Speaker 1: Pushkin. Kentucky singer songwriter Sturgil Simpson is used to doing
Speaker 1: what he wants one he wants, at least until contracting
Speaker 1: COVID in early March sidelined him. After a rough month
Speaker 1: long battle with the virus, Sturgil was itching to get
Speaker 1: back into the studio, so in October he released a
Speaker 1: surprise bluegrass album that masterfully reworks his back catalog, called
Speaker 1: Cut and Grass Volume One. Sturgel was in his mid
Speaker 1: thirties when he found fame as a country artist in Nashville.
Speaker 1: He had already lived at full life, including the stint
Speaker 1: in the Navy and years spent working in Salt Lake
Speaker 1: City rail yards. His outsider status in Nashville only boosted
Speaker 1: his outlaw peel, but as time passed, Sturgil began to
Speaker 1: despise the relentless expectations of the major label system. So
Speaker 1: in true fashion, Sturgil has now taken back control of
Speaker 1: his career and returned to his independent roots. In this
Speaker 1: interview with Rick Rubin, Sturgel explains why is bluegrass album
Speaker 1: is the purest expression of his work, why it bothers
Speaker 1: him that people often overlook the stories and the songs,
Speaker 1: and why being classified as a country star has been
Speaker 1: perhaps the biggest detriment to his career. This is broken
Speaker 1: record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmondon.
Speaker 1: Here's Rick Rubin and Sturgill Simpson. What's happening in Maine?
Speaker 1: Oh no much man. Sunday morning is a donut day
Speaker 1: around these parts. So for the kids, So let's my
Speaker 1: daddy's day to get up early and go handle breakfast
Speaker 1: and all that from is donuts only on Sundays. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: only on Sundays and only for the kids. I don't
Speaker 1: I don't touch those shit. So what's your what's your diet? Like? Overall?
Speaker 1: Mostly I just try to monitor blood pressure. Ever since
Speaker 1: the it's nothing that's gonna like cause a lot of
Speaker 1: cholesterol and things like that. Blood pressure or blood oxygen.
Speaker 1: Blood pressure? Really, how did COVID affect your blood pressure? Uh?
Speaker 1: The early onset, everything was just insanely high. When I
Speaker 1: went to the hospital. My initial reading when I checked
Speaker 1: into that R was like one eighty seven over one
Speaker 1: sixty four, about to stroke out like an old man.
Speaker 1: So is that a normal COVID? I hadn't heard that
Speaker 1: one before, you know, I'm not sure. I Honestly, I
Speaker 1: was pretty obsessive about it for a couple of months
Speaker 1: after I had it, and then now I feel like
Speaker 1: I have superpowers, but so I've gotten kind of lazy.
Speaker 1: I don't know where the preliminary studies are coming out,
Speaker 1: but I mean, septems are sort of all over the place.
Speaker 1: For me, it was just this really intense frontal lobe
Speaker 1: headache and some severe chest tightness, which is what led
Speaker 1: me to have her take me in. Yeah, did you
Speaker 1: did you know people who had it before you had it? No? Man.
Speaker 1: We we played the last show of our tour on
Speaker 1: March tenth and Charleston, South Carolina, and it was only
Speaker 1: that day that there was any type of mainstream media awareness,
Speaker 1: where like when all the panic buttons started going off
Speaker 1: and we were all just sort of like, WHOA, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people back here, you know. So the
Speaker 1: next day we had off. We're supposed to be heading
Speaker 1: to I think Virginia or Philly for some shows that weekend,
Speaker 1: and my wife and I were still in Charleston. I
Speaker 1: was just like, man, I don't feel right, Like I
Speaker 1: was just physically just I don't know how to even
Speaker 1: describe it. Man, it was so the most intense fatigue
Speaker 1: I felt in a long time. And you know this job,
Speaker 1: if there's one thing that you become accustomed to, it's fatigue.
Speaker 1: But this was something different. So and then that that
Speaker 1: day I just told her. I was like, I don't think.
Speaker 1: I think I need to go home and rest, like
Speaker 1: something's not right. I can't breathe, and all the inner
Speaker 1: voices like I probably got this shit in Europe, like
Speaker 1: here we go. And then the next morning I was
Speaker 1: in the hospital, so wow, and how long we in
Speaker 1: the hospital for? Oh? I was just there for about
Speaker 1: six or seven hours. They would and well, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: even test me. And then the doctors spent about forty
Speaker 1: minutes sitting on my bed with his mask off, telling
Speaker 1: me all the reasons why I couldn't possibly have contracted
Speaker 1: and it wasn't Europe at that time, and it was
Speaker 1: so rare and all the stuff we now know to
Speaker 1: be completely false, and not to complain, there's a whole
Speaker 1: lot of people in a hell of a lot worse
Speaker 1: shape than I was. But so how did you know
Speaker 1: you had it if they wouldn't test you? Just what
Speaker 1: they were saying about symptoms, And it felt like I
Speaker 1: had a ratchet strap going on around my chest, and
Speaker 1: my wife had been really fatigued and tired too, And
Speaker 1: that initial onset only lasted for a couple of days.
Speaker 1: Those those symptoms all sort of evaporated as fast as
Speaker 1: they came on, and then I was just really tired
Speaker 1: for about two or three weeks. I felt just you know,
Speaker 1: took like two naps a day, which is very unlike me.
Speaker 1: What made it better? Because you didn't take any therapeutic drugs? Actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: my booking agent JL brought me a big old cornucopia
Speaker 1: basket of like holistic medicines and vitamins and a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of you know, detoxifants and stuff. I
Speaker 1: was just drinking tea, a lot, a lot of water,
Speaker 1: and plus we live out we're pretty secluded. I probably
Speaker 1: overshot it on the solution, to be honest, and so
Speaker 1: just to eating a lot of vegetables and trying to
Speaker 1: be healthier and going for walks and uh. And then
Speaker 1: I think it was around March twelfth or thirteenth thousand
Speaker 1: in hospital and we didn't actually get tested until the first,
Speaker 1: very very early April, and I was still still detected
Speaker 1: like positive. Wow result so I must have had a
Speaker 1: really large viral load or exposure. I guess for it too.
Speaker 1: I'll stick around that long. I don't know. And do
Speaker 1: you have any um, like, do you have asthma or
Speaker 1: any Uh? No, no, allergic to anything. No, my lungs
Speaker 1: are huge, man, I got like big fat swimmer lungs.
Speaker 1: So the whole tour, you know, we played nine or
Speaker 1: ten shows I can't remember, and like something wasn't right.
Speaker 1: I remember vividly knowing I just couldn't get a real
Speaker 1: deep inhale on stage. And I've lost like twenty pounds
Speaker 1: before the tour. I was really making a conscious of
Speaker 1: it to be healthy, and I was living cleaner. I
Speaker 1: stopped smoking pot and all that shit, you know, and
Speaker 1: and just every night I was like, what is it? God,
Speaker 1: I'm old, Like this is middle age. It's here now.
Speaker 1: You know something's going on. But I guess it was
Speaker 1: just slowly metabolizing through my system. But you you essentially
Speaker 1: beat it with no Western medicine. You're saying, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: just healthy. It was, you know, I mean it sucked.
Speaker 1: I've definitely never woken up in my entire life and
Speaker 1: said I need to go to the emergency room. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and this was like something's very not right here, and yeah,
Speaker 1: and then it went away. And then you know, some
Speaker 1: friends like Prime passed away that was pretty close after.
