WEBVTT - DNA Detective 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:04.040 I was worring, Eugene. I don't remember the time. I 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:07.400 think it was morning, but I don't remember June twenty seventh, 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:08.479 nineteen eighty four. 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.319 And do you wonder about what the day was like 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:12.560 that you came into this world? 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:13.280 I do. 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.079 I mean, I wonder I've heard she was induced, but 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:19.640 I'm not really sure. So I wonder what it was like. 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.720 Was she in her jail cell and her water broke 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.639 and she was rushed to the hospital, or you know, 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:28.400 was it planned for that day? 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:30.960 And then, you know, I wonder what. 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.440 It was like after I was born, as she was 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:35.720 showing me off and you know that sort of stuff. 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.200 It's a little strange to me. But I'm wondering being 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:41.599 taken away from her, how did that go? Because I 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:44.920 remember when when I gave my son to the nurse, 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.400 it broke me. You know that that was that was 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.560 a moment of just pain, sheer pain. But I knew 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.840 he was going somewhere where he would be, you know, well, 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:57.120 taken care of and loved. And I chose that family. 0:00:57.280 --> 0:00:59.720 So it's a little bit different than Diane, where she 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.279 didn't get to choose the family, and you know, she 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:04.000 didn't have a say in any of it. In no 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.120 way am I saying she's a victim. I'm just saying 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.280 that it might have been hard on her, but with 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:13.720 her mental state, it may not have been anything to her. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.200 I guess that's kind of what I'm curious is how 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:18.840 did she handle it but she just like, okay, take 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.640 my kid, or was it hard for her? 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:22.440 Okay? 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.240 I just have one more question, is that Okay, when 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:29.520 you reached out to Diane and asked her about what 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.280 was that like bringing me into the world, what was 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:32.840 her answer? 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:35.039 She was acting like it was the best thing in 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:37.880 the world, you know, and how she was so happy 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.160 and she got to hold me and how much she 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.600 loved me. And she didn't say anything about having to 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.480 hand me over or me being taken away or anything 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:50.400 like that. It was just that she got to hold 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.760 me for a very long time. And I don't know, 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.320 it still kind of red creeps me out a little bit. 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:55.760 I don't know. 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.480 It's just really strange to be born from a person 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.760 that you cannot relate to. You know, that's my biological mother, 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:05.400 But I don't understand her at all. 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:06.920 I don't ever want to be here. 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.520 I was about eight years old when my adoptive mom 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.760 started telling me about my biological mom, about how she 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.200 had done bad things. And I continued to ask and 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:34.000 pester her throughout the next three years, and she finally 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:35.760 got to the point where she just decided, you know, 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:38.160 you're not old enough to know this is something that's awful. 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.280 I don't ever want to tell you. In a sense 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.400 as a little kid, it was more curiosity than anything. 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.600 I was frustrated with her, and I was a little 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.959 angry that she wouldn't tell me, and so I really 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:52.920 just wanted to know. And then once I got that 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:55.799 in my head that I wanted to know that they were, 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.880 you know who she was because my mom had given 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:01.960 me little tidbits, you know that she was bad, that 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.240 she was in jail, that all this stuff, and I 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.600 wanted to know why. So it was more frustrating, and 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:09.520 I was a little bit angry when she wouldn't tell me, 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:11.720 And then my brain went to work of how can 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:12.960 I find out on my own. 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.280 And of course by tricking her babysitter, Becky did finally 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:21.320 find out who her mother was. Later, after watching Small Sacrifices. 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.119 Eric Mason was one of the first people to help 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.680 Becky bring her story to the press, and has a 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:30.239 unique insight into Becky's reasons for wanting her story out 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:31.000 into the world. 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:35.880 Yeah, well, I think all of us have family secrets. 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:41.320 We all have that crazy uncle, we all have something 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:43.360 that we don't want to share with the rest of 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:47.800 the world. And so as a story that one day 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.360 Becky living in Bend is watching Farah Fawcet in the 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:58.360 movie Small Sacrifices on television and thinking to herself, oh, 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.400 my god, that is my mother. That in that sense, 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:06.680 we all have to come to terms with what came 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:11.840 before us and who came before us, and their crimes 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.200 or their contributions, and to make peace with all of 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.440 it is to understand ourselves a whole lot more. And 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.200 so you know, the journey that we are all on 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:29.320 is to understand why. And with Rebecca Wow, she has 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:32.480 a lot of it that she can read about watch 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:35.880 and that she has kind of a front row seat 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:42.040 to this very infamous person and in so doing being 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.200 able to talk about it in the magazine and on 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:49.039 twenty twenty and on Oprah being able to talk about it, 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.440 and everyone think to themselves, you know what, I think 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.880 I can deal with my past a little bit better too. 