1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,519
Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatrati. This week Canada's climate compromise.

2
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,320
Speaker 1: Throughout the year, we've had many guests on the podcast

3
00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,640
Speaker 1: talk about the unraveling of climate policies in the US,

4
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,920
Speaker 1: but when it came to the northern neighbor, Canada, there

5
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,760
Speaker 1: was more hope. In April, Canadians elected Marc Corney as

6
00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,519
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister, who had resigned as the United Nations

7
00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,720
Speaker 1: Special Envoy on Climate Action and Finance to take up

8
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,720
Speaker 1: the political role. He is someone who people say knows

9
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,600
Speaker 1: the climate challenge better than any world leader in power.

10
00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,040
Speaker 1: But now things are starting to look dire in Canada too.

11
00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,160
Speaker 1: At the end of November, Karnee signed a memorandum of

12
00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 1: understanding with the province of Alberta, the largest oil producing

13
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: province in the country, that has angered many climate advocates.

14
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,920
Speaker 1: The deal promises federal support for a new pipeline from

15
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,120
Speaker 1: Alberta to British Columbia onto Canada's west coast. It opens

16
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,640
Speaker 1: the door to lifting a tanker ban and exempts Alberta

17
00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,080
Speaker 1: from clean power regulations in exchange for maybe some stricter

18
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,479
Speaker 1: industrial carbon pricing. It also extends tax credits for using

19
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,240
Speaker 1: carbon capture to extract more oil. The MoU essentially offers

20
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,800
Speaker 1: to undo a host of climate regulations that have been

21
00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,400
Speaker 1: put in place over the last decade, and as a result,

22
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,959
Speaker 1: Stephen Gibo, who served as Trudeau's Environment Minister and was

23
00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,840
Speaker 1: key to putting many of these policies in place, has

24
00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,920
Speaker 1: resigned from Carney's cabinet, where he was serving as Minister

25
00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:47,960
Speaker 1: of Canadian Identity and Culture.

26
00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 2: I think that on climate change we're going in the

27
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:57,480
Speaker 2: wrong direction, and I'm hoping that me leaving cabinet will

28
00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,400
Speaker 2: force some discussion as to how we've been doing that

29
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:03,920
Speaker 2: since the beginning of the year.

30
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,800
Speaker 1: Gibo came to politics after a lifetime of environmental activism.

31
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,640
Speaker 1: He served as an Environment minister from twenty twenty one

32
00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,200
Speaker 1: to twenty twenty five, and of course he had to

33
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,680
Speaker 1: make many compromises, but clearly the Alberta deal was one

34
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,520
Speaker 1: step too far. I wanted to get him on the

35
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,760
Speaker 1: pod and ask him, is this the end of Canada's

36
00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:32,560
Speaker 1: climate strategy? Welcome to the show, Steven, Thank you exce.

37
00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:34,920
Speaker 1: Now there's a lot we have to talk about on

38
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,880
Speaker 1: Canada's climate policies, but I want to start with an

39
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,440
Speaker 1: understanding of how you came to do what you do

40
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,080
Speaker 1: because you've spent almost all of your life fighting for

41
00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,040
Speaker 1: the environment, as early as five years of age, I understand,

42
00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 1: and more recently, in two thousand and one you climbed

43
00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 1: the Centare in Toronto as part of a Greenpeace protest.

44
00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:02,320
Speaker 1: Idealism powers the climate movement, but your efforts go much

45
00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,640
Speaker 1: further than most climate activists that I know. And yet

46
00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,200
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, for some reason, you chose to enter politics,

47
00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,919
Speaker 1: and it's a place where idealism dies and compromises are necessary.

48
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,200
Speaker 1: Why did you think that was a good idea.

49
00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,680
Speaker 2: I don't know that I would say that idealism dies

50
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:27,000
Speaker 2: in politics, but it's certainly they're challenged. After twenty five

51
00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,040
Speaker 2: years give or taken the environmental movement, I felt it

52
00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,839
Speaker 2: was time for me to try and continue my activism,

53
00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,560
Speaker 2: but in a different form. I mean, I had been

54
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 2: so disappointed by many of my leaders in Canada that

55
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,200
Speaker 2: I figured, you know, if I went in politics, and

56
00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,400
Speaker 2: if if I ever made it to the cabinet, there's

57
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,560
Speaker 2: no way I could be worse than what I had seen.

58
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 2: My assessment was that there's only one way, and it

59
00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:58,000
Speaker 2: was up. So that was more or less what prompted

60
00:03:58,040 --> 00:03:59,080
Speaker 2: my decision.

61
00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,920
Speaker 1: And then you end up up serving as Environment Minister

62
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 1: under former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau from twenty twenty one

63
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,240
Speaker 1: to twenty twenty five earlier this year, and so you

64
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 1: had to make many compromises then, including when you approved

65
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,640
Speaker 1: an offshore oil extraction project under Trudeau. Now, the Canadian

66
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 1: economy today is under assault from the US, its biggest

67
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,919
Speaker 1: trading partner, and Prime Minister mcconnie has come under increasing

68
00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,839
Speaker 1: criticism for the compromises he seems to be making on

69
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:33,280
Speaker 1: climate policy in order to prioritize stabilizing the Canadian economy.

