1
00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,396
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello, Hello revisionist history listeners. As many of you

2
00:00:23,436 --> 00:00:25,996
Speaker 1: will know, we did a seven part series last fall

3
00:00:26,116 --> 00:00:28,836
Speaker 1: called The Alabama Murders, the story of the death of

4
00:00:28,836 --> 00:00:31,996
Speaker 1: a preacher's wife in the shoals in northwestern Alabama thirty

5
00:00:32,036 --> 00:00:35,356
Speaker 1: five years ago and the tragic reverberations of that case.

6
00:00:35,956 --> 00:00:38,196
Speaker 1: I honestly think it's one of the best things we've

7
00:00:38,196 --> 00:00:41,876
Speaker 1: ever done on revisionist history. And almost the exact time

8
00:00:41,956 --> 00:00:46,556
Speaker 1: that our series dropped, HBO aired a brilliant documentary called

9
00:00:46,916 --> 00:00:51,036
Speaker 1: The Alabama Solution. The Revisionist History series was about the

10
00:00:51,036 --> 00:00:54,556
Speaker 1: death penalty in Alabama. The Alabama Solution was about the

11
00:00:54,596 --> 00:00:56,116
Speaker 1: prison system in Alabama.

12
00:00:57,556 --> 00:00:59,956
Speaker 2: We had record numbers of people leaving out of here

13
00:01:00,036 --> 00:01:02,356
Speaker 2: body bays. They don't want to put a biet what's

14
00:01:02,396 --> 00:01:03,116
Speaker 2: really going on?

15
00:01:03,116 --> 00:01:05,596
Speaker 3: Only at that How can a journalists go into a

16
00:01:05,676 --> 00:01:07,996
Speaker 3: war zone but can't go into a prison In the

17
00:01:08,116 --> 00:01:08,676
Speaker 3: United States?

18
00:01:10,276 --> 00:01:11,596
Speaker 1: The state is settling one.

19
00:01:11,516 --> 00:01:14,756
Speaker 4: Lawsuit after another. There's no consequences for their actions.

20
00:01:15,196 --> 00:01:18,196
Speaker 3: There's an argument that there is some systemic problem within

21
00:01:18,276 --> 00:01:20,636
Speaker 3: all of our facilities, and I, whileheartedly.

22
00:01:20,116 --> 00:01:28,476
Speaker 1: Disagree with that, the two projects fit together almost perfectly.

23
00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:31,916
Speaker 1: So I called up the director of the documentary Andrew

24
00:01:31,996 --> 00:01:34,436
Speaker 1: Jireki and said, do you want to sit down for

25
00:01:34,476 --> 00:01:37,556
Speaker 1: a conversation and he said yes, and so we got

26
00:01:37,556 --> 00:01:40,716
Speaker 1: together at on AirFest in Brooklyn for a long talk

27
00:01:40,716 --> 00:01:44,116
Speaker 1: about Alabama and filmmaking and all kinds of other things.

28
00:01:44,956 --> 00:01:47,796
Speaker 1: If the name Andrew Jireki seems familiar to you, it's

29
00:01:47,836 --> 00:01:51,116
Speaker 1: because he's one of the pre eminent documentarians of our time.

30
00:01:51,396 --> 00:01:55,836
Speaker 1: He did Capturing the Freedman's The Jinks. A brilliant, brilliant guy.

31
00:01:56,476 --> 00:02:02,916
Speaker 1: Here's a conversation, Andrew, Welcome to Brooklyn. Thank you, thank

32
00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:07,316
Speaker 1: you for doing this. The reason you and I are

33
00:02:07,316 --> 00:02:13,196
Speaker 1: on stage is that in the fall, we released a

34
00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:16,316
Speaker 1: seven part series on Revision's History called The Alabama Murders,

35
00:02:16,476 --> 00:02:19,196
Speaker 1: and almost at exactly the same time, you released a

36
00:02:19,196 --> 00:02:23,396
Speaker 1: documentary on HBO called The Alabama Solution. Our series was

37
00:02:23,436 --> 00:02:27,036
Speaker 1: about a capital punishment case. Your series was about the

38
00:02:27,076 --> 00:02:30,996
Speaker 1: Alabama prison system. And it was this marvelous instance of

39
00:02:31,756 --> 00:02:36,476
Speaker 1: two works that overlapped but didn't overlap. And I texted

40
00:02:36,516 --> 00:02:39,316
Speaker 1: you and said we should have a conversation, and here

41
00:02:39,316 --> 00:02:44,596
Speaker 1: we are, and I found your documentary extraordinary, and I

42
00:02:45,316 --> 00:02:48,116
Speaker 1: was just telling you backstage, I'm not someone who listens

43
00:02:48,156 --> 00:02:52,396
Speaker 1: to watches love documentaries. But I have seen all of yours,

44
00:02:53,436 --> 00:02:57,196
Speaker 1: Captain of Freedman's JINX. This is the best in my mind.

45
00:02:57,436 --> 00:02:57,796
Speaker 4: Thank you.

46
00:02:57,916 --> 00:03:00,116
Speaker 1: And I was curious, I would like you to start

47
00:03:00,996 --> 00:03:03,076
Speaker 1: tell us how you came to do a story about

48
00:03:03,116 --> 00:03:05,996
Speaker 1: the Alabama prison system, because I suspect it's not a

49
00:03:06,036 --> 00:03:07,676
Speaker 1: straight line. You didn't sit down one day and say

50
00:03:07,676 --> 00:03:09,636
Speaker 1: I want to do a story about the Alabama the system.

51
00:03:10,676 --> 00:03:15,116
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think nothing's a straight line, certainly for me.

52
00:03:15,516 --> 00:03:20,516
Speaker 4: And I was noticing also your podcast around that same

53
00:03:20,556 --> 00:03:23,196
Speaker 4: time and then and I was sort of I was

54
00:03:23,276 --> 00:03:25,756
Speaker 4: kind of holding back because I thought, is this going

55
00:03:25,796 --> 00:03:29,236
Speaker 4: to influence what we're working on? You know, just because

56
00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:30,996
Speaker 4: it's hard, like when you're making one thing and then

57
00:03:31,036 --> 00:03:33,196
Speaker 4: somebody else does something else, and especially if it's a

58
00:03:33,196 --> 00:03:36,596
Speaker 4: smart person, You're like, what if they do this better?

59
00:03:36,676 --> 00:03:38,116
Speaker 4: Or what do they have an idea? And then I'm

60
00:03:38,196 --> 00:03:40,356
Speaker 4: drawn to that idea or something like that. But I

61
00:03:40,436 --> 00:03:43,236
Speaker 4: did get to listen to it, and it's it's really

62
00:03:43,396 --> 00:03:47,116
Speaker 4: superb and and and and extremely familiar to me. So

63
00:03:47,676 --> 00:03:50,916
Speaker 4: I you know, when I was making Capturing the Freedman's

64
00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:55,236
Speaker 4: I had reason to go into Dana Mora correctional facility

65
00:03:55,236 --> 00:03:57,996
Speaker 4: in Upstate New York, and I found that the visit

66
00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:03,276
Speaker 4: was so punishing, just as a visitor, everything about it

67
00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:08,956
Speaker 4: was so difficult and brutal. And then when I saw

68
00:04:10,036 --> 00:04:12,796
Speaker 4: the waiting room and I saw how people were being

69
00:04:12,836 --> 00:04:15,116
Speaker 4: treated there, I just thought, I think I need to

70
00:04:15,156 --> 00:04:17,596
Speaker 4: get deeper into this prison. And I wasn't able to

71
00:04:17,596 --> 00:04:19,476
Speaker 4: do that. But then over the years, I just visited

72
00:04:19,516 --> 00:04:23,036
Speaker 4: a lot of prisons and I was really amazed at

73
00:04:23,036 --> 00:04:28,756
Speaker 4: how poorly we do this. But I never really understood

74
00:04:28,756 --> 00:04:31,636
Speaker 4: the Alabama system because it's so secretive. I mean, I

75
00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:33,956
Speaker 4: would say all prisons in the US are sort of

76
00:04:33,996 --> 00:04:37,156
Speaker 4: treated like black sites. And you know, you drive down

77
00:04:37,196 --> 00:04:39,756
Speaker 4: the highway and you see a little metal sign that

78
00:04:39,796 --> 00:04:44,036
Speaker 4: says XYZ correctional facility in Upstate New York or someplace,

79
00:04:44,556 --> 00:04:47,196
Speaker 4: and you think, well, I probably don't need to drive

80
00:04:47,276 --> 00:04:51,036
Speaker 4: down there. If anything really bad's happening, you know, somebody

81
00:04:51,036 --> 00:04:54,796
Speaker 4: will tell me about it. But that presupposes that you

82
00:04:55,396 --> 00:04:57,396
Speaker 4: will be able to read it in a paper, you

83
00:04:57,436 --> 00:05:00,396
Speaker 4: will be able to see a television show that explains it.

84
00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:03,156
Speaker 4: And that's not the case because the press is really

85
00:05:03,196 --> 00:05:04,716
Speaker 4: not allowed to visit prisons.

86
00:05:04,836 --> 00:05:08,116
Speaker 1: There's a great line from one of your one of

87
00:05:08,156 --> 00:05:10,836
Speaker 1: your character is in your documentary, one of the prisoners

88
00:05:10,836 --> 00:05:14,036
Speaker 1: who says, isn't it crazy that if you're a journalist,

89
00:05:14,076 --> 00:05:16,676
Speaker 1: you can go to a war zone, but you can't

90
00:05:16,716 --> 00:05:18,476
Speaker 1: go to a prison in your own country?

91
00:05:18,596 --> 00:05:22,636
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, you can visit a war zone and

92
00:05:22,676 --> 00:05:24,356
Speaker 4: you can't go to a prison in the United States

93
00:05:24,356 --> 00:05:29,836
Speaker 4: of America. And so I was always curious and then

94
00:05:31,636 --> 00:05:33,836
Speaker 4: didn't think I would ever get a chance to do it.

95
00:05:34,076 --> 00:05:37,236
Speaker 4: And then oddly, my daughter, who was like fourteen, she

96
00:05:37,276 --> 00:05:39,836
Speaker 4: went to Dalton, and at Dalton they had a really

97
00:05:39,876 --> 00:05:42,716
Speaker 4: good speaker program and they had brought in a guy

98
00:05:42,756 --> 00:05:46,636
Speaker 4: named Anthony ray Hinton who had been wrongfully convicted in

99
00:05:46,876 --> 00:05:49,716
Speaker 4: Alabama and had been in this prison system for like

100
00:05:49,756 --> 00:05:52,636
Speaker 4: thirty years. And she said, you know, I think you

101
00:05:52,636 --> 00:05:55,036
Speaker 4: should read this book with me because I think, you know,

102
00:05:55,076 --> 00:05:57,076
Speaker 4: you're interested in this stuff. And then we read the

103
00:05:57,076 --> 00:06:00,276
Speaker 4: book together and we just sort of spontaneously decided to

104
00:06:00,316 --> 00:06:03,076
Speaker 4: take a road trip to Montgomery. We went to Montgomery,

105
00:06:03,076 --> 00:06:08,236
Speaker 4: we didn't know anybody. We almost accidentally met a man

106
00:06:08,276 --> 00:06:10,356
Speaker 4: who is almost eighty years old who was the first

107
00:06:10,356 --> 00:06:13,796
Speaker 4: black prison chaplain in the state of Alabama, appointed by

108
00:06:13,876 --> 00:06:18,436
Speaker 4: George Wallace. I think he was like George Wallace's one

109
00:06:18,516 --> 00:06:24,196
Speaker 4: black friend, because he had to have one. And so

110
00:06:25,476 --> 00:06:27,356
Speaker 4: I asked him to have dinner with us. So we

111
00:06:27,396 --> 00:06:30,396
Speaker 4: sat and had dinner, and I started asking him questions

112
00:06:30,396 --> 00:06:33,796
Speaker 4: and he was kind of reluctant to tell me too much.

113
00:06:33,876 --> 00:06:35,556
Speaker 4: But I could also tell he had a lot of

114
00:06:35,596 --> 00:06:37,836
Speaker 4: pain because he goes into these prisons all the time,

115
00:06:37,916 --> 00:06:40,356
Speaker 4: so he knows what's happening in the prisons. But he's

116
00:06:40,396 --> 00:06:43,716
Speaker 4: afraid that if he tells me too much, then I'm

117
00:06:43,756 --> 00:06:46,356
Speaker 4: going to get too nosy and then maybe he's going

118
00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:48,596
Speaker 4: to get kicked out of the prisons because we start

119
00:06:48,956 --> 00:06:50,436
Speaker 4: so but I could tell he didn't want to let

120
00:06:50,476 --> 00:06:55,036
Speaker 4: me leave either, and so we had this little standoff

121
00:06:55,076 --> 00:06:58,236
Speaker 4: for a while where I was asking questions and he said, well,

122
00:06:58,236 --> 00:07:00,036
Speaker 4: why don't you just, you know, come back and you

123
00:07:00,076 --> 00:07:02,796
Speaker 4: can see for yourself. And I said, well, I'm a filmmaker.

124
00:07:02,796 --> 00:07:05,236
Speaker 4: They're not going to let me into the Alabama prison system.

125
00:07:05,556 --> 00:07:07,196
Speaker 4: And he said, well, just come in without a camera,

126
00:07:07,276 --> 00:07:09,956
Speaker 4: just come in and volunteer and we'll give about hygiene

127
00:07:09,996 --> 00:07:14,836
Speaker 4: packages and food. And so I said, or maybe I'm

128
00:07:14,836 --> 00:07:17,076
Speaker 4: going to do that. Well, if I do come back,

129
00:07:17,116 --> 00:07:19,076
Speaker 4: what will I see? And I could tell that he

130
00:07:19,156 --> 00:07:22,036
Speaker 4: was sort of thinking about whether he wanted to say

131
00:07:22,116 --> 00:07:23,516
Speaker 4: this thing that he was going to say to me,

132
00:07:23,836 --> 00:07:25,356
Speaker 4: because he knew if he said the right thing, I

133
00:07:25,356 --> 00:07:27,236
Speaker 4: would come back, and if he didn't, maybe I wouldn't.