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:57.520 You know, it's been surprising to me, Eric, is that 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.159 when I've been working on this case, I've had people 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.640 attached to the case that worked with the children, anybody 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.920 who's worked with Christy or Danny or came in contact 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:13.919 with the deceased. Cheryl told me, why why does anybody 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.839 care about Becky's story? She didn't get shocked, like that's 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.680 kind of surprising to me, Like, what is she really 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:25.440 suffering from? She was raised by a fabulous family. Why 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:27.919 do this big quest? Is she just seeking fame? 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.680 Yeah, that's a good point. I mean when the woman 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:36.360 came to me who was in the film festival from 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.479 Ben and said, do you want to meet Dianoun's daughter, 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.560 I was like, Oh my god, could this even be true? 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.800 And I don't think she really was per se looking 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:50.599 for that. I think she was searching for the understanding 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.960 of her own life. And I think she saw journalism 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.520 and getting the story out there as a way to 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:00.280 maybe find the other missing pieces of the puzzle. And 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.160 so sort of crying out to the universe is not 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.360 such a bad thing. I mean, I think in some 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:11.080 ways it's therapeutic, and for her, I think The point 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.719 of the story is this is the amazing control part 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:17.720 of the experiment is she was raised in the absolute 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:24.960 best surroundings environment, place to live, resources from parents, and 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:31.200 yet she felt this toe from the water of that genetics, 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.719 and it still was pulling on her and still in 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:40.080 controlling her, even from in some ways from a prison 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:43.880 in California. There was this element there that was just 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:48.679 really strong, this current. And to be able to fight 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:51.479 that current, you really have to understand and do your 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:54.440 work to figure out how to overcome it. 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.280 When we contacted Diane Downs about this podcast, she responded 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:03.000 with a short and somewhat strange letter claiming that Becky 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.719 was not her biological daughter. And even more odd was 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.680 the fact that she included several Q tips enclosed in 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.360 a small plastic bag inside an envelope with the words 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.480 try it glued to the front, presumably saturated with her saliva, 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.840 so that we could have her DNA. In Becky's quest 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.760 to find out more about her family lineage, DNA is 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.640 all she really has to start with. We enlisted the 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.840 help of a DNA detective to help with the process, 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.280 but first we spoke to doctor Greg hammikin a DNA 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.320 expert to learn a bit about the process and what 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:37.080 to expect. 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.600 You know, my mother told me not to talk about myself. 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.160 I violate that constantly, So tell. 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.280 Your mom you have permission to brag. 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:54.640 I started about twenty something years ago doing forensic work. 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:59.240 Got into forensics really through teaching. I started using a 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:04.240 murder scenario with the DNA. But then I met Calvin Johnson, 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.600 who was a guy who got out through DNA through 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.400 the Innocence Project in New York. He was released near 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.680 where I was teaching in Georgia. He'd done seventeen years 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.560 in prison, and he's on the radio talking and they 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:19.960 asked him, how do you feel about the criminal justice 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.080 system now? And he said, you got to have laws. 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.840 He's not better. He's just a really great guy and 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.560 believes in the system still after what he's been through. 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.160 So we invited him too school, and as he was 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.480 speaking to my students, I wrote chapter one of Exits 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:40.880 to Freedom, which became his autobiography. After that book, in 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:45.480 nineteen ninety nine, I started getting casework because people thought, well, 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.679 if I can write about it, maybe I could help 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.200 out with some cases. So I started doing case for free, 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.439 helping out and then I testified, came back to Georgia, 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.720 tried to start a Georgia Innocence Project, and there were 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.720 already some students doing at the law school. So I 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.520 got on their board as the DNA expert and we 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:10.400 started working down there, and I think they worked on 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.080 six cases with people goingxonerate with them. When I was 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.680 in London working on a private case, I was doing 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.040 research on how they do things in Europe, and so 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.360 I got in touch with Amanda Knox's being she was 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.839 a trial at that point. I joined the team, got 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.360 a bunch of American experts to look at the case 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.240 along with with Johnson. She was doing the same thing. 