WEBVTT - Will Rwanda ever see true democracy?

0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:07.600
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.840
<v Speaker 2>Rwanda goes to the polls on Monday, with President Paul

0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:19.880
<v Speaker 2>Kagame looking to extend his twenty four years in office.

0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.800
<v Speaker 2>As a rebel leader in the Civil War, he helped

0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:27.240
<v Speaker 2>free the country from a genocidal regime and came to

0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.600
<v Speaker 2>power shortly after. But since becoming president, he's shown little

0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.839
<v Speaker 2>sign of wanting to give it up. Opponents of Kagame

0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.279
<v Speaker 2>have been arrested and barred from standing against him.

0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.440
<v Speaker 3>Randon, opposition figure a big Twin and Gabihai won't be

0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.800
<v Speaker 3>able to run in the upcoming presidential election on July fifteenth,

0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.159
<v Speaker 3>since our civil rights haven't been restored by the judges

0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:49.800
<v Speaker 3>of the Icodes of Kigali.

0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.040
<v Speaker 2>Though human rights groups and opposition activists increasingly face pressure

0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:58.240
<v Speaker 2>from his government, Kagame's developmental transformation of the country has

0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.840
<v Speaker 2>been lauded by many Rwanda and many in Europe and

0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:05.000
<v Speaker 2>the USC Kagame as an important regional ally.

0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.440
<v Speaker 4>Thank you mart It's a great honor to be with

0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:13.920
<v Speaker 4>President dam We are trade with Rwanda and just general,

0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:15.720
<v Speaker 4>I would say great relationships.

0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:18.000
<v Speaker 5>Half do you take government.

0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:23.400
<v Speaker 2>We are absolutely delighted and excited about our partnership.

0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:24.120
<v Speaker 5>With Rwanda.

0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:26.480
<v Speaker 6>Dipple.

0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:28.959
<v Speaker 5>Thank you so much for your words and for the

0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:33.920
<v Speaker 5>comments you've just made, mister President, Ministers, ladies and gentlemen, friends,

0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:38.280
<v Speaker 5>it's a special honor and responsibility to be in Rwanda among.

0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:43.640
<v Speaker 6>The about you.

0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.200
<v Speaker 2>This week, we want to take a deeper look at

0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.800
<v Speaker 2>Kagame's rule and attempts by the opposition to fight back.

0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.040
<v Speaker 7>Gowanda is not a freak country. We don't harm anything.

0:01:55.240 --> 0:02:03.520
<v Speaker 7>Questions people, are you go after the genocide? Miners may

0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:04.480
<v Speaker 7>form genocide.

0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:06.520
<v Speaker 8>They have nothing to do with better side.

0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.359
<v Speaker 7>They need a room to express in mind, they need

0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:13.320
<v Speaker 7>the room to see how can you reform the governess

0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:14.520
<v Speaker 7>in Rwanda.

0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm Jennifer's Abasaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast,

0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.959
<v Speaker 2>bringing you one story each week from the continent driving

0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.320
<v Speaker 2>the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg

0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:31.120
<v Speaker 2>can provide. Now on Bloomberg, we've just published a detailed

0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:35.120
<v Speaker 2>look at the kagame governments decades long suppression of opposition

0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:39.440
<v Speaker 2>parties and that's come from reporter Simon Marx and our

0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:43.400
<v Speaker 2>deputy Managing editor for Africa, Neil Munchi, and they're both

0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:45.280
<v Speaker 2>joining us now on the podcast.

0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:46.639
<v Speaker 8>Hi guys, thanks for joining.

0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:50.520
<v Speaker 2>Hi, so let's just start with Kagame and how he

0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:52.160
<v Speaker 2>came to power in the first place.

0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:53.720
<v Speaker 8>Neil, maybe you can walk us through that.

0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.240
<v Speaker 1>Paul Kagama is really a tootemic figure in Rwand in history.

0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:01.320
<v Speaker 1>He was a rebel commander in the Liberation Army that

0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.800
<v Speaker 1>fought through the bush to free Rwanda and end the

0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:10.799
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety four Rwanda genocide, which killed eight hundred thousand people,

0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.560
<v Speaker 1>mostly Tutsi's the ethnic group that Kagami is from as well.

