Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset
Speaker 1: I am a loser if also we know wouldn't pay
Speaker 1: me either.
Speaker 2: A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at
Speaker 2: a deadly tipping point.
Speaker 3: In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide.
Speaker 4: Pelissea.
Speaker 5: A driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing ten people.
Speaker 6: Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which
Speaker 6: I will have my revenge.
Speaker 7: Is very angry, expressing a lot of hatred towards women
Speaker 7: and towards men who get all the women.
Speaker 8: I just told my husband I know she's dead.
Speaker 1: This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio,
Speaker 1: Season one, Episode two, Blackpilled. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer
Speaker 1: at KATI Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker, Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell,
Speaker 1: and Carolyn Miller. Even as we write this script, the
Speaker 1: idea of online radicalization of all forms has been top
Speaker 1: of news.
Speaker 9: What we are seeing is people that are being radicalized
Speaker 9: typically are high and what's called the dark triad, which
Speaker 9: is macavelianism, narcissism, and psychopathy, leading us to believe that
Speaker 9: this ideology had infected him and had taken over.
Speaker 10: A lot of us are not immune to the danger
Speaker 10: of the kind of radicalization that takes place.
Speaker 1: This goes all the way up to the Senate Judiciary
Speaker 1: Committee hearing on September sixteenth. Here's Director of the FBI
Speaker 1: Cash Betel, speaking with Senator Lindsay Graham.
Speaker 10: The data shows that social media is wildly out of control.
Speaker 9: This guy's FBI director. He says that social media is
Speaker 9: wildly out of control.
Speaker 1: Online radicalization of all sorts is becoming more prevalent, specifically
Speaker 1: as it relates to an uptick in in cell ideology.
Speaker 1: Last episode, we covered the basics of what a self
Speaker 1: identifying in cell is, an involuntarily celibate man who often
Speaker 1: feels hopeless with his position in life and who can
Speaker 1: sometimes turn violent. Here's boys In Hodson, Communications and marketing
Speaker 1: director for the Mankind Project. He explains research going on
Speaker 1: in this area.
Speaker 10: There is really beautiful research out there from Equamundo than
Speaker 10: another organization called Diverting Hate. That have all been kind
Speaker 10: of looking at these things, and what they see about
Speaker 10: men who get involved in the in cell community is
Speaker 10: that they are really attached to adhering to really strict
Speaker 10: gender roles around what it means to be a man,
Speaker 10: and the more they adhere to that kind of dominance based, hierarchical,
Speaker 10: really unhealthy beliefs about women, really unhealthy beliefs about people
Speaker 10: of color, a lot of that stuff. And the more
Speaker 10: that they get attached to these rigid, unhealthy the ideas
Speaker 10: about what it means to be a man, the easier
Speaker 10: it is for them to get drawn into hating other people,
Speaker 10: to get drawn into self harm and harm of others.
Speaker 10: We talk about it as either dominance based masculinity or
Speaker 10: the man box culture.
Speaker 1: We ask Boyson to explain man box culture.
Speaker 10: The idea of the man box is that most boys
Speaker 10: and men that you speak to out there in the world,
Speaker 10: they know what they're supposed to do. They know what
Speaker 10: fits in the man box. Don't be gay, make a
Speaker 10: lot of money, keep your emotions to yourself, man up,
Speaker 10: don't hurt, don't share. All of these kinds of things
Speaker 10: that you know. Little boys start embodying these things at
Speaker 10: four or five years old. They already know what's inside
Speaker 10: the box.
Speaker 1: We spoke to Boyson about how these messages get internalized
Speaker 1: and what that does to the mindset of in cells.
Speaker 10: So the messages that many of us heard when we
Speaker 10: were younger, and this is you know, I'm in my
Speaker 10: fifties and I still remember these messages, right. Don't get
Speaker 10: vulnerable with other people, don't show your weakness, don't share
Speaker 10: your emotions, toughen up. A lot of these messages get internalized,
Speaker 10: and from those internalized messages, it is absolutely recipe for isolation.
Speaker 10: It is absolutely a recipe to stay home, not go out,
Speaker 10: only have online community, and restrict your kind of sharing
Speaker 10: about what's real and true and vulnerable about who you are.
Speaker 1: To better understand the different ideologies and cells fall into,
Speaker 1: we first need to understand the terminology that's used, starting
Speaker 1: with red pill and black pill.
Speaker 10: So there's the red pill world where you've woken up
Speaker 10: in quotation marks to the fact that you know feminism
Speaker 10: has gone too far and men are really the ones
Speaker 10: who are being victimized these days, and that is backed
Speaker 10: up in the in cell world by this idea of
Speaker 10: black pill and the blackpill science that they bring into
Speaker 10: this is really flawed versions of evolutionary science or eugenics
Speaker 10: that places human beings in very distinct hierarchies. So this
Speaker 10: idea of six' six' six six, feet tall six figure
Speaker 10: incomes six. Inches plus that's the, ideal, man right and
Speaker 10: then every other gradation of society is kind of ranked based.
Speaker 10: On that so a lot of the in cell ideology
Speaker 10: is based on really bad science that they call, black
Speaker 10: pill that they believe is these are the women, Who
Speaker 10: succeed these are the men. Who succeed i'm, Not that
Speaker 10: i'll never. Be that i'm doomed.
Speaker 1: For a deeper dive into black, pill ideology as well
Speaker 1: as the blue and red pill ideologies that go along.