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:36.280 We wrote a report to the court, the court couldn't 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.920 accept it. She's convicted, and then I just kept working 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.040 on a case of the family for about four years. 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.160 That case really got so much press attention and so 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:51.360 many fans and people who hated her. It was kind 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.680 of like you know, O Jay's case. It was such 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:58.600 a controversial case. So that really kind of thrusts our 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:01.560 little project with much more in the limelight for a while, 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:03.839 both in positive and negative ways. 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.320 I called you a couple of weeks ago because I 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:11.920 wanted to ask you where to start with DNA because 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.880 Becky and I are on an interesting journey together and 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:22.240 I have no knowledge of DNA, and it's critical to 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.559 the journey that Becky and I are going on. 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:29.680 I am the biological daughter of Diane Downes, and I 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:34.600 am just curious about everything with DNA. So Diane actually 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.400 denies that I'm her biological daughter. My original birth certificate 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.679 actually says that she is my birth mother. Diane has 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.600 sent her DNA to the studio so that we can, 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.880 you know, try and match that. But I'm actually really 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.440 interested to going to search for my biological father. Would 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.080 that be something that we could do with running my 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.120 DNA through some system. 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.480 We found out that, due to Becky's ethnic background, is 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.880 actually highly likely that she'll be able to find a 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.640 lot of information through commercial DNA service. 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:11.160 There's good news in that because the American genealogical databases 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:16.960 are populated disproportionately with Caucasians, whereas the criminal databases are not. 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.199 It's just just the opposite and the criminal databases, you know, 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.240 the good news for Caucasians who are looking for their 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.160 families is you're likely to get a lot of information 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.280 from any of the commercial genealogy companies. 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:33.640 According to doctor Greg interestingly enough, men often have a 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.800 much easier time tracing the lineage. 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:40.000 Because that men definitely you know, usually gives their last name. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.160 But no, you should be able to find out pretty 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.640 easily with the genetic test that you can send off 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.120 to any of the commercial shops and they link to 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.240 all these great pay pertrayals. There are lots of things 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.600 people are doing that with the through these ancestry records. 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:56.800 I don't think you're going to have a terrible problem 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.800 finding at least the lineage of both your parents. 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:04.439 Doctor Gray continued to explain some of the technical aspects 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:07.800 of examining DNA, as well as the process itself and 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.440 some of the science behind it, but ultimately his suggestion 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.000 was that we contact a genealogist, someone whose job it 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.720 is to do a deep dive into the results provided 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:21.080 by commercial DNA service and really trace the backgrounds and 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.400 family lines by using the results as a foundation and 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:38.640 researching beyond them. So we reached out to Michelle Leonard, 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:40.800 a self proclaimed DNA detective. 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:46.520 I'm Michelle, and I am a professional genealogist, a DNA detective, 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:51.319 an author, a historian, and my main specialism is working 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:57.840 with DNA testing in order to identify unknown ancestors, so 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:02.560 all sorts of unknown ancestor misters mainly unknown parentage so 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.800 unknown parents, unknown grandparents. But people will come to me 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.000 with more distant unknown ancestor mysteries as well, like ann 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:13.200 great and second great grandparents. What I do is I 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:18.559 marry up all my years of genealogical expertise in creating 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:23.520 and building family trees and in living person tracing, and 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:29.160 with my DNA know how to try and identify these 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:34.480 mystery ancestors. In general, people will come to me because 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.480 they've heard or maybe they've seen something on TV, or 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:41.200 they've read an article, or they've just found out that 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.440 DNA testing can help with their mystery. Some people come 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.960 to me right at the beginning, like I think Becky is, 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.559 where they've not yet done any testing. They don't know 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:53.560 where they should test, they don't know how to go 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.360 about it. They've just found out. They've got this idea 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.760 that doing DNA testing might solve their mystery, might help 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:01.600 them find out who their father was or who their 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.040 grandfather was, that kind of thing. Others will come to 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.000 me after they've tested, and they don't know what to 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.640 do with it, and so they maybe google for a 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:15.480 DNA expert, a DNA detective, or a genetic genealogist, and 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.959 they might hit upon me and contact me. At that point, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.520 they might already have been building perhaps a maternal tree 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.640 or trees for the lines that they know of, and 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.560 they want to do it themselves, but then they just 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.480 hit a roadblock and they can't get any further, and 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.120 they're frustrated with it, and they think, I need somebody 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.360 with a bit more expertise on this than I have, 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:38.720 and then they'll come to me at that point. 