WEBVTT - Behind the Scenes with Andrew Jarecki 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.396 Pushkin. Hello, Hello revisionist history listeners. As many of you 0:00:23.436 --> 0:00:25.996 will know, we did a seven part series last fall 0:00:26.116 --> 0:00:28.836 called The Alabama Murders, the story of the death of 0:00:28.836 --> 0:00:31.996 a preacher's wife in the shoals in northwestern Alabama thirty 0:00:32.036 --> 0:00:35.356 five years ago and the tragic reverberations of that case. 0:00:35.956 --> 0:00:38.196 I honestly think it's one of the best things we've 0:00:38.196 --> 0:00:41.876 ever done on revisionist history. And almost the exact time 0:00:41.956 --> 0:00:46.556 that our series dropped, HBO aired a brilliant documentary called 0:00:46.916 --> 0:00:51.036 The Alabama Solution. The Revisionist History series was about the 0:00:51.036 --> 0:00:54.556 death penalty in Alabama. The Alabama Solution was about the 0:00:54.596 --> 0:00:56.116 prison system in Alabama. 0:00:57.556 --> 0:00:59.956 We had record numbers of people leaving out of here 0:01:00.036 --> 0:01:02.356 body bays. They don't want to put a biet what's 0:01:02.396 --> 0:01:03.116 really going on? 0:01:03.116 --> 0:01:05.596 Only at that How can a journalists go into a 0:01:05.676 --> 0:01:07.996 war zone but can't go into a prison In the 0:01:08.116 --> 0:01:08.676 United States? 0:01:10.276 --> 0:01:11.596 The state is settling one. 0:01:11.516 --> 0:01:14.756 Lawsuit after another. There's no consequences for their actions. 0:01:15.196 --> 0:01:18.196 There's an argument that there is some systemic problem within 0:01:18.276 --> 0:01:20.636 all of our facilities, and I, whileheartedly. 0:01:20.116 --> 0:01:28.476 Disagree with that, the two projects fit together almost perfectly. 0:01:28.876 --> 0:01:31.916 So I called up the director of the documentary Andrew 0:01:31.996 --> 0:01:34.436 Jireki and said, do you want to sit down for 0:01:34.476 --> 0:01:37.556 a conversation and he said yes, and so we got 0:01:37.556 --> 0:01:40.716 together at on AirFest in Brooklyn for a long talk 0:01:40.716 --> 0:01:44.116 about Alabama and filmmaking and all kinds of other things. 0:01:44.956 --> 0:01:47.796 If the name Andrew Jireki seems familiar to you, it's 0:01:47.836 --> 0:01:51.116 because he's one of the pre eminent documentarians of our time. 0:01:51.396 --> 0:01:55.836 He did Capturing the Freedman's The Jinks. A brilliant, brilliant guy. 0:01:56.476 --> 0:02:02.916 Here's a conversation, Andrew, Welcome to Brooklyn. Thank you, thank 0:02:02.956 --> 0:02:07.316 you for doing this. The reason you and I are 0:02:07.316 --> 0:02:13.196 on stage is that in the fall, we released a 0:02:13.236 --> 0:02:16.316 seven part series on Revision's History called The Alabama Murders, 0:02:16.476 --> 0:02:19.196 and almost at exactly the same time, you released a 0:02:19.196 --> 0:02:23.396 documentary on HBO called The Alabama Solution. Our series was 0:02:23.436 --> 0:02:27.036 about a capital punishment case. Your series was about the 0:02:27.076 --> 0:02:30.996 Alabama prison system. And it was this marvelous instance of 0:02:31.756 --> 0:02:36.476 two works that overlapped but didn't overlap. And I texted 0:02:36.516 --> 0:02:39.316 you and said we should have a conversation, and here 0:02:39.316 --> 0:02:44.596 we are, and I found your documentary extraordinary, and I 0:02:45.316 --> 0:02:48.116 was just telling you backstage, I'm not someone who listens 0:02:48.156 --> 0:02:52.396 to watches love documentaries. But I have seen all of yours, 0:02:53.436 --> 0:02:57.196 Captain of Freedman's JINX. This is the best in my mind. 0:02:57.436 --> 0:02:57.796 Thank you. 0:02:57.916 --> 0:03:00.116 And I was curious, I would like you to start 0:03:00.996 --> 0:03:03.076 tell us how you came to do a story about 0:03:03.116 --> 0:03:05.996 the Alabama prison system, because I suspect it's not a 0:03:06.036 --> 0:03:07.676 straight line. You didn't sit down one day and say 0:03:07.676 --> 0:03:09.636 I want to do a story about the Alabama the system. 0:03:10.676 --> 0:03:15.116 Yeah. I think nothing's a straight line, certainly for me. 0:03:15.516 --> 0:03:20.516 And I was noticing also your podcast around that same 0:03:20.556 --> 0:03:23.196 time and then and I was sort of I was 0:03:23.276 --> 0:03:25.756 kind of holding back because I thought, is this going 0:03:25.796 --> 0:03:29.236 to influence what we're working on? You know, just because 0:03:29.236 --> 0:03:30.996 it's hard, like when you're making one thing and then 0:03:31.036 --> 0:03:33.196 somebody else does something else, and especially if it's a 0:03:33.196 --> 0:03:36.596 smart person, You're like, what if they do this better? 0:03:36.676 --> 0:03:38.116 Or what do they have an idea? And then I'm 0:03:38.196 --> 0:03:40.356 drawn to that idea or something like that. But I 0:03:40.436 --> 0:03:43.236 did get to listen to it, and it's it's really 0:03:43.396 --> 0:03:47.116 superb and and and and extremely familiar to me. So 0:03:47.676 --> 0:03:50.916 I you know, when I was making Capturing the Freedman's 0:03:51.116 --> 0:03:55.236 I had reason to go into Dana Mora correctional facility 0:03:55.236 --> 0:03:57.996 in Upstate New York, and I found that the visit 0:03:58.316 --> 0:04:03.276 was so punishing, just as a visitor, everything about it 0:04:03.396 --> 0:04:08.956 was so difficult and brutal. And then when I saw 0:04:10.036 --> 0:04:12.796 the waiting room and I saw how people were being 0:04:12.836 --> 0:04:15.116 treated there, I just thought, I think I need to 0:04:15.156 --> 0:04:17.596 get deeper into this prison. And I wasn't able to 0:04:17.596 --> 0:04:19.476 do that. But then over the years, I just visited 0:04:19.516 --> 0:04:23.036 a lot of prisons and I was really amazed at 0:04:23.036 --> 0:04:28.756 how poorly we do this. But I never really understood 0:04:28.756 --> 0:04:31.636 the Alabama system because it's so secretive. I mean, I 0:04:31.636 --> 0:04:33.956 would say all prisons in the US are sort of 0:04:33.996 --> 0:04:37.156 treated like black sites. And you know, you drive down 0:04:37.196 --> 0:04:39.756 the highway and you see a little metal sign that 0:04:39.796 --> 0:04:44.036 says XYZ correctional facility in Upstate New York or someplace, 0:04:44.556 --> 0:04:47.196 and you think, well, I probably don't need to drive 0:04:47.276 --> 0:04:51.036 down there. If anything really bad's happening, you know, somebody 0:04:51.036 --> 0:04:54.796 will tell me about it. But that presupposes that you 0:04:55.396 --> 0:04:57.396 will be able to read it in a paper, you 0:04:57.436 --> 0:05:00.396 will be able to see a television show that explains it. 0:05:00.436 --> 0:05:03.156 And that's not the case because the press is really 0:05:03.196 --> 0:05:04.716 not allowed to visit prisons. 0:05:04.836 --> 0:05:08.116 There's a great line from one of your one of 0:05:08.156 --> 0:05:10.836 your character is in your documentary, one of the prisoners 0:05:10.836 --> 0:05:14.036 who says, isn't it crazy that if you're a journalist, 0:05:14.076 --> 0:05:16.676 you can go to a war zone, but you can't 0:05:16.716 --> 0:05:18.476 go to a prison in your own country? 0:05:18.596 --> 0:05:22.636 Yeah? Yeah, yeah, you can visit a war zone and 0:05:22.676 --> 0:05:24.356 you can't go to a prison in the United States 0:05:24.356 --> 0:05:29.836 of America. And so I was always curious and then 0:05:31.636 --> 0:05:33.836 didn't think I would ever get a chance to do it. 0:05:34.076 --> 0:05:37.236 And then oddly, my daughter, who was like fourteen, she 0:05:37.276 --> 0:05:39.836 went to Dalton, and at Dalton they had a really 0:05:39.876 --> 0:05:42.716 good speaker program and they had brought in a guy 0:05:42.756 --> 0:05:46.636 named Anthony ray Hinton who had been wrongfully convicted in 0:05:46.876 --> 0:05:49.716 Alabama and had been in this prison system for like 0:05:49.756 --> 0:05:52.636 thirty years. And she said, you know, I think you 0:05:52.636 --> 0:05:55.036 should read this book with me because I think, you know, 0:05:55.076 --> 0:05:57.076 you're interested in this stuff. And then we read the 0:05:57.076 --> 0:06:00.276 book together and we just sort of spontaneously decided to 0:06:00.316 --> 0:06:03.076 take a road trip to Montgomery. We went to Montgomery, 0:06:03.076 --> 0:06:08.236 we didn't know anybody. We almost accidentally met a man 0:06:08.276 --> 0:06:10.356 who is almost eighty years old who was the first 0:06:10.356 --> 0:06:13.796 black prison chaplain in the state of Alabama, appointed by 0:06:13.876 --> 0:06:18.436 George Wallace. I think he was like George Wallace's one 0:06:18.516 --> 0:06:24.196 black friend, because he had to have one. And so 0:06:25.476 --> 0:06:27.356 I asked him to have dinner with us. So we 0:06:27.396 --> 0:06:30.396 sat and had dinner, and I started asking him questions 0:06:30.396 --> 0:06:33.796 and he was kind of reluctant to tell me too much. 0:06:33.876 --> 0:06:35.556 But I could also tell he had a lot of 0:06:35.596 --> 0:06:37.836 pain because he goes into these prisons all the time, 0:06:37.916 --> 0:06:40.356 so he knows what's happening in the prisons. But he's 0:06:40.396 --> 0:06:43.716 afraid that if he tells me too much, then I'm 0:06:43.756 --> 0:06:46.356 going to get too nosy and then maybe he's going 0:06:46.396 --> 0:06:48.596 to get kicked out of the prisons because we start 0:06:48.956 --> 0:06:50.436 so but I could tell he didn't want to let 0:06:50.476 --> 0:06:55.036 me leave either, and so we had this little standoff 0:06:55.076 --> 0:06:58.236 for a while where I was asking questions and he said, well, 0:06:58.236 --> 0:07:00.036 why don't you just, you know, come back and you 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:02.796 can see for yourself. And I said, well, I'm a filmmaker. 0:07:02.796 --> 0:07:05.236 They're not going to let me into the Alabama prison system. 