1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as 3 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: always so much for tuning in. Who's that in the booth. 4 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 2: It's our super producer, mister Max Williams. 5 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 3: I am a super producer in the booth and my 6 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 3: name is Max Williams. 7 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 4: Maximus is I like to call you in our secret 8 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 4: text threats. 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 3: That we only send to each other late at night. 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 3: I know, I know it's all about hot nighttime, private times. 11 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:49,959 Speaker 3: I know it's all about hot touch. 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 4: Look, we got to clarify. Okay, we didn't meet in 13 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 4: a hot tub, per se. We met and then got 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 4: into a hot right. We were at an event, a 15 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 4: weekend long event. Yes, there were others with any others 16 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 4: and many others got in hot tub with us. It 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 4: was a collaboration, and then the next year we did 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 4: a larger collaboration with more people. 19 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 3: He doesn't want to hear the hot tub. 20 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 2: You have guys who told me the hot This is 21 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: the fourth time, and now we're in a different situation 22 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 2: because it's not just ben Nol and Max here. We 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: have company, you guys, We have company this week, which. 24 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 3: Is why we're trying to make really good first impressions 25 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 3: of the hot tub talk. You just got to get 26 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 3: a bigger hot tub, so let us a Jaws reference. 27 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 2: Yea, let us Welcome to the show, podcasting luminaries, good 28 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 2: friends of ours one returning guest in particular Katie Mitchell 29 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: and Eves Jeffcoat, the creators of on Theme. You guys, 30 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: thank you for sitting through that. 31 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 5: Thank you. Honestly, it's kind of like we're in a 32 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 5: hot tub. 33 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 4: Now, sort of a hot tub time machine, you see, 34 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 4: it's weird in this studio. We're here in person and 35 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 4: little sweltery more like a sounda. 36 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, we thank you. 37 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 4: At the end of every single Ridiculous History episode. We 38 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 4: refer to you as being here in spirit because secret 39 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 4: or behind the curtain peak. I guess Eaves was one 40 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 4: of our very first research associates. 41 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 3: That's right this way, like for a brief. 42 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 4: Moments back in the day, and then you, you know, 43 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 4: spread your wings and moved on to bigger and better things, which. 44 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 3: We're going to talk about today. 45 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 4: But we still thank you every single episode. 46 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 5: Ye're welcome. 47 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 2: Now, let's start before we dive into this week's exploration. 48 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: Let's learn a little bit more about on theme and 49 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: about your history together as as creators. Katie, you and 50 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: I were catching up a little bit before we rolled 51 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 2: on air, and I was fast. I knew you have 52 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: a book coming out in February, but I did not 53 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: know you also run a bookstore. 54 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I have a book coming out. The book 55 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 6: is about black bookstores in the United States, and that 56 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 6: idea came from my experience being a bookseller. So my 57 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 6: bookstore is called Good Books, and the book is called 58 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 6: pro to the People. And so I went around the 59 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 6: country interviewing booksellers from yesteryear and current booksellers. So it's 60 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 6: been really fun getting to know all these people and 61 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 6: putting this like really unique history all in one volume 62 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 6: because before it hasn't been all together. 63 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 4: It's so interesting, I mean with you know, I guess 64 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 4: the advit of like the Amazons of the world and 65 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 4: all that bookshops and independent bookshops in particular. I had 66 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 4: to really lean into the community aspects exactly. 67 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 6: Yeah, and they all have I think, like one thing 68 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 6: about black bookstores in particular. We're like always put on 69 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 6: these lists like here's like ten black bookstores to go support, 70 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 6: but they're all so different. 71 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 7: They all have their different political leanings. 72 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 6: Some of them are feminists, some of them like focus 73 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 6: on sci fi, some of them are really activist based. 74 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 6: So when you go in there, you're like, oh, I'm 75 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 6: at a black bookstore. But like you can really tell 76 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 6: the owners like political leanings by the books that are 77 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 6: on the shelves. 78 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: Because it's kind of like a portrait of the person 79 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: who owns the store exactly. 80 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 6: Yeah, and even as a bookseller, I try not to 81 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 6: like let my own politics, like holy shape it because 82 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 6: I'm like, okay, like I'm not the smartest cookie out there. 83 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 6: Like there's some other things and some interesting things like 84 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 6: I'm not into ya or comics, but like other people are, 85 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 6: and I'm like, okay, I should carry some of that. 86 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 6: But yeah, it definitely shines through because you're the one sourcing. 87 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: The books, and as as two literary luminaries here, you 88 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: of course are old friends right started in middle school 89 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: and you've maintained nol. This was surprising to me, as 90 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 2: you know, kind of a schlubby dude. They've been able 91 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: to be friends for so long. And I will defend 92 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: you against yourself. That's bitter end. But it's also interesting 93 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: as long time ridiculous historians know. Eves has classed up 94 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: our show a number of times and is a prominent 95 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 2: author here in Atlanta. It's doing a million things pretty 96 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 2: much every time we hang out, I learned something new 97 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: and you two took from your your friendship and your 98 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 2: love of history. You built this show on the theme. 