0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.520
<v Speaker 1>He then became the vice president and Defense minister, but

0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:20.919
<v Speaker 1>was essentially the de facto leader from nineteen ninety four

0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:26.359
<v Speaker 1>of this small Central African country, and in two thousand

0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:30.000
<v Speaker 1>he was first officially elected president and he has since

0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.639
<v Speaker 1>then run the country with the pretty iron fist, routinely

0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.400
<v Speaker 1>getting re elected with ninety three plus percent of the vote.

0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.840
<v Speaker 1>And he's up for election again on the fifteenth, then

0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.440
<v Speaker 1>there's very little doubt he's going to get anything less

0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:45.800
<v Speaker 1>than ninety eight percent.

0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, and Neil, I mean just taking us back to

0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:53.120
<v Speaker 2>what happened post the genocidal period for the country and

0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.320
<v Speaker 2>was there any discussion, Was there any talk that the

0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:58.480
<v Speaker 2>country was actually going to move in the path of

0:03:58.520 --> 0:03:59.360
<v Speaker 2>democracy I.

0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Think a really important thing to understand about Rwanda and

0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.320
<v Speaker 1>Kagami's place in it is that this is a country

0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.680
<v Speaker 1>that was essentially left for dead right in ninety four.

0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.360
<v Speaker 1>The world had turned its back on it, and every

0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.360
<v Speaker 1>institution in the country was destroyed. Right, So they came

0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:19.640
<v Speaker 1>together in a way to re establish the state. But

0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.920
<v Speaker 1>it was clear from the beginning that many Rwandans, especially

0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.960
<v Speaker 1>in the Tutsi minority that was targeted in the genocide,

0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:32.800
<v Speaker 1>felt that a return to traditional democracy, if that's what

0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.039
<v Speaker 1>Rwanda had before, was not going to cut it given

0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:41.200
<v Speaker 1>what had happened. And while they talked about reconciliation and

0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:46.080
<v Speaker 1>they erased any talk of ethnicity, which was the cause

0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.440
<v Speaker 1>of the genocide, in public life, it was pretty clear

0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.360
<v Speaker 1>from the beginning that Paul Kagami was going to run

0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.400
<v Speaker 1>the place, and he was going to run it in

0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:58.560
<v Speaker 1>a particularly authoritarian way, and that many Rwandans, to be fair,

0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.840
<v Speaker 1>were quite happy with that, and many are still happy

0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:02.400
<v Speaker 1>about it today.

0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:02.680
<v Speaker 8>Yeah.

0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:04.720
<v Speaker 2>I was going to say that as well, that that

0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.280
<v Speaker 2>is really the feeling on the ground, and just in

0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.920
<v Speaker 2>the time period too, we've seen the West really then

0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.320
<v Speaker 2>cozy up to Kagame over the years.

0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:15.880
<v Speaker 8>How did that change happen? I mean, what was it

0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:19.240
<v Speaker 8>that they were so keen to get close to him?

0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:24.240
<v Speaker 1>For if you traveled to Kigali, the capital of Ruanda,

0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.440
<v Speaker 1>you'll immediately be very impressed. The roads are especially in

0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.360
<v Speaker 1>comparison to other African capitals, including much richer countries. The

0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:36.080
<v Speaker 1>roads are all paved, the police do not ask for bribes.

0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:40.240
<v Speaker 1>It's clean and smooth and everything runs efficiently. There's power,

0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:42.720
<v Speaker 1>there's internet, there's all these things that are lacking in

0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.320
<v Speaker 1>a lot of other African countries. And Kagami did all

0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.440
<v Speaker 1>that with a lot of Western funding. But the reason

0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.360
<v Speaker 1>that the Western funding kept coming is because when donors

0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.719
<v Speaker 1>visited the country, they could see their dollars in action. Right,

0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:56.839
<v Speaker 1>It's like, we gave him money and now they have roads.

0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.200
<v Speaker 1>We gave money, and now the maternal mortality rate has

0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.520
<v Speaker 1>come down. The country remains still a very poor country

0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:08.400
<v Speaker 1>along the lines of Mali South Sudan, like other traditionally

0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.880
<v Speaker 1>low income countries, but again it comes from this place

0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:13.719
<v Speaker 1>where this was a country left for dead in ninety

0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:17.080
<v Speaker 1>four and thirty years later, Kigali is probably one of

0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.560
<v Speaker 1>the most developed capitals on the continent.