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, It's it's so funny to me
Speaker 1: that you see all the denial and people just falling
Speaker 1: at fear, moo, hungering or whatever. We were here renting
Speaker 1: a house on the East coast, and the guy we
Speaker 1: were renting from he got it, was in the hospital
Speaker 1: for a while, like the handyman who I would constantly
Speaker 1: have to ask him to mask up, tell me come
Speaker 1: over in the lard. We kind of look at me laugh.
Speaker 1: He was in the hospital for two weeks just recently,
Speaker 1: so you know he's not laughing now. But it's it's
Speaker 1: some real shit, man. Absolutely, Man, I'm so glad you're
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're over it. It's like I said, now,
Speaker 1: it's I feel strangely sort of rejuvenated. I haven't felt
Speaker 1: I'm probably just from being off and having rest for
Speaker 1: the first time eight years, but I feel pretty great
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, tell me about Kentucky. You grew up
Speaker 1: in Kentucky. What's it like growing up there? And again,
Speaker 1: I'm really asking how to ignorance. I know very little.
Speaker 1: In some ways not at all what most people probably think,
Speaker 1: and in a lot of ways exactly like that. Kentucky's
Speaker 1: a weird state. Depending on what corner or region you're in,
Speaker 1: you might as well be in different worlds. I'm originally
Speaker 1: from southeastern Kentucky or the Appalachian region, so um, you know,
Speaker 1: we used to be coal mining, strip mining country, bluegrass country.
Speaker 1: And then my dad had a he was a state trooper,
Speaker 1: kind of ran the gamut of that career, and I
Speaker 1: think when when I was young, he was doing some
Speaker 1: more sketchy kind of work that put a lot of
Speaker 1: stress on my mom in their marriage when I was
Speaker 1: a young kid. So I think we ended up moving.
Speaker 1: He took a transfer and got out of doing that stuff,
Speaker 1: and we ended it moving up to central Kentucky, eventually
Speaker 1: settling in a little town, Versailles, the locals called Sales.
Speaker 1: I remember, you know, it's a good place to grow up.
Speaker 1: But I do remember always feeling the wanderlust, you know,
Speaker 1: So I left. I left for boot camp and the Navy.
Speaker 1: I don't a week and a half, two weeks after
Speaker 1: I graduated high school, just ready to go and get out,
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, what was the music in the house
Speaker 1: that he grew up in, Like in the house I
Speaker 1: grew up, and my mom would listen to a lot
Speaker 1: of motown like Rod Stewart and stuff like that. And
Speaker 1: then she had she still had her old forty five
Speaker 1: when she was a teenager. And then my grandmother had
Speaker 1: she had one of those old you know, the furniture
Speaker 1: type record players had the built in speakers and he'd
Speaker 1: flip the list, had to reach down in and my
Speaker 1: grandmother just had a ton of old soul music and
Speaker 1: that's what she listened to. So those were probably the
Speaker 1: first records I was exposed to. And then CCR and
Speaker 1: I think the first song I learned how to play
Speaker 1: on guitar was probably Sunshine of Your Love. How old
Speaker 1: were you then? Probably was second grade? So I got
Speaker 1: my first guitar around second or third grade. And I
Speaker 1: remember why, I was like Nickelodeon was really big back then,
Speaker 1: you know, so I remember I was I watched the
Speaker 1: Monkeys when I was a little kid on TV. So honestly,
Speaker 1: those songs I had all those records, those songs which
Speaker 1: we now know were like Nielsen and Neil Neil Diamond Tunes,
Speaker 1: so you know, they're getting that melodic chop burned into
Speaker 1: your brain at a young age. And then an older
Speaker 1: cousin and also older next to her neighbor. Both of
Speaker 1: them were teenagers when I was in like i'd say,
Speaker 1: fifth grade, and they both corrupted me pretty good and proper.
Speaker 1: I mean, I was exposed to Appetite for Destruction and
Speaker 1: I don't know Man Hendricks and the whole Zeppelin box
Speaker 1: that found it all like probably I used to stay
Speaker 1: way too young, but now, I mean I responded immediately,
Speaker 1: so I guess it was right on time. You know,
Speaker 1: when you were a kid and you'd hear Jimmy Hendrix
Speaker 1: and you'd hear Appetite for Destruction, did it all seemed
Speaker 1: like it was music from the past? Or was it
Speaker 1: clear when something was more current and something was from
Speaker 1: the more distant past. I definitely think it was clear
Speaker 1: when things were more from a different era or just
Speaker 1: the way I remember like the sound of it, you know,
Speaker 1: it just sounded lived in and cooler. And but now,
Speaker 1: you know, appetite even that sonically to a fourth or
Speaker 1: fifth grader because at the time MTV was probably playing
Speaker 1: god knows what Poison and def Leopard videos add nauseum
Speaker 1: over and over. But I remember vividly seeing that video
Speaker 1: for Welcome to the Jungle come on because we were
Speaker 1: living in this apartment one summer and I couldn't go
Speaker 1: outside a mom and dad worked all day. I had
Speaker 1: to stay inside, and uh, I was so young, I
Speaker 1: couldn't really do much. So I was just sitting watch
Speaker 1: MTV all day and that video came on, man, and
Speaker 1: it was like you could just feel the danger, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. I was just like, oh shit,
Speaker 1: this is this is something entirely different, like this is real,
Speaker 1: you know. I remember, I remember that being so clear,
Speaker 1: like I gotta know everything about this, you know. And
Speaker 1: and then later on that year, I guess I hadn't
Speaker 1: really heard the record yet. And we had an older
Speaker 1: My next door neighbor was this older kid, Michael, and
Speaker 1: he had a navy blue Chevy Nova, and he'd like
Speaker 1: used to run away from home all the time, and shit,
Speaker 1: you know, he's a bad kid, and uh he was.
Speaker 1: He was basically woodson from from days and confused, and
Speaker 1: uh he pulled up one day just cranking that record
Speaker 1: in his car, and I was out. I was outside.
Speaker 1: I don't even know what I was doing, probably sitting
Speaker 1: on my button in grass and I heard it. I
Speaker 1: was just like, what is that man? And he and
Speaker 1: he was such a dick. He was just like, fuck,
Speaker 1: you've been kid in the caves, guns and roses man.
Speaker 1: And he gave me the cassette tape like he gave
Speaker 1: me the cassette and it still had had the original
Speaker 1: artwork in the middle with the robot jump in the
Speaker 1: fence and all that shit and men. I wore it out.
Speaker 1: My mom found it threw it away because she saw that,
Speaker 1: she saw the artwork and everything. I think I ended
Speaker 1: up buying like two more copies that ended up getting trashed.
Speaker 1: But that that record was a huge, a huge bomb
Speaker 1: going off for me. And then yeah, Cream Hendricks and
Speaker 1: then I had a big Clapton phase for a while.
Speaker 1: I got real into Clapton. I just like reading everything
Speaker 1: I could find about him, and then that takes you
Speaker 1: down these holes to you know, guys like Peter Green
Speaker 1: and all the John Male stuff, which which takes you
Speaker 1: back to the Chicago and Delta, and it was just
Speaker 1: this rabbit hole. Man. I was like a weird sixteen
Speaker 1: year old into a lot of shit that you know,
Speaker 1: it was probably nerdy, I guess looking back on it.
