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Speaker 1: I don't think you never know stories of things. We
Speaker 1: simply don't know the answer too. Hey, guys, welcome to
Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. I'm Devin, joined
Speaker 1: as always by Joe and Steve Um. We're gonna not
Speaker 1: even close to solve a mry We're just gonna talk
Speaker 1: about a mystery tonight. It's probably right. No, we're not
Speaker 1: going to solve it. We're going to talk about it.
Speaker 1: The topic tonight is the death of Kurt Cobain. I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna go any further than the before. I stop
Speaker 1: and say, if you suggested this as a listener, you're
Speaker 1: not going to hear your name red because there are
Speaker 1: too dang many of you. Yeah, this one's a pretty
Speaker 1: popular request, like a lot of people all the time,
Speaker 1: Like literally since we started the podcast. Actually, we've been
Speaker 1: getting suggestions for this, so finally we decided to tackle it.
Speaker 1: And actually it was because I recently took a trip
Speaker 1: to Seattle. We went to the Experienced Music Project Museum,
Speaker 1: which is up in Seattle. What is that again. It's
Speaker 1: a museum that's dedicated to music and pop culture. I
Speaker 1: hadn't heard of it before, so that's why it's freaking awesome.
Speaker 1: We used to go there when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: and like you can like play on instruments and all
Speaker 1: that stuff, and um, along with the Hello Kitty exhibit
Speaker 1: that I tweeted some pictures while we were there, Um
Speaker 1: yeah there was one. Yeah, um there was also I
Speaker 1: didn't know that, but there was also an exhibit not exhibition,
Speaker 1: exhibit um about Nirvana and they had all of the
Speaker 1: hit a bunch of Cobain's clothes and some memorabilia and
Speaker 1: like letters that he wrote and polaroids and all that stuff. Replica,
Speaker 1: no wax rep clause. No, it was very tastely done. Um.
Speaker 1: And I guess I just started to think about that
Speaker 1: whole You know, you don't think about people as people
Speaker 1: a lot, right, Celebrities You don't really think about that
Speaker 1: so much. But I started thinking about it, and then
Speaker 1: I started to think about his death, and then I
Speaker 1: just decided we should do an episode on it. So
Speaker 1: that's a long preamble. You know. One thing that when
Speaker 1: in doing a little research on this is I'm amazed
Speaker 1: at how long it's been since he died. It doesn't
Speaker 1: seem Yeah, it seems like a long time because I
Speaker 1: remember it. Yeah, I remember it too, but it just
Speaker 1: didn't seem like it was that long ago. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: it wasn't. I mean, I mean, I don't remember it
Speaker 1: because I was too young to remember it, but I
Speaker 1: was alive at least. So there's that. Um. And then,
Speaker 1: as an additional preamble to this, this is a huge,
Speaker 1: huge case, like huge, lots of research has been done
Speaker 1: on it. And that's not to say that the rest
Speaker 1: of the cases we do are not huge, but this
Speaker 1: one is extra huge. And I just want to remind
Speaker 1: anybody or let people know if they don't know. UM.
Speaker 1: Our podcast is intended as a primary course or an
Speaker 1: overview of cases. So there are going to be things
Speaker 1: that we're gonna gloss over or we're gonna omit, or
Speaker 1: that we won't include in the episode. And that's just
Speaker 1: how it is. I'm sorry. Look at the important stuff
Speaker 1: we I mean, I think we do usually get the
Speaker 1: important stuff, but if your only point of context for
Speaker 1: this is like the Soaked in Bleach documentary on Netflix,
Speaker 1: or it's only Curtain Courtney also on Netflix, or it's
Speaker 1: only or you've never heard of it. I encourage you
Speaker 1: to do more research because this is not This isn't everything.
Speaker 1: It's the ton out there and it's it's a celebrity.
Speaker 1: So therefore the sory is on the scale of reflective
Speaker 1: of the scale of that celebrity, and so that's that's
Speaker 1: why there's so much out there. So I just wanted
Speaker 1: to remind people before we get into it there we're
Speaker 1: gonna miss things. Sorry, but we're going to miss things.
Speaker 1: I don't think we must do any important things. I
Speaker 1: don't think so either, but I'm sure that. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, everybody has their favorite detail, so we might
Speaker 1: miss it, and I'm sorry if we do, but we
Speaker 1: probably know that we did. Okay, okay, cool labored that
Speaker 1: point long enough. We did, all right. So first off,
Speaker 1: like we did with Bob Marley, I'd like to assume
Speaker 1: that everybody knows who Kurt Cobaine is, but I guess
Speaker 1: I probably can't. Do you get you guys remember the nineties.
Speaker 1: I remember some of the nineties and there was especially
Speaker 1: especially in the Pacific Northwest. The nineties grunge era was
Speaker 1: taking effect, and a large part of that was in
Speaker 1: thanks to a band called Nirvana. You are I'm impressed.
Speaker 1: I'm not actually impressed. You plaid frequently, but thanks. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: But you guys know Nirvana. You know Vana. You just
Speaker 1: do if you if you think you don't know who
Speaker 1: Nirvana is, just pause this episode and go look up
Speaker 1: Nirvana and like, just listen to any song that comes up,
Speaker 1: and you will recognize Nirvana. I was really surprised when
Speaker 1: I was doing the research. I didn't realize they only
Speaker 1: put out three albums as big as they were. For
Speaker 1: some reason in my mind it was I figured it
Speaker 1: was a half dozen. Well that's the interesting part, right.
Speaker 1: They became so ubiquitous so fast. It was just really
Speaker 1: it was insane. I mean, as soon as the radio
Speaker 1: picked up smells like teen Spirit that they just became
Speaker 1: And almost every song off of their albums were hits.
Speaker 1: You know. It wasn't like one of those albums you
Speaker 1: pick up now where you recognize one song. It was
Speaker 1: just all of them are popular songs. So Kurt Cobain
Speaker 1: was the frontman for Nirvana, and there's a ton of
Speaker 1: history in the band, and I won't go into it,
Speaker 1: but you should probably get up because bands and music
Speaker 1: are interesting and awesome. Cobain was I'm not making this up.
Speaker 1: This is an actual quote. Um. He was called, quote,
Speaker 1: the spokesman of a generation, next generation. Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He and Nirvana rose quickly in popularity as we were mentioning,
Speaker 1: and Nirvana to this day is regarded as one of
Speaker 1: the most influential and important rock bands of the modern era.
Speaker 1: That's I mean, I know that sounds like a bold statement,
Speaker 1: but it's true. Yeah, it's possible. You also know of
Speaker 1: Dave Grohl or very least the Food Fighters again, yeah
Speaker 1: you do, go look it up. Um Groll was the
Speaker 1: drummer for Nirvana. I totally had spaced that out when
Speaker 1: I was doing the reading. Why is his name all
Speaker 1: over the stuff? Oh yeah yeah yeah, so yeah, Cobain
Speaker 1: huge influence on music, pretty much everything that is modern rock.
Speaker 1: I said it, deal with it. We're gonna get a
Speaker 1: lot of emails. Yeah, yeah, we're getting regardless regardless. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and actually I guess so before we go too far
Speaker 1: into the mystery. The mystery is that Kurt Cobain committed
Speaker 1: suicide on April, the age of arguably at the height
Speaker 1: of his career. I mean, you know he could have yeah,
Speaker 1: he could have putting him into club. Yeah he was
Speaker 1: part of the Seven Club um. But a lot of
Speaker 1: people think that, uh he was not. Actually he was
Speaker 1: actually murdered. He was didn't actually kill himself. So that's
Speaker 1: our mystery. Did Kurt Cobain commits suicide or not? And
Speaker 1: if I really have to say it, it's a suicide story.
Speaker 1: So if that's the thing that bothers you, stop now. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: suicide bothers me. So I'm gonna go. Okay, bye, Steve.
Speaker 1: You ready? Yeah? Great, Let's go back to important characters.
Speaker 1: Let's start with that right In Um January of nineteen ninety,
Speaker 1: Kurt met Portland local and frontwoman for the band that
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say most people haven't actually
Speaker 1: heard of, called Whole Um and her name was Courtney Love.
Speaker 1: The Whole really form in ninety I thought they formed later. No, No, no,
Speaker 1: whole was I'm sorry, I'm just saying whole like that's
Speaker 1: where you would know Courtney Love. Okay, not that the
Speaker 1: band formed in ninety I think they were. I think
Speaker 1: you know, they I think it was later on that
Speaker 1: they were starting to get bigger, had been around Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe even earlier than that. Also, it's unfair to say
Speaker 1: that nobody's heard of Whole. You've probably heard Whole songs.
Speaker 1: You just don't know it. It was a joke. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I'm Also it's also not a percent sure that that's
Speaker 1: where they met, but it doesn't really matter. They probably
Speaker 1: met in Portland. I know he played a lot of
Speaker 1: gigs in Portland. Yeah, well they were from Seattle. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Courtney Love is probably, uh like, one of the most
Speaker 1: ridiculed celebrities of all times. Ever, I would say she
Speaker 1: has habitually abused drugs and alcohol. She has had lots
Speaker 1: of legal trouble as well. A few months after Cobain's death,
Speaker 1: Love actually punched someone at Lollapalooza, which started a string
Speaker 1: of arrests, um and she was banned from a lot
Speaker 1: of places, including Virgin Airlines. Like the entire airline, she
Speaker 1: was no longer allowed to fly with them. She assaulted
Speaker 1: a stewardess. Typical. Yeah. Yeah, I will say this that
Speaker 1: despite her substance abuse problems prior to Cobain's death. It
Speaker 1: seems that her problems were her legal problems at least,
Speaker 1: were really spurred by his death. She didn't really have
Speaker 1: many legal problems before he died. Yeat, and you know,
Speaker 1: she wasn't arrested or anything like that. They seemed like
Speaker 1: a pretty normal couple, you know, as normal as you
Speaker 1: can be in the famous nineties grunge era. They got
Speaker 1: married in February of ninety two. Love wore a lace
Speaker 1: and satin wedding dress and Cobain wore green pajamas. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and um, Love was pregnant at the time when they
Speaker 1: were married, and she gave birth to their only child,
Speaker 1: whose name is Frances Bean in August. Did he of
Speaker 1: you guys look at pictures of Frances. I think she's beautiful.
Speaker 1: She I was really surprised at how much she looks
Speaker 1: like her mom. Yeah, for some reason, this is dumb,
Speaker 1: but I expected her to look more like her father,
Speaker 1: and it was shocking to see a sober version or
Speaker 1: clean version. Of course she has. She has Kurt's eyes,
Speaker 1: I would say, really really piercing blue eyes. Frances up
Speaker 1: to these days anyway, she's an artist. She's getting a
Speaker 1: divorce she's getting divorced. Tom Grant is another important player
Speaker 1: and this whole thing most of the time you'll here
Speaker 1: Grant referred to as an exemplary man, at least definitely
Speaker 1: in his own documentaries. Uh, he was a detective in
Speaker 1: l A. And then he retired and became a private detective.
Speaker 1: Definitely been the loudest proponent of the Cobain murder theory.
Speaker 1: He was hired by Love on April th after Cobaine
Speaker 1: escaped from a rehab facility in l A. On marcht one.
Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about the whole series of
Speaker 1: events in a minute. So this is really just pretty much, yeah,
Speaker 1: the important people, so that when we're going through I
Speaker 1: don't have to pause to say all that stuff. Grant
Speaker 1: almost immediately started recording almost literally every conversation and event
Speaker 1: that happened around this case. He's I mean, he's thousands
Speaker 1: of hours of recordings. And while many of the conversations
Speaker 1: that he taped were with a woman by the name
Speaker 1: of Rosemary Carroll, who is slash was the entertainment lawyer
Speaker 1: for Courtney and Kurt both. The interesting thing about Rosemary
Speaker 1: Carroll is that in recordings she very clearly agrees with
Speaker 1: Grant about most of his theories, but refuses to go
Speaker 1: on the record of any kind to say those things.
Speaker 1: In fact, in one of the recordings, you can hear
Speaker 1: her agreeing with Grant and then uh, she goes, wait
Speaker 1: are you recording? And he says, I record everything, and
Speaker 1: she goes, you can't do that. Stop and he stops
Speaker 1: the recording. She says a couple other words that I
Speaker 1: that we don't say on our podcast. Oh. When she
Speaker 1: discovers it's she does say a few things. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: this might confuse people her refusal to go on the record,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't really confuse me that much. Courtney Love
Speaker 1: is still her client. She's a lawyer. She's a lawyer,
Speaker 1: and her firm represents people like Jay Z for instance.