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.200 One of the advantages of knowing your family line is 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.800 having an understanding of their medical history. Becky has experienced 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.520 some health problems in recent years, and she believes that 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.560 knowing who her father is will help provide some insight 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.200 to not only where she comes from, but also help 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.000 establish a background on some of the medical problems she 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:58.960 may be genetically predisposed to. 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.040 I just would like to find out who my biological 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:08.360 father is, not because my family life is disrupted or unhealthy. 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.080 Because my parents are amazing. I love them dearly, but 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.600 I'm just getting older. I have quite a bit of 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.560 health problems that are going on as I'm aging, and 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.800 I'm realizing that I never met my biological father, and 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.040 it is something that I kind of wanted to do. 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.240 Oh, medical history is something important, then. 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:28.960 Yes, definitely. 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:30.840 It's it's like when you go to the doctor and 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.160 they say, you know, do you have family history of xyz? 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:36.840 I always have to put adopted. I don't know. 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:39.880 And you can see there's a big part of Becky 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.240 that needs to know that some part of her comes 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:43.200 from something decent. 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.800 Many many people have said that to me, and they 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.440 want to know what their medical history is, and you know, 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.600 I think everyone has a right to know that as well. 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.160 Yeah, And I mean I really just want to know 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.160 where I come from. I want to know just my background. 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.600 I know my life now and I know my family parents, 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.760 and this is all just beautiful and amazing, but I'd 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:05.280 like to know the other half of me. 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:05.720 You know. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:10.040 I know Diane Downs is my biological mother, and that 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.080 is the half of me that I am not proud of, 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:16.160 and I would love to find the other half. So 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.720 when I was eighteen, I was able to order my 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:23.200 original birth certificate and that was the real answer that 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.560 was Oh, my gosh, it's actually true. There's no denying 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:30.520 it at that point because Diane Down's, well, Elizabeth Diane Downs, 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.800 was listed as my biological mother, but there was no 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:35.120 mention of a father. 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:38.400 And that's very common that there's just a big blank 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.920 for the father. Very common, you know, in all time 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:46.800 periods and in all places, really, And I agree with 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.040 what you're saying about the aspect of taking back control 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.560 in a sense in terms of what you can get 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.800 from documents, that varies from state to state, from country 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:01.040 to country. That varies a lot. But what doesn't vary 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.119 is the fact that whatever you might get from adoption 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:08.040 papers or from hearsay, from what somebody may be able 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.240 to tell you is simply something that is very difficult 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:15.720 to corroborate, in fact, impossible to corroborate without that DNA evidence. 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:20.200 Michelle's believe is that documents can sometimes have false information, 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.840 but DNA evidence is more or less irrefutable. 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.199 I always say that with this, while I want to 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.440 know everything that it's possible to know about the adoption 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:36.000 papers and the hearsay evidence, I always follow the DNA. 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:40.080 Always put the DNA first, and I don't let that 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:44.119 other evidence the documentary evidence or the hearsay evidence cloud 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:48.480 my judgment and lead to confirmation bias because that information 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.879 can always be wrong or falsely given. The DNA, however, 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:55.440 if followed correctly, will lead to the truth. And you'll 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.680 hear people say a lot things like DNA doesn't lie, 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.560 human beings do. And while that is very generally true, 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:07.000 it's also quite an overused and oversimplified saying, because a 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.880 DNA results on their own can be misinterpreted at times, 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.120 in that if you don't know what you're doing with them, 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.320 and you're trying to find an unknown father, you could 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.720 misinterpret the DNA matches and end up identifying the wrong 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.560 man or several wrong men. I've seen that happen before. 