Speaker 1: With it we spoke To Doctor david lay who describes
Speaker 1: the importance of in cels having their. Own Language doctor
Speaker 1: lay is a, clinical psychologist, sex therapist and author of.
Speaker 1: Multiple books he also does training for therapists around. The, world.
Speaker 2: So, you, know first it's important to recognize that having,
Speaker 2: idiosyncratic terminology having a certain language and terminology that is
Speaker 2: native and unique to a community is one of the
Speaker 2: ways of building identity because people that are outside the
Speaker 2: community don't know what these, terms mean and having the
Speaker 2: secret language keeps other people out and it builds this
Speaker 2: idea of secret knowledge. And belongingness by not only knowing,
Speaker 2: the terms but using the whole pill kind, of concept
Speaker 2: you know the red pill and. Blue pill we remember That,
Speaker 2: from matrix and, you know the red pill is when
Speaker 2: you reject society being the way you've been told it's going,
Speaker 2: to be and you decide to see underneath.
Speaker 6: The current.
Speaker 1: The people who do not see underneath the curtain are considered.
Speaker 1: Blue pilled this is someone who is not part of
Speaker 1: the in cell community and is considered ignorant of what
Speaker 1: in cells believe to be the quote truth in the in.
Speaker 1: Cell worldview those who are blue pilled believe what we'd
Speaker 1: call mainstream ideas. About relationships that personality and emotional connection
Speaker 1: are important in attracting, a partner that sex and intimacy
Speaker 1: are not commodities controlled solely, by women and that gender
Speaker 1: roles in society are not unfairly skewed. Against Men doctor
Speaker 1: lay continues describing the, bleakest designation the.
Speaker 11: Black pill, the, blackpill though is somewhat unique to the,
Speaker 11: insel community and it is a bleak cynical view that
Speaker 11: in seldom being an insul is a permanent state that
Speaker 11: cannot be overcome or altered by. An insul it's really
Speaker 11: an embracing, of hopelessness which is a unique component again
Speaker 11: of the in. Cel community that's one of the things
Speaker 11: that there's a lot of, echoes around which is you can't,
Speaker 11: get out you can't, change this and if you, try to.
Speaker 11: You'll fail and if you, try to you're not a.
Speaker 11: Real insul you're only a real insul if you accept
Speaker 11: that this is.
Speaker 2: Your existence.
Speaker 1: The concept of echo chambers came up often while producing.
Speaker 1: This podcast most, of us to, be honest. Were unfamiliar
Speaker 1: we Asked doctor lay to explain what an echo chamber
Speaker 1: is in this context and what the. Implications are.
Speaker 2: The echo chamber component of any online extreme ideology group
Speaker 2: is intended to enforce rules upon what is said and
Speaker 2: how people behave in, this community and it also sets
Speaker 2: up these men that if they ever dare to question
Speaker 2: or go against the components of the, echo chamber they
Speaker 2: are viewed, as unfaithful. As disloyal all of that is
Speaker 2: intended to shame and mandate loyalty to the echo. Chamber
Speaker 2: dialogue the reason it's an echo chamber is that it
Speaker 2: is intended to program that ideology into. People's thinking.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for, a break we'll be back in.
Speaker 1: A moment while learning about the blue pill and black,
Speaker 1: pill Designations Doctor david lay also spoke to us about
Speaker 1: what it means. To ascend.
Speaker 2: So ascend is a term that the in cells us
Speaker 2: to describe when an in cell overcomes their in cell
Speaker 2: nature and when the, in cell frankly is successful at
Speaker 2: getting a date or getting, a girlfriend getting a. Sex
Speaker 2: partner and they described that this is when he ascends
Speaker 2: past or out of his in. Cel identity but, even
Speaker 2: though and there have been a couple of, you know
Speaker 2: relatively well known in cell leaders who then quote unquote
Speaker 2: ascended and did successfully get a date or. A girlfriend
Speaker 2: and what was fascinating in those cases was that at
Speaker 2: first these guys were somewhat celebrated by their, inceel peers
Speaker 2: and then they. Were attacked then they were horrifically attacked
Speaker 2: and shamed and just cut to ribbons in these online
Speaker 2: communities by their inceell peers for, betraying them for betraying
Speaker 2: the in. Cell identity and so even though they have
Speaker 2: this term that you, can ascend the in cells encourage
Speaker 2: each other against it because it would go Against that
Speaker 2: blackpiel kind of idea that. It's hopeless.
Speaker 1: Then this language in cells used to describe others the
Speaker 1: quote normies or normal people often normies refer to those with,
Speaker 1: healthy relationships specifically romantic and. Sexual ones this brings us
Speaker 1: To the chads and the staces for a, Visual picture Barbie.
Speaker 1: And Kendall.
