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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by discrubby piece

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Speaker 1: of paper I'm holding. Instead, it's supported by the generous

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Speaker 1: donations of our listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com

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Speaker 1: slash thinking sideways to learn more and thanks Thinking Sideways.

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Speaker 1: I don't think you never know stories of things. We

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Speaker 1: simply don't know the answer too. Hey, guys, welcome to

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Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. I'm Devin, joined

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Speaker 1: as always by Joe and Steve Um. We're gonna not

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Speaker 1: even close to solve a mry We're just gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about a mystery tonight. It's probably right. No, we're not

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Speaker 1: going to solve it. We're going to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: The topic tonight is the death of Kurt Cobain. I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna go any further than the before. I stop

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Speaker 1: and say, if you suggested this as a listener, you're

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Speaker 1: not going to hear your name red because there are

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Speaker 1: too dang many of you. Yeah, this one's a pretty

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Speaker 1: popular request, like a lot of people all the time,

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Speaker 1: Like literally since we started the podcast. Actually, we've been

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Speaker 1: getting suggestions for this, so finally we decided to tackle it.

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Speaker 1: And actually it was because I recently took a trip

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Speaker 1: to Seattle. We went to the Experienced Music Project Museum,

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Speaker 1: which is up in Seattle. What is that again. It's

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Speaker 1: a museum that's dedicated to music and pop culture. I

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Speaker 1: hadn't heard of it before, so that's why it's freaking awesome.

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Speaker 1: We used to go there when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: and like you can like play on instruments and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff, and um, along with the Hello Kitty exhibit

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Speaker 1: that I tweeted some pictures while we were there, Um

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Speaker 1: yeah there was one. Yeah, um there was also I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that, but there was also an exhibit not exhibition,

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Speaker 1: exhibit um about Nirvana and they had all of the

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Speaker 1: hit a bunch of Cobain's clothes and some memorabilia and

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Speaker 1: like letters that he wrote and polaroids and all that stuff. Replica,

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Speaker 1: no wax rep clause. No, it was very tastely done. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I guess I just started to think about that

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Speaker 1: whole You know, you don't think about people as people

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Speaker 1: a lot, right, Celebrities You don't really think about that

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Speaker 1: so much. But I started thinking about it, and then

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Speaker 1: I started to think about his death, and then I

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Speaker 1: just decided we should do an episode on it. So

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Speaker 1: that's a long preamble. You know. One thing that when

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Speaker 1: in doing a little research on this is I'm amazed

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Speaker 1: at how long it's been since he died. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem Yeah, it seems like a long time because I

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Speaker 1: remember it. Yeah, I remember it too, but it just

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Speaker 1: didn't seem like it was that long ago. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: it wasn't. I mean, I mean, I don't remember it

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Speaker 1: because I was too young to remember it, but I

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Speaker 1: was alive at least. So there's that. Um. And then,

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Speaker 1: as an additional preamble to this, this is a huge,

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Speaker 1: huge case, like huge, lots of research has been done

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Speaker 1: on it. And that's not to say that the rest

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Speaker 1: of the cases we do are not huge, but this

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Speaker 1: one is extra huge. And I just want to remind

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Speaker 1: anybody or let people know if they don't know. UM.

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Speaker 1: Our podcast is intended as a primary course or an

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Speaker 1: overview of cases. So there are going to be things

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Speaker 1: that we're gonna gloss over or we're gonna omit, or

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Speaker 1: that we won't include in the episode. And that's just

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Speaker 1: how it is. I'm sorry. Look at the important stuff

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Speaker 1: we I mean, I think we do usually get the

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Speaker 1: important stuff, but if your only point of context for

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Speaker 1: this is like the Soaked in Bleach documentary on Netflix,

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Speaker 1: or it's only Curtain Courtney also on Netflix, or it's

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Speaker 1: only or you've never heard of it. I encourage you

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Speaker 1: to do more research because this is not This isn't everything.

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Speaker 1: It's the ton out there and it's it's a celebrity.

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Speaker 1: So therefore the sory is on the scale of reflective

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Speaker 1: of the scale of that celebrity, and so that's that's

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Speaker 1: why there's so much out there. So I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to remind people before we get into it there we're

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Speaker 1: gonna miss things. Sorry, but we're going to miss things.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we must do any important things. I

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Speaker 1: don't think so either, but I'm sure that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, everybody has their favorite detail, so we might

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Speaker 1: miss it, and I'm sorry if we do, but we

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Speaker 1: probably know that we did. Okay, okay, cool labored that

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Speaker 1: point long enough. We did, all right. So first off,

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Speaker 1: like we did with Bob Marley, I'd like to assume

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Speaker 1: that everybody knows who Kurt Cobaine is, but I guess

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Speaker 1: I probably can't. Do you get you guys remember the nineties.

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Speaker 1: I remember some of the nineties and there was especially

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Speaker 1: especially in the Pacific Northwest. The nineties grunge era was

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Speaker 1: taking effect, and a large part of that was in

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Speaker 1: thanks to a band called Nirvana. You are I'm impressed.

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Speaker 1: I'm not actually impressed. You plaid frequently, but thanks. Yeah. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But you guys know Nirvana. You know Vana. You just

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Speaker 1: do if you if you think you don't know who

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Speaker 1: Nirvana is, just pause this episode and go look up

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Speaker 1: Nirvana and like, just listen to any song that comes up,

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Speaker 1: and you will recognize Nirvana. I was really surprised when

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Speaker 1: I was doing the research. I didn't realize they only

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Speaker 1: put out three albums as big as they were. For

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Speaker 1: some reason in my mind it was I figured it

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Speaker 1: was a half dozen. Well that's the interesting part, right.

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Speaker 1: They became so ubiquitous so fast. It was just really

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Speaker 1: it was insane. I mean, as soon as the radio

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Speaker 1: picked up smells like teen Spirit that they just became

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Speaker 1: And almost every song off of their albums were hits.

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Speaker 1: You know. It wasn't like one of those albums you

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Speaker 1: pick up now where you recognize one song. It was

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Speaker 1: just all of them are popular songs. So Kurt Cobain

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Speaker 1: was the frontman for Nirvana, and there's a ton of

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Speaker 1: history in the band, and I won't go into it,

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Speaker 1: but you should probably get up because bands and music

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Speaker 1: are interesting and awesome. Cobain was I'm not making this up.

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Speaker 1: This is an actual quote. Um. He was called, quote,

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Speaker 1: the spokesman of a generation, next generation. Thank you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He and Nirvana rose quickly in popularity as we were mentioning,

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Speaker 1: and Nirvana to this day is regarded as one of

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Speaker 1: the most influential and important rock bands of the modern era.

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Speaker 1: That's I mean, I know that sounds like a bold statement,

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Speaker 1: but it's true. Yeah, it's possible. You also know of

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Speaker 1: Dave Grohl or very least the Food Fighters again, yeah

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Speaker 1: you do, go look it up. Um Groll was the

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Speaker 1: drummer for Nirvana. I totally had spaced that out when

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Speaker 1: I was doing the reading. Why is his name all

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Speaker 1: over the stuff? Oh yeah yeah yeah, so yeah, Cobain

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Speaker 1: huge influence on music, pretty much everything that is modern rock.

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Speaker 1: I said it, deal with it. We're gonna get a

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Speaker 1: lot of emails. Yeah, yeah, we're getting regardless regardless. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and actually I guess so before we go too far

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Speaker 1: into the mystery. The mystery is that Kurt Cobain committed

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Speaker 1: suicide on April, the age of arguably at the height

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Speaker 1: of his career. I mean, you know he could have yeah,

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Speaker 1: he could have putting him into club. Yeah he was

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Speaker 1: part of the Seven Club um. But a lot of

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Speaker 1: people think that, uh he was not. Actually he was

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Speaker 1: actually murdered. He was didn't actually kill himself. So that's

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Speaker 1: our mystery. Did Kurt Cobain commits suicide or not? And

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Speaker 1: if I really have to say it, it's a suicide story.

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Speaker 1: So if that's the thing that bothers you, stop now. Yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 1: suicide bothers me. So I'm gonna go. Okay, bye, Steve.

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Speaker 1: You ready? Yeah? Great, Let's go back to important characters.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with that right In Um January of nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 1: Kurt met Portland local and frontwoman for the band that

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Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say most people haven't actually

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Speaker 1: heard of, called Whole Um and her name was Courtney Love.

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Speaker 1: The Whole really form in ninety I thought they formed later. No, No, no,

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Speaker 1: whole was I'm sorry, I'm just saying whole like that's

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Speaker 1: where you would know Courtney Love. Okay, not that the

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Speaker 1: band formed in ninety I think they were. I think

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Speaker 1: you know, they I think it was later on that

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Speaker 1: they were starting to get bigger, had been around Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe even earlier than that. Also, it's unfair to say

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Speaker 1: that nobody's heard of Whole. You've probably heard Whole songs.

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Speaker 1: You just don't know it. It was a joke. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: I'm Also it's also not a percent sure that that's

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Speaker 1: where they met, but it doesn't really matter. They probably

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Speaker 1: met in Portland. I know he played a lot of

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Speaker 1: gigs in Portland. Yeah, well they were from Seattle. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Courtney Love is probably, uh like, one of the most

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Speaker 1: ridiculed celebrities of all times. Ever, I would say she

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Speaker 1: has habitually abused drugs and alcohol. She has had lots

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Speaker 1: of legal trouble as well. A few months after Cobain's death,

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Speaker 1: Love actually punched someone at Lollapalooza, which started a string

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Speaker 1: of arrests, um and she was banned from a lot

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Speaker 1: of places, including Virgin Airlines. Like the entire airline, she

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Speaker 1: was no longer allowed to fly with them. She assaulted

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Speaker 1: a stewardess. Typical. Yeah. Yeah, I will say this that

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Speaker 1: despite her substance abuse problems prior to Cobain's death. It

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Speaker 1: seems that her problems were her legal problems at least,

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Speaker 1: were really spurred by his death. She didn't really have

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Speaker 1: many legal problems before he died. Yeat, and you know,

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Speaker 1: she wasn't arrested or anything like that. They seemed like

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Speaker 1: a pretty normal couple, you know, as normal as you

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Speaker 1: can be in the famous nineties grunge era. They got

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Speaker 1: married in February of ninety two. Love wore a lace

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Speaker 1: and satin wedding dress and Cobain wore green pajamas. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and um, Love was pregnant at the time when they

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Speaker 1: were married, and she gave birth to their only child,

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Speaker 1: whose name is Frances Bean in August. Did he of

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Speaker 1: you guys look at pictures of Frances. I think she's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: She I was really surprised at how much she looks

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Speaker 1: like her mom. Yeah, for some reason, this is dumb,

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Speaker 1: but I expected her to look more like her father,

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Speaker 1: and it was shocking to see a sober version or

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Speaker 1: clean version. Of course she has. She has Kurt's eyes,

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Speaker 1: I would say, really really piercing blue eyes. Frances up

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Speaker 1: to these days anyway, she's an artist. She's getting a

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Speaker 1: divorce she's getting divorced. Tom Grant is another important player

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Speaker 1: and this whole thing most of the time you'll here

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Speaker 1: Grant referred to as an exemplary man, at least definitely

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Speaker 1: in his own documentaries. Uh, he was a detective in

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Speaker 1: l A. And then he retired and became a private detective.

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Speaker 1: Definitely been the loudest proponent of the Cobain murder theory.

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Speaker 1: He was hired by Love on April th after Cobaine

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Speaker 1: escaped from a rehab facility in l A. On marcht one.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about the whole series of

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Speaker 1: events in a minute. So this is really just pretty much, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the important people, so that when we're going through I

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Speaker 1: don't have to pause to say all that stuff. Grant

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Speaker 1: almost immediately started recording almost literally every conversation and event

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Speaker 1: that happened around this case. He's I mean, he's thousands

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Speaker 1: of hours of recordings. And while many of the conversations

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Speaker 1: that he taped were with a woman by the name

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Speaker 1: of Rosemary Carroll, who is slash was the entertainment lawyer

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Speaker 1: for Courtney and Kurt both. The interesting thing about Rosemary

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Speaker 1: Carroll is that in recordings she very clearly agrees with

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Speaker 1: Grant about most of his theories, but refuses to go

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Speaker 1: on the record of any kind to say those things.

