1
00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:07,600
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

2
00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,840
Speaker 2: Rwanda goes to the polls on Monday, with President Paul

3
00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:19,880
Speaker 2: Kagame looking to extend his twenty four years in office.

4
00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,800
Speaker 2: As a rebel leader in the Civil War, he helped

5
00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,240
Speaker 2: free the country from a genocidal regime and came to

6
00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,600
Speaker 2: power shortly after. But since becoming president, he's shown little

7
00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,839
Speaker 2: sign of wanting to give it up. Opponents of Kagame

8
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,279
Speaker 2: have been arrested and barred from standing against him.

9
00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,440
Speaker 3: Randon, opposition figure a big Twin and Gabihai won't be

10
00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,800
Speaker 3: able to run in the upcoming presidential election on July fifteenth,

11
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,159
Speaker 3: since our civil rights haven't been restored by the judges

12
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 3: of the Icodes of Kigali.

13
00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:54,040
Speaker 2: Though human rights groups and opposition activists increasingly face pressure

14
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:58,240
Speaker 2: from his government, Kagame's developmental transformation of the country has

15
00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,840
Speaker 2: been lauded by many Rwanda and many in Europe and

16
00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,000
Speaker 2: the USC Kagame as an important regional ally.

17
00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,440
Speaker 4: Thank you mart It's a great honor to be with

18
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:13,920
Speaker 4: President dam We are trade with Rwanda and just general,

19
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,720
Speaker 4: I would say great relationships.

20
00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,000
Speaker 5: Half do you take government.

21
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:23,400
Speaker 2: We are absolutely delighted and excited about our partnership.

22
00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:24,120
Speaker 5: With Rwanda.

23
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:26,480
Speaker 6: Dipple.

24
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:28,959
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for your words and for the

25
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 5: comments you've just made, mister President, Ministers, ladies and gentlemen, friends,

26
00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,280
Speaker 5: it's a special honor and responsibility to be in Rwanda among.

27
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,640
Speaker 6: The about you.

28
00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 2: This week, we want to take a deeper look at

29
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,800
Speaker 2: Kagame's rule and attempts by the opposition to fight back.

30
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 7: Gowanda is not a freak country. We don't harm anything.

31
00:01:55,240 --> 00:02:03,520
Speaker 7: Questions people, are you go after the genocide? Miners may

32
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:04,480
Speaker 7: form genocide.

33
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,520
Speaker 8: They have nothing to do with better side.

34
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,359
Speaker 7: They need a room to express in mind, they need

35
00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 7: the room to see how can you reform the governess

36
00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:14,520
Speaker 7: in Rwanda.

37
00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,680
Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer's Abasaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast,

38
00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,959
Speaker 2: bringing you one story each week from the continent driving

39
00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,320
Speaker 2: the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg

40
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:31,120
Speaker 2: can provide. Now on Bloomberg, we've just published a detailed

41
00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,120
Speaker 2: look at the kagame governments decades long suppression of opposition

42
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,440
Speaker 2: parties and that's come from reporter Simon Marx and our

43
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,400
Speaker 2: deputy Managing editor for Africa, Neil Munchi, and they're both

44
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,280
Speaker 2: joining us now on the podcast.

45
00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:46,639
Speaker 8: Hi guys, thanks for joining.

46
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,520
Speaker 2: Hi, so let's just start with Kagame and how he

47
00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,160
Speaker 2: came to power in the first place.

48
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:53,720
Speaker 8: Neil, maybe you can walk us through that.

49
00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,240
Speaker 1: Paul Kagama is really a tootemic figure in Rwand in history.

50
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,320
Speaker 1: He was a rebel commander in the Liberation Army that

51
00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,800
Speaker 1: fought through the bush to free Rwanda and end the

52
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,799
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four Rwanda genocide, which killed eight hundred thousand people,

53
00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 1: mostly Tutsi's the ethnic group that Kagami is from as well.