134
00:07:27,916 --> 00:07:31,716
Speaker 4: And he said, if you come back, I'll take you

135
00:07:32,596 --> 00:07:35,556
Speaker 4: on the death row at Holman Prison and you'll see

136
00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:41,996
Speaker 4: it's a slave ship. And that was a very important

137
00:07:42,196 --> 00:07:44,116
Speaker 4: kind of moment for me. That was seven years ago,

138
00:07:44,316 --> 00:07:46,836
Speaker 4: and I think it's the reason that line was the

139
00:07:46,876 --> 00:07:49,516
Speaker 4: reason I went back, because I just thought, well, whatever

140
00:07:49,556 --> 00:07:52,076
Speaker 4: this is, I have to see. And then I went back.

141
00:07:52,716 --> 00:07:55,036
Speaker 4: And you'll see in the film we sort of get

142
00:07:55,076 --> 00:07:58,596
Speaker 4: access until we don't. But in the course of going

143
00:07:58,596 --> 00:08:01,236
Speaker 4: into Easterling Prison, we start hearing from these men who

144
00:08:01,236 --> 00:08:05,036
Speaker 4: are saying, look this visit you're making here, I'm not

145
00:08:05,076 --> 00:08:07,556
Speaker 4: supposed to be talking to you, but this is a

146
00:08:07,596 --> 00:08:11,316
Speaker 4: curated visit, rightwing. You just what they want you to see.

147
00:08:11,676 --> 00:08:14,716
Speaker 4: But see that building over there, that's where they do

148
00:08:14,796 --> 00:08:16,916
Speaker 4: solitary confinement. There are men that men that have been

149
00:08:16,956 --> 00:08:19,196
Speaker 4: in there for five years or seven years at a time,

150
00:08:19,636 --> 00:08:22,516
Speaker 4: seeing nobody, and see that building over there is the

151
00:08:22,556 --> 00:08:26,676
Speaker 4: wide dorm. That's the behavior modification dorm, and somebody was

152
00:08:26,716 --> 00:08:30,116
Speaker 4: just killed there by guard and we just started to

153
00:08:30,156 --> 00:08:33,756
Speaker 4: understand how bad it was. And then last thing that

154
00:08:33,836 --> 00:08:36,316
Speaker 4: happened is, you know, we get kicked out, and then

155
00:08:36,876 --> 00:08:38,556
Speaker 4: we thought we didn't know how we're going to tell

156
00:08:38,556 --> 00:08:40,796
Speaker 4: the story until we discovered that there was this network

157
00:08:40,836 --> 00:08:45,916
Speaker 4: of people inside who had contraband cell phones and had

158
00:08:45,956 --> 00:08:48,916
Speaker 4: access to a charger, were borrowing a charger from a

159
00:08:49,036 --> 00:08:50,996
Speaker 4: friend and would have to put the cell phones up

160
00:08:50,996 --> 00:08:53,516
Speaker 4: when the guards came. But it was our only window

161
00:08:53,556 --> 00:08:55,076
Speaker 4: into this very secretive system.

162
00:08:55,556 --> 00:08:57,276
Speaker 1: Had anyone I want to pause on that for a

163
00:08:57,316 --> 00:09:02,356
Speaker 1: moment because one of the many remarkable the most remarkable

164
00:09:02,356 --> 00:09:05,436
Speaker 1: thing about the documentary from a technical standpoint, is that

165
00:09:05,516 --> 00:09:10,356
Speaker 1: it is largely shot in FaceTime right or in video calls.

166
00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:14,196
Speaker 1: I don't know what percentage of the movie ends up being.

167
00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:18,036
Speaker 1: Thirty percent of the movie is just the is the

168
00:09:18,396 --> 00:09:22,036
Speaker 1: prisoners facetiming with you and you had this? Has this

169
00:09:22,076 --> 00:09:23,036
Speaker 1: been done before?

170
00:09:25,356 --> 00:09:27,596
Speaker 4: I mean I don't know of it having been done before,

171
00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:33,236
Speaker 4: because it's such an unusual situation, not only because the

172
00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:36,676
Speaker 4: men had access to cell phones, but because they had

173
00:09:36,996 --> 00:09:41,876
Speaker 4: collected all this material over years that showed what was

174
00:09:41,956 --> 00:09:46,396
Speaker 4: really happening in the system and showed episodes of you know,

175
00:09:46,436 --> 00:09:49,876
Speaker 4: really shocking episodes. I mean, when I saw it, I thought,

176
00:09:50,116 --> 00:09:53,156
Speaker 4: you know, this is like watching Titkeke at follies. You're

177
00:09:53,196 --> 00:09:57,276
Speaker 4: looking at a whole segment of the population that's just

178
00:09:57,756 --> 00:10:01,996
Speaker 4: been abandoned, and not just abandoned, but also harmed. And

179
00:10:02,036 --> 00:10:04,276
Speaker 4: then we discovered that there were these men inside who

180
00:10:04,316 --> 00:10:07,276
Speaker 4: were leaders, who were really civil rights leaders, who had

181
00:10:07,276 --> 00:10:11,716
Speaker 4: been managing like a non vibe protest movement for years,

182
00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:14,316
Speaker 4: even before we got there, and so we had the

183
00:10:14,356 --> 00:10:16,916
Speaker 4: benefit of you know, it was like talking to Mandela

184
00:10:17,036 --> 00:10:19,516
Speaker 4: on Robin Island on a cell phone.

185
00:10:19,716 --> 00:10:21,196
Speaker 1: So I would to pause on this because I think

186
00:10:21,196 --> 00:10:24,596
Speaker 1: it's a really important point. And I was naive enough

187
00:10:25,236 --> 00:10:28,236
Speaker 1: about documentaries that it hadn't occurred to me before. But

188
00:10:29,116 --> 00:10:33,716
Speaker 1: with the notion that you were the narrative engine of

189
00:10:33,756 --> 00:10:38,876
Speaker 1: this documentary is the videos being recorded by the prisoners

190
00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:42,156
Speaker 1: themselves in real time and being sent to you, And

191
00:10:42,236 --> 00:10:45,956
Speaker 1: with that you overcome what has always been the biggest

192
00:10:45,996 --> 00:10:49,796
Speaker 1: problem with documentaries, right which is you're telling a story

193
00:10:49,836 --> 00:10:53,076
Speaker 1: after the fact, and any almost always in documentaries, any

194
00:10:53,156 --> 00:10:57,596
Speaker 1: video that you're capturing, unless you get some archival talking

195
00:10:57,596 --> 00:11:00,556
Speaker 1: to people as they reconstruct something that happened far away

196
00:11:00,556 --> 00:11:05,036
Speaker 1: and long ago. This all of that, our artificiality is

197
00:11:05,116 --> 00:11:09,716
Speaker 1: gone from Alabama solution. You're right there to prison with

198
00:11:09,796 --> 00:11:10,276
Speaker 1: these guys.

199
00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:15,116
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it was, it was. It was an

200
00:11:15,316 --> 00:11:21,316
Speaker 4: enormously eye opening and I would say violent experience to

201
00:11:21,516 --> 00:11:27,156
Speaker 4: be drawn into that and to understand that the only

202
00:11:27,196 --> 00:11:29,476
Speaker 4: way that these people can get away with treating human

203
00:11:29,516 --> 00:11:32,076
Speaker 4: beings this way is if it's in darkness. You know,

204
00:11:32,116 --> 00:11:34,876
Speaker 4: you can't you can't do this if the public knows

205
00:11:34,876 --> 00:11:38,756
Speaker 4: that you're doing it, even even a jaded public in

206
00:11:38,836 --> 00:11:42,996
Speaker 4: Alabama who you know, as you know very well, Alabama

207
00:11:43,036 --> 00:11:48,436
Speaker 4: is sort of inured to certain kinds of indignities, and

208
00:11:48,516 --> 00:11:53,156
Speaker 4: you know, they're very propagandized group. You know, it's sort

209
00:11:53,196 --> 00:11:56,756
Speaker 4: of very tough on crime, and the politicians really like

210
00:11:56,876 --> 00:12:00,276
Speaker 4: weaponize the crime victims to just have this constant narrative.

211
00:12:00,276 --> 00:12:03,476
Speaker 4: It's like watching cops twenty four hours a day. It's

212
00:12:03,636 --> 00:12:07,716
Speaker 4: just an advertisement for poor people are crazy and dangerous

213
00:12:08,276 --> 00:12:15,796
Speaker 4: and so being able to to eliminate that layer. You

214
00:12:15,796 --> 00:12:18,876
Speaker 4: know that propaganda layer. You know, there's a great line.

215
00:12:18,916 --> 00:12:22,156
Speaker 4: I mean, one of the leaders in the film, Robert Earl,

216
00:12:22,236 --> 00:12:26,076
Speaker 4: counsel who goes by Kinetic Justice, says, you know, I'm

217
00:12:26,116 --> 00:12:29,476
Speaker 4: in prison. I'm supposed to lie, I'm supposed to exaggerate.

218
00:12:29,556 --> 00:12:34,036
Speaker 4: I'm supposed to make up excuses. So that narrative is

219
00:12:34,076 --> 00:12:37,956
Speaker 4: so strong that unless we can tell the story directly

220
00:12:38,156 --> 00:12:42,156
Speaker 4: to people, they're just going to assume that it's not true.

221
00:12:42,596 --> 00:12:44,636
Speaker 4: And you know, and I felt like going into the

222
00:12:44,676 --> 00:12:48,436
Speaker 4: prisons there, I was far more you know, they would say, oh, well,

223
00:12:48,556 --> 00:12:50,836
Speaker 4: don't talk to the men because they're very dangerous and

224
00:12:50,876 --> 00:12:53,036
Speaker 4: they're going to tell you lies and so on. And

225
00:12:53,076 --> 00:12:55,676
Speaker 4: I felt so much more comfortable talking to the men

226
00:12:55,716 --> 00:12:57,196
Speaker 4: who are incarcerated than the guards.

227
00:12:57,676 --> 00:13:00,196
Speaker 1: Well, how long did it take for you to realize

228
00:13:00,196 --> 00:13:02,276
Speaker 1: that the movie was going to be constructed out of

229
00:13:02,316 --> 00:13:06,356
Speaker 1: these based on videos and prisoners we're sharing with you.

230
00:13:07,356 --> 00:13:09,836
Speaker 4: Well, you know, my biggest anxiety was that we were

231
00:13:09,876 --> 00:13:13,356
Speaker 4: not going to be able to get enough material talking

232
00:13:13,356 --> 00:13:16,516
Speaker 4: to the men. Obviously this archival material where you can

233
00:13:16,596 --> 00:13:23,436
Speaker 4: see really telling things that happen, there was an embarrassment

234
00:13:23,716 --> 00:13:27,636
Speaker 4: of traumatic events. I mean, it was just that was

235
00:13:27,756 --> 00:13:33,236
Speaker 4: like terror bytes worth of that material, but being able

236
00:13:33,276 --> 00:13:37,516
Speaker 4: to talk directly to the men. Once you do it,

237
00:13:37,556 --> 00:13:39,556
Speaker 4: once you're talking to them for five minutes, you think

238
00:13:39,676 --> 00:13:41,796
Speaker 4: this is the only thing I want to watch. I

239
00:13:41,836 --> 00:13:43,796
Speaker 4: don't want to hear anybody. I don't want to hear experts.

240
00:13:44,916 --> 00:13:46,916
Speaker 4: You know, we had this sex do Or Pontier was

241
00:13:46,996 --> 00:13:49,796
Speaker 4: my partner in making the jinks. Who's sitting here right there.

242
00:13:51,596 --> 00:13:54,196
Speaker 4: He and I talked a lot about experts when we

243
00:13:54,236 --> 00:13:57,316
Speaker 4: were making the jinks. You know, we had access to

244
00:13:57,356 --> 00:13:59,636
Speaker 4: the people that were in Bob Durst's life, and we

245
00:13:59,756 --> 00:14:03,076
Speaker 4: had access to people that were present during crimes and

246
00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:06,516
Speaker 4: helpful in crimes and so on, and so it just

247
00:14:06,636 --> 00:14:08,756
Speaker 4: was every time we'd interview somebody would say, well let

248
00:14:08,796 --> 00:14:10,676
Speaker 4: me tell you how this works or something. It just

249
00:14:10,716 --> 00:14:14,276
Speaker 4: wasn't very effective, and in this case it was. It

250
00:14:14,556 --> 00:14:17,236
Speaker 4: would have been absurd, you know, there was we wanted

251
00:14:17,236 --> 00:14:19,116
Speaker 4: to talk to some of the system actors. So we

252
00:14:19,196 --> 00:14:22,596
Speaker 4: ended up getting access to like the Attorney General, who's

253
00:14:22,636 --> 00:14:26,516
Speaker 4: an incredible cinematic villain, and.

254
00:14:26,396 --> 00:14:28,196
Speaker 1: It is I want to talk to him in more detail.

255
00:14:28,196 --> 00:14:29,716
Speaker 1: I want to come back to him. Just pause on that,

256
00:14:29,796 --> 00:14:32,396
Speaker 1: because anyway, keep going.

257
00:14:32,596 --> 00:14:36,396
Speaker 4: And by the way, I particularly enjoyed and my mind

258
00:14:36,476 --> 00:14:38,876
Speaker 4: was a little bit blown by hearing Steve Marshall, the

259
00:14:38,876 --> 00:14:44,876
Speaker 4: Attorney General in your podcast, you know, speaking as the

260
00:14:45,916 --> 00:14:49,156
Speaker 4: convincingly right as the authority who's explaining how you know,

261
00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:52,436
Speaker 4: he's there for crime victims and they've waited thirty five

262
00:14:52,516 --> 00:14:54,916
Speaker 4: years for justice and all that stuff. And this is

263
00:14:54,916 --> 00:14:59,236
Speaker 4: a guy who's presiding over death camps in an American state.

264
00:15:00,556 --> 00:15:02,436
Speaker 4: But he was something, he was somebody that had to

265
00:15:02,436 --> 00:15:02,796
Speaker 4: be there.

266
00:15:02,876 --> 00:15:06,956
Speaker 1: So to to pause for a moment, the movie is about.