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Speaker 1: In fact, in one of the recordings, you can hear

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Speaker 1: her agreeing with Grant and then uh, she goes, wait

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Speaker 1: are you recording? And he says, I record everything, and

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Speaker 1: she goes, you can't do that. Stop and he stops

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Speaker 1: the recording. She says a couple other words that I

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Speaker 1: that we don't say on our podcast. Oh. When she

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Speaker 1: discovers it's she does say a few things. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: this might confuse people her refusal to go on the record,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't really confuse me that much. Courtney Love

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Speaker 1: is still her client. She's a lawyer. She's a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and her firm represents people like Jay Z for instance.

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Speaker 1: It's a big firm of big talent, and you you

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Speaker 1: can't go around accusing your clients of murder in the

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Speaker 1: public if you want to retain any of your clients. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it makes sense to me. Who knows, maybe you

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Speaker 1: can even be disbarred for saying stuff like that. Seems

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Speaker 1: like you probably could. I don't really know anyway. So

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Speaker 1: you'll hear that tossed around a lot, but I just

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Speaker 1: want to go on the record of saying it doesn't

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Speaker 1: really bother me that much that she won't go on

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Speaker 1: the record. Okay, those are the big ones, big three

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Speaker 1: with a couple. Yeah, talk about those when we get there. Timeline.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about timeline. Alright. We're just gonna do a

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Speaker 1: series of events here, and we're actually going to start

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Speaker 1: a little earlier than April. We're gonna start in early

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Speaker 1: March in Germany. Um, sorry, Nirvana was on tour in Europe,

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Speaker 1: I should say, and in Germany, Cobain was diagnosed with

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Speaker 1: bronchitis and severe laryngitis. It does. Yeah, so when you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes his singing was more screaming. But it's still tough

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Speaker 1: to do still, like you just can't do it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have to be able to produce noise. Yes, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't really work if you've got laryngitis or bronchitis. Where

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Speaker 1: on thing it does. I don't think it's really Nirvana style,

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Speaker 1: but maybe yeah, that it was more the guitars smashing

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Speaker 1: than anything. Yeah, as you can imagine. Um, Kurt decided

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Speaker 1: to get treatment for the said bronchitis and laryngitis, so

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Speaker 1: he flew to Rome for treatment, because why not if

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Speaker 1: you have a lot of money, may as we'll go

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Speaker 1: to Rome for treatment instead of staying in Germany. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Probably, well it actually it turns out that

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Speaker 1: Courtney Love. I'm gonna try to refer to people by

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Speaker 1: the last names, but I might forget. But Love really

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Speaker 1: really likes Roman history, So I suspect there might have

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Speaker 1: been something there that he thought, oh, well, maybe she'll

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Speaker 1: come with me if I go hang out in Rome

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Speaker 1: or something like that. You know what I heard about

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Speaker 1: that heard that about her, that that's that's kind of

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Speaker 1: surprised me. It really surprising. I did not imagine that

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Speaker 1: there Courtney Love that we didn't know about. Well, um,

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Speaker 1: Courtney Love did join him in Rome, in fact, and

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Speaker 1: on March three, Cobain had, according to Love, gone all out.

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Speaker 1: He'd gotten her flowers, he had Champagne ready. He was

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Speaker 1: basically like super cute, excited and romantic. He even apparently

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Speaker 1: got her a piece of the Colosseum because apparently, you know,

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Speaker 1: she loves Roman history, so she went down to the

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Speaker 1: Colisseum with his hammer. Yeah, and it probably isn't actually

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Speaker 1: from the Colosseum. Okay, when she arrived, Love says, they

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Speaker 1: opened the champagne and she popped a valium because stress,

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Speaker 1: I guess, and they made out a little bit and

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Speaker 1: then she fell asleep. Yeah, and I think you know

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Speaker 1: that that would upset me. Well, it would. But didn't

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Speaker 1: she fly in from the States? Yeah, wouldn't she have

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Speaker 1: like horrible jet leg And in addition to it depends

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Speaker 1: on when she Oh you mean that, So she would

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Speaker 1: have fallen asleep anyway because she would have been really,

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Speaker 1: really tired. Yeah, it depends on when she flew. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, valium will knock you out. And so I

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Speaker 1: don't know what why she did that. I would be

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Speaker 1: annoyed if my wife husband showed up in Rome and

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Speaker 1: I hadn't seen him for a long time and you know,

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Speaker 1: was being really romantic and then he was just like okay,

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Speaker 1: but sleep. Yeah I didn't know. I can see that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So around four am, she woke up from her value

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Speaker 1: and induced coma apparently to find Cobaine passed out on

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Speaker 1: the floor and he was rushed to the hospital. He

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Speaker 1: had apparently overdosed on real hypnol, which you probably know

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Speaker 1: as Rufie's, which there aren't actually intended for like date

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Speaker 1: rape stuff. They're actually just sleep aids um and it

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Speaker 1: was it was Love's prescription that he had. He had

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Speaker 1: taken some of her pills, and she very famously says

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Speaker 1: that there were like fifth that he had taken, like

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Speaker 1: fifty pills. I want to know why the heck she

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Speaker 1: had fifty of them, Honor Well, I mean why not?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what what do you usually get as a

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Speaker 1: prescription of something? Yeah, I think that is an excessive number. Also,

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Speaker 1: she was drug addict. She did have every Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: the overdose was so bad that Cobain was actually in

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Speaker 1: a coma. And I can't tell from the reporting on

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Speaker 1: this if he was in a coma for five days

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Speaker 1: or he was just actually in the hospital for five days.

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Speaker 1: I also can't tell if he was actually in a

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Speaker 1: coma or he was just unconscious. But that's he was

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Speaker 1: definitely in the hospital for five days. No matter what

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Speaker 1: was happening in the hospital, he was there. You'll hear

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Speaker 1: this referred to as Cobain's first suicide attempt. But it's

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Speaker 1: really important to delineate here that no one at the time,

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Speaker 1: doctors included, thought that it was a suicide attempt. Everybody

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Speaker 1: classified it as a totally accidental overdose, and nobody thought

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Speaker 1: it was a suicide attempt. That wasn't until it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until Cobain died that it started being referred to as

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Speaker 1: a suicide attempt. That's important. Yeah. There's also some speculation

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Speaker 1: that the reason that Cobain had so many Rufe's in

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Speaker 1: a system is that Love put a bunch of pills

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Speaker 1: in his champagne and so he was unknowingly drinking Rufe's

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Speaker 1: as well as taking Rufie's. I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: believe that or not, especially since I don't know how

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Speaker 1: much he had in his body. I was going to

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Speaker 1: say she wanted to kill him, then why would she

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Speaker 1: Why would she rush him to the hospital? Exactly? Exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's my big my other big thing with saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: she was trying to kill him, that was her first try.

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Speaker 1: It was like no, because she would not have called

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Speaker 1: an ambulance. She would have to she would have waited, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then she could have come to and been like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I woke up at nine o'clock this

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Speaker 1: morning and he was dead. Exactly. Anyway, I don't believe

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Speaker 1: that this was a murder or suicide attempt. I believe

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Speaker 1: it was totally just an accidental overs but um, that's

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Speaker 1: just my opinion. Man. Comain and Love returned to Seattle

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Speaker 1: after he spent five days in the hospital in Rome,

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Speaker 1: which I'm just now realizing I never said, is where

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Speaker 1: they lived. They lived in Seattle, Washington. It was a

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Speaker 1: nice little house. Yeah, it wasn't little, No, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean actually little that was actually for

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Speaker 1: as wealthy as it were, though, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: actually more modest than a lot of rock stars would

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Speaker 1: live in, and you know, but still a pretty big house.

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Speaker 1: Seattle is not known for, unlike places like l A,

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Speaker 1: for having that many huge, lavish homes at that time.

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Speaker 1: Now that's stuff, says case now. But at that time

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Speaker 1: they weren't as many giants sprawling gold encrusted homes. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: On March eighth, Love called the police, claiming that Cobain

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Speaker 1: was suicidal and had locked himself in a room with

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Speaker 1: a gun. The police came, They confiscated the guns and

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Speaker 1: some pills um. But when they asked Cobain why he

337
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 1: was behaving that way, he said he wasn't suicidal at all,

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Speaker 1: but he was hiding from um Courtney. I guess it's

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Speaker 1: actually in the literal police report. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you guys saw that posted, but it literally says that

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Speaker 1: in the police report that he was scared of Courtney

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Speaker 1: and he was hiding from her with a gun in

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Speaker 1: the room. I have heard the stuff that has come

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Speaker 1: out of that woman's mouth before, and I would have

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Speaker 1: hid in the bathroom too, because she's a little cuckoo

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Speaker 1: for cocoa puffs. At time, it was a little cuckoo

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Speaker 1: for cocoa puffs two. And sometimes there are some recordings

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Speaker 1: of him threatening Oh yeah, no, no, no, I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying that he was stable. Yeah, I'm saying she is

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Speaker 1: definitely unindely unstable. Yeah. So again you'll hear that also

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Speaker 1: referred to as a suicide attempt. Obviously it was not

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Speaker 1: given that the police report proves that it was not,

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Speaker 1: or I mean, at the very least that he was

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Speaker 1: aware enough to say, no, it's not. I don't really know. Again,

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Speaker 1: I don't think he was trying to kill himself at

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Speaker 1: that moment either. But there you go on March Love

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Speaker 1: stage and intervention with ten of Cobain's friends and some

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Speaker 1: record executives, which I think is pretty funny. We did

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Speaker 1: and mentioned that he was a heroin addict, right, Probably not,

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Speaker 1: I haven't actually mentioned right. Thank you for pointing that out.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those instances where you get so

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Speaker 1: caught up in the case you forget to say things

363
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 1: that seem really obvious to you, totally important. Both Courtney

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Speaker 1: and Kurt were really really heavy heroin users throughout the

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Speaker 1: entire duration of their relationship and prior to I think

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Speaker 1: it was Courtney said it was drugs that brought them together.

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Speaker 1: I think major shared in. Yeah. So yeah, he was

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Speaker 1: a heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy heroin users. So was she.

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Speaker 1: They both used a lot of drives. They and in fact,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff out there talking about how

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Speaker 1: Cobain embraced his identity as a drug addict. That was

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Speaker 1: attractive to him that he was doing drugs, So take

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Speaker 1: that as you will. For those of you familiar with

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Speaker 1: the case, Dylan Carlson was at the intervention. I am

375
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Speaker 1: consciously omitting a lot of stuff that you will see

376
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Speaker 1: about Dylan around on the internet about this case because

377
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Speaker 1: I just think that they're not even a little suspicious

378
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,679
Speaker 1: the way he was acting and I think that it

379
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: adds a lot of fluff to the case to discuss

380
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Speaker 1: Dylan as some nefarious character. I don't think that nefarious.

381
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Speaker 1: And by the way, just for those of you who

382
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 1: aren't aware of the case, Dylan Carlson was a childhood

383
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 1: friend of Kurt Cobain's. They were they were best friends,

384
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Speaker 1: and also they did drudge together. I and I was

385
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Speaker 1: going to say that's that is the only reason I'm

386
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: not opposed to not bringing him up every ten seconds

387
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: like some of the places that you'll read about this

388
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 1: story does, is because he was also a junkie and

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00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: his behavior is very very um typical, the things that

390
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: he says in the way that he acts. So it's

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Speaker 1: there's I can't see putting a lot of faith into

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Speaker 1: the guy. Yeah, I don't think it's suspicious. If you

393
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 1: want to know what we're kind of talking about again,

394
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 1: we're kind of talking about Soaked in Bleach and the

395
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 1: way that they portray Dylan Carlson as well as Tom

396
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: grant Um, the way he portrays Dylan as kind of

397
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 1: a seat nefarious guy in this whole thing. So I'm

398
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 1: not going to bring him up every ten seconds like

399
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people do when they talk about this case,

400
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to bring that up. Now. I'll

401
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: bring him up when it's important, like again in a

402
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: couple of minutes, but it's not important. Okay. So after

403
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: a rough start, likely Cobain laughing in Courtney's face, right,

404
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: because I can't imagine that she was sober during this

405
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: whole thing, saying you need to go to rehab, and

406
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to go with you, but I'm not going

407
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: to do the impatient thing. I'm going to stay in

408
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: a hotel and you go being that other Obviously she wasn't. Yeah, yeah,

409
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: that it was her idea, right, it was her idea

410
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: for the intervention. Um And after a rough start, as

411
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: I said, they eventually did convince Cobain that he should

412
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Speaker 1: go to rehab. Yeah, and you know responsibilities, Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

413
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: But what I want to know is why did they

414
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: have to go all the way to l A for rehab.

415
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: I think it's probably one of the best. It's probably

416
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: also caters to celebrities. I was gonna say, it's their status.

