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Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I'm David Tweed. I'm a government reporter of

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Speaker 1: Boomberg here in Hong Kong. And with me is Tom mackenzie,

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Speaker 1: who's just completed the fourth of our series on the

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Speaker 1: Belton Road Initiative. And this is a series that actually

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Speaker 1: looks very closely the Belton Road Initiative and how it's

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Speaker 1: doing in Europe. And I have to say it's got

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Speaker 1: some mega personalities on it. It's a really good looking program.

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Speaker 1: And you started Athens, Tom, I was particularly interested in

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Speaker 1: in in how China apparently describes prayer support in Athens

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Speaker 1: as a dragon's head. What what what is that all about? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm never short of colorful phrasing the Chinese when it

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Speaker 1: comes to things like this, they say, and they've just

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Speaker 1: drived as being a link for their overland and maritime

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Speaker 1: routes that of course are the Belton Road Initiative, and

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Speaker 1: they are very proud of the operations that they have

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Speaker 1: in place in careers. It is run now by Costco,

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Speaker 1: China's majing major shipping arm and they run it and

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Speaker 1: have done in the last few years. They took over

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Speaker 1: the concession in fully running this port and they've had

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Speaker 1: quite a lot of success. In fact, they've recently reported

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Speaker 1: their profits for the first half of the year that

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Speaker 1: we're up around from the last time in seventeen. So

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Speaker 1: they see it as as a as a key test

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Speaker 1: that they can show an example, a case study they

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Speaker 1: can show to others of success in terms of their

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Speaker 1: ability to take over a port and make it work

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Speaker 1: and integrated into their Belt and Road initiative, and and

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Speaker 1: and so tell us what's the response been like on

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Speaker 1: the ground to this, What do the Greek businesses think? Well,

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Speaker 1: that was interesting. We we went there and we spent

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Speaker 1: some time in and around Peireers, which is a fairly

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Speaker 1: deprived part of Athens, and we were expecting to find people,

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Speaker 1: their businesses and residents who had issues with the Chinese

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Speaker 1: running of this port. There had initially been some complaints,

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Speaker 1: particularly from the unions, when China and Costco took over

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Speaker 1: the running of the port, But in fact what we

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Speaker 1: found was, I guess you could describe it as a

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Speaker 1: kind of reluctant acceptance amongst businesses there, that in fact

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Speaker 1: the Chinese were running it very well, that it had

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Speaker 1: increased trade flows, that careers have benefited from that, and

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Speaker 1: that their benefits that their benners businesses were benefiting from

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Speaker 1: it as well, and they were looking to take advantage

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Speaker 1: of the opportunities. There are still concerns and those were

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Speaker 1: voiced by some of the business leaders that we met

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Speaker 1: there around whether or not Chinese firms are going to

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Speaker 1: start to eat up some of the opportunities, particularly around

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Speaker 1: the logistics side of the business that spin off from

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Speaker 1: the broader port. But generally the sentiment that we got

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Speaker 1: was was positive. Johmmy Tom, what about in terms of

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Speaker 1: employing locals at the port? Are there are there more

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Speaker 1: people being employed? Well? This was a key question when

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Speaker 1: Costco took over the running up press, and it was

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Speaker 1: a key concern of course for the unions as well.

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Speaker 1: When we went there, all the workers on the ground,

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Speaker 1: all the workers using the Falklick lift trucks shifting the

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Speaker 1: cargo off these huge tankers, they were all Greek. And

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Speaker 1: you go into the main office where the head of

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Speaker 1: the ports sits with his Greek counterparts. The managers are Chinese,

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Speaker 1: but they work alongside Greek management as well, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you've got the Chinese flag flying, the Greek flag flying.