Speaker 1: It's a big firm of big talent, and you you
Speaker 1: can't go around accusing your clients of murder in the
Speaker 1: public if you want to retain any of your clients. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it makes sense to me. Who knows, maybe you
Speaker 1: can even be disbarred for saying stuff like that. Seems
Speaker 1: like you probably could. I don't really know anyway. So
Speaker 1: you'll hear that tossed around a lot, but I just
Speaker 1: want to go on the record of saying it doesn't
Speaker 1: really bother me that much that she won't go on
Speaker 1: the record. Okay, those are the big ones, big three
Speaker 1: with a couple. Yeah, talk about those when we get there. Timeline.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about timeline. Alright. We're just gonna do a
Speaker 1: series of events here, and we're actually going to start
Speaker 1: a little earlier than April. We're gonna start in early
Speaker 1: March in Germany. Um, sorry, Nirvana was on tour in Europe,
Speaker 1: I should say, and in Germany, Cobain was diagnosed with
Speaker 1: bronchitis and severe laryngitis. It does. Yeah, so when you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes his singing was more screaming. But it's still tough
Speaker 1: to do still, like you just can't do it. I mean,
Speaker 1: you have to be able to produce noise. Yes, that
Speaker 1: doesn't really work if you've got laryngitis or bronchitis. Where
Speaker 1: on thing it does. I don't think it's really Nirvana style,
Speaker 1: but maybe yeah, that it was more the guitars smashing
Speaker 1: than anything. Yeah, as you can imagine. Um, Kurt decided
Speaker 1: to get treatment for the said bronchitis and laryngitis, so
Speaker 1: he flew to Rome for treatment, because why not if
Speaker 1: you have a lot of money, may as we'll go
Speaker 1: to Rome for treatment instead of staying in Germany. I
Speaker 1: don't know. Probably, well it actually it turns out that
Speaker 1: Courtney Love. I'm gonna try to refer to people by
Speaker 1: the last names, but I might forget. But Love really
Speaker 1: really likes Roman history, So I suspect there might have
Speaker 1: been something there that he thought, oh, well, maybe she'll
Speaker 1: come with me if I go hang out in Rome
Speaker 1: or something like that. You know what I heard about
Speaker 1: that heard that about her, that that's that's kind of
Speaker 1: surprised me. It really surprising. I did not imagine that
Speaker 1: there Courtney Love that we didn't know about. Well, um,
Speaker 1: Courtney Love did join him in Rome, in fact, and
Speaker 1: on March three, Cobain had, according to Love, gone all out.
Speaker 1: He'd gotten her flowers, he had Champagne ready. He was
Speaker 1: basically like super cute, excited and romantic. He even apparently
Speaker 1: got her a piece of the Colosseum because apparently, you know,
Speaker 1: she loves Roman history, so she went down to the
Speaker 1: Colisseum with his hammer. Yeah, and it probably isn't actually
Speaker 1: from the Colosseum. Okay, when she arrived, Love says, they
Speaker 1: opened the champagne and she popped a valium because stress,
Speaker 1: I guess, and they made out a little bit and
Speaker 1: then she fell asleep. Yeah, and I think you know
Speaker 1: that that would upset me. Well, it would. But didn't
Speaker 1: she fly in from the States? Yeah, wouldn't she have
Speaker 1: like horrible jet leg And in addition to it depends
Speaker 1: on when she Oh you mean that, So she would
Speaker 1: have fallen asleep anyway because she would have been really,
Speaker 1: really tired. Yeah, it depends on when she flew. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, valium will knock you out. And so I
Speaker 1: don't know what why she did that. I would be
Speaker 1: annoyed if my wife husband showed up in Rome and
Speaker 1: I hadn't seen him for a long time and you know,
Speaker 1: was being really romantic and then he was just like okay,
Speaker 1: but sleep. Yeah I didn't know. I can see that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So around four am, she woke up from her value
Speaker 1: and induced coma apparently to find Cobaine passed out on
Speaker 1: the floor and he was rushed to the hospital. He
Speaker 1: had apparently overdosed on real hypnol, which you probably know
Speaker 1: as Rufie's, which there aren't actually intended for like date
Speaker 1: rape stuff. They're actually just sleep aids um and it
Speaker 1: was it was Love's prescription that he had. He had
Speaker 1: taken some of her pills, and she very famously says
Speaker 1: that there were like fifth that he had taken, like
Speaker 1: fifty pills. I want to know why the heck she
Speaker 1: had fifty of them, Honor Well, I mean why not?
Speaker 1: I mean, what what do you usually get as a
Speaker 1: prescription of something? Yeah, I think that is an excessive number. Also,
Speaker 1: she was drug addict. She did have every Yeah, but
Speaker 1: the overdose was so bad that Cobain was actually in
Speaker 1: a coma. And I can't tell from the reporting on
Speaker 1: this if he was in a coma for five days
Speaker 1: or he was just actually in the hospital for five days.
Speaker 1: I also can't tell if he was actually in a
Speaker 1: coma or he was just unconscious. But that's he was
Speaker 1: definitely in the hospital for five days. No matter what
Speaker 1: was happening in the hospital, he was there. You'll hear
Speaker 1: this referred to as Cobain's first suicide attempt. But it's
Speaker 1: really important to delineate here that no one at the time,
Speaker 1: doctors included, thought that it was a suicide attempt. Everybody
Speaker 1: classified it as a totally accidental overdose, and nobody thought
Speaker 1: it was a suicide attempt. That wasn't until it wasn't
Speaker 1: until Cobain died that it started being referred to as
Speaker 1: a suicide attempt. That's important. Yeah. There's also some speculation
Speaker 1: that the reason that Cobain had so many Rufe's in
Speaker 1: a system is that Love put a bunch of pills
Speaker 1: in his champagne and so he was unknowingly drinking Rufe's
Speaker 1: as well as taking Rufie's. I don't know if I
Speaker 1: believe that or not, especially since I don't know how
Speaker 1: much he had in his body. I was going to
Speaker 1: say she wanted to kill him, then why would she
Speaker 1: Why would she rush him to the hospital? Exactly? Exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's my big my other big thing with saying, oh,
Speaker 1: she was trying to kill him, that was her first try.
Speaker 1: It was like no, because she would not have called
Speaker 1: an ambulance. She would have to she would have waited, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then she could have come to and been like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I woke up at nine o'clock this
Speaker 1: morning and he was dead. Exactly. Anyway, I don't believe
Speaker 1: that this was a murder or suicide attempt. I believe
Speaker 1: it was totally just an accidental overs but um, that's
Speaker 1: just my opinion. Man. Comain and Love returned to Seattle
Speaker 1: after he spent five days in the hospital in Rome,
Speaker 1: which I'm just now realizing I never said, is where
Speaker 1: they lived. They lived in Seattle, Washington. It was a
Speaker 1: nice little house. Yeah, it wasn't little, No, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean actually little that was actually for
Speaker 1: as wealthy as it were, though, you know, it was
Speaker 1: actually more modest than a lot of rock stars would
Speaker 1: live in, and you know, but still a pretty big house.
Speaker 1: Seattle is not known for, unlike places like l A,
Speaker 1: for having that many huge, lavish homes at that time.
Speaker 1: Now that's stuff, says case now. But at that time
Speaker 1: they weren't as many giants sprawling gold encrusted homes. Yeah.
Speaker 1: On March eighth, Love called the police, claiming that Cobain
Speaker 1: was suicidal and had locked himself in a room with
Speaker 1: a gun. The police came, They confiscated the guns and
Speaker 1: some pills um. But when they asked Cobain why he
Speaker 1: was behaving that way, he said he wasn't suicidal at all,
Speaker 1: but he was hiding from um Courtney. I guess it's
Speaker 1: actually in the literal police report. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you guys saw that posted, but it literally says that
Speaker 1: in the police report that he was scared of Courtney
Speaker 1: and he was hiding from her with a gun in
Speaker 1: the room. I have heard the stuff that has come
Speaker 1: out of that woman's mouth before, and I would have
Speaker 1: hid in the bathroom too, because she's a little cuckoo
Speaker 1: for cocoa puffs. At time, it was a little cuckoo
Speaker 1: for cocoa puffs two. And sometimes there are some recordings
Speaker 1: of him threatening Oh yeah, no, no, no, I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that he was stable. Yeah, I'm saying she is
Speaker 1: definitely unindely unstable. Yeah. So again you'll hear that also
Speaker 1: referred to as a suicide attempt. Obviously it was not
Speaker 1: given that the police report proves that it was not,
Speaker 1: or I mean, at the very least that he was
Speaker 1: aware enough to say, no, it's not. I don't really know. Again,
Speaker 1: I don't think he was trying to kill himself at
Speaker 1: that moment either. But there you go on March Love
Speaker 1: stage and intervention with ten of Cobain's friends and some
Speaker 1: record executives, which I think is pretty funny. We did
Speaker 1: and mentioned that he was a heroin addict, right, Probably not,
Speaker 1: I haven't actually mentioned right. Thank you for pointing that out.
Speaker 1: This is one of those instances where you get so
Speaker 1: caught up in the case you forget to say things
Speaker 1: that seem really obvious to you, totally important. Both Courtney
Speaker 1: and Kurt were really really heavy heroin users throughout the
Speaker 1: entire duration of their relationship and prior to I think
Speaker 1: it was Courtney said it was drugs that brought them together.
Speaker 1: I think major shared in. Yeah. So yeah, he was
Speaker 1: a heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy heroin users. So was she.
Speaker 1: They both used a lot of drives. They and in fact,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff out there talking about how
Speaker 1: Cobain embraced his identity as a drug addict. That was
Speaker 1: attractive to him that he was doing drugs, So take
Speaker 1: that as you will. For those of you familiar with
Speaker 1: the case, Dylan Carlson was at the intervention. I am
Speaker 1: consciously omitting a lot of stuff that you will see
Speaker 1: about Dylan around on the internet about this case because
Speaker 1: I just think that they're not even a little suspicious
Speaker 1: the way he was acting and I think that it
Speaker 1: adds a lot of fluff to the case to discuss
Speaker 1: Dylan as some nefarious character. I don't think that nefarious.
Speaker 1: And by the way, just for those of you who
Speaker 1: aren't aware of the case, Dylan Carlson was a childhood
Speaker 1: friend of Kurt Cobain's. They were they were best friends,
Speaker 1: and also they did drudge together. I and I was
Speaker 1: going to say that's that is the only reason I'm
Speaker 1: not opposed to not bringing him up every ten seconds
Speaker 1: like some of the places that you'll read about this
Speaker 1: story does, is because he was also a junkie and
Speaker 1: his behavior is very very um typical, the things that
Speaker 1: he says in the way that he acts. So it's
Speaker 1: there's I can't see putting a lot of faith into
Speaker 1: the guy. Yeah, I don't think it's suspicious. If you
Speaker 1: want to know what we're kind of talking about again,
Speaker 1: we're kind of talking about Soaked in Bleach and the
Speaker 1: way that they portray Dylan Carlson as well as Tom
Speaker 1: grant Um, the way he portrays Dylan as kind of
Speaker 1: a seat nefarious guy in this whole thing. So I'm
Speaker 1: not going to bring him up every ten seconds like
Speaker 1: a lot of people do when they talk about this case,
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to bring that up. Now. I'll
Speaker 1: bring him up when it's important, like again in a
Speaker 1: couple of minutes, but it's not important. Okay. So after
Speaker 1: a rough start, likely Cobain laughing in Courtney's face, right,
Speaker 1: because I can't imagine that she was sober during this
Speaker 1: whole thing, saying you need to go to rehab, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to go with you, but I'm not going
Speaker 1: to do the impatient thing. I'm going to stay in
Speaker 1: a hotel and you go being that other Obviously she wasn't. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that it was her idea, right, it was her idea
Speaker 1: for the intervention. Um And after a rough start, as
Speaker 1: I said, they eventually did convince Cobain that he should
Speaker 1: go to rehab. Yeah, and you know responsibilities, Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: But what I want to know is why did they
Speaker 1: have to go all the way to l A for rehab.
Speaker 1: I think it's probably one of the best. It's probably
Speaker 1: also caters to celebrities. I was gonna say, it's their status.
Speaker 1: Is most likely you don't go to the methodone clinic
Speaker 1: down the street, yeah, or Method one as the case maybe,
Speaker 1: Uh sorry, joking. Okay, So Love and Cobain agreed to
Speaker 1: go to this one in l A right, And as
Speaker 1: I vaguely mentioned, Cobain was going to stay. It was
Speaker 1: a facility you were supposed to stay in. It was
Speaker 1: supposed to be an impatient detox, which makes sense for
Speaker 1: heavy drug users, you would want to monitor literally everything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but apparently um Courtney was staying in a hotel, maybe
Speaker 1: even with her drug dealer at the for her treat
Speaker 1: quote unquote treatment any she never seemed to take She
Speaker 1: didn't seem cleaning seriously. I mean, she did eventually clean up,
Speaker 1: and she's fallen off the wagon quite a few times,
Speaker 1: some of them very famously, But this is one of
Speaker 1: those times where I don't think she was taking it seriously.
Speaker 1: I would agree with that these days that you know,
Speaker 1: you guys are probably noticed that she's really trying to
Speaker 1: clean up her image. Also, her whole style is she's
Speaker 1: trying very hard. Yeah, but unfortunately she's not always gone
Speaker 1: about it so well. Did you see that roast she
Speaker 1: was on a couple of years ago. Oh, she was
Speaker 1: on some celebrity roast and she's like, I am so
Speaker 1: clean and I haven't done anything it's so look and
Speaker 1: it is so obvious that she is blasted. And like
Speaker 1: a week and a half later she went into another
Speaker 1: program because the entire internet was like, you're yeah, yeah, So,
Speaker 1: I mean she's trying, she's not always succeeding well. And
Speaker 1: here's what I'll say. When I was doing research from this,
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about some of the experts or people
Speaker 1: I talked to um when we start talking about theories.