99 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: Could you tell us a little bit about what on themes? 100 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 5: Yeah? 101 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 8: So on Theme is a podcast that Katie and I 102 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 8: co host and co create, and it's about black storytelling 103 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 8: and all of its forms, because there are so many 104 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 8: forms and shapes that black storytelling takes. So some of 105 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 8: those being books, like Katie was just talking about, but 106 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 8: we also talk about plays, we talk about music, we 107 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 8: talk about poetry, we talk about TV and film, we 108 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 8: talk about all kinds of black storytelling. Black storytelling being 109 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 8: black stories created by black creators essentially, and. 110 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 5: We both have a love for black stories. 111 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 8: I mean, I know Katie grew up around black stories 112 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 8: a lot, and we're both black, so we're like invested 113 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 8: and embedded in black stories as black people in the 114 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 8: United States. But yeah, our show covers black storytelling and 115 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 8: the things that we care about a lot of the time. 116 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 8: But like So Katie and I a should say we 117 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 8: have different interests in a lot of ways. She was 118 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 8: just saying, you know, y A's and comics. The other 119 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 8: day I brought up to her like talking about black cosplayers, 120 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 8: and she was like, oh, I don't want I'm. 121 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 5: Good on that. 122 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 8: That's your thing and so like, and there are things 123 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 8: that Katie's into that don't necessarily align with my interests. 124 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 5: So I feel like we bounce off of each other 125 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 5: really well that way. 126 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 8: But we have episodes like for Haters, like Katie about 127 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 8: black haters and in rap music and so that's like 128 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 8: her thing. 129 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 4: And then well we got to get you away in 130 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 4: on the Kendrick Drake beef, really. 131 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 5: I know it. 132 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 3: There is one who has a pulitzer. I mean that's 133 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 3: totally true. I just think it's there's a guy, gosh, 134 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 3: I'm forgetting his name now. 135 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 4: He's like an old school hip hop guy and I'm 136 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 4: totally spacic on his name. But he said that he 137 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 4: thinks it's the most important beef in hip hop music, 138 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 4: like since forever, because of how it actually affected these guys' lives, 139 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 4: like Drake is basically I don't know for all kids 140 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 4: and purposes sort of over you know, and Kendrick has 141 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 4: a number one song where he calls a. 142 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 3: Dude a pedophile. Yeah, any thoughts. 143 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 6: I mean, I I think it's a very important rap beef. 144 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 6: I I love all things hating, love all things beef. 145 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 6: I think so the hating episode that he is talking about. 146 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 6: My thesis statement was that haters are muses. So if 147 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 6: you have somebody hating on you, maybe you're gonna pop out. 148 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 6: You're gonna be like, oh you hating on me, Like 149 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 6: I'm gonna show you. But Kendrick flipped it and he's like, no, 150 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 6: I hate you, and my hate for you is driving 151 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 6: this art. And I was like, WHOA, didn't think about that, 152 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 6: But it's true. But yeah, I think it's really important. 153 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 6: I think that there are a lot of people who 154 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 6: like put on blackness as a costume who may be 155 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 6: black fully, maybe half black, or not black at all. 156 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 3: Cough cough Drake cough. Yeah. 157 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 7: Like, and I mean when Kendrick said. 158 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 3: Canada, but. 159 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 6: Let's be real, when he said, you run to America 160 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 6: to imitate heritage, you can't imitate this violence, and like, yeah, 161 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 6: like there's there's things. 162 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 3: As I'm a colonizer, yeah, he is. 163 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 6: I think there's a lot of things that Black Americans 164 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 6: have put out into the world as far as art 165 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 6: that people of all stripes feel like they have entitlement 166 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 6: to co opting. Yeah, right, And so Drake being you know, 167 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 6: the personification of that in many ways, like pretending to 168 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 6: be from Atlanta. He's from Memphis. Sometimes he's from you know, Houston. 169 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 6: Sometimes he's vaguely Caribbean. 170 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 3: He does put on the pets occa to don't love it. 171 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 4: So I love it, I too, you know, I mean, 172 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 4: I really think it's interesting too, the forensic level of 173 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 4: like investigative journalism that has gone into this rap beef. 174 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's kind of. 175 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 6: There's so much lower Wait, it is all this real, 176 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 6: but I'm living for it. 177 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: And we're getting to, uh, we're getting to part of 178 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: this exploration for this week where we're talking about the 179 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 2: importance of art and culture and communication in the way 180 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 2: that it isn't you know, Black American cultures, as weird 181 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: as it is to say it, and I know a 182 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: lot of people in other parts of the world don't 183 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: want to hear it. Black American culture has historically been 184 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: one of the most successful exports of the United States. 185 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 3: Can we agree with that? 186 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 8: It has been completely commodified in so many ways across 187 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 8: the world. And I mean it influences a lot, it 188 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 8: has a lot of threats. It's got origins here, and yeah, 189 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 8: it's huge. And I think today's episode we're talking about 190 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 8: today is Ernest Hogan and Coon songs and the history 191 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 8: of ragtime. All of those things have like influenced American 192 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 8: and shaped American culture and American music in enormous ways. 193 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get to know Ernest. So he's Ernest Hogan. 