WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 41: Sedge Valley, Pinehurst No. 10, Difficulty vs. "Fun," and Blind Shots 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.320 And when I find my ball. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.920 In a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.840 Friday Fridagg Bride Egg. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:13.640 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump. 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:38.920 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Golf Podcast. 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:43.400 I am Andy Johnson and we have another episode with 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.640 Tom Doak, another episode of the Yoke with Doak for you. 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:52.320 So we released an episode that was all part of 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.160 this conversation earlier this week, so it will be the 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.520 last podcast in your feed. But in this episode we 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.960 talk about Sedge Valley, Tom's new course at stan Valley, 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:05.319 as well as Pineors number ten and a slew of 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:09.200 other topics. So this was a really really fun conversation. 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.920 I hope everybody's having a great and safe Thanksgiving holiday. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.760 As a quick reminder, we have a sale in the 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:22.720 fridaygg pro shop. It is a proshop dot Thefridagg dot com. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.720 If you use the promo code black Friday, you get 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:28.480 twenty percent off everything. If you're if you happen to 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:32.200 be a CLUBTFE member, use your clubtf E code and 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.920 it's twenty five percent off everything. So really appreciate the 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.640 support and through the year. It's been a great year 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:42.640 and can't wait to do it again next year. So 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.240 thank you guys for the support. And without further ado, 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:53.520 here's Tom dok. All right, let's talk a little bit 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:57.240 about SEDG. You know one thing out there you have, 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.160 you have a lot of drivable part fours, just in 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:02.360 general and in your career you've built a lot of 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:04.480 great drivable par fours. I think a lot of people 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:08.240 would agree with that, and thunder McRobert asked the question, 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:10.920 how do you keep them from feeling too similar to 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:11.359 each other? 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.359 Well, first let's talk about Sedge a little. I mean, 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:17.960 the disappointing part of doing the Renaissance Cup was that 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:25.679 Sedge Valley was reduced to a and I hated that 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:30.639 because for one, it's really my design instead of me 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.160 building somebody else's design. And two I think it's really 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:36.399 good and I think it turned out really well, and 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.399 I hope it can get past that and people appreciate 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.639 it in its own right here next year and the 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:49.200 year after, Yeah, I've built a lot of cool short 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:53.600 par fours. Although drivable part fours. Most of them are overseas. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.280 If you think about the ones that come to your 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.960 mind right away are at Barnboogle and St Andrew's Beach 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.760 and Terry Yeedy and not so much. I guess there's 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:05.080 a couple of Pacific dunes. 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.320 But other than that, you. 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.200 Know, my short part four is over here or a 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:13.200 little longer, because most American clients didn't want a two 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:15.880 hundred and eighty five yard part four. They just were 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.000 afraid of that number. And you know, I said to 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.040 Mike Clayton a long time ago when we were working 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.160 in Australia that that I thought part of the thing 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:28.720 was that three hundred yard number was so important in America, 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.799 just like you're trying to get to seven thousand yards 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.480 on the total scorecard. It's like if he had a 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.320 par four that was under three hundred yards, everybody would just. 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:38.200 Go, what's that? 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:43.560 And and in Australia they they measure everything in meters, 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.680 and that that magic number would be two hundred and 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.200 seventy two meters or whatever, and nobody cares about that. 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:52.840 You know, you don't think two hundred and sixty four meters. 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:57.040 So it shouldn't, you know, it's it's too short, But 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.360 I was glad to you know, have a chance to 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:04.120 do that at sam Valley and build two or three 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.960 holes at Sedge that really were like two eighty and 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.920 three to zero two and where you can think about 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:14.480 driving the green if the wind's not in your face. 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:20.000 And it is hard to do a bunch of driveable 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.400 par fours and make them different than each other. 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.039 I think that some. 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:30.880 People will say that six and A and twelve at 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.080 Sedge have some similarities. 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:34.200 They're both a little. 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.919 Left to right, they're both kind of skinny greens, and 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.120 it gets a lot harder the further the pin is 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.440 in the back of the green. So I think they'll 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.320 think they'll for sure or at least hopefully try to 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:50.279 think through, you know, the whole location so they don't 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:53.680 wind up mirroring the same whole location. You know, if 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:55.839 they just did the front middle back, front middle back 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.040 thing like some courses do, six and twelve would be 0:04:59.080 --> 0:04:59.640 on the same. 