267
00:15:07,076 --> 00:15:11,396
Speaker 1: It's a in general, an investigation of the extraordinary brutality

268
00:15:11,396 --> 00:15:15,996
Speaker 1: inside the Alabama prison system, and in particular about the

269
00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:17,876
Speaker 1: murder of a young man at the hands of a guard,

270
00:15:18,196 --> 00:15:22,316
Speaker 1: of a sadistic guard, and then the cover up that

271
00:15:22,476 --> 00:15:27,436
Speaker 1: ensues that you're able to uncover by virtue of these

272
00:15:27,476 --> 00:15:30,996
Speaker 1: calls with the with the prisoners inside the same institution.

273
00:15:31,436 --> 00:15:37,036
Speaker 1: So it's simultaneously a kind of Upton Sinclair like expose

274
00:15:37,276 --> 00:15:41,596
Speaker 1: of a institution and also a murder mystery and im

275
00:15:42,276 --> 00:15:45,356
Speaker 1: and the murder mystery which I don't know whether we

276
00:15:45,356 --> 00:15:47,996
Speaker 1: should give away the one of the key kind of

277
00:15:48,036 --> 00:15:51,956
Speaker 1: moments in the in the movie, but you get it.

278
00:15:52,076 --> 00:15:57,876
Speaker 1: Takes a surprising and horrifying twist. As you're in the

279
00:15:57,876 --> 00:16:00,476
Speaker 1: middle of it. You think you think you're investigating one

280
00:16:00,596 --> 00:16:04,076
Speaker 1: murder and then you end up investigating too And I'm

281
00:16:04,236 --> 00:16:09,356
Speaker 1: how how far into the film was the twist?

282
00:16:10,036 --> 00:16:12,596
Speaker 4: Well, we didn't know what we were making. We never

283
00:16:12,636 --> 00:16:16,596
Speaker 4: know what we're making, right, And sometimes today I think

284
00:16:16,636 --> 00:16:20,436
Speaker 4: in documentary world, you know, somebody, some streamer or something

285
00:16:20,476 --> 00:16:24,476
Speaker 4: will send you a like a an email saying like,

286
00:16:24,556 --> 00:16:27,036
Speaker 4: you know, you need to make this film, and I

287
00:16:27,116 --> 00:16:29,956
Speaker 4: almost never open them, but when I do open them,

288
00:16:30,036 --> 00:16:33,196
Speaker 4: there's always like a deck, and the deck literally will

289
00:16:33,236 --> 00:16:35,716
Speaker 4: say to you, you know, here are the main characters,

290
00:16:35,796 --> 00:16:38,276
Speaker 4: and we've already made agreements with them, and this is

291
00:16:38,316 --> 00:16:40,636
Speaker 4: what they're going to say, and then you know, here's

292
00:16:40,676 --> 00:16:44,996
Speaker 4: what your plotline is going to be. And I just think,

293
00:16:45,036 --> 00:16:48,996
Speaker 4: like that should be an AI film, like you already

294
00:16:48,996 --> 00:16:50,516
Speaker 4: know what it is and you should just say I

295
00:16:50,676 --> 00:16:53,756
Speaker 4: that thing and some people watch it. But the whole

296
00:16:53,796 --> 00:16:56,236
Speaker 4: idea is the journey, right, The whole idea is that

297
00:16:56,276 --> 00:16:58,556
Speaker 4: we don't know what's going to happen. You know, when

298
00:16:58,556 --> 00:17:00,636
Speaker 4: I was making Capturing the Freedman's I thought I was

299
00:17:00,676 --> 00:17:04,236
Speaker 4: making a film about professional children's birthday party entertainers in

300
00:17:04,276 --> 00:17:07,116
Speaker 4: New York City, and then you know, it turned out

301
00:17:07,116 --> 00:17:09,796
Speaker 4: to be something that was radically different from that because

302
00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:13,196
Speaker 4: you discover something along the way. When we were making

303
00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:17,996
Speaker 4: the jinks, we knew that Bob Durst wanted to talk,

304
00:17:18,516 --> 00:17:21,596
Speaker 4: and that was interesting enough for me and Zach. What

305
00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:26,596
Speaker 4: we found, the fact that he wanted to talk enough

306
00:17:26,676 --> 00:17:28,436
Speaker 4: that it would lead us down enough pass that we

307
00:17:28,476 --> 00:17:31,956
Speaker 4: would discover evidence and he would get arrested for murder

308
00:17:32,036 --> 00:17:36,116
Speaker 4: the day before the last episode, was totally unpredictable. And

309
00:17:36,116 --> 00:17:40,236
Speaker 4: that's why you do it, right. I mean, so in

310
00:17:40,276 --> 00:17:43,036
Speaker 4: this case, we had just gotten a text message from

311
00:17:43,036 --> 00:17:47,036
Speaker 4: one of the men inside and the I guess the

312
00:17:47,076 --> 00:17:49,996
Speaker 4: only precursor of that was that we had been looking

313
00:17:49,996 --> 00:17:54,116
Speaker 4: at all of the pro sae lawsuits filed by prisoners,

314
00:17:54,716 --> 00:17:57,076
Speaker 4: you know, lawsuits that are filed without the benefit of

315
00:17:57,076 --> 00:18:00,596
Speaker 4: a lawyer. But these guys are kind of incredible lawyers.

316
00:18:00,756 --> 00:18:04,396
Speaker 4: Some of them are really extraordinary, sort of jailhouse lawyers,

317
00:18:04,396 --> 00:18:10,276
Speaker 4: but very very sophisticated. And we had been looking at

318
00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:13,356
Speaker 4: all these lawsuits because we wanted to see who are

319
00:18:13,396 --> 00:18:17,396
Speaker 4: the guards that are coming up repeatedly in these lawsuits

320
00:18:17,636 --> 00:18:20,076
Speaker 4: and we had found this one guard named Rod Gadson,

321
00:18:21,116 --> 00:18:24,396
Speaker 4: Rodrick Gadson, and he was named in I think twenty

322
00:18:24,476 --> 00:18:28,036
Speaker 4: four different brutality suits. And you have to understand, like

323
00:18:28,636 --> 00:18:34,036
Speaker 4: bringing one of these lawsuits in prison is it's the

324
00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:41,156
Speaker 4: most optimistic and kind of absurdest thing because there's no

325
00:18:41,316 --> 00:18:44,956
Speaker 4: money in it. They never get an award. Their conversations

326
00:18:44,956 --> 00:18:47,196
Speaker 4: that happened like, Okay, well this guy got his finger

327
00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:49,956
Speaker 4: intentionally cut off in his cell door by a guard.

328
00:18:50,596 --> 00:18:52,796
Speaker 4: But how much is a finger really worth? You know,

329
00:18:52,876 --> 00:18:55,356
Speaker 4: maybe it's five thousand dollars. It's very hard to get

330
00:18:55,396 --> 00:18:57,756
Speaker 4: a lawyer to cover that. We have lawyers said that

331
00:18:57,796 --> 00:18:59,516
Speaker 4: would say to us along the way, like find me

332
00:18:59,596 --> 00:19:02,836
Speaker 4: a murder that might be worth it, that might be

333
00:19:02,876 --> 00:19:05,516
Speaker 4: worth my getting into it. So in this particular case,

334
00:19:05,636 --> 00:19:08,476
Speaker 4: rod Gadson's name had kept coming up. And then one

335
00:19:08,556 --> 00:19:16,116
Speaker 4: day Mel texts Charlotte, my co director, and says, hey,

336
00:19:17,636 --> 00:19:21,436
Speaker 4: we understand somebody got beaten very badly at Donaldson Prison

337
00:19:21,516 --> 00:19:24,116
Speaker 4: and he's currently at UAB Hospital. So he was moved

338
00:19:24,156 --> 00:19:26,956
Speaker 4: off the campus to the hospital. So Charlotte, I had

339
00:19:26,956 --> 00:19:30,356
Speaker 4: just got in a car in Birmingham and we just

340
00:19:30,436 --> 00:19:33,196
Speaker 4: drove over to the hospital. We walked in and I

341
00:19:33,236 --> 00:19:35,156
Speaker 4: like took my iPhone and I stuck in my pocket

342
00:19:35,196 --> 00:19:38,036
Speaker 4: and moved it around a little bit, and they said, oh,

343
00:19:38,036 --> 00:19:40,156
Speaker 4: you got to go up to the fourth floor, and

344
00:19:40,196 --> 00:19:41,836
Speaker 4: we went up there, and by the time we got there,

345
00:19:41,876 --> 00:19:44,316
Speaker 4: we found that this young man, Stephen Davis, had died.

346
00:19:44,796 --> 00:19:47,716
Speaker 4: So he had been and we didn't know how that

347
00:19:47,756 --> 00:19:50,236
Speaker 4: had happened, other than that he had been beaten. And

348
00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:54,316
Speaker 4: then we went to find his mother because often the

349
00:19:54,356 --> 00:19:58,116
Speaker 4: prison doesn't tell the family members if somebody has been

350
00:19:58,196 --> 00:20:01,436
Speaker 4: killed in prison, especially if it's done by a guard,

351
00:20:01,556 --> 00:20:04,596
Speaker 4: if the guard is responsible, they immediately scramble all the

352
00:20:04,596 --> 00:20:06,756
Speaker 4: witnesses and they will say, well, let's not tell his

353
00:20:06,956 --> 00:20:09,916
Speaker 4: mother for two weeks. We'll move the these guys around them,

354
00:20:09,996 --> 00:20:11,676
Speaker 4: we'll give this guy an incentive to go to a

355
00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:14,516
Speaker 4: different facility, and we'll help this other guy, because they

356
00:20:14,556 --> 00:20:17,156
Speaker 4: just don't want the evidence. And in that case, we

357
00:20:17,196 --> 00:20:20,396
Speaker 4: went to Sandy Ray's house. She had just been with

358
00:20:20,476 --> 00:20:22,916
Speaker 4: her son hours before that and had taken Mo off

359
00:20:22,956 --> 00:20:27,996
Speaker 4: life support, and she said, you guys are making a

360
00:20:28,036 --> 00:20:30,756
Speaker 4: film and we said yeah. She said, well, I want

361
00:20:30,796 --> 00:20:33,196
Speaker 4: to help you do it. I don't want this to

362
00:20:33,236 --> 00:20:36,636
Speaker 4: happen to any other mother, and so right now they're

363
00:20:36,716 --> 00:20:39,196
Speaker 4: lying to me. I know, the prison's calling me right now,

364
00:20:39,236 --> 00:20:41,316
Speaker 4: and they're lying to me about what happens. So show

365
00:20:41,396 --> 00:20:44,196
Speaker 4: me how to record my phone calls. So we got

366
00:20:44,196 --> 00:20:45,876
Speaker 4: on her phone and we showed her how to record

367
00:20:45,916 --> 00:20:47,516
Speaker 4: a phone call. And then she said, by the way,

368
00:20:47,516 --> 00:20:51,196
Speaker 4: there are no motels here because Uniontown only has four

369
00:20:51,236 --> 00:20:54,236
Speaker 4: hundred people in it, so you know, I have this

370
00:20:54,316 --> 00:20:57,436
Speaker 4: spare room. So Charlotte just like got her duffel back

371
00:20:57,516 --> 00:20:59,276
Speaker 4: and just moved in for a couple of weeks into

372
00:20:59,276 --> 00:21:00,276
Speaker 4: Sandy's house, which is.

373
00:21:00,236 --> 00:21:02,476
Speaker 1: Why, yeah, waiting for the call to come.

374
00:21:02,556 --> 00:21:06,116
Speaker 4: Not just that call, but it's just watching how Sandy

375
00:21:06,196 --> 00:21:08,596
Speaker 4: was discovering what had really happened to her son and

376
00:21:08,636 --> 00:21:12,236
Speaker 4: eventually getting a call from somebody inside the prison who

377
00:21:12,276 --> 00:21:15,836
Speaker 4: was a whistleblower who said doesn't even want to identify himself,

378
00:21:15,956 --> 00:21:18,396
Speaker 4: but says, you know this is not this was not

379
00:21:18,516 --> 00:21:19,956
Speaker 4: a I wonder described it well.

380
00:21:20,036 --> 00:21:25,436
Speaker 1: Watching My first kind of like technical question was you

381
00:21:25,516 --> 00:21:29,556
Speaker 1: had you're there in the room on camera with the

382
00:21:29,596 --> 00:21:32,116
Speaker 1: mom when she gets the call from the state or

383
00:21:32,156 --> 00:21:34,156
Speaker 1: the Department of Corrections. I was like, how on earth

384
00:21:34,196 --> 00:21:36,116
Speaker 1: were they there in the room, like I didn't understand. Technically,

385
00:21:36,276 --> 00:21:38,636
Speaker 1: now I know how it happened. They were victims of

386
00:21:38,676 --> 00:21:41,876
Speaker 1: their own because it's they built a delay in order

387
00:21:41,876 --> 00:21:43,556
Speaker 1: to build a cover up, and in so doing they

388
00:21:43,556 --> 00:21:46,036
Speaker 1: destroyed their cover up weirdly.

389
00:21:46,116 --> 00:21:48,636
Speaker 4: Well yeah, and by the way, in terms of being

390
00:21:48,636 --> 00:21:52,556
Speaker 4: shot with your own gun, the contraband cell phones that

391
00:21:52,596 --> 00:21:57,156
Speaker 4: are in the prison are all sold to the inmates

392
00:21:57,156 --> 00:22:00,276
Speaker 4: in the prison by the guards. Right. As a matter

393
00:22:00,276 --> 00:22:04,556
Speaker 4: of fact, when I started to discover how many, just

394
00:22:04,636 --> 00:22:09,956
Speaker 4: how much drugs were coming into the prison or this

395
00:22:10,276 --> 00:22:12,956
Speaker 4: enormous cash of cell phones that were coming to the prison,

396
00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:15,036
Speaker 4: I was talking to one of the prisoners and I

397
00:22:15,076 --> 00:22:17,556
Speaker 4: said to him, you know, where's all this coming from?

398
00:22:17,636 --> 00:22:19,116
Speaker 4: And he looked at me like I was an idiot,

399
00:22:19,116 --> 00:22:24,196
Speaker 4: and he said, you know, we don't leave, right. So

400
00:22:24,356 --> 00:22:26,796
Speaker 4: clearly the people that come and go every day are

401
00:22:26,796 --> 00:22:28,916
Speaker 4: the ones that are going out and getting drugs and

402
00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:30,836
Speaker 4: going out and buying cell phones and bring him in.