0:07:05.556 --> 0:07:07.196 And he said, well, just come in without a camera, 0:07:07.276 --> 0:07:09.956 just come in and volunteer and we'll give about hygiene 0:07:09.996 --> 0:07:14.836 packages and food. And so I said, or maybe I'm 0:07:14.836 --> 0:07:17.076 going to do that. Well, if I do come back, 0:07:17.116 --> 0:07:19.076 what will I see? And I could tell that he 0:07:19.156 --> 0:07:22.036 was sort of thinking about whether he wanted to say 0:07:22.116 --> 0:07:23.516 this thing that he was going to say to me, 0:07:23.836 --> 0:07:25.356 because he knew if he said the right thing, I 0:07:25.356 --> 0:07:27.236 would come back, and if he didn't, maybe I wouldn't. 0:07:27.916 --> 0:07:31.716 And he said, if you come back, I'll take you 0:07:32.596 --> 0:07:35.556 on the death row at Holman Prison and you'll see 0:07:35.556 --> 0:07:41.996 it's a slave ship. And that was a very important 0:07:42.196 --> 0:07:44.116 kind of moment for me. That was seven years ago, 0:07:44.316 --> 0:07:46.836 and I think it's the reason that line was the 0:07:46.876 --> 0:07:49.516 reason I went back, because I just thought, well, whatever 0:07:49.556 --> 0:07:52.076 this is, I have to see. And then I went back. 0:07:52.716 --> 0:07:55.036 And you'll see in the film we sort of get 0:07:55.076 --> 0:07:58.596 access until we don't. But in the course of going 0:07:58.596 --> 0:08:01.236 into Easterling Prison, we start hearing from these men who 0:08:01.236 --> 0:08:05.036 are saying, look this visit you're making here, I'm not 0:08:05.076 --> 0:08:07.556 supposed to be talking to you, but this is a 0:08:07.596 --> 0:08:11.316 curated visit, rightwing. You just what they want you to see. 0:08:11.676 --> 0:08:14.716 But see that building over there, that's where they do 0:08:14.796 --> 0:08:16.916 solitary confinement. There are men that men that have been 0:08:16.956 --> 0:08:19.196 in there for five years or seven years at a time, 0:08:19.636 --> 0:08:22.516 seeing nobody, and see that building over there is the 0:08:22.556 --> 0:08:26.676 wide dorm. That's the behavior modification dorm, and somebody was 0:08:26.716 --> 0:08:30.116 just killed there by guard and we just started to 0:08:30.156 --> 0:08:33.756 understand how bad it was. And then last thing that 0:08:33.836 --> 0:08:36.316 happened is, you know, we get kicked out, and then 0:08:36.876 --> 0:08:38.556 we thought we didn't know how we're going to tell 0:08:38.556 --> 0:08:40.796 the story until we discovered that there was this network 0:08:40.836 --> 0:08:45.916 of people inside who had contraband cell phones and had 0:08:45.956 --> 0:08:48.916 access to a charger, were borrowing a charger from a 0:08:49.036 --> 0:08:50.996 friend and would have to put the cell phones up 0:08:50.996 --> 0:08:53.516 when the guards came. But it was our only window 0:08:53.556 --> 0:08:55.076 into this very secretive system. 0:08:55.556 --> 0:08:57.276 Had anyone I want to pause on that for a 0:08:57.316 --> 0:09:02.356 moment because one of the many remarkable the most remarkable 0:09:02.356 --> 0:09:05.436 thing about the documentary from a technical standpoint, is that 0:09:05.516 --> 0:09:10.356 it is largely shot in FaceTime right or in video calls. 0:09:11.636 --> 0:09:14.196 I don't know what percentage of the movie ends up being. 0:09:15.316 --> 0:09:18.036 Thirty percent of the movie is just the is the 0:09:18.396 --> 0:09:22.036 prisoners facetiming with you and you had this? Has this 0:09:22.076 --> 0:09:23.036 been done before? 0:09:25.356 --> 0:09:27.596 I mean I don't know of it having been done before, 0:09:27.996 --> 0:09:33.236 because it's such an unusual situation, not only because the 0:09:33.276 --> 0:09:36.676 men had access to cell phones, but because they had 0:09:36.996 --> 0:09:41.876 collected all this material over years that showed what was 0:09:41.956 --> 0:09:46.396 really happening in the system and showed episodes of you know, 0:09:46.436 --> 0:09:49.876 really shocking episodes. I mean, when I saw it, I thought, 0:09:50.116 --> 0:09:53.156 you know, this is like watching Titkeke at follies. You're 0:09:53.196 --> 0:09:57.276 looking at a whole segment of the population that's just 0:09:57.756 --> 0:10:01.996 been abandoned, and not just abandoned, but also harmed. And 0:10:02.036 --> 0:10:04.276 then we discovered that there were these men inside who 0:10:04.316 --> 0:10:07.276 were leaders, who were really civil rights leaders, who had 0:10:07.276 --> 0:10:11.716 been managing like a non vibe protest movement for years, 0:10:11.756 --> 0:10:14.316 even before we got there, and so we had the 0:10:14.356 --> 0:10:16.916 benefit of you know, it was like talking to Mandela 0:10:17.036 --> 0:10:19.516 on Robin Island on a cell phone. 0:10:19.716 --> 0:10:21.196 So I would to pause on this because I think 0:10:21.196 --> 0:10:24.596 it's a really important point. And I was naive enough 0:10:25.236 --> 0:10:28.236 about documentaries that it hadn't occurred to me before. But 0:10:29.116 --> 0:10:33.716 with the notion that you were the narrative engine of 0:10:33.756 --> 0:10:38.876 this documentary is the videos being recorded by the prisoners 0:10:38.876 --> 0:10:42.156 themselves in real time and being sent to you, And 0:10:42.236 --> 0:10:45.956 with that you overcome what has always been the biggest 0:10:45.996 --> 0:10:49.796 problem with documentaries, right which is you're telling a story 0:10:49.836 --> 0:10:53.076 after the fact, and any almost always in documentaries, any 0:10:53.156 --> 0:10:57.596 video that you're capturing, unless you get some archival talking 0:10:57.596 --> 0:11:00.556 to people as they reconstruct something that happened far away 0:11:00.556 --> 0:11:05.036 and long ago. This all of that, our artificiality is 0:11:05.116 --> 0:11:09.716 gone from Alabama solution. You're right there to prison with 0:11:09.796 --> 0:11:10.276 these guys. 0:11:11.796 --> 0:11:15.116 Yeah, I mean, it was, it was. It was an 0:11:15.316 --> 0:11:21.316 enormously eye opening and I would say violent experience to 0:11:21.516 --> 0:11:27.156 be drawn into that and to understand that the only 0:11:27.196 --> 0:11:29.476 way that these people can get away with treating human 0:11:29.516 --> 0:11:32.076 beings this way is if it's in darkness. You know, 0:11:32.116 --> 0:11:34.876 you can't you can't do this if the public knows 0:11:34.876 --> 0:11:38.756 that you're doing it, even even a jaded public in 0:11:38.836 --> 0:11:42.996 Alabama who you know, as you know very well, Alabama 0:11:43.036 --> 0:11:48.436 is sort of inured to certain kinds of indignities, and 0:11:48.516 --> 0:11:53.156 you know, they're very propagandized group. You know, it's sort 0:11:53.196 --> 0:11:56.756 of very tough on crime, and the politicians really like 0:11:56.876 --> 0:12:00.276 weaponize the crime victims to just have this constant narrative. 0:12:00.276 --> 0:12:03.476 It's like watching cops twenty four hours a day. It's 0:12:03.636 --> 0:12:07.716 just an advertisement for poor people are crazy and dangerous 0:12:08.276 --> 0:12:15.796 and so being able to to eliminate that layer. You 0:12:15.796 --> 0:12:18.876 know that propaganda layer. You know, there's a great line. 0:12:18.916 --> 0:12:22.156 I mean, one of the leaders in the film, Robert Earl, 0:12:22.236 --> 0:12:26.076 counsel who goes by Kinetic Justice, says, you know, I'm 0:12:26.116 --> 0:12:29.476 in prison. I'm supposed to lie, I'm supposed to exaggerate. 0:12:29.556 --> 0:12:34.036 I'm supposed to make up excuses. So that narrative is 0:12:34.076 --> 0:12:37.956 so strong that unless we can tell the story directly 0:12:38.156 --> 0:12:42.156 to people, they're just going to assume that it's not true. 0:12:42.596 --> 0:12:44.636 And you know, and I felt like going into the 0:12:44.676 --> 0:12:48.436 prisons there, I was far more you know, they would say, oh, well, 0:12:48.556 --> 0:12:50.836 don't talk to the men because they're very dangerous and 0:12:50.876 --> 0:12:53.036 they're going to tell you lies and so on. And 0:12:53.076 --> 0:12:55.676 I felt so much more comfortable talking to the men 0:12:55.716 --> 0:12:57.196 who are incarcerated than the guards. 0:12:57.676 --> 0:13:00.196 Well, how long did it take for you to realize 0:13:00.196 --> 0:13:02.276 that the movie was going to be constructed out of 0:13:02.316 --> 0:13:06.356 these based on videos and prisoners we're sharing with you. 0:13:07.356 --> 0:13:09.836 Well, you know, my biggest anxiety was that we were 0:13:09.876 --> 0:13:13.356 not going to be able to get enough material talking 0:13:13.356 --> 0:13:16.516 to the men. Obviously this archival material where you can 0:13:16.596 --> 0:13:23.436 see really telling things that happen, there was an embarrassment 0:13:23.716 --> 0:13:27.636 of traumatic events. I mean, it was just that was 0:13:27.756 --> 0:13:33.236 like terror bytes worth of that material, but being able 0:13:33.276 --> 0:13:37.516 to talk directly to the men. Once you do it, 0:13:37.556 --> 0:13:39.556 once you're talking to them for five minutes, you think 0:13:39.676 --> 0:13:41.796 this is the only thing I want to watch. I 0:13:41.836 --> 0:13:43.796 don't want to hear anybody. I don't want to hear experts. 0:13:44.916 --> 0:13:46.916 You know, we had this sex do Or Pontier was 0:13:46.996 --> 0:13:49.796 my partner in making the jinks. Who's sitting here right there. 0:13:51.596 --> 0:13:54.196 He and I talked a lot about experts when we 0:13:54.236 --> 0:13:57.316 were making the jinks. You know, we had access to 0:13:57.356 --> 0:13:59.636 the people that were in Bob Durst's life, and we 0:13:59.756 --> 0:14:03.076 had access to people that were present during crimes and 0:14:03.196 --> 0:14:06.516 helpful in crimes and so on, and so it just 0:14:06.636 --> 0:14:08.756 was every time we'd interview somebody would say, well let 0:14:08.796 --> 0:14:10.676 me tell you how this works or something. It just 0:14:10.716 --> 0:14:14.276 wasn't very effective, and in this case it was. It 0:14:14.556 --> 0:14:17.236 would have been absurd, you know, there was we wanted 0:14:17.236 --> 0:14:19.116 to talk to some of the system actors. So we 0:14:19.196 --> 0:14:22.596 ended up getting access to like the Attorney General, who's 0:14:22.636 --> 0:14:26.516 an incredible cinematic villain, and. 0:14:26.396 --> 0:14:28.196 It is I want to talk to him in more detail. 0:14:28.196 --> 0:14:29.716 I want to come back to him. Just pause on that, 0:14:29.796 --> 0:14:32.396 because anyway, keep going. 0:14:32.596 --> 0:14:36.396 And by the way, I particularly enjoyed and my mind 0:14:36.476 --> 0:14:38.876 was a little bit blown by hearing Steve Marshall, the 0:14:38.876 --> 0:14:44.876 Attorney General in your podcast, you know, speaking as the 0:14:45.916 --> 0:14:49.156 convincingly right as the authority who's explaining how you know, 0:14:49.236 --> 0:14:52.436 he's there for crime victims and they've waited thirty five 0:14:52.516 --> 0:14:54.916 years for justice and all that stuff. And this is 0:14:54.916 --> 0:14:59.236 a guy who's presiding over death camps in an American state. 0:15:00.556 --> 0:15:02.436 But he was something, he was somebody that had to 0:15:02.436 --> 0:15:02.796 be there. 