194 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: Is his stage name, right or did he legally change 195 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 2: I think it was Ernest Crowded. 196 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 8: Yeah, Ernest. The history of why he changed his name 197 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 8: is pretty nebulous. It's one of those things where got 198 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 8: like a story around it, like you took it from 199 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 8: an Irish guy or something like that. But I'm not 200 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 8: sure the actual veracity of that story. 201 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 3: We have those all the time. 202 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 4: Apoper full Kin. Yeah, like it was, you know, a 203 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 4: good story, but not necessarily true. The truth exists somewhere 204 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 4: in the middle. 205 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 5: Problem exactly somewhere in the middle. 206 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 8: So whatever his reasons were changing it was he was 207 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 8: born Ruben crowdis our crotus and He was born in 208 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 8: Kentucky and he started performing at. 209 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 5: A pretty early age. 210 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 8: He was working in a local circus at first, and 211 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 8: I guess I should stop to say that, like Ernest 212 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 8: Hogan was a tipping off point from one of the 213 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 8: episodes that we did on Regret on on theme, So 214 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 8: we were talking about in that episode regret that black 215 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 8: people have had, Black artists have had in the past, 216 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 8: about work that they did that was race related. And 217 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 8: so that's how we came upon Ernest Hogan and this 218 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 8: song that we'll get into in a second, that he 219 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 8: did say that he regretted, but of course it's more 220 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 8: complicated than that. So at twelve years old, he joined 221 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 8: a traveling actors troupe and he played the role of 222 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 8: a black child in Uncle Tom's cabin, and he kept performing. 223 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 8: He was doing this from an early age, and eventually 224 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 8: he started to join different black menstrual groups, and then 225 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 8: he joined a vaudeville quartet. 226 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 4: Remind people what menstrual groups were in just the concept. 227 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 4: I know it's really fraught in and of itself, but 228 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 4: just a quick overview of the idea of menstrul shows. 229 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 8: Okay, Yeah, so there's this history of Vauteville, which people 230 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 8: might be they might already. 231 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 3: Have some knowledge of asthma exactly, Razmataz. 232 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 8: It was like a variety show essentially, so people might sing, 233 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 8: there might be like skits, one act plays, there would 234 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 8: be music, and there's also this history history of minstrel 235 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 8: syat in the United States, and so these minstrel shows 236 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 8: were kind of similar to that same idea of these 237 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 8: variety acts that were on stage. But in these menstrul shows, 238 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 8: you had white people who were performing in blackface. So 239 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 8: they would take a exactly al Joson so and blackface 240 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 8: continue for quite a while. But yes, so people would 241 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 8: paint their faces in cork with cork to be black, 242 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 8: and then they would be these caricatures of black people 243 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 8: on stage. And so they would try to affect their 244 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 8: ideas of what they thought black culture and black performance was. 245 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: Beyond stereotypical caricatures. We're talking about. 246 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 5: Beyond in voice. There were you know, they were doing 247 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 5: jigs on stage. 248 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 8: You know, they had a really affected dialect that was 249 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 8: obviously derogatory and wasn't truly indicative of the breath of 250 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 8: like black dialect. 251 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 4: I mean, weren't there kind of stock characters almost like 252 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 4: almost like you know in the lexicon of theater where 253 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 4: you have like you know, the the rogue and the 254 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 4: the whatever. Like in menstrual shows, there was like the 255 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 4: kind of lazy character and there were different ones, the 256 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 4: sneaky character, there was I believe I'm forgetting. 257 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 8: Yeah, So I will say that generally to the menstrel 258 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 8: like was based around an idea of black masculinity. So 259 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 8: there were women who showed up, but a lot of 260 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 8: the people who were in blackface were white men performing 261 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 8: as black men, and their idea of black masculinity often 262 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 8: revolved around their laziness. So they couldn't do this, you know, 263 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 8: they weren't capable, Like they were kind of bumbling around. 264 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 8: They were idiots, they were fools, and so that was 265 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 8: often the stereotype that they would use in minstrel shows. 266 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 8: And then oftentimes when the woman was involved, she was promiscuous. 267 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 5: That was kind of her character. 268 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 8: Which she came in like a Jezebel, and her relationship 269 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 8: was based off of this character, the black male character 270 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 8: that they were performing. 271 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 4: So Hogan's coming up in this kind of this culture, 272 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 4: like he's how is he a part of this as 273 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 4: a black man? 274 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 5: So as a black man. 275 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 8: He does he creates Kon songs, so he has a 276 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 8: really really interesting history. I mean, he's called has been called, 277 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 8: I think the father of Ragtime or something like that. 278 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 8: So he was very integral in the early stages of ragtime. 