403
00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:34,756
Speaker 4: So it's kind of incredibly ironic that the tool that

404
00:22:34,796 --> 00:22:38,196
Speaker 4: the men are using to identify the crimes that are

405
00:22:38,236 --> 00:22:42,276
Speaker 4: being committed by the ostensible law enforcement officers are sold

406
00:22:42,276 --> 00:22:45,516
Speaker 4: to them by aforementioned law enforcement officers.

407
00:22:45,676 --> 00:22:47,756
Speaker 1: I had a lot of difficulty, even after I had

408
00:22:47,756 --> 00:22:51,116
Speaker 1: spent months and months and months doing my Alabama project,

409
00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:55,916
Speaker 1: I was just aghast. I don't know why was I

410
00:22:55,916 --> 00:22:59,556
Speaker 1: I was just something about seeing it because I only heard.

411
00:23:00,556 --> 00:23:02,916
Speaker 1: My whole thing was just listening to people tell me stories. Right,

412
00:23:02,916 --> 00:23:05,556
Speaker 1: I didn't see anything. Will be the point. I'm doing

413
00:23:05,556 --> 00:23:09,836
Speaker 1: a podcast. I suddenly there's a scene in the doc

414
00:23:10,116 --> 00:23:13,236
Speaker 1: when it's I don't know why the scene has stayed

415
00:23:13,276 --> 00:23:16,996
Speaker 1: with me, but I've forgotten. One of your characters gets

416
00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:20,316
Speaker 1: sent to solitary and he's on the phone and he

417
00:23:21,036 --> 00:23:25,036
Speaker 1: shows you these jars he has that are full of

418
00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:28,996
Speaker 1: He's telling you why he hangs his food up in

419
00:23:29,036 --> 00:23:32,076
Speaker 1: a bag high off the ground on his prison cell.

420
00:23:32,596 --> 00:23:34,156
Speaker 1: And then and then he gets in trouble for it

421
00:23:34,196 --> 00:23:35,796
Speaker 1: every day, but he says, well, the reason I do

422
00:23:35,876 --> 00:23:38,356
Speaker 1: that is because of these guys. And he shows you

423
00:23:39,036 --> 00:23:41,916
Speaker 1: jars that have little live rats inside of it. And

424
00:23:41,956 --> 00:23:44,076
Speaker 1: then he shows you his toilet and you see rats

425
00:23:44,076 --> 00:23:47,316
Speaker 1: swimming in his toilet, and he says, I caught eleven

426
00:23:47,356 --> 00:23:48,556
Speaker 1: of these last.

427
00:23:48,396 --> 00:23:50,756
Speaker 4: Night, Eleven caught in one night, eleven caught in one night.

428
00:23:51,356 --> 00:23:54,476
Speaker 2: They keep my food laundry bead hanging from the bars,

429
00:23:55,596 --> 00:23:57,836
Speaker 2: and they write me different, theres be hanging things from

430
00:23:57,836 --> 00:24:00,356
Speaker 2: the bars, but if I had put it on the floor,

431
00:24:01,396 --> 00:24:04,316
Speaker 2: they'll hit it rats.

432
00:24:06,956 --> 00:24:07,476
Speaker 4: One back.

433
00:24:08,836 --> 00:24:12,956
Speaker 1: And that was the point, was like I was like Jesus,

434
00:24:14,836 --> 00:24:17,356
Speaker 1: why that's not the worst but way not even close

435
00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:19,876
Speaker 1: to being the worst thing that happens. But something about

436
00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:22,756
Speaker 1: the visual of realizing that there are people who will

437
00:24:23,316 --> 00:24:29,876
Speaker 1: happily tolerate conditions like that inside of prison, like the

438
00:24:29,916 --> 00:24:33,476
Speaker 1: administration is fine with that. Somehow, that somehow got me.

439
00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:36,436
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I can tell from your description

440
00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:38,676
Speaker 4: that everyone's going to run out and immediately go to

441
00:24:38,836 --> 00:24:43,436
Speaker 4: HBO and watch this film so that they can see

442
00:24:43,716 --> 00:24:48,716
Speaker 4: But it is, it is, it is extraordinary that that

443
00:24:49,796 --> 00:24:53,436
Speaker 4: the and I have to say just I think one

444
00:24:53,476 --> 00:24:58,476
Speaker 4: of the things that in your podcast that was so

445
00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:01,236
Speaker 4: telling to me, and I really think it brings these

446
00:25:01,276 --> 00:25:09,236
Speaker 4: stories together, is your postulate of the moral failure cascade.

447
00:25:09,916 --> 00:25:15,116
Speaker 4: You know that you have a series of small or

448
00:25:15,436 --> 00:25:22,196
Speaker 4: larger or growing problems and events that happen, and then

449
00:25:22,596 --> 00:25:24,476
Speaker 4: one thing leads to another and it gets worse and

450
00:25:24,516 --> 00:25:27,756
Speaker 4: worse and worse, and I think, you know, people get

451
00:25:27,836 --> 00:25:29,756
Speaker 4: used to it. You know, they get to the point

452
00:25:29,796 --> 00:25:31,756
Speaker 4: where they say, well, I mean, how many people are

453
00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:36,276
Speaker 4: really you know, I mean some people are going to die? Right? Well,

454
00:25:36,316 --> 00:25:38,396
Speaker 4: I don't know what if we have the deadliest prison

455
00:25:38,436 --> 00:25:40,596
Speaker 4: system in America at some point, are we going to

456
00:25:40,676 --> 00:25:43,036
Speaker 4: look at that and say, like, maybe we're doing something wrong?

457
00:25:43,476 --> 00:25:46,676
Speaker 4: But you hear you have Steve Marshall, the one person

458
00:25:46,716 --> 00:25:49,236
Speaker 4: that we share in this the podcast and also in

459
00:25:49,276 --> 00:25:52,396
Speaker 4: the film, who says, you know, I've been told that

460
00:25:52,436 --> 00:25:56,556
Speaker 4: there's some kind of systemic problem in all of our facilities. Right,

461
00:25:56,596 --> 00:26:02,436
Speaker 4: We've just been watching an hour of the most punishing material.

462
00:26:02,516 --> 00:26:07,676
Speaker 4: You can't imagine prison after prison after prison, Donaldson Prison,

463
00:26:07,836 --> 00:26:11,676
Speaker 4: Kilby Prison, bib Prison, each one of these places home

464
00:26:11,716 --> 00:26:13,596
Speaker 4: and where they have two hundred and forty people on

465
00:26:13,636 --> 00:26:19,596
Speaker 4: the death row. And your guy was right before he's executed.

466
00:26:21,916 --> 00:26:23,716
Speaker 4: You've been watching that for an hour, and then here's

467
00:26:23,716 --> 00:26:27,236
Speaker 4: Steve Marshall, the chief law enforcement officer of the State

468
00:26:27,276 --> 00:26:30,516
Speaker 4: of Alabama, and he says, I've been told that there's

469
00:26:30,516 --> 00:26:33,556
Speaker 4: some systemic problem in all of our facilities. And I

470
00:26:33,596 --> 00:26:39,236
Speaker 4: wholeheartedly disagree with that. Yeah, and it's not just willful blindness.

471
00:26:39,316 --> 00:26:43,636
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just it's just intentional cruelty. It's a

472
00:26:43,676 --> 00:26:48,196
Speaker 4: willingness to preside over a system of death camps. They

473
00:26:48,196 --> 00:26:51,156
Speaker 4: are death camps. We have to say that's what they are.

474
00:26:51,236 --> 00:26:53,156
Speaker 4: Since we started working in the film, which was seven

475
00:26:53,276 --> 00:26:57,236
Speaker 4: years ago, fifteen hundred people have died in that little

476
00:26:57,276 --> 00:27:00,516
Speaker 4: prison system. You know, they have twenty thousand people in

477
00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:03,676
Speaker 4: the prison system. They have another twenty five thousand in

478
00:27:03,716 --> 00:27:08,476
Speaker 4: the jails in Alabama where people die regularly and somehow

479
00:27:08,516 --> 00:27:11,876
Speaker 4: people are done of, you know, highest level of drug

480
00:27:11,916 --> 00:27:14,356
Speaker 4: overdose of any prison system in the country, not that

481
00:27:14,396 --> 00:27:18,676
Speaker 4: there are not lots of other horrific ones, highest numbers

482
00:27:18,676 --> 00:27:25,356
Speaker 4: of suicide, highest level of sexual assault, and just the

483
00:27:25,396 --> 00:27:29,076
Speaker 4: brutality of the situation. You can't you can't run that

484
00:27:29,236 --> 00:27:31,556
Speaker 4: without knowing it. You can't say, well, I wasn't aware

485
00:27:31,556 --> 00:27:33,636
Speaker 4: of it, because there were enough layers between me and

486
00:27:33,676 --> 00:27:38,196
Speaker 4: the people that were, you know, actually in the in

487
00:27:38,236 --> 00:27:40,916
Speaker 4: the trenches doing the business of killing people.

488
00:27:43,156 --> 00:27:46,796
Speaker 1: After the break, more from my conversation with Andrew Jireki,

489
00:27:56,516 --> 00:27:59,436
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about Alabama, because I'm curious

490
00:27:59,476 --> 00:28:04,556
Speaker 1: about what you what was your level of understanding, knowledge,

491
00:28:04,596 --> 00:28:06,876
Speaker 1: familiarity with Alabama before you did this project.

492
00:28:08,436 --> 00:28:10,916
Speaker 4: It was probably the state I knew the least about

493
00:28:11,076 --> 00:28:14,116
Speaker 4: in the Union. You know, it's just not something if

494
00:28:14,156 --> 00:28:17,596
Speaker 4: you grew up in New York City and you study history,

495
00:28:17,596 --> 00:28:20,636
Speaker 4: you're not spending a ton of time on Alabama. I

496
00:28:20,716 --> 00:28:23,356
Speaker 4: knew a little bit, you know, like there, I don't know,

497
00:28:23,436 --> 00:28:27,876
Speaker 4: like the state motto of you know, a typical American

498
00:28:28,156 --> 00:28:31,236
Speaker 4: state will be like the Sunshine State or the show

499
00:28:31,276 --> 00:28:31,836
Speaker 4: Me State.

500
00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:32,116
Speaker 3: You know.

501
00:28:32,236 --> 00:28:37,596
Speaker 4: Alabama's motto is we dare defend our rights. Yeah, you know,

502
00:28:37,676 --> 00:28:39,876
Speaker 4: which is really like if you want to come and

503
00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:43,436
Speaker 4: have an opinion, you can go fuck yourself. We're not

504
00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:46,116
Speaker 4: interested in your opinion. We're just going to do our thing.

505
00:28:46,156 --> 00:28:47,876
Speaker 4: And certainly we don't want you telling us how to

506
00:28:47,916 --> 00:28:53,716
Speaker 4: deal with our negroes or our population of prisoners, or

507
00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:56,956
Speaker 4: our crime or you know, any of it. It's just

508
00:28:57,196 --> 00:28:58,636
Speaker 4: there's a wall.

509
00:28:58,756 --> 00:29:01,156
Speaker 1: I'm not sure whether that's more or less egregious than

510
00:29:01,156 --> 00:29:04,556
Speaker 1: New Jersey calling itself the garden state. But where are

511
00:29:04,556 --> 00:29:07,316
Speaker 1: these gardens in New Jersey? I get to see anything

512
00:29:07,356 --> 00:29:13,276
Speaker 1: along to it Turnpike. But uh, it's it's a heart.

513
00:29:13,436 --> 00:29:15,116
Speaker 1: You know. I've done I was kind of I think

514
00:29:15,116 --> 00:29:18,756
Speaker 1: that I have done more. Podcast episodes of Rusion's history

515
00:29:19,036 --> 00:29:21,476
Speaker 1: that are situated in Alabama, within in any other state.

516
00:29:21,956 --> 00:29:26,956
Speaker 1: I'm drawn to this place. And for the same reason,

517
00:29:27,076 --> 00:29:32,436
Speaker 1: I feel like it's not the United States. It's something

518
00:29:33,796 --> 00:29:36,996
Speaker 1: an it's it is within the United States, but not

519
00:29:37,076 --> 00:29:38,956
Speaker 1: of the United States, or maybe I'm being too kind

520
00:29:38,996 --> 00:29:41,876
Speaker 1: to the United States. It is clearly in some ways

521
00:29:41,876 --> 00:29:42,636
Speaker 1: a foreign country.

522
00:29:43,556 --> 00:29:46,516
Speaker 4: It's kind of amazing you're saying that because the chaplain

523
00:29:46,996 --> 00:29:51,796
Speaker 4: who I visited and met and encouraged me to come back,

524
00:29:52,236 --> 00:29:56,996
Speaker 4: Chaplain Browder, after I was in it for six months,

525
00:29:57,036 --> 00:30:00,356
Speaker 4: so the first year or two, and I was stayed

526
00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:03,556
Speaker 4: in touch with him constantly. He's quite he's quite a

527
00:30:03,596 --> 00:30:05,316
Speaker 4: bit older now, he's seven years older than when I

528
00:30:05,316 --> 00:30:09,556
Speaker 4: first met him. But he's still very thoughtful guy. And

529
00:30:09,916 --> 00:30:12,716
Speaker 4: he said, I'm telling you, Andrew, Alabama and in these

530
00:30:12,836 --> 00:30:16,316
Speaker 4: United States. Yeah. But you know, then you ask yourself

531
00:30:16,316 --> 00:30:18,756
Speaker 4: whether that's even right. You know. The reality is is

532
00:30:18,796 --> 00:30:21,916
Speaker 4: that you know, upstate New York, Robert Brooks just got

533
00:30:21,996 --> 00:30:25,036
Speaker 4: killed in upstate New York by corrections officers who beat

534
00:30:25,076 --> 00:30:27,356
Speaker 4: him to death. And the only reason we don't think

535
00:30:27,396 --> 00:30:30,356
Speaker 4: it was natural causes or a drug overdose is because

536
00:30:30,396 --> 00:30:32,996
Speaker 4: they were I don't even want to say dumb enough.