0:15:02.876 --> 0:15:06.956 So to to pause for a moment, the movie is about. 0:15:07.076 --> 0:15:11.396 It's a in general, an investigation of the extraordinary brutality 0:15:11.396 --> 0:15:15.996 inside the Alabama prison system, and in particular about the 0:15:16.036 --> 0:15:17.876 murder of a young man at the hands of a guard, 0:15:18.196 --> 0:15:22.316 of a sadistic guard, and then the cover up that 0:15:22.476 --> 0:15:27.436 ensues that you're able to uncover by virtue of these 0:15:27.476 --> 0:15:30.996 calls with the with the prisoners inside the same institution. 0:15:31.436 --> 0:15:37.036 So it's simultaneously a kind of Upton Sinclair like expose 0:15:37.276 --> 0:15:41.596 of a institution and also a murder mystery and im 0:15:42.276 --> 0:15:45.356 and the murder mystery which I don't know whether we 0:15:45.356 --> 0:15:47.996 should give away the one of the key kind of 0:15:48.036 --> 0:15:51.956 moments in the in the movie, but you get it. 0:15:52.076 --> 0:15:57.876 Takes a surprising and horrifying twist. As you're in the 0:15:57.876 --> 0:16:00.476 middle of it. You think you think you're investigating one 0:16:00.596 --> 0:16:04.076 murder and then you end up investigating too And I'm 0:16:04.236 --> 0:16:09.356 how how far into the film was the twist? 0:16:10.036 --> 0:16:12.596 Well, we didn't know what we were making. We never 0:16:12.636 --> 0:16:16.596 know what we're making, right, And sometimes today I think 0:16:16.636 --> 0:16:20.436 in documentary world, you know, somebody, some streamer or something 0:16:20.476 --> 0:16:24.476 will send you a like a an email saying like, 0:16:24.556 --> 0:16:27.036 you know, you need to make this film, and I 0:16:27.116 --> 0:16:29.956 almost never open them, but when I do open them, 0:16:30.036 --> 0:16:33.196 there's always like a deck, and the deck literally will 0:16:33.236 --> 0:16:35.716 say to you, you know, here are the main characters, 0:16:35.796 --> 0:16:38.276 and we've already made agreements with them, and this is 0:16:38.316 --> 0:16:40.636 what they're going to say, and then you know, here's 0:16:40.676 --> 0:16:44.996 what your plotline is going to be. And I just think, 0:16:45.036 --> 0:16:48.996 like that should be an AI film, like you already 0:16:48.996 --> 0:16:50.516 know what it is and you should just say I 0:16:50.676 --> 0:16:53.756 that thing and some people watch it. But the whole 0:16:53.796 --> 0:16:56.236 idea is the journey, right, The whole idea is that 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:58.556 we don't know what's going to happen. You know, when 0:16:58.556 --> 0:17:00.636 I was making Capturing the Freedman's I thought I was 0:17:00.676 --> 0:17:04.236 making a film about professional children's birthday party entertainers in 0:17:04.276 --> 0:17:07.116 New York City, and then you know, it turned out 0:17:07.116 --> 0:17:09.796 to be something that was radically different from that because 0:17:10.116 --> 0:17:13.196 you discover something along the way. When we were making 0:17:13.196 --> 0:17:17.996 the jinks, we knew that Bob Durst wanted to talk, 0:17:18.516 --> 0:17:21.596 and that was interesting enough for me and Zach. What 0:17:22.156 --> 0:17:26.596 we found, the fact that he wanted to talk enough 0:17:26.676 --> 0:17:28.436 that it would lead us down enough pass that we 0:17:28.476 --> 0:17:31.956 would discover evidence and he would get arrested for murder 0:17:32.036 --> 0:17:36.116 the day before the last episode, was totally unpredictable. And 0:17:36.116 --> 0:17:40.236 that's why you do it, right. I mean, so in 0:17:40.276 --> 0:17:43.036 this case, we had just gotten a text message from 0:17:43.036 --> 0:17:47.036 one of the men inside and the I guess the 0:17:47.076 --> 0:17:49.996 only precursor of that was that we had been looking 0:17:49.996 --> 0:17:54.116 at all of the pro sae lawsuits filed by prisoners, 0:17:54.716 --> 0:17:57.076 you know, lawsuits that are filed without the benefit of 0:17:57.076 --> 0:18:00.596 a lawyer. But these guys are kind of incredible lawyers. 0:18:00.756 --> 0:18:04.396 Some of them are really extraordinary, sort of jailhouse lawyers, 0:18:04.396 --> 0:18:10.276 but very very sophisticated. And we had been looking at 0:18:10.316 --> 0:18:13.356 all these lawsuits because we wanted to see who are 0:18:13.396 --> 0:18:17.396 the guards that are coming up repeatedly in these lawsuits 0:18:17.636 --> 0:18:20.076 and we had found this one guard named Rod Gadson, 0:18:21.116 --> 0:18:24.396 Rodrick Gadson, and he was named in I think twenty 0:18:24.476 --> 0:18:28.036 four different brutality suits. And you have to understand, like 0:18:28.636 --> 0:18:34.036 bringing one of these lawsuits in prison is it's the 0:18:34.076 --> 0:18:41.156 most optimistic and kind of absurdest thing because there's no 0:18:41.316 --> 0:18:44.956 money in it. They never get an award. Their conversations 0:18:44.956 --> 0:18:47.196 that happened like, Okay, well this guy got his finger 0:18:47.276 --> 0:18:49.956 intentionally cut off in his cell door by a guard. 0:18:50.596 --> 0:18:52.796 But how much is a finger really worth? You know, 0:18:52.876 --> 0:18:55.356 maybe it's five thousand dollars. It's very hard to get 0:18:55.396 --> 0:18:57.756 a lawyer to cover that. We have lawyers said that 0:18:57.796 --> 0:18:59.516 would say to us along the way, like find me 0:18:59.596 --> 0:19:02.836 a murder that might be worth it, that might be 0:19:02.876 --> 0:19:05.516 worth my getting into it. So in this particular case, 0:19:05.636 --> 0:19:08.476 rod Gadson's name had kept coming up. And then one 0:19:08.556 --> 0:19:16.116 day Mel texts Charlotte, my co director, and says, hey, 0:19:17.636 --> 0:19:21.436 we understand somebody got beaten very badly at Donaldson Prison 0:19:21.516 --> 0:19:24.116 and he's currently at UAB Hospital. So he was moved 0:19:24.156 --> 0:19:26.956 off the campus to the hospital. So Charlotte, I had 0:19:26.956 --> 0:19:30.356 just got in a car in Birmingham and we just 0:19:30.436 --> 0:19:33.196 drove over to the hospital. We walked in and I 0:19:33.236 --> 0:19:35.156 like took my iPhone and I stuck in my pocket 0:19:35.196 --> 0:19:38.036 and moved it around a little bit, and they said, oh, 0:19:38.036 --> 0:19:40.156 you got to go up to the fourth floor, and 0:19:40.196 --> 0:19:41.836 we went up there, and by the time we got there, 0:19:41.876 --> 0:19:44.316 we found that this young man, Stephen Davis, had died. 0:19:44.796 --> 0:19:47.716 So he had been and we didn't know how that 0:19:47.756 --> 0:19:50.236 had happened, other than that he had been beaten. And 0:19:50.276 --> 0:19:54.316 then we went to find his mother because often the 0:19:54.356 --> 0:19:58.116 prison doesn't tell the family members if somebody has been 0:19:58.196 --> 0:20:01.436 killed in prison, especially if it's done by a guard, 0:20:01.556 --> 0:20:04.596 if the guard is responsible, they immediately scramble all the 0:20:04.596 --> 0:20:06.756 witnesses and they will say, well, let's not tell his 0:20:06.956 --> 0:20:09.916 mother for two weeks. We'll move the these guys around them, 0:20:09.996 --> 0:20:11.676 we'll give this guy an incentive to go to a 0:20:11.716 --> 0:20:14.516 different facility, and we'll help this other guy, because they 0:20:14.556 --> 0:20:17.156 just don't want the evidence. And in that case, we 0:20:17.196 --> 0:20:20.396 went to Sandy Ray's house. She had just been with 0:20:20.476 --> 0:20:22.916 her son hours before that and had taken Mo off 0:20:22.956 --> 0:20:27.996 life support, and she said, you guys are making a 0:20:28.036 --> 0:20:30.756 film and we said yeah. She said, well, I want 0:20:30.796 --> 0:20:33.196 to help you do it. I don't want this to 0:20:33.236 --> 0:20:36.636 happen to any other mother, and so right now they're 0:20:36.716 --> 0:20:39.196 lying to me. I know, the prison's calling me right now, 0:20:39.236 --> 0:20:41.316 and they're lying to me about what happens. So show 0:20:41.396 --> 0:20:44.196 me how to record my phone calls. So we got 0:20:44.196 --> 0:20:45.876 on her phone and we showed her how to record 0:20:45.916 --> 0:20:47.516 a phone call. And then she said, by the way, 0:20:47.516 --> 0:20:51.196 there are no motels here because Uniontown only has four 0:20:51.236 --> 0:20:54.236 hundred people in it, so you know, I have this 0:20:54.316 --> 0:20:57.436 spare room. So Charlotte just like got her duffel back 0:20:57.516 --> 0:20:59.276 and just moved in for a couple of weeks into 0:20:59.276 --> 0:21:00.276 Sandy's house, which is. 0:21:00.236 --> 0:21:02.476 Why, yeah, waiting for the call to come. 0:21:02.556 --> 0:21:06.116 Not just that call, but it's just watching how Sandy 0:21:06.196 --> 0:21:08.596 was discovering what had really happened to her son and 0:21:08.636 --> 0:21:12.236 eventually getting a call from somebody inside the prison who 0:21:12.276 --> 0:21:15.836 was a whistleblower who said doesn't even want to identify himself, 0:21:15.956 --> 0:21:18.396 but says, you know this is not this was not 0:21:18.516 --> 0:21:19.956 a I wonder described it well. 0:21:20.036 --> 0:21:25.436 Watching My first kind of like technical question was you 0:21:25.516 --> 0:21:29.556 had you're there in the room on camera with the 0:21:29.596 --> 0:21:32.116 mom when she gets the call from the state or 0:21:32.156 --> 0:21:34.156 the Department of Corrections. I was like, how on earth 0:21:34.196 --> 0:21:36.116 were they there in the room, like I didn't understand. Technically, 0:21:36.276 --> 0:21:38.636 now I know how it happened. They were victims of 0:21:38.676 --> 0:21:41.876 their own because it's they built a delay in order 0:21:41.876 --> 0:21:43.556 to build a cover up, and in so doing they 0:21:43.556 --> 0:21:46.036 destroyed their cover up weirdly. 0:21:46.116 --> 0:21:48.636 Well yeah, and by the way, in terms of being 0:21:48.636 --> 0:21:52.556 shot with your own gun, the contraband cell phones that 0:21:52.596 --> 0:21:57.156 are in the prison are all sold to the inmates 0:21:57.156 --> 0:22:00.276 in the prison by the guards. Right. As a matter 0:22:00.276 --> 0:22:04.556 of fact, when I started to discover how many, just 0:22:04.636 --> 0:22:09.956 how much drugs were coming into the prison or this 0:22:10.276 --> 0:22:12.956 enormous cash of cell phones that were coming to the prison, 0:22:13.396 --> 0:22:15.036 I was talking to one of the prisoners and I 0:22:15.076 --> 0:22:17.556 said to him, you know, where's all this coming from? 0:22:17.636 --> 0:22:19.116 And he looked at me like I was an idiot, 0:22:19.116 --> 0:22:24.196 and he said, you know, we don't leave, right. So 0:22:24.356 --> 0:22:26.796 clearly the people that come and go every day are 0:22:26.796 --> 0:22:28.916 the ones that are going out and getting drugs and 0:22:28.916 --> 0:22:30.836 going out and buying cell phones and bring him in. 0:22:31.396 --> 0:22:34.756 So it's kind of incredibly ironic that the tool that 0:22:34.796 --> 0:22:38.196 the men are using to identify the crimes that are 0:22:38.236 --> 0:22:42.276 being committed by the ostensible law enforcement officers are sold 0:22:42.276 --> 0:22:45.516 to them by aforementioned law enforcement officers. 