54
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,520
Speaker 1: He then became the vice president and Defense minister, but

55
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:20,919
Speaker 1: was essentially the de facto leader from nineteen ninety four

56
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:26,359
Speaker 1: of this small Central African country, and in two thousand

57
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 1: he was first officially elected president and he has since

58
00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,639
Speaker 1: then run the country with the pretty iron fist, routinely

59
00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,400
Speaker 1: getting re elected with ninety three plus percent of the vote.

60
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,840
Speaker 1: And he's up for election again on the fifteenth, then

61
00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,440
Speaker 1: there's very little doubt he's going to get anything less

62
00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 1: than ninety eight percent.

63
00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,040
Speaker 2: Well, and Neil, I mean just taking us back to

64
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,120
Speaker 2: what happened post the genocidal period for the country and

65
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 2: was there any discussion, Was there any talk that the

66
00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,480
Speaker 2: country was actually going to move in the path of

67
00:03:58,520 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 2: democracy I.

68
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 1: Think a really important thing to understand about Rwanda and

69
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 1: Kagami's place in it is that this is a country

70
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,680
Speaker 1: that was essentially left for dead right in ninety four.

71
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,360
Speaker 1: The world had turned its back on it, and every

72
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 1: institution in the country was destroyed. Right, So they came

73
00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:19,640
Speaker 1: together in a way to re establish the state. But

74
00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,920
Speaker 1: it was clear from the beginning that many Rwandans, especially

75
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,960
Speaker 1: in the Tutsi minority that was targeted in the genocide,

76
00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,800
Speaker 1: felt that a return to traditional democracy, if that's what

77
00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,039
Speaker 1: Rwanda had before, was not going to cut it given

78
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:41,200
Speaker 1: what had happened. And while they talked about reconciliation and

79
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:46,080
Speaker 1: they erased any talk of ethnicity, which was the cause

80
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,440
Speaker 1: of the genocide, in public life, it was pretty clear

81
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,360
Speaker 1: from the beginning that Paul Kagami was going to run

82
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,400
Speaker 1: the place, and he was going to run it in

83
00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,560
Speaker 1: a particularly authoritarian way, and that many Rwandans, to be fair,

84
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,840
Speaker 1: were quite happy with that, and many are still happy

85
00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:02,400
Speaker 1: about it today.

86
00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:02,680
Speaker 8: Yeah.

87
00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,720
Speaker 2: I was going to say that as well, that that

88
00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,280
Speaker 2: is really the feeling on the ground, and just in

89
00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,920
Speaker 2: the time period too, we've seen the West really then

90
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 2: cozy up to Kagame over the years.

91
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,880
Speaker 8: How did that change happen? I mean, what was it

92
00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,240
Speaker 8: that they were so keen to get close to him?

93
00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:24,240
Speaker 1: For if you traveled to Kigali, the capital of Ruanda,

94
00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,440
Speaker 1: you'll immediately be very impressed. The roads are especially in

95
00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,360
Speaker 1: comparison to other African capitals, including much richer countries. The

96
00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 1: roads are all paved, the police do not ask for bribes.

97
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,240
Speaker 1: It's clean and smooth and everything runs efficiently. There's power,

98
00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,720
Speaker 1: there's internet, there's all these things that are lacking in

99
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,320
Speaker 1: a lot of other African countries. And Kagami did all

100
00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,440
Speaker 1: that with a lot of Western funding. But the reason

101
00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,360
Speaker 1: that the Western funding kept coming is because when donors

102
00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,719
Speaker 1: visited the country, they could see their dollars in action. Right,

103
00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,839
Speaker 1: It's like, we gave him money and now they have roads.

104
00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,200
Speaker 1: We gave money, and now the maternal mortality rate has

105
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,520
Speaker 1: come down. The country remains still a very poor country

106
00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,400
Speaker 1: along the lines of Mali South Sudan, like other traditionally

107
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 1: low income countries, but again it comes from this place

108
00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,719
Speaker 1: where this was a country left for dead in ninety

109
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,080
Speaker 1: four and thirty years later, Kigali is probably one of

110
00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,560
Speaker 1: the most developed capitals on the continent.