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.599 Rotation and that would suck. Yeah. 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.560 So and then there's the eighteenth, which is a drivable 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.520 par four, and that one's really a close copy of 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.800 the fourth at barn Google, just with a lot more 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:11.680 room you don't. You can hit it up to the 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:15.160 right and not have fear of losing the ball in 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.320 the native vegetation. So there's kind of an extra way 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.160 to play the hole. And I was really surprised how 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.200 many of my friends who have been to Barn Google 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:25.880 commented on that hole, said it was one of their 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:31.080 favorite holes, and did not really clock that it was 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.720 a really close copy of the hole at Barnboogle. 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:36.360 It's a really cool hole. 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:40.760 Obviously, it's a I think I assume you had to 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.240 do a lot of creating to make it, but that 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:45.520 you know you have this drivable part four, you have 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.760 a couple options. You can play very safe down to 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.360 the left. You can push it up to the right 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.640 over bunkers you have to carry some bunkers, or you 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.440 can go directly at the green, which is the longest 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.840 carry and it's this cool punch bowl green with kind 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:04.120 of three distinct areas in it, a front area, a 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.560 back right area, and a back left area. That's the 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.960 hardest to get to from in terms of driving the green. 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.640 It obviously opens up significantly if you play it to 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.240 the right, and it's very much a bowl. 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:19.600 If you played to the left. It's a very cool hole. 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.200 Was there a lot that went into creating that hole 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:25.720 or was it pretty naturally there? 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.960 It was generally you know, high on the right and 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.800 low on the left, but more tilted. So we exaggerated that, 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:37.960 but we really we used the same technology there we've 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:38.400 been using. 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:38.880 Alito. 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.760 Brian Zaeger got the light our data for Barnboogle. Amazingly, 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.240 it's all there for anybody to grab if they want to. 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.320 I shouldn't tell that to anybody. Fortunately, they're not developing 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:53.120 golf courses in China right now, or somebody be starting 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:58.039 on that tomorrow. But we grabbed the light our data. 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:03.719 We related on the ground that we had. The one 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:08.760 thing that we changed was or a barnboo goes very short, 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.720 but it's usually into a strong wind, so it's pretty 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:15.960 hard to drive the green. And if we'd have just 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.080 used it exactly the same way without that wind in 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.480 your face, it would have been much easier to drive. 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.000 So we just stretched it out about twenty yards and 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:29.680 the stretches between the big bunker the big low bunker 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:35.960 that comes up and going down into the green, so 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.559 there are more shots that carry the bunker, but don't 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:42.560 quite make it to the slope to stay up on 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:44.720 the right side of the green, and you know, wind 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.520 up down to the left as a result. It's funny 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.360 how just you know, making one little change and pulling 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.400 something apart and having to fill that space changes the 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:58.360 playability of the hole. But other than that, it's a 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:02.920 very close copy, and you know, closer than I would 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.840 like to admit. And you know, I was frankly amazed 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.160 that people did not pick up on that. You know, 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:12.000 we obviously we the mounds behind the green at Barnbougle, 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.040 those are big sand dunes, and we did tone down 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.040 the shit. You know that we didn't make them as 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.800 pointy as they are in the real golf hole because 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.640 that would not fit in at all at Sedge Valley. 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.280 You know, Sedge Valley is sandy and it has some dunes, 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.760 but it doesn't have like big pointy dunes with Sedge. 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:34.880 You know, you mentioned kind of the setup with the 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:39.040 short part fours, like making sure having different whole locations. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.680 Is there anything else that you're you're worried about from 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.800 the general public seeing it, Like, is there a concern? 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.640 And then is there one thing that you're really excited 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:54.640 to have the the the general public see and play well. 