279 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 8: But that also included Koon songs, and Coon songs were 280 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 8: songs that were they were the same idea as minstrel 281 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 8: shows we were just talking about. So in addition to 282 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 8: this lazy character character, it was also like a violent 283 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 8: character as we can see continues today in the way 284 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 8: that black men are often portrayed. That was the case 285 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 8: in minstrel shows back then too. But basically Coon songs 286 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 8: were kind of minstrel shows in song form, so they 287 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 8: included these derogatory characters of black people, often black men, 288 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 8: and that was the rage at the time. And this 289 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 8: is where Ernest Hogan's story came in. He wrote one 290 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 8: of the like, if not the most popular, like one 291 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 8: of the most popular songs at Koon Songs at the time, 292 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 8: and that was all Kuon's look alike to me, which 293 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 8: I must say that you can listen to to a 294 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 8: rendition of that song on our episode. We might regret 295 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 8: this episode later on theme because a musician named Coolie 296 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 8: Gilchris performed it. 297 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 5: So we still have the sheet music. 298 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 8: Everybody can go online and find the sheet music and 299 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 8: you can see exactly how to sing it if you're 300 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 8: into that thing. Yea, Honestly, it's a catchy song, I 301 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 8: must admit. But there are lots of intricacies for sure, 302 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 8: which we talked about in our episode about like why 303 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 8: Ernest Hogan was invested in coon songs so heavily and 304 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 8: why he like truly was compelled to create coon songs. 305 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 6: And going back to your question about like the different 306 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 6: stereotypes within the Mintell Shows, one of the biggest ones 307 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 6: was a character called Jim Crow. And so if you're 308 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 6: familiar with Jim Crow laws in America, you can see 309 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 6: how this art form really impacted kind of like public 310 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 6: policy throughout. 311 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 7: The twentieth century. 312 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 6: So we're going from Mintell Shows to Yah, you need 313 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 6: to get to the back of the buzz y'all can't 314 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 6: loiter here. 315 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 7: So it really is like this through line to inform. 316 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 4: The perspective like of what white people thought about black 317 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 4: culture and black people exactly. 318 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: And this also this strange, this strange relationship between public 319 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: policy the world of entertainment systematic racism. This brings us 320 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: to Earnest as a singular example of larger pattern, because 321 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: I think for a lot of people, unfortunately in the US, 322 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: they didn't learn about the nature of menstrual shows until 323 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 2: they saw films like Bamboozled, right, and when they saw that, 324 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: you know, I remember a lot of people being surprised 325 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,359 Speaker 2: by the idea that if you are a black entertainer 326 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 2: at this point in American history, one of the few 327 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: ways that you can be a paid performer is to 328 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: participate in this thing, to wear black face even though 329 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: you are already black, and perpetuate some of those stereotypes. 330 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 2: Is that what happened to Ernest's. 331 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 5: That's exactly what happened. So Ernest himself wrote coon songs. 332 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 8: He did not, as far as I know, wear black 333 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 8: face and perform in black face, if I'm remembering correctly, 334 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 8: But there were plenty of other entertainers who did. But 335 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 8: of course, like I said, coon songs were like minstrel shows, 336 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 8: just in song forms, so it's kind of like a 337 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 8: musical black face in a way. So yes, he was 338 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 8: in that predicament. He had to sustain his life, and 339 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 8: he had to put food on his table. You know, 340 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 8: he had to live. So the thing that he chose 341 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 8: to do to do that was publish coon songs. And so, 342 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 8: like I said, coon songs were hot. So you have 343 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 8: to think about back in this time, like people were 344 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 8: buying sheet music to have in their homes, and then 345 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 8: there were people who were performing across cities in the 346 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 8: United States in like actual entertainers who were performing in venues, 347 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 8: but then there were people at home who were also 348 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 8: buying sheet music. So entertainers at the time would sell 349 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 8: their sheet music. That didn't work out so well for 350 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 8: all entertainers because they were selling sheet music for like 351 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 8: fifty a pop one hundred of pop, where they weren't 352 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 8: getting royalties and things like that. They could have made 353 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 8: more money. So that did happen to some people. But 354 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 8: it was an avenue for making money. And this was 355 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 8: his career. He was an entertainer and he was a 356 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 8: composer and he wrote all Kunes look alike to Me. 357 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 8: He also wrote another song called Aapasma Law, and that was. 358 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 5: A pretty popular song too. 359 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 8: It was a song that is very rooted in black 360 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 8: tradition and black folk music because it did go along 361 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 8: with it had a dance that went along with it, 362 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 8: but just. 363 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 3: So it was familiar, almost like TikTok culture in a way. 364 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 3: I mean, they're talking about this sucome full circle in 365 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 3: an interesting way. 366 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 4: It's all about attention deficit theater and like the path 367 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 4: of least resistance and the cashiest little melody with the 368 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 4: most easy to wrap your head around like lyrics. 