Speaker 2: The Chad and Stacy and becky are these terms that
Speaker 2: they that the in cels use to describe those men
Speaker 2: and women who are more qualitatively attractive. AND Desirable a
Speaker 2: chad is, you know that that man who is, you
Speaker 2: know perceived as being tall and successful and, you know
Speaker 2: traditionally handsome and desired, by women with social characteristics to
Speaker 2: qualities like wealth that will make women attracted to him
Speaker 2: and choose him over. The Insul the stacy is a more,
Speaker 2: attractive female But the stacy is is oftentimes perceived as
Speaker 2: also being kind of dumb. And shallow becky is a less,
Speaker 2: you know kind of classically, attractive woman but more more
Speaker 2: the kind of bookish sort, of female but also still
Speaker 2: again more attractive than the. End cell and again there's
Speaker 2: there's a tremendous amount of misogyny in the in, cell
Speaker 2: community and most of, their anger most of their hatred
Speaker 2: is actually reserved for the women and Not. That chad
Speaker 2: they don't talk about Killing, the chad but they do
Speaker 2: talk about the deceptiveness and the dishonesty, of Women both
Speaker 2: Becky's and stacy's that they would choose those chads over
Speaker 2: other men such as.
Speaker 3: The insuls.
Speaker 1: Another thing to look at is just where in. Cells
Speaker 1: congregate part of the reasons so little is widely known
Speaker 1: about the subculture is that they self select into different
Speaker 1: online spaces to speak openly. Among themselves Here's Producer, connor
Speaker 1: powell who has spent time engaging on in cell forums for.
Speaker 1: This podcast.
Speaker 7: There is this sort of feeling that their real life
Speaker 7: for them is behind the key board on a social,
Speaker 7: media forum Whether it's discord or the insell, community forums
Speaker 7: Or even reddit to, some Extent although reddit doesn't have
Speaker 7: as many in cells on it as it used to
Speaker 7: because they've banned a lot of the language and the
Speaker 7: behavior that you know it used.
Speaker 3: To attract.
Speaker 1: Reddit is mainly used for, community discussions with thousands of
Speaker 1: specialized forums. Called subreddits any of us might Go to
Speaker 1: reddit to discuss literally anything from the best medical shows
Speaker 1: to WATCH on tv to how to clean. Your windows,
Speaker 1: as mentioned many in cell conversations have been Banned. From
Speaker 1: reddit discord is another platform we've been hearing a lot,
Speaker 1: about lately.
Speaker 10: We're also going to be investigating anyone and everyone involved
Speaker 10: In that.
Speaker 6: Discord chat there's an increase in violent online groups using
Speaker 6: the App.
Speaker 1: CALLED discord i Spoke with Chase. About discord chase is
Speaker 1: in his, early twenties outgoing with a healthy, social life.
Speaker 1: A girlfriend.
Speaker 6: I use discord for the first time probably my freshman
Speaker 6: sophomore year of. High school it was primarily used, for
Speaker 6: gaming BUT as i started to establish more friends on,
Speaker 6: the platform it then became more of an. Interpersonal thing
Speaker 6: like a lot of people Get on discord to talk
Speaker 6: to people that they wouldn't necessarily see in. REAL life
Speaker 6: i have friends across the COUNTRY that i keep up
Speaker 6: With on DISCORD that i might not even necessarily still game,
Speaker 6: with actively like maybe here. And there but it's primarily
Speaker 6: just something where it's a community based PLATFORM that i
Speaker 6: use to talk to PEOPLE that i don't have any
Speaker 6: connection with in.
Speaker 1: REAL life I asked chase if while in the process
Speaker 1: of playing games and Chatting, on discord he only communicated
Speaker 1: with those he knew in, real life or if he connected. With, strangers, oh.
Speaker 6: Yeah it's primarily strangers and, funny ENOUGH like i have
Speaker 6: friends in real life that have introduced me to people
Speaker 6: on Discord that i've never met in, real life that
Speaker 6: have then gone on to introduce me to more people
Speaker 6: and more People in before you, know it you're a
Speaker 6: part of this twenty thirty forty person discord and you
Speaker 6: don't know ninety five percent.
Speaker 1: OF them I, asked chase with the discussion Centered, around.
Speaker 6: Honestly Especially as i've, grown older the discord has gone
Speaker 6: well above and beyond. Just gaming now we're talking, about
Speaker 6: politics we're talking about, social relationships we're talking about what
Speaker 6: people are doing in their, free time what their. Interests
Speaker 6: are it goes way. Beyond gaming and it's to the
Speaker 6: point NOW where i can SAY that i have a
Speaker 6: very solid grasp of the types of People that i'm
Speaker 6: dealing with strictly through discord without ever having actually.
Speaker 1: MET them I asked chase if he'd encountered conversations that.
Speaker 6: Turned, Volatile ABSOLUTELY and, I mean i'm not even. Gonna
Speaker 6: lie most of the people on this discord are older
Speaker 6: guys or just like guys, my age and they're. Strictly
Speaker 6: gamers and a lot of these people the farther AND
Speaker 6: farther i get removed from the PEOPLE that i know in.
Speaker 6: Real life the more people that are Different that, i'm
Speaker 6: meeting a lot of which are people that don't really
Speaker 6: have interaction with other people in. Real life like a
Speaker 6: lot of, these people most of their relationships Exist through
Speaker 6: discord or through, online platforms and it's very obvious when
Speaker 6: you're interacting with those people because they socialize a little
Speaker 6: bit differently than the people that you know in.
Speaker 1: Real life let's stop here for. Another break we'll be
Speaker 1: back in.
Speaker 8: A moment.
Speaker 1: In cell chatter can be, hate, filled menacing. And threatening
Speaker 1: in what might be the absolute worst instance of what,
Speaker 1: can Happen Producer carolyn miller Spoke With. Kim devns kim's
Speaker 1: seventeen year, Old Daughter, bianca devins was tragically killed her
Speaker 1: killer that took brutal Pictures of bianca's corpse and posted
Speaker 1: to in.