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Speaker 1: You got pictures of the Great Wall of Chinese got

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Speaker 1: pictures of the aproperlex next to each other, so they

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Speaker 1: would say this is a really good example of the

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Speaker 1: two sides working together. So they are continuing to the

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Speaker 1: majority of employees there are Greek in short answer, and

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Speaker 1: they've been adding headcounts as the ports operations have grown,

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Speaker 1: though of course automation is playing an increasing role in

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Speaker 1: his port, as it is in ports all over the world. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting actually that you mentioned and

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Speaker 1: we actually saw you had an interview with the Chinese

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Speaker 1: manager of the port, because in some of our other programs,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the in the one in East Africa, the

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Speaker 1: Chinese actually were very careful not to be sort of

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Speaker 1: shown on the screen. But in this case you you

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Speaker 1: you spoke to the to the manager, what was his take?

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Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think it points to a

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Speaker 1: level of confidence in their operations there they open their

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Speaker 1: door to us. We spent time, as you say, talking

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Speaker 1: to the manager Young and Ming. We got access pretty

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Speaker 1: good access to the board and its operations, which again

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Speaker 1: I think shows that they are at least trying to

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Speaker 1: be transparent and are confident and relaxed about bringing foreign

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Speaker 1: journalists in to poke around a bit. He said that, look,

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Speaker 1: we're benefiting more broadly from the from the Belton Road initiative.

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Speaker 1: He said that we didn't and they are not getting

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Speaker 1: funds direct financing from the central government for this as

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Speaker 1: part of this initiative. But they're benefiting because of the

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Speaker 1: thick up and pick up in trade flows, and that

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Speaker 1: they're working to expand the operations there. They've got the

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Speaker 1: container terminal, they've also got the car to comin on

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Speaker 1: and a ship repairs part of the business as well

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Speaker 1: that they're investing in. So they continue to increase investment

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Speaker 1: in the ports and they continue to see opportunities there.

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Speaker 1: On the other place that you you went, well, one

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Speaker 1: of the other places you went to look like you

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Speaker 1: traveled all over over all over Europe. It looked lovely.

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Speaker 1: Actually in the middle of the summer, I can't think

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Speaker 1: of anything more pleasant, although here it was pretty hot.

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Speaker 1: But one of the other places you went was Duisburg, right,

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Speaker 1: another town, a German town, which is looks to be

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Speaker 1: benefiting from the entire initiative. Right, Yeah, again, this is

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Speaker 1: this kind of forlorn China, I should say, this is

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Speaker 1: the kind of forlorn German city. That was once a

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Speaker 1: part of the industrial economy there, so cole and steel

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Speaker 1: was really the driving force of the economy of Louisburg

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Speaker 1: a couple of decades ago. That of course, has all changed.

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Speaker 1: There's pretty high levels of unemployment there and the economy

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Speaker 1: has struggled in recent years. But certainly the port there,

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Speaker 1: which is the largest overland port in Europe, and the

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Speaker 1: access the connections to China and Chinese trade flows have

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Speaker 1: helped to change the prospects for the city. There are

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Speaker 1: still problems there, but they are seeing a take up

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Speaker 1: in trains coming from cities like chong Ching and Evil

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Speaker 1: in China, bringing those goods, particularly I T equipment, computers, laptops,

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing, as well as clothes and toys,

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Speaker 1: bringing it into Duisburg and then funneling it out to

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Speaker 1: the rest of the European Union and the town. Your

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Speaker 1: metrics was, I think you said there was thirty trains

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Speaker 1: a weaker arriving and that's going to rise to fifty

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Speaker 1: by twenties, so it deserved significant growth. I suppose. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, someone say that that's an overly ambitious target,

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Speaker 1: but the numbers now are around thirty, and yes, they've

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Speaker 1: they've signaled they want to get it up to fifty.

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Speaker 1: There's an element of caution around that number for various reasons.

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Speaker 1: They also want to cut down the time as well,

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Speaker 1: that it takes currently takes about twelve days to go

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Speaker 1: from a city like chong Ching to Duisburg, and they

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Speaker 1: want to cut that town, of course, because it makes

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Speaker 1: in a more attractive proposition. They're trying to position themselves

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Speaker 1: between between freight overseas freight and airline freight. So that's

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Speaker 1: the proposition they're aiming for. Tom, you were also in Brussels, Um,

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Speaker 1: what does the EU stance on this b r I initiative.