369 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, that song in particular had like, uh lyrics 370 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 6: that tells you how to do the dance, which I 371 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 6: was like, hey, like this sounds like a dance we 372 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 6: would dude today. And I think just like the echo 373 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 6: of Ernest Hogan, he you can still kind of see 374 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 6: him in Hollywood now, like people, you know, black men 375 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 6: or Latino men saying like, oh, I can only get 376 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 6: casted as like a thug, but I want to be 377 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 6: in Hollywood, so I want to take these roles and 378 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 6: hope and pray that my hard work will you know, 379 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 6: make me the Denzel of my time or something. 380 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: But Danny Trejo says, hey, could I be a love 381 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 3: interest at some point? You know what I mean? 382 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, so you definitely see like Ernest Hogan in all 383 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 6: these contemporary ways. 384 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 8: I feel, Yeah, for sure, we were thinking about snap 385 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 8: music and how it would say lean back, you know, 386 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 8: rock side to side. 387 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 5: It will tell you exactly what to do. 388 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 8: And that's how LAPASMLA was and that's clearly rooted in 389 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 8: a long standing black tradition. 390 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:49,959 Speaker 5: But just help people know. 391 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 8: I mean, you can go listen to all who's like 392 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 8: look alike to me, but just so people know some 393 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 8: of the lyrics and so they can see how character Yeah, 394 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 8: they see how these characters show up. I will I 395 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 8: will say some of them for you. I won't sing it, 396 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 8: but I will say it. And that's all coons look 397 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 8: alike to me. I've got another bow, you see. And 398 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 8: he's just as good to me as you nigga ever 399 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 8: tried to be. He spends his money free. I know 400 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 8: we can't agree, so I don't like you know how 401 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 8: all coons look alike to me? 402 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 5: That's the chorus of that song. So they were that 403 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 5: tell a story in between. It takes you to the. 404 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 3: Moment with that underlying theme. 405 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 8: Yes, So, like I was talking about earlier, that relationship 406 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 8: between black men and black women in these minstrualized forms 407 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 8: of these stories is that the. 408 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 5: Man is lazy. He's not making the money. 409 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 8: So this black woman is who's a character who's speaking 410 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 8: those lines that I just read, is saying she's reinforcing 411 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 8: stereotypes that white people would have placed upon black people 412 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 8: at the time. 413 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 4: And don't make sure I clear on this, the use 414 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 4: of the word kon here is not a reappropriation of 415 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 4: a word that was used by white people as a negative. 416 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 4: It's just basically saying, yeah, that's the word, and we're 417 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 4: on board with that, kind of like. It's not the 418 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 4: same as the N word used in rap music. This 419 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 4: is like calling themselves koons. Was just a horrible thing 420 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 4: that white people call black people, right. 421 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 5: Yes, it was. 422 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 3: Probably it's complex too, So. 423 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 5: It wasn't what do we call it today when we I. 424 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 6: Don't think it was a term of endearment now, it 425 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 6: wasn't a term of endearment at all. 426 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 7: Our reclaiming, reclaiming that's the word. 427 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 4: Right, No, but it's a word that was thrown around 428 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 4: and hate and hate from white folks, right yeah. 429 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, And that's how they were saying it in the songs, yes, exactly. 430 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 2: And just for anybody who didn't hear that correctly in 431 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 2: that chorus, bo b a U is just like another 432 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 2: lover right yeah, other parent yeah uh and this Okay, 433 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit about the success of 434 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 2: this song just a bit earlier. So it was an 435 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: absolute hit. People considered it a banker. 436 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 5: Yes they did. It was a bop for people. 437 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 8: The song got really popular and a bunch of different 438 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 8: people sang it, and there were parodies of it that 439 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 8: were made that people can go look up to. So 440 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 8: people enjoyed the song, and it was also part of 441 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 8: the larger culture of Coon songs. I'm not sure why 442 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 8: people enjoyed it so much this one, particularly because a 443 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 8: lot of other Coon songs that were written at the 444 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 8: time had similar themes. So I don't really know why 445 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 8: people were like, yeah, I really like this one. It 446 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 8: was set to ragtime type music, which people, you know, 447 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 8: say syncopation is a big part. 448 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 3: Of He was a pianist as well, right like he was? Yeah, okay, 449 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 3: he was, he really did. 450 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 4: I mean lyrics aside and the offensiveness of all of 451 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 4: this and the complexity he created a form as well, 452 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 4: kind of right like in terms of the music. 453 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 8: Yes he did, And so he wasn't the first person 454 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 8: to write a Coon song. So I guess this is 455 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 8: where I can start getting a little bit into the 456 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 8: history of coon songs, please, So the coon songs or 457 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 8: coon songs, there were coon songs were created before ragtime 458 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 8: kind of came around. So at a certain point we're 459 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 8: talking about Ernest Hogan and that how he's the father 460 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 8: of ragtime, about how he really helped popularize the form, 461 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 8: and how he was really one of the early composers 462 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 8: in ragtime. But there were coon songs that weren't set 463 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 8: to ragtime that came up before ragtime did. So Hogan's 464 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 8: song had these same caricatures that other coon songs would 465 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 8: have had at the time of black people as bumbling, lazy, 466 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 8: and violent. But the first coon songs came out around 467 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 8: eighteen eighty, so this was after the Civil War, after 468 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 8: ish the reconstruction era, and there were people like black entertainer, 469 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 8: so these were white and black entertainers who were creating 470 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 8: coon songs, but ones like black entertainer Billy Curson's who 471 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 8: wrote this song called Mary's Gone with a Coon that 472 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 8: was in the eighteen eighties, and this minstrel comedian named 473 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 8: Charles Hunt has been credited. Okay, this is one of 474 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 8: those this is one of those things where there's so 475 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 8: many things that can be called a first for what 476 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 8: the coon song was, but he's been credited with writing 477 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 8: the first real coon song, whatever that means. 