417
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: Is most likely you don't go to the methodone clinic

418
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: down the street, yeah, or Method one as the case maybe,

419
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: Uh sorry, joking. Okay, So Love and Cobain agreed to

420
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: go to this one in l A right, And as

421
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: I vaguely mentioned, Cobain was going to stay. It was

422
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: a facility you were supposed to stay in. It was

423
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,239
Speaker 1: supposed to be an impatient detox, which makes sense for

424
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: heavy drug users, you would want to monitor literally everything. Yeah,

425
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: but apparently um Courtney was staying in a hotel, maybe

426
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: even with her drug dealer at the for her treat

427
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,719
Speaker 1: quote unquote treatment any she never seemed to take She

428
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 1: didn't seem cleaning seriously. I mean, she did eventually clean up,

429
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: and she's fallen off the wagon quite a few times,

430
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: some of them very famously, But this is one of

431
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: those times where I don't think she was taking it seriously.

432
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: I would agree with that these days that you know,

433
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: you guys are probably noticed that she's really trying to

434
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: clean up her image. Also, her whole style is she's

435
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: trying very hard. Yeah, but unfortunately she's not always gone

436
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: about it so well. Did you see that roast she

437
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: was on a couple of years ago. Oh, she was

438
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: on some celebrity roast and she's like, I am so

439
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: clean and I haven't done anything it's so look and

440
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: it is so obvious that she is blasted. And like

441
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: a week and a half later she went into another

442
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: program because the entire internet was like, you're yeah, yeah, So,

443
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,719
Speaker 1: I mean she's trying, she's not always succeeding well. And

444
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: here's what I'll say. When I was doing research from this,

445
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about some of the experts or people

446
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: I talked to um when we start talking about theories.

447
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: But I did talk to some people who are ex

448
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: addicts who are listeners of our show, and they said,

449
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: you know, by and large, opiate addiction, heroin addiction is

450
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: the hardest thing to kick. It's the thing you missed

451
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: the most. That high is just like it's almost impossible

452
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: to kick for your entire life. And if you're around

453
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 1: people who are doing it, you're probably going to start

454
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: doing anything. I said, She's surrounded by the wrong people, right, Yeah,

455
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: whether that's intentional or not. Yeah, So she didn't really

456
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: take this whole detox thing seriously. It sounds like us

457
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: neither did Kurt Yeah. Uh. And reports say that the

458
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: facility in l A had quote no knowledge of his

459
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 1: history of depression or previous suicide attempts. Unquote, which is

460
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: money again because as far as I can tell, uh,

461
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: he didn't have any suicide attempts um, but maybe he did.

462
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. You did have some history of depression, yeah,

463
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: but I mean we had some medical is that that

464
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: kind of drug him down and gave me an excuse

465
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 1: for a lot of things. Yeah, although there's some some discussion, Yeah,

466
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: there's some speculation there, but I mean, like, really, who

467
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: doesn't have us history of depression? You know, who doesn't

468
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: have who doesn't feel depressed when they're a teenager? You know?

469
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: And it's not as though Kurt was that much. I mean,

470
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: he was twenty seven. But if you're living in a

471
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: world where you're making music about feeling angry and mad

472
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: and sad and doing a lot of drugs, that's probably

473
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: just going to continue. On March this is five days

474
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: after the intervention. Yes, Cobain goes with Dylan Carlson to

475
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: buy a shotgun before leaving for rehab. You'll remember that

476
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: the police confiscated all of his guns, all Cobain's guns.

477
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: There's some sort of restraining order because I get the

478
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: impression that dyl and Carlson bought the gun for him.

479
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: He did he wasn't under a straining order. He told

480
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: Dylan that he didn't want to buy a gun because

481
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: he thought the police would find out and confiscate that

482
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: one too, given that it was registered under his name,

483
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: after they just seized all of his weapons. Yeah, so

484
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: he asked Dylan to buy it for him because he

485
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: actually he thought that's It's unclear. Reports are either that

486
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: he thought somebody was like breaking into his house or

487
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: that um a decision that he was about to make,

488
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: which I'll tell you about a second. He thought that

489
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: people would be really angry and come attack him because

490
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: he was going to cost people a lot of money retaliation, retaliation.

491
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: And I understand this is a twenty gage shotgun. Twenty

492
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: gets shotgun with a barrel break at the end, semato,

493
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: but semiauto is important. That was a funny thing too,

494
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: he apparently I heard it. He said that he bought

495
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: a twenty gauge because he thought he could shoot somebody

496
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: with a twenty gage that wouldn't kill them, you know,

497
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: as opposed to a twelve games. Well, and that's dude,

498
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: but isn't I thought I read somewhere that and you

499
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: can correct me if I'm wrong, because I maybe that

500
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: twenty gauges are popular for home protection because they won't

501
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: go through a wall. Well, you can shoot somebody and

502
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: it won't go through a wall and hit somebody through

503
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: a wall. Well, it depends on what kind of load

504
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: you got, anything slug in and it might punch its

505
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: way through a wall. Chat Now, yeah, that's why people,

506
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: you know, for home defense use smaller pellets that won't

507
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: go to a wall. Right, So that was my understanding

508
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: was that it was optimal. You know, likely they went

509
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: into the gun store and they said, what are you

510
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: looking for? He said, well, I'm looking to defend my home,

511
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: and they said, oh, this is an excellent option for that. Definitely,

512
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, it's even better than than bird pellet. Just

513
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: use rock salt that doesn't kill anybody and it's hurts

514
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: like hell. Yeah, that's but they don't. You got to

515
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: make your own. Yeah, that's the one problem with it. Yeah.

516
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: I wonder it would be like to be shot with.

517
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: I don't want to know. I have I have been

518
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: told that it is extremely painful. I don't want to

519
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: ever find out. So Dylan bought him, bought Cobain this gun.

520
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: I mentioned briefly that he thought maybe there would be

521
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: some retaliation. It's because apparently Cobain had decided that Nirvana

522
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: was not going to play Lollapaluza. Lollapaluza, which we'll talk

523
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: about in a little bit. Lollapaluza is a huge music, yeah,

524
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: and it was happening in Washington that year, and they

525
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: were going to make nine point two million dollars four

526
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: that it sounds like he not only didn't want to

527
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: play Lollapaluza, but in fact wanted to disband Nirvana and

528
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: quit the music business entirely. So he seemed to be

529
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: a bit nervous about that. He was scared of retaliation.

530
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: And so those are the two reasons that are given

531
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: as to why he felt like he needed a gun.

532
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: But either way, he took the gun back to his

533
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: house in Seattle. He left it there, and then he

534
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: got on a plane to l A and checked into

535
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: the Detox facility down in l A. Exodus, Yeah, Exodus

536
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: Dtox facility. Uh. He spent the day apparently talking to

537
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: counselors about his drug use, his life in general. He

538
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: played with Francis, his daughter. She was not now um.

539
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: She came to visit him and I think with the nanny,

540
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: and I believe that then they had a new nanny

541
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: down in l A. Because they did have this one

542
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: living nanny named Callie. He was still in Seattle. Yeah,

543
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: and they had apparently just they had had a nanny

544
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: leave them like a month before they really did. But

545
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: I think that this nanny's name was Elizabeth. That's my

546
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: guests given some other stuff. But I can't actually corroborate that,

547
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: So sorry guys if I'm wrong. Also, of note, none

548
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: of the counselors seemed concerned that he was a risk

549
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: for self harm or anything like that, which seems like

550
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: the sort of thing you might be to tell if

551
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: somebody was really suicidal. Uh, would at picking that up

552
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: pretty quick? Yeah, its like it. But maybe I'm just ignorant.

553
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: But you're not getting their fix a heroine and then

554
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: all that and then their their their life probably sucks. Yeah,

555
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: so he might have seemed depressed. He didn't. Probably most

556
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: of the guys that bring in there and we're kind

557
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: of down, well it didn't meet him on one of

558
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: their worst days. Yeah, I didn't actually seem like it

559
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: seemed like he was Okay, I mean, obviously he was

560
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: suffering from heroin withdrawal because you know, and that it

561
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: was since he was a huge addict, that was that

562
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: was a big deal. Obviously it wasn't going to be

563
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: bid for him. But it sounds like the counselors thought

564
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: he was dealing with it pretty well all things considered.

565
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: I mean, he was playing with his daughter and stuff.

566
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: He wasn't like he hadn't self confined himself to his

567
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: room or anything like that. It's he seemed to be

568
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: out kind of doing this whole stuff. Here's a question. Yeah,

569
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to this, and I don't

570
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: know that I've ever read it anywhere. So five days

571
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: prior to this, the intervention takes place, five or six days, Uh,

572
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: do we know? Was he still using prior to arriving

573
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: at the facility? I would, you know, I would guess

574
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: that he probably shot up like right before he got

575
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: on the Okay, I'm in the same boat here thinking

576
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: that's probably the situation. But I've never seen anything, so

577
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: I guess that's possible. I think I see where you're

578
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: going with this. I guess it's possible that he was

579
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: still high. I mean that he wasn't actually suffering from

580
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: withdrawal yet, right, Yeah, so yes, that's possible. Yeah, but

581
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: I mean he's still you. You would think that people

582
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: who are trained professionals in talking to people like counselors

583
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: would at least have an inkling like, oh, yeah, he

584
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: did seem a little upset. Yeah, I don't know, call

585
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: me crazy. I have I know constantly. April one, UM

586
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: reports are that thirteen calls are made from Love's hotel

587
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: room to the facility that Cobain was in. It's my

588
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: understanding that he didn't actually speak to her. It was

589
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: to the like public phone basically, yeah, the pay phone

590
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: that was available for all of the patients. They didn't

591
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: actually speak. He may have spoke to her once, but

592
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: that would be it. Um. And I'm unclear if he

593
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: actually spoke to her once or if they're referring to

594
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: the fact that he called the hotel and left a

595
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: message for her. The message he left was, um, he

596
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: left it with the front counter, the front counter. Yeah,

597
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: the front counter, front desk, thank you. I don't know

598
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: why it was the counter. She was staying at a

599
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: convenience story. Yeah, so at the front desk, and he said, um,

600
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's phone number is this is sorry, there would be

601
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: a phone number there where this was. He gave her

602
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: the phone number. Yeah, and he said it was Elizabeth's

603
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: phone number, so that I think it's the nanny, but

604
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: I I don't. I don't know. Nobody ever says who

605
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,919
Speaker 1: Elizabeth happens to be. I'm just assuming it's the nanny. Yeah, yeah,

606
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: we don't care. Yeah. Sometime during the first Kurt jokes

607
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 1: that it would be a really really dumb thing to

608
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: try to jump that six ft wall back in the

609
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: back of the facility, and then he does that jump

610
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: the ball in the back. Uh, he was out for

611
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: a cigarette break and just jumped the wall. He caught

612
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: a cab, went to l a X and gets on

613
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: a flight to Seattle back home. That's funny. They didn't

614
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: confiscate his credit cards or anything. Huh, yeah they didn't.

615
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: But this was not a forced facility. Was a self volunteer,

616
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: which is why I find it's so weird that he

617
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: took the time to jump the wall. If they're letting

618
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: me hang onto your wallet and your smokes and all

619
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: of that, then why wouldn't you just say I'm gonna go.

620
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: I got my My guests would be that he was

621
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: trying to hide it from people. I presume that if

622
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: you check yourself out of rehab, they're probably going to

623
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: call some people and say, hey, just you know, Kurt

624
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: checked himself out, and then those people are going to

625
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: call the airport and maybe like run over the airport

626
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: and steps before you can get on that plane. And

627
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: so it's more hassle free if you slip off of

628
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: the back wall instead of telling everybody about and telling

629
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a theory. It's not a very

630
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: good theory, but it's theory. I've only been rehab a

631
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: few times since. It just so happens that Kurt is

632
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: sitting next to Duff mccagan, who you may know as

633
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: the basis for Guns and Roses. Cobain and Axl Rose

634
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: of Guns and Roses apparently had like a pretty big

635
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: beef involving Courtney Love. Surprising no one didn't actually have

636
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: a beef with everybody kind of yeah, there's like twelve

637
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: of them or something, Yeah, okay, yeah. Mccagan apparently reported

638
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: that Cobain seemed really happy to see him. He later

639
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: remarked that from quote all my instincts that something was

640
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: wrong unquote, one of the things. I How did you

641
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: know they didn't really know each other that well? Um,

642
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, their bands weren't they didn't interact

643
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: that much. And you know, the other thing I really

644
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: struggle with on this one is McKay mccagan was interviewed

645
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: for a book in two thousand one. So that's one

646
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: of those things later, really many years later, and you

647
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: look back and you see one thing tiny a little

648
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: bit wrong and you think, oh, I should have known.