0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.480
<v Speaker 8>In a relatively small country on the.

0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:26.120
<v Speaker 1>Continent exactly, with no natural resources. It's surrounded by all

0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.120
<v Speaker 1>these countries that have cobalt and copper and oil and gas,

0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:30.440
<v Speaker 1>and it's got none of it.

0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.320
<v Speaker 2>And yet despite all that, in Neil, there are still people.

0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:38.440
<v Speaker 2>There are still parts of the world that criticize Rwanda

0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.680
<v Speaker 2>and criticize Kagame in particular, and pushback against any sort

0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:42.920
<v Speaker 2>of celebration of him.

0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:46.000
<v Speaker 8>I mean, what is it that the naysayers say so?

0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.080
<v Speaker 1>I guess the argument is that the bet that kind

0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.400
<v Speaker 1>of Kagame makes, the Deally makes with the people is

0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:54.480
<v Speaker 1>you get development but not democracy.

0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:54.880
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.120
<v Speaker 1>The government would argue that, yes, we are a democracy,

0:06:57.120 --> 0:06:58.880
<v Speaker 1>et cetera. But if you're getting ninety eight percent of

0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.280
<v Speaker 1>the vote, I think it's valid to raise questions about that.

0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:02.520
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:07.480
<v Speaker 1>The way that he has maintained power, according to critics,

0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:12.760
<v Speaker 1>is suppressing dissent. There is no real opposition. Their allegations

0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:20.040
<v Speaker 1>of disappearances of critics, assassinations, exile, imprisonment. There is no

0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.480
<v Speaker 1>free press, there is none of the sort of hallmarks

0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.360
<v Speaker 1>of traditional liberal democracy exist in Rwanda.

0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.960
<v Speaker 2>When we come back, we'll talk about the opposition in

0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:32.160
<v Speaker 2>Rwanda and whether there could be hope for free and

0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.160
<v Speaker 2>fair elections, like Neil is just talking about in the future.

0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:45.560
<v Speaker 2>We'll talk about that next. So Simon, thanks for sticking around.

0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:47.640
<v Speaker 2>So in your piece, you tell the story of how

0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.920
<v Speaker 2>activists in the country have been trying.

0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.720
<v Speaker 8>To get help from all over the world to try and.

0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:57.080
<v Speaker 2>Really challenge this regime that we've been talking about. Can

0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.720
<v Speaker 2>you tell us who they've been speaking to it and

0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:01.080
<v Speaker 2>what exactly they're saying.

0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:08.080
<v Speaker 9>Yeah, So the Rwandan opposition and activists are very widespread

0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.920
<v Speaker 9>throughout the entire world. There's a huge Rwandan diaspora on

0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.760
<v Speaker 9>many continents.

0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.640
<v Speaker 6>In many states in the US, throughout Europe and.

0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:21.360
<v Speaker 9>Elsewhere, and they form this sort of loose group, not

0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:26.560
<v Speaker 9>always the most organized, but they're doing many different things

0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.040
<v Speaker 9>to try and get a foot in and a.

0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:30.040
<v Speaker 6>Voice in Rwanda.

0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:33.840
<v Speaker 9>So one group, for example, would be the Rwandan People's

0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:35.160
<v Speaker 9>Government in Exile.

0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:36.600
<v Speaker 6>That's a group of.

0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.120
<v Speaker 9>Politicians that have not been allowed to register for the

0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:44.240
<v Speaker 9>election on July fifteenth, but as a result have formed

0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:48.360
<v Speaker 9>their own government with a whole long list of different

0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:54.280
<v Speaker 9>ministers who are drafting proposals for Rwanda in exile. There

0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:59.000
<v Speaker 9>are also large opposition figures such as Victoire in Gabiri,

0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:02.560
<v Speaker 9>who has been banned from running in this election and

0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.400
<v Speaker 9>even being jailed previously. She's now out of jail, but

0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.080
<v Speaker 9>she's been accused of denying the genocide that took place

0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:12.280
<v Speaker 9>in nineteen ninety four by the government.

0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:15.400
<v Speaker 6>So it's an uphill battle really for these people.