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Speaker 1: I mean, are they concerned about the geopolitical implications, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I think those concerns frankly there. And the concerns that

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Speaker 1: they really push at this point at this stage are

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Speaker 1: concerns around transparency the bidding process of these Belton Road initiatives,

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Speaker 1: around sustainability, financial sustainability, fiscal sustainability, the environment as well

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Speaker 1: environmental sustainability. These are all issues they say that simply

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Speaker 1: are lacking in terms of being baked into Belton Row projects.

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Speaker 1: They say that they they want to be involved from

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Speaker 1: the European perspective. But China needs to do a better

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Speaker 1: job of baking some of these these norms into this

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Speaker 1: initiative in order for the European Union to really get

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Speaker 1: on board. And is there some document or anything that

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Speaker 1: the European Union actually needs to approve or to sign

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Speaker 1: off on in order to for disintegration to deepen, Well,

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Speaker 1: there was. There was a Belton Road summit held in Beijing,

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Speaker 1: the first one last year, and the Chinese made an

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Speaker 1: effort to try to strong arm the Europeans into signing

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Speaker 1: off on the Belton Road initiative, and the Europeans pushed

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Speaker 1: back pretty strongly, and it caused something of a something

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Speaker 1: of a something of a sore point, or at least

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Speaker 1: a point of tension between the two sides, because simply

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Speaker 1: these these pledges around again around the bidding process and

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Speaker 1: around environmental standards and economic standards and fiscal stands weren't

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Speaker 1: there as far as the Europeans were concerned. So they

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Speaker 1: haven't signed onto it um and that the Chinese would

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Speaker 1: dearly love them to do that. We are still it

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Speaker 1: seems a fair distance away from that happening. The Europeans

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Speaker 1: are put forward their own proposals around infrastructure. They've got

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Speaker 1: a connectivity plan that they help will be will be

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Speaker 1: able to be in addition to, or will complement the

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Speaker 1: Belton Road initiative, and they want the Chinese to embrace that.

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Speaker 1: So that's kind of where we're at at this stage.

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Speaker 1: If the two sides can come together and if you

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Speaker 1: can have that connectivity plan that the Europeans have afford

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Speaker 1: baked into the Belton Road initiative, then you're going to

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Speaker 1: see much more enthusiasm from the Europeans. The geopolitical there

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Speaker 1: was a case another set of concerns Tom There was

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Speaker 1: a case recently or was it last year, and it

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Speaker 1: was a case of Greece and I think another country,

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Speaker 1: was it Hungary? Was that that had had had voted

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Speaker 1: against um some decision that needed unanimity on the European Union.

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Speaker 1: Is there still a sense that China we'll trying to

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Speaker 1: attempt to peel off just one country, like we've sort

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Speaker 1: of seen with China's approach to the South China, see

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Speaker 1: where it gets in the way of as you end

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Speaker 1: unity by pressuring loud or Cambodia not to sign up

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Speaker 1: two statements that need unanimity. Is is there a concern

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Speaker 1: about that strategy playing out in in the European Union. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there is that concern, and we spoke to Paul Henley

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Speaker 1: from the Carnegie E. Tinghai Institute. He's a former member

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Speaker 1: of the National Security Council for the White House in Washington.

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Speaker 1: We spoke to also Foncois Gourdemore from the European Council

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Speaker 1: on Foreign Relations, and they both pointed to this concern

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Speaker 1: that China was using this dividing conquer approach visa v.

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Speaker 1: The Belton Road, and it's just visa its investments in

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Speaker 1: Europe and particularly trying to leverage those investments when it

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Speaker 1: comes to countries that need that fiscal support, so countries

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Speaker 1: like Greece and Hungry, and you pointed to that example.