649
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's hard to tell if he

650
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: actually felt that way at that time. And I'm not

651
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: saying that he was like intentionally lying about that. I

652
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: just mean that you do that, like every human does that.

653
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 1: You go back and here reinterpret things their memories unintentionally

654
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: all the time. April twod and third, Cobain is quote

655
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: spotted unquote around Seattle a number of times. I don't

656
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: know what that means. It's literally never elaborated on. It's

657
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: just like when spotted, somebody saw him and they got

658
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: blurry footage. Yeah, and that's it. Yeah. On April three,

659
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: Love hired Tom Grant to quote unquote find Cobain. Who knows.

660
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if she knew where he was or

661
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: anything like that. That's a big question mark in this

662
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: whole case, but she hired him anyway. On April four,

663
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: a police report is filed with Seattle Police by Air

664
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 1: quotes Cobain's mother, unquote, stating that he was missing in

665
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: suicidal in actuality. Um Tom Grant does have recordings of

666
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: Love admitting that she actually filed the report and said

667
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: it was that she was Cobain's mom because I don't know,

668
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: she thought that people would pay more attention to it.

669
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: I don't really know, question mark why she did that,

670
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: but she did. On April seven, Nirvana officially pulls out

671
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: of Wallapalooza. As I said, they were slated to make

672
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 1: a bullload of money. I'm sorry I had the wrong number.

673
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: It's nine point five not nine point two million dollars.

674
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: It's a lot of money. I'll take the change. Yeah,

675
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: me too. Um Love claims that Whole had actually originally

676
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 1: been offered that spot, but turned it down so that

677
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: Cobain could perform. It sounds like bunked to me. Um.

678
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there would be a way to look

679
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 1: that up to corroborate it, but frankly, I don't care enough.

680
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: I don't think it matters enough to this case. Um,

681
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 1: so I didn't really waste any time on doing that.

682
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: If you happen to know off the top of your head,

683
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: please send us an email and I will re record

684
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: this entire episode for exactly probably not sorry for the change,

685
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: we will. Yeah, the point three millions, for the point

686
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: three million. Yeah, for the third of a million dollars. Yeah. Absolutely.

687
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: On April eight, an electrician named Gary Smith maybe that

688
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: might not actually be his real name, was dispatched to

689
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: the house to install so that to sorry, to Cobain

690
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 1: and Love's house in Seattle, to install a security system.

691
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: And here's the question I never see asked is why

692
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: I had the very same question. Why, yeah, you know,

693
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: did somebody call in the order for installation a couple

694
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: of weeks prior, like did Cobain call before he left

695
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 1: for rehab, expecting it to be done when he came back,

696
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: Or did somebody call them on April eight or April

697
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: seventh and say, hey, I need a thing installed, can

698
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: you come do that? Actually, you know what I have.

699
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: I'll bet you somebody did this well in advance. I

700
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: was just thinking about the fact that you two know this.

701
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,479
Speaker 1: I recently had some electrical work done at my house

702
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: and it was several weeks out, and this is in

703
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: the tiny section of town, and my my local electricians

704
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: still was weeks away. So I'm certainly, as you're talking about, like, oh,

705
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: you know what, it's certainly since they're like, okay, we'll

706
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 1: be there on the eighth, it's definitely possible that you know,

707
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: he that Cobaine, you know, apparently reportedly he was worried

708
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: about his safety and his home that he called as

709
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: soon as he started being worried about safety and his

710
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: home and said, actually, yes, I would like a security

711
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: system installed. The actually right about when the police confiscated

712
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,479
Speaker 1: all of those guns, could have been Calie that called

713
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 1: to It could have been anybody that made the call

714
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: requesting the service. But again it's kind of one of

715
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: those like why aren't people asking that question? Well, the

716
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: question in my mind and is, um, why this guy

717
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: shows up without calling a head first to make sure

718
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: there's gonna be somebody there with keys to let him

719
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: into places and stuff like that. He just shows up. Yeah,

720
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 1: you know that was a little strange. Yeah, of course,

721
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: maybe maybe the appointment he assume there was going to

722
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: be somebody there. He gets there, there's nobody there, but

723
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: he starts, you know, nosing around. Maybe he was well,

724
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe he was knocking on the door or

725
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 1: to see if there's somebody home. The worst case scenario,

726
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 1: you show up, nobody's there, you spend five minutes there,

727
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: and electricians buill by the hour. So I just build

728
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: an hour where it's work. It's hard. I mean again,

729
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: it's the other question I guess is like, why was

730
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: he poking around this greenhouse area? They might have gone

731
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: to the house first and got no response, and then

732
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: and then he goes the spots what looks it looks

733
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: like a mother in law apartment over the garage, and thanks,

734
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 1: I'll go up there and have a look sae, Yeah

735
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: we should probably Yeah. So anyway, uh, Smith walks around

736
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: what they called the greenhouse, which is it does look

737
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: kind of like a mother in law apartment above the garage,

738
00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: which is separate from the house. Yeah, there's a wall. No,

739
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: I think there's a door from the house into the

740
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: greenhouse from a defunct room. I don't know that it

741
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: matters very much, but it's a separate building from the house. Basically,

742
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: he looks through a window because it is a greenhouse,

743
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: so it's all windows, looks through a window, doors because no,

744
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it looks like a greenhouse because it's painted green.

745
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: On the outside. There's windows, there's lots of skylights. But

746
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: don't call it a greenhouse because it's not actually a greenhouse.

747
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: It's it's part of the garage that happens to have

748
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,959
Speaker 1: a ton of windows in it. Okay, that's fair. Yeah,

749
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 1: I mean it's an apartment for for lack of a

750
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: better turn, kind of yeah, it's just one big room though,

751
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: So anyway, it doesn't really matter either way. It's this.

752
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 1: They call it the greenhouse, so I'm going to keep

753
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: calling it a green which is fine. I just want

754
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: to make sure that we understand it's not an actual

755
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: greenhouse sitting on top of their garage. So he sees

756
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: a body lying in the greenhouse with a small amount

757
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: of blood near him. This is how he describes it.

758
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: He apparently initially thought that Cobain was asleep. Um, but

759
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: he saw the gun shot and like a little bit

760
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: of blood or not the gun shot, the shotgun, um,

761
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: and a little bit of blood. So he called his boss, understandable,

762
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: and his boss called the radio station. I don't know

763
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: if that's true either. Either way, the cops did get

764
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: called and they came out. The police, they came out. Um,

765
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: they arrived, they found that the door was locked. The

766
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: door to the greenhouse was locked. So they broke one

767
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: of the It was you know, like French doors because

768
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: all paneled class. So they broke one of the windows

769
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: next to the knob and unlocked it. It was one

770
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: of those knob locks that you just twist the little

771
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 1: lock on the knob. There was no bolt or anything.

772
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: So if you commit murder, you yeah, And that is

773
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: another important, another important key to this whole thing is

774
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: in fact, the door was that way and there you

775
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: will also see that there was a stool, you know,

776
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: wedged up against the door. But that's also not true.

777
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: There's a stool sitting kind of in front of a door,

778
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: a door, not this door, a different door into the room.

779
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: So again important little details. The officer that responded also

780
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: showed up with a paramedic, because of course you would,

781
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: and they reported a relatively small amount of blood. But

782
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: the paramedic did say that it was clear that Cobain

783
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 1: was dead, so they didn't try to do any kind

784
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: of resuscitation or anything like that. Well, the guys shot

785
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: half of his face off of the show. It sounds like,

786
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: although I don't know that is true. I mean, I've

787
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: never seen a Corners report and I've never seen any pictures,

788
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: so I don't know for that half of his face

789
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 1: was missing, but yeah, it sounds like he was missing.

790
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: Probably didn't look so good because I know the Seattle

791
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: PD still won't release any of those photographs, specifically because

792
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: they don't think that anybody should see it. Um Cobain's

793
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: wallet was sitting next to him, and the officer pulled

794
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: his ID out to identify him and they took a picture.

795
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: So that's another clue is they said they couldn't identify

796
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: him they had to use his fingerprints to officially identify him,

797
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: but they used his I D when they took a

798
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: picture of the body to identify who the body was.

799
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: His coat was on his left side, a brown paper

800
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: bag with shotgun shells was by his left foot, a

801
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: cigar box with all of his hair, heroin paraphernalia, and

802
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: his wallet were on his right side, kind of a

803
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 1: little further away from him, not just like right next

804
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: to the body, and there were cigarette butts on the

805
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: right side kind of above his head, a root beer

806
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: can on his left side by his head, and then

807
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: in the dirt on his left side was a note

808
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: stuck in the dirt with the red pin that the

809
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 1: dirt and the flower in the dirt in a flower.

810
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: It's a flower bed, little flower bed, next little box. Yeah,

811
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: so presumably with the pen that he had written the

812
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: note in was stuck in the dirt through the paper

813
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,439
Speaker 1: in the dirt. We're gonna talk about details in a minute,

814
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: but I want to finish the timeline in five hours.

815
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: For some reason, despite all odds, the police declared his

816
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: death and undeniable suicide at the scene and released Cobain's

817
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 1: body to Love like within a couple of days. Um

818
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: she had him cremated shortly afterwards. On April tenth, there

819
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: was a public memorial that was held for Cobain, which

820
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: featured Courtney Love reading Cobain's suicide note. So she read

821
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: the entire thing. Apparently she arrived later and gave away

822
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 1: some of Cobain's clothes. So there's a really quick overview

823
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: of the timeline of this whole thing. And I guess

824
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: we have a few more things to talk about before

825
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: we talk about theories. I'm so sorry. You guys say

826
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: you like long episodes, so you know, if you don't

827
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: like the long episode, just put us on pause and

828
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: come back tomorrow. Did you pause it? Welcome back. We're serialized,

829
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: so bullet points. While people close to Cobain differ greatly

830
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: in opinion on whether it was a suicide or not,

831
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: I do think they agree. He was unhappy with his life.

832
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: You can tell. You can tell that from a suicide note,

833
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: that he's there's a lot of self loathing in there. Yeah,

834
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about the suicide note in a minute.

835
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: But he was happier once he had some health issues resolved,

836
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: and with the birth of his daughter, he seemed to

837
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: really really love her. But in general, let's agreed that

838
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: Cobain was not happy with being part of a huge

839
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 1: band like Nirvana, did not want fame. He wanted to

840
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: just kind of be able to create. There's actually a

841
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: quote from Courtney. After they got married, he canceled a

842
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: couple of tours and she said all he wanted to

843
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: do was do drugs and like paint, Like that's all

844
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: he wanted to do. And that sounds very true. To me,

845
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 1: in the interviews I've seen with Cobain, he just seemed

846
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: like he was a guy who just wanted to create,

847
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: and he like hated, for instance, hated smells like teen Spirit,

848
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 1: hated it. Weved it. Yeah, but of course he had

849
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: to do it, and they had to do it every

850
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: single performance because it was one of the biggest hits.

851
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 1: And it sounds to me like there could be worst

852
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: problems to have. He could have had to sing Freebird

853
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: at every concert. That's true, he could have. Luckily he

854
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 1: didn't write free Bird, so luckily. Yeah. In that the

855
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: other documentary, one of the other many documentaries, but the

856
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: other big one, um Curt and Courtney, Kurt's aunt, who

857
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: I frankly find to be one of the most credible

858
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,760
Speaker 1: character witnesses of this whole entire thing. Yeah, she says

859
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: that she has no doubt that he just hated the

860
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: world that he was living in. She thought that, um,

861
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: he felt it was really fake and he hated it.

862
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: I actually I attribute her his his aunt's statements to its.

863
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: Nicholas Brufield is at the documentary that guy I recognized

864
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: as soon as I started watching it, recognized the style.

865
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: He's got a very distinct style, and I watched his

866
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,399
Speaker 1: other stuff before. Yeah, you have actually for this show

867
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: even Yeah, but he has a really good way of

868
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: interviewing people, and he tends to draw out a lot

869
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: of little bits of information that nobody else does. I mean,

870
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: everybody's after the big, glamorous interview, and he's like, I'll

871
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: talk to anybody, and it usually is for the better

872
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: for him because he gets information that most people wouldn't.