537
00:30:33,156 --> 00:30:37,116
Speaker 4: They were entitled enough to just leave their body cameras

538
00:30:37,156 --> 00:30:39,796
Speaker 4: on because they just assumed that nobody was ever really

539
00:30:39,836 --> 00:30:41,796
Speaker 4: going to try to figure out what happened to poor

540
00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:44,756
Speaker 4: Robert Brooks who was handcuffed when they beat him to death.

541
00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:48,836
Speaker 4: So it's happening in New York. You know, if you

542
00:30:48,876 --> 00:30:51,396
Speaker 4: were in it, if you would put your dog in

543
00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:53,836
Speaker 4: upstate New York and at kennel because you were going

544
00:30:53,876 --> 00:30:57,596
Speaker 4: on holiday and you saw this, you would say, I'm

545
00:30:57,596 --> 00:31:01,396
Speaker 4: calling the ASPCA. This is a total disaster. Nobody can

546
00:31:01,396 --> 00:31:05,116
Speaker 4: put their dog in this, So it's not a whole

547
00:31:05,156 --> 00:31:06,676
Speaker 4: lot better in a lot of these places.

548
00:31:06,956 --> 00:31:09,916
Speaker 1: Two things can be true simultane see. One is that

549
00:31:10,996 --> 00:31:16,756
Speaker 1: in general, the prison conditions in the United States are

550
00:31:16,876 --> 00:31:19,996
Speaker 1: appalling compared to our peers around the world. But there

551
00:31:20,076 --> 00:31:27,036
Speaker 1: is something particular and unusual about Alabama that elevates Alabama

552
00:31:27,076 --> 00:31:30,876
Speaker 1: even above its miserable peers. And I wonder whether the

553
00:31:30,876 --> 00:31:32,756
Speaker 1: weekend sort of since we've both been immersed in this,

554
00:31:33,116 --> 00:31:35,636
Speaker 1: we can put our finger on what it is. And

555
00:31:35,956 --> 00:31:40,836
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, I'm thinking about Steve Marshall, which is if

556
00:31:40,876 --> 00:31:42,436
Speaker 1: you I don't know I'm making this up, but if

557
00:31:42,476 --> 00:31:44,596
Speaker 1: you sat down with the Attorney General of New York State,

558
00:31:45,556 --> 00:31:49,836
Speaker 1: they they would have the good grace to be embarrassed

559
00:31:49,916 --> 00:31:54,276
Speaker 1: about what was happening in the prisons. Steve Marshall, And

560
00:31:54,316 --> 00:31:55,476
Speaker 1: I want you to talk a little bit about your

561
00:31:55,476 --> 00:31:59,996
Speaker 1: interview with Steve Marshall. Steve Marshall, when confronted with these questions,

562
00:32:00,516 --> 00:32:03,756
Speaker 1: wasn't even remotely embarrassed. In fact, he had the gall

563
00:32:04,316 --> 00:32:06,476
Speaker 1: when he had to give that one quote from him

564
00:32:06,516 --> 00:32:09,476
Speaker 1: about when you ask him about Christian grace, he says,

565
00:32:09,516 --> 00:32:11,396
Speaker 1: I believe in Christian grace, but that doesn't mean somebody

566
00:32:11,396 --> 00:32:12,236
Speaker 1: should got out of prison.

567
00:32:12,516 --> 00:32:15,356
Speaker 3: I mean, look, I think anybody can have a change

568
00:32:15,356 --> 00:32:18,076
Speaker 3: of heart. Oh I'll say that, I think God can

569
00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:22,276
Speaker 3: invade somebody believe in the concept of grace. But grace

570
00:32:22,276 --> 00:32:25,876
Speaker 3: atself doesn't mean released from prison. Grace means that you're

571
00:32:25,996 --> 00:32:27,516
Speaker 3: relieved from the burden of your sin.

572
00:32:28,556 --> 00:32:31,436
Speaker 1: It's not even that he's defiant, it's that he thinks

573
00:32:31,436 --> 00:32:36,436
Speaker 1: he's on the side of God right now. That is different.

574
00:32:36,796 --> 00:32:40,796
Speaker 1: Can you what are your thoughts on the peculiarity of

575
00:32:40,796 --> 00:32:42,916
Speaker 1: Alabama and can you talk about let's talk about Steve

576
00:32:42,916 --> 00:32:44,236
Speaker 1: Marshall because you spend time with him.

577
00:32:44,596 --> 00:32:45,356
Speaker 4: Yeah, how much?

578
00:32:45,476 --> 00:32:46,436
Speaker 1: How long was that interview?

579
00:32:48,156 --> 00:32:51,116
Speaker 4: I think that interview was shorter than most. Maybe it

580
00:32:51,156 --> 00:32:52,796
Speaker 4: was two hours.

581
00:32:53,156 --> 00:32:56,276
Speaker 1: This is why I love documentarians. Your idea of shorter

582
00:32:56,276 --> 00:32:57,236
Speaker 1: than most is two hours.

583
00:32:57,476 --> 00:32:57,676
Speaker 4: Yeah.

584
00:32:57,756 --> 00:32:59,476
Speaker 1: My idea of shorter than most is ten minutes.

585
00:33:01,116 --> 00:33:05,756
Speaker 4: We do some sevens and some nines, you know Jesus. Yeah, yeah,

586
00:33:05,756 --> 00:33:08,956
Speaker 4: they're kick. Usually the wife is like standing and the

587
00:33:09,156 --> 00:33:11,356
Speaker 4: corner and being like looking at the watch.

588
00:33:11,636 --> 00:33:13,676
Speaker 1: But Steve Marshall gave you two hours.

589
00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:18,756
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, you know, the great thing about somebody

590
00:33:18,836 --> 00:33:22,596
Speaker 4: like this is that they say the quiet part out loud.

591
00:33:23,396 --> 00:33:27,596
Speaker 4: There's no there's no shame in it. And I don't

592
00:33:27,716 --> 00:33:31,836
Speaker 4: really know how he manages it, you know, as a

593
00:33:31,876 --> 00:33:35,676
Speaker 4: self proclaimed Christian, I don't know how he goes and

594
00:33:36,396 --> 00:33:40,396
Speaker 4: kisses his kids and says like daddy's upholding the law

595
00:33:40,476 --> 00:33:45,116
Speaker 4: and so on, because he knows what the statistics are. Right,

596
00:33:45,156 --> 00:33:47,596
Speaker 4: Let's say he just doesn't he forces himself or he

597
00:33:47,956 --> 00:33:51,716
Speaker 4: prevents himself from from having access to the prisons. You know,

598
00:33:51,756 --> 00:33:55,236
Speaker 4: you can always put some kind of operachic in between

599
00:33:55,276 --> 00:33:57,116
Speaker 4: you and the prisons. And then you say, I don't

600
00:33:57,156 --> 00:33:58,876
Speaker 4: know I saw the reports, and it doesn't look like

601
00:33:58,916 --> 00:34:01,516
Speaker 4: it's all that bad. So I don't know how he

602
00:34:01,796 --> 00:34:05,476
Speaker 4: describes it to himself, but and I think, you know,

603
00:34:05,556 --> 00:34:07,956
Speaker 4: politicians are kind of will of the wisp. And you know,

604
00:34:07,956 --> 00:34:09,956
Speaker 4: he used to be a Democrat, and then now he's

605
00:34:09,956 --> 00:34:13,916
Speaker 4: a Republican, and then he was recently so Republican that

606
00:34:13,956 --> 00:34:16,476
Speaker 4: he was one of the guys who one of the

607
00:34:16,556 --> 00:34:19,156
Speaker 4: local state officials who came to New York and put

608
00:34:19,196 --> 00:34:21,916
Speaker 4: on the red tie and the Trump outfit and went

609
00:34:21,996 --> 00:34:25,996
Speaker 4: down to Lower Manhattan and start talking about how Trump

610
00:34:26,116 --> 00:34:28,956
Speaker 4: was being railroaded by the justice system and so on.

611
00:34:29,236 --> 00:34:31,756
Speaker 4: So he's always auditioning. And by the way, right now,

612
00:34:31,796 --> 00:34:35,076
Speaker 4: Steve Marshall's trying to run for Senate. He's trying to

613
00:34:35,116 --> 00:34:39,356
Speaker 4: run for Tommy Tubberville's seat in the Senate. So the

614
00:34:39,396 --> 00:34:43,396
Speaker 4: football coach, Tommy Tubberville became a US senator from Alabama.

615
00:34:44,516 --> 00:34:46,396
Speaker 4: He's the one that did not know that there were

616
00:34:46,396 --> 00:34:49,756
Speaker 4: three branches of government, right, He did not have a

617
00:34:49,756 --> 00:34:50,516
Speaker 4: lot of training.

618
00:34:50,996 --> 00:34:52,676
Speaker 1: He just thought it was offense and defense.

619
00:34:54,276 --> 00:34:57,596
Speaker 4: Exactly what would you do with this third branch? Especially,

620
00:34:57,636 --> 00:35:00,796
Speaker 4: that's what's happening in the federal government too. They're getting

621
00:35:00,876 --> 00:35:03,476
Speaker 4: rid of some of the branches out here. We have

622
00:35:03,516 --> 00:35:05,196
Speaker 4: too many branches that we're going to We're going to

623
00:35:05,276 --> 00:35:09,476
Speaker 4: doze those branches right out. But you know, I think

624
00:35:09,476 --> 00:35:16,356
Speaker 4: he just imagines. First of all, I think he's very

625
00:35:16,396 --> 00:35:20,556
Speaker 4: politically expeditious. You know, he wants to become a US senator.

626
00:35:20,596 --> 00:35:22,236
Speaker 4: He wants to be the guy that's the tough on

627
00:35:22,356 --> 00:35:28,396
Speaker 4: crime guy. He's sort of made book with this organization

628
00:35:28,556 --> 00:35:32,436
Speaker 4: called Vocal in Alabama, which is Victims of Crime and Leniency,

629
00:35:33,036 --> 00:35:36,436
Speaker 4: which is literally like a group of women who are

630
00:35:36,516 --> 00:35:40,436
Speaker 4: crime who you know, had a crime happen in their family,

631
00:35:41,156 --> 00:35:45,916
Speaker 4: and they go to every parole hearing and they don't

632
00:35:45,956 --> 00:35:48,316
Speaker 4: know the people. They get a little card before they

633
00:35:48,356 --> 00:35:50,636
Speaker 4: go there. We sort of embedded with them and maybe

634
00:35:50,836 --> 00:35:53,276
Speaker 4: should make a film about them. And they go to

635
00:35:53,316 --> 00:35:54,956
Speaker 4: a parole hearing where you have a guy who's been

636
00:35:54,956 --> 00:35:58,196
Speaker 4: locked up for twenty five years. He's an ordained minister,

637
00:35:58,436 --> 00:36:03,236
Speaker 4: he's taken every conceivable class, he's like mentored five hundred

638
00:36:03,276 --> 00:36:06,556
Speaker 4: young men that have been in there. And this a

639
00:36:06,596 --> 00:36:09,516
Speaker 4: woman will get up and say, you know, I'm here

640
00:36:09,636 --> 00:36:15,476
Speaker 4: to protest the parole of Kevin Johnson, And you know

641
00:36:15,596 --> 00:36:19,516
Speaker 4: he committed a crime in nineteen seventy three. They have

642
00:36:19,596 --> 00:36:21,716
Speaker 4: no idea what it is. They just know he committed

643
00:36:21,716 --> 00:36:23,556
Speaker 4: a crime and he should not be parled. And then

644
00:36:23,596 --> 00:36:25,956
Speaker 4: they stand in front of the parole board and they

645
00:36:25,996 --> 00:36:28,996
Speaker 4: say to the three members the parle board, if you

646
00:36:29,396 --> 00:36:34,156
Speaker 4: let this man out and he re offends, it will

647
00:36:34,156 --> 00:36:36,956
Speaker 4: be on your neck and everyone will know that you

648
00:36:37,116 --> 00:36:38,756
Speaker 4: did that. And you know, that's one of the things

649
00:36:38,796 --> 00:36:42,196
Speaker 4: that drove Alabama's parole rate to eight percent.

650
00:36:42,396 --> 00:36:44,876
Speaker 1: Which is that the last lowest in the country.

651
00:36:45,156 --> 00:36:47,596
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was at that time. It was. It's improved

652
00:36:47,596 --> 00:36:49,596
Speaker 4: a little bit, and I think it's improved in part,

653
00:36:50,036 --> 00:36:53,996
Speaker 4: you know, because of the work in and around the film,

654
00:36:54,476 --> 00:36:57,356
Speaker 4: because you know, among other things, it was a lawsuit

655
00:36:58,156 --> 00:37:01,996
Speaker 4: that was sparked by the film, this class action lawsuit

656
00:37:02,436 --> 00:37:05,556
Speaker 4: in which Kinetic Justice Robert rol Council is the lead plaintiff,

657
00:37:06,036 --> 00:37:09,876
Speaker 4: that really calls out Alabama for having a system of leasing.

658
00:37:10,476 --> 00:37:13,356
Speaker 4: And you know, because a lot of people don't realize

659
00:37:13,436 --> 00:37:18,436
Speaker 4: a that Alabama and many states like it benefit from

660
00:37:18,596 --> 00:37:20,796
Speaker 4: let's say, just in the case of Alabama, four hundred

661
00:37:21,036 --> 00:37:25,156
Speaker 4: and fifty million dollars a year in unpaid labor and

662
00:37:25,196 --> 00:37:29,116
Speaker 4: the men inside are forced to provide this labor. And

663
00:37:29,196 --> 00:37:34,436
Speaker 4: by forced, you know, maybe there's not a man with

664
00:37:34,516 --> 00:37:38,036
Speaker 4: a bull whip that's standing over them, but it's in

665
00:37:38,116 --> 00:37:41,316
Speaker 4: some ways, you know, every bit is bad because if

666
00:37:41,356 --> 00:37:45,756
Speaker 4: you refuse to work, then you can be you can

667
00:37:45,796 --> 00:37:48,996
Speaker 4: be given a disciplinary which can extend your sentence. You

668
00:37:49,156 --> 00:37:53,276
Speaker 4: can be placed in solitary, which happens a lot in Alabama.