0:22:45.676 --> 0:22:47.756 I had a lot of difficulty, even after I had 0:22:47.756 --> 0:22:51.116 spent months and months and months doing my Alabama project, 0:22:51.716 --> 0:22:55.916 I was just aghast. I don't know why was I 0:22:55.916 --> 0:22:59.556 I was just something about seeing it because I only heard. 0:23:00.556 --> 0:23:02.916 My whole thing was just listening to people tell me stories. Right, 0:23:02.916 --> 0:23:05.556 I didn't see anything. Will be the point. I'm doing 0:23:05.556 --> 0:23:09.836 a podcast. I suddenly there's a scene in the doc 0:23:10.116 --> 0:23:13.236 when it's I don't know why the scene has stayed 0:23:13.276 --> 0:23:16.996 with me, but I've forgotten. One of your characters gets 0:23:16.996 --> 0:23:20.316 sent to solitary and he's on the phone and he 0:23:21.036 --> 0:23:25.036 shows you these jars he has that are full of 0:23:25.116 --> 0:23:28.996 He's telling you why he hangs his food up in 0:23:29.036 --> 0:23:32.076 a bag high off the ground on his prison cell. 0:23:32.596 --> 0:23:34.156 And then and then he gets in trouble for it 0:23:34.196 --> 0:23:35.796 every day, but he says, well, the reason I do 0:23:35.876 --> 0:23:38.356 that is because of these guys. And he shows you 0:23:39.036 --> 0:23:41.916 jars that have little live rats inside of it. And 0:23:41.956 --> 0:23:44.076 then he shows you his toilet and you see rats 0:23:44.076 --> 0:23:47.316 swimming in his toilet, and he says, I caught eleven 0:23:47.356 --> 0:23:48.556 of these last. 0:23:48.396 --> 0:23:50.756 Night, Eleven caught in one night, eleven caught in one night. 0:23:51.356 --> 0:23:54.476 They keep my food laundry bead hanging from the bars, 0:23:55.596 --> 0:23:57.836 and they write me different, theres be hanging things from 0:23:57.836 --> 0:24:00.356 the bars, but if I had put it on the floor, 0:24:01.396 --> 0:24:04.316 they'll hit it rats. 0:24:06.956 --> 0:24:07.476 One back. 0:24:08.836 --> 0:24:12.956 And that was the point, was like I was like Jesus, 0:24:14.836 --> 0:24:17.356 why that's not the worst but way not even close 0:24:17.436 --> 0:24:19.876 to being the worst thing that happens. But something about 0:24:19.916 --> 0:24:22.756 the visual of realizing that there are people who will 0:24:23.316 --> 0:24:29.876 happily tolerate conditions like that inside of prison, like the 0:24:29.916 --> 0:24:33.476 administration is fine with that. Somehow, that somehow got me. 0:24:34.596 --> 0:24:36.436 Well, first of all, I can tell from your description 0:24:36.516 --> 0:24:38.676 that everyone's going to run out and immediately go to 0:24:38.836 --> 0:24:43.436 HBO and watch this film so that they can see 0:24:43.716 --> 0:24:48.716 But it is, it is, it is extraordinary that that 0:24:49.796 --> 0:24:53.436 the and I have to say just I think one 0:24:53.476 --> 0:24:58.476 of the things that in your podcast that was so 0:24:59.156 --> 0:25:01.236 telling to me, and I really think it brings these 0:25:01.276 --> 0:25:09.236 stories together, is your postulate of the moral failure cascade. 0:25:09.916 --> 0:25:15.116 You know that you have a series of small or 0:25:15.436 --> 0:25:22.196 larger or growing problems and events that happen, and then 0:25:22.596 --> 0:25:24.476 one thing leads to another and it gets worse and 0:25:24.516 --> 0:25:27.756 worse and worse, and I think, you know, people get 0:25:27.836 --> 0:25:29.756 used to it. You know, they get to the point 0:25:29.796 --> 0:25:31.756 where they say, well, I mean, how many people are 0:25:31.796 --> 0:25:36.276 really you know, I mean some people are going to die? Right? Well, 0:25:36.316 --> 0:25:38.396 I don't know what if we have the deadliest prison 0:25:38.436 --> 0:25:40.596 system in America at some point, are we going to 0:25:40.676 --> 0:25:43.036 look at that and say, like, maybe we're doing something wrong? 0:25:43.476 --> 0:25:46.676 But you hear you have Steve Marshall, the one person 0:25:46.716 --> 0:25:49.236 that we share in this the podcast and also in 0:25:49.276 --> 0:25:52.396 the film, who says, you know, I've been told that 0:25:52.436 --> 0:25:56.556 there's some kind of systemic problem in all of our facilities. Right, 0:25:56.596 --> 0:26:02.436 We've just been watching an hour of the most punishing material. 0:26:02.516 --> 0:26:07.676 You can't imagine prison after prison after prison, Donaldson Prison, 0:26:07.836 --> 0:26:11.676 Kilby Prison, bib Prison, each one of these places home 0:26:11.716 --> 0:26:13.596 and where they have two hundred and forty people on 0:26:13.636 --> 0:26:19.596 the death row. And your guy was right before he's executed. 0:26:21.916 --> 0:26:23.716 You've been watching that for an hour, and then here's 0:26:23.716 --> 0:26:27.236 Steve Marshall, the chief law enforcement officer of the State 0:26:27.276 --> 0:26:30.516 of Alabama, and he says, I've been told that there's 0:26:30.516 --> 0:26:33.556 some systemic problem in all of our facilities. And I 0:26:33.596 --> 0:26:39.236 wholeheartedly disagree with that. Yeah, and it's not just willful blindness. 0:26:39.316 --> 0:26:43.636 I mean, it's just it's just intentional cruelty. It's a 0:26:43.676 --> 0:26:48.196 willingness to preside over a system of death camps. They 0:26:48.196 --> 0:26:51.156 are death camps. We have to say that's what they are. 0:26:51.236 --> 0:26:53.156 Since we started working in the film, which was seven 0:26:53.276 --> 0:26:57.236 years ago, fifteen hundred people have died in that little 0:26:57.276 --> 0:27:00.516 prison system. You know, they have twenty thousand people in 0:27:00.556 --> 0:27:03.676 the prison system. They have another twenty five thousand in 0:27:03.716 --> 0:27:08.476 the jails in Alabama where people die regularly and somehow 0:27:08.516 --> 0:27:11.876 people are done of, you know, highest level of drug 0:27:11.916 --> 0:27:14.356 overdose of any prison system in the country, not that 0:27:14.396 --> 0:27:18.676 there are not lots of other horrific ones, highest numbers 0:27:18.676 --> 0:27:25.356 of suicide, highest level of sexual assault, and just the 0:27:25.396 --> 0:27:29.076 brutality of the situation. You can't you can't run that 0:27:29.236 --> 0:27:31.556 without knowing it. You can't say, well, I wasn't aware 0:27:31.556 --> 0:27:33.636 of it, because there were enough layers between me and 0:27:33.676 --> 0:27:38.196 the people that were, you know, actually in the in 0:27:38.236 --> 0:27:40.916 the trenches doing the business of killing people. 0:27:43.156 --> 0:27:46.796 After the break, more from my conversation with Andrew Jireki, 0:27:56.516 --> 0:27:59.436 Let's talk a little bit about Alabama, because I'm curious 0:27:59.476 --> 0:28:04.556 about what you what was your level of understanding, knowledge, 0:28:04.596 --> 0:28:06.876 familiarity with Alabama before you did this project. 0:28:08.436 --> 0:28:10.916 It was probably the state I knew the least about 0:28:11.076 --> 0:28:14.116 in the Union. You know, it's just not something if 0:28:14.156 --> 0:28:17.596 you grew up in New York City and you study history, 0:28:17.596 --> 0:28:20.636 you're not spending a ton of time on Alabama. I 0:28:20.716 --> 0:28:23.356 knew a little bit, you know, like there, I don't know, 0:28:23.436 --> 0:28:27.876 like the state motto of you know, a typical American 0:28:28.156 --> 0:28:31.236 state will be like the Sunshine State or the show 0:28:31.276 --> 0:28:31.836 Me State. 0:28:31.916 --> 0:28:32.116 You know. 0:28:32.236 --> 0:28:37.596 Alabama's motto is we dare defend our rights. Yeah, you know, 0:28:37.676 --> 0:28:39.876 which is really like if you want to come and 0:28:39.876 --> 0:28:43.436 have an opinion, you can go fuck yourself. We're not 0:28:43.556 --> 0:28:46.116 interested in your opinion. We're just going to do our thing. 0:28:46.156 --> 0:28:47.876 And certainly we don't want you telling us how to 0:28:47.916 --> 0:28:53.716 deal with our negroes or our population of prisoners, or 0:28:53.916 --> 0:28:56.956 our crime or you know, any of it. It's just 0:28:57.196 --> 0:28:58.636 there's a wall. 0:28:58.756 --> 0:29:01.156 I'm not sure whether that's more or less egregious than 0:29:01.156 --> 0:29:04.556 New Jersey calling itself the garden state. But where are 0:29:04.556 --> 0:29:07.316 these gardens in New Jersey? I get to see anything 0:29:07.356 --> 0:29:13.276 along to it Turnpike. But uh, it's it's a heart. 0:29:13.436 --> 0:29:15.116 You know. I've done I was kind of I think 0:29:15.116 --> 0:29:18.756 that I have done more. Podcast episodes of Rusion's history 0:29:19.036 --> 0:29:21.476 that are situated in Alabama, within in any other state. 0:29:21.956 --> 0:29:26.956 I'm drawn to this place. And for the same reason, 0:29:27.076 --> 0:29:32.436 I feel like it's not the United States. It's something 0:29:33.796 --> 0:29:36.996 an it's it is within the United States, but not 0:29:37.076 --> 0:29:38.956 of the United States, or maybe I'm being too kind 0:29:38.996 --> 0:29:41.876 to the United States. It is clearly in some ways 0:29:41.876 --> 0:29:42.636 a foreign country. 0:29:43.556 --> 0:29:46.516 It's kind of amazing you're saying that because the chaplain 0:29:46.996 --> 0:29:51.796 who I visited and met and encouraged me to come back, 0:29:52.236 --> 0:29:56.996 Chaplain Browder, after I was in it for six months, 0:29:57.036 --> 0:30:00.356 so the first year or two, and I was stayed 0:30:00.356 --> 0:30:03.556 in touch with him constantly. He's quite he's quite a 0:30:03.596 --> 0:30:05.316 bit older now, he's seven years older than when I 0:30:05.316 --> 0:30:09.556 first met him. But he's still very thoughtful guy. And 0:30:09.916 --> 0:30:12.716 he said, I'm telling you, Andrew, Alabama and in these 0:30:12.836 --> 0:30:16.316 United States. Yeah. But you know, then you ask yourself 0:30:16.316 --> 0:30:18.756 whether that's even right. You know. The reality is is 0:30:18.796 --> 0:30:21.916 that you know, upstate New York, Robert Brooks just got 0:30:21.996 --> 0:30:25.036 killed in upstate New York by corrections officers who beat 0:30:25.076 --> 0:30:27.356 him to death. And the only reason we don't think 0:30:27.396 --> 0:30:30.356 it was natural causes or a drug overdose is because 0:30:30.396 --> 0:30:32.996 they were I don't even want to say dumb enough. 