873
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: So I personally I attribute all of her information to

874
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 1: his absolutely, Yeah, because you never hear about her anywhere,

875
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: so you don't and I think, I mean, you hear

876
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 1: about his cousin, who I think is full of crap um,

877
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 1: and you hear about his parents a little bit but

878
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: not very much. But his aunt they seem to be

879
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: very close, and um, I really think that she has

880
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: the most insight to what Cobain was really like. So

881
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 1: there's that Nirvana was probably breaking up either way, because

882
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: it sounded like court really Kurt, Kurt really didn't want

883
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: to do stay anymore. He was done too. Yeah. Almost

884
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: everyone close to this case says that they are scared

885
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: of Courtney Love, which is fair. She's scary. Uh. It

886
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: sounds like Kurt Cobain and Courtney of we're probably getting

887
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: a divorce and love was probably being written out of

888
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: Cobaine's will. I obviously there's no way to corroborate that,

889
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:14,399
Speaker 1: but it sounds like statements from Rosemary Carroll who's who again.

890
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: She won't go on record to say this, but Tom

891
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 1: Grant does have recordings of her saying this, So it

892
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: sounds like love was being written out of Cobaine's will.

893
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: I've seen reports that Cobaine's credit card was being used

894
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: after his death or they were missing, and I don't

895
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to find this information from anywhere

896
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 1: but Tom Grant, so take it with a grain of salt.

897
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: It also appears that Courtney canceled all of Cobaine's cards,

898
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: believing that it would cut him off and cause him

899
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 1: to contact her again. That's all from Tom Grant. I

900
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 1: don't know. There's no other way to corroborate it as that.

901
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,399
Speaker 1: That's not necessarily from Tom Grant as much as that's

902
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 1: from Courtney Love. Yeah, she's the one who said that

903
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: she did it. Yeah, she said that she canceled them.

904
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 1: I don't whether she did or didn't. Yeah, So I

905
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 1: don't know again there's I can't corroborate it, but I

906
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: thought i'd mention it. And then um, we talked about

907
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: Callie a little bit. He was the only person that

908
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: I was gonna he was apparently actually living in the

909
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: house in Washington in Seattle, uh, the entire time, basically

910
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: as a caretaker, living roommates. Yeah, but like Kurt was

911
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: dead in the house for like three days, four days

912
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 1: before his body was discovered. So no, not in the

913
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: main house, that's true, But he had to have been

914
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: at the house at some point. Well, and Kelly's got

915
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: on record of saying that he saw Yeah, but he

916
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 1: showed up one so I think yeah, he said he

917
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: came to visit um Callie and his girlfriend in bed.

918
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: So there you go. Okay, awkward, We're you know, an

919
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:53,240
Speaker 1: hour in and done with the overview. You're welcome, Thanks,

920
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 1: You're welcome. So theories were there finally after ten hours.

921
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 1: It's gonna keep getting longer, and I will just think,

922
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: once again, remind people that we're doing ever of the

923
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: case because there's so much, there's so many theories, there's

924
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: so much information here. I like, literally can't I don't

925
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: have the physical capability my voice is already starting to go. Okay.

926
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 1: So let's basically there's two theories, right, because this is

927
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: a Devin episode. Um, the two theories are he was

928
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: murdered or it was suicide. Well, actually, it could have

929
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 1: been an accident to maybe he just bought a shotgun

930
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: and he was and he tripped and fell backwards with it.

931
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,879
Speaker 1: Now he was actually I think he was standing there

932
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: like like looking down the barrel just to see if

933
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: there are any obstructions in or anything like. I don't

934
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,919
Speaker 1: think that happens. Alright, So let's talk about murder first.

935
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: We can do that. Um, we're just gonna bullet point

936
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 1: real quick here. Some of the things that people bring up,

937
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 1: why do people think it's murder? Uh? One of the

938
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: questions people ask is why would a rich man kill himself? Well,

939
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: that's a dumb question. Yeah, it happens, happens a lot often. Yeah. Um,

940
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: the divorce that he would rather kill himself than divorced.

941
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: He actually said that in a note somewhere at some

942
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: point was an interview he said, actually I think he

943
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: said it in a note to Courtney. Nirvana was breaking up, so, um,

944
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: he was keeping people from money. He was scared for

945
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 1: a retaliation, right, So like somebody could have killed him

946
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: because they were okay, because if you're going to kill him,

947
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 1: then you're he's gonna that's fine whatever. Um, there were

948
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 1: no fingerprints on the shells, slash guns, slash pen, slash

949
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: insert thing here. We're going to talk about that. Yeah,

950
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about people say he wasn't quote unquote,

951
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: he wasn't suicidal. There was a lot of heroin in

952
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: his body, along with some other stuff. And people also

953
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: say that the note wasn't a suicide note or it

954
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: was faked. Um. And there's like a handwriting sample thing

955
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about in a minute. So

956
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:58,839
Speaker 1: those are all the reasons people say it was murder.

957
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 1: Next theory, just kidding. We're going to talk about some

958
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: of these things in detail, but not all of them.

959
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 1: So here we go. The gun. We talked about this

960
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 1: a little bit, alright, a little bit. Yeah it is.

961
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: It's the twenty gage shotgun which Dylan bought for Kurt.

962
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 1: The gun was a long barrel gun, but I don't

963
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: think the barrel was so long that Cobain could have

964
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 1: um not reasonably pulled the trigger himself. I think it

965
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: would have he would have been able to totally do that.

966
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 1: It's got to be a really big gun to not

967
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: be able to pull the trigger yourself. Yeah, that doesn't

968
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: concern me. The issue people they have a few issues

969
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: with the gun, and some of them might. Yeah, Okay.

970
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: First of all, the shell casing, the Spence shell casing

971
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,439
Speaker 1: was on the opposite side of Cobain's body from where

972
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 1: it would have ejected from the gun. It was a

973
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: semi auto, so it is reasonably automatically. Yeah, and he

974
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: was holding the gun upside down down, so the ejection

975
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: port would have been on his right, but the casing

976
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: was on his left. Yes, that makes people suspicious. It

977
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: makes people suspicious, I guess I agree. I think it's

978
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: reasonable to say that it could have bounced off his

979
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: arm um, it could have bounced up his arm. It

980
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 1: could have if you'd been holding it like even a

981
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: little bit of an angle. It could have ejected somewhat upwards,

982
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: bounced off. Because that was a fairly skinny little room

983
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 1: that he was in. I don't think it was that skinny.

984
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: According to this the diagram I saw, it didn't look

985
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: that big. It's huge, but it's not. I don't think

986
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,240
Speaker 1: it's big. Couldn't have hit the wall on the opposite

987
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:34,759
Speaker 1: side and bounced back? Joe that I don't think. I

988
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: think that's too far. Well, most things get flung out

989
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: with a lot of forests. They do, but they're also

990
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: super light, and so they burn up their inertia quite quickly.

991
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: I mean, chuck on shells don't fly more than four

992
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: or five feet at best on their own without a

993
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 1: wind fly further than that. Well, but I'm I'm making

994
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: a generality here. What I'm saying is that there's no

995
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: way it could have hit the wall and bounced all

996
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: traveled all the way back from where to where it originated,

997
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: and then continued on. The room is too big for

998
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: that to have happened. I feel the same way. But

999
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: there's other things too that he could have. Maybe he

1000
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: wasn't holding the gun upside down when he actually pulled

1001
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: the trigger, and maybe he was. Maybe he was holding

1002
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 1: it sort of flat against his body and I went

1003
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: up in the air. Maybe he was standing up when

1004
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: he shot himself. He well, I will, I will agree

1005
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: with Joe. So I know that you're going to talk

1006
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: about a little bit of how we know that the

1007
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: gun was upside down. But Joe makes a very good

1008
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: point of if he was standing upright and the gun

1009
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: was not upside down. By upside down, I think we

1010
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: should explain this to folks. That means the trigger is

1011
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: pointing up in the air instead of down at the

1012
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 1: floor like you would normally hold a gun. But if

1013
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: he did have it so it wasn't at a hundred

1014
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: eighty degrees away from where it traditionally would be held,

1015
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: but say only ninety degrees, then the casing would go

1016
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: down to the floor and could ricochet anywhere. Or if

1017
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: he is sitting, if he had done that, it could

1018
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 1: have bounced off. Well, yeah, that's if he's standing, or

1019
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 1: if he's sitting when he uses it, it can ricochet

1020
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 1: off his arm or his leg to end up on

1021
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: the opposite side. So it's completely plausible, is the only

1022
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: thing I'm getting at. But there's a whole bunch of

1023
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: vectors that it could have taken. Yeah, if he had

1024
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: been reaching down, then his arm definitely would have been

1025
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: right in the way of the injection. Yes, yeah, And

1026
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: I guess you know, for me, it's just a question

1027
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: of how fast does that happen? And you know, the

1028
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: gun would have had to have been a slight angle,

1029
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: because if for it to bounce off and then bounce

1030
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: over instead of bounced just right like back at the gun,

1031
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: you know, it wouldn't have ejected exactly right to bounce

1032
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: off his arm then. But I guess I don't. I

1033
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: don't really have a problem with that. It's interesting because

1034
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: people say that this is proof that there was someone

1035
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: else in the room because it had to have bounced

1036
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: off someone else, But I don't think that's true, particularly

1037
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 1: because it means that Cobain he had what's called a

1038
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: death grip on the barrel in layman's terms. In Layman's terms, yeah,

1039
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: and that happens surprisingly just moments after death. Your hand

1040
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: just like freezes up and yeah, basically right at death.

1041
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: So there would have been no time for somebody to

1042
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: stage that. So he was holding the gun and his

1043
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: hand was tight enough on the barrel that it They

1044
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: think that it didn't spin around, that it was the

1045
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: position the gun was found in, was where the position

1046
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: was when Uh probably, Yeah. So I guess the thing

1047
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 1: that I always have problem with is people say, well,

1048
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: it means somebody else was in the room, but well, no,

1049
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: it doesn't. I mean he was holding the barrel in

1050
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 1: his mouth either way. Okay, no, I can play Devil's

1051
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: advocate on that entirely. If somebody else is in the

1052
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 1: room and they are trying to get him in, there's

1053
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 1: some kind of struggle and he grabs the gun and

1054
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 1: other said person somehow accidentally pulls the trigger and it

1055
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: goes off, that just means that his his hand was

1056
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: on the barrel, it's all it means. It doesn't mean

1057
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:04,959
Speaker 1: that there's no way somebody else couldn't have been there.

1058
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: Somebody could have been there. I don't think that. I

1059
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: don't think. I don't think based on everything I've read.

1060
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 1: But I'm just saying it's entirely possible that there could

1061
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: have been a quote unquote struggle for the weapon and

1062
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: it went off while he happened to be holding the barrel,

1063
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 1: and therefore, as this murder theory loves to point out,

1064
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: everything was then stage. Yeah, okay, that's a good point.

1065
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: I guess I hadn't really thought of that, so I

1066
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 1: guess we're gonna get into that. But if they were

1067
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: trying to murder him, then are people also saying that

1068
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: somebody else forced him to take three times as much hair?

1069
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 1: I want as he should have taken Yes, But we

1070
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 1: will get into that in just a second. I want

1071
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: to there is a couple more things about the gun

1072
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 1: that I want to talk about first, and then we're

1073
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: going to talk about drugs, because this is one episode.

1074
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 1: Drugs and guns and stuff like that makes for the

1075
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 1: best parties, it really does. The gun is, I will mention,

1076
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: still in police custody. If you follow this case at all,

1077
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: you will know that just very recently, in fact, the

1078
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 1: Seattle Police Department released pictures of one of their officers

1079
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 1: holding the gun that Kurt Cobain died from a gunshot

1080
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: wound from, and they still have it there. You will

1081
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 1: hear people say, oh yeah, they released it into the

1082
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 1: custody of Courtney Love and she melted it down to

1083
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: the hide evidence. That didn't happen. The police still have it.

