1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,080 Speaker 1: Coming up on you need therapy. 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 2: I can think of specifically working with a couple clients 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: that are part of different religious cultures that are very, 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 2: very strong and important in a big part of their identity, 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: and I'm coming from a place of creating a space 6 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 2: for them to be safe and process and feel their 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: feels and also share and organized thoughts and connect with 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 2: me about it. I want to make sure that I 9 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 2: am meeting them. 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: probably because it's uncomfortable to know. 14 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 2: If you can die before you die, then you can 15 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 2: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: what to do because there was no internet. 18 00:00:59,000 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: I don't know. 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all, 20 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a 21 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,559 Speaker 1: licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into 22 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious 23 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you. 24 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys, and welcome to 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: a new episode of You Need Therapy podcast. My name 26 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: is kat I am the host. And quick reminder before 27 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: we get into today's episode that although this podcast is 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: called You Need Therapy, and you actually have two therapists 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: here with you today, it does not serve as a 30 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: replacement or a substitute for any actual mental health services. 31 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: We have Stacy here. 32 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: Hello. 33 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: She has been on a couple times before and she 34 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: is one of the therapists at Through Courts Therapy. So 35 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: Stacy is here today to do one of the this 36 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: is for the Therapist episodes. And I'm actually kind of combining 37 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: a Couch Talks vibes with a this is for the 38 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: Therapist because I got a really good email from a 39 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: listener asking a question that has to do with being 40 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: a therapist. And if you don't know what the this 41 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: is for the Therapists series is, it is kind of 42 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: an ongoing whenever it pops up series that I just 43 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: started that talks about things specific to being a therapist. However, 44 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: no matter if you're a therapist or not, a lot 45 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: of these themes are going to be things that come 46 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: up in everyday life, including this one. So what I'm 47 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: gonna do is read the email and then we're going 48 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: to chat about it. Hey, Kat, One of the things 49 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: that I had thought about before but stuck out to 50 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: me in my underground was this, as a therapist, it 51 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: is not your client's job to educate you. This was 52 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: in context of racial things, sexuality, war vets, et cetera. Okay, great, 53 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: I connect and agree with the concept. My question is 54 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: how do I educate myself? Do you have any RECs 55 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: for books, podcasts, online classes, or anything else that would 56 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: be helpful to educate this middle class, naive, single white 57 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: girl on any of the above topics or others. Ultimately, 58 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: I also agree with the concept of you can't relate 59 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: to everyone's experience, but you can relate to someone's humanity. 60 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: So having a deep knowledge of every topic may not 61 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: be required. However, I still want to do what I 62 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: can to educate myself on these topics I know nothing about. 63 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: Please send help, thanks in advance. So I love this question, 64 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: and I love this topic because I think one in 65 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,839 Speaker 1: my experience that is glossed over and then almost people 66 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: are afraid to ask follow up questions on and so 67 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: I brought stacy because she has a unique experience that's 68 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: different from mine around this because I'm white, she's black. 69 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: She has had all white therapists except recently, and she 70 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: also is a therapist that sees people of all colors. 71 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna throw this to her to kind of 72 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: give her experience, and then we're just going to talk 73 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: about it. So what came up for you when you 74 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: hear this kind of topic come up? 75 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 2: I immediately think of consideration, and I think that it's 76 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: wonderful that she is even considering. How can I show 77 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: up being different and caring and considering. So I think 78 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: to address what she's saying, No, we can't know everyone's 79 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: experiences to great levels, And I think we need to 80 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: check motivation. 81 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: Oh what do you mean by that? 82 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: Like why why am I asking for this information or 83 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: why am I seeking this out? Is it to care 84 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 2: for you? Is it to create connection and community? And 85 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: overall I think the theme of this is how can 86 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: I be considered? 