70
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,560
Speaker 1: So in your resignation letter you recognize that the job

71
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,880
Speaker 1: of a prime minister is a tough balancing act. But

72
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 1: finally you ran out of row what tipped the scales

73
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:48,039
Speaker 1: for you?

74
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,440
Speaker 2: So you're right. I resigned last week. As a cabinet minister.

75
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 2: In the British parliamentary system like ours, when you're a

76
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,279
Speaker 2: member of a cabinet, you have to support all of

77
00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,280
Speaker 2: the decisions, all of the positions of the government. They

78
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:10,080
Speaker 2: can be there's cabinet solidarity, they can be no dissension publicly.

79
00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,040
Speaker 2: Obviously we're inside the cabinet room, people have different points

80
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,320
Speaker 2: of view and that's where that's where dissension or disagreement

81
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,960
Speaker 2: can be expressed. But outside of the cabinet room, everyone

82
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,200
Speaker 2: has to be in solidarity with decisions that are made.

83
00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,000
Speaker 2: The Prime Minister signed a memorandum of understanding with the

84
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 2: Premier of Alberta, our largest oil producer in Canada, and

85
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,200
Speaker 2: I felt that the MoU was about many things. So

86
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,760
Speaker 2: we have a federal pricing system that allows our provinces

87
00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,640
Speaker 2: some national government to have their own pricing mechanisms. Some

88
00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,720
Speaker 2: do pricing, some do cap and trade, and they can

89
00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 2: do that as long as they meet a federal benchmark,

90
00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,400
Speaker 2: a federal standard for pricing, and that goes up by

91
00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,880
Speaker 2: fifteen dollars every year, worth ninety five dollars now will

92
00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:03,200
Speaker 2: be one hundred and seventy dollars a ton of coto

93
00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,600
Speaker 2: equivalent admitted by by twenty thirty. Alberta's been out of

94
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,640
Speaker 2: compliance now for some months. They have weakened their their

95
00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,799
Speaker 2: system and part of the agreement was that they would

96
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,719
Speaker 2: they would beef up their system. We would work the

97
00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,160
Speaker 2: federal government would work with the province to help a

98
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,080
Speaker 2: to help me a project A large project called the

99
00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,640
Speaker 2: Pathways Project, which is which is an association of a

100
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,159
Speaker 2: number of oil sands producers that want to put together

101
00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,320
Speaker 2: this probably the world's largest carbon captured storage project. And

102
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,280
Speaker 2: the third thing that the MoU, the main elements of

103
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 2: the MoU, was that the federal government was going to

104
00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,880
Speaker 2: start a discussion with Alberta to build a new oil pipeline.

105
00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,200
Speaker 2: The agreement is a bit vague, but most likely to

106
00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,520
Speaker 2: the to our west coast. I was willing to as

107
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,800
Speaker 2: a Cabinet minister, I was willing to stay around the

108
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,000
Speaker 2: table and have those conversations, even on the pipeline, because frankly,

109
00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,799
Speaker 2: I don't believe that a pipeline is going to be built,

110
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:11,880
Speaker 2: largely for economical reasons. There's no proponent for a pipeline

111
00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 2: to the South Keystone. There's no proponent for a pipeline

112
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,200
Speaker 2: have been talked about going to Manitoba in Central Canada,

113
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,000
Speaker 2: and no proponent for a western pipeline either. There is

114
00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,800
Speaker 2: strong resistance from the province west of Alberta, British Columbia

115
00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,560
Speaker 2: and indigenous nations, especially coastal First nations around there are

116
00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 2: some of them I know really well because I worked

117
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,800
Speaker 2: on a very large conservation projects, with many of those

118
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,360
Speaker 2: nations an ocean conservation project. So I was willing to

119
00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,640
Speaker 2: have those conversations. But then as part of the memorandum

120
00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:50,480
Speaker 2: of understanding, the federal government was willing to concede a

121
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,920
Speaker 2: number of federal climate policies in order to please Alberta.

122
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 2: So when I was in Environment Minister, I tabled draft

123
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 2: regulations to put a cap on the emissions of oil

124
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,920
Speaker 2: and gas in the oil and gas sector in Canada.

125
00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 2: Your listeners have to understand that fighting climate change is complicated.

126
00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 2: I have never had a conversation with a minister of

127
00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 2: the environment somewhere who stole me. It was easy. Of course,

128
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 2: it is particularly difficult in Canada because we're a federation

129
00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,840
Speaker 2: and the federal government doesn't control the use of natural resources.

130
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,120
Speaker 2: This is solely, as per our constitution, solely in the

131
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,000
Speaker 2: hands of our provinces. So when I was Environment Minister,

132
00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,480
Speaker 2: I could not tell a province you have to stop

133
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,679
Speaker 2: using or reduced the exploitation of any natural resources. So

134
00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,240
Speaker 2: what I did is I put in place measures that

135
00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,280
Speaker 2: would tackle pollution. Because there was a big case that

136
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,240
Speaker 2: went all the way to Supreme Court on carbon pricing,

137
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:50,040
Speaker 2: we were challenged by many provinces when we introduced our

138
00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 2: federal pricing mechanism and the Supreme Court said the federal

139
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,280
Speaker 2: government can't do that. So based on that, we figured

140
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,440
Speaker 2: that if we did I write our regulations correctly and

141
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:06,360
Speaker 2: we went after the pollution every time, we would probably okay.