Speaker 1: Did you have many experiences of your mom taking away
Speaker 1: stuff and throwing it away? That record and the other
Speaker 1: one she pulled, she popped out of the tape deck
Speaker 1: and tossed out the car window. Once was Stepping Wolf
Speaker 1: when the Pusher came on, she was just like, no, sir,
Speaker 1: you know anything talking about pimping and pushing hose and
Speaker 1: selling drugs was probably nothing your mom. My mom once
Speaker 1: they're nine year old bumping too. My dad was a
Speaker 1: steak cop too, and he was probably the biggest supporter
Speaker 1: of it. He bought my first guitar and what was
Speaker 1: what was your dad's tasted music like rock and roll? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he took me. He took me to see Van Halen
Speaker 1: in like fourth or fifth grades, so it was always,
Speaker 1: you know, he liked a party. Do you ever go
Speaker 1: down rabbit holes of different kinds of music that you
Speaker 1: haven't listened to before? Absolutely? Yeah, I mean I think
Speaker 1: that's important. One year, one year to Blonde come out,
Speaker 1: that Frank Ocean record sixteen, maybe when Sailor's got I
Speaker 1: think it was around the same time A Sailors guy
Speaker 1: came out, and I was just I wanted to listen
Speaker 1: to something like so far away from anything that I
Speaker 1: did or understood. And I heard a song. A friend
Speaker 1: of mine play was listening to that and heard a
Speaker 1: song and I was just like, I remember being struck
Speaker 1: by the production values and the sounds, and I just
Speaker 1: was like, I have no idea what he's doing or
Speaker 1: how he made these noises, and that it really fascinated
Speaker 1: me to just stick my head in something that was
Speaker 1: so different than the tools that we use, you know.
Speaker 1: And I listened to that record for about a month straight.
Speaker 1: Must have been but yeah, a lot of hip hop, weirdly,
Speaker 1: maybe not. I don't know. One thing I never really
Speaker 1: got into, I guess was jazz other than the basics.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I predict you will maybe it's coming.
Speaker 1: Yeah he'll billy jazz. But let's talk about bluegrass a
Speaker 1: little bit in general. I know almost nothing about it.
Speaker 1: Tell me about what do you know about bluegrass? You
Speaker 1: could start from the beginning. Well, okay, I got out
Speaker 1: of the navy. I know, I know more now, I've
Speaker 1: forgotten a lot. In my twenties, I was obsessed, like
Speaker 1: scoured the earth kind of shit. And when I was younger,
Speaker 1: my grandfather I wrote this little letter sent out with
Speaker 1: the record. He my paternal grandfather, was obsessed with it.
Speaker 1: It's he thought about, spent his entire later years going
Speaker 1: to festivals and it's always listened to. Oh to the
Speaker 1: point it would drive my mom crazy, and he would
Speaker 1: always trying to push it on me, you know, even
Speaker 1: like a real young age. But my palette wasn't ready, man,
Speaker 1: because it's it's very complex music. You know, it's always
Speaker 1: recorded or would you see people play it live? Mostly
Speaker 1: field recordings. And then he took me to a festival
Speaker 1: one year out the horse Park and it was like
Speaker 1: that was that I do remember vividly feeling like I
Speaker 1: was watching magic because these guys were like dancing around
Speaker 1: the mic. It was old school, you know, it's still
Speaker 1: early eighties. And then in Jackson, where I'm from, every
Speaker 1: Labor Day they had this a festival in the city
Speaker 1: called the Honey Festival, and on Friday nights, I think
Speaker 1: they have rock bands, and on Saturday night it was
Speaker 1: bluegrass and all the old timers. I mean, dude, it
Speaker 1: was like something right out of a time where these
Speaker 1: guys would come down from the Hollers and the Hills,
Speaker 1: like in their start shirts and overalls and dances this
Speaker 1: ship and it was like probably the last of that stuff,
Speaker 1: you know, time capsule kind of thing, but those images
Speaker 1: are burned into my head and so that was really
Speaker 1: the early exposure. But then it wasn't until I got
Speaker 1: out of the military. I'd gotten off some pretty pretty
Speaker 1: heavy drugs. I was kind of floating pretty hard for
Speaker 1: about a year and I got home. I was clean.
Speaker 1: I was just like dealing with all that, like the
Speaker 1: shame spiral and everything, and like trying to figure out
Speaker 1: my mom would remarried. Nothing, everything was just uplifted. You
Speaker 1: went into the military just to escape escape home, but well, yeah,
Speaker 1: escape home. And also I kind of got in some trouble.
Speaker 1: I got really lucky, but I got in some trouble
Speaker 1: my senior year of high school, just doing shit I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have been. And it was sort of like a
Speaker 1: wake up call. What was the experience? Your service experience?
Speaker 1: Like what it was peacetime for starters, And I was
Speaker 1: stationed overseas, the majority of it in Asia, Southeast Asia,
Speaker 1: and we'd go a lot of places I would have
Speaker 1: never seen otherwise. And it turned into some songs later
Speaker 1: on in life, thankfully. But you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of experiences that were eye opening, a lot
Speaker 1: of expensive experiences that were probably things I could have
Speaker 1: done without. Things I wish I hadn't seen older dudes
Speaker 1: I hadn't. I wish I hadn't been exposed to, you know,
Speaker 1: sailors in life. That comes with that, and you just
Speaker 1: hard to wash a lot of that shit off man um.
Speaker 1: But then a lot of a lot of most a
Speaker 1: lot of drinking and partying, to be honest with you,
Speaker 1: and and uh, a lot of girls. That kind of thing,
Speaker 1: like what you do when you're stuck in this like tyrannical,
Speaker 1: oppressive environment with lots of sharp corners and gray paint,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like as an artist, it
Speaker 1: was like the fuck have I done? You know, and
Speaker 1: you're you're stuck. We'd go out to see sometimes like
Speaker 1: ninety one hundred and eight days, you know, so like
Speaker 1: it's basically prison. I mean, you're basically in prison eating
Speaker 1: better food maybe, I don't know. So I got out
Speaker 1: and I was just ready to I was ready to
Speaker 1: not be that anymore, and I went a little too
Speaker 1: buck wild. How long were you in for long enough
Speaker 1: about three years. Yeah, And it's like I said, I
Speaker 1: just sort of burned it at both ends. And I
Speaker 1: came home and I was really lost, man, I was
Speaker 1: really lost and probably severely depressed, and serotonin levels were
Speaker 1: still finding their way home and that kind of ship.
Speaker 1: And was driving down a row one day and I
Speaker 1: heard it was a Monroe Brothers song, and I want
Speaker 1: to I'm trying to remember what the song was. It
Speaker 1: wasn't something as easy as it was, like a deep cut,
Speaker 1: probably long journey home or something, man, and I had
Speaker 1: to pull the chuck over. I was just like the tears,
Speaker 1: just it just it slam me in the chest. But everything,
Speaker 1: like whatever it was, was extremely visceral connection, an emotional
Speaker 1: reaction to that music. And then for the next i'd
Speaker 1: say seven or eight years, I don't give a fuck
Speaker 1: about anything else. Was it in the song itself or
Speaker 1: were you reconnecting to something from childhood by hearing it.