Speaker 4: Cell groups seventeen Year Old bianca Devins of utica was
Speaker 4: found dead in a wooded area at the end of.
Speaker 4: The street when police arrived on, the scene, The Suspect
Speaker 4: Brandon andrew Clark, of cicero laying on top of the
Speaker 4: tarp covering.
Speaker 3: The Body in july, twenty nineteen the social Media platform
Speaker 3: discord was buzzing about a photo that appeared to show
Speaker 3: a dead.
Speaker 10: Young woman her killer posted the images of her body
Speaker 10: online and they soon. Went viral but if that wasn't,
Speaker 10: horrific enough the images were also sent to the victim's family.
Speaker 3: On discord it's fairly common for people to post gore
Speaker 3: and disturbing images just to sort of get a rise out.
Speaker 3: Of people.
Speaker 1: The image, was shared turned, into memes and used to
Speaker 1: her As the devons family in an online campaign that
Speaker 1: goes on to. This day.
Speaker 3: My Name Is. KIM devons i am the Mother Of,
Speaker 3: bianca devons who was murdered in. TWENTY nineteen i don't
Speaker 3: want to say.
Speaker 8: His, name okay then Don't say.
Speaker 3: Bianca was she was an amazing person with so. Much
Speaker 3: potential she. Was seventeen she had just graduated high school
Speaker 3: two weeks prior to. Her death she had plans to
Speaker 3: pursue a degree. In psychology she wanted to work with
Speaker 3: adolescence because she herself struggled with some pretty severe mental.
Speaker 3: Health issues she was. Very artsy she was into music.
Speaker 3: And art she especially liked. Digital art my favorite memories
Speaker 3: are just our times of us, Being together LIKE when
Speaker 3: i Think OF bianca i always think of like she
Speaker 3: was always by. My side she, was definitely, you know
Speaker 3: my little. Best friend like since she, was little she was.
Speaker 3: Always attached was she an only child or did she
Speaker 3: have any? Brothers sisters so she has her, Younger, sister
Speaker 3: olivia and then She has maddie who is, now eight
Speaker 3: and she has a stepbrother and. To stepsisters she's the oldest.
Speaker 5: Of everyone so she had just graduated from high school
Speaker 5: and she wanted to go, to college and you said
Speaker 5: she wanted to go.
Speaker 8: Into psychology she.
Speaker 3: Was going to start in her. Community College so biaka
Speaker 3: was a young senior in. High school she, was still,
Speaker 3: you know seventeen and would have turned eighteen in. The
Speaker 3: fall so she wasn't ready to leave. Home yet so
Speaker 3: she had decided she wanted to do her first two
Speaker 3: years at community college and then she would transfer to
Speaker 3: a four. Year school but she wasn't ready to leave.
Speaker 3: Me Yet, so biaka you never knew what kind of
Speaker 3: like aesthetic she was gonna have from day. To day
Speaker 3: she often dyed her hair in the middle of. The
Speaker 3: night we never knew what we were going to wake
Speaker 3: up to. Color hair she. Was seventeen she was just
Speaker 3: kind of. Finding herself she was just very much a,
Speaker 3: free spirit but confident, in herself like she knew she
Speaker 3: kind of merged to the beat of her, own drum
Speaker 3: but had confidence.
Speaker 2: In that.
Speaker 8: You don't have to say, His name i'll. Say it
Speaker 8: She Knew. Brandon clark would you consider?
Speaker 3: Them friends they were. Good friends we all, knew him.
Speaker 3: You know she'd introduced him to everyone in. The family
Speaker 3: they hadn't known each other for like, too long but
Speaker 3: it was a, few months, and yeah they were.
Speaker 1: Good Friends on, july thirteenth, Twenty nineteen bianca went to
Speaker 1: a Concert With. Brandon clark He murdered bianca in the
Speaker 1: early Morning of. July fourteenth it's been widely Reported that
Speaker 1: bianca met up with a male friend, Of, hers alex at,
Speaker 1: the concert that the pair shared, a kiss and that's
Speaker 1: somehow it Quote set brandon off and led to. The
Speaker 1: murder we asked him to clarify the events of. The, evening.
Speaker 3: No that is. A misconception he had planned this. Very
Speaker 3: clearly there's clear evidence at least a, week prior including
Speaker 3: on a note in his notesap on his Phone from
Speaker 3: july eleventh entitled, murder suicide and he had a list
Speaker 3: he makes lists for, LIKE everything i mean down to
Speaker 3: like his. Favorite cereals they found in his jail sadelel
Speaker 3: List of so there was a list that was Created on,
Speaker 3: july eleventh and there was other evidence Prior to july
Speaker 3: eleventh of. His planning if he was.
Speaker 8: Planning this did he ever have a motive as.
Speaker 3: To, why no he still maintains it was just extreme.