Speaker 1: But I did talk to some people who are ex
Speaker 1: addicts who are listeners of our show, and they said,
Speaker 1: you know, by and large, opiate addiction, heroin addiction is
Speaker 1: the hardest thing to kick. It's the thing you missed
Speaker 1: the most. That high is just like it's almost impossible
Speaker 1: to kick for your entire life. And if you're around
Speaker 1: people who are doing it, you're probably going to start
Speaker 1: doing anything. I said, She's surrounded by the wrong people, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: whether that's intentional or not. Yeah, So she didn't really
Speaker 1: take this whole detox thing seriously. It sounds like us
Speaker 1: neither did Kurt Yeah. Uh. And reports say that the
Speaker 1: facility in l A had quote no knowledge of his
Speaker 1: history of depression or previous suicide attempts. Unquote, which is
Speaker 1: money again because as far as I can tell, uh,
Speaker 1: he didn't have any suicide attempts um, but maybe he did.
Speaker 1: I don't know. You did have some history of depression, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I mean we had some medical is that that
Speaker 1: kind of drug him down and gave me an excuse
Speaker 1: for a lot of things. Yeah, although there's some some discussion, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's some speculation there, but I mean, like, really, who
Speaker 1: doesn't have us history of depression? You know, who doesn't
Speaker 1: have who doesn't feel depressed when they're a teenager? You know?
Speaker 1: And it's not as though Kurt was that much. I mean,
Speaker 1: he was twenty seven. But if you're living in a
Speaker 1: world where you're making music about feeling angry and mad
Speaker 1: and sad and doing a lot of drugs, that's probably
Speaker 1: just going to continue. On March this is five days
Speaker 1: after the intervention. Yes, Cobain goes with Dylan Carlson to
Speaker 1: buy a shotgun before leaving for rehab. You'll remember that
Speaker 1: the police confiscated all of his guns, all Cobain's guns.
Speaker 1: There's some sort of restraining order because I get the
Speaker 1: impression that dyl and Carlson bought the gun for him.
Speaker 1: He did he wasn't under a straining order. He told
Speaker 1: Dylan that he didn't want to buy a gun because
Speaker 1: he thought the police would find out and confiscate that
Speaker 1: one too, given that it was registered under his name,
Speaker 1: after they just seized all of his weapons. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: he asked Dylan to buy it for him because he
Speaker 1: actually he thought that's It's unclear. Reports are either that
Speaker 1: he thought somebody was like breaking into his house or
Speaker 1: that um a decision that he was about to make,
Speaker 1: which I'll tell you about a second. He thought that
Speaker 1: people would be really angry and come attack him because
Speaker 1: he was going to cost people a lot of money retaliation, retaliation.
Speaker 1: And I understand this is a twenty gage shotgun. Twenty
Speaker 1: gets shotgun with a barrel break at the end, semato,
Speaker 1: but semiauto is important. That was a funny thing too,
Speaker 1: he apparently I heard it. He said that he bought
Speaker 1: a twenty gauge because he thought he could shoot somebody
Speaker 1: with a twenty gage that wouldn't kill them, you know,
Speaker 1: as opposed to a twelve games. Well, and that's dude,
Speaker 1: but isn't I thought I read somewhere that and you
Speaker 1: can correct me if I'm wrong, because I maybe that
Speaker 1: twenty gauges are popular for home protection because they won't
Speaker 1: go through a wall. Well, you can shoot somebody and
Speaker 1: it won't go through a wall and hit somebody through
Speaker 1: a wall. Well, it depends on what kind of load
Speaker 1: you got, anything slug in and it might punch its
Speaker 1: way through a wall. Chat Now, yeah, that's why people,
Speaker 1: you know, for home defense use smaller pellets that won't
Speaker 1: go to a wall. Right, So that was my understanding
Speaker 1: was that it was optimal. You know, likely they went
Speaker 1: into the gun store and they said, what are you
Speaker 1: looking for? He said, well, I'm looking to defend my home,
Speaker 1: and they said, oh, this is an excellent option for that. Definitely,
Speaker 1: you know, it's even better than than bird pellet. Just
Speaker 1: use rock salt that doesn't kill anybody and it's hurts
Speaker 1: like hell. Yeah, that's but they don't. You got to
Speaker 1: make your own. Yeah, that's the one problem with it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I wonder it would be like to be shot with.
Speaker 1: I don't want to know. I have I have been
Speaker 1: told that it is extremely painful. I don't want to
Speaker 1: ever find out. So Dylan bought him, bought Cobain this gun.
Speaker 1: I mentioned briefly that he thought maybe there would be
Speaker 1: some retaliation. It's because apparently Cobain had decided that Nirvana
Speaker 1: was not going to play Lollapaluza. Lollapaluza, which we'll talk
Speaker 1: about in a little bit. Lollapaluza is a huge music, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it was happening in Washington that year, and they
Speaker 1: were going to make nine point two million dollars four
Speaker 1: that it sounds like he not only didn't want to
Speaker 1: play Lollapaluza, but in fact wanted to disband Nirvana and
Speaker 1: quit the music business entirely. So he seemed to be
Speaker 1: a bit nervous about that. He was scared of retaliation.
Speaker 1: And so those are the two reasons that are given
Speaker 1: as to why he felt like he needed a gun.
Speaker 1: But either way, he took the gun back to his
Speaker 1: house in Seattle. He left it there, and then he
Speaker 1: got on a plane to l A and checked into
Speaker 1: the Detox facility down in l A. Exodus, Yeah, Exodus
Speaker 1: Dtox facility. Uh. He spent the day apparently talking to
Speaker 1: counselors about his drug use, his life in general. He
Speaker 1: played with Francis, his daughter. She was not now um.
Speaker 1: She came to visit him and I think with the nanny,
Speaker 1: and I believe that then they had a new nanny
Speaker 1: down in l A. Because they did have this one
Speaker 1: living nanny named Callie. He was still in Seattle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they had apparently just they had had a nanny
Speaker 1: leave them like a month before they really did. But
Speaker 1: I think that this nanny's name was Elizabeth. That's my
Speaker 1: guests given some other stuff. But I can't actually corroborate that,
Speaker 1: So sorry guys if I'm wrong. Also, of note, none
Speaker 1: of the counselors seemed concerned that he was a risk
Speaker 1: for self harm or anything like that, which seems like
Speaker 1: the sort of thing you might be to tell if
Speaker 1: somebody was really suicidal. Uh, would at picking that up
Speaker 1: pretty quick? Yeah, its like it. But maybe I'm just ignorant.
Speaker 1: But you're not getting their fix a heroine and then
Speaker 1: all that and then their their their life probably sucks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he might have seemed depressed. He didn't. Probably most
Speaker 1: of the guys that bring in there and we're kind
Speaker 1: of down, well it didn't meet him on one of
Speaker 1: their worst days. Yeah, I didn't actually seem like it
Speaker 1: seemed like he was Okay, I mean, obviously he was
Speaker 1: suffering from heroin withdrawal because you know, and that it
Speaker 1: was since he was a huge addict, that was that
Speaker 1: was a big deal. Obviously it wasn't going to be
Speaker 1: bid for him. But it sounds like the counselors thought
Speaker 1: he was dealing with it pretty well all things considered.
Speaker 1: I mean, he was playing with his daughter and stuff.
Speaker 1: He wasn't like he hadn't self confined himself to his
Speaker 1: room or anything like that. It's he seemed to be
Speaker 1: out kind of doing this whole stuff. Here's a question. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to this, and I don't
Speaker 1: know that I've ever read it anywhere. So five days
Speaker 1: prior to this, the intervention takes place, five or six days, Uh,
Speaker 1: do we know? Was he still using prior to arriving
Speaker 1: at the facility? I would, you know, I would guess
Speaker 1: that he probably shot up like right before he got
Speaker 1: on the Okay, I'm in the same boat here thinking
Speaker 1: that's probably the situation. But I've never seen anything, so
Speaker 1: I guess that's possible. I think I see where you're
Speaker 1: going with this. I guess it's possible that he was
Speaker 1: still high. I mean that he wasn't actually suffering from
Speaker 1: withdrawal yet, right, Yeah, so yes, that's possible. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I mean he's still you. You would think that people
Speaker 1: who are trained professionals in talking to people like counselors
Speaker 1: would at least have an inkling like, oh, yeah, he
Speaker 1: did seem a little upset. Yeah, I don't know, call
Speaker 1: me crazy. I have I know constantly. April one, UM
Speaker 1: reports are that thirteen calls are made from Love's hotel
Speaker 1: room to the facility that Cobain was in. It's my
Speaker 1: understanding that he didn't actually speak to her. It was
Speaker 1: to the like public phone basically, yeah, the pay phone
Speaker 1: that was available for all of the patients. They didn't
Speaker 1: actually speak. He may have spoke to her once, but
Speaker 1: that would be it. Um. And I'm unclear if he
Speaker 1: actually spoke to her once or if they're referring to
Speaker 1: the fact that he called the hotel and left a
Speaker 1: message for her. The message he left was, um, he
Speaker 1: left it with the front counter, the front counter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the front counter, front desk, thank you. I don't know
Speaker 1: why it was the counter. She was staying at a
Speaker 1: convenience story. Yeah, so at the front desk, and he said, um,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's phone number is this is sorry, there would be
Speaker 1: a phone number there where this was. He gave her
Speaker 1: the phone number. Yeah, and he said it was Elizabeth's
Speaker 1: phone number, so that I think it's the nanny, but
Speaker 1: I I don't. I don't know. Nobody ever says who
Speaker 1: Elizabeth happens to be. I'm just assuming it's the nanny. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't care. Yeah. Sometime during the first Kurt jokes
Speaker 1: that it would be a really really dumb thing to
Speaker 1: try to jump that six ft wall back in the
Speaker 1: back of the facility, and then he does that jump
Speaker 1: the ball in the back. Uh, he was out for
Speaker 1: a cigarette break and just jumped the wall. He caught
Speaker 1: a cab, went to l a X and gets on
Speaker 1: a flight to Seattle back home. That's funny. They didn't
Speaker 1: confiscate his credit cards or anything. Huh, yeah they didn't.
Speaker 1: But this was not a forced facility. Was a self volunteer,
Speaker 1: which is why I find it's so weird that he
Speaker 1: took the time to jump the wall. If they're letting
Speaker 1: me hang onto your wallet and your smokes and all
Speaker 1: of that, then why wouldn't you just say I'm gonna go.
Speaker 1: I got my My guests would be that he was
Speaker 1: trying to hide it from people. I presume that if
Speaker 1: you check yourself out of rehab, they're probably going to
Speaker 1: call some people and say, hey, just you know, Kurt
Speaker 1: checked himself out, and then those people are going to
Speaker 1: call the airport and maybe like run over the airport
Speaker 1: and steps before you can get on that plane. And
Speaker 1: so it's more hassle free if you slip off of
Speaker 1: the back wall instead of telling everybody about and telling
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a theory. It's not a very
Speaker 1: good theory, but it's theory. I've only been rehab a
Speaker 1: few times since. It just so happens that Kurt is
Speaker 1: sitting next to Duff mccagan, who you may know as
Speaker 1: the basis for Guns and Roses. Cobain and Axl Rose
Speaker 1: of Guns and Roses apparently had like a pretty big
Speaker 1: beef involving Courtney Love. Surprising no one didn't actually have
Speaker 1: a beef with everybody kind of yeah, there's like twelve
Speaker 1: of them or something, Yeah, okay, yeah. Mccagan apparently reported
Speaker 1: that Cobain seemed really happy to see him. He later
Speaker 1: remarked that from quote all my instincts that something was
Speaker 1: wrong unquote, one of the things. I How did you
Speaker 1: know they didn't really know each other that well? Um,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, their bands weren't they didn't interact
Speaker 1: that much. And you know, the other thing I really
Speaker 1: struggle with on this one is McKay mccagan was interviewed
Speaker 1: for a book in two thousand one. So that's one
Speaker 1: of those things later, really many years later, and you
Speaker 1: look back and you see one thing tiny a little
Speaker 1: bit wrong and you think, oh, I should have known.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's hard to tell if he
Speaker 1: actually felt that way at that time. And I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that he was like intentionally lying about that. I
Speaker 1: just mean that you do that, like every human does that.
Speaker 1: You go back and here reinterpret things their memories unintentionally
Speaker 1: all the time. April twod and third, Cobain is quote
Speaker 1: spotted unquote around Seattle a number of times. I don't
Speaker 1: know what that means. It's literally never elaborated on. It's
Speaker 1: just like when spotted, somebody saw him and they got
Speaker 1: blurry footage. Yeah, and that's it. Yeah. On April three,
Speaker 1: Love hired Tom Grant to quote unquote find Cobain. Who knows.
Speaker 1: I don't know if she knew where he was or
Speaker 1: anything like that. That's a big question mark in this
Speaker 1: whole case, but she hired him anyway. On April four,
Speaker 1: a police report is filed with Seattle Police by Air
Speaker 1: quotes Cobain's mother, unquote, stating that he was missing in
Speaker 1: suicidal in actuality. Um Tom Grant does have recordings of
Speaker 1: Love admitting that she actually filed the report and said
Speaker 1: it was that she was Cobain's mom because I don't know,
Speaker 1: she thought that people would pay more attention to it.
Speaker 1: I don't really know, question mark why she did that,
Speaker 1: but she did. On April seven, Nirvana officially pulls out
Speaker 1: of Wallapalooza. As I said, they were slated to make
Speaker 1: a bullload of money. I'm sorry I had the wrong number.