Speaker 1: It was the inflection of their voices, It was the lyric,
Speaker 1: the underlying like there I say, religious themes with like
Speaker 1: pain and lament and sorrow. But mostly man, it was
Speaker 1: just the voice, the voices and the music and the
Speaker 1: notes it took me back to like just childhood memories
Speaker 1: and like funerals and these things that you can't really
Speaker 1: put a finger on, but I knew like this is,
Speaker 1: this is where I'm from. We'll be right back with
Speaker 1: more Rick's conversation with Sturgil After a quick break, we're
Speaker 1: back with Rick Rubin and Sturgil Simpson. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: the Sailor's album a little bit. It's it's very different
Speaker 1: than what came before. How about how does it happen?
Speaker 1: I mean that one, I think more than any record
Speaker 1: of me I probably heard in my head or in
Speaker 1: terms of the blueprint before we went in what I
Speaker 1: wanted to do and what I wanted to incorporate. I
Speaker 1: was listening to a lot of Marvin Gay, a lot
Speaker 1: of Memphis Elva stuff at the time and wanted to,
Speaker 1: you know, meta modern. Was just me and the three
Speaker 1: other guys in the room. Once we set the mics
Speaker 1: up record, we didn't really move or change anything. It
Speaker 1: was It wasn't so the songs has all kind of
Speaker 1: been carved out live on the road and this three
Speaker 1: month tour prior to us going in and banging that
Speaker 1: record out, and so I knew I didn't want to
Speaker 1: do something that stripped down and raw again for starters.
Speaker 1: And then two I was was my first label record,
Speaker 1: and the only reason I really signed with the label
Speaker 1: was for a larger recording budget. So I was like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't really want to make a ten
Speaker 1: thousand dollar album because that's that's not what we're doing here.
Speaker 1: So and you have that toolbox now available and opened
Speaker 1: up to you, and I just kind of went all
Speaker 1: in on it, man, and wanted to make this really
Speaker 1: lush and cinematic sort of soundscape to accompany the story
Speaker 1: of the album. And some of it was notes. Some
Speaker 1: of like I told you, man, I had like probably
Speaker 1: four songs, five songs, and then we got in the
Speaker 1: studio and I had little pieces and things that there
Speaker 1: was nothing for me to play for the band, so
Speaker 1: they could chart out form and sit there and do
Speaker 1: the things. It was kind of like nobody really knew
Speaker 1: what was happening but me too much to Ferg's dismay
Speaker 1: some days, and but it all came together pretty pretty fast,
Speaker 1: I think four four or five days maybe, And so
Speaker 1: you did the basic tracks with the band and then
Speaker 1: all of the orchestration happened after. Yeah, we overdubbed the
Speaker 1: strings and the horns later, but those were in your
Speaker 1: original vision for the songs. Those were always there. Some
Speaker 1: yes and no, but it was I think there was.
Speaker 1: There was definitely a moment once with that first three
Speaker 1: days of tracking, and I just looked at furg and
Speaker 1: I was like, we gotta do a cox this ship. Man.
Speaker 1: I was like, we gotta get we gotta get strings.
Speaker 1: I want to hear horns. He was. He just kind
Speaker 1: of set there, smoker a cigarette. He's like yeah, and
Speaker 1: then you know, so we went up to New York
Speaker 1: for a couple of days and recorded the Dap Kings
Speaker 1: and the and the String Quartet there at the Atlantic Studios. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then that's when I finally heard it, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. I was just like, Okay, there it is.
Speaker 1: It's such a surprise coming from the first two records.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like it's a total departure, but for me,
Speaker 1: not so much. I felt like getting away from other
Speaker 1: influences or maybe agendas. I was finally able to make
Speaker 1: the music I'd actually been influenced by and listening to
Speaker 1: as a kid growing up, which was more soul and
Speaker 1: rock and roll and things more so than like Hank
Speaker 1: Junior or Waylon Jennings, you know, whereas you moved to
Speaker 1: Nashville and I just had all these country songs, and
Speaker 1: I guess just not norm where to start. Well, this
Speaker 1: is what you do now, You make like these hard
Speaker 1: country records. And I love that music too, but I
Speaker 1: don't really hear a lot of my voice, especially on
Speaker 1: that first one, met a modern more so because like
Speaker 1: I said, we worked it out on the road and
Speaker 1: Dave did a good job on the console and Mike
Speaker 1: choices and stuff like that. But Sailor's Guide was honestly
Speaker 1: for me, I guess stretching my legs a little bit
Speaker 1: more for the first time and talk about the new
Speaker 1: one a little bit. The grass was there was zero
Speaker 1: planning on that one. That was definitely okay. Well, I've
Speaker 1: always wanted to make a bluegrass record. Now I have
Speaker 1: the time. I'm not going on a tour anytime in
Speaker 1: the next two or three years. So I was feeling better.
Speaker 1: I think I was mostly just excited that I was
Speaker 1: finally feeling good. By June early June, and I called
Speaker 1: furg up and I was like, man, I've always wanted
Speaker 1: to do this. We did this big fundraiser thing online
Speaker 1: because I had this We've been on Instagram for maybe
Speaker 1: a month or two, and then just everything hit the fan.
Speaker 1: We had incorporated some charity stuff into the tour with
Speaker 1: the ticket sales, and I was just trying to figure
Speaker 1: out a way to continue that and actually hold through
Speaker 1: on that promise. So and then it turned in, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a big tornado in Nashville and all the COVID shit,
Speaker 1: and we just we were like, well, we could raise
Speaker 1: some money from music cares because everybody's out of work now,
Speaker 1: and the fans totally blew it out of the water. Man,
Speaker 1: I don't know what I expected all and all, we
Speaker 1: raised about a half million dollars a thing, so amazing.
Speaker 1: I was just like, well, I gotta put a record
Speaker 1: out now, because I promised him I would. So I
Speaker 1: also knew I was about to have at least the
Speaker 1: rest of this year off. Yeah, and I knew I
Speaker 1: wanted to spend a lot of time folks and on
Speaker 1: my kids and home things that had sort of slipped
Speaker 1: through the cracks because of the work. And I didn't
Speaker 1: want to sit around the next six months thinking about
Speaker 1: what that next thing would be. So I just said,
Speaker 1: fuck it, let's just do the next thing now and
Speaker 1: get it in the can. And then it was I'm
Speaker 1: glad I did it because now I've just been fishing
Speaker 1: and changing diapers for the last couple of months while
Speaker 1: we set up putting this thing out. It's great, though,
Speaker 1: I really love it. Had you ever looked at the
Speaker 1: songs through the filter of bluegrass before making the record, well,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, they were all written on a D
Speaker 1: twenty eight, probably sung on played a little too fast,
Speaker 1: just because that's where my natural I have a tendency
Speaker 1: to push things a little bit ahead, like most blue
Speaker 1: grass pickers, and so when you make country records, you
Speaker 1: basically just slow everything down. I could put some form
Speaker 1: changes here and there to make it stretch out and phrases,
Speaker 1: but they were all I mean, no bullshit, man. I'd
Speaker 1: say eighty percent of them were written as more as
Speaker 1: bluegrass songs than anything. So so these renditions of the
Speaker 1: songs are closer to how they were originally written, yeah,
Speaker 1: before they became country. They're written closer to who I
Speaker 1: am more naturally, that's my voice and my instrument and
Speaker 1: like I saved, like if I had to express myself
Speaker 1: in a medium as truly as possible, this would be it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's one of the things that came away from listening
Speaker 1: to it was the lyrics. Now, even though I've heard
Speaker 1: these songs before, there's something about hearing lyrics when there's
Speaker 1: not drumming going on that they hit me in a
Speaker 1: different way. You understand them in a different way. Generals,
Speaker 1: it feels like this this album really is the storytelling
Speaker 1: version of the story of these songs, where it's really
Speaker 1: about the lyrics. Thanks man. It's always been something I've
Speaker 1: never said anything about it, but it has always sort
Speaker 1: of bothered me that the last six or seven years,
Speaker 1: I put these records out and I'm writing all the songs,
Speaker 1: and anybody talks about is my voice or the production
Speaker 1: or the instruments, But it's like they're missing the story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and even some of the fans aren't really listening, or
Speaker 1: at least some of the fans I used to have,
Speaker 1: because they've kind of fallen off now that they figured
Speaker 1: out more who I am. So it's been it's all
Speaker 1: just learning and growth, I think. But finally hearing these
Speaker 1: songs the way they were probably always intended to is
Speaker 1: very gratifying for me. Is it is it acceptable to
Speaker 1: do songs that are not in the cannon in the
Speaker 1: bluegrass style? I don't. I think anything is acceptable if
Speaker 1: you mean, I'm just asking the bluegrass community. I don't
Speaker 1: know anything about bluegrass. I mean, I was told like
Speaker 1: it was unacceptable to put horns on a country record,
Speaker 1: even though I grew up in my grandfather's car here
Speaker 1: and merl Agger do it, So I don't. I don't know, man.