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:59.920 In the beginning, I was pretty concerned that Michael Kai 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.440 wouldn't want to set it up the way we wanted 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.040 to set it up. I mean, a big part of 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.520 the appeal to me is that there's basically going to 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.200 be there would basically be two tea markers, and we 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:15.040 would all pick which one to play, and we would 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.719 all play from the same tea markers, and you know, 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.400 some of the long part fours, you'd be going four 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:22.839 and two and I'd be playing like a three shot 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.040 hole with a stroke in hand. And that's the way 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.960 golf used to be instead of everybody has their own 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.960 tea and they're all set up so we can all 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.320 hit driver six iron on this whole. I don't like 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.320 that about modern golf at all. And by making the 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:43.520 thing really short, I thought that would, you know, reduce 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:50.240 the need for all those different teas positions, and we'd 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.920 wind up wanting to play from the same place, and 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:54.959 it would be more social, and it would be easier 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.400 to get the greens and teas really close together, because 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.360 you can't do that when there's five t over one 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.480 hundred and fifty yards it's maybe in the back it's 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.280 either the back tee or the regular members tee that's 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.520 close to the other green, and then the rest of 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.040 them are just a terrible one. 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:11.319 It's like a short course. 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.960 Like short courses are amazing at this because everybody plays 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:19.440 from generally the same spot where you keep everybody together. 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.920 So I do think, like I didn't never thought about 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.319 it that way, shortening the course, making a course really 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.200 short should achieve that. I think the thing that you 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.640 did too is with it being the way it's set up, 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.840 is you really have to think a lot of times 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.480 about going for a green because like what would happen 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:45.360 without some thoughtful design is that the long hitter would 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.840 just be able to overpower a golf course from the 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:53.199 same tease, but with some thoughtful design, Like there are 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.200 holes out there, Like one that jumps to mind is 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.160 the ninth hole that goes down is like I'm I 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.200 looked at that and I'm like, I don't I don't 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:03.520 think I want anything. 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:04.800 To do with the driver here, you know. 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.680 So Alston, I'm laying back to where you know, the 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:11.560 people that are hitting it to forty off the tee 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:13.680 that we're hitting to the same spot right. 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.200 Yeah, and there's you know, there's other holes where you know, 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.240 the fairway bunker on four is set up for only 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.720 a long hitter who it's a good drive and just 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:25.679 turns it over a little more left than he wants to. Yes, 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:27.880 he's going to find the bunker and that's a really 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:28.720 bad place to be. 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:30.439 I was at that bunker. 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.160 And ninety percent of us, the rest of us don't 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:34.200 have to worry about that one. 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:35.079 Yeah. 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.360 Yeah, so that that makes sense, like the community aspect 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.079 of it. So are they they're playing to set it 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:41.680 up that way? 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:42.720 Yeah. 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.280 We went back and forth on it for quite a while, 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:50.160 you know, so everything that the Kaiser's own right now, 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:55.480 there's five tea markers and they do surveys of their 0:11:55.600 --> 0:12:00.840 customers like religiously, and sixty five percent of the people 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:04.880 play from the same team marker, the Green tea marker, 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.080 which is kind of the middle of the five, and 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:14.440 literally five to seven percent of their customers play every 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:19.280 other one of the tee options. But they're in the 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:23.360 resort business, and there's that thought that the customer is 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.120 always right, and if the customer really likes playing the 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.280 Orange teas, do we want to take that away from them, 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.360 or shouldn't we just set this up the same way 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:35.880 we do for everything else. And it took a while 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:37.640 to get for him to. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:38.400 Think that through. 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.280 He really had to see all the golf holes before 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.079 he got comfortable with the idea that, yeah, we can 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.760 just kind of put most people on any one of 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.280 these two or three back tees you've got, and then 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.720 you know, my dad will play from up there with 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.400 you know, the older guys that just want to play 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.600 it shorter and have some chance of getting to some 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.480 of the part are fours in two and I think 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.439 it's gonna work really well that way, fingers crossed. 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:09.719 But you know, they'll. 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.920 Be taking a lot of surveys of people as to 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:15.200 how they like that, so I'm sure I'm gonna hear 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.520 a lot about it after a full year of use. 