Speaker 3: Emotional disturbance he has never given us. A why if
Speaker 3: we had gone, to trial the motive presented by the
Speaker 3: prosecution would have been. Number one he was just obsessed
Speaker 3: with murder and it was something that he researched, a
Speaker 3: lot and, you know read up on a lot of
Speaker 3: different serial killers and, you know. Murder cases and he
Speaker 3: was very Jealous. Of bianca she had this really. Bright
Speaker 3: future she just kind of had everything that he didn't
Speaker 3: and that. He wanted part of the motive would have
Speaker 3: been LIKE if i can't, have you no. One Can
Speaker 3: because bianca had made it very clear that they were
Speaker 3: just friends and he definitely wanted more and. She didn't
Speaker 3: she just wanted to. Be friends so that was definitely
Speaker 3: another part of his motive was extreme jealousy AND if
Speaker 3: i can't, have you no. One can one of my
Speaker 3: vivid memories is sitting down with the police at the
Speaker 3: police station and them telling me there were no red
Speaker 3: FLAGS because i WHAT did? I miss i did not.
Speaker 3: SEE anything i never would have, Expected this and they,
Speaker 3: were like there really weren't any red flags that you could.
Speaker 3: Have seen and it wasn't necessarily this concert or any type.
Speaker 3: Of event it was just he's. A murderer he's evil
Speaker 3: and if it wasn't, your daughter and if, it wasn't,
Speaker 3: you know after, this concert it would have been. Someone else.
Speaker 1: Another time we asked him to walk us through what
Speaker 1: happened at. Her home the Morning of, JULY fourteenth i.
Speaker 3: Was woken up by My, daughter olivia who was fifteen at,
Speaker 3: the time and, she said the police are here Something.
Speaker 3: About bianca it was like little after, seven am so
Speaker 3: she's just woken up kind. Of us they presented that
Speaker 3: they were coming for a. Welfare check, that first, you
Speaker 3: know we're saying with bank, your daughter is? She here
Speaker 3: and then they asked me if she went to, a
Speaker 3: concert and then said that he had posted some concerning
Speaker 3: things on the internet that he may have.
Speaker 2: Hurt her.
Speaker 8: What happened?
Speaker 3: After that at the time that they came to. My
Speaker 3: house the police were also getting calls from people In
Speaker 3: the discoord server where the picture was, originally posted and
Speaker 3: THEN they i know that they received a call from,
Speaker 3: his aunt who he had called after. The murder he
Speaker 3: had called and left several messages on family, members' phones
Speaker 3: and then at some point while they were still at,
Speaker 3: my house he called them. One himself in, the meantime
Speaker 3: while we were trying to figure, this out, you know
Speaker 3: we were all going through. Our Phones bianca's instagram was
Speaker 3: logged into, my PHONE so i was going through her
Speaker 3: messages to try to find messages between him and her
Speaker 3: to see if there was any THING that i. Could
Speaker 3: find and as we were, doing that my best friend
Speaker 3: lived with me at, the time and she saw the
Speaker 3: Picture on instagram and brought it out to my father
Speaker 3: who was outside talking to. The police so my father
Speaker 3: and my friend knew pretty early on that most likely
Speaker 3: she had. Been killed.
Speaker 8: He took a photo of her and posted.
Speaker 3: It, online yes he Took, several yeah and he did that. Right,
Speaker 3: away yes he recorded the, entire thing and then he
Speaker 3: did take some, still photos posted that On her, discord
Speaker 3: server and then he moved her out of his car
Speaker 3: covered her with. A tarp he took several photos he
Speaker 3: Posted to instagram, in snapchat, you know with her body
Speaker 3: covered in the background with the knife. Of himself he
Speaker 3: spray painted May You Never forget me on the roadway
Speaker 3: in front of. His car he started a fire and
Speaker 3: like tried to burn a laptop in a hard drive
Speaker 3: and some. Other things really kind of like try to
Speaker 3: make this as sensationalized. As, possible really, you know the
Speaker 3: most attention seeking is as he. Passively could and then
Speaker 3: he made sure to call name one. ONE himself i
Speaker 3: think the police knew we're trying to confirm things before,
Speaker 3: telling us but we knew that something had happened to
Speaker 3: Be and olivia's friend immediately came over and a round the,
Speaker 3: same time the police told us that they, you know they,
Speaker 3: found him and, they found, you know a woman that
Speaker 3: matched the, act's description and they believe it.
Speaker 8: Was her.
Speaker 3: OLIVIA'S friend i just, heard This like i've never heard
Speaker 3: such a scream in, my life as like literal just.
Speaker 3: Horrible Scream and olivia's friend had been sent the Picture.
Speaker 3: On instagram he was fifteen at the.
Speaker 8: Time too he tried to.
Speaker 5: Commit suicide he thought it was going to be a,
Speaker 5: murder suicide and when they, got there he attempted to
Speaker 5: slit his, own throat.
Speaker 3: So he waited for the police to. Show up before he,
Speaker 3: did that he took pictures laying on top, of her
Speaker 3: waited for the police to, show up took a picture
Speaker 3: and posted like as he was letting, his throat took
Speaker 3: a picture and posted It. To snapchat and then as
Speaker 3: they were wheeling him away in, the ambulance he was
Speaker 3: asking the police how many news stations had picked up.
Speaker 3: The story oh. My god SO when I say i
Speaker 3: don't want to give him the attention that, he's seeking
Speaker 3: it's like every single thing he did was to get
Speaker 3: as much attention on him.
Speaker 5: AS possible i can imagine you guys are just losing
Speaker 5: your minds about all the photos that were posted and
Speaker 5: the images that are. Being circulated what did that do
Speaker 5: to your.