Speaker 1: It's nine point five not nine point two million dollars.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of money. I'll take the change. Yeah,
Speaker 1: me too. Um Love claims that Whole had actually originally
Speaker 1: been offered that spot, but turned it down so that
Speaker 1: Cobain could perform. It sounds like bunked to me. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there would be a way to look
Speaker 1: that up to corroborate it, but frankly, I don't care enough.
Speaker 1: I don't think it matters enough to this case. Um,
Speaker 1: so I didn't really waste any time on doing that.
Speaker 1: If you happen to know off the top of your head,
Speaker 1: please send us an email and I will re record
Speaker 1: this entire episode for exactly probably not sorry for the change,
Speaker 1: we will. Yeah, the point three millions, for the point
Speaker 1: three million. Yeah, for the third of a million dollars. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: On April eight, an electrician named Gary Smith maybe that
Speaker 1: might not actually be his real name, was dispatched to
Speaker 1: the house to install so that to sorry, to Cobain
Speaker 1: and Love's house in Seattle, to install a security system.
Speaker 1: And here's the question I never see asked is why
Speaker 1: I had the very same question. Why, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: did somebody call in the order for installation a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks prior, like did Cobain call before he left
Speaker 1: for rehab, expecting it to be done when he came back,
Speaker 1: Or did somebody call them on April eight or April
Speaker 1: seventh and say, hey, I need a thing installed, can
Speaker 1: you come do that? Actually, you know what I have.
Speaker 1: I'll bet you somebody did this well in advance. I
Speaker 1: was just thinking about the fact that you two know this.
Speaker 1: I recently had some electrical work done at my house
Speaker 1: and it was several weeks out, and this is in
Speaker 1: the tiny section of town, and my my local electricians
Speaker 1: still was weeks away. So I'm certainly, as you're talking about, like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know what, it's certainly since they're like, okay, we'll
Speaker 1: be there on the eighth, it's definitely possible that you know,
Speaker 1: he that Cobaine, you know, apparently reportedly he was worried
Speaker 1: about his safety and his home that he called as
Speaker 1: soon as he started being worried about safety and his
Speaker 1: home and said, actually, yes, I would like a security
Speaker 1: system installed. The actually right about when the police confiscated
Speaker 1: all of those guns, could have been Calie that called
Speaker 1: to It could have been anybody that made the call
Speaker 1: requesting the service. But again it's kind of one of
Speaker 1: those like why aren't people asking that question? Well, the
Speaker 1: question in my mind and is, um, why this guy
Speaker 1: shows up without calling a head first to make sure
Speaker 1: there's gonna be somebody there with keys to let him
Speaker 1: into places and stuff like that. He just shows up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know that was a little strange. Yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe the appointment he assume there was going to
Speaker 1: be somebody there. He gets there, there's nobody there, but
Speaker 1: he starts, you know, nosing around. Maybe he was well,
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe he was knocking on the door or
Speaker 1: to see if there's somebody home. The worst case scenario,
Speaker 1: you show up, nobody's there, you spend five minutes there,
Speaker 1: and electricians buill by the hour. So I just build
Speaker 1: an hour where it's work. It's hard. I mean again,
Speaker 1: it's the other question I guess is like, why was
Speaker 1: he poking around this greenhouse area? They might have gone
Speaker 1: to the house first and got no response, and then
Speaker 1: and then he goes the spots what looks it looks
Speaker 1: like a mother in law apartment over the garage, and thanks,
Speaker 1: I'll go up there and have a look sae, Yeah
Speaker 1: we should probably Yeah. So anyway, uh, Smith walks around
Speaker 1: what they called the greenhouse, which is it does look
Speaker 1: kind of like a mother in law apartment above the garage,
Speaker 1: which is separate from the house. Yeah, there's a wall. No,
Speaker 1: I think there's a door from the house into the
Speaker 1: greenhouse from a defunct room. I don't know that it
Speaker 1: matters very much, but it's a separate building from the house. Basically,
Speaker 1: he looks through a window because it is a greenhouse,
Speaker 1: so it's all windows, looks through a window, doors because no,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it looks like a greenhouse because it's painted green.
Speaker 1: On the outside. There's windows, there's lots of skylights. But
Speaker 1: don't call it a greenhouse because it's not actually a greenhouse.
Speaker 1: It's it's part of the garage that happens to have
Speaker 1: a ton of windows in it. Okay, that's fair. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's an apartment for for lack of a
Speaker 1: better turn, kind of yeah, it's just one big room though,
Speaker 1: So anyway, it doesn't really matter either way. It's this.
Speaker 1: They call it the greenhouse, so I'm going to keep
Speaker 1: calling it a green which is fine. I just want
Speaker 1: to make sure that we understand it's not an actual
Speaker 1: greenhouse sitting on top of their garage. So he sees
Speaker 1: a body lying in the greenhouse with a small amount
Speaker 1: of blood near him. This is how he describes it.
Speaker 1: He apparently initially thought that Cobain was asleep. Um, but
Speaker 1: he saw the gun shot and like a little bit
Speaker 1: of blood or not the gun shot, the shotgun, um,
Speaker 1: and a little bit of blood. So he called his boss, understandable,
Speaker 1: and his boss called the radio station. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's true either. Either way, the cops did get
Speaker 1: called and they came out. The police, they came out. Um,
Speaker 1: they arrived, they found that the door was locked. The
Speaker 1: door to the greenhouse was locked. So they broke one
Speaker 1: of the It was you know, like French doors because
Speaker 1: all paneled class. So they broke one of the windows
Speaker 1: next to the knob and unlocked it. It was one
Speaker 1: of those knob locks that you just twist the little
Speaker 1: lock on the knob. There was no bolt or anything.
Speaker 1: So if you commit murder, you yeah, And that is
Speaker 1: another important, another important key to this whole thing is
Speaker 1: in fact, the door was that way and there you
Speaker 1: will also see that there was a stool, you know,
Speaker 1: wedged up against the door. But that's also not true.
Speaker 1: There's a stool sitting kind of in front of a door,
Speaker 1: a door, not this door, a different door into the room.
Speaker 1: So again important little details. The officer that responded also
Speaker 1: showed up with a paramedic, because of course you would,
Speaker 1: and they reported a relatively small amount of blood. But
Speaker 1: the paramedic did say that it was clear that Cobain
Speaker 1: was dead, so they didn't try to do any kind
Speaker 1: of resuscitation or anything like that. Well, the guys shot
Speaker 1: half of his face off of the show. It sounds like,
Speaker 1: although I don't know that is true. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: never seen a Corners report and I've never seen any pictures,
Speaker 1: so I don't know for that half of his face
Speaker 1: was missing, but yeah, it sounds like he was missing.
Speaker 1: Probably didn't look so good because I know the Seattle
Speaker 1: PD still won't release any of those photographs, specifically because
Speaker 1: they don't think that anybody should see it. Um Cobain's
Speaker 1: wallet was sitting next to him, and the officer pulled
Speaker 1: his ID out to identify him and they took a picture.
Speaker 1: So that's another clue is they said they couldn't identify
Speaker 1: him they had to use his fingerprints to officially identify him,
Speaker 1: but they used his I D when they took a
Speaker 1: picture of the body to identify who the body was.
Speaker 1: His coat was on his left side, a brown paper
Speaker 1: bag with shotgun shells was by his left foot, a
Speaker 1: cigar box with all of his hair, heroin paraphernalia, and
Speaker 1: his wallet were on his right side, kind of a
Speaker 1: little further away from him, not just like right next
Speaker 1: to the body, and there were cigarette butts on the
Speaker 1: right side kind of above his head, a root beer
Speaker 1: can on his left side by his head, and then
Speaker 1: in the dirt on his left side was a note
Speaker 1: stuck in the dirt with the red pin that the
Speaker 1: dirt and the flower in the dirt in a flower.
Speaker 1: It's a flower bed, little flower bed, next little box. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so presumably with the pen that he had written the
Speaker 1: note in was stuck in the dirt through the paper
Speaker 1: in the dirt. We're gonna talk about details in a minute,
Speaker 1: but I want to finish the timeline in five hours.
Speaker 1: For some reason, despite all odds, the police declared his
Speaker 1: death and undeniable suicide at the scene and released Cobain's
Speaker 1: body to Love like within a couple of days. Um
Speaker 1: she had him cremated shortly afterwards. On April tenth, there
Speaker 1: was a public memorial that was held for Cobain, which
Speaker 1: featured Courtney Love reading Cobain's suicide note. So she read
Speaker 1: the entire thing. Apparently she arrived later and gave away
Speaker 1: some of Cobain's clothes. So there's a really quick overview
Speaker 1: of the timeline of this whole thing. And I guess
Speaker 1: we have a few more things to talk about before
Speaker 1: we talk about theories. I'm so sorry. You guys say
Speaker 1: you like long episodes, so you know, if you don't
Speaker 1: like the long episode, just put us on pause and
Speaker 1: come back tomorrow. Did you pause it? Welcome back. We're serialized,
Speaker 1: so bullet points. While people close to Cobain differ greatly
Speaker 1: in opinion on whether it was a suicide or not,
Speaker 1: I do think they agree. He was unhappy with his life.
Speaker 1: You can tell. You can tell that from a suicide note,
Speaker 1: that he's there's a lot of self loathing in there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about the suicide note in a minute.
Speaker 1: But he was happier once he had some health issues resolved,
Speaker 1: and with the birth of his daughter, he seemed to
Speaker 1: really really love her. But in general, let's agreed that
Speaker 1: Cobain was not happy with being part of a huge
Speaker 1: band like Nirvana, did not want fame. He wanted to
Speaker 1: just kind of be able to create. There's actually a
Speaker 1: quote from Courtney. After they got married, he canceled a
Speaker 1: couple of tours and she said all he wanted to
Speaker 1: do was do drugs and like paint, Like that's all
Speaker 1: he wanted to do. And that sounds very true. To me,
Speaker 1: in the interviews I've seen with Cobain, he just seemed
Speaker 1: like he was a guy who just wanted to create,
Speaker 1: and he like hated, for instance, hated smells like teen Spirit,
Speaker 1: hated it. Weved it. Yeah, but of course he had
Speaker 1: to do it, and they had to do it every
Speaker 1: single performance because it was one of the biggest hits.
Speaker 1: And it sounds to me like there could be worst
Speaker 1: problems to have. He could have had to sing Freebird
Speaker 1: at every concert. That's true, he could have. Luckily he
Speaker 1: didn't write free Bird, so luckily. Yeah. In that the
Speaker 1: other documentary, one of the other many documentaries, but the
Speaker 1: other big one, um Curt and Courtney, Kurt's aunt, who
Speaker 1: I frankly find to be one of the most credible
Speaker 1: character witnesses of this whole entire thing. Yeah, she says
Speaker 1: that she has no doubt that he just hated the
Speaker 1: world that he was living in. She thought that, um,
Speaker 1: he felt it was really fake and he hated it.
Speaker 1: I actually I attribute her his his aunt's statements to its.
Speaker 1: Nicholas Brufield is at the documentary that guy I recognized
Speaker 1: as soon as I started watching it, recognized the style.
Speaker 1: He's got a very distinct style, and I watched his
Speaker 1: other stuff before. Yeah, you have actually for this show
Speaker 1: even Yeah, but he has a really good way of
Speaker 1: interviewing people, and he tends to draw out a lot
Speaker 1: of little bits of information that nobody else does. I mean,
Speaker 1: everybody's after the big, glamorous interview, and he's like, I'll
Speaker 1: talk to anybody, and it usually is for the better
Speaker 1: for him because he gets information that most people wouldn't.
Speaker 1: So I personally I attribute all of her information to
Speaker 1: his absolutely, Yeah, because you never hear about her anywhere,
Speaker 1: so you don't and I think, I mean, you hear
Speaker 1: about his cousin, who I think is full of crap um,
Speaker 1: and you hear about his parents a little bit but
Speaker 1: not very much. But his aunt they seem to be
Speaker 1: very close, and um, I really think that she has
Speaker 1: the most insight to what Cobain was really like. So
Speaker 1: there's that Nirvana was probably breaking up either way, because
Speaker 1: it sounded like court really Kurt, Kurt really didn't want
Speaker 1: to do stay anymore. He was done too. Yeah. Almost
Speaker 1: everyone close to this case says that they are scared
Speaker 1: of Courtney Love, which is fair. She's scary. Uh. It
Speaker 1: sounds like Kurt Cobain and Courtney of we're probably getting
Speaker 1: a divorce and love was probably being written out of
Speaker 1: Cobaine's will. I obviously there's no way to corroborate that,
Speaker 1: but it sounds like statements from Rosemary Carroll who's who again.
Speaker 1: She won't go on record to say this, but Tom
Speaker 1: Grant does have recordings of her saying this, So it
Speaker 1: sounds like love was being written out of Cobaine's will.
Speaker 1: I've seen reports that Cobaine's credit card was being used
Speaker 1: after his death or they were missing, and I don't
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to find this information from anywhere
Speaker 1: but Tom Grant, so take it with a grain of salt.
Speaker 1: It also appears that Courtney canceled all of Cobaine's cards,
Speaker 1: believing that it would cut him off and cause him
Speaker 1: to contact her again. That's all from Tom Grant. I
Speaker 1: don't know. There's no other way to corroborate it as that.
Speaker 1: That's not necessarily from Tom Grant as much as that's
Speaker 1: from Courtney Love. Yeah, she's the one who said that
Speaker 1: she did it. Yeah, she said that she canceled them.