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:23.320 This is uh, this topic. I'm like, I just thought 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.760 of something in my head. And you know, about a 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:31.320 year ago, I went to one of Thomas Keller, who's 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.280 like the you know, one of the most famous chefs 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:34.559 in the. 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.680 World restaurants and the French laundry. 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.880 Yeah, so I went to his restaurant Ad Hoc, which 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.360 is just down the street. It's a little bit more casual, 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:48.120 and the restaurant has no menu. You you get what 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.000 they what they're making. They ask you if you have 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.760 any allergies, and if you don't have any allergies or 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.160 food aversions, this is what's coming out, right, if you 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.720 have allergies, they make tweaks and stuff like that. But 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:04.320 the the thing I loved about it is like, you 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.439 know this this guy, whether you could agree or disagree 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.200 that he's one of the best chefs of the world, 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.640 whatever it is, I'm going to his restaurant. 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:11.920 I thought. 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:13.760 I was thinking about it like the whole way home, 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:18.200 is like, like why why should I pick what I 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.200 want to eat at somebody? And if I'm going to 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.600 one of the greatest chef's restaurant, why should I pick 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:26.240 what I eat? 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:26.880 Right? 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:30.040 Like Yeah, it's like you're going to dinner at his house. Yeah, 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:31.600 I'm getting five choices. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.000 So like the same thing kind of I'm just thinking 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:41.400 about this through is like with golf architecture. Architects designed 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.200 these golf courses and then the setup is kind of 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:50.520 like the menu right right, and we put all this 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.560 this menu and then everybody decides where they wanted to play. 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.280 But like have you ever thought like and have you 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:57.720 ever done this? 0:14:57.840 --> 0:14:59.720 Have you ever had a client that said, like, can 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:01.920 you say, could you set this golf course up for 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:06.840 us twenty five different ways? And we will just rotate 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.800 how we use the golf course setup. Like That's what 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.400 I'm thinking, is like, why why aren't architects setting up 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.400 a golf course and creating setup plans for a golf course. 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.600 Oh, we would drive ourselves crazy doing that. I mean 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.800 we we kind of do. We think through the different 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.520 tea options and yeah, it'd be cooler to play this 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.120 way than that way. I've certainly thought of like alternate 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.800 set up ideas for a bunch of my courses, everything 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.200 from like Lost Students a lot. There's a lot, there's 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.880 several holes that you there's a pretty good walk back 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.360 to the tee. Most of the time I play Lost 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.880 Dunes with a bag over my shoulder. I just play 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.320 the nearest tea to the last green. Sometimes it's the 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.440 forward tea on like five holes, it's the all the 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.040 way back tea on like eight holes. You know, it's 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.040 just wherever's close and it's just the shortest walk and 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.240 it's a good mix. You know, it's not the blue teas, 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.280 it's not the white, it's not the red teas. It's 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.000 some of all of them, but it's it's kind of 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.720 a it's a decent combination that really works out well. 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.160 You know, bally Neal was the first golf course that 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.480 I was involved with that decided not to put out 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.400 team markers. I'll let the members just pick, and I think, 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:21.200 I think that's cool. It's a great tradition there. But 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.240 the one thing that I noticed from that is when 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.480 you remember, you know the golf course really well, and 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.640 you pick where you're going to tee off from, you 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:32.520 pick far enough forward that you don't have to worry 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.640 about carrying the bunker. You make it easy for yourself, 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.840 and it's like that kind of defeats the purpose. The 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:41.200 bunker is out there, so at least some people will 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.840 have to make a choice instead of just getting them 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:48.240 all past it. So yeah, I would probably set up 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:52.800 golf courses differently than how they're set up from day 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.240 to day. But you know, the first couple of years 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.320 of the Renaissance Cup, I went out and set pin 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.360 positions and stuff, and then I was like, no, I 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.080 just want people to I just want every experience it 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.960 the way everybody else would normally. You know, that's that's 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.399 really the golf course. We don't need to set this 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.639 up super special for our event and it you know, 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.080 it drives me crazy to watch major championships and watch 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:24.960 the enormous setup stuff that they do and how different 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.480 they're trying to make it for the pros that week, 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.720 when if you just played wing foot from all the 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.520 way back and added up the scores, the best player 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.760 would probably win without all that effort. 