0:30:33.156 --> 0:30:37.116 They were entitled enough to just leave their body cameras 0:30:37.156 --> 0:30:39.796 on because they just assumed that nobody was ever really 0:30:39.836 --> 0:30:41.796 going to try to figure out what happened to poor 0:30:41.876 --> 0:30:44.756 Robert Brooks who was handcuffed when they beat him to death. 0:30:45.276 --> 0:30:48.836 So it's happening in New York. You know, if you 0:30:48.876 --> 0:30:51.396 were in it, if you would put your dog in 0:30:51.556 --> 0:30:53.836 upstate New York and at kennel because you were going 0:30:53.876 --> 0:30:57.596 on holiday and you saw this, you would say, I'm 0:30:57.596 --> 0:31:01.396 calling the ASPCA. This is a total disaster. Nobody can 0:31:01.396 --> 0:31:05.116 put their dog in this, So it's not a whole 0:31:05.156 --> 0:31:06.676 lot better in a lot of these places. 0:31:06.956 --> 0:31:09.916 Two things can be true simultane see. One is that 0:31:10.996 --> 0:31:16.756 in general, the prison conditions in the United States are 0:31:16.876 --> 0:31:19.996 appalling compared to our peers around the world. But there 0:31:20.076 --> 0:31:27.036 is something particular and unusual about Alabama that elevates Alabama 0:31:27.076 --> 0:31:30.876 even above its miserable peers. And I wonder whether the 0:31:30.876 --> 0:31:32.756 weekend sort of since we've both been immersed in this, 0:31:33.116 --> 0:31:35.636 we can put our finger on what it is. And 0:31:35.956 --> 0:31:40.836 I'm wondering, I'm thinking about Steve Marshall, which is if 0:31:40.876 --> 0:31:42.436 you I don't know I'm making this up, but if 0:31:42.476 --> 0:31:44.596 you sat down with the Attorney General of New York State, 0:31:45.556 --> 0:31:49.836 they they would have the good grace to be embarrassed 0:31:49.916 --> 0:31:54.276 about what was happening in the prisons. Steve Marshall, And 0:31:54.316 --> 0:31:55.476 I want you to talk a little bit about your 0:31:55.476 --> 0:31:59.996 interview with Steve Marshall. Steve Marshall, when confronted with these questions, 0:32:00.516 --> 0:32:03.756 wasn't even remotely embarrassed. In fact, he had the gall 0:32:04.316 --> 0:32:06.476 when he had to give that one quote from him 0:32:06.516 --> 0:32:09.476 about when you ask him about Christian grace, he says, 0:32:09.516 --> 0:32:11.396 I believe in Christian grace, but that doesn't mean somebody 0:32:11.396 --> 0:32:12.236 should got out of prison. 0:32:12.516 --> 0:32:15.356 I mean, look, I think anybody can have a change 0:32:15.356 --> 0:32:18.076 of heart. Oh I'll say that, I think God can 0:32:18.116 --> 0:32:22.276 invade somebody believe in the concept of grace. But grace 0:32:22.276 --> 0:32:25.876 atself doesn't mean released from prison. Grace means that you're 0:32:25.996 --> 0:32:27.516 relieved from the burden of your sin. 0:32:28.556 --> 0:32:31.436 It's not even that he's defiant, it's that he thinks 0:32:31.436 --> 0:32:36.436 he's on the side of God right now. That is different. 0:32:36.796 --> 0:32:40.796 Can you what are your thoughts on the peculiarity of 0:32:40.796 --> 0:32:42.916 Alabama and can you talk about let's talk about Steve 0:32:42.916 --> 0:32:44.236 Marshall because you spend time with him. 0:32:44.596 --> 0:32:45.356 Yeah, how much? 0:32:45.476 --> 0:32:46.436 How long was that interview? 0:32:48.156 --> 0:32:51.116 I think that interview was shorter than most. Maybe it 0:32:51.156 --> 0:32:52.796 was two hours. 0:32:53.156 --> 0:32:56.276 This is why I love documentarians. Your idea of shorter 0:32:56.276 --> 0:32:57.236 than most is two hours. 0:32:57.476 --> 0:32:57.676 Yeah. 0:32:57.756 --> 0:32:59.476 My idea of shorter than most is ten minutes. 0:33:01.116 --> 0:33:05.756 We do some sevens and some nines, you know Jesus. Yeah, yeah, 0:33:05.756 --> 0:33:08.956 they're kick. Usually the wife is like standing and the 0:33:09.156 --> 0:33:11.356 corner and being like looking at the watch. 0:33:11.636 --> 0:33:13.676 But Steve Marshall gave you two hours. 0:33:15.876 --> 0:33:18.756 Yeah. I mean, you know, the great thing about somebody 0:33:18.836 --> 0:33:22.596 like this is that they say the quiet part out loud. 0:33:23.396 --> 0:33:27.596 There's no there's no shame in it. And I don't 0:33:27.716 --> 0:33:31.836 really know how he manages it, you know, as a 0:33:31.876 --> 0:33:35.676 self proclaimed Christian, I don't know how he goes and 0:33:36.396 --> 0:33:40.396 kisses his kids and says like daddy's upholding the law 0:33:40.476 --> 0:33:45.116 and so on, because he knows what the statistics are. Right, 0:33:45.156 --> 0:33:47.596 Let's say he just doesn't he forces himself or he 0:33:47.956 --> 0:33:51.716 prevents himself from from having access to the prisons. You know, 0:33:51.756 --> 0:33:55.236 you can always put some kind of operachic in between 0:33:55.276 --> 0:33:57.116 you and the prisons. And then you say, I don't 0:33:57.156 --> 0:33:58.876 know I saw the reports, and it doesn't look like 0:33:58.916 --> 0:34:01.516 it's all that bad. So I don't know how he 0:34:01.796 --> 0:34:05.476 describes it to himself, but and I think, you know, 0:34:05.556 --> 0:34:07.956 politicians are kind of will of the wisp. And you know, 0:34:07.956 --> 0:34:09.956 he used to be a Democrat, and then now he's 0:34:09.956 --> 0:34:13.916 a Republican, and then he was recently so Republican that 0:34:13.956 --> 0:34:16.476 he was one of the guys who one of the 0:34:16.556 --> 0:34:19.156 local state officials who came to New York and put 0:34:19.196 --> 0:34:21.916 on the red tie and the Trump outfit and went 0:34:21.996 --> 0:34:25.996 down to Lower Manhattan and start talking about how Trump 0:34:26.116 --> 0:34:28.956 was being railroaded by the justice system and so on. 0:34:29.236 --> 0:34:31.756 So he's always auditioning. And by the way, right now, 0:34:31.796 --> 0:34:35.076 Steve Marshall's trying to run for Senate. He's trying to 0:34:35.116 --> 0:34:39.356 run for Tommy Tubberville's seat in the Senate. So the 0:34:39.396 --> 0:34:43.396 football coach, Tommy Tubberville became a US senator from Alabama. 0:34:44.516 --> 0:34:46.396 He's the one that did not know that there were 0:34:46.396 --> 0:34:49.756 three branches of government, right, He did not have a 0:34:49.756 --> 0:34:50.516 lot of training. 0:34:50.996 --> 0:34:52.676 He just thought it was offense and defense. 0:34:54.276 --> 0:34:57.596 Exactly what would you do with this third branch? Especially, 0:34:57.636 --> 0:35:00.796 that's what's happening in the federal government too. They're getting 0:35:00.876 --> 0:35:03.476 rid of some of the branches out here. We have 0:35:03.516 --> 0:35:05.196 too many branches that we're going to We're going to 0:35:05.276 --> 0:35:09.476 doze those branches right out. But you know, I think 0:35:09.476 --> 0:35:16.356 he just imagines. First of all, I think he's very 0:35:16.396 --> 0:35:20.556 politically expeditious. You know, he wants to become a US senator. 0:35:20.596 --> 0:35:22.236 He wants to be the guy that's the tough on 0:35:22.356 --> 0:35:28.396 crime guy. He's sort of made book with this organization 0:35:28.556 --> 0:35:32.436 called Vocal in Alabama, which is Victims of Crime and Leniency, 0:35:33.036 --> 0:35:36.436 which is literally like a group of women who are 0:35:36.516 --> 0:35:40.436 crime who you know, had a crime happen in their family, 0:35:41.156 --> 0:35:45.916 and they go to every parole hearing and they don't 0:35:45.956 --> 0:35:48.316 know the people. They get a little card before they 0:35:48.356 --> 0:35:50.636 go there. We sort of embedded with them and maybe 0:35:50.836 --> 0:35:53.276 should make a film about them. And they go to 0:35:53.316 --> 0:35:54.956 a parole hearing where you have a guy who's been 0:35:54.956 --> 0:35:58.196 locked up for twenty five years. He's an ordained minister, 0:35:58.436 --> 0:36:03.236 he's taken every conceivable class, he's like mentored five hundred 0:36:03.276 --> 0:36:06.556 young men that have been in there. And this a 0:36:06.596 --> 0:36:09.516 woman will get up and say, you know, I'm here 0:36:09.636 --> 0:36:15.476 to protest the parole of Kevin Johnson, And you know 0:36:15.596 --> 0:36:19.516 he committed a crime in nineteen seventy three. They have 0:36:19.596 --> 0:36:21.716 no idea what it is. They just know he committed 0:36:21.716 --> 0:36:23.556 a crime and he should not be parled. And then 0:36:23.596 --> 0:36:25.956 they stand in front of the parole board and they 0:36:25.996 --> 0:36:28.996 say to the three members the parle board, if you 0:36:29.396 --> 0:36:34.156 let this man out and he re offends, it will 0:36:34.156 --> 0:36:36.956 be on your neck and everyone will know that you 0:36:37.116 --> 0:36:38.756 did that. And you know, that's one of the things 0:36:38.796 --> 0:36:42.196 that drove Alabama's parole rate to eight percent. 0:36:42.396 --> 0:36:44.876 Which is that the last lowest in the country. 0:36:45.156 --> 0:36:47.596 Yeah, it was at that time. It was. It's improved 0:36:47.596 --> 0:36:49.596 a little bit, and I think it's improved in part, 0:36:50.036 --> 0:36:53.996 you know, because of the work in and around the film, 0:36:54.476 --> 0:36:57.356 because you know, among other things, it was a lawsuit 0:36:58.156 --> 0:37:01.996 that was sparked by the film, this class action lawsuit 0:37:02.436 --> 0:37:05.556 in which Kinetic Justice Robert rol Council is the lead plaintiff, 0:37:06.036 --> 0:37:09.876 that really calls out Alabama for having a system of leasing. 0:37:10.476 --> 0:37:13.356 And you know, because a lot of people don't realize 0:37:13.436 --> 0:37:18.436 a that Alabama and many states like it benefit from 0:37:18.596 --> 0:37:20.796 let's say, just in the case of Alabama, four hundred 0:37:21.036 --> 0:37:25.156 and fifty million dollars a year in unpaid labor and 0:37:25.196 --> 0:37:29.116 the men inside are forced to provide this labor. And 0:37:29.196 --> 0:37:34.436 by forced, you know, maybe there's not a man with 0:37:34.516 --> 0:37:38.036 a bull whip that's standing over them, but it's in 0:37:38.116 --> 0:37:41.316 some ways, you know, every bit is bad because if 0:37:41.356 --> 0:37:45.756 you refuse to work, then you can be you can 0:37:45.796 --> 0:37:48.996 be given a disciplinary which can extend your sentence. You 0:37:49.156 --> 0:37:53.276 can be placed in solitary, which happens a lot in Alabama. 