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.960 Tister is looking for answers that hit upon someone with 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.480 a similar name to one given in an adoption document, 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.040 or they perhaps message a match who says, oh, I 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:35.080 think it could be my dad's cousin, and people get 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:38.400 taken along in the wave of that, and when somebody 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:42.240 who understands the DNA looks at it properly realizes that 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.240 the DNA doesn't support that conclusion of it being that man. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.240 So it's a bit more complicated than simply saying DNA 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.520 will give you the truth. DNA doesn't lie. That is true, 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:54.320 but at the same time, it has to be worked 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.120 with correctly in order to get to the correct answer. 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.520 DNA is a very scientific way of going about a 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.719 very emotional process. There's no denying that your clients and 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.680 Becky here are absolutely going to be subjected to strong 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:13.680 emotions about this. And then also there's questions about when 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:19.080 you find Becky's father, what do we do with that information, 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.680 Because I've read different reports from Diane downs herself where 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.480 she has said the father knows he's the father, he's 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.800 a dear friend of mine, and so there's that and 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.399 the reports, and then Becky's heard other things. 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:37.000 Oh, there's so many stories circling around my biological father. 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.800 I've heard that he doesn't know that he's the father. 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:43.959 I've heard that he has fought for me when I 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.159 was born to keep custody. I heard that he was 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.320 a reporter during the case. I also heard that he 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.919 was worked at the mail office with Diane. And then 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.720 I also heard it was just some guy that was 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:01.199 a husband of her cellmate. I mean, there's just so 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.600 many stories. I would really love to just find that 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:05.480 one answer. 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.879 And there's also the possibility that he's aware of who 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.400 he is and simply doesn't have any desire to be involved. 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:15.600 That's something that I am worried about too, because I 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:19.879 have been so out there, you know, I've been open 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.679 about who I am, and if he had wanted to 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.359 contact me, I've been in the media for ten years now, 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:28.600 you know, So why hasn't he My fear is that 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.560 maybe he has passed away, or he doesn't want to 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:34.439 be found, or he just doesn't know. 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.320 It's a very tough thing to do, and you have 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.200 to go into it understanding that it's going to bring 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.879 up an awful lot of emotion. You have to have 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:47.040 a good support network on hand, and you might want 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.479 to even consider professional support, counseling and that kind of 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.960 thing to help through the process in terms of when 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.000 you get to that point, if you get to that point, 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:00.199 because not all cases are solvable, or at least not 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:04.720 all cases are immediately solvable. Some take weeks, some take months, 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.480 some take years, and depending on the ethnicity of the 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.920 man in question, sometime there are some cases that will 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.960 take years. Yet because if he's of an ethnicity, say 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.240 that there isn't a society that tends to DNA test. 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.040 Then that makes life a lot more difficult, because if 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:23.960 you don't have the matches to work with, you can't 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.720 identify the man on the end of it. But having 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.159 said all that, if you get to that point you 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.680 identify a person. First off, you might have a number 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.639 of candidates. You know, the DNA might be pointing to 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.680 a particular family, say, but there might be three brothers, 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.160 or you might only be able to say, well, it's 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.160 one of these brothers, or it's one of their first cousins, 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.960 it's one of these five men, for instance. And the 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:49.800 only way to get to the bottom of which one 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:53.679 of the five is is target testing. On those lines, 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.360 anyone who DNA tests, they can find shops and surprises. 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:02.000 They can find some close ancestors aren't who they believe 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.719 them to be, so for instance, finding out your father's 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.960 not your father, or your grandfather wasn't your grandfather. These 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.320 things can happen. Also, they might find that they have 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.960 close relatives they didn't know existed, like say Becky testing 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:17.600 and showing up on somebody's list. She could be a 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.240 close relative, a half sibling, a first cousin they never 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:24.600 knew existed. So in terms of contacting people, in most 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.000 cases you're going to have several candidates and you might 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:30.639 have to narrow things down to the right one. But 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:33.200 if you do know exactly who it is, then there 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:36.840 are a number of prevailing ideas on who should make 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:43.240 the contact and how that contact should be made. 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.520 It's clear that for Becky this whole process is going 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:52.520