Speaker 1: I don't whether she did or didn't. Yeah, So I
Speaker 1: don't know again there's I can't corroborate it, but I
Speaker 1: thought i'd mention it. And then um, we talked about
Speaker 1: Callie a little bit. He was the only person that
Speaker 1: I was gonna he was apparently actually living in the
Speaker 1: house in Washington in Seattle, uh, the entire time, basically
Speaker 1: as a caretaker, living roommates. Yeah, but like Kurt was
Speaker 1: dead in the house for like three days, four days
Speaker 1: before his body was discovered. So no, not in the
Speaker 1: main house, that's true, But he had to have been
Speaker 1: at the house at some point. Well, and Kelly's got
Speaker 1: on record of saying that he saw Yeah, but he
Speaker 1: showed up one so I think yeah, he said he
Speaker 1: came to visit um Callie and his girlfriend in bed.
Speaker 1: So there you go. Okay, awkward, We're you know, an
Speaker 1: hour in and done with the overview. You're welcome, Thanks,
Speaker 1: You're welcome. So theories were there finally after ten hours.
Speaker 1: It's gonna keep getting longer, and I will just think,
Speaker 1: once again, remind people that we're doing ever of the
Speaker 1: case because there's so much, there's so many theories, there's
Speaker 1: so much information here. I like, literally can't I don't
Speaker 1: have the physical capability my voice is already starting to go. Okay.
Speaker 1: So let's basically there's two theories, right, because this is
Speaker 1: a Devin episode. Um, the two theories are he was
Speaker 1: murdered or it was suicide. Well, actually, it could have
Speaker 1: been an accident to maybe he just bought a shotgun
Speaker 1: and he was and he tripped and fell backwards with it.
Speaker 1: Now he was actually I think he was standing there
Speaker 1: like like looking down the barrel just to see if
Speaker 1: there are any obstructions in or anything like. I don't
Speaker 1: think that happens. Alright, So let's talk about murder first.
Speaker 1: We can do that. Um, we're just gonna bullet point
Speaker 1: real quick here. Some of the things that people bring up,
Speaker 1: why do people think it's murder? Uh? One of the
Speaker 1: questions people ask is why would a rich man kill himself? Well,
Speaker 1: that's a dumb question. Yeah, it happens, happens a lot often. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: the divorce that he would rather kill himself than divorced.
Speaker 1: He actually said that in a note somewhere at some
Speaker 1: point was an interview he said, actually I think he
Speaker 1: said it in a note to Courtney. Nirvana was breaking up, so, um,
Speaker 1: he was keeping people from money. He was scared for
Speaker 1: a retaliation, right, So like somebody could have killed him
Speaker 1: because they were okay, because if you're going to kill him,
Speaker 1: then you're he's gonna that's fine whatever. Um, there were
Speaker 1: no fingerprints on the shells, slash guns, slash pen, slash
Speaker 1: insert thing here. We're going to talk about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about people say he wasn't quote unquote,
Speaker 1: he wasn't suicidal. There was a lot of heroin in
Speaker 1: his body, along with some other stuff. And people also
Speaker 1: say that the note wasn't a suicide note or it
Speaker 1: was faked. Um. And there's like a handwriting sample thing
Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about in a minute. So
Speaker 1: those are all the reasons people say it was murder.
Speaker 1: Next theory, just kidding. We're going to talk about some
Speaker 1: of these things in detail, but not all of them.
Speaker 1: So here we go. The gun. We talked about this
Speaker 1: a little bit, alright, a little bit. Yeah it is.
Speaker 1: It's the twenty gage shotgun which Dylan bought for Kurt.
Speaker 1: The gun was a long barrel gun, but I don't
Speaker 1: think the barrel was so long that Cobain could have
Speaker 1: um not reasonably pulled the trigger himself. I think it
Speaker 1: would have he would have been able to totally do that.
Speaker 1: It's got to be a really big gun to not
Speaker 1: be able to pull the trigger yourself. Yeah, that doesn't
Speaker 1: concern me. The issue people they have a few issues
Speaker 1: with the gun, and some of them might. Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1: First of all, the shell casing, the Spence shell casing
Speaker 1: was on the opposite side of Cobain's body from where
Speaker 1: it would have ejected from the gun. It was a
Speaker 1: semi auto, so it is reasonably automatically. Yeah, and he
Speaker 1: was holding the gun upside down down, so the ejection
Speaker 1: port would have been on his right, but the casing
Speaker 1: was on his left. Yes, that makes people suspicious. It
Speaker 1: makes people suspicious, I guess I agree. I think it's
Speaker 1: reasonable to say that it could have bounced off his
Speaker 1: arm um, it could have bounced up his arm. It
Speaker 1: could have if you'd been holding it like even a
Speaker 1: little bit of an angle. It could have ejected somewhat upwards,
Speaker 1: bounced off. Because that was a fairly skinny little room
Speaker 1: that he was in. I don't think it was that skinny.
Speaker 1: According to this the diagram I saw, it didn't look
Speaker 1: that big. It's huge, but it's not. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's big. Couldn't have hit the wall on the opposite
Speaker 1: side and bounced back? Joe that I don't think. I
Speaker 1: think that's too far. Well, most things get flung out
Speaker 1: with a lot of forests. They do, but they're also
Speaker 1: super light, and so they burn up their inertia quite quickly.
Speaker 1: I mean, chuck on shells don't fly more than four
Speaker 1: or five feet at best on their own without a
Speaker 1: wind fly further than that. Well, but I'm I'm making
Speaker 1: a generality here. What I'm saying is that there's no
Speaker 1: way it could have hit the wall and bounced all
Speaker 1: traveled all the way back from where to where it originated,
Speaker 1: and then continued on. The room is too big for
Speaker 1: that to have happened. I feel the same way. But
Speaker 1: there's other things too that he could have. Maybe he
Speaker 1: wasn't holding the gun upside down when he actually pulled
Speaker 1: the trigger, and maybe he was. Maybe he was holding
Speaker 1: it sort of flat against his body and I went
Speaker 1: up in the air. Maybe he was standing up when
Speaker 1: he shot himself. He well, I will, I will agree
Speaker 1: with Joe. So I know that you're going to talk
Speaker 1: about a little bit of how we know that the
Speaker 1: gun was upside down. But Joe makes a very good
Speaker 1: point of if he was standing upright and the gun
Speaker 1: was not upside down. By upside down, I think we
Speaker 1: should explain this to folks. That means the trigger is
Speaker 1: pointing up in the air instead of down at the
Speaker 1: floor like you would normally hold a gun. But if
Speaker 1: he did have it so it wasn't at a hundred
Speaker 1: eighty degrees away from where it traditionally would be held,
Speaker 1: but say only ninety degrees, then the casing would go
Speaker 1: down to the floor and could ricochet anywhere. Or if
Speaker 1: he is sitting, if he had done that, it could
Speaker 1: have bounced off. Well, yeah, that's if he's standing, or
Speaker 1: if he's sitting when he uses it, it can ricochet
Speaker 1: off his arm or his leg to end up on
Speaker 1: the opposite side. So it's completely plausible, is the only
Speaker 1: thing I'm getting at. But there's a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: vectors that it could have taken. Yeah, if he had
Speaker 1: been reaching down, then his arm definitely would have been
Speaker 1: right in the way of the injection. Yes, yeah, And
Speaker 1: I guess you know, for me, it's just a question
Speaker 1: of how fast does that happen? And you know, the
Speaker 1: gun would have had to have been a slight angle,
Speaker 1: because if for it to bounce off and then bounce
Speaker 1: over instead of bounced just right like back at the gun,
Speaker 1: you know, it wouldn't have ejected exactly right to bounce
Speaker 1: off his arm then. But I guess I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't really have a problem with that. It's interesting because
Speaker 1: people say that this is proof that there was someone
Speaker 1: else in the room because it had to have bounced
Speaker 1: off someone else, But I don't think that's true, particularly
Speaker 1: because it means that Cobain he had what's called a
Speaker 1: death grip on the barrel in layman's terms. In Layman's terms, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that happens surprisingly just moments after death. Your hand
Speaker 1: just like freezes up and yeah, basically right at death.
Speaker 1: So there would have been no time for somebody to
Speaker 1: stage that. So he was holding the gun and his
Speaker 1: hand was tight enough on the barrel that it They
Speaker 1: think that it didn't spin around, that it was the
Speaker 1: position the gun was found in, was where the position
Speaker 1: was when Uh probably, Yeah. So I guess the thing
Speaker 1: that I always have problem with is people say, well,
Speaker 1: it means somebody else was in the room, but well, no,
Speaker 1: it doesn't. I mean he was holding the barrel in
Speaker 1: his mouth either way. Okay, no, I can play Devil's
Speaker 1: advocate on that entirely. If somebody else is in the
Speaker 1: room and they are trying to get him in, there's
Speaker 1: some kind of struggle and he grabs the gun and
Speaker 1: other said person somehow accidentally pulls the trigger and it
Speaker 1: goes off, that just means that his his hand was
Speaker 1: on the barrel, it's all it means. It doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that there's no way somebody else couldn't have been there.
Speaker 1: Somebody could have been there. I don't think that. I
Speaker 1: don't think. I don't think based on everything I've read.
Speaker 1: But I'm just saying it's entirely possible that there could
Speaker 1: have been a quote unquote struggle for the weapon and
Speaker 1: it went off while he happened to be holding the barrel,
Speaker 1: and therefore, as this murder theory loves to point out,
Speaker 1: everything was then stage. Yeah, okay, that's a good point.
Speaker 1: I guess I hadn't really thought of that, so I
Speaker 1: guess we're gonna get into that. But if they were
Speaker 1: trying to murder him, then are people also saying that
Speaker 1: somebody else forced him to take three times as much hair?
Speaker 1: I want as he should have taken Yes, But we
Speaker 1: will get into that in just a second. I want
Speaker 1: to there is a couple more things about the gun
Speaker 1: that I want to talk about first, and then we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about drugs, because this is one episode.
Speaker 1: Drugs and guns and stuff like that makes for the
Speaker 1: best parties, it really does. The gun is, I will mention,
Speaker 1: still in police custody. If you follow this case at all,
Speaker 1: you will know that just very recently, in fact, the
Speaker 1: Seattle Police Department released pictures of one of their officers
Speaker 1: holding the gun that Kurt Cobain died from a gunshot
Speaker 1: wound from, and they still have it there. You will
Speaker 1: hear people say, oh yeah, they released it into the
Speaker 1: custody of Courtney Love and she melted it down to
Speaker 1: the hide evidence. That didn't happen. The police still have it.
Speaker 1: It's still in evidence. Okay, I'm melting it down. Yeah,
Speaker 1: me too. Yeah. Another issue with the gun is reportedly
Speaker 1: they didn't find fingerprints on the gun or shells, which
Speaker 1: is it happens, but also it's inaccurate information. What really
Speaker 1: happened is um the report states. Again, I looked at
Speaker 1: the actual police report and it says that there are
Speaker 1: no prints of quote comparative value, which just means that
Speaker 1: they were all smudge, which makes sense because they would
Speaker 1: be probably absolutely And the real issue here, though, is
Speaker 1: that the gun wasn't even inspected for Prince until like
Speaker 1: three years after like literally, they didn't submit these fingerprint
Speaker 1: results for analyzation analyzation analysis, thank you, until which is
Speaker 1: three years after Kirk. That's a failing on the part
Speaker 1: of the place based on their reasoning of the cause
Speaker 1: of death. Yea, they had this thing about not processing
Speaker 1: anything on suicide. They didn't even develop the film. Yeah, weird, bad,
Speaker 1: bad practices all around. So and we'll talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about that minute. But that's my issue with fingerprints,
Speaker 1: not that they couldn't find anything, because like of course,
Speaker 1: like fingerprints are mostly smudgy. It's rare that you find
Speaker 1: a good one. Okay, now we can talk about drug
Speaker 1: you're talking about rugs. So Cobain, it was reported had
Speaker 1: three times the lethal dose of heroin in his body
Speaker 1: when he died, and there's some debate only around this
Speaker 1: case is the only time I've ever seen this debate ever,
Speaker 1: But what the lethal doses? What the well, if there's
Speaker 1: this ceiling or not for heroin. In this case, it's
Speaker 1: the only time I've ever seen anybody say, oh yeah, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: the lethal dose is a lethal dose for heroin. People
Speaker 1: can take only a certain amount before they become incapacitated.
Speaker 1: Literally every other case I've ever heard with heroin, and
Speaker 1: when we corroborated this with some experts, there is no
Speaker 1: ceiling for heroin. You can pretty much keep taking it.
Speaker 1: I mean increasing dose, take increasing doses over time. Obviously, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you build up a tolerance, and once you have a
Speaker 1: high enough tolerance, I mean you actually need more to
Speaker 1: feel the same high. And you do develop that tolerance,
Speaker 1: and you will still be totally capable of moving around
Speaker 1: and doing things. Whereof somebody like if I injected that
Speaker 1: amount of heroine it would definitely kill me. But if
Speaker 1: I had been doing heroin for ten years in an
Speaker 1: increasing in incrementally increasing amount, I would probably you just
Speaker 1: don't ceiling, not any drug. It's specifically that is the case.
Speaker 1: And actually their interviews where Cobain says that he at
Speaker 1: one point in his life he was doing four dollars
Speaker 1: worth of heroin a day, which is a lot of heroine.