0:37:53.436 --> 0:37:57.036 So basically, the you know, un says solitary confinement for 0:37:57.076 --> 0:37:59.636 more than fifteen days as torture. They're putting people in 0:37:59.676 --> 0:38:03.516 for years at a time, and you could be moved 0:38:03.516 --> 0:38:05.996 to an even more violent facility than the one that 0:38:06.036 --> 0:38:10.276 you're in. So so it is a coerced forced labor. 0:38:10.316 --> 0:38:13.036 You can't be sick one day, you can't do anything. 0:38:13.236 --> 0:38:16.236 But I think what people don't understand is the prisoner's 0:38:16.276 --> 0:38:20.636 Alabama and some other states, it's not that they're being 0:38:20.676 --> 0:38:24.316 forced to work in the prison. Maybe reasonable people could say, oh, 0:38:24.396 --> 0:38:26.436 maybe you should be sweeping the floor in the prison 0:38:26.476 --> 0:38:29.156 if you're working in the prison, But they also get 0:38:29.236 --> 0:38:32.036 leased out to the governor's mansion where they clean the 0:38:32.076 --> 0:38:36.156 floors and they polish the tiles, and they did the landscaping. 0:38:36.476 --> 0:38:40.276 They also get leased out to road crews, construction crews. 0:38:40.716 --> 0:38:43.316 The state makes money from all of that. They issue 0:38:43.316 --> 0:38:45.116 invoices which you can see in the film. You know, 0:38:45.196 --> 0:38:47.716 this is for X dollars an hour, and then they 0:38:47.756 --> 0:38:50.716 pay them in two dollars a day to do sanitation 0:38:50.836 --> 0:38:53.436 work or something like that, and then they send them 0:38:53.436 --> 0:38:56.756 out to work at McDonald's. They lease them to McDonald's, 0:38:57.036 --> 0:38:59.036 they lease them to Burger King, they lease them to 0:38:59.076 --> 0:39:04.716 the Hyundai Parts Company, they lease them to the Budweiser distributorship. So, 0:39:05.036 --> 0:39:07.076 you know, you go to the state Fair in Alabama, 0:39:07.556 --> 0:39:09.476 you know, we have this kind of amazing show of 0:39:09.476 --> 0:39:13.236 a guy in a corrections uniform who's standing with a 0:39:13.316 --> 0:39:17.156 little girl and he is reaching into the duck pond 0:39:17.196 --> 0:39:19.836 and he takes a little duck out, a little baby duckling, 0:39:19.836 --> 0:39:22.876 and he hands it and the mother's clapping and is 0:39:23.036 --> 0:39:29.596 taking photographs. And the chilling statistic behind that Alabama DOS 0:39:29.596 --> 0:39:32.956 not tracked this, but we tracked it is that if 0:39:32.996 --> 0:39:36.516 you're considered safe enough to go out into the community 0:39:36.796 --> 0:39:39.156 to work at McDonald's or to work at the state fair, 0:39:41.276 --> 0:39:45.876 you have a statistically lower chance of being paroled than 0:39:45.916 --> 0:39:47.876 if you're somebody at a higher custody level. 0:39:49.756 --> 0:39:51.916 Why because you're not economically valuable to them? 0:39:52.116 --> 0:39:55.956 Absolutely, yeah, And they don't track that statistic. And I 0:39:55.996 --> 0:39:58.116 think Steve Marshall might be surprised if I said that, 0:39:58.196 --> 0:39:59.956 or he would say, oh, it doesn't sound right, and 0:40:00.036 --> 0:40:03.076 then we would say, well, you know, there's a reason 0:40:03.116 --> 0:40:05.516 why you don't track that statistic. But it kind of 0:40:05.516 --> 0:40:07.476 makes sense, right the people that are out there, and 0:40:07.476 --> 0:40:09.916 people are all these anecdotal stories of people saying, well, 0:40:09.956 --> 0:40:11.796 I was sick and I woke up in the morning 0:40:11.796 --> 0:40:13.556 and that guy came in and said, you need to 0:40:13.556 --> 0:40:15.076 go out there and make me some money. 0:40:15.436 --> 0:40:17.836 Yeah. How I want to talk a little bit about 0:40:17.876 --> 0:40:21.276 the difference in the way that you and I both 0:40:22.196 --> 0:40:27.116 or your team and my team both began with a 0:40:27.156 --> 0:40:31.916 similar kind of question, which was how can we shed 0:40:31.996 --> 0:40:38.756 light on the practices of this very strange state. And 0:40:39.756 --> 0:40:42.716 I was working in the podcast genre, you're working in 0:40:42.756 --> 0:40:46.436 the documentary genre, and we both of us made very 0:40:46.476 --> 0:40:49.396 very different choices, And I wanted to reflect on one 0:40:49.396 --> 0:40:54.596 of the biggest differences, which is in our Alabama murders, 0:40:55.676 --> 0:40:58.876 we spend an enormous amount of time on the backstory 0:40:58.996 --> 0:41:03.476 of our characters, our protagonists. We really want you to 0:41:03.516 --> 0:41:07.636 know we're telling the story of these two guys on 0:41:07.676 --> 0:41:11.036 death Row. We really want you to know about those guys. 0:41:11.236 --> 0:41:14.556 We talked to them and who they were and what happened, 0:41:14.596 --> 0:41:20.796 you know, et cetera. In your movie documentary, we only 0:41:20.916 --> 0:41:26.236 learn we get that kind of backstory in passing Right. 0:41:27.476 --> 0:41:30.716 There's a moment, for example, where you're talking about James Syles, 0:41:30.796 --> 0:41:34.596 one of the principal characters in the documentary, and we 0:41:34.716 --> 0:41:37.916 learned why was he in one of the highest security 0:41:38.916 --> 0:41:42.276 prisons in Alabama because he got fifteen years for breaking 0:41:42.316 --> 0:41:47.996 into a unoccupied building. It just happens in like ten seconds. 0:41:48.036 --> 0:41:49.836 We learned peace of permission, and then you move on 0:41:50.036 --> 0:41:53.516 right now. It's incredibly powerful in that little form. But 0:41:53.596 --> 0:42:01.116 I'm curious, why do you do things that way? Why 0:42:01.196 --> 0:42:06.116 is it that the form that you've chosen encourages you 0:42:06.276 --> 0:42:09.796 or directs you away from kind of luxury r curiating in 0:42:09.876 --> 0:42:13.236 the backstory the way that we do in the podcast world. 0:42:14.396 --> 0:42:16.956 I mean, you know, if you look at Capturing the 0:42:16.956 --> 0:42:21.436 Freedman's there's just an enormous amount of archival material of 0:42:21.476 --> 0:42:25.996 that family, including going back you know, seventy five years 0:42:25.676 --> 0:42:29.076 to the you know, family members that kind of came 0:42:29.156 --> 0:42:33.836 to this country. And then in the jinks we have 0:42:35.396 --> 0:42:38.836 lots of photographs, but we also have moving pictures of 0:42:38.996 --> 0:42:41.236 Robert Durst when he was a kid, and you get 0:42:41.276 --> 0:42:44.236 to see the awkwardness, You get to see the feeling 0:42:44.276 --> 0:42:47.436 that this is a person who didn't particularly fit in 0:42:47.476 --> 0:42:50.836 and you see him, you know, in modern day, you 0:42:50.876 --> 0:42:53.436 see him twitching. Robert Durst has a lot of twitches. 0:42:54.356 --> 0:42:56.636 And then you see a little you know, film of 0:42:56.716 --> 0:42:58.836 him getting up on the diving board as a kid, 0:42:58.996 --> 0:43:01.796 or you know, somebody doing a movie of him like 0:43:01.836 --> 0:43:04.516 his mother, and you see the same kind of twitches. 0:43:04.556 --> 0:43:07.236 You see the early phases of what his So I 0:43:07.236 --> 0:43:13.476 think that stuff is extremely valuable in this film. I 0:43:13.516 --> 0:43:17.596 think that we had so many you know, there was 0:43:18.036 --> 0:43:21.036 ten pounds of flour in a two pound bag. Always 0:43:21.276 --> 0:43:25.596 it was always so hard to convey the tapestry of 0:43:26.236 --> 0:43:30.156 how we got here and try to incorporate everything from 0:43:30.196 --> 0:43:33.836 the slave labor to the parole to that why they 0:43:33.876 --> 0:43:36.036 weren't letting people out of the system, how they put 0:43:36.036 --> 0:43:38.156 people in the system, how people are when they're in 0:43:38.156 --> 0:43:41.356 the system, and then also try to have a narrative 0:43:41.356 --> 0:43:43.796 thread that was going to bring people along, you know, 0:43:43.876 --> 0:43:46.236 because we used to have this expression just in the 0:43:46.236 --> 0:43:50.876 storytelling process. I always have a blackboard in my office 0:43:50.916 --> 0:43:53.276 and I at the very beginning of this, when we 0:43:53.356 --> 0:43:55.276 started to see what we had, I wrote this like 0:43:55.356 --> 0:44:01.316 mnemonic device. I said, smitwit knows, And that stood for 0:44:01.436 --> 0:44:03.756 how do we not make the saddest movie in the 0:44:03.796 --> 0:44:06.956 world that no one ever sees? And it was a 0:44:06.956 --> 0:44:09.476 real concern because you know, you're dealing with this very 0:44:09.556 --> 0:44:12.036 dark material. So we knew it had to have a 0:44:12.156 --> 0:44:15.556 very compelling narrative. It needed to have you know, we 0:44:15.636 --> 0:44:17.756 need to have a story. And that's like, you know, 0:44:17.756 --> 0:44:19.916 you got to keep telling yourself, what is the story? 0:44:20.476 --> 0:44:25.156 So you only have enough room for this archival material, Yeah, 0:44:25.236 --> 0:44:26.876 you do as much as you can. And also some 0:44:26.916 --> 0:44:30.516 of those people, you know, it's kind of a deprived economy, 0:44:30.796 --> 0:44:32.996 and a lot of these families of people who are 0:44:32.996 --> 0:44:36.556 incarcerated just you know, they don't have like an extra 0:44:36.636 --> 0:44:38.396 room in their house where they have all the photo 0:44:38.476 --> 0:44:41.556 albums or they have a milimeter video or whatever. 