Speaker 3: GRIEVING process i just think we were so much in
Speaker 3: shock and disbelief that like this had actually happened, to
Speaker 3: her like that he had done this. TO her i
Speaker 3: don't think we really processed that her picture had, Gone
Speaker 3: viral and, you know it was a few days after
Speaker 3: and then the police had told, us like, you know
Speaker 3: we are getting, you know they're just coming in, so
Speaker 3: Fast like Instagram and facebook are just telling, us like
Speaker 3: we don't know if we can. Stop this like people
Speaker 3: would Tell me, biaco's trending and, you Know Irap bianca devins,
Speaker 3: was trending and it just none of that really made
Speaker 3: sense to me at.
Speaker 1: The time, like many if, not, Most teenagers bianca spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time online on, various platforms including discord
Speaker 1: that's where the death picture was originally posted and began its,
Speaker 1: insidious circulation propelled by. In cells we asked him if
Speaker 1: she knew at the time what an. Insul, was.
Speaker 3: Yes it was A term. BIAKA used, I mean i
Speaker 3: wouldn't say she used, it often but once in. A while,
Speaker 3: you know biakare just telling me about like things going
Speaker 3: on In her internet groups and with. Her friends, YOU
Speaker 3: know i was familiar with the term. In cell, you
Speaker 3: know she would tell me about like in cells On
Speaker 3: four chan posting about her who represented everything that in, cels, hate,
Speaker 3: Beautiful confident she oftentimes would help other young girls her
Speaker 3: age recognize these in cels were trying to groom them and,
Speaker 3: you know get them away. From them that the in.
Speaker 3: Cel abuse So the intel community and these, you know
Speaker 3: kind of dark Websites like fourtan and some discordsers like
Speaker 3: they already hated her to begin with because she thwarted
Speaker 3: their plans and she stood for everything that. They hated
Speaker 3: they typically, hate strong. Independent women, SO yeah, I was
Speaker 3: i was familiar with the term at. The time i've
Speaker 3: spoken to several experts and in cells. And psychologists he's
Speaker 3: not necessarily considered an in cell because he did. Have
Speaker 3: girlfriends he did other Girlfriends and bianca, and Stuff. Murdering
Speaker 3: bianca these in Cels took brandon and put him on.
Speaker 3: A pedestal he was now their hero because, you know
Speaker 3: he took out. This egirl.
Speaker 1: An egirl stands for electronic or, internet girl popularized on social.
Speaker 1: Media platforms often egirls have distinctive fashion aesthetics that my
Speaker 1: blend emo and, anime styles frequently paired with vibrantly dyed
Speaker 1: hair and. Wing dyeliner.
Speaker 3: The thing that, they hated, you know this one particular
Speaker 3: egir that they. ESPECIALLY hated i think a lot of
Speaker 3: experts agree we wouldn't consider him an in cell at.
Speaker 3: That point he did have some of the tendencies and, you.
Speaker 3: Know ideology but what he did and then the way
Speaker 3: that he posted all the pictures brought out all the
Speaker 3: in cells and the Spread of bianca's picture was the
Speaker 3: in cells and, you know, the messages the horrific messages
Speaker 3: that friends and family. Were receiving that was all all
Speaker 3: that harassment was coming from the in. CELL community i
Speaker 3: mean they were making social, media pages, you know praising
Speaker 3: him as a hero and giving him the attention that
Speaker 3: he was looking for While harassing biaka's family and. Exploiting
Speaker 3: her and do you still get those to? THIS day, i,
Speaker 3: do definitely not, as often but every once in, a
Speaker 3: while like you just never know when you're going to find,
Speaker 3: a post someone's going to tell you about, a post
Speaker 3: when you're going to get. A message but even, you
Speaker 3: know to this day now that her, you know the
Speaker 3: older the kid's youngest kids are, now, eight, fourteen, Fifteen
Speaker 3: sixteen so now it's just this constant fear of are
Speaker 3: they going to come across? The picture are they going
Speaker 3: to come across these posts with these people are saying
Speaker 3: horrible things about their sister and that she. DESERVED it,
Speaker 3: i mean to, this day if you Go On, biaka's
Speaker 3: instagram there's comments saying that she deserved it and just saying.
Speaker 3: AWFUL things i didn't see the picture for about a
Speaker 3: year and. A half anytime there was a notification on,
Speaker 3: my phone someone else picked up my. Phone first and
Speaker 3: then about eighteen months after, HER past i was just
Speaker 3: scrolling on my phone one NIGHT and i Got an
Speaker 3: instagram notification and the profile picture was the. Death photo
Speaker 3: what did that do?
Speaker 4: To?
Speaker 3: You mentally there's no way to, describe IT because i
Speaker 3: already was just. So broken that was. My baby no
Speaker 3: one should ever have to, see anyone let alone their child.
Speaker 5: Like that so he goes, to trial he does get,
Speaker 5: found guilty and he got twenty five years. To life
Speaker 5: do you feel that you got Justice for brianca or
Speaker 5: that was that enough?
Speaker 1: For?
Speaker 3: YOU no i don't think there's a justice in this situation.
Speaker 3: At all you keep there's no bringing. Her back even
Speaker 3: if he was able to be charged with first degree
Speaker 3: murder and, you know was sentenced to life, WITHOUT parole
Speaker 3: i don't feel. THAT'S justice i. DON'T feel i, don't, know, like,
Speaker 3: yeah okay he's going to set his life. IN prison
Speaker 3: i felt more Justice when bianca's life was Passed In
Speaker 3: New york state.