669
00:37:53,436 --> 00:37:57,036
Speaker 4: So basically, the you know, un says solitary confinement for

670
00:37:57,076 --> 00:37:59,636
Speaker 4: more than fifteen days as torture. They're putting people in

671
00:37:59,676 --> 00:38:03,516
Speaker 4: for years at a time, and you could be moved

672
00:38:03,516 --> 00:38:05,996
Speaker 4: to an even more violent facility than the one that

673
00:38:06,036 --> 00:38:10,276
Speaker 4: you're in. So so it is a coerced forced labor.

674
00:38:10,316 --> 00:38:13,036
Speaker 4: You can't be sick one day, you can't do anything.

675
00:38:13,236 --> 00:38:16,236
Speaker 4: But I think what people don't understand is the prisoner's

676
00:38:16,276 --> 00:38:20,636
Speaker 4: Alabama and some other states, it's not that they're being

677
00:38:20,676 --> 00:38:24,316
Speaker 4: forced to work in the prison. Maybe reasonable people could say, oh,

678
00:38:24,396 --> 00:38:26,436
Speaker 4: maybe you should be sweeping the floor in the prison

679
00:38:26,476 --> 00:38:29,156
Speaker 4: if you're working in the prison, But they also get

680
00:38:29,236 --> 00:38:32,036
Speaker 4: leased out to the governor's mansion where they clean the

681
00:38:32,076 --> 00:38:36,156
Speaker 4: floors and they polish the tiles, and they did the landscaping.

682
00:38:36,476 --> 00:38:40,276
Speaker 4: They also get leased out to road crews, construction crews.

683
00:38:40,716 --> 00:38:43,316
Speaker 4: The state makes money from all of that. They issue

684
00:38:43,316 --> 00:38:45,116
Speaker 4: invoices which you can see in the film. You know,

685
00:38:45,196 --> 00:38:47,716
Speaker 4: this is for X dollars an hour, and then they

686
00:38:47,756 --> 00:38:50,716
Speaker 4: pay them in two dollars a day to do sanitation

687
00:38:50,836 --> 00:38:53,436
Speaker 4: work or something like that, and then they send them

688
00:38:53,436 --> 00:38:56,756
Speaker 4: out to work at McDonald's. They lease them to McDonald's,

689
00:38:57,036 --> 00:38:59,036
Speaker 4: they lease them to Burger King, they lease them to

690
00:38:59,076 --> 00:39:04,716
Speaker 4: the Hyundai Parts Company, they lease them to the Budweiser distributorship. So,

691
00:39:05,036 --> 00:39:07,076
Speaker 4: you know, you go to the state Fair in Alabama,

692
00:39:07,556 --> 00:39:09,476
Speaker 4: you know, we have this kind of amazing show of

693
00:39:09,476 --> 00:39:13,236
Speaker 4: a guy in a corrections uniform who's standing with a

694
00:39:13,316 --> 00:39:17,156
Speaker 4: little girl and he is reaching into the duck pond

695
00:39:17,196 --> 00:39:19,836
Speaker 4: and he takes a little duck out, a little baby duckling,

696
00:39:19,836 --> 00:39:22,876
Speaker 4: and he hands it and the mother's clapping and is

697
00:39:23,036 --> 00:39:29,596
Speaker 4: taking photographs. And the chilling statistic behind that Alabama DOS

698
00:39:29,596 --> 00:39:32,956
Speaker 4: not tracked this, but we tracked it is that if

699
00:39:32,996 --> 00:39:36,516
Speaker 4: you're considered safe enough to go out into the community

700
00:39:36,796 --> 00:39:39,156
Speaker 4: to work at McDonald's or to work at the state fair,

701
00:39:41,276 --> 00:39:45,876
Speaker 4: you have a statistically lower chance of being paroled than

702
00:39:45,916 --> 00:39:47,876
Speaker 4: if you're somebody at a higher custody level.

703
00:39:49,756 --> 00:39:51,916
Speaker 1: Why because you're not economically valuable to them?

704
00:39:52,116 --> 00:39:55,956
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, And they don't track that statistic. And I

705
00:39:55,996 --> 00:39:58,116
Speaker 4: think Steve Marshall might be surprised if I said that,

706
00:39:58,196 --> 00:39:59,956
Speaker 4: or he would say, oh, it doesn't sound right, and

707
00:40:00,036 --> 00:40:03,076
Speaker 4: then we would say, well, you know, there's a reason

708
00:40:03,116 --> 00:40:05,516
Speaker 4: why you don't track that statistic. But it kind of

709
00:40:05,516 --> 00:40:07,476
Speaker 4: makes sense, right the people that are out there, and

710
00:40:07,476 --> 00:40:09,916
Speaker 4: people are all these anecdotal stories of people saying, well,

711
00:40:09,956 --> 00:40:11,796
Speaker 4: I was sick and I woke up in the morning

712
00:40:11,796 --> 00:40:13,556
Speaker 4: and that guy came in and said, you need to

713
00:40:13,556 --> 00:40:15,076
Speaker 4: go out there and make me some money.

714
00:40:15,436 --> 00:40:17,836
Speaker 1: Yeah. How I want to talk a little bit about

715
00:40:17,876 --> 00:40:21,276
Speaker 1: the difference in the way that you and I both

716
00:40:22,196 --> 00:40:27,116
Speaker 1: or your team and my team both began with a

717
00:40:27,156 --> 00:40:31,916
Speaker 1: similar kind of question, which was how can we shed

718
00:40:31,996 --> 00:40:38,756
Speaker 1: light on the practices of this very strange state. And

719
00:40:39,756 --> 00:40:42,716
Speaker 1: I was working in the podcast genre, you're working in

720
00:40:42,756 --> 00:40:46,436
Speaker 1: the documentary genre, and we both of us made very

721
00:40:46,476 --> 00:40:49,396
Speaker 1: very different choices, And I wanted to reflect on one

722
00:40:49,396 --> 00:40:54,596
Speaker 1: of the biggest differences, which is in our Alabama murders,

723
00:40:55,676 --> 00:40:58,876
Speaker 1: we spend an enormous amount of time on the backstory

724
00:40:58,996 --> 00:41:03,476
Speaker 1: of our characters, our protagonists. We really want you to

725
00:41:03,516 --> 00:41:07,636
Speaker 1: know we're telling the story of these two guys on

726
00:41:07,676 --> 00:41:11,036
Speaker 1: death Row. We really want you to know about those guys.

727
00:41:11,236 --> 00:41:14,556
Speaker 1: We talked to them and who they were and what happened,

728
00:41:14,596 --> 00:41:20,796
Speaker 1: you know, et cetera. In your movie documentary, we only

729
00:41:20,916 --> 00:41:26,236
Speaker 1: learn we get that kind of backstory in passing Right.

730
00:41:27,476 --> 00:41:30,716
Speaker 1: There's a moment, for example, where you're talking about James Syles,

731
00:41:30,796 --> 00:41:34,596
Speaker 1: one of the principal characters in the documentary, and we

732
00:41:34,716 --> 00:41:37,916
Speaker 1: learned why was he in one of the highest security

733
00:41:38,916 --> 00:41:42,276
Speaker 1: prisons in Alabama because he got fifteen years for breaking

734
00:41:42,316 --> 00:41:47,996
Speaker 1: into a unoccupied building. It just happens in like ten seconds.

735
00:41:48,036 --> 00:41:49,836
Speaker 1: We learned peace of permission, and then you move on

736
00:41:50,036 --> 00:41:53,516
Speaker 1: right now. It's incredibly powerful in that little form. But

737
00:41:53,596 --> 00:42:01,116
Speaker 1: I'm curious, why do you do things that way? Why

738
00:42:01,196 --> 00:42:06,116
Speaker 1: is it that the form that you've chosen encourages you

739
00:42:06,276 --> 00:42:09,796
Speaker 1: or directs you away from kind of luxury r curiating in

740
00:42:09,876 --> 00:42:13,236
Speaker 1: the backstory the way that we do in the podcast world.

741
00:42:14,396 --> 00:42:16,956
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, if you look at Capturing the

742
00:42:16,956 --> 00:42:21,436
Speaker 4: Freedman's there's just an enormous amount of archival material of

743
00:42:21,476 --> 00:42:25,996
Speaker 4: that family, including going back you know, seventy five years

744
00:42:25,676 --> 00:42:29,076
Speaker 4: to the you know, family members that kind of came

745
00:42:29,156 --> 00:42:33,836
Speaker 4: to this country. And then in the jinks we have

746
00:42:35,396 --> 00:42:38,836
Speaker 4: lots of photographs, but we also have moving pictures of

747
00:42:38,996 --> 00:42:41,236
Speaker 4: Robert Durst when he was a kid, and you get

748
00:42:41,276 --> 00:42:44,236
Speaker 4: to see the awkwardness, You get to see the feeling

749
00:42:44,276 --> 00:42:47,436
Speaker 4: that this is a person who didn't particularly fit in

750
00:42:47,476 --> 00:42:50,836
Speaker 4: and you see him, you know, in modern day, you

751
00:42:50,876 --> 00:42:53,436
Speaker 4: see him twitching. Robert Durst has a lot of twitches.

752
00:42:54,356 --> 00:42:56,636
Speaker 4: And then you see a little you know, film of

753
00:42:56,716 --> 00:42:58,836
Speaker 4: him getting up on the diving board as a kid,

754
00:42:58,996 --> 00:43:01,796
Speaker 4: or you know, somebody doing a movie of him like

755
00:43:01,836 --> 00:43:04,516
Speaker 4: his mother, and you see the same kind of twitches.

756
00:43:04,556 --> 00:43:07,236
Speaker 4: You see the early phases of what his So I

757
00:43:07,236 --> 00:43:13,476
Speaker 4: think that stuff is extremely valuable in this film. I

758
00:43:13,516 --> 00:43:17,596
Speaker 4: think that we had so many you know, there was

759
00:43:18,036 --> 00:43:21,036
Speaker 4: ten pounds of flour in a two pound bag. Always

760
00:43:21,276 --> 00:43:25,596
Speaker 4: it was always so hard to convey the tapestry of

761
00:43:26,236 --> 00:43:30,156
Speaker 4: how we got here and try to incorporate everything from

762
00:43:30,196 --> 00:43:33,836
Speaker 4: the slave labor to the parole to that why they

763
00:43:33,876 --> 00:43:36,036
Speaker 4: weren't letting people out of the system, how they put

764
00:43:36,036 --> 00:43:38,156
Speaker 4: people in the system, how people are when they're in

765
00:43:38,156 --> 00:43:41,356
Speaker 4: the system, and then also try to have a narrative

766
00:43:41,356 --> 00:43:43,796
Speaker 4: thread that was going to bring people along, you know,

767
00:43:43,876 --> 00:43:46,236
Speaker 4: because we used to have this expression just in the

768
00:43:46,236 --> 00:43:50,876
Speaker 4: storytelling process. I always have a blackboard in my office

769
00:43:50,916 --> 00:43:53,276
Speaker 4: and I at the very beginning of this, when we

770
00:43:53,356 --> 00:43:55,276
Speaker 4: started to see what we had, I wrote this like

771
00:43:55,356 --> 00:44:01,316
Speaker 4: mnemonic device. I said, smitwit knows, And that stood for

772
00:44:01,436 --> 00:44:03,756
Speaker 4: how do we not make the saddest movie in the

773
00:44:03,796 --> 00:44:06,956
Speaker 4: world that no one ever sees? And it was a

774
00:44:06,956 --> 00:44:09,476
Speaker 4: real concern because you know, you're dealing with this very

775
00:44:09,556 --> 00:44:12,036
Speaker 4: dark material. So we knew it had to have a

776
00:44:12,156 --> 00:44:15,556
Speaker 4: very compelling narrative. It needed to have you know, we

777
00:44:15,636 --> 00:44:17,756
Speaker 4: need to have a story. And that's like, you know,

778
00:44:17,756 --> 00:44:19,916
Speaker 4: you got to keep telling yourself, what is the story?

779
00:44:20,476 --> 00:44:25,156
Speaker 4: So you only have enough room for this archival material, Yeah,

780
00:44:25,236 --> 00:44:26,876
Speaker 4: you do as much as you can. And also some

781
00:44:26,916 --> 00:44:30,516
Speaker 4: of those people, you know, it's kind of a deprived economy,

782
00:44:30,796 --> 00:44:32,996
Speaker 4: and a lot of these families of people who are

783
00:44:32,996 --> 00:44:36,556
Speaker 4: incarcerated just you know, they don't have like an extra

784
00:44:36,636 --> 00:44:38,396
Speaker 4: room in their house where they have all the photo

785
00:44:38,476 --> 00:44:41,556
Speaker 4: albums or they have a milimeter video or whatever.

786
00:44:41,756 --> 00:44:44,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking, and it's not a critesis of

787
00:44:44,596 --> 00:44:47,076
Speaker 1: it all. I'm marveling about how you made a compelling

788
00:44:47,156 --> 00:44:51,076
Speaker 1: story where I cared about the protagonists even though I

789
00:44:51,156 --> 00:44:54,236
Speaker 1: knew so little about them. That's the puzzle, So I

790
00:44:54,316 --> 00:44:58,996
Speaker 1: came away. So your main character is Stephen Davis, white guy.

791
00:45:00,436 --> 00:45:03,116
Speaker 1: Seems like a very poor family, and we briefly learned

792
00:45:03,156 --> 00:45:06,196
Speaker 1: what his mom tells us in one sentence, why is

793
00:45:06,276 --> 00:45:11,436
Speaker 1: in prison? That's all we get. We don't know when

794
00:45:11,476 --> 00:45:14,156
Speaker 1: has offense occurred. We don't know what his sentence was.

795
00:45:14,356 --> 00:45:16,356
Speaker 1: We don't know what his personality was, we don't know

796
00:45:16,396 --> 00:45:19,396
Speaker 1: anything about him. We barely see him because he's he's

797
00:45:19,436 --> 00:45:24,556
Speaker 1: dead ten minutes in right, whatever it is, and yet

798
00:45:25,436 --> 00:45:29,436
Speaker 1: my concern over him and feelings for him sustain me

799
00:45:29,516 --> 00:45:32,676
Speaker 1: through the entire movie. This is what I'm in. A

800
00:45:32,716 --> 00:45:34,756
Speaker 1: million years, I would never have thought I could tell

801
00:45:34,796 --> 00:45:38,476
Speaker 1: a story like that where my main character is someone

802
00:45:38,556 --> 00:45:43,316
Speaker 1: the audience knows almost nothing about and who exits, and

803
00:45:43,396 --> 00:45:46,036
Speaker 1: yet I still care an hour later. That's what I'm

804
00:45:46,076 --> 00:45:49,036
Speaker 1: trying to get at. How did you do that? Well?

