505
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: Because even in my quote unquote progressive group of friends

506
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: of male friends, people struggle with sharing their vulnerability, sharing

507
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: the parts of them that aren't working, sharing the sharing

508
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: their addictions or whatever it is, their fears. Because we

509
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: have to. It's like a conscious unlearning unpacking in real time.

510
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: It's like literally taking off your were and saying it's

511
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: okay if I'm shot. Because we've been it's been reinforced

512
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: that we're not allowed to share. We're not allowed to

513
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: tell another man something that could be used against us

514
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: because we, no matter how we slice it, we think

515
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: that that's going to make us less then him, maybe

516
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: we won't be as valuable to the group. So all

517
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: of that was underneath everything that I wrote, and I

518
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: just kept thinking about that guy me, who desperately needed

519
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: to hear that he wasn't the only person suffering, who

520
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: desperately needed to hear that he wasn't alone who desperately

521
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: needed to hear that he's battled whatever X issue, porn,

522
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: body image, he doesn't feel like he's enough in whatever area.

523
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: And that was what gave me the strength to keep

524
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: doing it. But but I did not plan on writing

525
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: the book this way. It was through the writing process.

526
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: I would start writing and then suddenly these stories would

527
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: come out. And I remember what happened to me when

528
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: I was ten, and as I was writing, I was

529
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: connecting the dot back to my struggle as a thirty

530
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: year old and I and in the writing process, I

531
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: recognized that there you can't separate the two things and

532
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: they're all a part of the same thing. So it

533
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: was necessary, but it was it was terrifying because the

534
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: fact that the fact remains, like, yeah, all of this

535
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: can be used against me, but I also hate pedestals

536
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: and the performative wokeness thing doesn't serve anybody. I mean,

537
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: I just had a conversation with a dear friend of

538
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: mine who told me that one of the most abusive

539
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: men that she's ever dated wore a this is what

540
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: a feminist looks like t shirt And this is why

541
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: people are sick. This is why people don't like religion.

542
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: This is why people don't like you know, wokeness or

543
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: woke culture and all this stuff, because you have you

544
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: have um actions that differ from words, and the behind

545
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: faith were told let deeds, not words be your adorning.

546
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: True faith is an abundance of deeds in a fewness

547
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 1: of words. And that's where we gotta get to. Where

548
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: it's about, Okay, take me off the platform. This platform. Sure,

549
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 1: I'm sharing these things, but that doesn't that's how low

550
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: the bar is. Like the bar is that low that

551
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: a man can talk about some of these things and

552
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: suddenly be praised. Take me off. I don't need to

553
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: be praised. What I need is for other men to

554
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: see themselves in my story and start to have their

555
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 1: actions impacted, start to treat the people in their lives differently,

556
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: starting with themselves. What do we do though, you know,

557
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: justin we're all products of our cultural conditioning. And I

558
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: did a whole podcast on violent porn, which is so

559
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: scary because kids are being a exposed to this at

560
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: a very early age, and it's about you know, sex

561
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: and how this is translating into intimacy, and it is

562
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: so scary how easily accessible it is and I know

563
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: that you were exposed to it when you were just

564
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: ten years old, and what what do we do about that?

565
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: Because I think also there's a huge vacuum, and it's

566
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: that it's being filled with in many cases, violent porn.

567
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: It's a what twelve billion dollar annual industry, UM, and

568
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do about it. I think

569
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: it's a really large question. I think again we have

570
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: to first remember that it's an industry. An industry wants

571
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: to sell you something. What's interesting about the porn industry

572
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: is that very similar to um, the tech industry, it's

573
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: about users, users, right, So they're acquiring the users you

574
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: use porn. And I think the biggest problem we have

575
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: is a lack of education and a lot of that UM,

576
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 1: A lot of that comes from us not being willing

577
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: to talk about one of the most basic human things

578
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 1: in existence, because as we've made it taboo. Think about

579
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: think about two of the things that the most taboo

580
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: in our culture to talk about death and sex. But

581
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: yet we need sex to procreate, and we all were

582
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: going to die, all of us are. That's why I

583
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: spent the last ten years doing my last days, which

584
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: is how we first met, right and telling the stories

585
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: of people who were dying to help us learn how

586
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: to live. Because we can't run away from it. It's

587
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: going to happen. So why are we running away from sex?

588
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: I am writing this book was transported back being ten

589
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: and learning about my body, not from my parents, kind

590
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: of from other boys, but more than anything, from porn.