Speaker 1: Holy crap, that's from the ahead. I'm sorry, UM, no,
Speaker 1: as gonna say. Tom Grant, the private investigator, he continually
Speaker 1: has made the point that he would have been totally
Speaker 1: incapacitated immediately. He would have Yeah, he would have had
Speaker 1: you know, like no time to you know, check out
Speaker 1: the shotgun. Oh sorry, sorry, sorry, Tom Grant would have
Speaker 1: been stated Cobain. I don't think he would have. He
Speaker 1: he had one point five millgrams per leader of heroin
Speaker 1: was reported to be in his body. Um and I
Speaker 1: actually asked, it's important, though, for everybody to understand he's injecting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's injecting its intervited intervenous use, intronous invened. I still
Speaker 1: can't say that word. Um and I actually checked. I
Speaker 1: checked with a fair a couple of our experts, and
Speaker 1: they all agreed. They are all in medical professions, they
Speaker 1: all have seen cases of heavy heroin use, and they
Speaker 1: all agreed that it's totally reasonable to expect that somebody
Speaker 1: with a high tolerance would be totally capable of moving
Speaker 1: around and doing things with that amount of to heroin
Speaker 1: in their body. And I should also mention that it's
Speaker 1: not like we're saying, oh and then Cobain got up
Speaker 1: and ran a marathon. We're talking about could he have
Speaker 1: rolled down his sleeve, put his paraphernale away and pull
Speaker 1: the trigger right, absolutely, like, yeah, you can crawl while
Speaker 1: you're doing that, right, it's small movements. Well, and that
Speaker 1: that would indicate the weirdo writing that is on the
Speaker 1: note that everybody, it would it would also help explain that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But you'll see in Soaked and Bleached, the team maintains
Speaker 1: that there was a study that was done, quote unquote
Speaker 1: study that was done where there's a picture of a
Speaker 1: guy who's standing on one leg and you know, doctors say, well,
Speaker 1: he took um you know, the equivalent of methodone tabs
Speaker 1: that Cobain had in his body, and look at he's
Speaker 1: standing on one foot. He's totally fine. And the Soaked
Speaker 1: and Bleached team says, but no, he it's methodone, so
Speaker 1: it's less and tags. He took it as a pill.
Speaker 1: He didn't inject it, so that's not admissible. But I
Speaker 1: think anecdotal evidence from the health people that we talked
Speaker 1: to UM who are all named Stephanie, Corey and Lisa Um,
Speaker 1: they all agreed absolutely, yeah, no question. Somebody with that
Speaker 1: amount of heroin and them body could totally. And that's
Speaker 1: that's the reason that I was asking earlier though about
Speaker 1: his um if we knew if he had used during
Speaker 1: that week after the intervention, and then if he had
Speaker 1: used just before he got to the rehab clinic. And
Speaker 1: we also don't know if he was using while he
Speaker 1: was in Seattle before he did that confident that you
Speaker 1: know after April one he was on a bender. I'm
Speaker 1: not disagreeing with that at all, but it does make
Speaker 1: you wonder because it's we've all seen those cases of
Speaker 1: where somebody who did something to access took a certain
Speaker 1: amount of time off, their tolerance dropped a little bit,
Speaker 1: and then they went right back to their old ways,
Speaker 1: and that's what put him in the ground. But I
Speaker 1: don't know that. Yeah, I know what you're talking about,
Speaker 1: but I don't know how long you had to be
Speaker 1: off with where the taller goes away, I don't don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think two days off. Well, that's why I
Speaker 1: was wondering about that. If he had stopped after the
Speaker 1: intervention forward and so then that would be a week
Speaker 1: week and a half issue, which again I don't think
Speaker 1: it's a whole lot, but your body does slowly heal
Speaker 1: itself from the damage that you intentionally do to it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He and he also had valley um in his bloodstream. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I don't know where he got that Courtney loves prescription.
Speaker 1: Probably well, I don't remember. Well, but I don't know
Speaker 1: if he got that from the plant, or if he
Speaker 1: got it from his drug dealer or where he got it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know either, but I think he probably got
Speaker 1: it from the medicine cabinet in the bathroom. Probably probably, yeah, probably. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know. The other fun fact I guess. But the
Speaker 1: other interesting fact about him is that if you've noticed,
Speaker 1: I don't know if either of you notice this in
Speaker 1: the photos, he's wearing a Tom Peterson watch. And I
Speaker 1: mean the death Saying photos. Yeah, yeah, it's Tom. You
Speaker 1: know Tom Interloria too. Yeah, he's wearing a Tom Peterson watch.
Speaker 1: For anybody who doesn't know, Tom Peterson had a chain
Speaker 1: of stores in the Pacific Northwest and yeah they well,
Speaker 1: and he tried to get an electronics But it's it's
Speaker 1: his head. He's always showed at these gigantic proportions. It's
Speaker 1: this weird black and white photos style really recognize. But
Speaker 1: it was he had. When you see him one of
Speaker 1: the photos that they released, he's wearing a Tom Peterson.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back and look if you want to
Speaker 1: see Tom Peterson rent drug Store, Cowboy, a couple of movement.
Speaker 1: And he also was in My Own Private at Oh
Speaker 1: he has got a bit part is I think the
Speaker 1: chief of police. And I don't think he even says
Speaker 1: any words. But have you seen My Own Private It's
Speaker 1: been a million years. Yeah yeah, so's just like the
Speaker 1: length of this episode exactly. But if you watch but
Speaker 1: if you watch My Own Private at home, he plays
Speaker 1: the chief of police. Okay, there you go, all right,
Speaker 1: that's Tom Peterson and Gloria too. The other thing I
Speaker 1: want to talk about is the note, and I really
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it for very long, but um,
Speaker 1: this suicide note was addressed to Cobain's imaginary friend Bata.
Speaker 1: Did you guys watch Kurt and Courtney? Oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: like legitimately cried when his aunt played the recordings of
Speaker 1: him as like a two year old like talking to
Speaker 1: Bata because that's so sad, Like I can't imagine going
Speaker 1: through something like I was. I didn't cry, but it
Speaker 1: does make you feel just a twinch of set says
Speaker 1: here this guy that's dead, so just a little kid
Speaker 1: with this whole life, and that I'm talking about Bota,
Speaker 1: his imaginary friend Bota. We're not going to read the letter.
Speaker 1: It's long and it's very easy to find. I just
Speaker 1: wanted to say that I do agree that the note
Speaker 1: looks odd, but I think there are a lot of
Speaker 1: ways to explain that. I will agree also that the
Speaker 1: bulk of the note sounds like Cobain was just writing
Speaker 1: to his fans. He used to do that. I don't
Speaker 1: know if either of you guys have ever seen this,
Speaker 1: but he used to write letters to the fan club,
Speaker 1: like literally write handwritten notes and then photocopy them and
Speaker 1: send them to all of the fans of Nirvana. Um.
Speaker 1: And he would do like newsletters. He was running, I mean,
Speaker 1: he was basically running his own fans, yeah, kind of
Speaker 1: and were not really a zine. It was literally just
Speaker 1: like notes. But he called him newsletters, and so that
Speaker 1: was the sort of thing he would do in the beginning,
Speaker 1: and I think he probably didn't do it as much.
Speaker 1: I don't know, um frankly, if he did it in
Speaker 1: the in the Middle Times, but to me, the bulk
Speaker 1: of the note, the main body of it, does sound
Speaker 1: like it reads exactly like the way he wrote to
Speaker 1: his fans. It sounds like he is writing to his
Speaker 1: fans saying like listen, Nirvana is no more basically, or
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be in music anymore. Um. And
Speaker 1: then it's true that it's not really until the last
Speaker 1: couple of lines that it sounds like to me a
Speaker 1: suicide note suddenly changes in tone a little bit, definitely does. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just like this letter that sounds like he's writing
Speaker 1: to his fans, and then suddenly it's like, I love you,
Speaker 1: keep going, and it's different, slightly different looking handwriting, although
Speaker 1: it still looks like it's his handwriting. But you know,
Speaker 1: I've seen other things that that Cobain wrote and it's
Speaker 1: very similar. You know, see other ones where he's he's
Speaker 1: it's kind of tiny and at the bottom it gets
Speaker 1: real big and that's not enough. That's the heroine kicking in.
Speaker 1: Or you have no idea, or if it's just larger
Speaker 1: letters for emphasis, Yeah, I don't know. Rosemary Carroll, who
Speaker 1: remembers a lawyer, claims to have found a handwriting Sam
Speaker 1: Ball in a bag that Courtney Love left at her house.
Speaker 1: What's she doing? Written around the bag. She left it
Speaker 1: there for weeks apparently, so she like went through it.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Again, it's hard to tell, um, but
Speaker 1: it looked like they could have traced it's a practice sheet.
Speaker 1: It looks like a practice sheet for anybody who doesn't
Speaker 1: know what that is. It's where you copy somebody else's
Speaker 1: letters and then practice writing them to look like it's
Speaker 1: in their hand. Right. But that's a sheet. Is whether
Speaker 1: this is or is not, that's what it's called. So
Speaker 1: that is what he practiced, is Yeah, And I don't
Speaker 1: I've never seen a picture of this alleged practice sheet,
Speaker 1: so I don't know. That's not a picture of it
Speaker 1: somewhere there's okay, I don't know. I can't find it
Speaker 1: online anywhere. It seems like that's the sort of thing
Speaker 1: that you would like post everywhere. Has it though? Yeah?
Speaker 1: But he I don't know if he does actually Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: I was under the impression that Tom Grant had it,
Speaker 1: And if Tom Grant has is it, there is no way,
Speaker 1: under God's greener he's going to let that thing out
Speaker 1: on the internet, because then he can't be you know,
Speaker 1: that's this is his cash. Yeah, that's yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: But as far as if Courtney was learning to imitate
Speaker 1: his writing, that could have been for other reasons other
Speaker 1: than forging a suicide. Now, but she forged some stuff
Speaker 1: in his name before. Yeah, exactly, So yeah, that'sn't necessary. No,
Speaker 1: I agree with um. And then I do want to
Speaker 1: point out that when Grant tells people that quote unquote,
Speaker 1: handwriting experts have said that the last bit looks different. Um,
Speaker 1: what he really means is that the quality of the
Speaker 1: scan that he, in his own words, tricked Love out
Speaker 1: of having is too low quality for anybody to be
Speaker 1: able to actually accurately analyze it. He was the fact
Speaker 1: he did. He told Courtney that he was gonna just
Speaker 1: look at it with his glasses on and then stole
Speaker 1: it from her, which is kind of shady in its
Speaker 1: own right. I agree both of them were not, but
Speaker 1: I don't blame him. I would have. I'm sorry, but
Speaker 1: if you know, I don't. I don't call fowl on
Speaker 1: that at all. No, I don't really call foul either.
Speaker 1: I just like a little shady. But like I said,
Speaker 1: both of them acting not the best, but the copy
Speaker 1: that he has which is the only copy that you
Speaker 1: know really exists right now. Courtney obviously isn't about to
Speaker 1: release the original. Anybody who looks at it can't actually
Speaker 1: analyze it, so worth mentioning. Okay, Courtney does have the
Speaker 1: original run she reportedly, Yeah, the police didn't take it.
Speaker 1: She got it best it because I mean that's how
Speaker 1: great got a copy of it. Yeah, okay. So, um,
Speaker 1: if he was murdered, who did it? Well, obviously like
Speaker 1: Courtney would have ordered it, right, I think she would
Speaker 1: have overpowered him. That's the well, I mean, the theory
Speaker 1: is is like Corney paid somebody to kill Kurt rather
Speaker 1: than doing it as a through the sheer force of
Speaker 1: her own will. Yeah yeah, well, plus Courtney was still
Speaker 1: in l A right Yeah. So um, here are some
Speaker 1: answers to who might have killed Kurt Cobain. Uh. One
Speaker 1: is a guy by the name of Alan Wrench Um
Speaker 1: this theory you will probably know um more by a
Speaker 1: guy named El Deucee Douche or Ell Douce. It's Luche,
Speaker 1: which is a total gag. I mean it's not his
Speaker 1: real name. His name made up play on another word
Speaker 1: that is a hygiene product. I mean it's it's this
Speaker 1: guy's band did some really weird stuff and I know
Speaker 1: that that's where that. Yeah, we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: his Yeah. The way that we know about this guy,
Speaker 1: whose real name is Elden Hope, was because this filmmaker
Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, Nick Broomfield, who did the
Speaker 1: documentary Kurta and Courtney, he found this guy through like
Speaker 1: a really shady weird He was like talking to two dudes,
Speaker 1: one of whom refused to show his face on camera,
Speaker 1: and they were like gonna help him break into where
Speaker 1: Courtney was recording so they could get an interview, and
Speaker 1: like it was really really kind of like weird stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then they said, oh, actually we know this guy
Speaker 1: who says that um Courtney offered to pay money, So
Speaker 1: like let's go down there and just see to kill
Speaker 1: to kill Cobain. Yeah. Uh. And his name was l Duce,
Speaker 1: again not his real name. He was the lead singer
Speaker 1: of a band called the Mentors, and he was also, uh,
Speaker 1: totally a drunk when Broomfield interviewed him at his property
Speaker 1: in California. He was super drunk. Oh, he was so loaded.
Speaker 1: He was so loaded in fact, that he offered to
Speaker 1: provide more information if they got him some more beer.