87 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, And to play the other side of that, Sometimes 88 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: we're asking this question to appear intelligent or smart or 89 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: all knowing or not mess up. Versus I'm asking this 90 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: question because I want to consider the people that I'm 91 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: working with, Yeah, and I want them to feel like 92 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: I care for them, not that I know everything about them, 93 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: but I care for and about them. 94 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: And I think that applies with any client, whether you 95 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 2: are both female, whether you are the same race. You 96 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: don't know any and everything about a person, and it's 97 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: our job to be curious. And I think the most 98 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 2: important part of that is checking our motivation, because when 99 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: that is in a place of care and considering this 100 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: other person's humanity, then we are given that off. We 101 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 2: are asking in ways or even prefacing the questions or 102 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 2: curiosities in a way where the other person knows I'm 103 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 2: here and I'm asking these questions to consider you, not 104 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 2: I'm leaning on you and not doing my own work 105 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 2: or research or yeah, like I'm lazy, or this isn't 106 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: really going to affect me as much. 107 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: Can you give a little bit of a background on 108 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: your experience of what that has felt for you as 109 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: a client or as a human being. 110 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 2: Even in my experience, this is a new consideration for me. 111 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: I think generally speaking, it's not been my experience that 112 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: majority of black people in my communities have even largely 113 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: gone to therapy. So I'm thinking about my therapy journey, 114 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 2: which my first experience was grief counseling as an undergraduate 115 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: student at Belmont with missus Georgia Alexander, who happened to 116 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: be black, and she was assigned to me, and that 117 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 2: was life changing. That experience made me know that I 118 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 2: wanted to continue therapy the rest of my life. And 119 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 2: after exiting college looking for a therapist, it never occurred 120 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 2: to me that I had another option than who was available, 121 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 2: which were typically just white men and women. And I 122 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 2: had a recent experience at therapists training actually where in 123 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: two separate instances over the course of the four day training. 124 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: On day one, actually I was approached by Pierre, who 125 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 2: was a white male, and he prefaced this in the warmest, 126 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: most sincere way of how do you feel being here? 127 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: And we were both silent, and I'm looking at him 128 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: thinking about how I'd like to answer this. I was 129 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: clear on what he meant, and then he said, you 130 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: know what I mean by that? 131 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: And I said, yes, what did you think he meant 132 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: by that? 133 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: He meant being the only person of color and you 134 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: knew that, yeah, And he ended up explaining that explicitly, 135 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 2: saying it I was one person of color out of 136 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: twenty therapists and a guide, and that was so touching 137 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: because I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before. 138 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: And probably day three, we were on break getting coffee 139 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: and teas and such, and there were two ladies that 140 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: were part of the training who asked me, did they 141 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: prepare you that you'd be the only person of color 142 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: before you arrived at the program? And once again I 143 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: was kind of taken aback of, like no. And also 144 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: it made me sad of like, why didn't I consider that? 145 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: And these people. 146 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: Were They just cared, They were really considerate, like what's 147 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 2: your experience? 148 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: How is this going? 149 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: Just that general consideration and curiosity that I feel like 150 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 2: this therapist that's writing into you is coming from. And 151 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: I think those are the important motivations to create that connection, 152 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: to share that consideration and find out more about people's 153 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: experience for a reason that is caring and seek out 154 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 2: connection and connecting humanity. 155 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: And she mentioned that I'm curious when those people were 156 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 1: asking those questions, was there like a light bulb of wait, 157 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: I don't even think about this. 158 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, it gave me a lot of pause, and 159 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: I think That's where I realized, Oh, this is actually 160 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: kind of sad that I didn't have this consideration for 161 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: myself because this is kind of unprecedented. I've shown it 162 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: to a lot of organized events where I'm the only 163 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: person of color, and I've never received that question, that consideration, 164 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 2: any additional curiosities, even if people thought it. Like you 165 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 2: mentioned at the beginning, it's kind of something that people 166 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 2: stay away from, stray away from. It also shifted my 167 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 2: perception during the rest of the training of how I 168 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: don't want to use hard, but maybe it is how 169 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: much energy I'm using to be a part of a 170 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 2: largely white community and needing to research things or no 171 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 2: things to be able to just. 172 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: Participate and understand certain things. Yeah, but nobody's doing that 173 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: for you, no, because you're the minority in that greer. 