142
00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,199
Speaker 2: We'd be okay to in terms of being challenged in

143
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:10,679
Speaker 2: front of the courts, because everything I did as a

144
00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,440
Speaker 2: environment minister was challenged. The clean few regulations were challenged,

145
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,959
Speaker 2: a co electricity regulations were challenged, a plastic ban was challenged,

146
00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,400
Speaker 2: carbon pricing was challenged. Everything was challenged by one or

147
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,960
Speaker 2: many of our provinces, depending on the initiative. So the

148
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,359
Speaker 2: oil and gas emissions cap, the aim was that regardless

149
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,760
Speaker 2: of what happens to production in Canada to oil and

150
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 2: gas production, emissions will have to go down over time.

151
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,240
Speaker 2: That was being compromised. In this memorandum of understanding. They

152
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,400
Speaker 2: were saying, we'll get rid of that. The clean Electricity regulation,

153
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,240
Speaker 2: which is a key, probably one of the most important

154
00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 2: thing I did as an environment minister to ensure that

155
00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:56,880
Speaker 2: we decarbonize our grid. Canada's grid is already pretty clean,

156
00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:03,680
Speaker 2: about eighty two percent, none emitting and it has been

157
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,199
Speaker 2: like a success. Like over the last twenty years, emissions

158
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,760
Speaker 2: have gone down fifty percent in the electricity sector in Canada,

159
00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 2: largely because we're moving out of coal. It is still

160
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,400
Speaker 2: being used in some parts of Canada though, but the

161
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,360
Speaker 2: projections was that a number of provinces we're going to

162
00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,120
Speaker 2: make a big play for natural gas and that the

163
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,000
Speaker 2: emissions from that sector we're going to start rising again.

164
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,720
Speaker 2: And if you want to decarbonize your economy, your society,

165
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,679
Speaker 2: and you have more and more electric transportation, more industries

166
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 2: going to electricity, buildings using electricity instead of natural gas,

167
00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,920
Speaker 2: then the core of that strategy has to be your grid,

168
00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,320
Speaker 2: your electricity production. That was also being compromised in this

169
00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:50,520
Speaker 2: MoU And there is nothing in that that shows us

170
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:55,319
Speaker 2: how we can continue moving forward on fighting climate change

171
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,720
Speaker 2: in Canada. Like what is being announced or what has

172
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,920
Speaker 2: been announced, there's no way Canada can meet it's twenty

173
00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:07,760
Speaker 2: thirty even it's twenty thirty five climate change objectives, and frankly,

174
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:13,600
Speaker 2: I doubt that we could even be carbon neutral by

175
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,760
Speaker 2: twenty fifty with what was announced. So for me, you know,

176
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,559
Speaker 2: as a cabinet minister, you have this responsibility of being

177
00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,160
Speaker 2: a solid air of the decisions that were made. But

178
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,680
Speaker 2: I felt that I also had the responsibility to tell

179
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,880
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister what I felt was right or wrong,

180
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,920
Speaker 2: and I felt that this was wrong. I mean, fundamentally,

181
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,880
Speaker 2: I decided to leave not because of the discussion on

182
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,920
Speaker 2: the pipeline, but I decided to leave cabinet because I

183
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 2: think that on climate change we're going in the wrong direction.

184
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,959
Speaker 2: And I'm hoping that me leaving cabinet will force a

185
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,080
Speaker 2: some discussion as to how we've been doing that since

186
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,160
Speaker 2: the beginning of the year.

187
00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,240
Speaker 1: And some of that is starting to happen. And I

188
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,920
Speaker 1: want to come to our resignations that have happened since yours.

189
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,959
Speaker 1: But before we do, let's go back to the policies.

190
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:10,640
Speaker 1: Defenders of Kannie's MoU with Alberta say that the Prime

191
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,760
Speaker 1: Minister is being pragmatic. That you know, Alberta was simply

192
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,280
Speaker 1: defying many of the government's own regulations. It had frozen

193
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,679
Speaker 1: its carbon price, as you noted, it had refused to

194
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,120
Speaker 1: implement the clean electricity rules, It had vowed to block

195
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,840
Speaker 1: the methane regulations, or the oil and gas gap that

196
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,680
Speaker 1: again you had championed, and so Kannie was just trying

197
00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,560
Speaker 1: to manage to get Alberta committed to say a minimum

198
00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,160
Speaker 1: carbon price. Even if it's not one hundred and seventy dollars,

199
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,000
Speaker 1: at least it goes up from where it is. So why,

200
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,240
Speaker 1: in your view, would it have been better to maintain

201
00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,120
Speaker 1: the federal environment regulations at the level that you had,

202
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,440
Speaker 1: even as a province was simply defying it.

203
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,680
Speaker 2: Well, they were defying it because we let them do it.