Speaker 1: I guess it depends who you ask, based on their
Speaker 1: their criteria of what fits their identity that week. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I made what I thought to be a
Speaker 1: true bluegrass record with some songs that are probably country
Speaker 1: songs and also bluegrass songs. So yeah, I feel like
Speaker 1: it's got potential to turn more people onto bluegrass who
Speaker 1: might not already be into it. I feel like that's
Speaker 1: the real potential that's held in this world. That's the goal.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've always been trying to turn people on.
Speaker 1: We've went with earlier stuff, maybe to country music that
Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily be into it, or to change their opinions
Speaker 1: of what it could be, and then it's been all
Speaker 1: this is weird to say, but having that word, that
Speaker 1: c word attached to my name as an artist has
Speaker 1: probably been more of a detriment to me in my
Speaker 1: career in terms of reaching my actual fan base than anything,
Speaker 1: because so many people well that don't listen to country music,
Speaker 1: they only know it by what they've been told the
Speaker 1: last twenty five years. To believe it is, you know,
Speaker 1: from watching awards shows on TV and stuff, or you know,
Speaker 1: I have no desire to sit here and talk shit
Speaker 1: about any of that crap but anymore. But it just
Speaker 1: is what it is, you know. Um So then you
Speaker 1: have to sort of point out, oh, we can also
Speaker 1: be this, you know. I don't know if artists would
Speaker 1: ever really give any of this stuff thought if they
Speaker 1: didn't have to sit down and answer questions when it
Speaker 1: was time to foot records about it. You know. I
Speaker 1: think sometimes it's interesting to think about though, Like I
Speaker 1: feel like we find clarity through through discussion if we
Speaker 1: think about things who wouldn't normally think about. And I
Speaker 1: don't know, I learned a lot through the conversations, you know. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, man, I'll tell you what, starting in this
Speaker 1: business at thirty five thirty six really actually taking a
Speaker 1: go at it trying to be a pro musician. I
Speaker 1: was damn near middle aged, unlike i'd say ninety five
Speaker 1: or even more percent of the people that start out
Speaker 1: at eighteen or nineteen, and this is all they ever know,
Speaker 1: you know. And I was so held bent at first
Speaker 1: on like I finally found something in my life to
Speaker 1: be ambitious about because we had a child on the way,
Speaker 1: and I knew, like, I have to make this work,
Speaker 1: it has to happen, it has to succeed. I gotta
Speaker 1: take care of my family. I want to have something
Speaker 1: I can look back on and know that like I
Speaker 1: didn't compromise whatsoever, and this is like, I did this
Speaker 1: the right way and it was very important to me
Speaker 1: and it still is. And then somewhere along the lines,
Speaker 1: you know, you get on the train and it's hard.
Speaker 1: I've always said, it's hard to tell how fast the
Speaker 1: train's going when you're on it. And next thing you know,
Speaker 1: you think, well, like you get in, you get sucked
Speaker 1: in or like manipulated in the music industry has a
Speaker 1: really scientifically applied methodology about making artists feel like if
Speaker 1: they don't keep treading water, they're gonna drown because everybody's
Speaker 1: got to keep generating their paychecks, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And if something's working, you want to keep working. So
Speaker 1: you just keep throwing fuel on the fire. And then
Speaker 1: next thing you know, you weigh up and you just
Speaker 1: completely burnt out, and you're like, how did this happen?
Speaker 1: Who was taking care of me to keep this from happening?
Speaker 1: And I realized that nobody was putting more pressure on
Speaker 1: me than I was. And I tell you two things again,
Speaker 1: there was two very distinct incidences that were wake up
Speaker 1: calls from me and very touchdown reminders. The first one
Speaker 1: was when I went to Merle Haggard's house for the
Speaker 1: very first time ever, and he I think Merle only
Speaker 1: won one Grammy in his career. And when you walked
Speaker 1: into the house, it was sitting on the floor used
Speaker 1: as a doorstopper to hold the screen door open, just
Speaker 1: scratched and be all to hell, And I was like,
Speaker 1: got it, you know what I mean? Yeah? And the
Speaker 1: second one was when Ferd when we came out to
Speaker 1: La to go to the awards, and when he took
Speaker 1: you came, he brought me to visit and meet you
Speaker 1: for the first time. And I can't Yeah, we were
Speaker 1: hanging out. We were there in the room that you're
Speaker 1: sitting in right now, and he asked you you got
Speaker 1: any records up for anything this year, Rick, And you said,
Speaker 1: I don't know, and I knew you weren't bullshitting, and
Speaker 1: I was like, that's it. I mean, that's it. Just
Speaker 1: just make art. Fuck the rest, you know. And and
Speaker 1: I've been trying to like commit and live in that
Speaker 1: headspace ever since, man, and just just block out all
Speaker 1: the trivial nous and the hedge of money. Yea of
Speaker 1: the system that makes us think we all have to
Speaker 1: end up on these lists every year, like standing at
Speaker 1: a podium giving little speeches because it doesn't have shit
Speaker 1: to do with anything about like connecting with human beings
Speaker 1: and making music. Yeah, there's so many distractions that can
Speaker 1: really get in the way and and putting the blinders
Speaker 1: on and focusing on making something that you love. That's
Speaker 1: all it's about. If you love it, it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: if anyone else likes it. And if you of it,
Speaker 1: there's a better chance someone else might like it because
Speaker 1: at least one person cares about it. You yeah, or
Speaker 1: it wasn't for that person, which is fine, but there's
Speaker 1: two or three other people out there that maybe everything
Speaker 1: I've done before wasn't for them, but this thing save
Speaker 1: their fucking life, you know, I don't know. It's hard
Speaker 1: to describe. How much do you take into consideration the
Speaker 1: audience in the making process when you're writing and when
Speaker 1: you're recording. Is it okay to say zero? Absolutely, that's
Speaker 1: the right answer. In the studio, I'm not thinking about
Speaker 1: how's this going to translate live? That's all. That's like
Speaker 1: a problem to worry about later, you know. It's really
Speaker 1: just it feel right? Does it sound right? Could this
Speaker 1: be better? Or is this gross enough? I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like these are thoughts that I have. More so, there
Speaker 1: are people are gonna like this. I think if you
Speaker 1: start thinking like that, you're gonna make some shitty records,
Speaker 1: for sure. Absolutely, That's that's why I asked a question.