174 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I just hadn't thought of it like that 175 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: until they were posing the questions, and I was like, wow, 176 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 2: I remember feeling such a release, in such a relief 177 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 2: of like, Ooh, I really don't need to try that hard. 178 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: I didn't realize like how active I am on the 179 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 2: inside of like overthinking before responding. 180 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: Or so you can just almost like blend in yes. 181 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 2: And obviously we know I'm not blending. 182 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, I guess it's it interesting for 183 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 1: you saying like, oh this is this is a new thing. 184 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: Nobody's asking these questions, so I haven't thought much about it. 185 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: With that experience in mind, are there times whether let's 186 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: stay on like I guess the therapy mental health track, 187 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,479 Speaker 1: and have there been times looking back with like hindsight 188 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: of oh, really would have been nice if my therapists 189 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: would have done this, or I didn't recognize how hard 190 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: it was to almost over explain things to my therapist, 191 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: or be wondering if she really understands what you're saying. 192 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: Have there been times looking back with hindsight of oh, 193 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: really would have been nice if my therapists would have 194 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: done this, or I didn't recognize how hard it was 195 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: to almost over explain things to my therapist, or be 196 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: wondering if she really understands what you're saying. 197 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: I often try to think how do I do that 198 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,839 Speaker 2: in the room because I can think of specifically working 199 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: with a couple clients that are part of different religious 200 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: cultures that are very very strong and important in a 201 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 2: big part of their identity, and I am just really 202 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: mindful about saying, what is this like under that lens 203 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: or in. 204 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: This aspect, because assuming. 205 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm coming from a place of creating a 206 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 2: space for them to be safe and process and feel 207 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: their feels and also share and organized thoughts and connect 208 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 2: with me about it, I want to actually make the connection. 209 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: So I want to meet them. 210 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: And I have it's a weird thing in the middle 211 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: of us that way, Yeah, Okay. 212 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 2: I want to make sure that I am meeting them, 213 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: and I feel like I do that by making it known, 214 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 2: like this is actually really important to how you view 215 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: the world and how you see yourself in the world. 216 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: So I want to help share that with you if 217 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 2: I can, or I want to meet you there and 218 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 2: have you helped me understand. And it usually goes overwheled 219 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 2: because it's coming from a place of. 220 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: Caring well, And this is where I think this topic 221 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: gets a little difficult, and I think why a lot 222 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: of people do stray away from it, because You're right, 223 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 1: people just decide not to talk about it because they 224 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: don't want to hurt somebody's feelings or give the wrong impression, or. 225 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 2: They don't want to be uncomfort they don't want. 226 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: To just all avoiding all kinds of discomfort. And I 227 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: want to hear what you think about this, because I 228 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: could be wrong in this thinking. My thought process is 229 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: as a helper, I mean honestly, as a human being 230 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: that lives in a world that isn't just people that 231 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: look like me. But as a helper specifically because my 232 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: job is to help people understand themselves and work on things. 233 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: I do have a responsibility to research and understand and 234 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: look outside of my own culture, my belief system, my 235 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: own sexuality, all that stuff, and not everybody is the same. 236 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: So not every white person's to say, not black person's 237 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: the same, not every gay person's the same, not every Christian, 238 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: not every person of Jewish person, not everybody is the same. 239 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: So if I research and read a book on this culture, 240 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: it is also unfair to me to assume that I 241 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: really can understand somebody from reading this book about something 242 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: that they connect with. So there is in my experience 243 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: this is not so black and white. It is. It 244 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: is my job to do my best, and it is 245 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: the individual's job to help me fill in the gaps 246 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: because I can't know them better than they know themselves. 