204
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:03,840
Speaker 2: Carbon pricing is was put in place as platters as

205
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,760
Speaker 2: part of federal law, federal criminal law, so we we

206
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,120
Speaker 2: had all the powers if we wanted to impose the price,

207
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,440
Speaker 2: the federal price. In fact, we what we could have

208
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,200
Speaker 2: done as a federal government and say, okay, Alberta, your

209
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:24,560
Speaker 2: system is no longer equivalent to the federal minimum standard

210
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,360
Speaker 2: that is going up. Therefore the federal system will be

211
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,480
Speaker 2: imposed in the province. That's what is supposed to happen

212
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,600
Speaker 2: if a province is out of compliance with with with

213
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,440
Speaker 2: the federal system and doesn't want to course correct because

214
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,160
Speaker 2: they can be out of compliance, and then we can

215
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,280
Speaker 2: say we can tell them listen, you have to you know,

216
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 2: you have to fix the fix it. And and and

217
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,719
Speaker 2: I have done that when I was when I was

218
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,960
Speaker 2: the environment minister with Alberta negotiated what's its catchel, what's

219
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,080
Speaker 2: the sketch one? So we've done it before, but I

220
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,400
Speaker 2: think this time I don't know. We we didn't even try.

221
00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,840
Speaker 2: We the Clean Electricity Regulation again, is is a regulation

222
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:06,480
Speaker 2: that was instituted under federal criminal law, the Canadian Environmental

223
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,360
Speaker 2: Protection Act. So at the end of the day, if

224
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 2: a province doesn't want to implement it, they don't have

225
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,640
Speaker 2: a choice. It's federal law. Would we allow a province

226
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 2: to just ignore elements of the federal criminal Code? Of

227
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 2: course not, So why would we do it for environmental laws?

228
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,760
Speaker 1: Well, there is this fear that Alberta also has a

229
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 1: secessionist movement and that it would want to separate out

230
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,760
Speaker 1: from the federal Canadian structure as a result, and that

231
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,880
Speaker 1: Makani was making a compromise to maybe not force the

232
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 1: rules down their throat, as would have been the right

233
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,000
Speaker 1: of a federal government to do, but to make these

234
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 1: compromises so that it could keep the sovereignty of the

235
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,560
Speaker 1: country together. Is that not an argument you buy?

236
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I certainly recognized that the Prime Minister is

237
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:04,080
Speaker 2: concerned with this, we can call it a nascent separatist

238
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,360
Speaker 2: movement in Alberta, although it's been there for some times.

239
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,160
Speaker 2: You know, different polls tells us that it's about eighteen

240
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:17,760
Speaker 2: percent of the population in the province who also think

241
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 2: that Canada should be become the fifty first state of

242
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,960
Speaker 2: the United States. It is not the view of the

243
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:29,200
Speaker 2: vast majority of Albertan's. Now, I recognize and I agree

244
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,120
Speaker 2: with the Prime Minister that we should make some efforts

245
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 2: to ensure that all Canadians feel they have a place

246
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:40,280
Speaker 2: in the federation. Is the pipeline is sacrificing our environmental

247
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,880
Speaker 2: laws that will harm Canadians from coast to coast to

248
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,280
Speaker 2: coast in terms of I mean, if Canada doesn't do

249
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:54,400
Speaker 2: its fair share, will have more climate change, more air

250
00:15:54,440 --> 00:16:02,320
Speaker 2: pollution in our cities, more issues with water quality, and frankly,

251
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,320
Speaker 2: by going so far to please the Alberta government on

252
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,720
Speaker 2: this MoU he is fueling another separatist movement in my

253
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 2: home province of Quebec. And it's not in Quebec. It's

254
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,800
Speaker 2: not an ascent movement. It's a you know, it's an

255
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,920
Speaker 2: organized political party that has won elections, that has done

256
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,440
Speaker 2: too referendum to separate from Canada, and the leading part

257
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 2: in the polls, the party that has been leading for

258
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,200
Speaker 2: thirty consecutive months in that province is a separatist party.

259
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,120
Speaker 2: By going out of our way to make concessions to

260
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,800
Speaker 2: Alberta to be very ambiguous about whether or not, for example,

261
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,880
Speaker 2: the province of British Columbia would have a say in

262
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,400
Speaker 2: whether or not a pipeline could go through its territory,

263
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,680
Speaker 2: then it's it's fueling the separatist movement in Quebec, saying

264
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,480
Speaker 2: you see, they would be willing to do that to us,

265
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,800
Speaker 2: They would be willing to get a pipeline through Quebec

266
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,200
Speaker 2: without our permission. Of course, let's find ways to make

267
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,879
Speaker 2: sure all burdens feel that they were included, but not

268
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:11,280
Speaker 2: at the expense of fueling another much more robust, much

269
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:16,320
Speaker 2: more organized separatist movement in Quebec.

270
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,400
Speaker 1: Now, if it comes to the oil pipeline, you are

271
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,000
Speaker 1: among very few people who's been able to talk to

272
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:31,000
Speaker 1: McCarney about climate, about environment. Now, he himself was formerly

273
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,600
Speaker 1: the Special on Climate Action and Finance for the United Nations.

274
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,240
Speaker 1: Do you think that someone with his climate credentials really

275
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:41,560
Speaker 1: wants to build an oil pipeline.