805
00:45:49,076 --> 00:45:50,956
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, as a young storyteller, I think

806
00:45:50,956 --> 00:45:52,756
Speaker 4: you're going to evolve. You know, you're going to learn

807
00:45:53,556 --> 00:45:56,196
Speaker 4: more about how to tell these stories, and I'm looking

808
00:45:56,196 --> 00:45:59,036
Speaker 4: forward to that. But I think, you know, a little

809
00:45:59,076 --> 00:46:01,916
Speaker 4: goes a long way. We do see pictures of him

810
00:46:02,436 --> 00:46:06,316
Speaker 4: as child, and I think that's extremely powerful, you know,

811
00:46:06,356 --> 00:46:09,916
Speaker 4: when you see somebody who you've been trained to believe

812
00:46:10,076 --> 00:46:13,756
Speaker 4: is going to be a hardened, terrible criminal, but we

813
00:46:13,876 --> 00:46:16,116
Speaker 4: sort of know really what he was was a drug addict.

814
00:46:16,716 --> 00:46:20,596
Speaker 4: And now you see a picture of this of this

815
00:46:21,116 --> 00:46:24,476
Speaker 4: young man, you know, with his hair shorn and his

816
00:46:24,596 --> 00:46:31,236
Speaker 4: face pale, and wearing a jumpsuit that's exactly what everybody

817
00:46:31,236 --> 00:46:35,356
Speaker 4: else in the prison wears, and he becomes totally homogenized

818
00:46:35,396 --> 00:46:38,716
Speaker 4: and dehumanized. And then you get to see a photograph

819
00:46:38,796 --> 00:46:43,076
Speaker 4: of him as a child, you know, with a smile

820
00:46:43,236 --> 00:46:46,596
Speaker 4: and just seeing pride on his face, or him starting

821
00:46:46,596 --> 00:46:49,476
Speaker 4: to play little League or something like that, and then

822
00:46:49,516 --> 00:46:52,836
Speaker 4: you're just reminded that I have somebody in my family

823
00:46:52,836 --> 00:46:55,516
Speaker 4: who is playing little league and then ten years later

824
00:46:55,596 --> 00:46:58,236
Speaker 4: was a drug addict, you know, was playing little league,

825
00:46:58,276 --> 00:47:00,756
Speaker 4: and ten years later was an alcoholic and his life

826
00:47:00,836 --> 00:47:03,316
Speaker 4: is falling apart. So you make a connection to those

827
00:47:03,356 --> 00:47:08,076
Speaker 4: people that goes beyond whatever their you know, their crime was.

828
00:47:08,316 --> 00:47:10,756
Speaker 4: But it's you bring up an interesting point that I've

829
00:47:10,796 --> 00:47:16,676
Speaker 4: not talked about regarding this film, which was that there

830
00:47:16,676 --> 00:47:19,436
Speaker 4: were people who came to test screenings of the film

831
00:47:19,516 --> 00:47:26,036
Speaker 4: and literally said the following, I'm uncomfortable if I don't

832
00:47:26,076 --> 00:47:29,636
Speaker 4: know what crime they committed. So could you have some

833
00:47:29,796 --> 00:47:31,996
Speaker 4: kind of a device where as soon as I see

834
00:47:32,036 --> 00:47:36,156
Speaker 4: somebody on screen, there's some kind of a chiron or

835
00:47:36,196 --> 00:47:39,836
Speaker 4: a little designator on the bottom that says murder one,

836
00:47:40,076 --> 00:47:44,116
Speaker 4: or that says burglary, or that says you know. And

837
00:47:44,196 --> 00:47:47,556
Speaker 4: I was so instructive to hear somebody say that, right,

838
00:47:48,076 --> 00:47:50,356
Speaker 4: And of course you could have the debate with them,

839
00:47:50,396 --> 00:47:52,876
Speaker 4: or you could say, so you're saying that it's okay

840
00:47:53,196 --> 00:47:56,356
Speaker 4: for prison guard to beat somebody to death, you're going

841
00:47:56,436 --> 00:47:58,916
Speaker 4: to make the evaluation of whether that's reasonable or not

842
00:47:59,116 --> 00:48:01,836
Speaker 4: based on whether they had a burglary charge or an

843
00:48:01,876 --> 00:48:05,196
Speaker 4: aggravated burglary charge. And then they always said, well, no, no,

844
00:48:05,076 --> 00:48:07,036
Speaker 4: of course, of course, of course, of course. But they're

845
00:48:07,076 --> 00:48:12,476
Speaker 4: revealing that they're begandized. They're revealing that like nobody, everybody

846
00:48:12,516 --> 00:48:15,876
Speaker 4: wants safety. Everybody wants their family to be safe. Everybody doesn't,

847
00:48:15,916 --> 00:48:18,796
Speaker 4: you know, people don't want people to rob their store

848
00:48:18,916 --> 00:48:24,956
Speaker 4: or whatever. But this idea that anything goes if somebody

849
00:48:25,036 --> 00:48:31,356
Speaker 4: is a criminal. We're just going to suspend our humanity.

850
00:48:31,396 --> 00:48:33,876
Speaker 4: We're going to suspend right. And that's the basic idea

851
00:48:33,876 --> 00:48:36,996
Speaker 4: of sort of the constitution is you have this absolutely

852
00:48:37,076 --> 00:48:42,236
Speaker 4: minimal level. You're not supposed to be treated to a

853
00:48:42,596 --> 00:48:45,956
Speaker 4: cruel and unusual punishment, which is already kind of a

854
00:48:45,996 --> 00:48:47,836
Speaker 4: you know, I know it when I see it kind

855
00:48:47,836 --> 00:48:52,956
Speaker 4: of situation. You know, but well, if they committed a crime,

856
00:48:53,916 --> 00:48:56,756
Speaker 4: then maybe they should just be locked up forever. You know,

857
00:48:56,876 --> 00:48:58,916
Speaker 4: doesn't make sense for you know, there are plenty of

858
00:48:58,916 --> 00:49:01,476
Speaker 4: countries where the maximum sentence for any crime is ten years,

859
00:49:01,476 --> 00:49:03,836
Speaker 4: because you say, somebody commits a crime wh they're nineteen

860
00:49:03,916 --> 00:49:08,636
Speaker 4: years old, completely different human being. Eleven years, twelve years later,

861
00:49:09,636 --> 00:49:14,156
Speaker 4: you know, maybe ten years is enough to reset that

862
00:49:14,236 --> 00:49:16,876
Speaker 4: person and try to bring them back into civilization. And

863
00:49:16,956 --> 00:49:19,756
Speaker 4: yet Alabama has these three strikes laws that are put

864
00:49:19,876 --> 00:49:22,436
Speaker 4: locking people up for life without parole.

865
00:49:23,276 --> 00:49:25,916
Speaker 1: But this is a really interesting point which I think

866
00:49:26,036 --> 00:49:27,716
Speaker 1: is worth dwelling on a little bit, which is that

867
00:49:29,476 --> 00:49:33,876
Speaker 1: as storytellers, so the urge when the people in the

868
00:49:33,876 --> 00:49:35,836
Speaker 1: screening said I want to know what crime they committed?

869
00:49:37,036 --> 00:49:41,476
Speaker 1: That that was my urge when I watched it. It's

870
00:49:41,516 --> 00:49:43,316
Speaker 1: a natural human urge to want to know as much

871
00:49:43,356 --> 00:49:49,196
Speaker 1: as possible about the person whose world you're And what

872
00:49:49,236 --> 00:49:51,476
Speaker 1: we don't think about is what are we using that

873
00:49:51,556 --> 00:49:55,436
Speaker 1: information for? And how will that kind of information at

874
00:49:55,476 --> 00:49:58,676
Speaker 1: the margin affect the quality of our moral judgments? And

875
00:49:58,716 --> 00:50:02,196
Speaker 1: what you're saying is the value of that incremental information

876
00:50:02,236 --> 00:50:07,436
Speaker 1: about these characters reduces the quality of our moral judgment.

877
00:50:07,516 --> 00:50:10,236
Speaker 1: It actually contributes to pros. I see the phenomenon you

878
00:50:10,236 --> 00:50:15,196
Speaker 1: were trying to confront, which is, people, regardless of who

879
00:50:15,196 --> 00:50:20,956
Speaker 1: they are, deserve a certain level of respect and decency

880
00:50:20,956 --> 00:50:23,516
Speaker 1: in the way we treat them. Right, there was there

881
00:50:23,596 --> 00:50:25,796
Speaker 1: was an obligation here on the part of the The

882
00:50:26,196 --> 00:50:30,156
Speaker 1: titration and the limitation of information given by the storyteller

883
00:50:30,516 --> 00:50:34,356
Speaker 1: is a hugely consequential question. It's not just a storytelling question.

884
00:50:34,396 --> 00:50:37,236
Speaker 1: It's a moral question. It's what do you want people

885
00:50:37,716 --> 00:50:41,036
Speaker 1: to take home from this story? Right in a profound way,

886
00:50:41,116 --> 00:50:44,316
Speaker 1: and like, so you shouldn't now, I agree with you.

887
00:50:45,076 --> 00:50:46,676
Speaker 1: I had that impulse, and then I thought about it

888
00:50:46,676 --> 00:50:50,516
Speaker 1: and I was like, no, I don't need to know.

889
00:50:50,636 --> 00:50:52,956
Speaker 1: It is not relevant what Stephen Davis was in for.

890
00:50:53,716 --> 00:50:58,036
Speaker 1: It's like it shouldn't matter, or it shouldn't matter with.

891
00:50:58,116 --> 00:50:59,316
Speaker 4: Robert Robert Earl.

892
00:50:59,476 --> 00:51:01,756
Speaker 1: Robert Earl or who is the one who had the

893
00:51:01,836 --> 00:51:02,876
Speaker 1: rat swimming in the toilet?

894
00:51:03,116 --> 00:51:05,676
Speaker 4: Robert Robert Earl. Yeah, like Robert Earl's crime, I mean

895
00:51:05,796 --> 00:51:08,876
Speaker 4: Robert Earl's crime. Yeah, there's a guy and sort of

896
00:51:09,156 --> 00:51:10,876
Speaker 4: speeder that there was a guy trying to run him

897
00:51:10,876 --> 00:51:13,996
Speaker 4: over with a car and he was nineteen and he

898
00:51:14,076 --> 00:51:16,596
Speaker 4: had a gun, which everybody in Alabama has a gun,

899
00:51:16,956 --> 00:51:19,556
Speaker 4: and he shot the guy and he prevented him from

900
00:51:19,596 --> 00:51:22,356
Speaker 4: running him over. In today's world, you know, that's like.

901
00:51:22,636 --> 00:51:23,436
Speaker 1: Stand your ground.

902
00:51:23,596 --> 00:51:26,836
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, So there's no question that would have been

903
00:51:26,836 --> 00:51:29,556
Speaker 4: a self defense case, but for the fact that the

904
00:51:29,596 --> 00:51:33,716
Speaker 4: police went to incredible lengths to try to tie him

905
00:51:33,716 --> 00:51:39,716
Speaker 4: into an earlier altercation that night because nobody died in

906
00:51:39,796 --> 00:51:41,476
Speaker 4: but they were sort of trying to say, well, he

907
00:51:41,516 --> 00:51:44,076
Speaker 4: was involved in a robbery, which he actually wasn't involved in,

908
00:51:45,116 --> 00:51:48,596
Speaker 4: because that enables you to give him a life sentence

909
00:51:48,716 --> 00:51:52,556
Speaker 4: because you can say it's capital murder. So I guess

910
00:51:52,556 --> 00:51:59,516
Speaker 4: our you know, kind of theory going in was maybe

911
00:51:59,556 --> 00:52:01,156
Speaker 4: we don't need to talk about the crimes at all,

912
00:52:01,356 --> 00:52:05,876
Speaker 4: and then we realized that there are certain crimes, right

913
00:52:05,956 --> 00:52:08,276
Speaker 4: and Steve Marshall of the world will want you to

914
00:52:08,316 --> 00:52:10,756
Speaker 4: assume that everybody in there for this right. They say, oh,

915
00:52:11,316 --> 00:52:13,956
Speaker 4: but we've already let out all the non violent criminals.

916
00:52:14,276 --> 00:52:16,956
Speaker 4: That sounds like totally reasonable. Well, yeah, I guess people

917
00:52:16,956 --> 00:52:19,636
Speaker 4: that are non violent should be led out, right. But

918
00:52:19,916 --> 00:52:21,916
Speaker 4: in Alabama, I think in the rest of the country,

919
00:52:22,356 --> 00:52:24,436
Speaker 4: maybe we have like maybe in the federal system, we

920
00:52:24,476 --> 00:52:27,236
Speaker 4: have like four crimes that are considered violent, and in

921
00:52:27,316 --> 00:52:29,916
Speaker 4: Alabama it used to be you know, ten, and then

922
00:52:29,916 --> 00:52:31,796
Speaker 4: it was twenty, and then it was thirty, and now

923
00:52:31,796 --> 00:52:36,636
Speaker 4: it's forty four crimes and they include entering an unoccupied

924
00:52:36,636 --> 00:52:40,796
Speaker 4: building that's considered a violent crime. So by redefining what

925
00:52:40,876 --> 00:52:42,716
Speaker 4: a violent crime is, you get more and more and

926
00:52:42,756 --> 00:52:44,276
Speaker 4: more people, and then you get to stand in front

927
00:52:44,276 --> 00:52:45,796
Speaker 4: of a crowd and say, we've let out all the

928
00:52:46,956 --> 00:52:50,356
Speaker 4: good ones. But Robert Earl, I guess we concluded that

929
00:52:50,436 --> 00:52:53,916
Speaker 4: we had to tell something about some of the crimes

930
00:52:53,956 --> 00:52:56,356
Speaker 4: because we didn't want We've felt like if the audience

931
00:52:56,436 --> 00:52:58,876
Speaker 4: was going to really have to fall in love with

932
00:52:59,796 --> 00:53:02,116
Speaker 4: Robert Earl, which is not hard to do because man's

933
00:53:02,156 --> 00:53:10,036
Speaker 4: a genius and he's an unbelievable human being. Then we

934
00:53:10,076 --> 00:53:13,236
Speaker 4: would have to let people know that he's not Jeffrey Dahmer.