247 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want somebody to assume that I'm the same 248 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: because I'm white and so that I must be this way. 249 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think as the helper, I think it's important 250 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 2: to communicate that I am interested and I don't know. 251 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: Oh, I like that I'm interested and I don't know. 252 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: And even when when they teach me things that i'm 253 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 2: learning something, I do take extra initiative and I'll be like, 254 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to look that up, and I will, but 255 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: that it has come from them, it's something that they 256 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: care about. And again, I keep coming back to consideration 257 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: and caring because the point is in this space, I 258 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: want you to feel known and seen. I want to 259 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: see you. 260 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: I want to meet you the best that I can. Yeah. 261 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: Yes, And I'm doing that by being interested in receiving 262 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: what you're giving me that you care about and things 263 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: that are important to your identity and like you're saying, 264 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: not this larger community of maybe religion or sexuality or 265 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: race or whatever. So definitely I'm leaning on the client 266 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: in a way of yeah, tell me about you. I'm interested, 267 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 2: tell me about what you want me to know about you, 268 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 2: or what. 269 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: Came up for me as I was listening to you, 270 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: is what would it look like if we never assumed 271 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: things about our clients based on what they present with 272 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: on the outside. And that's not just what they look like, 273 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: but it could be like their religion or something like that, 274 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: what the state that they grew up with and stuff 275 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: like that. What would it look like if I was 276 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: interested and I also didn't assume, and so I asked 277 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: questions like what is important for me to know? What 278 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: is it important for me to know more about? And 279 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: where can I go do this on my own? And 280 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: where do you you need to meet me in the 281 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: middle having that be a two way street, because I 282 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: think the dynamic of therapy is weird in general, where 283 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: people come in and they think that the therapist is 284 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: like all knowing, is going to do some like vodoo 285 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: magic trick and like heal you. And then also therapists 286 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: were taught that we can't do work for our clients, 287 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: and so I think a lot of therapists can take 288 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: that too far where this is crazy. I don't know 289 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: if I've told you this, but at a place I 290 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: worked with, there is a therapist that there could be 291 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: a world in which this worked. It just would not 292 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: work for me as a therapist. If their client didn't 293 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: bring something to talk about, he would pull a book 294 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: off the shelf and just start reading in the session. 295 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: What it is that not cuckoo karasha? Where I was like, 296 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: first of all, that amn being more uncomfortable than just 297 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: giving staring at somebody blankly with eye contact like that 298 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: to me sends a message. And that's why it depends 299 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: on who you're working with. You got a really like 300 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: therapy is an art form where that could work for 301 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: a certain client and a certain therapist, But me that 302 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: would just be like what is she doing? And like 303 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: this is not a natural life, and there's a different 304 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: way for me to communicate, like, hey, it feels like 305 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: you come into sessions every week wanting me to do 306 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: a trick and I can't help you unless you bring 307 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: things to the room versus oh you know, I'm just 308 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: gonna read your book. Yes, it is crazy, So I 309 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: share that to say like there is a balance between 310 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: that where we are not the all knowing people with 311 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: anything with mental health, with people's culture, with understanding somebody's 312 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: personality or anything. We are experts in helping people become 313 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: experts of their own lives. Yes, is the best way 314 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: I can put it empathetic. 315 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 2: Other we listen, offer feedback, help you organize thoughts, behavior patterns, but. 316 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: We don't tell you who you are. 317 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: Oh no, and that again is the relationship. Yeah, I 318 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 2: am interested and I don't know. Would you tell me? 319 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: What do you think? Is the reason therapists have a 320 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: hard time saying what you just said? 321 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: It might be what you just described of this weird 322 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 2: expectation that I'm coming in and this person is all 323 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: knowing or yes, I have information and training and education 324 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 2: and practice, and that is different. It's not in competition 325 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 2: with what the client's expertise is. 326 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: I don't know if this fits for you, but looking 327 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 1: back on who I was as a younger therapist and 328 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: a younger human, it was way harder for me to 329 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: admit than not knowing. So me saying like I don't 330 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: know would be me admitting that I'm bad at my job, 331 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: or you're gonna think I'm stupid, or I lost the 332 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: authority that I have in the room versus now, when 333 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: I admit I don't know, a lot of times it 334 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: feels freeing like that I don't know because that's just 335 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: part of being a human being, and like doesn't mean 336 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: I have to stay there. Yeah, but that doesn't feel 337 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: as damaging to my reputation or my ego. 338 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: I guess that has to largely come from ego. 339 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 340 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 2: Anyway, I was thinking about what might be different about 341 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: my experience that allows me to practice that a lot. 342 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: And I actually think two things. A being a black therapist, 343 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: I began already seeing. 