276
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,920
Speaker 2: Do I believe that McCartney is still Prime Minister Carney

277
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,679
Speaker 2: is still concerned by climate change. Yes, I am coming

278
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,719
Speaker 2: to the conclusion that, and it's one of the reasons

279
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,360
Speaker 2: I resigned from cabinet that our vision of how we

280
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,919
Speaker 2: go about doing that is very different, I think, and

281
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 2: I've tried as an environment minister, and even before I

282
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,440
Speaker 2: was an Environment Minister, I was still working on that

283
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 2: with the True Do Government, to build in architecture of

284
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,439
Speaker 2: a plan that had many components at carbon pricing, it

285
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:17,560
Speaker 2: had regulation, it had massive investment by the government starting

286
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 2: in Budget twenty twenty two, and like one hundred and

287
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 2: sixty billion dollars of investment for electrification, for clean technology,

288
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:31,720
Speaker 2: more entertise in between provinces in Canada, so that those

289
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 2: provinces that rely heavily on renewable energy could could sell

290
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,920
Speaker 2: more of it to neighboring provinces that are more dependent

291
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,840
Speaker 2: on fossil fuels. And there is this perception, I think

292
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 2: by by Prime Minister Carney and some members of the

293
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:52,160
Speaker 2: cabinet that the previous action of the government of the

294
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,240
Speaker 2: the action of the previous government True Do government on

295
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,399
Speaker 2: climate change was all regulation and that's simply wrong. And

296
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,120
Speaker 2: their view is that the market is going to do it,

297
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,000
Speaker 2: and we'll, you know, we'll let the market and the

298
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,640
Speaker 2: financial sector invest massively in those technologies. And of course

299
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,840
Speaker 2: we need that to achieve our targets to get the

300
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 2: net zero, but we also need regulations like we won't

301
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 2: get there and right now. When I was a environment minister,

302
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,200
Speaker 2: for the first time in our history, our emissions went

303
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 2: down while the economy was growing. That had never happened before.

304
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 2: And there was sometimate estimates that were done by an

305
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,679
Speaker 2: independent organization called the Canadian Climate Institute that said that

306
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 2: with the plan that we had in place, we had

307
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 2: eighty five to ninety percent of being able to achieve

308
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,439
Speaker 2: our twenty thirty targets, which have been a first in

309
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 2: our history. We've never been able to achieve any climate

310
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 2: targets in Canada. And now we're sacrificing major elements of

311
00:19:54,280 --> 00:20:00,360
Speaker 2: that plan to put in place a strategy that might

312
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,199
Speaker 2: work fifteen twenty years from now, but we have no

313
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 2: guarantees and frankly, we have no data, we have no

314
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,400
Speaker 2: plan to be able to say that that plan will

315
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,160
Speaker 2: get us to carbon neutrality. Let me give you an example.

316
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 2: The oil sands sector is the largest emitting sector in Canada.

317
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 2: It's very carbon intensive to produce this type of oil.

318
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,879
Speaker 2: It's one of the most carbon intensive barrel of oil

319
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,399
Speaker 2: in the world. There's been a discussion about this massive

320
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,959
Speaker 2: carbon capturing storage project, and some see this, including some

321
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 2: X Cabinet colleagues of mine, see this as a silver bullet.

322
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 2: We'll start producing decarbonized oil. Hold on a second, like

323
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 2: this technology will allow emissions to go down by about

324
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,879
Speaker 2: twelve percent, So we'll have If we compare the barrel

325
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,679
Speaker 2: of oil produced in Alberta compared to a barrel of

326
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,640
Speaker 2: oil produced on our East coast offshore, it's ten times

327
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 2: the emissions. In terms of production oil sands, it's ten

328
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 2: times more emitting than a barrel of oil produced on

329
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 2: our east coast. So we won't have a decarbonized oil

330
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,119
Speaker 2: sand barrel. We'll have a barrel of oil sand that

331
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 2: is twelve percent less emitting, but it's not fifty percent

332
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,119
Speaker 2: and it's not zero. And we're saying we're willing to

333
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 2: add a pipeline that would increase production by a million barrels.

334
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,639
Speaker 2: On top of that, there's the math doesn't add up,

335
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 2: there's no way we can get to carbon neutrality if

336
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 2: our largest sector continues to be a net emitter year

337
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 2: after year, Like there's you. You can't compress the emissions

338
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 2: enough in the other sectors to get there. At least

339
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 2: I don't see it.

340
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,400
Speaker 1: I'll come back to the pipeline. But just going back

341
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,160
Speaker 1: to how you think that the Prime minister you believe

342
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,239
Speaker 1: is still worried about climate change, and if that is

343
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 1: true and he understands the science, then he should understand

344
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 1: the urgency. And what you are saying is that the

345
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 1: regulations would have started to make a difference towards meeting

346
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 1: climate goals, even if they weren't all the way to

347
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: the one hundred percent, but eighty five ninety percent, and

348
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: that would have been done on a deadline, which is

349
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 1: twenty thirty twenty thirty five clear markers. But that's not

350
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 1: going to happen under this new regime. So then how

351
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: does he really understand climate change? Because with that understanding

352
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 1: needs to come the urgency that doesn't seem to be there.

353
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 2: I think one of the answer to that question is

354
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 2: something you were mentioned earlier in the discussion, and that's

355
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 2: obviously what's happening south of the border, and the fact

356
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 2: that our economy is under attack by the US government.