935
00:53:14,236 --> 00:53:16,636
Speaker 4: You know that he's not somebody who's like a serial

936
00:53:16,796 --> 00:53:20,156
Speaker 4: killer or a child killer. And the percentage of people

937
00:53:20,196 --> 00:53:21,876
Speaker 4: that are in prison who are a serial killers or

938
00:53:21,956 --> 00:53:25,796
Speaker 4: child kill is minuscule. But you if you're gonna give

939
00:53:25,796 --> 00:53:29,396
Speaker 4: the audience the desire to fall in love with somebody,

940
00:53:29,636 --> 00:53:34,316
Speaker 4: they're gonna hold back their empathy unless you can just

941
00:53:34,356 --> 00:53:38,076
Speaker 4: give them a little bit of a pass, a little

942
00:53:38,116 --> 00:53:40,916
Speaker 4: bit of a feeling like this is this is not

943
00:53:41,036 --> 00:53:43,596
Speaker 4: one of those people that's just going to be released

944
00:53:43,596 --> 00:53:46,756
Speaker 4: and then immediately go and murder somebody or put somebody

945
00:53:46,796 --> 00:53:47,796
Speaker 4: in front of a bus.

946
00:53:49,796 --> 00:54:03,996
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. What's the stage in the process

947
00:54:03,996 --> 00:54:06,636
Speaker 1: where you're happiest.

948
00:54:06,996 --> 00:54:12,956
Speaker 4: It's a really good question, and I think it it's

949
00:54:12,956 --> 00:54:15,796
Speaker 4: a question you have to ask in a kind of

950
00:54:16,836 --> 00:54:22,876
Speaker 4: longitudinal way because you're having the most fun in the

951
00:54:22,996 --> 00:54:27,596
Speaker 4: very beginning because it's all new, and then you're halfway

952
00:54:27,636 --> 00:54:29,396
Speaker 4: through it and it's like the dark Knight of the

953
00:54:29,396 --> 00:54:31,996
Speaker 4: soul and you think it's a disaster, and then you

954
00:54:32,036 --> 00:54:34,236
Speaker 4: look back and you think, oh my god, you know

955
00:54:34,356 --> 00:54:37,236
Speaker 4: that was the time. And then you get further along

956
00:54:37,276 --> 00:54:39,516
Speaker 4: and you solve a problem, and then that's the time.

957
00:54:39,876 --> 00:54:41,116
Speaker 4: And then you get to the end of the whole

958
00:54:41,116 --> 00:54:42,756
Speaker 4: thing you look back and that's a difference. So I

959
00:54:42,756 --> 00:54:44,836
Speaker 4: guess it's the question, you know, if you ask the

960
00:54:44,916 --> 00:54:46,316
Speaker 4: question over time, did you.

961
00:54:46,236 --> 00:54:49,116
Speaker 1: Have a dark Knight of the soul moment with this documentary?

962
00:54:49,476 --> 00:54:53,396
Speaker 1: It lasted like seven years, so you get by definition,

963
00:54:53,676 --> 00:54:54,956
Speaker 1: But it wasn't so much.

964
00:54:54,996 --> 00:54:57,196
Speaker 4: I mean, there were plenty of timeshe we thought, I

965
00:54:57,316 --> 00:55:00,236
Speaker 4: don't know whether this is going to work, and you

966
00:55:00,276 --> 00:55:04,436
Speaker 4: go to the best advisors you have and you show

967
00:55:04,516 --> 00:55:07,396
Speaker 4: material and you just watch and see how people react,

968
00:55:08,076 --> 00:55:10,996
Speaker 4: and then you do we do these other things, like

969
00:55:11,076 --> 00:55:14,676
Speaker 4: we'll do like a session with a whiteboard, and the

970
00:55:14,756 --> 00:55:17,076
Speaker 4: whole team of people that are working on the film

971
00:55:18,476 --> 00:55:24,116
Speaker 4: will say, Okay, what are the five things that that

972
00:55:24,236 --> 00:55:26,876
Speaker 4: I feel like if I if these aren't in the movie,

973
00:55:27,196 --> 00:55:30,276
Speaker 4: we've made a terrible mistake. And then you end up

974
00:55:30,316 --> 00:55:33,636
Speaker 4: with thirty five things on the board and then you think,

975
00:55:33,676 --> 00:55:35,236
Speaker 4: all right, well, what is this telling me? You just

976
00:55:35,236 --> 00:55:37,076
Speaker 4: try to look at it a million different ways. You know,

977
00:55:37,116 --> 00:55:39,596
Speaker 4: you kind of like, you know, moving around.

978
00:55:39,356 --> 00:55:43,316
Speaker 1: You're deep dark depression on something. You just call me

979
00:55:43,356 --> 00:55:45,956
Speaker 1: because if you just you. I'd never show me if

980
00:55:45,956 --> 00:55:48,836
Speaker 1: you just called me and said, Malcolm, I have cell

981
00:55:48,836 --> 00:55:51,796
Speaker 1: phone video footage from inside Alabama, the Alabama prison system.

982
00:55:51,796 --> 00:55:53,636
Speaker 1: I have a lot of it. But I don't think

983
00:55:53,636 --> 00:55:56,076
Speaker 1: it's going to work. I would have said it's going

984
00:55:56,156 --> 00:55:56,476
Speaker 1: to work.

985
00:55:56,716 --> 00:55:56,916
Speaker 4: Good.

986
00:55:56,996 --> 00:55:59,396
Speaker 1: It's like there's no way for it not to work.

987
00:56:00,756 --> 00:56:05,356
Speaker 1: I think the correct answer. It really is a I mean,

988
00:56:05,396 --> 00:56:09,676
Speaker 1: I really I realized I had been gushing, but it's

989
00:56:09,716 --> 00:56:13,196
Speaker 1: it is. It is an extraordinary piece of work. And

990
00:56:13,316 --> 00:56:18,316
Speaker 1: I'm both complimenting you but also complimenting the prisoners who

991
00:56:18,836 --> 00:56:21,996
Speaker 1: who found a way to get their story out in

992
00:56:22,036 --> 00:56:26,116
Speaker 1: the world. Right there. You're collaborators on this and the

993
00:56:26,196 --> 00:56:31,516
Speaker 1: result is something that is quite unlike any other. Like

994
00:56:31,556 --> 00:56:34,316
Speaker 1: I said, it solves the documentary problem for me. You

995
00:56:34,716 --> 00:56:39,076
Speaker 1: solved it like there's no you're not reconstructing anything.

996
00:56:39,556 --> 00:56:43,836
Speaker 4: It's there's this great moment in Ibsen, you know, in

997
00:56:44,276 --> 00:56:49,396
Speaker 4: a Master Builder, and there's this character named Hilda who

998
00:56:49,476 --> 00:56:52,636
Speaker 4: works with this architect, and the architect is this very

999
00:56:52,676 --> 00:56:56,316
Speaker 4: grand fellow that is building big buildings and all that stuff,

1000
00:56:56,676 --> 00:57:00,996
Speaker 4: and the and then you see her saying at the

1001
00:57:01,076 --> 00:57:03,916
Speaker 4: end of it, her last line as she says the

1002
00:57:03,916 --> 00:57:07,876
Speaker 4: master builder, my master builder, and a lot of people

1003
00:57:07,956 --> 00:57:11,716
Speaker 4: have have have comment about that over the years and

1004
00:57:11,756 --> 00:57:14,196
Speaker 4: written about it that it's really that Hilda at that

1005
00:57:14,316 --> 00:57:21,236
Speaker 4: time in history, like a young brilliant woman, needed another

1006
00:57:21,356 --> 00:57:23,996
Speaker 4: person who thought that they were a great builder. But

1007
00:57:24,156 --> 00:57:26,876
Speaker 4: really it was her ideas that were coming through. And

1008
00:57:26,956 --> 00:57:30,956
Speaker 4: I do feel that way here that they're that the

1009
00:57:31,036 --> 00:57:35,196
Speaker 4: men knew what they needed. It's not I don't want

1010
00:57:35,196 --> 00:57:37,556
Speaker 4: to act like it's working. I mean, Alabama is still

1011
00:57:37,596 --> 00:57:41,916
Speaker 4: this is still an urgent problem. Alabama is still killing

1012
00:57:41,956 --> 00:57:45,156
Speaker 4: people in its custody all the time. I think people

1013
00:57:45,396 --> 00:57:47,396
Speaker 4: right now are dying at the rate of around one

1014
00:57:47,436 --> 00:57:50,316
Speaker 4: a day, and that's just in one system. We have

1015
00:57:50,356 --> 00:57:54,436
Speaker 4: two million people incarcerated around the country. But I do

1016
00:57:54,516 --> 00:57:57,156
Speaker 4: get the feeling that, you know, while we're walking around

1017
00:57:57,156 --> 00:58:02,996
Speaker 4: thinking we're making a film, the men inside are driven

1018
00:58:03,156 --> 00:58:07,036
Speaker 4: by their own brilliance, their own survival instinct, are saying,

1019
00:58:07,076 --> 00:58:10,516
Speaker 4: we need to get this material in front of the public.

1020
00:58:11,036 --> 00:58:13,876
Speaker 4: We're not a position to do it. Let's let's see

1021
00:58:13,876 --> 00:58:16,316
Speaker 4: if this collaboration can work. And that I think is

1022
00:58:16,316 --> 00:58:20,236
Speaker 4: the thing I feel the most grateful for is that

1023
00:58:20,356 --> 00:58:23,356
Speaker 4: we were able to deliver that and the men in

1024
00:58:23,396 --> 00:58:26,556
Speaker 4: the film have seen the film, you know, because we

1025
00:58:26,636 --> 00:58:30,236
Speaker 4: showed it to them on cell phones, and when we

1026
00:58:30,236 --> 00:58:33,756
Speaker 4: were done, I think they were very emotional seeing it.

1027
00:58:33,836 --> 00:58:35,876
Speaker 4: I think we you know, we spent so much time

1028
00:58:35,916 --> 00:58:38,716
Speaker 4: and showed it to them talk to them about what

1029
00:58:38,756 --> 00:58:41,476
Speaker 4: we were making. Because it's such a responsibility to say,

1030
00:58:41,916 --> 00:58:45,396
Speaker 4: you know, hey, you guys, you've been running a non violent,

1031
00:58:46,716 --> 00:58:50,876
Speaker 4: organized protest movement that includes work stoppages and hunger strikes,

1032
00:58:51,316 --> 00:58:53,676
Speaker 4: and somehow we're going to characterize that, and we're going

1033
00:58:53,676 --> 00:58:55,316
Speaker 4: to put that on television or we're going to put

1034
00:58:55,356 --> 00:58:59,876
Speaker 4: that in movie theaters. But it's really their story. So

1035
00:59:00,676 --> 00:59:02,796
Speaker 4: you have to be in constant dialogue with them about

1036
00:59:02,796 --> 00:59:05,756
Speaker 4: what that is, including now, you know, telling them what

1037
00:59:05,796 --> 00:59:07,996
Speaker 4: we're doing and what we're thinking and trying to you know,

1038
00:59:08,036 --> 00:59:12,236
Speaker 4: we created this sort of whistleblower defense committee of really

1039
00:59:12,356 --> 00:59:15,596
Speaker 4: smart lawyers because we knew that these men have been

1040
00:59:15,636 --> 00:59:19,716
Speaker 4: retaliated against time after time after time, and so they

1041
00:59:19,836 --> 00:59:21,916
Speaker 4: jump in and they'll go and do wellness checks on

1042
00:59:21,956 --> 00:59:24,956
Speaker 4: the men. You're in a relationship with them forever. You know.

1043
00:59:24,996 --> 00:59:27,156
Speaker 4: It's a little different, right because you're I mean, maybe

1044
00:59:27,156 --> 00:59:29,716
Speaker 4: you'll choose to go and have coffee with Steve Marshall

1045
00:59:29,716 --> 00:59:32,196
Speaker 4: once a week if you really enjoy his company. But

1046
00:59:32,516 --> 00:59:33,836
Speaker 4: you know, most of the people that are in your

1047
00:59:33,876 --> 00:59:37,756
Speaker 4: film are kind of already you know, you're not going

1048
00:59:37,796 --> 00:59:40,996
Speaker 4: back to Alabama much and you're not going to go

1049
00:59:41,076 --> 00:59:44,076
Speaker 4: talk to the to the people that are in the story.

1050
00:59:44,116 --> 00:59:46,916
Speaker 4: But these guys are like they're in my life. Happily,

1051
00:59:46,956 --> 00:59:48,996
Speaker 4: I feel very lucky that they're in my life, in

1052
00:59:49,076 --> 00:59:49,796
Speaker 4: Charlotte's life.

1053
00:59:50,196 --> 00:59:54,236
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Andrew, we are we are out of time.

1054
00:59:54,916 --> 00:59:57,196
Speaker 1: I want to thank you very much both for coming

1055
00:59:57,236 --> 01:00:00,676
Speaker 1: to on AirFest and singing with me, and also for

1056
01:00:00,756 --> 01:00:04,076
Speaker 1: the movie which has you know, as the best art does,

1057
01:00:04,116 --> 01:00:06,756
Speaker 1: has left America at a little better off than it

1058
01:00:06,796 --> 01:00:07,276
Speaker 1: was before.

1059
01:00:07,956 --> 01:00:09,796
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, really, appre Shadow.

1060
01:00:22,116 --> 01:00:25,596
Speaker 1: Revision's History is produced by Lucy Sullivan, Bend, daph Haffrey,

1061
01:00:25,796 --> 01:00:29,556
Speaker 1: and Nina Bird Lawrence. Our editor is Karen Chakerji. Our

1062
01:00:29,636 --> 01:00:33,356
Speaker 1: executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence.

1063
01:00:33,636 --> 01:00:37,916
Speaker 1: Original music by Luis Kira, Mixing and mastering by Jake Krsky.

1064
01:00:38,796 --> 01:00:39,716
Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Glabla.