0:44:41.756 --> 0:44:44.596 Yeah, I was thinking, and it's not a critesis of 0:44:44.596 --> 0:44:47.076 it all. I'm marveling about how you made a compelling 0:44:47.156 --> 0:44:51.076 story where I cared about the protagonists even though I 0:44:51.156 --> 0:44:54.236 knew so little about them. That's the puzzle, So I 0:44:54.316 --> 0:44:58.996 came away. So your main character is Stephen Davis, white guy. 0:45:00.436 --> 0:45:03.116 Seems like a very poor family, and we briefly learned 0:45:03.156 --> 0:45:06.196 what his mom tells us in one sentence, why is 0:45:06.276 --> 0:45:11.436 in prison? That's all we get. We don't know when 0:45:11.476 --> 0:45:14.156 has offense occurred. We don't know what his sentence was. 0:45:14.356 --> 0:45:16.356 We don't know what his personality was, we don't know 0:45:16.396 --> 0:45:19.396 anything about him. We barely see him because he's he's 0:45:19.436 --> 0:45:24.556 dead ten minutes in right, whatever it is, and yet 0:45:25.436 --> 0:45:29.436 my concern over him and feelings for him sustain me 0:45:29.516 --> 0:45:32.676 through the entire movie. This is what I'm in. A 0:45:32.716 --> 0:45:34.756 million years, I would never have thought I could tell 0:45:34.796 --> 0:45:38.476 a story like that where my main character is someone 0:45:38.556 --> 0:45:43.316 the audience knows almost nothing about and who exits, and 0:45:43.396 --> 0:45:46.036 yet I still care an hour later. That's what I'm 0:45:46.076 --> 0:45:49.036 trying to get at. How did you do that? Well? 0:45:49.076 --> 0:45:50.956 I mean, you know, as a young storyteller, I think 0:45:50.956 --> 0:45:52.756 you're going to evolve. You know, you're going to learn 0:45:53.556 --> 0:45:56.196 more about how to tell these stories, and I'm looking 0:45:56.196 --> 0:45:59.036 forward to that. But I think, you know, a little 0:45:59.076 --> 0:46:01.916 goes a long way. We do see pictures of him 0:46:02.436 --> 0:46:06.316 as child, and I think that's extremely powerful, you know, 0:46:06.356 --> 0:46:09.916 when you see somebody who you've been trained to believe 0:46:10.076 --> 0:46:13.756 is going to be a hardened, terrible criminal, but we 0:46:13.876 --> 0:46:16.116 sort of know really what he was was a drug addict. 0:46:16.716 --> 0:46:20.596 And now you see a picture of this of this 0:46:21.116 --> 0:46:24.476 young man, you know, with his hair shorn and his 0:46:24.596 --> 0:46:31.236 face pale, and wearing a jumpsuit that's exactly what everybody 0:46:31.236 --> 0:46:35.356 else in the prison wears, and he becomes totally homogenized 0:46:35.396 --> 0:46:38.716 and dehumanized. And then you get to see a photograph 0:46:38.796 --> 0:46:43.076 of him as a child, you know, with a smile 0:46:43.236 --> 0:46:46.596 and just seeing pride on his face, or him starting 0:46:46.596 --> 0:46:49.476 to play little League or something like that, and then 0:46:49.516 --> 0:46:52.836 you're just reminded that I have somebody in my family 0:46:52.836 --> 0:46:55.516 who is playing little league and then ten years later 0:46:55.596 --> 0:46:58.236 was a drug addict, you know, was playing little league, 0:46:58.276 --> 0:47:00.756 and ten years later was an alcoholic and his life 0:47:00.836 --> 0:47:03.316 is falling apart. So you make a connection to those 0:47:03.356 --> 0:47:08.076 people that goes beyond whatever their you know, their crime was. 0:47:08.316 --> 0:47:10.756 But it's you bring up an interesting point that I've 0:47:10.796 --> 0:47:16.676 not talked about regarding this film, which was that there 0:47:16.676 --> 0:47:19.436 were people who came to test screenings of the film 0:47:19.516 --> 0:47:26.036 and literally said the following, I'm uncomfortable if I don't 0:47:26.076 --> 0:47:29.636 know what crime they committed. So could you have some 0:47:29.796 --> 0:47:31.996 kind of a device where as soon as I see 0:47:32.036 --> 0:47:36.156 somebody on screen, there's some kind of a chiron or 0:47:36.196 --> 0:47:39.836 a little designator on the bottom that says murder one, 0:47:40.076 --> 0:47:44.116 or that says burglary, or that says you know. And 0:47:44.196 --> 0:47:47.556 I was so instructive to hear somebody say that, right, 0:47:48.076 --> 0:47:50.356 And of course you could have the debate with them, 0:47:50.396 --> 0:47:52.876 or you could say, so you're saying that it's okay 0:47:53.196 --> 0:47:56.356 for prison guard to beat somebody to death, you're going 0:47:56.436 --> 0:47:58.916 to make the evaluation of whether that's reasonable or not 0:47:59.116 --> 0:48:01.836 based on whether they had a burglary charge or an 0:48:01.876 --> 0:48:05.196 aggravated burglary charge. And then they always said, well, no, no, 0:48:05.076 --> 0:48:07.036 of course, of course, of course, of course. But they're 0:48:07.076 --> 0:48:12.476 revealing that they're begandized. They're revealing that like nobody, everybody 0:48:12.516 --> 0:48:15.876 wants safety. Everybody wants their family to be safe. Everybody doesn't, 0:48:15.916 --> 0:48:18.796 you know, people don't want people to rob their store 0:48:18.916 --> 0:48:24.956 or whatever. But this idea that anything goes if somebody 0:48:25.036 --> 0:48:31.356 is a criminal. We're just going to suspend our humanity. 0:48:31.396 --> 0:48:33.876 We're going to suspend right. And that's the basic idea 0:48:33.876 --> 0:48:36.996 of sort of the constitution is you have this absolutely 0:48:37.076 --> 0:48:42.236 minimal level. You're not supposed to be treated to a 0:48:42.596 --> 0:48:45.956 cruel and unusual punishment, which is already kind of a 0:48:45.996 --> 0:48:47.836 you know, I know it when I see it kind 0:48:47.836 --> 0:48:52.956 of situation. You know, but well, if they committed a crime, 0:48:53.916 --> 0:48:56.756 then maybe they should just be locked up forever. You know, 0:48:56.876 --> 0:48:58.916 doesn't make sense for you know, there are plenty of 0:48:58.916 --> 0:49:01.476 countries where the maximum sentence for any crime is ten years, 0:49:01.476 --> 0:49:03.836 because you say, somebody commits a crime wh they're nineteen 0:49:03.916 --> 0:49:08.636 years old, completely different human being. Eleven years, twelve years later, 0:49:09.636 --> 0:49:14.156 you know, maybe ten years is enough to reset that 0:49:14.236 --> 0:49:16.876 person and try to bring them back into civilization. And 0:49:16.956 --> 0:49:19.756 yet Alabama has these three strikes laws that are put 0:49:19.876 --> 0:49:22.436 locking people up for life without parole. 0:49:23.276 --> 0:49:25.916 But this is a really interesting point which I think 0:49:26.036 --> 0:49:27.716 is worth dwelling on a little bit, which is that 0:49:29.476 --> 0:49:33.876 as storytellers, so the urge when the people in the 0:49:33.876 --> 0:49:35.836 screening said I want to know what crime they committed? 0:49:37.036 --> 0:49:41.476 That that was my urge when I watched it. It's 0:49:41.516 --> 0:49:43.316 a natural human urge to want to know as much 0:49:43.356 --> 0:49:49.196 as possible about the person whose world you're And what 0:49:49.236 --> 0:49:51.476 we don't think about is what are we using that 0:49:51.556 --> 0:49:55.436 information for? And how will that kind of information at 0:49:55.476 --> 0:49:58.676 the margin affect the quality of our moral judgments? And 0:49:58.716 --> 0:50:02.196 what you're saying is the value of that incremental information 0:50:02.236 --> 0:50:07.436 about these characters reduces the quality of our moral judgment. 0:50:07.516 --> 0:50:10.236 It actually contributes to pros. I see the phenomenon you 0:50:10.236 --> 0:50:15.196 were trying to confront, which is, people, regardless of who 0:50:15.196 --> 0:50:20.956 they are, deserve a certain level of respect and decency 0:50:20.956 --> 0:50:23.516 in the way we treat them. Right, there was there 0:50:23.596 --> 0:50:25.796 was an obligation here on the part of the The 0:50:26.196 --> 0:50:30.156 titration and the limitation of information given by the storyteller 0:50:30.516 --> 0:50:34.356 is a hugely consequential question. It's not just a storytelling question. 0:50:34.396 --> 0:50:37.236 It's a moral question. It's what do you want people 0:50:37.716 --> 0:50:41.036 to take home from this story? Right in a profound way, 0:50:41.116 --> 0:50:44.316 and like, so you shouldn't now, I agree with you. 0:50:45.076 --> 0:50:46.676 I had that impulse, and then I thought about it 0:50:46.676 --> 0:50:50.516 and I was like, no, I don't need to know. 0:50:50.636 --> 0:50:52.956 It is not relevant what Stephen Davis was in for. 0:50:53.716 --> 0:50:58.036 It's like it shouldn't matter, or it shouldn't matter with. 0:50:58.116 --> 0:50:59.316 Robert Robert Earl. 0:50:59.476 --> 0:51:01.756 Robert Earl or who is the one who had the 0:51:01.836 --> 0:51:02.876 rat swimming in the toilet? 0:51:03.116 --> 0:51:05.676 Robert Robert Earl. Yeah, like Robert Earl's crime, I mean 0:51:05.796 --> 0:51:08.876 Robert Earl's crime. Yeah, there's a guy and sort of 0:51:09.156 --> 0:51:10.876 speeder that there was a guy trying to run him 0:51:10.876 --> 0:51:13.996 over with a car and he was nineteen and he 0:51:14.076 --> 0:51:16.596 had a gun, which everybody in Alabama has a gun, 0:51:16.956 --> 0:51:19.556 and he shot the guy and he prevented him from 0:51:19.596 --> 0:51:22.356 running him over. In today's world, you know, that's like. 0:51:22.636 --> 0:51:23.436 Stand your ground. 0:51:23.596 --> 0:51:26.836 Yeah, right, So there's no question that would have been 0:51:26.836 --> 0:51:29.556 a self defense case, but for the fact that the 0:51:29.596 --> 0:51:33.716 police went to incredible lengths to try to tie him 0:51:33.716 --> 0:51:39.716 into an earlier altercation that night because nobody died in 0:51:39.796 --> 0:51:41.476 but they were sort of trying to say, well, he 0:51:41.516 --> 0:51:44.076 was involved in a robbery, which he actually wasn't involved in, 0:51:45.116 --> 0:51:48.596 because that enables you to give him a life sentence 0:51:48.716 --> 0:51:52.556 because you can say it's capital murder. So I guess 0:51:52.556 --> 0:51:59.516 our you know, kind of theory going in was maybe 0:51:59.556 --> 0:52:01.156 we don't need to talk about the crimes at all, 0:52:01.356 --> 0:52:05.876 and then we realized that there are certain crimes, right 0:52:05.956 --> 0:52:08.276 and Steve Marshall of the world will want you to 0:52:08.316 --> 0:52:10.756 assume that everybody in there for this right. They say, oh, 0:52:11.316 --> 0:52:13.956 but we've already let out all the non violent criminals. 0:52:14.276 --> 0:52:16.956 That sounds like totally reasonable. Well, yeah, I guess people 0:52:16.956 --> 0:52:19.636 that are non violent should be led out, right. But 0:52:19.916 --> 0:52:21.916 in Alabama, I think in the rest of the country, 0:52:22.356 --> 0:52:24.436 maybe we have like maybe in the federal system, we 0:52:24.476 --> 0:52:27.236 have like four crimes that are considered violent, and in 0:52:27.316 --> 0:52:29.916 Alabama it used to be you know, ten, and then 0:52:29.916 --> 0:52:31.796 it was twenty, and then it was thirty, and now 0:52:31.796 --> 0:52:36.636 it's forty four crimes and they include entering an unoccupied 0:52:36.636 --> 0:52:40.796 building that's considered a violent crime. So by redefining what 0:52:40.876 --> 0:52:42.716 a violent crime is, you get more and more and 0:52:42.756 --> 0:52:44.276 more people, and then you get to stand in front 0:52:44.276 --> 0:52:45.796 of a crowd and say, we've let out all the 0:52:46.956 --> 0:52:50.356 good ones. But Robert Earl, I guess we concluded that 0:52:50.436 --> 0:52:53.916 we had to tell something about some of the crimes 0:52:53.956 --> 0:52:56.356 because we didn't want We've felt like if the audience 0:52:56.436 --> 0:52:58.876 was going to really have to fall in love with 0:52:59.796 --> 0:53:02.116 Robert Earl, which is not hard to do because man's 0:53:02.156 --> 0:53:10.036 a genius and he's an unbelievable human being. Then we 0:53:10.076 --> 0:53:13.236 would have to let people know that he's not Jeffrey Dahmer. 