357
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 2: They were going after our auto sector. They do not

358
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 2: want cars to be built in Canada anymore. They're going

359
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 2: after our steel sector, and we're seeing massive layoffs in

360
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 2: those sectors. The Canadian economy so far is still being

361
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 2: has been able to withstand shocks. We've created more jobs

362
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: in the first part of the year than we've lost.

363
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 2: The economy still growing fastest growth in the last quarter

364
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 2: of the G seven. But it is anticipated that some

365
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 2: sectors and the overall Canaan economy could suffer massively if

366
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 2: that continues. And obviously, as the Prime Minister, he's very

367
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 2: worried about that, as he should be. Now. I think

368
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why he's making those decisions,

369
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 2: because he feels that we have to remove barriers regulations

370
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 2: from making sure that there are more and more investment

371
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 2: in decarbonization, electrification, critical minerals. And that's where I think

372
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 2: we disagree. I think we can still have and in fact,

373
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,360
Speaker 2: last year, in twenty twenty four, despite all those regulars

374
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 2: that I had introduced myself and others, Canada was came

375
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 2: third in the world for direct foreign investment after the

376
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: US and Brazil. So clearly it seemed that our regulatory

377
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 2: framework was not preventing foreign investors to come to Canada,

378
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 2: but I think the Prime Minister and some cabinet ministers

379
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 2: see that as an impediment to more investment.

380
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of my conversation with Stephen Gibbo,

381
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: former Climate Minister of Canada after the shortbreak, and while

382
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: I have you, please take a moment to rate and

383
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

384
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 3: Thank you.

385
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 1: You've talked through some other real consequences of this kind

386
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 1: of backtracking that's happening on climate policies. But even before

387
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: the Alberta MoU was signed, the Canadian Climate Institute said

388
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: in September that no progress had been made on reducing

389
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: emissions in twenty twenty four, a period when you were

390
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: Environment minister. You talked about the investment figures that came

391
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: in that year and that looked good, but the emissions

392
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: didn't fall. And already even before the Alberta MoU, the

393
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: country was not on track for twenty thirty or twenty

394
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: thirty five commitments.

395
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 3: Is it time for the.

396
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: Canadian government not just you, but the Canadian government to

397
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: admit publicly that it's not going to meet its Paris

398
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: climate commitments.

399
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 2: The only chance we had of coming close to meeting

400
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: our targets was if we continued full speed ahead with

401
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 2: the implementation of the various measures, including investment. Now, investment

402
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 2: obviously takes some time before you see the results. Investors

403
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: have to decide to commit the money, then they project

404
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 2: has to go through impact assessment, public consultation, then it

405
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 2: has to be built. So you know, it's a few

406
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: years before before you see the benefit of that regulation

407
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 2: has usually I mean depending, but it can have more

408
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 2: immediate impact of in terms of emission reduction. But since

409
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: the end of the year twenty twenty four, like we've

410
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: eliminated the consumer carbon pricing portion of our mechanism. So

411
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 2: we have industrial carbon pricing, which is the most important,

412
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 2: Like this is what drives a mission reduction. About three

413
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: quarters of the overall emission reduction we get from pricing

414
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: are from industrial pricing. But the consumer facing portion of

415
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: it was still non negligible in terms of emission reduction.

416
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: But it was also intended as as a way to

417
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 2: help change behaviors by Canadians. So we lost that when

418
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 2: Prime Minister Carnie came in, and I understood it had

419
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 2: become a very unpopular piece of public policy, largely because

420
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: the Conservative Party of Canada for two years invested millions

421
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 2: of dollars lying to Canadians about its impact. Then we

422
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 2: decided to pause our zero vehicle emission standard, so not eliminated,

423
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: but pause it. There was an interim target for the

424
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: Canadian sector in twenty twenty six, then targets for twenty

425
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: thirty and twenty thirty five, these measures being pause and

426
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: now potentially others being removed. And obviously if the MoU

427
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: with Alberta doesn't come to a fruitful conclusion, then one

428
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: could anticipate that we keep those regulations. They're not compromise.

429
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: But the fact that we are no longer moving full

430
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: steam ahead on climate change leads me to agree with you.

431
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: I think that the government should and I think we'll

432
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 2: have data that shows this very very very soon, coming

433
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 2: from the government itself saying that we can't meet our

434
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 2: twenty thirty targets. I don't think we have data yet

435
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: for twenty thirty five, but we will probably have that

436
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: soon as well. And I think we need to. I

437
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 2: think we need to be honest with Canadians. I think

438
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 2: politicians would benefit from from being more honest overall. And

439
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 2: I think, you know, we shouldn't pretend with Canadians or

440
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: you know, stop talking about twenty thirty or twenty thirty

441
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 2: five and then shift our communications to net zero by

442
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: twenty fifty because we don't want to talk about twenty thirty.

443
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 2: Let's be honest, let's let's be frank, and let's have

444
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: an honest conversation with Canadians on that.

445
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: And do you think that's also going to be true

446
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: for net zero by twenty fifty. Then if you can't

447
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: stay on track for thirty and maybe thirty five, then

448
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: can you really get to twenty fifty net zero?