591
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: If we're embarrassed to talk about it, we're embarrassed to

592
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: talk to our kids about it. If we don't tell

593
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: our boys that their bodies are gonna changing, they're gonna

594
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: start getting erections that they can't control. That's gonna pop

595
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: up everywhere. They're gonna start like lusting after like things,

596
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: they're gonna start wanting. You know, if we don't prepare

597
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: them for that, where are they going to go? And

598
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: if we then associate those things with shame, then their

599
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: sexuality becomes shameful and they only they look for it

600
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: in the dark, They look for it alone, and what

601
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: and then we can't control what they watch and as

602
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: we know, Look, there was a study that was done

603
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: I put it in the book where they they looked

604
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: at the brains of people that were while they were

605
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: watching porn, and what they found was that the part

606
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: of the brain that lit up while someone was watching

607
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: porn was the part of the brain that associated the

608
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: images with objects, not people. So if you think about like, yeah,

609
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 1: you mix in violence, but you also make in the

610
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: fact that you're watching objects, if you're a head or

611
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: sexual manner watching women, the woman is an object. You

612
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: compound that with how we're taught, how we are taught

613
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: to talk about women, how we get a girl possession

614
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: possessive objects, how women are less than in our vocabulary.

615
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: Being a girl means is synonymous with being weak. And

616
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: then you put all that together. And of course, of

617
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: course there's a correlation between rape culture and violence and

618
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: sex and porn because that's the system that we have.

619
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: So what the solution, I think is the first step

620
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: is we have to be willing to talk to young

621
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: people about up their bodies and not be embarrassed or ashamed.

622
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: We have to be willing to explain that sex is

623
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 1: necessary for human procreation in many ways, and that it's

624
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: not a bad thing, it's not a shameful thing. Let's

625
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: put some guide, let's put some really rules around it.

626
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,439
Speaker 1: Let's teach our let's teach boys at an early age

627
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: what consent looks like, because I can tell you I

628
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: didn't learn consent. Nobody had the conversation with me. What

629
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: did I think consent was growing up? Well, well, important

630
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: no means yes, no, no, no no, no no, It just

631
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: means you keep trying. And what do the boys tell us? Right,

632
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: how many nose gets s? This is this is the culture.

633
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: So of course, of course women don't feel safe. Of

634
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 1: course one in four one in five women are going

635
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: to be raped in their lifetime because this is what

636
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: we're teaching her boys how to do primarily through porn.

637
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: Primarily through porn, and through the socialization of what it

638
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: means to be a man through the boys, the getting

639
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: of women, the conquering right, those types of things, the

640
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: power dominance, the power struggle. If we can't get powers

641
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: in one place, we've got to get power somewhere else.

642
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 1: And then, of course porn is a lot of porn

643
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: is extremely violent, and we learned about that. We think

644
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: women want that, but nobody's ever like if if as

645
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: boys we were to ask women. And also, let's just

646
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: be clear, women are also socialized in the same way,

647
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: so we're not like not It's not like boys are

648
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: socialized in this vacuum. Women and men are socialized in

649
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: the same way, and there's a lot of un learning

650
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: on both sides that has to happen. And women also

651
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: watch porn, and in some ways, I want to be

652
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: very clear, I'm not calling out the whole porn industry,

653
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 1: because I know I know a lot of folks who

654
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,919
Speaker 1: have been oppressed in their life is queer and gay

655
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: folks who then have seen that for the first time

656
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: and felt like they weren't alone too so, But at

657
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's an industry, and I

658
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: do believe it's doing farm more harm than good. You

659
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: also dig into your own experience with racism and your

660
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: own reality of your racism, and I'm curious how hard

661
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: that was, because that, again, justin is unlearning certain attitudes

662
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 1: and stereotypes that I think subconsciously and consciously you're kind

663
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 1: of promoted and fed to us from a very young age.

664
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: Who well, yeah, that one was really hard. I really

665
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: had to look at my own behavior. And as I

666
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: was writing the book, of course, it was over the

667
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: pandemic and George Floyd was murdered and this again was

668
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: just another example, but this time it was nine minutes

669
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 1: and it was caught on video, and it's struck different

670
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,240
Speaker 1: as it did for a lot of white folks. And

671
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: um and I just went back and I remembered all

672
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 1: of the little conversations I've had with my black friends

673
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: and the defensiveness and my not willing to advocate as

674
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: much as I've advocated for gender equality and sexism, which

675
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: showed me that I was more defensive about it. That's

676
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: all it did, was it showed me, like, oh, why

677
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't I fight is hard for the elimination of racial

678
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: prejudice as I do for the equality of women and men.

679
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: There's something, there's a there's something missing, especially because it's

680
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: growing up as a be high I'm told that you

681
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: can't separate these two things and justices and justice, like

682
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: you know, racial prejudice is, if anything, the most persistent

683
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: evil in the world. Um and uh. And I just

684
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: had to dig in and I had to look at it.