Speaker 1: We asked him To explain bianca's law as well as
Speaker 1: who helped her make progress. WITH it.
Speaker 3: A couple of Weeks after, brihanca's death we started tracking
Speaker 3: how many times these messages were being sent, to us
Speaker 3: how many like we literally had, exiuse spreadsheets and we
Speaker 3: were tracking where, they were, you know where they were being,
Speaker 3: uploaded to who they were being, sent to how long
Speaker 3: it was taking for them to be, taken down, you
Speaker 3: know if they were, being reported what was the outcome of,
Speaker 3: the report, The response and so we contacted our. Local
Speaker 3: congressmen this is just something that really rocked. Our community
Speaker 3: and he had brought up the, you know we went
Speaker 3: to him for help because we could not get a
Speaker 3: hold of Anyone at Instagram, or facebook and they were
Speaker 3: the main social media platforms that were allowing these pictures to.
Speaker 3: BE shared i know that within like the, First week
Speaker 3: instagram Told the uticul, police, department like we just can't.
Speaker 3: Do anything it's we're just being flooded with. The pictures
Speaker 3: it's being shared. Too often we just can't. Stop it
Speaker 3: they just really overstated what, they did what they were going,
Speaker 3: to do, you know to prevent the pictures from being
Speaker 3: spread they never really followed through, with anything, you know
Speaker 3: and they just they kind of, always, said well, you know,
Speaker 3: our technology it can't, you know. Catch everything so now.
Speaker 8: You have this congressman. On, board yes so what does he?
Speaker 3: Get started he introduced a bail for A Federal beiyanca's law.
Speaker 8: And tell Us what byanca's, law is so it's changed.
Speaker 3: Over time one of our legislative writers actually rode up
Speaker 3: drafted a really, really good in depth version of A
Speaker 3: Federal beyanca's law that would, you know have carve outs
Speaker 3: to repeal section two thirty so that these companies would
Speaker 3: be held liable if these companies are aware of an
Speaker 3: offending picture that goes against, their guidelines and it would be,
Speaker 3: you know as defined in, this bill they are then
Speaker 3: liable for making sure that it's not shared on. Their
Speaker 3: platform it would also create a parent's bill of right
Speaker 3: and this basically would force the companies to set up
Speaker 3: a centralized. Crisis, center WHO like, i said when this
Speaker 3: happened to us and these pictures were spreading and, GOING
Speaker 3: viral i was very LUCKY that i had a personal
Speaker 3: connection to someone. In power most people don't. Have that
Speaker 3: and these companies really do need to have a designated
Speaker 3: crisis center so that you can speak to someone outside
Speaker 3: of the in app reporting that you're just reporting to.
Speaker 3: A computer and it would not only apply to. Graphic
Speaker 3: photos that would, you know, child pornography, child grooming things,
Speaker 3: like that and then it would also make it a
Speaker 3: crime and there would be some, you know civil liability
Speaker 3: for people that are sharing. These photos on the, federal
Speaker 3: level what, Happened nothing it. Got, dropped Unfortunately when biden was,
Speaker 3: in office he had task force dealing with social. Media
Speaker 3: regulation he had social Media task force was it was
Speaker 3: a part Of his Violence against Women. Task Force and
Speaker 3: i've had. Several conversations we've all seen the, you know
Speaker 3: the social media Hearings. In congress Now that trump's, taken,
Speaker 3: over unfortunately that has all kind of. Gone Away even
Speaker 3: Instagram and facebook they've repealed a lot of their community guidelines,
Speaker 3: and regulations so, you know we've really taken a lot of.
Speaker 3: Steps backwards we did Pass A new york state law
Speaker 3: which is it's very limiting because it only Applies To New.
Speaker 3: York state, so basically if that's something's being shared With
Speaker 3: The New york state and that IS. Called Niaka and
Speaker 3: caroline's law that makes it a crime to share crime
Speaker 3: scene photos any kind of graphic crime scene photos with
Speaker 3: the intent, to harm SO that i mean that's always it's,
Speaker 3: very encouraging but it's also it's just very limited because
Speaker 3: it's just a. STATE law, i, mean ideally we need.
Speaker 3: International regulation and THAT'S where i really felt like we had, some, Justice,
Speaker 3: like okay we're. Doing something we are because that's automatically
Speaker 3: like when, THIS happened i just Went into, mamma, Bearmon,
Speaker 3: like okay we're not going to have her more exploited in,
Speaker 3: Her DEATH like i still have to protect. My daughter
Speaker 3: and by working on laws so that other people don't
Speaker 3: have to go through what we went through and we
Speaker 3: are still, going through WAS where i found some JUSTICE
Speaker 3: and i felt like, we were, you know actually doing Something.
Speaker 3: For bianca it's DEFINITELY something i will always. Advocate for
Speaker 3: and it's hard to see the. Harassment online it is
Speaker 3: hard to see people saying negative things and just really
Speaker 3: vile things about. Your daughter, you know my mom always
Speaker 3: does the like consider, the source, you know do we
Speaker 3: really care what these insuls in like the basements or,
Speaker 3: you know with no life, saying right like definitely with,
Speaker 3: The internet i've seen the worst parts Of, the internet
Speaker 3: but the best parts Of, the internet and the people
Speaker 3: telling me how much my daughter helped them even in,
Speaker 3: Her death like the message that she's in her spirit
Speaker 3: and how much like hope people are getting from her
Speaker 3: story and from, you know seeing things that, she's written
Speaker 3: her videos that definitely outweighs the bad and that in
Speaker 3: our darkest, worst times that is definitely what helps carry.