478 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: Since we're an audio podcast, everybody, I want you to 479 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 2: hear the air quotes. 480 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 3: Yes, combo there. I mean parallel thinking is a thing too, 481 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 3: by the way. 482 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 4: I mean like, this is something that that was in 483 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 4: demand even if people didn't know what to call it yet, right, Like, 484 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 4: so people probably sort of created it at the same 485 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 4: time in a lot of cases. 486 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 8: Yeah, and you also have to imagine, like, of course 487 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 8: these ideas of black people being inferior are going to 488 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 8: work themselves out in song, like no matter what the 489 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 8: the beat is. 490 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 2: Because the music will reflect the zeitgeist that if the zeikeeist. 491 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 4: Is thoroughly unclean unclean indeed, speaking of unclean, but I 492 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 4: found a post on an Internet archive of the sheet 493 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 4: music cover of the published sheet music of this and 494 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 4: it is about as awful as. 495 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 3: You might think. I'm sure you see this before. 496 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 4: It's just these, you know, just cartoonish caricatures of blackface, 497 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 4: kind of these these stock characters with big red mouths 498 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 4: and wearing kind of weirdly almost like they're mocking them 499 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 4: because they're wearing like fancy dress clothes. 500 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 3: What's up with that? 501 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 8: So that was actually one of the stereotypes of black people. 502 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 8: It was called like a swell, that was called So 503 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 8: that was part of the one of one of the 504 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 8: images that these racist characters would create around black people. 505 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 4: But it was almost meant to be laughable because they're 506 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 4: like dressing way. 507 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 3: Above their station. I guess again with the air quotes, 508 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 3: you can't see them. 509 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 8: Yeah, there's an irony in them wearing this kind of 510 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 8: fancy clothing, but you also have to remember that this 511 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 8: is clothing. 512 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 5: This is like clothing of the enslaver's class. 513 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 8: So it's still like a matter of servitude, you know, 514 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 8: for them, it's like I'm placing you in this clothes. 515 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 5: It's very patriot paternalizing. 516 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, patriotizing as well. 517 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 4: I mean, wouldn't you say too that maybe that was 518 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 4: kind of co opted and owned like in like maybe 519 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 4: pimp culture is the wrong term, but like there is 520 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 4: sort of a vibe of this type of dress that 521 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 4: was sort of taken back in a way by a 522 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 4: certain segment of black culture. 523 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 5: I've never thought about it that way. 524 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 4: It sort of feels sort of like like I'm taking 525 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 4: this back for me, you know, and I'm not even 526 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,239 Speaker 4: going to allow this to be what it was. I'm 527 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 4: going to like sort of co opt it and own 528 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 4: it and take it back and way. 529 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 3: I don't know. 530 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 5: That's interesting. 531 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 8: No, I've never thought about it, but I think that's 532 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 8: one way to think about it. Yeah, and then and 533 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 8: then I think there are a lot of things like 534 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 8: this that have been co opted back and turned around. 535 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 3: That's always interesting. 536 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 8: Yeah, it is always interesting. And I will say too 537 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 8: that you know, it is very complex. But even back then, 538 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 8: the people, the black people who were creating coon songs, 539 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 8: they were self aware. 540 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 5: They knew what they were doing. 541 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 8: So I can't speak for every individual and how woke 542 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 8: quote unquote woke they may have been in the songs 543 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 8: that they were creating, but a lot of the times 544 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 8: their songs were satires. 545 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 3: Say little just dden in there. 546 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, there were. 547 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 8: And one of the people who were was writing coon 548 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 8: songs at the time. His name was Irving Jones. People 549 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 8: can go and look at his sheet music and see 550 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 8: some of the covers that Irvin Jones had, but he 551 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 8: included a lot of that kind of criticism and satire 552 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 8: in his work, so he was class conscious, he was 553 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 8: raised conscious. One of his songs he had it was 554 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 8: called Saint Patrick's Day is a bad day for coons, 555 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 8: So you can go. 556 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 3: You can go, bad day for everybody, just putting that 557 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 3: out there. 558 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 8: Yeah, but in this story, he specifically tells the story. 559 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 8: In the song, he specifically tells the story of black 560 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,719 Speaker 8: people who are being violently harmed by white people on 561 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 8: Saint Patrick's Day. And that's something that we can still 562 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 8: talk about today. I mean we so I think in 563 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 8: the United States, even broader than black culture, so ignorantly, 564 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 8: willfully ignorantly celebrate other people's cultures through a commercial perspective. 