344 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 1: People not of color. 345 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and because I started off largely seeing adolescents. If 346 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: you think about that dynamic, it's typically a parent saying, hey, 347 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: I've got this kid. These are the things that are 348 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 2: going on. Please see my kid, these are their issues. 349 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: I'm automatically needing to come to this kid of like curiosity, 350 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 2: what's actually happening? How are you? Who are you? 351 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: What do you care about? 352 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 2: And I'm just thinking about both of those. Aspects of 353 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 2: how I started in the work were very much I 354 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: don't know, tell me yes those questions. 355 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is no. 356 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: Room really egoically to be making assumptions like I did 357 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: know you could. 358 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: Do that, but you'd be a pretty about. 359 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I guess I could. But that actually that 360 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: did caument a lot of practice. 361 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: In it's very natural for you to do that where 362 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: you know what speaking to like just the racial part 363 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: of that. It's not natural for white people to do that, 364 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: just how you were talking about with that story at 365 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: your training, It's not natural for us to have to 366 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,239 Speaker 1: ask those questions because we're usually around people that we 367 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: have more space to assume we know the answer. 368 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. And all three of those people said a version 369 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 2: of that and made it a point to say, like, 370 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: I would like to be more considerate about that in 371 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: spaces today. Yeah, also kind of acknowledging this is a 372 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 2: new thing for all of us, this practice, this consideration, 373 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 2: this I'm going to be bold to have this conversation 374 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 2: or ask these questions. And so I think to the 375 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: person the listener that wrote in, good for you, because 376 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: I think that only creates more connection, that that makes 377 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: you a better therapist asking questions that might or might 378 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: not be discomforting. Actually, each of those people that brought 379 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 2: that up created more of a connection that I actually 380 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 2: felt more safe, Like I said, I felt more relieved. 381 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: I felt less energy intension of like needing to be 382 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 2: do or we'll show up as a different person. 383 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: You didn't have to do this, and you took the 384 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: energy and the time to do it, and that is 385 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: more meaningful than the information that you have in your 386 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: brain at about anything. Yeah, you just attempting, whether it 387 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: to get to know me face a face or to 388 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: do this research on your own. Like that goes a 389 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: long way. And so I would say, and if you disagree, 390 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm open. I would say for anybody who is having 391 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: fears or insecurities or just uncomfy feelings about approaching this 392 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: and not knowing what is right or wrong one every 393 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: client to individual, So what worked for one client might 394 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: not be what another client needs. But if you're coming 395 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: from a place of consideration and care, it is worth 396 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: stepping into that discomfort. Now the client might be like, 397 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: wait what, because, like you said, nobody is I've ever 398 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: heard this? Yes, and like what, I have almost trained 399 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: my brain to not think about this thing that you're 400 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: bringing up, So wait what? But then after that, when 401 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: you sat in it, you're like, WHOA, that was maybe 402 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: one of the kindest thing that's happened to me in 403 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: a long time. 404 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 2: Yes, and I came to you saying that that made 405 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: such an impact. 406 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was one of the highlights of that training. 407 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 408 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm trying to say, and too many 409 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: words is it's not as important how much information you 410 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: can retain and you knowing everything, it's that you are 411 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: even putting the effort into it. And we can get 412 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: really caught up on the information versus the intent. 