685
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: And I had asked myself, why why am I offensive

686
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: about it? What is it about? What is it about

687
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: this subject that is more uncomfortable for me and maybe

688
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: for other white folks. And I hadn't seen the example

689
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: of other people really going into detail about ways that

690
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: they've been raisist, And I think I think everyone's afraid

691
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: of cancel culture maybe a little bit and being held accountable.

692
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: But if you look at that generally, that's when somebody

693
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: is not willing to look at their stuff. It's not

694
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,240
Speaker 1: willing to bring themselves off of the quote unquote pedestal.

695
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: And how can we learn, like if this is for

696
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: white folks, how can how can we white folks learn

697
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: if we don't have that example. If I don't know

698
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: the ways that Katie Kirk is messed up. I looked

699
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 1: up to Katie Kirk, Well, how is Katie Kirk failed

700
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: in this way? Well, one, it'll make me feel better,

701
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 1: but too, I can learn from your mistakes. And I

702
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 1: wasn't seeing that anywhere. I wasn't seeing that on Instagram post.

703
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: I wasn't seeing anybody talk willingly, like willingly about ways

704
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: that they have messed up and not and and been

705
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 1: racist or mistreated black folks or or been a bad friend.

706
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: And so I then going through process it was also

707
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: healing for me. I share a story about my friend

708
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: Kay and I share one of my best friends, Jamie

709
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: um and and and there's a lot more conversations than

710
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: these and I did it because I want other white

711
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: folks to know that it doesn't make them a racist

712
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: or a bad person to have been brought up in

713
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: a system that, without realizing it, um awards those of

714
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: us that look a certain way differently, gives us a

715
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: head start, if you will. And of course we're going

716
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: to say things that are dumb and we're gonna hurt people,

717
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: but we have to recognize that and then we can

718
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: move forward. And we have to apologize for it and

719
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: come to terms with it. And not everybody's gonna want

720
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: accept our polpology and that's okay too. So it was

721
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: really hard. I'm great full I did it. It's one

722
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: of my favorite pieces of feedback has been from white

723
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: folks who say that chapter changed their perspective on the movement,

724
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: because again, just like the fragile male ego, we have

725
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,959
Speaker 1: the fragile white ego. You know, as a dad and

726
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 1: as someone who writes a lot about experience that you

727
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 1: had as a younger man, what can we start doing

728
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: for this next generation. I feel like they're so far

729
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: ahead of us. I mean, you're are you a millennial

730
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: justin or you like a I'm considered an old millennial,

731
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: an old I'm a geriatric millennial, and I'm a young

732
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: baby boomer. You're a baby baby boomer. I'm an old millennial.

733
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 1: I think forties the cut off. Now I'm thirty seven,

734
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 1: so you've got I don't. I'm not gonna well, I

735
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: will say I'm sixty four. And what what can be

736
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: done to help help It's all about the ring, right, honey.

737
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 1: What can be done to to help your kids and

738
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: my kids? And you know, we talked about the suicide

739
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,959
Speaker 1: rate being so high. I think the average person who

740
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: takes their own life is a year old male. And

741
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: and how can we start shifting things so attitudes change

742
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: and behavior changes. I think it starts. It starts very young.

743
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: I think it starts in our parenting. Honestly, um, I

744
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: go back to that idea of being imperfect, which is

745
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: I think that's where perfection lies. And you know, raising

746
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:44,439
Speaker 1: our kids to recognize their own value, their own worth,

747
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: their own enoughness to not seek it externally. You know.

748
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: One of the ways I'm in this day and age, well,

749
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: one of the reasons, you know, I'm thinking about how

750
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: the world's going to be socializing my daughter and my son,

751
00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: and how the world is going to be telling my

752
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: daughter that she has to be one thing and how

753
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: my son has to be another thing. Emily and I

754
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: have been saying, Okay, well, how do we how do

755
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: we start to reverse that damage early on and to

756
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: build strong foundations. And so we teach our daughter at

757
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: home the opposite, that she can take up all the

758
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: space she wants, that she can be loud, that she

759
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: can take physical risks, that she can be brave and

760
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: strong and tough, um at the same time not not

761
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: having her kill off the sensitive parts of herselves like

762
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: we make boys do, as she can be a full

763
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: human being. And we teach our boy that it's okay

764
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: to ask questions, that it's okay to be sensitive, that

765
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: it's okay to cry, that it's okay to ask for

766
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: help when he's hurting, to express himself, that it's also

767
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: okay to not take physical risks, that it's okay we

768
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: gotta be mindful of the space that he takes up,

769
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: because the world is going to tell him he can

770
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,240
Speaker 1: take up as much as he wants. So that's one way,

771
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: that's one thing that we're doing while also just allowing

772
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: them to be who they are and not trying to

773
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: change them. So one way is I think the way

774
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: we're intentionally raising our children. Um. The other way is