111
00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,480
Speaker 8: In a relatively small country on the.

112
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 1: Continent exactly, with no natural resources. It's surrounded by all

113
00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,120
Speaker 1: these countries that have cobalt and copper and oil and gas,

114
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:30,440
Speaker 1: and it's got none of it.

115
00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,320
Speaker 2: And yet despite all that, in Neil, there are still people.

116
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,440
Speaker 2: There are still parts of the world that criticize Rwanda

117
00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,680
Speaker 2: and criticize Kagame in particular, and pushback against any sort

118
00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:42,920
Speaker 2: of celebration of him.

119
00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,000
Speaker 8: I mean, what is it that the naysayers say so?

120
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,080
Speaker 1: I guess the argument is that the bet that kind

121
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 1: of Kagame makes, the Deally makes with the people is

122
00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,480
Speaker 1: you get development but not democracy.

123
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 3: Right.

124
00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,120
Speaker 1: The government would argue that, yes, we are a democracy,

125
00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:58,880
Speaker 1: et cetera. But if you're getting ninety eight percent of

126
00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,280
Speaker 1: the vote, I think it's valid to raise questions about that.

127
00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:02,520
Speaker 3: Now.

128
00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:07,480
Speaker 1: The way that he has maintained power, according to critics,

129
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:12,760
Speaker 1: is suppressing dissent. There is no real opposition. Their allegations

130
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:20,040
Speaker 1: of disappearances of critics, assassinations, exile, imprisonment. There is no

131
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 1: free press, there is none of the sort of hallmarks

132
00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 1: of traditional liberal democracy exist in Rwanda.

133
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,960
Speaker 2: When we come back, we'll talk about the opposition in

134
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,160
Speaker 2: Rwanda and whether there could be hope for free and

135
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 2: fair elections, like Neil is just talking about in the future.

136
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:45,560
Speaker 2: We'll talk about that next. So Simon, thanks for sticking around.

137
00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,640
Speaker 2: So in your piece, you tell the story of how

138
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,920
Speaker 2: activists in the country have been trying.

139
00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,720
Speaker 8: To get help from all over the world to try and.

140
00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,080
Speaker 2: Really challenge this regime that we've been talking about. Can

141
00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,720
Speaker 2: you tell us who they've been speaking to it and

142
00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,080
Speaker 2: what exactly they're saying.

143
00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, So the Rwandan opposition and activists are very widespread

144
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 9: throughout the entire world. There's a huge Rwandan diaspora on

145
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 9: many continents.

146
00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,640
Speaker 6: In many states in the US, throughout Europe and.

147
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,360
Speaker 9: Elsewhere, and they form this sort of loose group, not

148
00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:26,560
Speaker 9: always the most organized, but they're doing many different things

149
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,040
Speaker 9: to try and get a foot in and a.

150
00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 6: Voice in Rwanda.

151
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 9: So one group, for example, would be the Rwandan People's

152
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,160
Speaker 9: Government in Exile.

153
00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:36,600
Speaker 6: That's a group of.

154
00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,120
Speaker 9: Politicians that have not been allowed to register for the

155
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,240
Speaker 9: election on July fifteenth, but as a result have formed

156
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,360
Speaker 9: their own government with a whole long list of different

157
00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 9: ministers who are drafting proposals for Rwanda in exile. There

158
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,000
Speaker 9: are also large opposition figures such as Victoire in Gabiri,

159
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 9: who has been banned from running in this election and

160
00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 9: even being jailed previously. She's now out of jail, but

161
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,080
Speaker 9: she's been accused of denying the genocide that took place

162
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,280
Speaker 9: in nineteen ninety four by the government.

163
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,400
Speaker 6: So it's an uphill battle really for these people.