Speaker 1: And so and there are so many artists who really
Speaker 1: do pollute their process thinking about the audience, and it
Speaker 1: really just undermines the whole, the whole enterpress. And you
Speaker 1: can hear that people just keep making the same records
Speaker 1: over and over. Then what are you What are you
Speaker 1: really chasing or serving? I guess, But well, the bluegrass thing. Honestly,
Speaker 1: this probably came more of That's what I was listening
Speaker 1: to me before we cut this. I was listening I
Speaker 1: love Van Morrison. Him and Marvin are probably my two
Speaker 1: favorite singers, and and I think I love Van Morrison
Speaker 1: even more because a lot of times it's hard for
Speaker 1: me to understand what he's saying. And that's a complaint
Speaker 1: that I get about my voice a lot. It's like
Speaker 1: the annunciation becomes far less important than the emotion behind
Speaker 1: the note, you know what I mean, Like you can
Speaker 1: just feel him squeezing and it's coming from all these
Speaker 1: different places as opposed to just like I am articulating now,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But listening to a lot
Speaker 1: of his stuff, I feel like with the bluegrass record,
Speaker 1: I feel more in tune to that kind kind of
Speaker 1: thing right now, maybe more of like a hillbilly astral
Speaker 1: week sort of. That would be like my dream record
Speaker 1: to make. Sounds pretty good, It's what I'd like to hear. Yeah, man,
Speaker 1: It's it's weird because I was one on social media
Speaker 1: at all until this year, and I you know, I
Speaker 1: don't want to be like some definitely have no desire
Speaker 1: in like hiding behind a public persona or some crafted
Speaker 1: image to sell records. So I don't know how to.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a detrimental at times, So I do engage
Speaker 1: with people even though people say not to. I mean,
Speaker 1: the fans are coming, they want to connect and know you,
Speaker 1: and I've realized that that platform is invaluable in the
Speaker 1: case you ever really wanted to represent yourself, as opposed
Speaker 1: to having go through the filter of the press or
Speaker 1: you know, a press release and hope that the narrative
Speaker 1: is what you intended it to be, where as opposed
Speaker 1: now like I could just I got a mic and
Speaker 1: a light in a computer. You're gonna line and say
Speaker 1: whatever I want. However I want to say it and
Speaker 1: it can't be twisted. So I think I'll always keep
Speaker 1: it for that if no other reason. But also like
Speaker 1: just seeing the love from people, man, and the really
Speaker 1: seeing the difference that music makes in people's lives, especially
Speaker 1: through shit like what's happening right now. It's been really
Speaker 1: motivating for me in a way, and sometimes the haters
Speaker 1: are the funniest part. Like you know, if you read
Speaker 1: that shit after a while, it truly doesn't mean anything anymore,
Speaker 1: and it's it almost. I told my wife like this summer,
Speaker 1: I would get on there and blast them back for
Speaker 1: like ten minutes fifteen minutes every day with my coffee.
Speaker 1: And I was told HER's like, it's kind of like
Speaker 1: my yoga now, Like I do that and then I
Speaker 1: don't look at it. I can go walk out in
Speaker 1: the woods and I just feel amazing, you know, so
Speaker 1: and eventually they go away. It's so funny also the
Speaker 1: social dynamic of it all, because if life isn't complex enough,
Speaker 1: it just fascinates me. Something. Last week she pointed out that,
Speaker 1: like I was, the record was number one on iTunes.
Speaker 1: My wife told me that. She was like, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's between you and Luna. This this a pop band.
Speaker 1: I was like, that's insane, you know, it's like the
Speaker 1: bluegrass record and a pop record. And I made a
Speaker 1: post about the absurdity that, and of course there was
Speaker 1: like you can't control that. It's like you've seen Ghostbusters too. No, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll spare you anyway. There's a river of slime and
Speaker 1: when you talk me into it, it bubbles up, and
Speaker 1: I think, well, that's like that's the Internet, you know,
Speaker 1: And of course, like some some slime bubbles started popping up,
Speaker 1: and it was teetering in some cases towards some some xenophobia,
Speaker 1: and I was just like, oh shit, like what did
Speaker 1: I What did I do? You know, I feels I
Speaker 1: feel responsible. You can't control you. You create this this
Speaker 1: ripple and then it turns into this other thing and
Speaker 1: it's out of your hands. So then all the all
Speaker 1: the lunar fans started coming at me on Twitter, man like.
Speaker 1: It was like, holy shit, this is amazing to watch
Speaker 1: in a way. Then I listened to the record and
Speaker 1: I was like, man, I kind of dig lima, this
Speaker 1: is actually pretty bumping. So I just said like, look, guys,
Speaker 1: you need to motivate. You know, the girls deserve they
Speaker 1: deserve more love and respect, and like if you want
Speaker 1: them at number one, you need to get off your
Speaker 1: ass and do the work. You know. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: where's my T shirt? I'm here for it. Orbit all
Speaker 1: the way and it turned into a really beautiful thing
Speaker 1: in the end. We'll be right back with Sturgill Simpson
Speaker 1: in just a moment. We're back with the rest of
Speaker 1: Rick's conversation with Sturgill Simpson. You said, when you came
Speaker 1: back from the Navy, you were depressed. How would you
Speaker 1: say your moods tend to run in general? Like what's
Speaker 1: your Oh, brou I'm a geminium, pretty mercurial. Uh I can.
Speaker 1: I can. I can either be the nicest, most giving,
Speaker 1: kindest human being on the planet or like I can
Speaker 1: definitely I'm aware, Like especially in the zone if I'm working,
Speaker 1: is it like that you're focused to the point of
Speaker 1: where niceties? No, man, it's environmental. I real to multiple's childhood,
Speaker 1: there's some trauma there and then and between between, Like
Speaker 1: just experienced military and then working railroad. I just wasn't.
Speaker 1: I was never in these nurturing environments, you know. I
Speaker 1: mean I was always in like shit needs to be
Speaker 1: done now world, and I don't have time for your
Speaker 1: fucking feelings. So coming into this world at thirty five
Speaker 1: and learning like, oh these are artists and sensitive feeling
Speaker 1: like I'm also a very sensitive dude. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: very emotional dude, And uh, We're all vulnerable. We all
Speaker 1: have like giant egos and the insecurity that comes with that,
Speaker 1: and learning how to be a better leader or just
Speaker 1: to empathize with people who although you need them to
Speaker 1: do a job, like they also have lives outside of that,
Speaker 1: and even people that have worked for me, like I
Speaker 1: have very clear expectations, you know, especially when you're paying
Speaker 1: people money, and not just musicians, Like I've lost friends
Speaker 1: and relationships around me just from like I am not
Speaker 1: happy with what you're doing and these my expectations, and
Speaker 1: then people start crying in the meeting and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden like okay, well, I guess I can't verbalize
Speaker 1: those things like that anymore. And these have been very
Speaker 1: very important lessons for me, like to know, everything is
Speaker 1: not a train that's forty five minutes late, but it's
Speaker 1: it's always circumstantial. It's not just you wake up in
Speaker 1: a bad mood one day and na, man, I probably
Speaker 1: got some some some shit going you know. I probably
Speaker 1: got me and Kanye got the same birthday. I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna leave it at that, you know. But all of that,
Speaker 1: with children and family and root the last four years
Speaker 1: is I'm feeling I had some I had some stuff
Speaker 1: going on. I'll just be really honest, without teetering up
Speaker 1: to like insurance policy, red flags and ships twenty seventeen
Speaker 1: and twenty eighteen, I got pretty dark. I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I think I just was out there too long. I
Speaker 1: was drifting too hard, and things got slippery and I
Speaker 1: fell back into some some ugly shit, especially on the road.