Speaker 1: That's how drunk he was. But he like nonchalantly mentions
Speaker 1: that Love offered him fifty dollars to kill Colbain. Uh.
Speaker 1: He said he turned it down, but that his friend,
Speaker 1: quote Alan, had done it. I've done some digging, and
Speaker 1: the guy that he's talking about is apparently a guy
Speaker 1: called Alan Wrench, which probably is not this guy's real name,
Speaker 1: who used to play for a band called Road Horror,
Speaker 1: which basically didn't exist, or at least I literally can't
Speaker 1: find any bit of it online either way. I've read
Speaker 1: a few things about this, mostly on Reddit, so take
Speaker 1: it with a grain of salt, please, where somebody on
Speaker 1: Reddit claims to have been friends with both El Duce
Speaker 1: and Alan, and this user claims that l d would
Speaker 1: never hurt anybody for money, but that Alan was a
Speaker 1: jerk and would totally kill somebody. Well, there we go,
Speaker 1: concrete evidence. Who was sent by Ikea because he was
Speaker 1: the wrong size for the piece of furniture that somebody bought. Well,
Speaker 1: so was the thing nobody would give this guy, even
Speaker 1: like moments thought, except for that two days after l
Speaker 1: Ducha gave his interview interview to Broomfield. He ended up
Speaker 1: dead by getting hit by a train. Um, so, I
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of the big question mark. His death
Speaker 1: was ruled accidental by police. And apparently l Ducha did
Speaker 1: have a track record of people needing to babysit him
Speaker 1: when he was dumb, because when he was drunk, because
Speaker 1: he would do stupid things. But the train he was
Speaker 1: hit by was kind of near his house, so that
Speaker 1: makes sense. But in this read a threat again, take
Speaker 1: it with a grain of salt. This guy says that
Speaker 1: l Duch was hanging out with a friend, Um and
Speaker 1: other member of the Mentors, which, by the way, their band. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the band called Sicky wife Beater, which really great names
Speaker 1: white trash actually white trash. That's not fair to white trash.
Speaker 1: Actually do you did you ever read any of the
Speaker 1: lyrics to some of the I did not because I
Speaker 1: didn't want to subject to my up to it. Holy
Speaker 1: how it's Yeah. So apparently Alan shows up, um when
Speaker 1: l Duch is hanging out with Sicky wife Beater, and um,
Speaker 1: he was angry that al Douche had said some stuff
Speaker 1: on the movie. How he two days after he gave
Speaker 1: an interview, how he found out that l do had
Speaker 1: like said those things. Who knows, that's easy. That's the
Speaker 1: grape vine have you have you. I have spent enough
Speaker 1: time with drunks and folks of that ilk that the
Speaker 1: grape vibe people just sit around and they love to
Speaker 1: tell what the what other people did. And I can
Speaker 1: just see that getting back to if this really happened.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is really happening, but I can
Speaker 1: see it very easily, getting back to the guy lightning
Speaker 1: fast and he coming over the next day and confronting him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's I mean, the story goes that Alan shows up,
Speaker 1: he's annoyed, they leave together, and then they could be
Speaker 1: morning to continue the interview. Yeah, and the next morning
Speaker 1: I'll do winds up hit by a train. You know,
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I uh, I was gonna murder
Speaker 1: somebody getting a run over by a train with that
Speaker 1: myself getting run over to it just seems like a
Speaker 1: tough way to do it. It seems like there's easier ways,
Speaker 1: not if they're drunk. I was, yeah, I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: now you know the train track, let's walk this way. Hey,
Speaker 1: come on, drunkie McGhee. Um, look, there's training mctrain face
Speaker 1: going by right now and shove. Oh you're getting sleepy.
Speaker 1: This is a great place from you. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: not nice. Um, I don't really believe it, although I
Speaker 1: will say it is. I get like, you know, it's
Speaker 1: one of those things where it's like, it is a
Speaker 1: little weird that two days after he said he totally
Speaker 1: knew who killed Kurt Cobain and made it look like
Speaker 1: an accident or or a suicide. Uh, he shows up
Speaker 1: dead by a mysterious getting hit by train accident and
Speaker 1: then the internet's favorite kind of coincidence it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's one of mine too. Actually, actually pretty cool that,
Speaker 1: you know, you would think that Alan Ranch would have
Speaker 1: gone and baited visit to Nick Broomfield. It's cameraman too.
Speaker 1: You would think he did know how to get a
Speaker 1: hold of him. Broomfield was up and down the West Coast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know so. Um. One of the other people
Speaker 1: that could have done it, I guess is the nanny Calli.
Speaker 1: So we're under our next suspect. Yeah, I don't think
Speaker 1: Calli probably did it, but I guess there's something to
Speaker 1: be said of like maybe they were getting high together.
Speaker 1: I don't really Okay, Yeah, I was gonna say this again.
Speaker 1: I was actually surprised that he is not as much
Speaker 1: of a suspect as he is. I really expected people
Speaker 1: to be like I could totally see those two in
Speaker 1: the Greenhouse using and then something happening and CALLI being like,
Speaker 1: I gotta go, oh crap. I mean, I can see
Speaker 1: this very easily being the case. Yeah, but I just
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, yeah, I can't see it myself. I
Speaker 1: can't either. But I don't know anything about Callie's well,
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about Callie either, But I mean
Speaker 1: I just know that I think Callie and what was
Speaker 1: he the guy who bought the Dylan, both of them,
Speaker 1: I think they lived off of the Cobain money for
Speaker 1: a long time after Kurt was gone through Courtney, she
Speaker 1: supported them. So I'm sure that if something happened and
Speaker 1: it was an accident, I could see him going, oh god,
Speaker 1: I just did this. Oh God, I am so screwed
Speaker 1: because I can't afford this much heroin and I had
Speaker 1: this great gig going on and I'm just gonna walk
Speaker 1: out of the room and I wasn't here, yea, So
Speaker 1: it was yeah, well, yeah, I saw he was playing
Speaker 1: with the shock Enny blue Kurt's head off, or they
Speaker 1: were screwed or arguing or whatever. I mean, because there
Speaker 1: is the letter that was left on the stairs that
Speaker 1: Grant Tom Grant, Yeah, from Cali. The Tom Grant says
Speaker 1: was a forgery of some kind. There's all kinds of
Speaker 1: machinations about it. But the point is he wrote a
Speaker 1: letter and it wasn't all that positive to Kurt, and
Speaker 1: he could have done that after the fact, going I
Speaker 1: was there, let's do this thing to direct suspicion weight
Speaker 1: for me. I guess the only again, I'm playing Devil's
Speaker 1: here totally absolutely, But I think like the problem I
Speaker 1: have with that is that it was It's totally reasonable
Speaker 1: for Callie to have found the body. You know, like
Speaker 1: if you if that happened, you like wait a day, right,
Speaker 1: and then you call the cops and you say, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I just found my employer's body. That implies
Speaker 1: logical raps sober sober thinking. You're right, that's true when
Speaker 1: you are do use. We don't know that CALLI was
Speaker 1: using at all. Yeah, Keli was totally in in the
Speaker 1: on the team. How how is it to you hire
Speaker 1: a nanny for your daughter because it's your friend. You
Speaker 1: want to help her love. Yeah, if you want to
Speaker 1: help your friends, so you help your friend out. And
Speaker 1: you just know usual while you're watching the kid, your
Speaker 1: girlfriend can get high. But you, I mean, people do
Speaker 1: this kind of weird stuff all the time. So that's
Speaker 1: why I say that it's completely plausible. Okay, here's just
Speaker 1: one more interesting thing before we start talking about maybe
Speaker 1: it was suicide. Courtney Love alleged that Kurt Cobain was
Speaker 1: having an affair, specifically that he was having an affair
Speaker 1: with Um, the bassis of Love's band Hole Um, whose
Speaker 1: name was Kristen Faff, and at the very least, Faff
Speaker 1: and Cobain were very good friends. I don't know if
Speaker 1: they were having an affair or not, but um, I
Speaker 1: don't think we'll ever know. Uh. She, like almost everybody
Speaker 1: else in this entire story, had a pretty strong heroin addiction.
Speaker 1: She had gone to detox in February of um and
Speaker 1: she was reportedly clean, but took Cobain's death really, really hard,
Speaker 1: as you can imagine a close friend or potentially lover
Speaker 1: who knows dies in kind of a brutal, violent way. Um,
Speaker 1: she quit whole and decided to move back to Minneapolis,
Speaker 1: where she was originally from. She was living in Seattle
Speaker 1: at the time. Well that's where the scene was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's where well, that's where hole was whole all
Speaker 1: live together, that's where Seattle. Yeah. On June sixteenth night, however,
Speaker 1: she was found dead of a heroin overdose in her
Speaker 1: apartment in Seattle. Well, I mean that a lot of
Speaker 1: people do think this death was pretty suspicious. Even fast
Speaker 1: family feels that her death wasn't a suicide or an
Speaker 1: accidental overdose. They think there was some foul play involved.
Speaker 1: And yeah, every time I hear about some junkie turning
Speaker 1: up dead of an overdose. Yeah, yeah. She had reportedly
Speaker 1: been like successfully clean for those months. And again, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like she was in Seattle, she was with her friends.
Speaker 1: She's probably using again. Um, but that's the same thing
Speaker 1: that I talked about before, those that if you're off
Speaker 1: of it for a while and you're like, hey, I
Speaker 1: can take three CC's no problem, I don't know, and
Speaker 1: it doesn't work, and then that's what puts you in
Speaker 1: the ground. I thought one website very eloquently put it
Speaker 1: that both fat and Cobain were in the process of
Speaker 1: leaving Love. It's I mean, it's true. Yeah, that's very true.
Speaker 1: They were both leaving her and standing in her way
Speaker 1: of a lot of success and money. Basically, Um, but that's,
Speaker 1: you know, just one one person theory. Next up, let's
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the number two, number two
Speaker 1: super number two. He had a number two suicide in
Speaker 1: this eighteen hour episode. In an interview one of Cobain's friends,
Speaker 1: I got to be honest, I do not recall which
Speaker 1: one said that if Courtney Love didn't kill or have
Speaker 1: Cobain killed, that she drove him to it. And I
Speaker 1: think I don't really like Courtney Love very much. It
Speaker 1: may may not be coming across, but I don't really
Speaker 1: like her very much. I think that she wanted a
Speaker 1: lot of things that Colbain did not want. I think
Speaker 1: she was really worried about the money in the relationship,
Speaker 1: the fame and the relationship. I think she wanted a
Speaker 1: lot of things and was trying to push him to
Speaker 1: do a lot of things that he didn't necessarily want
Speaker 1: to do. I mean, you know, case in points, she
Speaker 1: really did not approve of him, like canceling, lollapalooza, Yah,
Speaker 1: she really did not a lot of money. She really
Speaker 1: did not approve of him, like not having Nirvana be
Speaker 1: a thing anymore. Yeah, I think that she was very controlling.
Speaker 1: I mean of her referred to as a harpie before,
Speaker 1: which I will not disagree to a point. Seems to
Speaker 1: be an accurate description of her behavior at the time.
Speaker 1: And I'm not I'm not saying that's her or the
Speaker 1: drugs or what, but you know what I mean, it's
Speaker 1: easy to to point the finger after the fact. It's
Speaker 1: the same thing as as the he was suicidal in Rome. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's easy to say after fact, look at how controlling
Speaker 1: she Wasn't all these things she did that drove him
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's turned the
Speaker 1: coin which way you want. Well, I guess you know.
Speaker 1: One of the things I'll point out is that she
Speaker 1: hired a private detective to find Kurt and then play games,
Speaker 1: and well, she stayed in l A. She knew Cobain
Speaker 1: was in Seattle, but she stayed in l A because
Speaker 1: she said she had business to take care of down there.
Speaker 1: If you really thought that your husband was like suicidal
Speaker 1: and like on a bender, if you knew in what
Speaker 1: city he was in. Would you just be like, you
Speaker 1: know what, I'm just gonna stay here though, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to go up there. And yeah, I can find
Speaker 1: again rational sober thinking. But also, you know, she did
Speaker 1: hire a private detective. I mean, it's certain amount of
Speaker 1: expense to go to to try to track down your
Speaker 1: potentially suicidal husband. She did. Yeah, so I mean, you know, again,
Speaker 1: it's flipped of a coin either way. I I think
Speaker 1: it's likely that she wanted a lot from her life
Speaker 1: that Cobain didn't. And it does sound like they were
Speaker 1: in the process us of they're at least in a
Speaker 1: rough patch. She tried to get into movies after she wasn't.
Speaker 1: She did at least one vie. I thought she did
Speaker 1: one or two movies after she cleaned up. I mean,
Speaker 1: she really was striving for that music Hollywood fame model.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like and it sounds like Cobain really
Speaker 1: did not like that. He wanted to live a totally
Speaker 1: different life. And so, you know, who can say what
Speaker 1: causes somebody to kill themselves. But I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: she helped the situation at all. But I'm also not
Speaker 1: saying he's she's responsible either. Yeah, Cobain. So here's some
Speaker 1: like we're just kind of listing off, sorry, like reasons
Speaker 1: that he might have killed himself. Cobain had been apparently
Speaker 1: trying to get clean for a while. He'd gone to
Speaker 1: rehab and detox a number of times and it had
Speaker 1: never stuck. So it's possible that he just hit a
Speaker 1: point where he was like, this is never gonna work.