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Speaker 1: There was an example as well of the European Union

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Speaker 1: trying to put out a statement in relation to the

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Speaker 1: South China Sea and the Greeks and Hungarians watering that

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Speaker 1: statement down, and that was seen as an example of

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Speaker 1: China's leverage in that regard. So that is a concern

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Speaker 1: as well, clearly amongst the Europeans. Now you spoke to

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Speaker 1: Joe Kaiser, who is the chief executive of Siemens, which

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Speaker 1: is uh, you know, Siemens has been investing in having

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Speaker 1: business in China since at first exported a power generation

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Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty years ago or something. Um. So

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Speaker 1: what did Joe Kaiser did? Did he did he respond

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Speaker 1: to any of these sorts of concerns about transparency that

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Speaker 1: the European Union has? He did? He said, I put

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Speaker 1: it to him. You know, you're at risk of tarnishing

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Speaker 1: the brand, the Siemens brand by associating yourself with companies

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Speaker 1: with state owned enterprises and initiatives that don't have the

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Speaker 1: same levels of corporate governance and transparency that maybe a

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Speaker 1: company like Siemens does. And he pushed back on that said, look,

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Speaker 1: we simply will not work on projects where there are

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Speaker 1: concerns around graft for example, or where the bidding process

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Speaker 1: hasn't been transparent. But effectively, his point was, this is

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Speaker 1: such a vast project, um and you know you can

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Speaker 1: take issue with it, but it is going to happen

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Speaker 1: and you need to get involved and steer it in

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Speaker 1: the right direction. He said, A company like Seems can

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Speaker 1: bring our expertise, as he would say, to the table

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Speaker 1: and help to shape these projects so that they meet

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Speaker 1: the norms that the Europeans, but others like the US

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Speaker 1: and Australians want to see as well. So that was

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Speaker 1: his position, as he certainly sees it as obviously an

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Speaker 1: opportunity of seems at a time when the business is

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Speaker 1: struggling in some areas, and he said it could end

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Speaker 1: up replacing the w t O. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's a fairly strong statement from him, but he was saying.

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Speaker 1: You know, his point really was if you don't get

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Speaker 1: on board, then you risk missing out on this opportunity

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Speaker 1: there's involving ninety countries, as he put it in about

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Speaker 1: the world's population. Yeah, that comment that he had about

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Speaker 1: the b r I eventually or partially possibly replacing the

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Speaker 1: w t O very very interesting. But also look, I

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Speaker 1: was more interested in the fact that you actually got

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Speaker 1: him on a factory floor. How did you get him

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Speaker 1: out of his offers? Well, I think that goes to

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Speaker 1: show the extent to which Siemens wants to be affiliated

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Speaker 1: with this initiative. That we obviously contacted them so would

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Speaker 1: do this show on the Belton Road initiatives. They said,

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Speaker 1: we're fine, we want to be involved. They've got an

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Speaker 1: office in Beijing dedicated to the Belton Road initiative. They've

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Speaker 1: signed something like ten memorians of understanding. They really want

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Speaker 1: to be a leading force from the corporate side in

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Speaker 1: in this initiative and in shaping some of these some

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Speaker 1: of the opportunities, and they think that they can bring

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Speaker 1: a lot to play. So that's that's I think an

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Speaker 1: example of just their willingness to show that they are

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Speaker 1: signing up to this even if the European Union itself isn't.

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Speaker 1: So got him inside one of these massive turbine factories

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Speaker 1: where they design and build and put together some of

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Speaker 1: these huge turbines, and we and you know, he gave

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Speaker 1: a pretty forthright set of views on the implications of

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Speaker 1: this initiative, which he said is are not perfect. It

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Speaker 1: is not perfect, he said, but the idea of ignoring

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Speaker 1: it is is not something that should be should be considered. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think that anecdote that you just told about how

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Speaker 1: Siemens has got an office not dedicated to Belton Road

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Speaker 1: in Beijing pretty much shows ex actly what European business

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Speaker 1: thinks about the whole initiative and how seriously they're taking it. Tom.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much, um and and everyone you know,

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Speaker 1: thanks for listening. It's been a great series. I'm David

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Speaker 1: Tweed in Hong Kong. I've been speaking with Tom mackenzie

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Speaker 1: and Beijing