565 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 5: Like yeah, so. 566 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 4: He was just giving us the rock hands, Okay, he 567 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 4: was agreeing with you as someone who bartended for seven years. 568 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 3: I hate Sinko, Tomayo, Sam Patrick's Day, New Year's Eve, 569 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,239 Speaker 3: all them. Yeah, we like to collectively refer to those 570 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 3: as amateur hour bring Back Arbor Day celebrations. 571 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 4: Right, sit under a tree, touch graw, we go, don't 572 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 4: bring it back and go to bars though, That's what 573 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 4: I'm saying, bring back Arbor Day at bars, have a picnic, No, 574 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 4: don't listen. 575 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 2: So we're we're seeing something here that I think, I 576 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 2: think you hit on something crucial That is a theme 577 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 2: we continually return to in our exploration this week and today, 578 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 2: which is that history is way closer than it looks 579 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 2: in the rear view mirror. Right, I'm thinking of not 580 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 2: to keep referencing films, but I'm also thinking of Mark Fiction, 581 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: an amazing film I love that I thought, very much, 582 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 2: very much, very much shows modern examples of what we're 583 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 2: describing happening with menstrual songs? Right, Like, am I as 584 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 2: a creator, as an artist and an entertainer? What agency 585 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: do I have? 586 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 3: You know? And what like the bills versus the soul? 587 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 8: Right? 588 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 3: Have you all seen American fiction? Yeah? 589 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, I just think that the perfect example because it's 590 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 4: about like a more literary minded black writer who as 591 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 4: a joke writes something that he considers trash or representative 592 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 4: of this culture of like the perspective that you guys 593 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 4: are describing, the masculine kind of thug perspective that sells 594 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 4: because it's. 595 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 3: What white people. 596 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 4: I guess they are able to enjoy it in some 597 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 4: way because it absolves them or something. 598 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 3: I don't know. That's what they talking about. 599 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 4: Complicated but I think it's a really interesting modern example 600 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 4: of what must have been going through Hogan's mind, you know, 601 00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 4: or sorry, that's not the right what must have been 602 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 4: going for through the writer's mind when he was writing 603 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 4: these things for money but also thinking about how it 604 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 4: might be affecting his culture negatively. 605 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 6: And I think similarly to in American fiction during this 606 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 6: time where Coon songs were being written, there was a 607 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 6: contingency of black people saying like, Hey, you shouldn't be 608 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 6: making this, this is making us look bad. So it 609 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 6: wasn't like everyone was just like kind of going along 610 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 6: with it. So as you said, like history is kind 611 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 6: of like right at our doorstep, like we're having a 612 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 6: lot of the same conversations over and over again. Like 613 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 6: the medium might change a little bit, but at the core, 614 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 6: it's kind of the same. 615 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 8: Yes, there's one I can't remember what article I was 616 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 8: reading about, but not just coon songs, but also the 617 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 8: word coon. So, like Noel was saying earlier, you know, 618 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 8: this work coon is morphed a lot over the year 619 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 8: since this time period that we're talking about now, and 620 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 8: it has different connotations. But in this original derogatory form, 621 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 8: all black people weren't here for the word coon either. 622 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 8: So I was reading this one article that was talking 623 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 8: about a theater in Savannah that was like, oh, oh, 624 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 8: I think it was a black mac. I think it 625 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 8: was a black newspaper if I'm remembering correctly. That was like, yeah, 626 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 8: this is a show for coons. All coons comes through. 627 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 8: And people were like so welcoming. I mean it was Savannah, 628 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 8: I mean speaking of Saint Patti's Day. 629 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 3: And it's it's still the thing. 630 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, I lived there for a second, so I've been 631 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 5: steeped in. 632 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 3: That this is so unrelated. 633 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 2: I thought you would enjoy this though one time, because 634 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 2: one time in days when I was even more pretentious 635 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 2: than I am now, I was like, I'm gonna drive 636 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 2: down to a city I've never visited. I'm going to 637 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 2: get a little hotel room, I'm gonna lock myself in 638 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: and i'm gonna write. 639 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 3: You know, I'm gonna. 640 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: Take take just the days off. I'll make it happen. 641 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: I chose Savannah and Georgia, and I got down there 642 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 2: and everybody assumed that I had gotten to Saint Patrick's 643 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: Day a week early because I wanted to party that hard, 644 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: and other people showed up up for that reason it 645 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: was insane. 646 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 3: I don't know if you were. 647 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 5: There, but I flee Savannah. If I'm ever going to 648 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 5: know I'm going to be there. 649 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 3: I should the worst, just the worst. 650 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 4: But back to the word koon, I was just looking 651 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 4: up the origins because I was curious as well. Apparently 652 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 4: it was originally used to describe the Whig political party 653 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 4: in the eighteen forties, and then it was also used 654 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 4: before it was a slur for black people, as a 655 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 4: slur for Native American people, and I was unaware of that. 656 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 4: I think this is like in the early eighteen or 657 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 4: like mid eighteen hundreds, but then obviously once it starts 658 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 4: to be used as that in that way, that's kind 659 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 4: of where your story picks up, right. 