164
00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 9: There is a large lobby going on, especially in cities

165
00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,280
Speaker 9: like Brussels. I was there recently, and many figures in

166
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,920
Speaker 9: the Rwandan the ESPER talk to officials in Brussels to

167
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,520
Speaker 9: try and convince them of the abuses taking place in Rwanda.

168
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,000
Speaker 9: But it's a huge uphill task for them because there

169
00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,360
Speaker 9: is a lot of support for his regime out there.

170
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,559
Speaker 2: And simon what happens to those that actually do try

171
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,720
Speaker 2: to oppose Gagame, especially publicly. Are they still getting into

172
00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,000
Speaker 2: trouble even when they leave the country if they're a

173
00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 2: part of that the diaspora.

174
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,120
Speaker 8: What are the some of the incidents that you can

175
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:51,079
Speaker 8: talk us through.

176
00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,079
Speaker 9: In the story, we really focus on one case of

177
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,840
Speaker 9: a man called Eugene Gasana. He's the former Rwandan ambassador

178
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,480
Speaker 9: to the UN. He was appointed in two thousand and

179
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:08,240
Speaker 9: nine and remained there for several years until twenty fifteen.

180
00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,240
Speaker 9: He was a really close friend of Kagami. He helped

181
00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,280
Speaker 9: him when Kagami was a rebel and seeking to come

182
00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,679
Speaker 9: to power and overthrow the Hutu regime. He was not

183
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,760
Speaker 9: in agreement with Paul kagam over his decision to change

184
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,760
Speaker 9: the constitution which would allow him.

185
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,960
Speaker 6: To stay in power, and the backlash was huge. He

186
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,200
Speaker 6: lost his position in government. He was forced to.

187
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,000
Speaker 9: Apply for asylum in the US, which it was granted,

188
00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:43,080
Speaker 9: and later on he was accused of rape by a

189
00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,959
Speaker 9: member of his office in New York.

190
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,079
Speaker 6: It's a very sensitive case. He claims that it is

191
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,839
Speaker 6: politically motivated.

192
00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 9: And Kagame's role in this case is difficult to put

193
00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,000
Speaker 9: your hands on. But his lawyer says that the government

194
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 9: of Rwanda is behind this case and that it's completely

195
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,280
Speaker 9: politically motivated. And it's also true that the court in

196
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,120
Speaker 9: New York actually discarded the rape case for a lack

197
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,600
Speaker 9: of evidence. In twenty twenty one, Interpol reviewed Rwanda's claims

198
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 9: and found, and I quote here from their investigation into this,

199
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,360
Speaker 9: that there was a predominant political dimension to the case,

200
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,960
Speaker 9: in which case the red notice against mister Gasana was

201
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:28,840
Speaker 9: actually removed.

202
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:30,760
Speaker 6: So Rwanda, it.

203
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,280
Speaker 9: Must be said, obviously denies that this is a politically

204
00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,960
Speaker 9: motivated case and that they have anything to do with it.

205
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,679
Speaker 6: Again, this only.

206
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:44,120
Speaker 9: Goes to show what happened to people who are willing

207
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,560
Speaker 9: to come out and criticize the president's motives.

208
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,600
Speaker 2: And simon you mentioned there a few international bodies when

209
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 2: it comes to the people who are trying to oppose

210
00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:00,439
Speaker 2: the regime. Is there optimism that there will be a

211
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 2: time when some of these human rights abuse accusations will

212
00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,280
Speaker 2: be challenged. What is the sentiment really with the community.

213
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,360
Speaker 9: I think when you speak to human rights groups, namely

214
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,320
Speaker 9: Human Rights Watch, AMSTE International, these kind of groups who

215
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,280
Speaker 9: are really documenting.

216
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,640
Speaker 6: What's happening inside Rwanda in terms of people who have

217
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,000
Speaker 6: allegedly been.

218
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,160
Speaker 9: Disappeared or assassinated, or people who have had to flee

219
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:31,040
Speaker 9: the country, they see a huge schism basically between.