449
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm I'm skeptical that we can right now,

450
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: but I'm willing to be proven wrong if I can

451
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: be shown some analysis and you know, modeling from the

452
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: government and maybe others that show that there's a pathway

453
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 2: to do that. But like, if you can't meet your

454
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: twenty thirty targets, and if you can't meet your twenty

455
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: thirty five targets and your missions are continue to increase,

456
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: like it's a pretty steep curve to get to carbon

457
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: neutrality by twenty fifty like and maybe twenty five years

458
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: away from now. But from an you know, from a

459
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: societal point of view, twenty five years not a long

460
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: time if you want to basically overall how your society

461
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: uses or produces carbon, it's not a long it's not

462
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 2: a long time. And if and if we waste ten

463
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: years because we continue increasing emissions, then it's not twenty

464
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: five years we have to do that, it's fifteen years

465
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 2: or ten years. It becomes it becomes difficult to see

466
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:08,239
Speaker 2: how we can do that.

467
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: After you resigned, we've had at least one more big

468
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: profile resignation. Simon Donner, who's a climate scientist and the

469
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: head of the net Zero advisory body that gives recommendations

470
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: on climate policies to the government, has resigned and he

471
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: said in his post on LinkedIn that I was not

472
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: comfortable with the process becoming neglected or performative somebody else

473
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: I spoke to put what's happening right now with the

474
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: Albert m or you, but the year worth of backtracking

475
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: on climate policies, as this is the end of Canada's

476
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: climate strategy would you agree.

477
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: I think, as I said earlier, I hope that my

478
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: resignation will will lead to a conversation within the government,

479
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: with cabinet, the Prime Minister's office about how we've been

480
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: approaching climate change so far. And I think there is

481
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: still a chance. And I'm still a member of the

482
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: Liberal Caucus. I didn't I didn't leave the government. I'm

483
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: still an MP. I have certainly I will certainly use

484
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: my time as a as a member of Parliament who

485
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: as a member of Parliament you have more freedom in

486
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: terms of of what you can say. You're not bound

487
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: by cabinet solidarity. And I know that there are many

488
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: colleagues within the Liberal Party who want to see better

489
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 2: climate policies implemented by by by the government. So I

490
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: think many of us will be working to ensure that

491
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: we don't lose those essential key elements of our of

492
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: our climate change strategy, while making sure that we continue

493
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: making investments or private sect well the government and the

494
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,479
Speaker 2: private sector continues to make investment in decarbonization. I wouldn't

495
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: say that we've lost it, but I think it's at risk.

496
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: I think it is definitely at risk, and many of us,

497
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: including people outside government will need to work hard to

498
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: try and save we still can.

499
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: Why still remain part of the Liberal Party because there's

500
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: a clear invitation you have from the Green Party leader,

501
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: Elizabeth May saying come join the Green Party. You can

502
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: vote for the Liberal policies that you agree with, but

503
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: then you can actually stand for the principles that you

504
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: have fought for all your life.

505
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: I believe the first thing I should say is I

506
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: have a great respect for the leader of the Green

507
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: Party in Canada. She's been a personal friend of mine

508
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 2: for over thirty years. So although we're not in the

509
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: same party, we agree on many things and we work

510
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: together in parliament quite often. I think I have more

511
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 2: influence by staying within the Liberal Party that I would

512
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: if I was outside the party, And I think, as

513
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: I said, there are many colleagues, and frankly, right now,

514
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: the only thing we've lost is consumer carbon pricing. Like

515
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: from a factual point of view, there's a pause on

516
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: the zero mission vehicle standard, but it's not gone. The

517
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 2: regulations are still there, the clean ac tristy regulations are

518
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 2: still there, methane regulations are still there, the oil and

519
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: gas emissions cap. I presented the draft regulations, but I

520
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: ran out of time to be able to finalize them,

521
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: so you could say this one is a bit more compromised.

522
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: But the rest of the architecture of our climate plan

523
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: is still intact as we speak, and what's putting it

524
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: at risk is this, MoU would Alberta. So is there

525
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: a way that many of us within the party and

526
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 2: people outside the party can work to ensure that whatever

527
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: this agreement ends up being doesn't sacrifice our climate plan.

528
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: I'll that's what I will be working on in the

529
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: coming months.

530
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: You said, coming into politic, you made that choice because

531
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: you taught even as an activist, the leaders had been

532
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: doing such a bad job of acting on climate that

533
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: what could it be, How worse could it be if

534
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,919
Speaker 1: you got into politics it could only get better? Would

535
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: you consider leaving politics now?

536
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: Well, it has gone better, Like as I was saying earlier,

537
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: for the first time in our history, our missions have

538
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: come down. While the economy was going up. Before there

539
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 2: were parallel curves like the emission. If the economy was

540
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 2: going up, our missions were going up. And under the

541
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: previous government, the sky was the limit in terms of

542
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 2: our mission reduction. So our missions have come down twenty

543
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: twenty four, they've stayed either stable or maybe diminished a

544
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: little bit, certainly not the rate of emission reduction that

545
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 2: we need to see. But I think what we've done

546
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 2: in the last four or five years is to show

547
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: that we can do that, that we can have of

548
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: a thriving economy, jobs being created, good jobs, and that

549
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: we can fight climate change at the same time. We

550
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: need to continue doing that, and that's what I want.

551
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 2: That's what I will do and try to show to

552
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 2: the government, to the Prime Minister, to esteem the other

553
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: cabinet members, and to the Canadian public. And it is

554
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: more difficult now. I mean, climate change is not the priority.