Speaker 3: Us through and my biggest piece of advice is to
Speaker 3: just watch your kids and know what. They're doing PIANK
Speaker 3: and i were. VERY close i manaitored both my children's,
Speaker 3: Social MEDIA so i am not going TO say i
Speaker 3: would never SAY that i always knew exactly what she.
Speaker 3: Was doing she, Was seventeen like she knew how to,
Speaker 3: hide things exactly everything she was doing In. The INTERNET
Speaker 3: but i was pretty knowledgeable About, the internet the, different
Speaker 3: websites the, different apps what was. Going ON and i
Speaker 3: think that that's like the biggest message with your kids
Speaker 3: is just the end or not can be a, great
Speaker 3: place but also it can be. Very dangerous so it's
Speaker 3: very very easy to get indoctrinated in, these dark, evil
Speaker 3: websites and, you know these, intel websites They're, just yeah
Speaker 3: it's such that you can't even, imagine that like that
Speaker 3: people are talking about and like the theories they come,
Speaker 3: up with in the ideals that they have and the messages.
Speaker 3: They're spreading it alters, your brain just as like someone
Speaker 3: that you, would think right is like your average. Normal
Speaker 3: person just you can't tell, me that like reading that
Speaker 3: doesn't alter your brain at some point and if you
Speaker 3: are reading it enough and then you start like connecting.
Speaker 1: With that kim is talking about, echo chambers Which doctor
Speaker 1: lay described to us earlier in. This episode what happened
Speaker 1: To the devin's family is a prime and hideous example
Speaker 1: of what constant negativity and violent messages with no escape.
Speaker 3: Can do and that's the problem With the internet is
Speaker 3: you would never be talking about this stuff out. In,
Speaker 3: public people most people would never be saying these things
Speaker 3: in public now wouldn't be ALLOWED on tv or, streaming
Speaker 3: services any kind of. Cable networks IT'S while, I knew
Speaker 3: i personally knew how special my, daughter was it was
Speaker 3: really really nice to see how special she was to.
Speaker 3: The world and, you know even to, THIS day i
Speaker 3: still get messages and that's amazing, to see, you know
Speaker 3: she really is still making an impact on people. ALL
Speaker 3: over i hate, when people as they said it a
Speaker 3: lot in, the beginning we'll just get off, the internet
Speaker 3: stay off. Social media but why WHY should i not
Speaker 3: be able to Get supports like there are so many
Speaker 3: good support Groups, on facebook, you know for parents that
Speaker 3: have lost, their children or, grief groups and ESPECIALLY. Through covid,
Speaker 3: YOU know covid happened just a few months after. Her
Speaker 3: passing and WHY can i not connect for support or
Speaker 3: stay in contact with my family just because there's a
Speaker 3: certain set of evil people that want to. Ruin THINGS
Speaker 3: so i always hated that when people, Were like i'll just. Stay,
Speaker 3: off no why don't we regulate it and make it safe?
Speaker 3: For everyone it just needs to. BE safer i think
Speaker 3: our laws have not caught up to the technology and.
Speaker 3: THE times, i mean just as recently As The charlie.
Speaker 3: Clark murder no one needs to see someone, getting, shot
Speaker 3: right even like the new channels that, we're showing like
Speaker 3: the blurred, out video you can report on news without
Speaker 3: having to show something That, GRAPHIC like i feel like
Speaker 3: people have just become so desensitized and it's just it's things.
Speaker 3: Like that it's just NOT necessary. I don't i don't
Speaker 3: understand the sensationalism and how people just don't think anything
Speaker 3: of watching someone get shot. AND die i don't, understand
Speaker 3: it but, it definitely, you know our society has just
Speaker 3: become way too desensitized. To violence, so yes we, need
Speaker 3: regulation we. NEED laws i don't Know that i'll ever.
Speaker 3: Accept it how do you accept that your daughter is never?
Speaker 3: Coming home, you know this seventeen year old, Healthy GIRL
Speaker 3: and i.
Speaker 2: DON'T know i.
Speaker 3: DON'T know i think that we just survive.
Speaker 5: Each day was there also a scholarship Formed in?
Speaker 3: Bianca's, name yes so we formed a scholarship and the
Speaker 3: scholarship goes to a college student at our local university
Speaker 3: that is pursuing psychology and specifically with the intent to work.
Speaker 3: With adolescents so kind of a way to help people
Speaker 3: To achieve.
Speaker 1: Bianca's, dream finally We, ASKED kim, i said any final
Speaker 1: ways She'd like bianca's memory to be?
Speaker 3: Carried on Be, like bianca, be kind don't spread negativity on.
Speaker 3: The internet.
Speaker 1: For more information on the case and, relevant photos follow
Speaker 1: Us on Instagram at Kati On. Score Studios in cells
Speaker 1: is Produced By Stephanie Leideger gabriel castillo And Me. Courtney
Speaker 1: armstrong additional Producing By connor Powell And, Carolyn miller Editing By,
Speaker 1: jeff tooi Music By. Vanicore Studios in cells is a
Speaker 1: PRODUCTION Of kt Studios And. iHeart radio for more podcasts,
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