220
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,200
Speaker 6: What's happening inside the country.

221
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,200
Speaker 9: And what people outside of the country.

222
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,080
Speaker 6: View as what's important.

223
00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 9: Really, Kagami does have a lot of vested interests and

224
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,800
Speaker 9: huge support internationally. He's helping Western governments with their immigration policy.

225
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,320
Speaker 9: He is also policing and offering up soldiers in the

226
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:56,000
Speaker 9: foremost it's army and peacekeepers in places where Western countries don't.

227
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,840
Speaker 6: Want to send their troops. So really he's bringing so

228
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,120
Speaker 6: much to the table. He's also created a fairly positive.

229
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,640
Speaker 9: Business environment, and I know, you know, the European Union

230
00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:11,400
Speaker 9: have helped him bring, for example, the pharmaceutical industry to Kigale.

231
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,000
Speaker 9: Diplomats I speak to have a sort of glowing view

232
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,960
Speaker 9: of Kagame, and it really sits in direct opposition to

233
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,679
Speaker 9: how human rights activists and also the Rwandan opposition figures

234
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,320
Speaker 9: would view the regime. It really is a Jacqueline Hard situation.

235
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,040
Speaker 9: One thing I'd like to point out is that the

236
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,560
Speaker 9: Kagami government has categorically denied over the years having played

237
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,280
Speaker 9: any role in the disappearance or assassination of its critics

238
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,720
Speaker 9: or defectors from the government, and stands by being an open,

239
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:46,960
Speaker 9: inclusive society for everyone.

240
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,040
Speaker 2: And so then just going back to the election that

241
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,440
Speaker 2: is coming up on Monday, we largely do know what

242
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,960
Speaker 2: the outcome will be, but what is maybe the unknown

243
00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,400
Speaker 2: in Kagame's next term. We know how long he is

244
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:02,640
Speaker 2: wanting to stay in office.

245
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,120
Speaker 9: So several years ago, the Rwandan government changed the constitution

246
00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,600
Speaker 9: allowing President Kagami to stay in power at least until

247
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,000
Speaker 9: two thousand and thirty four, So that's another decade from

248
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,280
Speaker 9: now that would allow him to be re elected in

249
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 9: July as we speak, and go on and be re

250
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,080
Speaker 9: elected once again for a fifth term should he indeed run.

251
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,520
Speaker 9: But yes, the question of succession in Rwanda is really

252
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,800
Speaker 9: the million dollar question. There's a lot of concern over

253
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:35,040
Speaker 9: what would happen if Indeka Game were to step down

254
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 9: or what to die Even that, it really begs the

255
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,320
Speaker 9: question as to what would happen terms of stability in

256
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:41,920
Speaker 9: the country.

257
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,080
Speaker 10: Considering we know that the Tutsi part of the population

258
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,640
Speaker 10: is around fifteen percent and the Hutu about eighty five percent,

259
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,440
Speaker 10: it's a huge question mark for the country.

260
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,680
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Simon and Neil for your reporting and

261
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 2: your insights today.

262
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:57,640
Speaker 1: Thanks for having us.

263
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,520
Speaker 2: Thanks When any leader wins an election with ninety eight

264
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,160
Speaker 2: percent of the vote, there are bound to be questions

265
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,440
Speaker 2: about the state of the democracy. Thirty years since the

266
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,640
Speaker 2: Rwandan genocide. The country's ability to rebuild explains why the

267
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 2: West has been so keen to work with Kagame.

268
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,040
Speaker 8: But with growing human rights concerns raised.

269
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 2: By activists inside and outside of the country, many have

270
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 2: asked whether the country's prosperity has come at too high

271
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:33,160
Speaker 2: of a cost. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley.

272
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,640
Speaker 2: Don't forget to follow and review this show wherever you

273
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,440
Speaker 2: usually get your podcast. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks as always

274
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:41,080
Speaker 2: for listening