0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.880
<v Speaker 9>There is a large lobby going on, especially in cities

0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.280
<v Speaker 9>like Brussels. I was there recently, and many figures in

0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.920
<v Speaker 9>the Rwandan the ESPER talk to officials in Brussels to

0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.520
<v Speaker 9>try and convince them of the abuses taking place in Rwanda.

0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.000
<v Speaker 9>But it's a huge uphill task for them because there

0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.360
<v Speaker 9>is a lot of support for his regime out there.

0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.559
<v Speaker 2>And simon what happens to those that actually do try

0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:44.720
<v Speaker 2>to oppose Gagame, especially publicly. Are they still getting into

0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.000
<v Speaker 2>trouble even when they leave the country if they're a

0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:48.360
<v Speaker 2>part of that the diaspora.

0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.120
<v Speaker 8>What are the some of the incidents that you can

0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:51.079
<v Speaker 8>talk us through.

0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:55.079
<v Speaker 9>In the story, we really focus on one case of

0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.840
<v Speaker 9>a man called Eugene Gasana. He's the former Rwandan ambassador

0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.480
<v Speaker 9>to the UN. He was appointed in two thousand and

0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:08.240
<v Speaker 9>nine and remained there for several years until twenty fifteen.

0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.240
<v Speaker 9>He was a really close friend of Kagami. He helped

0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:14.280
<v Speaker 9>him when Kagami was a rebel and seeking to come

0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:19.679
<v Speaker 9>to power and overthrow the Hutu regime. He was not

0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.760
<v Speaker 9>in agreement with Paul kagam over his decision to change

0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:24.760
<v Speaker 9>the constitution which would allow him.

0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:28.960
<v Speaker 6>To stay in power, and the backlash was huge. He

0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:33.200
<v Speaker 6>lost his position in government. He was forced to.

0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.000
<v Speaker 9>Apply for asylum in the US, which it was granted,

0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:43.080
<v Speaker 9>and later on he was accused of rape by a

0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.959
<v Speaker 9>member of his office in New York.

0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:50.079
<v Speaker 6>It's a very sensitive case. He claims that it is

0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.839
<v Speaker 6>politically motivated.

0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:57.000
<v Speaker 9>And Kagame's role in this case is difficult to put

0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:01.000
<v Speaker 9>your hands on. But his lawyer says that the government

0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.920
<v Speaker 9>of Rwanda is behind this case and that it's completely

0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.280
<v Speaker 9>politically motivated. And it's also true that the court in

0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.120
<v Speaker 9>New York actually discarded the rape case for a lack

0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:15.600
<v Speaker 9>of evidence. In twenty twenty one, Interpol reviewed Rwanda's claims

0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.920
<v Speaker 9>and found, and I quote here from their investigation into this,

0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:23.360
<v Speaker 9>that there was a predominant political dimension to the case,

0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.960
<v Speaker 9>in which case the red notice against mister Gasana was

0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:28.840
<v Speaker 9>actually removed.

0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:30.760
<v Speaker 6>So Rwanda, it.

0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:34.280
<v Speaker 9>Must be said, obviously denies that this is a politically

0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.960
<v Speaker 9>motivated case and that they have anything to do with it.

0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:39.679
<v Speaker 6>Again, this only.

0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:44.120
<v Speaker 9>Goes to show what happened to people who are willing

0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:48.560
<v Speaker 9>to come out and criticize the president's motives.

0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:52.600
<v Speaker 2>And simon you mentioned there a few international bodies when

0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.240
<v Speaker 2>it comes to the people who are trying to oppose

0:11:55.880 --> 0:12:00.439
<v Speaker 2>the regime. Is there optimism that there will be a

0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.520
<v Speaker 2>time when some of these human rights abuse accusations will

0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.280
<v Speaker 2>be challenged. What is the sentiment really with the community.

0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.360
<v Speaker 9>I think when you speak to human rights groups, namely

0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.320
<v Speaker 9>Human Rights Watch, AMSTE International, these kind of groups who

0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.280
<v Speaker 9>are really documenting.

0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.640
<v Speaker 6>What's happening inside Rwanda in terms of people who have

0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.000
<v Speaker 6>allegedly been.

0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:25.160
<v Speaker 9>Disappeared or assassinated, or people who have had to flee

0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:31.040
<v Speaker 9>the country, they see a huge schism basically between.