775
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: as parents, by modeling the behavior we want our children

776
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: to grow up accepting. And oftentimes as parents, we try

777
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 1: to hide our imperfections. We try to hide our flaws,

778
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: We try to be superheroes, when in reality, all we're

779
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: doing is setting our kids up for failure, for expectations

780
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: that will never be men and what are expectations, They're

781
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: just planned disappointments. So when we when we're flawed, when

782
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: we're human, when we cry, when we're angry, when we

783
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: use that as teaching opportunities to let them know that

784
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: we are flawed and imperfect. Because the more that we

785
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: can raise our children to recognize their own enoughness, the

786
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: more they're going to not have to seek their validation

787
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: by making someone else feel like they're not enough. The

788
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 1: other part of youre, a part of this whole thing

789
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 1: is that we have to learn to see each other.

790
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 1: We have to see each other and listen to each other,

791
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: even when we're listening two things that maybe are uncomfortable.

792
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: We can't be so fragile in our identities and so

793
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: attached to our beliefs in our politics that it prevents

794
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: us from seeing another segment of the population, from seeing

795
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: our own family members. We have to be open, we

796
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: have to be willing to learn to be curious. That

797
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: is the thing that's going to I think solve more

798
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: than anything, is helping people realize that they are not

799
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: their faults. They're not there insecurities, they are not their

800
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: subconscious racist behavior. They are not their sexist behavior doesn't

801
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 1: make there's no like, there's no there's no perfect person.

802
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 1: There's no good or bad except that, which makes it so.

803
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: We're just people, all of us trying to figure out

804
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: what the hell we're doing on this floating rock, knowing

805
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: we only have a limited amount of time on this earth,

806
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: and trying to be happy and and create a world

807
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: that is sustainable that our children can inherit. None of

808
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: us know, and we're surviving. We're trying to put roof

809
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: keep roofs on our heads. And I think that if

810
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 1: we can just have empathy for each other, and again

811
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: I recognize it's easy to say in the position of

812
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: privilege that I'm in, but if we can just go

813
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: back to having empathy for each other, not ampathy, empathy

814
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 1: then we'll start to see each other and recognize our

815
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: enoughness as that as we are, and little by little

816
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: and day by day, things will improve. And that's kind

817
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: of all I got. I mean, we could go deeper

818
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: and deeper and deeper, but that's great. And I know

819
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: you're writing books to kind of address this, so people

820
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: can expand their minds kids at an early age and

821
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: stop before it's too late, honestly, And is it too late?

822
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I've I've had it again. My neighbor is

823
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: eight five years old, saw me on one of the

824
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: Today Show or whatever and asked if you could read

825
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 1: the book, and I gave him a signed copy and

826
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,919
Speaker 1: telling me how much he's learning. I'm hearing from guys

827
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: in their sixties and seventies saying, Wow, this is the

828
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 1: this is the first time I'm seeing myself. I've read

829
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: all that, I've read other masculinity books, but nobody ever

830
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: talked about their own problems. And I see my problem.

831
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: I see my stuff in yours, and and that's what

832
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: it comes down to. Is it ever too late? I

833
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't think it is. My dad see learning, evolving, growing,

834
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: having conversations he's never had before that were never modeled

835
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: for him. I believe so much in our capacity as

836
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: human beings to remember to remember our innate worthiness, our goodness,

837
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: our humanity. I don't think it's ever too late. Thank

838
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: you to Justin Baldoni, such a nice guy. His book

839
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: is called Man Enough, Undefining My Masculinity. Oh and just

840
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: to heads up, dear listeners, my memoir Going There is

841
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: coming out on Octobers, and I'll be heading on a

842
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: national book tour like in person fingers crossed. To find

843
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: out when and where I'm headed, and to get your tickets,

844
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: check out ticketmaster dot com slash Going There. So I

845
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: hope to see you guys on the road on the

846
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: next installment of my Summer book series. When you play

847
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: a character for seven years, it can be hard to

848
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: let her go. She was so so embedded under my

849
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: skin still when I would see that scene or think

850
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:55,240
Speaker 1: of that scene tear up. Julianna Marghalie's on Alicia Floriic

851
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,919
Speaker 1: and the memoir she wrote after The Good Wife came

852
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: to an end. I wanted to start exploring who I

853
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: was and not just this person running into circles trying

854
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Speaker 1: to make it everything work. That's next week on Next Question.

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Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Media and Katie currk Media. The executive producers Army,

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Speaker 1: Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen.

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Speaker 1: Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The

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Speaker 1: show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more

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Speaker 1: information about today's episode, or to sign up for my

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Speaker 1: morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie Currek dot com.

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Speaker 1: You can also find me at Katie Curic on Instagram

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Speaker 1: and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,