1084
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 1: It's still in evidence. Okay, I'm melting it down. Yeah,

1085
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 1: me too. Yeah. Another issue with the gun is reportedly

1086
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: they didn't find fingerprints on the gun or shells, which

1087
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: is it happens, but also it's inaccurate information. What really

1088
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: happened is um the report states. Again, I looked at

1089
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 1: the actual police report and it says that there are

1090
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 1: no prints of quote comparative value, which just means that

1091
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 1: they were all smudge, which makes sense because they would

1092
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: be probably absolutely And the real issue here, though, is

1093
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 1: that the gun wasn't even inspected for Prince until like

1094
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 1: three years after like literally, they didn't submit these fingerprint

1095
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 1: results for analyzation analyzation analysis, thank you, until which is

1096
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: three years after Kirk. That's a failing on the part

1097
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: of the place based on their reasoning of the cause

1098
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 1: of death. Yea, they had this thing about not processing

1099
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:28,479
Speaker 1: anything on suicide. They didn't even develop the film. Yeah, weird, bad,

1100
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 1: bad practices all around. So and we'll talk a little

1101
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 1: bit more about that minute. But that's my issue with fingerprints,

1102
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 1: not that they couldn't find anything, because like of course,

1103
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,439
Speaker 1: like fingerprints are mostly smudgy. It's rare that you find

1104
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 1: a good one. Okay, now we can talk about drug

1105
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 1: you're talking about rugs. So Cobain, it was reported had

1106
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 1: three times the lethal dose of heroin in his body

1107
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 1: when he died, and there's some debate only around this

1108
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 1: case is the only time I've ever seen this debate ever,

1109
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 1: But what the lethal doses? What the well, if there's

1110
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: this ceiling or not for heroin. In this case, it's

1111
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: the only time I've ever seen anybody say, oh yeah, no, no, no,

1112
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: the lethal dose is a lethal dose for heroin. People

1113
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 1: can take only a certain amount before they become incapacitated.

1114
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: Literally every other case I've ever heard with heroin, and

1115
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: when we corroborated this with some experts, there is no

1116
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: ceiling for heroin. You can pretty much keep taking it.

1117
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 1: I mean increasing dose, take increasing doses over time. Obviously, Yeah,

1118
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: you build up a tolerance, and once you have a

1119
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: high enough tolerance, I mean you actually need more to

1120
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 1: feel the same high. And you do develop that tolerance,

1121
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 1: and you will still be totally capable of moving around

1122
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 1: and doing things. Whereof somebody like if I injected that

1123
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 1: amount of heroine it would definitely kill me. But if

1124
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 1: I had been doing heroin for ten years in an

1125
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: increasing in incrementally increasing amount, I would probably you just

1126
01:02:55,720 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: don't ceiling, not any drug. It's specifically that is the case.

1127
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: And actually their interviews where Cobain says that he at

1128
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 1: one point in his life he was doing four dollars

1129
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: worth of heroin a day, which is a lot of heroine.

1130
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: Holy crap, that's from the ahead. I'm sorry, UM, no,

1131
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: as gonna say. Tom Grant, the private investigator, he continually

1132
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: has made the point that he would have been totally

1133
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: incapacitated immediately. He would have Yeah, he would have had

1134
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 1: you know, like no time to you know, check out

1135
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 1: the shotgun. Oh sorry, sorry, sorry, Tom Grant would have

1136
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 1: been stated Cobain. I don't think he would have. He

1137
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 1: he had one point five millgrams per leader of heroin

1138
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 1: was reported to be in his body. Um and I

1139
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 1: actually asked, it's important, though, for everybody to understand he's injecting. Yeah,

1140
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 1: he's injecting its intervited intervenous use, intronous invened. I still

1141
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 1: can't say that word. Um and I actually checked. I

1142
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 1: checked with a fair a couple of our experts, and

1143
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 1: they all agreed. They are all in medical professions, they

1144
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: all have seen cases of heavy heroin use, and they

1145
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 1: all agreed that it's totally reasonable to expect that somebody

1146
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 1: with a high tolerance would be totally capable of moving

1147
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 1: around and doing things with that amount of to heroin

1148
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 1: in their body. And I should also mention that it's

1149
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: not like we're saying, oh and then Cobain got up

1150
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 1: and ran a marathon. We're talking about could he have

1151
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: rolled down his sleeve, put his paraphernale away and pull

1152
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 1: the trigger right, absolutely, like, yeah, you can crawl while

1153
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 1: you're doing that, right, it's small movements. Well, and that

1154
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 1: that would indicate the weirdo writing that is on the

1155
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 1: note that everybody, it would it would also help explain that. Yeah.

1156
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 1: But you'll see in Soaked and Bleached, the team maintains

1157
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 1: that there was a study that was done, quote unquote

1158
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: study that was done where there's a picture of a

1159
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 1: guy who's standing on one leg and you know, doctors say, well,

1160
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: he took um you know, the equivalent of methodone tabs

1161
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 1: that Cobain had in his body, and look at he's

1162
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: standing on one foot. He's totally fine. And the Soaked

1163
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 1: and Bleached team says, but no, he it's methodone, so

1164
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:13,120
Speaker 1: it's less and tags. He took it as a pill.

1165
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: He didn't inject it, so that's not admissible. But I

1166
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: think anecdotal evidence from the health people that we talked

1167
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: to UM who are all named Stephanie, Corey and Lisa Um,

1168
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 1: they all agreed absolutely, yeah, no question. Somebody with that

1169
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: amount of heroin and them body could totally. And that's

1170
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: that's the reason that I was asking earlier though about

1171
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 1: his um if we knew if he had used during

1172
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: that week after the intervention, and then if he had

1173
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: used just before he got to the rehab clinic. And

1174
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,240
Speaker 1: we also don't know if he was using while he

1175
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 1: was in Seattle before he did that confident that you

1176
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,960
Speaker 1: know after April one he was on a bender. I'm

1177
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 1: not disagreeing with that at all, but it does make

1178
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 1: you wonder because it's we've all seen those cases of

1179
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 1: where somebody who did something to access took a certain

1180
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: amount of time off, their tolerance dropped a little bit,

1181
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: and then they went right back to their old ways,

1182
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 1: and that's what put him in the ground. But I

1183
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 1: don't know that. Yeah, I know what you're talking about,

1184
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 1: but I don't know how long you had to be

1185
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: off with where the taller goes away, I don't don't.

1186
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 1: I don't think two days off. Well, that's why I

1187
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 1: was wondering about that. If he had stopped after the

1188
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: intervention forward and so then that would be a week

1189
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 1: week and a half issue, which again I don't think

1190
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: it's a whole lot, but your body does slowly heal

1191
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 1: itself from the damage that you intentionally do to it. Yeah.

1192
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:52,919
Speaker 1: He and he also had valley um in his bloodstream. Yeah,

1193
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 1: and I don't know where he got that Courtney loves prescription.

1194
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,680
Speaker 1: Probably well, I don't remember. Well, but I don't know

1195
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 1: if he got that from the plant, or if he

1196
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 1: got it from his drug dealer or where he got it. Yeah,

1197
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:05,760
Speaker 1: I don't know either, but I think he probably got

1198
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 1: it from the medicine cabinet in the bathroom. Probably probably, yeah, probably. Yeah.

1199
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 1: You know. The other fun fact I guess. But the

1200
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: other interesting fact about him is that if you've noticed,

1201
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:18,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if either of you notice this in

1202
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 1: the photos, he's wearing a Tom Peterson watch. And I

1203
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 1: mean the death Saying photos. Yeah, yeah, it's Tom. You

1204
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 1: know Tom Interloria too. Yeah, he's wearing a Tom Peterson watch.

1205
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 1: For anybody who doesn't know, Tom Peterson had a chain

1206
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 1: of stores in the Pacific Northwest and yeah they well,

1207
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 1: and he tried to get an electronics But it's it's

1208
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 1: his head. He's always showed at these gigantic proportions. It's

1209
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 1: this weird black and white photos style really recognize. But

1210
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: it was he had. When you see him one of

1211
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 1: the photos that they released, he's wearing a Tom Peterson.

1212
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:59,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back and look if you want to

1213
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 1: see Tom Peterson rent drug Store, Cowboy, a couple of movement.

1214
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: And he also was in My Own Private at Oh

1215
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 1: he has got a bit part is I think the

1216
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 1: chief of police. And I don't think he even says

1217
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:14,640
Speaker 1: any words. But have you seen My Own Private It's

1218
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 1: been a million years. Yeah yeah, so's just like the

1219
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 1: length of this episode exactly. But if you watch but

1220
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:21,920
Speaker 1: if you watch My Own Private at home, he plays

1221
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:24,720
Speaker 1: the chief of police. Okay, there you go, all right,

1222
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:29,600
Speaker 1: that's Tom Peterson and Gloria too. The other thing I

1223
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 1: want to talk about is the note, and I really

1224
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it for very long, but um,

1225
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:38,719
Speaker 1: this suicide note was addressed to Cobain's imaginary friend Bata.

1226
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 1: Did you guys watch Kurt and Courtney? Oh yeah, I

1227
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:46,560
Speaker 1: like legitimately cried when his aunt played the recordings of

1228
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:49,680
Speaker 1: him as like a two year old like talking to

1229
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 1: Bata because that's so sad, Like I can't imagine going

1230
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:57,560
Speaker 1: through something like I was. I didn't cry, but it

1231
01:08:57,640 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 1: does make you feel just a twinch of set says

1232
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 1: here this guy that's dead, so just a little kid

1233
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 1: with this whole life, and that I'm talking about Bota,

1234
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 1: his imaginary friend Bota. We're not going to read the letter.

1235
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 1: It's long and it's very easy to find. I just

1236
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: wanted to say that I do agree that the note

1237
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: looks odd, but I think there are a lot of

1238
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 1: ways to explain that. I will agree also that the

1239
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:26,759
Speaker 1: bulk of the note sounds like Cobain was just writing

1240
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 1: to his fans. He used to do that. I don't

1241
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 1: know if either of you guys have ever seen this,

1242
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 1: but he used to write letters to the fan club,

1243
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 1: like literally write handwritten notes and then photocopy them and

1244
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 1: send them to all of the fans of Nirvana. Um.

1245
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 1: And he would do like newsletters. He was running, I mean,

1246
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 1: he was basically running his own fans, yeah, kind of

1247
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: and were not really a zine. It was literally just

1248
01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: like notes. But he called him newsletters, and so that

1249
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 1: was the sort of thing he would do in the beginning,

1250
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 1: and I think he probably didn't do it as much.

1251
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, um frankly, if he did it in

1252
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:01,719
Speaker 1: the in the Middle Times, but to me, the bulk

1253
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 1: of the note, the main body of it, does sound

1254
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:06,600
Speaker 1: like it reads exactly like the way he wrote to

1255
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 1: his fans. It sounds like he is writing to his

1256
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 1: fans saying like listen, Nirvana is no more basically, or

1257
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:15,600
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be in music anymore. Um. And

1258
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 1: then it's true that it's not really until the last

1259
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:20,840
Speaker 1: couple of lines that it sounds like to me a

1260
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:24,680
Speaker 1: suicide note suddenly changes in tone a little bit, definitely does. Yeah,

1261
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:26,800
Speaker 1: it's just like this letter that sounds like he's writing

1262
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 1: to his fans, and then suddenly it's like, I love you,

1263
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:36,719
Speaker 1: keep going, and it's different, slightly different looking handwriting, although

1264
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 1: it still looks like it's his handwriting. But you know,

1265
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:42,599
Speaker 1: I've seen other things that that Cobain wrote and it's

1266
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 1: very similar. You know, see other ones where he's he's

1267
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 1: it's kind of tiny and at the bottom it gets

1268
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 1: real big and that's not enough. That's the heroine kicking in.

1269
01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 1: Or you have no idea, or if it's just larger

1270
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:56,320
Speaker 1: letters for emphasis, Yeah, I don't know. Rosemary Carroll, who

1271
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 1: remembers a lawyer, claims to have found a handwriting Sam

1272
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:02,880
Speaker 1: Ball in a bag that Courtney Love left at her house.

1273
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:06,320
Speaker 1: What's she doing? Written around the bag. She left it

1274
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:08,640
Speaker 1: there for weeks apparently, so she like went through it.

1275
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. Again, it's hard to tell, um, but

1276
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 1: it looked like they could have traced it's a practice sheet.

1277
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:18,120
Speaker 1: It looks like a practice sheet for anybody who doesn't

1278
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 1: know what that is. It's where you copy somebody else's

1279
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 1: letters and then practice writing them to look like it's

1280
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 1: in their hand. Right. But that's a sheet. Is whether

1281
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 1: this is or is not, that's what it's called. So

1282
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 1: that is what he practiced, is Yeah, And I don't

1283
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:36,719
Speaker 1: I've never seen a picture of this alleged practice sheet,

1284
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 1: so I don't know. That's not a picture of it

1285
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:47,160
Speaker 1: somewhere there's okay, I don't know. I can't find it

1286
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:49,360
Speaker 1: online anywhere. It seems like that's the sort of thing

1287
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:53,719
Speaker 1: that you would like post everywhere. Has it though? Yeah?

1288
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:56,280
Speaker 1: But he I don't know if he does actually Okay, Well,

1289
01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:58,640
Speaker 1: I was under the impression that Tom Grant had it,

1290
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 1: And if Tom Grant has is it, there is no way,

1291
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:05,080
Speaker 1: under God's greener he's going to let that thing out

1292
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 1: on the internet, because then he can't be you know,

1293
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:11,720
Speaker 1: that's this is his cash. Yeah, that's yeah, that's true.