0:53:14.236 --> 0:53:16.636 You know that he's not somebody who's like a serial 0:53:16.796 --> 0:53:20.156 killer or a child killer. And the percentage of people 0:53:20.196 --> 0:53:21.876 that are in prison who are a serial killers or 0:53:21.956 --> 0:53:25.796 child kill is minuscule. But you if you're gonna give 0:53:25.796 --> 0:53:29.396 the audience the desire to fall in love with somebody, 0:53:29.636 --> 0:53:34.316 they're gonna hold back their empathy unless you can just 0:53:34.356 --> 0:53:38.076 give them a little bit of a pass, a little 0:53:38.116 --> 0:53:40.916 bit of a feeling like this is this is not 0:53:41.036 --> 0:53:43.596 one of those people that's just going to be released 0:53:43.596 --> 0:53:46.756 and then immediately go and murder somebody or put somebody 0:53:46.796 --> 0:53:47.796 in front of a bus. 0:53:49.796 --> 0:54:03.996 We'll be right back. What's the stage in the process 0:54:03.996 --> 0:54:06.636 where you're happiest. 0:54:06.996 --> 0:54:12.956 It's a really good question, and I think it it's 0:54:12.956 --> 0:54:15.796 a question you have to ask in a kind of 0:54:16.836 --> 0:54:22.876 longitudinal way because you're having the most fun in the 0:54:22.996 --> 0:54:27.596 very beginning because it's all new, and then you're halfway 0:54:27.636 --> 0:54:29.396 through it and it's like the dark Knight of the 0:54:29.396 --> 0:54:31.996 soul and you think it's a disaster, and then you 0:54:32.036 --> 0:54:34.236 look back and you think, oh my god, you know 0:54:34.356 --> 0:54:37.236 that was the time. And then you get further along 0:54:37.276 --> 0:54:39.516 and you solve a problem, and then that's the time. 0:54:39.876 --> 0:54:41.116 And then you get to the end of the whole 0:54:41.116 --> 0:54:42.756 thing you look back and that's a difference. So I 0:54:42.756 --> 0:54:44.836 guess it's the question, you know, if you ask the 0:54:44.916 --> 0:54:46.316 question over time, did you. 0:54:46.236 --> 0:54:49.116 Have a dark Knight of the soul moment with this documentary? 0:54:49.476 --> 0:54:53.396 It lasted like seven years, so you get by definition, 0:54:53.676 --> 0:54:54.956 But it wasn't so much. 0:54:54.996 --> 0:54:57.196 I mean, there were plenty of timeshe we thought, I 0:54:57.316 --> 0:55:00.236 don't know whether this is going to work, and you 0:55:00.276 --> 0:55:04.436 go to the best advisors you have and you show 0:55:04.516 --> 0:55:07.396 material and you just watch and see how people react, 0:55:08.076 --> 0:55:10.996 and then you do we do these other things, like 0:55:11.076 --> 0:55:14.676 we'll do like a session with a whiteboard, and the 0:55:14.756 --> 0:55:17.076 whole team of people that are working on the film 0:55:18.476 --> 0:55:24.116 will say, Okay, what are the five things that that 0:55:24.236 --> 0:55:26.876 I feel like if I if these aren't in the movie, 0:55:27.196 --> 0:55:30.276 we've made a terrible mistake. And then you end up 0:55:30.316 --> 0:55:33.636 with thirty five things on the board and then you think, 0:55:33.676 --> 0:55:35.236 all right, well, what is this telling me? You just 0:55:35.236 --> 0:55:37.076 try to look at it a million different ways. You know, 0:55:37.116 --> 0:55:39.596 you kind of like, you know, moving around. 0:55:39.356 --> 0:55:43.316 You're deep dark depression on something. You just call me 0:55:43.356 --> 0:55:45.956 because if you just you. I'd never show me if 0:55:45.956 --> 0:55:48.836 you just called me and said, Malcolm, I have cell 0:55:48.836 --> 0:55:51.796 phone video footage from inside Alabama, the Alabama prison system. 0:55:51.796 --> 0:55:53.636 I have a lot of it. But I don't think 0:55:53.636 --> 0:55:56.076 it's going to work. I would have said it's going 0:55:56.156 --> 0:55:56.476 to work. 0:55:56.716 --> 0:55:56.916 Good. 0:55:56.996 --> 0:55:59.396 It's like there's no way for it not to work. 0:56:00.756 --> 0:56:05.356 I think the correct answer. It really is a I mean, 0:56:05.396 --> 0:56:09.676 I really I realized I had been gushing, but it's 0:56:09.716 --> 0:56:13.196 it is. It is an extraordinary piece of work. And 0:56:13.316 --> 0:56:18.316 I'm both complimenting you but also complimenting the prisoners who 0:56:18.836 --> 0:56:21.996 who found a way to get their story out in 0:56:22.036 --> 0:56:26.116 the world. Right there. You're collaborators on this and the 0:56:26.196 --> 0:56:31.516 result is something that is quite unlike any other. Like 0:56:31.556 --> 0:56:34.316 I said, it solves the documentary problem for me. You 0:56:34.716 --> 0:56:39.076 solved it like there's no you're not reconstructing anything. 0:56:39.556 --> 0:56:43.836 It's there's this great moment in Ibsen, you know, in 0:56:44.276 --> 0:56:49.396 a Master Builder, and there's this character named Hilda who 0:56:49.476 --> 0:56:52.636 works with this architect, and the architect is this very 0:56:52.676 --> 0:56:56.316 grand fellow that is building big buildings and all that stuff, 0:56:56.676 --> 0:57:00.996 and the and then you see her saying at the 0:57:01.076 --> 0:57:03.916 end of it, her last line as she says the 0:57:03.916 --> 0:57:07.876 master builder, my master builder, and a lot of people 0:57:07.956 --> 0:57:11.716 have have have comment about that over the years and 0:57:11.756 --> 0:57:14.196 written about it that it's really that Hilda at that 0:57:14.316 --> 0:57:21.236 time in history, like a young brilliant woman, needed another 0:57:21.356 --> 0:57:23.996 person who thought that they were a great builder. But 0:57:24.156 --> 0:57:26.876 really it was her ideas that were coming through. And 0:57:26.956 --> 0:57:30.956 I do feel that way here that they're that the 0:57:31.036 --> 0:57:35.196 men knew what they needed. It's not I don't want 0:57:35.196 --> 0:57:37.556 to act like it's working. I mean, Alabama is still 0:57:37.596 --> 0:57:41.916 this is still an urgent problem. Alabama is still killing 0:57:41.956 --> 0:57:45.156 people in its custody all the time. I think people 0:57:45.396 --> 0:57:47.396 right now are dying at the rate of around one 0:57:47.436 --> 0:57:50.316 a day, and that's just in one system. We have 0:57:50.356 --> 0:57:54.436 two million people incarcerated around the country. But I do 0:57:54.516 --> 0:57:57.156 get the feeling that, you know, while we're walking around 0:57:57.156 --> 0:58:02.996 thinking we're making a film, the men inside are driven 0:58:03.156 --> 0:58:07.036 by their own brilliance, their own survival instinct, are saying, 0:58:07.076 --> 0:58:10.516 we need to get this material in front of the public. 0:58:11.036 --> 0:58:13.876 We're not a position to do it. Let's let's see 0:58:13.876 --> 0:58:16.316 if this collaboration can work. And that I think is 0:58:16.316 --> 0:58:20.236 the thing I feel the most grateful for is that 0:58:20.356 --> 0:58:23.356 we were able to deliver that and the men in 0:58:23.396 --> 0:58:26.556 the film have seen the film, you know, because we 0:58:26.636 --> 0:58:30.236 showed it to them on cell phones, and when we 0:58:30.236 --> 0:58:33.756 were done, I think they were very emotional seeing it. 0:58:33.836 --> 0:58:35.876 I think we you know, we spent so much time 0:58:35.916 --> 0:58:38.716 and showed it to them talk to them about what 0:58:38.756 --> 0:58:41.476 we were making. Because it's such a responsibility to say, 0:58:41.916 --> 0:58:45.396 you know, hey, you guys, you've been running a non violent, 0:58:46.716 --> 0:58:50.876 organized protest movement that includes work stoppages and hunger strikes, 0:58:51.316 --> 0:58:53.676 and somehow we're going to characterize that, and we're going 0:58:53.676 --> 0:58:55.316 to put that on television or we're going to put 0:58:55.356 --> 0:58:59.876 that in movie theaters. But it's really their story. So 0:59:00.676 --> 0:59:02.796 you have to be in constant dialogue with them about 0:59:02.796 --> 0:59:05.756 what that is, including now, you know, telling them what 0:59:05.796 --> 0:59:07.996 we're doing and what we're thinking and trying to you know, 0:59:08.036 --> 0:59:12.236 we created this sort of whistleblower defense committee of really 0:59:12.356 --> 0:59:15.596 smart lawyers because we knew that these men have been 0:59:15.636 --> 0:59:19.716 retaliated against time after time after time, and so they 0:59:19.836 --> 0:59:21.916 jump in and they'll go and do wellness checks on 0:59:21.956 --> 0:59:24.956 the men. You're in a relationship with them forever. You know. 0:59:24.996 --> 0:59:27.156 It's a little different, right because you're I mean, maybe 0:59:27.156 --> 0:59:29.716 you'll choose to go and have coffee with Steve Marshall 0:59:29.716 --> 0:59:32.196 once a week if you really enjoy his company. But 0:59:32.516 --> 0:59:33.836 you know, most of the people that are in your 0:59:33.876 --> 0:59:37.756 film are kind of already you know, you're not going 0:59:37.796 --> 0:59:40.996 back to Alabama much and you're not going to go 0:59:41.076 --> 0:59:44.076 talk to the to the people that are in the story. 0:59:44.116 --> 0:59:46.916 But these guys are like they're in my life. Happily, 0:59:46.956 --> 0:59:48.996 I feel very lucky that they're in my life, in 0:59:49.076 --> 0:59:49.796 Charlotte's life. 0:59:50.196 --> 0:59:54.236 Yeah, yeah, Andrew, we are we are out of time. 0:59:54.916 --> 0:59:57.196 I want to thank you very much both for coming 0:59:57.236 --> 1:00:00.676 to on AirFest and singing with me, and also for 1:00:00.756 --> 1:00:04.076 the movie which has you know, as the best art does, 1:00:04.116 --> 1:00:06.756 has left America at a little better off than it 1:00:06.796 --> 1:00:07.276 was before. 1:00:07.956 --> 1:00:09.796 Thank you so much, really, appre Shadow. 1:00:22.116 --> 1:00:25.596 Revision's History is produced by Lucy Sullivan, Bend, daph Haffrey, 1:00:25.796 --> 1:00:29.556 and Nina Bird Lawrence. Our editor is Karen Chakerji. Our 1:00:29.636 --> 1:00:33.356 executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence. 1:00:33.636 --> 1:00:37.916 Original music by Luis Kira, Mixing and mastering by Jake Krsky. 1:00:38.796 --> 1:00:39.716 I'm Malcolm Glabla.