413 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 2: Yes, because whatever you think you might know may not 414 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 2: apply to this person or they may not value that. 415 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 2: And so once again, you don't know. 416 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: So I'm going to go back to this original thing 417 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: as we kind of wrap this up. Is the quote 418 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: that was brought up in the beginning that I think 419 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: most of us that go through programs for therapy hear this. 420 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: As a therapist, it's not your client's job to educate you, 421 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: period new sentence. You do need your clients to help 422 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: them educate you about themselves. Yes, so they are not 423 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: our teachers on what it's like to be a black 424 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: person in the grand scheme of things, about what Christianity 425 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: is and about what the rules of that religion, we 426 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 1: need them. There's no way I can do all this 427 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: research to understand what that experience has been like for you. 428 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would encourage therapists to not let that idea, 429 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 2: because you're right, we are taught that. And I thought 430 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: a lot about that doing practicum. 431 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: And almost we overthink it. 432 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 2: I did, especially my very first Muslim client. I wanted 433 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: so badly not to offend them by asking questions, and 434 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: I think that was a disservice in the beginning. Fortunately, 435 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 2: our relationship carried forward and I got comfortable asking, like, 436 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 2: teach me this or I'll look this up because I 437 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 2: want to know you and again what this means for you, 438 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: and what this means for what you're bringing into session, 439 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 2: and what lends this is for your relationships and all 440 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 2: of that. So I would like to encourage therapists to 441 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: not let that limit how you are going to be curious, Yeah, 442 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: and getting to know your client. 443 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: So they asked for books, podcasts, online classes, all of 444 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: that recommendations. Do you have any Rex, Yes, I think 445 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: this is a hard question to answer. This is because 446 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: to educate on. 447 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 2: What like, I have the perfect book to start. Okay, 448 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: it's called The Person You Mean to Be. 449 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: So of this book The Person you Mean to Be? 450 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: Yes, I actually read it during It had to have 451 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 2: been a cultural diversity class in graduate school. It is 452 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 2: based on just helping people to see their biases. 453 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: And be a human. Oh I love that. Okay, it's 454 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: such a good book, adding to my cart right now. 455 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: I've said this before on the podcast, but I think 456 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: one of the biggest disappointments I have looking back on 457 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: my education part of becoming a therapist is my diversity 458 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: class because it was like we were all kind of 459 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: faking it. 460 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: That was actually the hardest class during school. It created 461 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 2: so much division because it was just heart. 462 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: I feel like our class didn't create the vision because 463 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: nobody was being honest. It almost just was like, yeah, 464 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: that sure, totally. And then but we didn't really think 465 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: about things, so like I didn't feel that I can 466 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: want to speak for myself. I didn't feel challenged and 467 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: allow myself to be as challenged. And maybe it's because 468 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: that space didn't feel safe enough. I don't know, but 469 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: I wish I could redo that class, if I could 470 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: redo one class. What year was this, probably twenty fourteen. 471 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: The climate was at we weren't as open as an 472 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: even just either. 473 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 2: This is probably like twenty nineteen, twenty twenty. 474 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: And it was rough, Oh my gosh. 475 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 2: And what was the really aggressive book microaggressions? 476 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 1: It was just hard. 477 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 2: It was very hard for why and black people to 478 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: do that together. 479 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,719 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, doing that in twenty twenty. 480 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 2: Bringing it back to what we are talking about. These 481 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,719 Speaker 2: things are new for our culture as a whole, and 482 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 2: I think that is another reason why where we're looking 483 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 2: at who's responsibility is it for what it's a relationship. 484 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 2: It's both people's responsibility. 485 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: Oh. I love that you said that. We are always 486 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: as human beings looking for where to lay responsibility or blame. 487 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: And it's shared most of the time. Yeah, that is 488 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: going to be a shared anytime you're in relationship, it's shared. Yeah. 489 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: I think that is helpful to hear. 490 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 2: And hopefully that's what therapists are walking away with here. 491 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 2: Of doesn't mean it's always equal, but it's always shared. Yeah, 492 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: we're sharing it and being curious and being considerate typically 493 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: goes well. Yeah, so have some confidence in that it does. 494 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: Typically go okay. Well, thank you for having this conversation. 495 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: If you have any questions, feedback, comments, anything for the 496 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: podcast in general or for Stacy in general, you can 497 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: send those to Katherine at Unique Therapy podcast dot com. 498 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: You can follow us at you Need Therapy and at 499 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: three Quarts Therapy on Instagram. And I hope you guys 500 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: have the day you need to have and I will 501 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: be back with you on Wednesday for couch talks. Bye.