1294
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 1: But as far as if Courtney was learning to imitate

1295
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:18,559
Speaker 1: his writing, that could have been for other reasons other

1296
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 1: than forging a suicide. Now, but she forged some stuff

1297
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 1: in his name before. Yeah, exactly, So yeah, that'sn't necessary. No,

1298
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 1: I agree with um. And then I do want to

1299
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 1: point out that when Grant tells people that quote unquote,

1300
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 1: handwriting experts have said that the last bit looks different. Um,

1301
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 1: what he really means is that the quality of the

1302
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,320
Speaker 1: scan that he, in his own words, tricked Love out

1303
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:46,720
Speaker 1: of having is too low quality for anybody to be

1304
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:49,559
Speaker 1: able to actually accurately analyze it. He was the fact

1305
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: he did. He told Courtney that he was gonna just

1306
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 1: look at it with his glasses on and then stole

1307
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 1: it from her, which is kind of shady in its

1308
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 1: own right. I agree both of them were not, but

1309
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 1: I don't blame him. I would have. I'm sorry, but

1310
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:08,960
Speaker 1: if you know, I don't. I don't call fowl on

1311
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:11,320
Speaker 1: that at all. No, I don't really call foul either.

1312
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:14,479
Speaker 1: I just like a little shady. But like I said,

1313
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:18,320
Speaker 1: both of them acting not the best, but the copy

1314
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 1: that he has which is the only copy that you

1315
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 1: know really exists right now. Courtney obviously isn't about to

1316
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:27,360
Speaker 1: release the original. Anybody who looks at it can't actually

1317
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:32,600
Speaker 1: analyze it, so worth mentioning. Okay, Courtney does have the

1318
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 1: original run she reportedly, Yeah, the police didn't take it.

1319
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 1: She got it best it because I mean that's how

1320
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 1: great got a copy of it. Yeah, okay. So, um,

1321
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:47,560
Speaker 1: if he was murdered, who did it? Well, obviously like

1322
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:50,200
Speaker 1: Courtney would have ordered it, right, I think she would

1323
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:52,839
Speaker 1: have overpowered him. That's the well, I mean, the theory

1324
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 1: is is like Corney paid somebody to kill Kurt rather

1325
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,760
Speaker 1: than doing it as a through the sheer force of

1326
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:02,960
Speaker 1: her own will. Yeah yeah, well, plus Courtney was still

1327
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:06,240
Speaker 1: in l A right Yeah. So um, here are some

1328
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:09,920
Speaker 1: answers to who might have killed Kurt Cobain. Uh. One

1329
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: is a guy by the name of Alan Wrench Um

1330
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 1: this theory you will probably know um more by a

1331
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 1: guy named El Deucee Douche or Ell Douce. It's Luche,

1332
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:28,479
Speaker 1: which is a total gag. I mean it's not his

1333
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:33,519
Speaker 1: real name. His name made up play on another word

1334
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 1: that is a hygiene product. I mean it's it's this

1335
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 1: guy's band did some really weird stuff and I know

1336
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 1: that that's where that. Yeah, we're going to talk about

1337
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 1: his Yeah. The way that we know about this guy,

1338
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:49,960
Speaker 1: whose real name is Elden Hope, was because this filmmaker

1339
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:52,720
Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, Nick Broomfield, who did the

1340
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 1: documentary Kurta and Courtney, he found this guy through like

1341
01:14:58,120 --> 01:15:02,400
Speaker 1: a really shady weird He was like talking to two dudes,

1342
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 1: one of whom refused to show his face on camera,

1343
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 1: and they were like gonna help him break into where

1344
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 1: Courtney was recording so they could get an interview, and

1345
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:17,800
Speaker 1: like it was really really kind of like weird stuff. Yeah,

1346
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 1: and then they said, oh, actually we know this guy

1347
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:25,360
Speaker 1: who says that um Courtney offered to pay money, So

1348
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,360
Speaker 1: like let's go down there and just see to kill

1349
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 1: to kill Cobain. Yeah. Uh. And his name was l Duce,

1350
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:37,320
Speaker 1: again not his real name. He was the lead singer

1351
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 1: of a band called the Mentors, and he was also, uh,

1352
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:46,799
Speaker 1: totally a drunk when Broomfield interviewed him at his property

1353
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 1: in California. He was super drunk. Oh, he was so loaded.

1354
01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 1: He was so loaded in fact, that he offered to

1355
01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:56,040
Speaker 1: provide more information if they got him some more beer.

1356
01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:03,320
Speaker 1: That's how drunk he was. But he like nonchalantly mentions

1357
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:07,840
Speaker 1: that Love offered him fifty dollars to kill Colbain. Uh.

1358
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:09,920
Speaker 1: He said he turned it down, but that his friend,

1359
01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:13,160
Speaker 1: quote Alan, had done it. I've done some digging, and

1360
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:15,559
Speaker 1: the guy that he's talking about is apparently a guy

1361
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:18,840
Speaker 1: called Alan Wrench, which probably is not this guy's real name,

1362
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:22,400
Speaker 1: who used to play for a band called Road Horror,

1363
01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 1: which basically didn't exist, or at least I literally can't

1364
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:29,800
Speaker 1: find any bit of it online either way. I've read

1365
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 1: a few things about this, mostly on Reddit, so take

1366
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,560
Speaker 1: it with a grain of salt, please, where somebody on

1367
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 1: Reddit claims to have been friends with both El Duce

1368
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:43,519
Speaker 1: and Alan, and this user claims that l d would

1369
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 1: never hurt anybody for money, but that Alan was a

1370
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:47,960
Speaker 1: jerk and would totally kill somebody. Well, there we go,

1371
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 1: concrete evidence. Who was sent by Ikea because he was

1372
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 1: the wrong size for the piece of furniture that somebody bought. Well,

1373
01:16:57,040 --> 01:16:59,679
Speaker 1: so was the thing nobody would give this guy, even

1374
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:03,000
Speaker 1: like moments thought, except for that two days after l

1375
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:06,640
Speaker 1: Ducha gave his interview interview to Broomfield. He ended up

1376
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 1: dead by getting hit by a train. Um, so, I

1377
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:15,920
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of the big question mark. His death

1378
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 1: was ruled accidental by police. And apparently l Ducha did

1379
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:22,760
Speaker 1: have a track record of people needing to babysit him

1380
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 1: when he was dumb, because when he was drunk, because

1381
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:28,360
Speaker 1: he would do stupid things. But the train he was

1382
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 1: hit by was kind of near his house, so that

1383
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:33,080
Speaker 1: makes sense. But in this read a threat again, take

1384
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:35,479
Speaker 1: it with a grain of salt. This guy says that

1385
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:38,560
Speaker 1: l Duch was hanging out with a friend, Um and

1386
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:42,160
Speaker 1: other member of the Mentors, which, by the way, their band. Yeah,

1387
01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:48,240
Speaker 1: the band called Sicky wife Beater, which really great names

1388
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 1: white trash actually white trash. That's not fair to white trash.

1389
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:56,160
Speaker 1: Actually do you did you ever read any of the

1390
01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 1: lyrics to some of the I did not because I

1391
01:17:59,040 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 1: didn't want to subject to my up to it. Holy

1392
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:07,400
Speaker 1: how it's Yeah. So apparently Alan shows up, um when

1393
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:10,760
Speaker 1: l Duch is hanging out with Sicky wife Beater, and um,

1394
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:13,920
Speaker 1: he was angry that al Douche had said some stuff

1395
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:17,439
Speaker 1: on the movie. How he two days after he gave

1396
01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:19,599
Speaker 1: an interview, how he found out that l do had

1397
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:23,400
Speaker 1: like said those things. Who knows, that's easy. That's the

1398
01:18:23,479 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 1: grape vine have you have you. I have spent enough

1399
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:32,880
Speaker 1: time with drunks and folks of that ilk that the

1400
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 1: grape vibe people just sit around and they love to

1401
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:39,360
Speaker 1: tell what the what other people did. And I can

1402
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:42,479
Speaker 1: just see that getting back to if this really happened.

1403
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:44,720
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is really happening, but I can

1404
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:48,240
Speaker 1: see it very easily, getting back to the guy lightning

1405
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:52,519
Speaker 1: fast and he coming over the next day and confronting him. Yeah,

1406
01:18:52,880 --> 01:18:56,240
Speaker 1: so that's I mean, the story goes that Alan shows up,

1407
01:18:56,600 --> 01:19:00,240
Speaker 1: he's annoyed, they leave together, and then they could be

1408
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 1: morning to continue the interview. Yeah, and the next morning

1409
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:06,240
Speaker 1: I'll do winds up hit by a train. You know,

1410
01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I uh, I was gonna murder

1411
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:10,640
Speaker 1: somebody getting a run over by a train with that

1412
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:13,040
Speaker 1: myself getting run over to it just seems like a

1413
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 1: tough way to do it. It seems like there's easier ways,

1414
01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:18,360
Speaker 1: not if they're drunk. I was, yeah, I was gonna say,

1415
01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:21,639
Speaker 1: now you know the train track, let's walk this way. Hey,

1416
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:26,120
Speaker 1: come on, drunkie McGhee. Um, look, there's training mctrain face

1417
01:19:26,280 --> 01:19:30,519
Speaker 1: going by right now and shove. Oh you're getting sleepy.

1418
01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:35,000
Speaker 1: This is a great place from you. I mean, it's

1419
01:19:35,040 --> 01:19:38,040
Speaker 1: not nice. Um, I don't really believe it, although I

1420
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:39,720
Speaker 1: will say it is. I get like, you know, it's

1421
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:41,479
Speaker 1: one of those things where it's like, it is a

1422
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:45,120
Speaker 1: little weird that two days after he said he totally

1423
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 1: knew who killed Kurt Cobain and made it look like

1424
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:51,280
Speaker 1: an accident or or a suicide. Uh, he shows up

1425
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 1: dead by a mysterious getting hit by train accident and

1426
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:58,439
Speaker 1: then the internet's favorite kind of coincidence it is. Yeah,

1427
01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:01,479
Speaker 1: and it's one of mine too. Actually, actually pretty cool that,

1428
01:20:01,960 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 1: you know, you would think that Alan Ranch would have

1429
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:06,559
Speaker 1: gone and baited visit to Nick Broomfield. It's cameraman too.

1430
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:08,880
Speaker 1: You would think he did know how to get a

1431
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:13,719
Speaker 1: hold of him. Broomfield was up and down the West Coast. Yeah,

1432
01:20:14,040 --> 01:20:16,519
Speaker 1: I don't know so. Um. One of the other people

1433
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:18,280
Speaker 1: that could have done it, I guess is the nanny Calli.

1434
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:21,439
Speaker 1: So we're under our next suspect. Yeah, I don't think

1435
01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:23,840
Speaker 1: Calli probably did it, but I guess there's something to

1436
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:26,040
Speaker 1: be said of like maybe they were getting high together.

1437
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 1: I don't really Okay, Yeah, I was gonna say this again.