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.920 Yeah, we had an event a couple weeks ago at 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.840 Old Barnwell and in the day before and we change 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.840 pins after we do thirty six holes, we change pins 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.600 and tease and we have like a drastically different golf course. 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.080 Like no way would be a golf course. 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.600 That you could enter a score into because it's not 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.880 going to match up with any slope and rating right 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.879 because the teas are all over the place. But Brian Schneider, 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.320 one of your longtime associates who designed the golf course 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.879 with Blake Conant, he came out the day before and 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.720 set it up and it was it was so fun 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:15.120 to talk through it and like you could see every hole. 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.960 There's so many ways you could set set these holes up. 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:19.959 But like it was so fun because you know, one 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.320 of the one of the long par fours that he 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.200 built was playing really short because of the wind, and 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:25.840 we knew the wind was gonna be the same way, 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:26.640 so it's like. 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:28.800 Playing super short. So we moved the tee way up. 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.960 And then it's like, so we know everybody's gonna be 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.600 forty yards away, fifty yards away. That hit a good drive, right, 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:37.639 They're gonna hit this up. There's like a little hidden 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.840 bunker that somebody might find. Brian and I are playing together. 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.080 Sure enough, he hits a great drive and I'm right 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.880 in the hidden bunker. But the key, the one thing 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:47.640 we did was we put it right over a bump. 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.040 So everybody's seeing this great drive up and it's like 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.360 funny because like, you know, a lot of people might 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:54.600 be like, why is there this little bump in front 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:57.200 of the green right? And then we put in Then 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.479 Brian puts the pin right there and everybody hitting it. 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.200 Like I heard these comments, like from so many people, 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.239 They're like, I hit it up to forty yards and 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.119 then I was like, I have to hit this to 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:11.200 twenty five feet left because I'm terrified, I know, if I, 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.720 if I, And it's just like I think, like, that's 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.320 what's missing a little bit, is like you had these 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:21.160 long you had longer hitters playing a way up tee 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:25.160 that they would never usually play, and then it showcases 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:29.760 like this little architectural feature that that you know, this 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.560 is the type of stuff that gets mixed up. And 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:36.199 it makes me think of this, this this restaurant, because 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.440 like you end up eating stuff that you would never 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:43.119 order and you're like, wow, that was incredible, right, And 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:47.000 I just wonder if that's another way that architecture from 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:49.399 a setup perspective could be pushed forward. 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:52.880 Well, we could. You know, one of the things that 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.840 Alistair McKenzie did, that famous drawing of Saint Andrews. Alistair 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:02.840 McKenzie helped them codify the championship poll locations one hundred 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.520 years ago and they still pretty much go back to 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:09.840 that guide and use them for the fall meeting of 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.879 the RNA and for any big tournaments that are there. 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:17.440 So yeah, there is space for architects to be more 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:21.959 involved in that, but you can't set it up that 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.479 way on an everyday basis, or at least you'd have 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.200 to have you know, somebody like Brian Palmer at Tera 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.200 E D. He would he'd do that every day if 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.480 you let him. He'd set it up completely different every 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:38.120 day and keep it interesting. But now he's got three 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.159 courses maintained instead of one, so he'd never ard doing that. 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.000 So it was back to SEJ. We had a little 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:46.840 diversion here. 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.560 I remember you talking about and it was your first 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:56.800 project with the Kaiser family. It was Pacific Dunes where 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.320 you had a little bit of at that point point 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:06.040 non traditional routing and you know where the scorecard you 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.359 had these back to, you know, a lot of par threes. 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.119 You had par thirty four on the front nine right, 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:15.040 and and then you know, it was a moment of like, 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:19.119 you know, you're showing the routing to Mike Kaiser and 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.600 you're and then you put the put the pars. 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:23.439 On the card. I remember this story. 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.920 Is this a little bit of a look where architecture 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:31.520 has gotten to that you're able to create this golf 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:35.639 course at Sedge Valley that like makes Pacific Dunes in 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:40.399 terms of golf course theory feel very traditional. 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.240