Speaker 1: And you know, you spend too much time alone in
Speaker 1: hotel rooms, man, and sometimes that translates into more escape
Speaker 1: and freedom on stage, and it's not necessarily a good thing.
Speaker 1: But and then I woke up to it and just decided,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm done, that it's never never happening again.
Speaker 1: And ever since then, it's just been like focusing on
Speaker 1: trying to be a better husband and the best father
Speaker 1: I can be, and not wasting this opportunity that I've
Speaker 1: been given. Was just to make art that will be
Speaker 1: here long after I'm gone and affect people that I'll
Speaker 1: never even know or meet, And like, when you really
Speaker 1: weigh the gravity of that, it's an immense responsibility. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I think the only people who I've ever met who've
Speaker 1: become successful musicians starting in their thirties are you and
Speaker 1: Bill Withers. I think you're the only you. I was
Speaker 1: just talking the other night on a zoom called Donald
Speaker 1: Glover about some other things, and he said the same
Speaker 1: thing his manager, Fan told me that once two years ago,
Speaker 1: and I watched that documentary and I love Bill Wither's music,
Speaker 1: but I didn't really ever know that much about his life,
Speaker 1: and it was kind of I was taking it back
Speaker 1: some of the similarities, especially in our life before music.
Speaker 1: He was in the Navy. I think he was from
Speaker 1: a West Virginia coltown. Hated the industry side of the business,
Speaker 1: the fickleness and the manipulation of it all was I
Speaker 1: was just like, whoa man? And then Donald, Yeah, Donald,
Speaker 1: we were just talking about the other night. And Bill also,
Speaker 1: I don't know he. I loved the interviews I have
Speaker 1: read that he gave Since then, it I feel like
Speaker 1: I understood and know that guy just how he handles
Speaker 1: those situations and those types of questions, and there's not
Speaker 1: a lot of fool suffering, I guess. Yeah. One of
Speaker 1: the things that was really interesting him out him as
Speaker 1: well is that his music is put in a box
Speaker 1: because of the genre that he came from, as you know,
Speaker 1: urban music really because he's black yea. But he has
Speaker 1: more in common with Bob Dylan than he does with
Speaker 1: most R and B. You know, he's really a singer songwright.
Speaker 1: He's a folk song folk folk song right basically with
Speaker 1: incredible feel incredible. Do you think yourself more as a
Speaker 1: guitar player, songwriter, singer, Like does the music come first?
Speaker 1: Or is it what you're saying? It just depends. Man.
Speaker 1: I've never made a record the same way twice, and
Speaker 1: that wasn't intentional. It's just the way it worked out.
Speaker 1: Like the way we approached Sound of Fury wasn't anything
Speaker 1: like Sailor's Guide or Metal Modern and cut and Grass
Speaker 1: was the easiest thing I've ever done, the fastest thing.
Speaker 1: But I mean, I played guitar every day I got
Speaker 1: I got a fifty four strap downstairs. That's like the
Speaker 1: first hour of my day every morning. But the songs,
Speaker 1: if I'm like, if you're asking, like where do the
Speaker 1: songs come from? Usually a melody or like me just
Speaker 1: play All my songs are written on acoustic guitars, and
Speaker 1: then I come up a little risks and things around
Speaker 1: them later. But it's always like a melody singing. Mostly
Speaker 1: it comes from it here, and usually the melody comes
Speaker 1: before the words. Usually a line will start things and
Speaker 1: then the rest comes generally pretty quick. I'm not one
Speaker 1: of those guys that like wakes up every day and
Speaker 1: says I'm gonna write for three hours and like trying
Speaker 1: to craft like a creative college essay or some shit.
Speaker 1: It really like, if it takes me more than forty
Speaker 1: minutes to write a song, it's probably not very good song.
Speaker 1: Do you write a lot of songs? It goes in phases.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty lazy. But when I sit down and do it, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll write like five or six in a week usually,
Speaker 1: But no, I don't sit down every day and be like,
Speaker 1: I'm a just a blue song writer. And God bless
Speaker 1: people that can do that. It's just not for me.
Speaker 1: Do you collect lines like yeah, over the course of
Speaker 1: your life, if you over hear a phrase or or
Speaker 1: an idea for a song, Yeah, a lot of a
Speaker 1: lot of scribbled napkins, a lot of like notes on
Speaker 1: your phone, where like you'll write a line and then
Speaker 1: six months later that ends up being the first thing
Speaker 1: in a chorus or something, or I hear somebody's A
Speaker 1: lot of songs come from hearing things, just observation. You'll
Speaker 1: hear people talking or pick something up and it's underlying
Speaker 1: meanings or turning things that weren't meant to be metaphors
Speaker 1: into them. Just play on words kind of stuff fascinates
Speaker 1: me more or anything. I guess have you ever written
Speaker 1: a song without having an instrument in your hand? Like?
Speaker 1: Has it ever come? For sure? At work? Like work,
Speaker 1: I find I don't have a job anymore, but when
Speaker 1: I worked at the railroad or when I was in
Speaker 1: the navy, just like purpose and daily monotonous purpose, like
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of songs and music and
Speaker 1: melody can come out of that, man Like Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: without without being conscious of a thing. Yeah, a lot
Speaker 1: of music comes to me like that when I'm not
Speaker 1: sitting down to write music. I wrote Turtles in the shower,
Speaker 1: you know, pretty much that whole entire first two verses
Speaker 1: just like came to me in a shower one morning,
Speaker 1: and I literally almost killed myself getting out of the
Speaker 1: shower to write it all down. What was it like
Speaker 1: working for the railroad? Actually I loved it, man? What
Speaker 1: was the job? What was your job? I started as
Speaker 1: a switchman on a switching yard, as like at this
Speaker 1: intermodal opera, the Union Pacific Yard, and then you kind
Speaker 1: of go through you work up like things that engineer
Speaker 1: would drive the trains. Our main job. It was like
Speaker 1: a main artery center for the entire western region United States.
Speaker 1: We'd have trains coming literally an X from all corners
Speaker 1: of the United States. They pull in and we'd have
Speaker 1: to tear them apart, put other cars on them, slough
Speaker 1: them off, build other trains, and then get them crewed
Speaker 1: and out the gate on time and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So it was like heavy, dude shit. You know. It
Speaker 1: definitely saw train rex and you know, big big boy
Speaker 1: pants type stuff. And I ended up. I became a
Speaker 1: yardmaster for a while, which is like you're in this
Speaker 1: pickup truck with eighteen radios and you're kind of coordinating
Speaker 1: all the movements of everything. And then they had a
Speaker 1: nighttime assistant manager position come open, and I decided more money,
Speaker 1: let's do it. Did that, and then I just by chance,
Speaker 1: about a year later, the main operations manager took a
Speaker 1: transfer and they offered me. They offered me the office
Speaker 1: and like running the operations of the yard, and I
Speaker 1: took it. And that's where I fucked up, or i'd
Speaker 1: probably still be there. I just you know, with the
Speaker 1: conference calls and all that gets literally screamed at by
Speaker 1: dudes I'll never meet in my life. Because the train
Speaker 1: came in two minutes late and left three minutes early
Speaker 1: instead of picking up an hour, you know, and I
Speaker 1: think I hit vaporlock in a way just like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is not this is not who I am. So
Speaker 1: I started playing or writing for the first time in
Speaker 1: about four years at night, and my wife, we weren't
Speaker 1: married at the time, and she was just like, she
Speaker 1: just set me down one night, you know, because she's like, look,
Speaker 1: I know your miserables is creating tension with you and me.