555
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 2: Cost of living is the priority. The threat from the

556
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: United States is more of a priority. But for about

557
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 2: eighteen to twenty percent of Canadians one in five Canadian

558
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: for whom this is the number one priority, and we

559
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 2: can't ignore those people. Many of them have elected me

560
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 2: three times in a rolic. My writing is very progressive,

561
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: but it is the case in many parts of the

562
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 2: country as well. And I think I'm the one who

563
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: I'm part of those people who believe that we won

564
00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: the last election in part because progressives decided to not

565
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 2: vote for other parties that they've traditionally voted for, and

566
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 2: they trusted us with their vote because they were worried

567
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: about Donald Trump. And that's true of most probably, but

568
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: many gave us their trust because of Mark Karney's pet

569
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 2: degree on climate change and because they are concerned about that.

570
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two, I got a chance to interview

571
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: Justin Trudeau, who was the Prime minister. Then you were

572
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: there in the audience. You were listening to that interview.

573
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: My first question was, you've been prime minister for seven

574
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: years then, and you came in to promise action on

575
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: climate and if you look at the emissions curve, it

576
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: hasn't bent. It's flat, but it hasn't bent. And I

577
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 1: will admit he said, at the time we are starting

578
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: to put things in place, we will see emissions reduction happen.

579
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: They haven't happened at the pace at which you would

580
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 1: want or at which Canada needs to meet its climate goals.

581
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: But yes, they have fallen since, which is worth admitting.

582
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: As much as policies take time to show up as

583
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 1: a result, it took a long time from twenty fifteen

584
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: to actually see emissions reduction, but you did see emissions

585
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: reductions now because of cost of living pressures and because

586
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: of the US President allowing for a lot more climate

587
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: denialism around the world through his speeches, including at the

588
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: United Nations. There is certainly in many parts of the world,

589
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: not just in Canada, a decline in climate as a

590
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: priority for many people. Are you worried for Canada specifically

591
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: that it will start to fall further as a result?

592
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 2: I think this is certainly something everyone who's preoccupied by

593
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: climate change needs to be worried about. I think we

594
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 2: are seeing a rise in populism in many parts of

595
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: the world, and climate change now is part of this

596
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: culture war that we are seeing, So I think I

597
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: think we collectively have to up our game. We have

598
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: to be able to communicate better to help people understand,

599
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: and traditionally we have not. It's true of governments, but

600
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 2: even when I was in the NGO sector, I think

601
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: we didn't do a very good job of communicating this

602
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: issue in a way that would resonate with the public.

603
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 2: Even though sometimes it was very high in the priority,

604
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: the level of understanding is still a mile long but

605
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 2: an inch deep, So we have to do a better

606
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 2: job on that. But it is definitely a risk for Canada,

607
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 2: as it is a risk for many other countries.

608
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: You said one thing that climate people need to get

609
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: better at is to be able to communicate that This

610
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: is not just to try and avoid a problem, it's

611
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: also to try and help the economy, help people grow

612
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: in the twenty first century. What are the ways in

613
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: which you have seen that message land effectively.

614
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: I think the good news is that there's a lot

615
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: of people in North America and Europe and around the

616
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: world working at helping governments, non government organizations, grassroots organizations

617
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: improve their communications. We know a lot more about the

618
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: science of how to communicate about environmental issues about climate change.

619
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: When I started I was at colap One in nineteen

620
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 2: ninety five, we had no idea how to communicate on

621
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: this issue, and I think by default many of us

622
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: thought that what we needed to do was to talk

623
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,760
Speaker 2: about natural catastrophe and scare people into action. That didn't

624
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: really work, and in many instances it had a counter

625
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 2: effect to what we were trying to do. But fortunately

626
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 2: now we know much more about how to do that,

627
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 2: and there is a lot of people doing great work

628
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 2: at climate change communication around the world. So I think

629
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: it is happening. Same time, we are faced with people

630
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 2: with a lot of money, some of them coming from

631
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: from the oil and gas sector, not solely, but but

632
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: but quite a bit and coal sector. Uh. We're faced

633
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 2: with opponents who have lots of means and who are

634
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: who are spending a lot of money to try and

635
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 2: convince people that it is a hoax, that you know,

636
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: it's an invention, there's no problem. Look, there's snow in

637
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 2: Canada in the winter. You know, what's this whole climate

638
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 2: change thing about global warming? So it's not I'm I'm

639
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: I'm hopeful, but but it is going to be It

640
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 2: is going to be a fight. Thank you, Steven, Thank

641
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: you very much. Take care.

642
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: And thank you for listening to zero Now for the

643
00:40:50,160 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: sound of the week. That is the sound of an

644
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: enormous struck the size of a building carrying oil sands

645
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: to a processing facility in Alberta, Canada. Canadian oil sands

646
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: production is expected to reach a record three point five

647
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: million barrels a day in twenty twenty five, five percent

648
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: higher than twenty twenty four. If you like this episode,

649
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show

650
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. This episode was produced by

651
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: Oscar Boyd with help from Eleanor Harrison Dengate. Our theme

652
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to Somrsadi Moses Andem,

653
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 1: Laura Milan and Shan chen i'm Akshatrati Black Soon