Speaker 1: I'm going to live my life as an addict and
Speaker 1: that's just dumb and I don't want to do it.
Speaker 1: And I'm noting that as like that's what I think
Speaker 1: people should be feeling. I'm saying that as that's something
Speaker 1: that I've read from people talking about interpretation. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I mean like people who are actual in recovery saying
Speaker 1: I hit a point in my life where I thought
Speaker 1: this isn't worth living. I can't do this, I can't
Speaker 1: ever get clean, and it's not worth living if I
Speaker 1: can't get clean, and then trying to kill themselves and
Speaker 1: obviously being unsuccessful and eventually being successful in recovering. But
Speaker 1: that's a that's a fairly common thought with like very
Speaker 1: heavy addicts of certain things. I can see that, you know,
Speaker 1: you realize the necessity to get clean, but you realize
Speaker 1: at the same time it's like your life as a
Speaker 1: non high person is like just kind of like hell, well,
Speaker 1: if that or I mean if that or that, you
Speaker 1: will never like, if you've tried to get clean a
Speaker 1: number of times and it keeps not working, you may
Speaker 1: just think it's never gonna happen. I'm always going to
Speaker 1: be addicted to heroin. I may as well just kill myself.
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, there's a well, there's a is not
Speaker 1: the only addiction. I mean, addictions in general causes that
Speaker 1: reaction or the thought process, and then I guess another
Speaker 1: thing to bring up. Um, I know, I you know,
Speaker 1: I've been harping on the He wasn't suicidal. He wasn't suicidal.
Speaker 1: They weren't suicide attempts. But you know what, maybe he was.
Speaker 1: Maybe he actually did try to kill himself in Rome.
Speaker 1: Maybe he actually did try to kill himself in his
Speaker 1: house in Seattle and March eighteenth, but they were trying
Speaker 1: to cover it up because I mean, it's totally possible
Speaker 1: that he was suicidal and that at every turn, every attempt,
Speaker 1: there was just a pr push to say no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: he's not suicidal. These are all accidents because you don't
Speaker 1: like who what publicist in this world is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's totally fine to tell everybody that my client is suicidal,
Speaker 1: and you know, like that's not that's not good. So
Speaker 1: it's it's certainly possible. The police report did say he
Speaker 1: said he wasn't suicidal, but like maybe he realized that
Speaker 1: it Like you don't tell a police officer I'm suicide.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, they all will take you to jail, they'll
Speaker 1: lock you up, they'll put health Yeah yeah. Well here's why.
Speaker 1: I'm sure Courtney Love did not murder him or have
Speaker 1: him murdered, and she didn't have to hit the hand strength.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I don't. I don't believe el Duch who
Speaker 1: you know about the offer or anything like that. And
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is Courtney Um is the
Speaker 1: one who initiated the intervention to try to get him
Speaker 1: cleaned up. And I gotta tell you, if you're planning
Speaker 1: on murdering your husband, if you want him dead, why
Speaker 1: would you want to get him off heroin I'd be
Speaker 1: the last thing in the world you would do. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean if I had been and she's obviously was,
Speaker 1: she was a drug. She had good connections street hair
Speaker 1: when it was like what maybe at the most, and
Speaker 1: she probably had the connections to get some really super
Speaker 1: pure stuff she could just Maybe that's why he had
Speaker 1: so much of his names. Maybe she did try to
Speaker 1: kill him. Maybe she got some super pure stuff swapped
Speaker 1: it in with his and that's how we wanted was
Speaker 1: so much. Heroin is his system. But I think more
Speaker 1: likely he was planning on killing himself and he thought
Speaker 1: he'd just go out on the floating on the greatest
Speaker 1: high ever is what I think he did. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: to see that, my problem is if he intended to
Speaker 1: do himself in and he was gonna get high ahead
Speaker 1: of time, and it is very common knowledge that people
Speaker 1: can easily o d on heroin, then why bring the
Speaker 1: gun in? Why not just go? You know what, I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna keep pushing the plunger down until I don't
Speaker 1: wake up again and I can I still move my hand,
Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna keep going. I mean, that's certain,
Speaker 1: and it's it's not It's also not dramatic. I mean,
Speaker 1: do you you know he probably asked that to hself
Speaker 1: that I want to be do I want to be
Speaker 1: known as his tormentitor artist who killed himself, or as
Speaker 1: a junkie who's screwed up and ode what do I
Speaker 1: want to be known as? Yeah, And actually it's interesting.
Speaker 1: I don't think that there's any better. I don't think
Speaker 1: one is any better than the other. But that's my
Speaker 1: personal pain. Well, there's a there's a quote from one
Speaker 1: of his friends that says, you know, it was really
Speaker 1: violent death, Like it's that, which is true. I mean,
Speaker 1: you shoot yourself in the face with a shotgun. But
Speaker 1: it was interesting because then this quote that you know,
Speaker 1: his friend was saying, um, that wasn't hurt. It's weird.
Speaker 1: There was no violence in Curt and it's weird that
Speaker 1: he chose to go out that way, which I think
Speaker 1: is a fair thing to say. But I also, I mean,
Speaker 1: you pass out before you die from heroin, I mean,
Speaker 1: you just do right. And so if you're trying to
Speaker 1: kill yourself like by Odee, there's it's not certain that
Speaker 1: you're going to die. You might just wake up and
Speaker 1: be living in hell, right, as opposed to if you
Speaker 1: stick a shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger,
Speaker 1: you're probably gonna die, especially if you've taken a bunch
Speaker 1: of heroin. I mean, it's just it's certainty, you know,
Speaker 1: it's that backup plan. But I hear it again. I again,
Speaker 1: if if I don't want to belabor this, it's just
Speaker 1: that I think if the guy wanted to get hot
Speaker 1: before he did it, then why not just get so
Speaker 1: high that you go out and you don't have to
Speaker 1: lift a finger. He could have been close, Frankly, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we don't know what his tolerance was, so
Speaker 1: he could have been really close to being that high.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I do think that it's pretty
Speaker 1: definitive that he was not murdered. Well, I think I
Speaker 1: think either way, I can see the arguments of a side.
Speaker 1: That's that's my problem with this case. That's why I
Speaker 1: didn't throw up the red flag of why are we
Speaker 1: doing this? Is because I can see the arguments whether
Speaker 1: I behind him or not. And I thought it was.
Speaker 1: But the only person who had a motive to murder
Speaker 1: him was Courtney Love as far as I know, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there you go, Courtney and Courtney again, Courtney would not
Speaker 1: have sent him to rehab if she wanted him dead.
Speaker 1: She I mean, she would have what she would have
Speaker 1: done if she would have waited until he was off
Speaker 1: somewhere in the greenhouse getting you know, shooting up. She
Speaker 1: would have waited until he was kind of like just
Speaker 1: laid back and just sat like oh, and then she
Speaker 1: just would have stepped into the room with the hypodermic
Speaker 1: and shot a whole bunch more haroin into his arm
Speaker 1: and killed him that way. There's no need to use
Speaker 1: a shotgun. She would have let him die in Rome. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she would have let him dye in Rome for that matter.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it simply makes no sense that
Speaker 1: Courtney was a murderer. Absolutely not. I've said it before
Speaker 1: and I'll say it again that that implies rational thinking.
Speaker 1: Known enough people who were so irrational that I just
Speaker 1: they're hot and cold. I think for me, the biggest
Speaker 1: thing about this case is that it was such a
Speaker 1: huge failure on the part of the Seattle police. They
Speaker 1: found the body, declared the instantly it was Suicially it
Speaker 1: was a suicide, and they claimed that because the beat
Speaker 1: cop that responded to the call said it kind of
Speaker 1: looked like a suicide, and not like from the mouth
Speaker 1: of the guy who was the police chief at the time.
Speaker 1: He said, well, if the if the guy who responds says,
Speaker 1: it looks like a suicide, and the paramedics, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: then it's a suicide. They didn't get a talk screen back,
Speaker 1: they didn't get fingerprints back, they didn't process, They did nothing,
Speaker 1: And that I think is probably why this is even
Speaker 1: a case right now. They didn't know who he was.
Speaker 1: He didn't know who he I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: that when they made their decision of what it was,
Speaker 1: they didn't know who he was. To realize that they
Speaker 1: had to do their due diligence before they got their
Speaker 1: ass is handed to. I guess the thing that annoys
Speaker 1: me about that statement is that, like, it shouldn't matter
Speaker 1: who he was. That was they found heroin paraphernalia like
Speaker 1: two feet away from him, he obviously would have had
Speaker 1: track marks. He yes, okay, so there was a shotgun,
Speaker 1: you know, on him, and it looked like a suicide.
Speaker 1: But you at least wait for a talk screen if
Speaker 1: you found drugs in the room, you gotta wait for
Speaker 1: a talk screen before you You just can't declare at
Speaker 1: the scene. And I think for me that's the biggest
Speaker 1: frustration with this case. Whether know, I don't think Courtney
Speaker 1: Love is a particularly good human being, whether I think
Speaker 1: you know anything, the fact that the Seattle Police did
Speaker 1: such a crap job on this is just frustrating as hell.
Speaker 1: I think the other reason that this has gone on
Speaker 1: so long is that there's been so many There's been
Speaker 1: so many things that were thrown into the mix that
Speaker 1: really they're weird, and it's because it's I'm famous slash
Speaker 1: Hollywood slash big rocker guy weird, Like the whole he
Speaker 1: had stomach issues thing that which we're no. Well, you
Speaker 1: know what's funny is that I remember I remember when
Speaker 1: the news came out on MTV news because I was
Speaker 1: at some trip high school trip with a bunch of
Speaker 1: friends and it came out, and I remember one body turning, going,
Speaker 1: you know that he's totally had stomach issues for years
Speaker 1: and like he could barely eat and move, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure that that's totally what did it? Like, those are
Speaker 1: the kind of things that you hear and that's stuck
Speaker 1: with me for decades. You know what, Stomach pains are
Speaker 1: really good sign of withdraw That's a good point, But
Speaker 1: I think we're going on too long. I think I
Speaker 1: think we've already solved the mystery he wasn't murdered, he
Speaker 1: committed suicide. Yeah, I mean I think that's probably true too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was suicide. I think there's a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: going on with the case. But the Seattle, the Seattle see,
Speaker 1: the Seattle p D did not do their due diligence.
Speaker 1: They really should have, you know, been a little more.
Speaker 1: I'm sure they looked into it a bit, and then
Speaker 1: they went back to that police report. They know he
Speaker 1: was locked in the bedroom and suicidal, and then Courtney says, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: he tried to give it suicide in Italy, you know,
Speaker 1: and so that was probably for them all they needed.
Speaker 1: I don't think they even did that much, to be honest.
Speaker 1: It might not be, but you know, that's that's just
Speaker 1: the way it is, you know, with you know those
Speaker 1: guys have you know, I mean we all cut corners, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it happens except with the podcast. Yeah, but everybody cats corners.
Speaker 1: So they were just like you. And then there's always
Speaker 1: this group think and you just sort of get into
Speaker 1: that whole, like, you know, everybody thinks it's suicide. I
Speaker 1: guess it's suicide. So yeah, but in this case, I
Speaker 1: think it was. Yeah, I agree, everything seems to point
Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, it's just you know, frustrating. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, anyway, I've got more theories, but I need
Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom. So should we wrap this up? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's wrap this up because probably have to go to
Speaker 1: the bathroom too. Probably they're like circling the block waiting
Speaker 1: to go to work. You can if you want to
Speaker 1: see some of the research we did. We'll post some
Speaker 1: of those links, not all of them. We might post
Speaker 1: a couple extra links this week. Steve Um maybe soaked
Speaker 1: in bleach and not um, but you can find that
Speaker 1: on our website, which is Thinking Side with podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: You can leave comments on this episode if you want.
Speaker 1: You can also stream us straight from the website, um,
Speaker 1: if you so choose. I know we have just a
Speaker 1: few people who do that. Also on the website there
Speaker 1: are links for like merch and donations and stuff like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've updated the merch. You can get stickers and stuff
Speaker 1: now which is and was sold like sex of those yesterday,
Speaker 1: I think six whole stickers. It's yeah. Um, So if
Speaker 1: you want to buy merch, if you want to do
Speaker 1: a one time donation through PayPal, or if you want
Speaker 1: to become one of our sustaining donors through Patreon links.
Speaker 1: UM are on the website for that as well. You
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Speaker 1: leave a comments generating if you haven't already. That's how
Speaker 1: people find us and you make us rise through the ranks,
Speaker 1: like Nobody's business. Yeah we want that. Yeah don't. If
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Speaker 1: to have a conversation with us, don't do it there
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Speaker 1: We have the group in the page. Like the page,
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Speaker 1: We have a Twitter which is Thinking Sideways, which is
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Speaker 1: subreddit which is thinking Sideways. Are thinking Sideways. There's some
Speaker 1: stuff going on there a little bit. The more that
Speaker 1: you join, the more that will have happening. You can
Speaker 1: email us if you have suggestions, comments, you want to
Speaker 1: talk about things, you just want to express your undying love.
Speaker 1: That no, not website, that email address. Take an email
Speaker 1: address is Thinking Sideways podcast at email dot com. I
Speaker 1: think that's all of them that, having all been said,
Speaker 1: we're going to get out of here. We'll talk to
Speaker 1: you guys next week. So by oh Oh my teen Spirit.
Speaker 1: No