0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.200
<v Speaker 6>What's happening inside the country.

0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.200
<v Speaker 9>And what people outside of the country.

0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.080
<v Speaker 6>View as what's important.

0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:42.040
<v Speaker 9>Really, Kagami does have a lot of vested interests and

0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:46.800
<v Speaker 9>huge support internationally. He's helping Western governments with their immigration policy.

0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:51.320
<v Speaker 9>He is also policing and offering up soldiers in the

0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:56.000
<v Speaker 9>foremost it's army and peacekeepers in places where Western countries don't.

0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.840
<v Speaker 6>Want to send their troops. So really he's bringing so

0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:03.120
<v Speaker 6>much to the table. He's also created a fairly positive.

0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.640
<v Speaker 9>Business environment, and I know, you know, the European Union

0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:11.400
<v Speaker 9>have helped him bring, for example, the pharmaceutical industry to Kigale.

0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:16.000
<v Speaker 9>Diplomats I speak to have a sort of glowing view

0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.960
<v Speaker 9>of Kagame, and it really sits in direct opposition to

0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:25.679
<v Speaker 9>how human rights activists and also the Rwandan opposition figures

0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.320
<v Speaker 9>would view the regime. It really is a Jacqueline Hard situation.

0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.040
<v Speaker 9>One thing I'd like to point out is that the

0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:36.560
<v Speaker 9>Kagami government has categorically denied over the years having played

0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.280
<v Speaker 9>any role in the disappearance or assassination of its critics

0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:44.720
<v Speaker 9>or defectors from the government, and stands by being an open,

0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:46.960
<v Speaker 9>inclusive society for everyone.

0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.040
<v Speaker 2>And so then just going back to the election that

0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.440
<v Speaker 2>is coming up on Monday, we largely do know what

0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.960
<v Speaker 2>the outcome will be, but what is maybe the unknown

0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:01.400
<v Speaker 2>in Kagame's next term. We know how long he is

0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:02.640
<v Speaker 2>wanting to stay in office.

0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.120
<v Speaker 9>So several years ago, the Rwandan government changed the constitution

0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.600
<v Speaker 9>allowing President Kagami to stay in power at least until

0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.000
<v Speaker 9>two thousand and thirty four, So that's another decade from

0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.280
<v Speaker 9>now that would allow him to be re elected in

0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.000
<v Speaker 9>July as we speak, and go on and be re

0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.080
<v Speaker 9>elected once again for a fifth term should he indeed run.

0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.520
<v Speaker 9>But yes, the question of succession in Rwanda is really

0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.800
<v Speaker 9>the million dollar question. There's a lot of concern over

0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:35.040
<v Speaker 9>what would happen if Indeka Game were to step down

0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.680
<v Speaker 9>or what to die Even that, it really begs the

0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.320
<v Speaker 9>question as to what would happen terms of stability in

0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:41.920
<v Speaker 9>the country.

0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.080
<v Speaker 10>Considering we know that the Tutsi part of the population

0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.640
<v Speaker 10>is around fifteen percent and the Hutu about eighty five percent,

0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.440
<v Speaker 10>it's a huge question mark for the country.

0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.680
<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much, Simon and Neil for your reporting and

0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:56.560
<v Speaker 2>your insights today.

0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:57.640
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for having us.

0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:02.520
<v Speaker 2>Thanks When any leader wins an election with ninety eight

0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.160
<v Speaker 2>percent of the vote, there are bound to be questions

0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:09.440
<v Speaker 2>about the state of the democracy. Thirty years since the

0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.640
<v Speaker 2>Rwandan genocide. The country's ability to rebuild explains why the

0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.080
<v Speaker 2>West has been so keen to work with Kagame.

0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.040
<v Speaker 8>But with growing human rights concerns raised.

0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.320
<v Speaker 2>By activists inside and outside of the country, many have

0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:27.240
<v Speaker 2>asked whether the country's prosperity has come at too high

0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:33.160
<v Speaker 2>of a cost. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley.

0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.640
<v Speaker 2>Don't forget to follow and review this show wherever you

0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.440
<v Speaker 2>usually get your podcast. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks as always

0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:41.080
<v Speaker 2>for listening