660 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it seems like they were like, oh, this 661 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 5: thing works really well. 662 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 3: Great hate word here. 663 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 2: Racism has never been especially created. 664 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 3: But with this. 665 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 2: Okay, so we know we know that our protagonist in 666 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 2: the story here, Ernest, is part of a larger context, right. 667 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 2: And there are other authors, other musicians who are as 668 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: we said, including social observation, right, including Barbes writing writing 669 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 2: things that acknowledge the truth of this situation in a 670 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 2: way that some casual listeners might miss or be wilfully 671 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: ignorant of how did how did people react to Hogan 672 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 2: when he was writing these did he achieve, you know, 673 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: like a celebrity status? 674 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 3: Was he was? He considered famous, His. 675 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 4: Name is on the sheet music real big. I mean, 676 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 4: I can tell you that. But I do wonder, like 677 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 4: because a lot of times writers that aren't really the 678 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 4: singers per se, they sort of take a back seat 679 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 4: and they don't necessarily have name recognition or like publicity 680 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 4: kind of vibes. 681 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 8: So in Ernest Hogan's case, he was a touring entertainer 682 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 8: as well, so he had he had celebrity and during 683 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 8: contemporary times got it. It wasn't one of those situations 684 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 8: where they were like, oh, we just realized after he 685 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 8: died posthumously that Ernest Hogan was the one who wrote 686 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 8: this huge. 687 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 6: And I think that played into his regret because people 688 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 6: knew him so much and associated him so much with it. 689 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:09,399 Speaker 7: If he tried to move on. 690 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 3: It's hard to move on from something when that's your 691 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 3: big hit. 692 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 7: That's what everybody they want you to keep doing it. 693 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 8: Yeah, and there were a lot of going back to minstrelsy, 694 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 8: there are a lot of black minstrel troops, So it 695 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 8: wasn't like this minstrel troops were just a white thing. 696 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 8: It's particularly in the South, there were black minstrel troops 697 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 8: who were traveling and doing shows. 698 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 3: And they did the black face too. 699 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 5: There were black people who did black face. 700 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I know that was in Bamboozo. 701 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 4: But I thought in a way they were almost just 702 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 4: being extreme and sash satirizing the idea of black people 703 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:40,879 Speaker 4: wearing black face. 704 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 3: But I guess that absolutely happens. 705 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, it happened. 706 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 8: And I would also argue that I think maybe anytime 707 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 8: a black person shows up in black face, it's hard 708 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 8: for it not to be satire because as soon as 709 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 8: you show up in blackface, you are not only not 710 00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 8: only mimicking this derogatory character of a black black men usually, 711 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 8: but you're also mimicking the white man, mimicking. 712 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 5: Yeah black men. 713 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 7: Yeah. 714 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 2: Hold the phone, folks, we have officially got some breaking news. 715 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 2: This is going to be a two parter. We're just 716 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 2: having too much fun and there's still too much to 717 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 2: get to for one episode. 718 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, this is a topic that spans many 719 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 4: subtopics and historical touch points, and we couldn't be joined 720 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 4: with better guests to go through what I know can 721 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 4: be a little bit a difficult topic to traverse, and 722 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 4: we are guided by two experts in the field. 723 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 2: So big big thanks, of course to Eves and Katie. 724 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 2: Do check out their show on theme and also join 725 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 2: us for part two of our special episode on the 726 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: history of music and racism and minstrel shows, and we 727 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 2: promise it's not complete downer for sure. 728 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 4: Huge thanks to super producer Max Williams his brother Alex Williams, 729 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 4: who composed our theme. Eaves Jeff Coats here in person, 730 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 4: no longer in spirit, but you know future spiritual occurrences 731 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 4: are likely. 732 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 2: Big big thanks to Jonathan Strickland aka the quizter AJ 733 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 2: Jacobs or I should say AJ Bahamas Jacobs. And speaking 734 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: of breaking news, we just heard back from doctor Rachel Lance, 735 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 2: who looks forward to returning and teaching us more about 736 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 2: underwater explosions, still one of my favorite areas of expertise 737 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:38,439 Speaker 2: we've run into in the course of this show. 738 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 4: One of our favorite collective flexes to mention that we 739 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 4: know someone is expert in this seemingly beyond niche field, 740 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 4: but I can't wait to Yeah, we talked about the 741 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 4: sinking of the Hunley, a Confederate submarine that's been years 742 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 4: at this point, so man I can't wait to see 743 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 4: what she's been up to. 744 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 2: Yes, and she has a new book that is on 745 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 2: the way. She'll tell us all about it. In the meantime. 746 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 2: Do check out on Theme and join us for a 747 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: future episode. 748 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 3: We'll see you next time, folks. 749 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 750 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.