Speaker 1: This is what you should be doing, whether anything comes
Speaker 1: up or not. This is who you are, you know. Yeah, beautiful,
Speaker 1: And that was it, and we I think two three
Speaker 1: months later we had sold everything we couldn't fit in
Speaker 1: the Bronco and drove Nashville Wow two into two thousand
Speaker 1: ten a blue. And it's interesting if it wasn't for
Speaker 1: that change in jobs, like you say, like you you
Speaker 1: worked your way up the ladder at the point of
Speaker 1: where it didn't suit you anymore, and luckily we get
Speaker 1: we get your music now. Yeah, I mean, before I
Speaker 1: took the management gig man, I was out on the
Speaker 1: yard like twelve hours a day, and it was good.
Speaker 1: We'd work three days, have three days off, work four,
Speaker 1: have four off. You know, Salt Lake City's beautiful. Man,
Speaker 1: it's kind of a well kept secret. The yard was
Speaker 1: out in the west part of the valley, in the desert,
Speaker 1: so like my office was looking at the Okrah Mountain
Speaker 1: Range and over here is the western face of the Rockies,
Speaker 1: and there's three hundred days of sunshine, and uh, I
Speaker 1: very well possibly might still be there if all of
Speaker 1: that hadn't gone the way it did, which is a
Speaker 1: strange thing to think about. Yeah, it's amazing how so
Speaker 1: much of this is out of our control, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: control is an interesting concept. Letting go of that I
Speaker 1: think has been the greatest lesson for me. But also
Speaker 1: that job taught me a lot that most musicians probably
Speaker 1: don't know, like logistics and overhead and keeping numbers in
Speaker 1: the blacks. So like, you know, even the people around me.
Speaker 1: I keep a pretty tight grip on my business. And
Speaker 1: I'm thankful for that because I see, I see how
Speaker 1: easy it would be for a lot of artists just
Speaker 1: be copacetic and complacent and then you wake up and
Speaker 1: you like, why am I broke? You know? So that
Speaker 1: would be that's something in terms of dealing with the
Speaker 1: mechanics and especially the record labels and then I self
Speaker 1: manage myself for about three years, so I learned more
Speaker 1: about the business than I probably want to know. Just
Speaker 1: out of sheer necessity. I would sit on the lawyers
Speaker 1: that make them explain things to me and like really
Speaker 1: the back channels of how it all unfortunately works. So
Speaker 1: and that's been good, and it's terms of like working
Speaker 1: with my friends, people like Tyler and Margot, I've been
Speaker 1: able to hopefully give them some pretty valuable advice to
Speaker 1: keep them from making even some of the mistakes that
Speaker 1: I made, knowing what I know, you know, and I
Speaker 1: think it's just finding a new path and what is
Speaker 1: ultimately a wild, wild West again, and there's a real
Speaker 1: opportunity for artists to put a lot of the power
Speaker 1: back in their own hands. Yeah, any recommendations you have
Speaker 1: for artists in general, don't sign anything. There's no such
Speaker 1: thing as a good record deal, even if you've got
Speaker 1: a great one, it's it's essentially a bad loan from
Speaker 1: a really shitty bank. And in this day and age,
Speaker 1: if you've got work ethic and hustle and you're not
Speaker 1: afraid to go out and do the laps, and by
Speaker 1: that I mean go out and build a fan base
Speaker 1: as opposed to go onto an industry town and waiting
Speaker 1: for a bunch of suits to make it happen for you,
Speaker 1: because that ain't gonna happen. They're not taking game anymore.
Speaker 1: And if that does happen, I guess those are the
Speaker 1: people that like wake up and don't know how hard
Speaker 1: they just got fleeced a year later. But if you
Speaker 1: want to play music, do what musicians do and go
Speaker 1: play music. You know. That's that's what I did, and
Speaker 1: that's the only reason I'm sitting you're talking to you
Speaker 1: right now. Yeh, make good music, play good shows, wash rents. Repeat.
Speaker 1: My wife, we're okay. But like she told me one
Speaker 1: time and I realized she's a serious I probably turned
Speaker 1: down more money than I made just because of what
Speaker 1: came with it, you know, because like that, a lot
Speaker 1: of it really kind of freaks me out because you're
Speaker 1: as an introverted only child, you're letting a lot of
Speaker 1: shit into your bubble and there it is, you know,
Speaker 1: And I know there will be a day where I
Speaker 1: probably don't do this anymore. Yeah, So I wonder, I
Speaker 1: wonder if that's true, because if this really is what
Speaker 1: you're meant to be doing. You can do this for
Speaker 1: a long time, and in some ways, by choosing not
Speaker 1: to take the check, you're not taking the office job.
Speaker 1: You're still working in the train yard. Yeah, doing the
Speaker 1: thing that that feels good. Yeah. I think for me,
Speaker 1: I love the studio, I love creating, and I love
Speaker 1: playing live when I want to. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: that I really ever feel the need to go spend
Speaker 1: nine months a year on a tour bus again, though
Speaker 1: that's not really At a certain point, you're like, wait,
Speaker 1: who am I doing this for it? You know, because
Speaker 1: I wanted to go home three months ago. So I
Speaker 1: think it's learning your limits and learning you just want
Speaker 1: everything to be the best you have to give, and
Speaker 1: it's hard to be inspired if you're not. So that's
Speaker 1: what I've learned from it all. Sometimes the best thing
Speaker 1: I can do for my music is to not play
Speaker 1: music and go and just live for a while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really have been. I've been fishing all summer. Man,
Speaker 1: we're down we're down here on the coast. So I
Speaker 1: just feeding the crabs and playing guitar, playing with the kids,
Speaker 1: reading a lot of Harry Potter to them. And then, uh,
Speaker 1: you know at night, I spend time on the internet
Speaker 1: looking at really expensive cars that go way too fast.
Speaker 1: And that's that's sort of where I'm at. You know,
Speaker 1: sounds pretty good. Yeah, it's something to do. Yeah, writing,
Speaker 1: writing songs when they come, and then looking looking forward
Speaker 1: to what's next. Great man, Well, thank you for talking,
Speaker 1: you too, man, Thank you, Rut. Thanks to Stigill Simpson
Speaker 1: for catching up with the Rick. You can hear all
Speaker 1: of our favorite Sturgil songs on a playlist at Broken
Speaker 1: Record podcast dot com, and be sure to subscribe to
Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast.
Speaker 1: There you can find extended cuts of new and old episodes.
Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced with helpful Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel,
Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and it's executive produced by miol Bell.
Speaker 1: Broken Record is production of Pushkin Industries. And if you
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Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond, Bass m