1438
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:33,360
Speaker 1: I was actually surprised that he is not as much

1439
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:37,160
Speaker 1: of a suspect as he is. I really expected people

1440
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:40,200
Speaker 1: to be like I could totally see those two in

1441
01:20:40,400 --> 01:20:46,320
Speaker 1: the Greenhouse using and then something happening and CALLI being like,

1442
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:52,639
Speaker 1: I gotta go, oh crap. I mean, I can see

1443
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:55,880
Speaker 1: this very easily being the case. Yeah, but I just

1444
01:20:56,160 --> 01:21:00,320
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, yeah, I can't see it myself. I

1445
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:02,680
Speaker 1: can't either. But I don't know anything about Callie's well,

1446
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:04,800
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about Callie either, But I mean

1447
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:08,519
Speaker 1: I just know that I think Callie and what was

1448
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:10,960
Speaker 1: he the guy who bought the Dylan, both of them,

1449
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 1: I think they lived off of the Cobain money for

1450
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:19,200
Speaker 1: a long time after Kurt was gone through Courtney, she

1451
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:22,720
Speaker 1: supported them. So I'm sure that if something happened and

1452
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:26,000
Speaker 1: it was an accident, I could see him going, oh god,

1453
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:30,400
Speaker 1: I just did this. Oh God, I am so screwed

1454
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:33,280
Speaker 1: because I can't afford this much heroin and I had

1455
01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:37,439
Speaker 1: this great gig going on and I'm just gonna walk

1456
01:21:37,439 --> 01:21:39,680
Speaker 1: out of the room and I wasn't here, yea, So

1457
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: it was yeah, well, yeah, I saw he was playing

1458
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 1: with the shock Enny blue Kurt's head off, or they

1459
01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 1: were screwed or arguing or whatever. I mean, because there

1460
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:49,360
Speaker 1: is the letter that was left on the stairs that

1461
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:53,519
Speaker 1: Grant Tom Grant, Yeah, from Cali. The Tom Grant says

1462
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:57,400
Speaker 1: was a forgery of some kind. There's all kinds of

1463
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 1: machinations about it. But the point is he wrote a

1464
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 1: letter and it wasn't all that positive to Kurt, and

1465
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:08,240
Speaker 1: he could have done that after the fact, going I

1466
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:12,320
Speaker 1: was there, let's do this thing to direct suspicion weight

1467
01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:15,799
Speaker 1: for me. I guess the only again, I'm playing Devil's

1468
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 1: here totally absolutely, But I think like the problem I

1469
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:22,599
Speaker 1: have with that is that it was It's totally reasonable

1470
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 1: for Callie to have found the body. You know, like

1471
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:29,160
Speaker 1: if you if that happened, you like wait a day, right,

1472
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:31,200
Speaker 1: and then you call the cops and you say, oh

1473
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:35,480
Speaker 1: my god, I just found my employer's body. That implies

1474
01:22:36,360 --> 01:22:42,160
Speaker 1: logical raps sober sober thinking. You're right, that's true when

1475
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:46,360
Speaker 1: you are do use. We don't know that CALLI was

1476
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 1: using at all. Yeah, Keli was totally in in the

1477
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:54,719
Speaker 1: on the team. How how is it to you hire

1478
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:58,720
Speaker 1: a nanny for your daughter because it's your friend. You

1479
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:02,120
Speaker 1: want to help her love. Yeah, if you want to

1480
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:04,880
Speaker 1: help your friends, so you help your friend out. And

1481
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:07,320
Speaker 1: you just know usual while you're watching the kid, your

1482
01:23:07,360 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 1: girlfriend can get high. But you, I mean, people do

1483
01:23:10,240 --> 01:23:13,200
Speaker 1: this kind of weird stuff all the time. So that's

1484
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:18,439
Speaker 1: why I say that it's completely plausible. Okay, here's just

1485
01:23:18,560 --> 01:23:21,160
Speaker 1: one more interesting thing before we start talking about maybe

1486
01:23:21,240 --> 01:23:25,800
Speaker 1: it was suicide. Courtney Love alleged that Kurt Cobain was

1487
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:29,160
Speaker 1: having an affair, specifically that he was having an affair

1488
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:33,719
Speaker 1: with Um, the bassis of Love's band Hole Um, whose

1489
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:36,719
Speaker 1: name was Kristen Faff, and at the very least, Faff

1490
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:39,120
Speaker 1: and Cobain were very good friends. I don't know if

1491
01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:41,720
Speaker 1: they were having an affair or not, but um, I

1492
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:45,839
Speaker 1: don't think we'll ever know. Uh. She, like almost everybody

1493
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:48,879
Speaker 1: else in this entire story, had a pretty strong heroin addiction.

1494
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 1: She had gone to detox in February of um and

1495
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:56,720
Speaker 1: she was reportedly clean, but took Cobain's death really, really hard,

1496
01:23:56,840 --> 01:23:59,760
Speaker 1: as you can imagine a close friend or potentially lover

1497
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:04,360
Speaker 1: who knows dies in kind of a brutal, violent way. Um,

1498
01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 1: she quit whole and decided to move back to Minneapolis,

1499
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:10,280
Speaker 1: where she was originally from. She was living in Seattle

1500
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:12,719
Speaker 1: at the time. Well that's where the scene was. Yeah,

1501
01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:15,920
Speaker 1: that's that's where well, that's where hole was whole all

1502
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:22,880
Speaker 1: live together, that's where Seattle. Yeah. On June sixteenth night, however,

1503
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:25,680
Speaker 1: she was found dead of a heroin overdose in her

1504
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:31,200
Speaker 1: apartment in Seattle. Well, I mean that a lot of

1505
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:34,240
Speaker 1: people do think this death was pretty suspicious. Even fast

1506
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:37,400
Speaker 1: family feels that her death wasn't a suicide or an

1507
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 1: accidental overdose. They think there was some foul play involved.

1508
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:43,599
Speaker 1: And yeah, every time I hear about some junkie turning

1509
01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 1: up dead of an overdose. Yeah, yeah. She had reportedly

1510
01:24:46,479 --> 01:24:49,160
Speaker 1: been like successfully clean for those months. And again, you know,

1511
01:24:49,240 --> 01:24:50,880
Speaker 1: it's like she was in Seattle, she was with her friends.

1512
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:54,760
Speaker 1: She's probably using again. Um, but that's the same thing

1513
01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:56,800
Speaker 1: that I talked about before, those that if you're off

1514
01:24:56,840 --> 01:24:59,280
Speaker 1: of it for a while and you're like, hey, I

1515
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:03,840
Speaker 1: can take three CC's no problem, I don't know, and

1516
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:06,240
Speaker 1: it doesn't work, and then that's what puts you in

1517
01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:09,000
Speaker 1: the ground. I thought one website very eloquently put it

1518
01:25:09,200 --> 01:25:11,920
Speaker 1: that both fat and Cobain were in the process of

1519
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:18,320
Speaker 1: leaving Love. It's I mean, it's true. Yeah, that's very true.

1520
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:20,920
Speaker 1: They were both leaving her and standing in her way

1521
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:24,639
Speaker 1: of a lot of success and money. Basically, Um, but that's,

1522
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 1: you know, just one one person theory. Next up, let's

1523
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:32,200
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the number two, number two

1524
01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:35,200
Speaker 1: super number two. He had a number two suicide in

1525
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:40,879
Speaker 1: this eighteen hour episode. In an interview one of Cobain's friends,

1526
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:43,120
Speaker 1: I got to be honest, I do not recall which

1527
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:47,880
Speaker 1: one said that if Courtney Love didn't kill or have

1528
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:52,360
Speaker 1: Cobain killed, that she drove him to it. And I

1529
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:55,800
Speaker 1: think I don't really like Courtney Love very much. It

1530
01:25:55,920 --> 01:25:59,200
Speaker 1: may may not be coming across, but I don't really

1531
01:25:59,439 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 1: like her very much. I think that she wanted a

1532
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:04,880
Speaker 1: lot of things that Colbain did not want. I think

1533
01:26:05,120 --> 01:26:08,960
Speaker 1: she was really worried about the money in the relationship,

1534
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 1: the fame and the relationship. I think she wanted a

1535
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:14,000
Speaker 1: lot of things and was trying to push him to

1536
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:16,360
Speaker 1: do a lot of things that he didn't necessarily want

1537
01:26:16,400 --> 01:26:18,720
Speaker 1: to do. I mean, you know, case in points, she

1538
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:22,080
Speaker 1: really did not approve of him, like canceling, lollapalooza, Yah,

1539
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 1: she really did not a lot of money. She really

1540
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:28,439
Speaker 1: did not approve of him, like not having Nirvana be

1541
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:32,520
Speaker 1: a thing anymore. Yeah, I think that she was very controlling.

1542
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:35,639
Speaker 1: I mean of her referred to as a harpie before,

1543
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:40,080
Speaker 1: which I will not disagree to a point. Seems to

1544
01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:43,000
Speaker 1: be an accurate description of her behavior at the time.

1545
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:46,040
Speaker 1: And I'm not I'm not saying that's her or the

1546
01:26:46,160 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 1: drugs or what, but you know what I mean, it's

1547
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 1: easy to to point the finger after the fact. It's

1548
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:57,400
Speaker 1: the same thing as as the he was suicidal in Rome. Yeah,

1549
01:26:57,600 --> 01:27:02,160
Speaker 1: it's easy to say after fact, look at how controlling

1550
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 1: she Wasn't all these things she did that drove him

1551
01:27:05,479 --> 01:27:08,840
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's turned the

1552
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:11,280
Speaker 1: coin which way you want. Well, I guess you know.

1553
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:13,680
Speaker 1: One of the things I'll point out is that she

1554
01:27:13,840 --> 01:27:17,320
Speaker 1: hired a private detective to find Kurt and then play games,

1555
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:21,280
Speaker 1: and well, she stayed in l A. She knew Cobain

1556
01:27:21,439 --> 01:27:23,960
Speaker 1: was in Seattle, but she stayed in l A because

1557
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:26,400
Speaker 1: she said she had business to take care of down there.

1558
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:29,960
Speaker 1: If you really thought that your husband was like suicidal

1559
01:27:30,200 --> 01:27:32,960
Speaker 1: and like on a bender, if you knew in what

1560
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:35,000
Speaker 1: city he was in. Would you just be like, you

1561
01:27:35,040 --> 01:27:36,600
Speaker 1: know what, I'm just gonna stay here though, I'm not

1562
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:38,559
Speaker 1: going to go up there. And yeah, I can find

1563
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:42,519
Speaker 1: again rational sober thinking. But also, you know, she did

1564
01:27:42,600 --> 01:27:45,920
Speaker 1: hire a private detective. I mean, it's certain amount of

1565
01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:47,840
Speaker 1: expense to go to to try to track down your

1566
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:52,679
Speaker 1: potentially suicidal husband. She did. Yeah, so I mean, you know, again,

1567
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:55,120
Speaker 1: it's flipped of a coin either way. I I think

1568
01:27:55,160 --> 01:27:57,200
Speaker 1: it's likely that she wanted a lot from her life

1569
01:27:57,240 --> 01:27:59,519
Speaker 1: that Cobain didn't. And it does sound like they were

1570
01:27:59,560 --> 01:28:01,920
Speaker 1: in the process us of they're at least in a

1571
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:06,519
Speaker 1: rough patch. She tried to get into movies after she wasn't.

1572
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:10,439
Speaker 1: She did at least one vie. I thought she did

1573
01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:12,840
Speaker 1: one or two movies after she cleaned up. I mean,

1574
01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:19,200
Speaker 1: she really was striving for that music Hollywood fame model.

1575
01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:22,800
Speaker 1: And it sounds like and it sounds like Cobain really

1576
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:25,240
Speaker 1: did not like that. He wanted to live a totally

1577
01:28:25,280 --> 01:28:29,000
Speaker 1: different life. And so, you know, who can say what

1578
01:28:29,240 --> 01:28:32,680
Speaker 1: causes somebody to kill themselves. But I'm not saying that

1579
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:36,400
Speaker 1: she helped the situation at all. But I'm also not

1580
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:39,920
Speaker 1: saying he's she's responsible either. Yeah, Cobain. So here's some

1581
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:42,719
Speaker 1: like we're just kind of listing off, sorry, like reasons

1582
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:45,879
Speaker 1: that he might have killed himself. Cobain had been apparently

1583
01:28:45,960 --> 01:28:48,560
Speaker 1: trying to get clean for a while. He'd gone to

1584
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:51,200
Speaker 1: rehab and detox a number of times and it had

1585
01:28:51,240 --> 01:28:53,640
Speaker 1: never stuck. So it's possible that he just hit a

1586
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:55,920
Speaker 1: point where he was like, this is never gonna work.

1587
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:57,479
Speaker 1: I'm going to live my life as an addict and

1588
01:28:57,560 --> 01:28:59,120
Speaker 1: that's just dumb and I don't want to do it.

1589
01:28:59,439 --> 01:29:01,519
Speaker 1: And I'm noting that as like that's what I think

1590
01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:04,800
Speaker 1: people should be feeling. I'm saying that as that's something

1591
01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 1: that I've read from people talking about interpretation. No, no, no,

1592
01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:12,880
Speaker 1: I mean like people who are actual in recovery saying

1593
01:29:13,080 --> 01:29:14,960
Speaker 1: I hit a point in my life where I thought

1594
01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:17,960
Speaker 1: this isn't worth living. I can't do this, I can't

1595
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:20,040
Speaker 1: ever get clean, and it's not worth living if I

1596
01:29:20,120 --> 01:29:22,400
Speaker 1: can't get clean, and then trying to kill themselves and

1597
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:26,760
Speaker 1: obviously being unsuccessful and eventually being successful in recovering. But

1598
01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:30,680
Speaker 1: that's a that's a fairly common thought with like very

1599
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:33,720
Speaker 1: heavy addicts of certain things. I can see that, you know,

1600
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:36,479
Speaker 1: you realize the necessity to get clean, but you realize

1601
01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:38,640
Speaker 1: at the same time it's like your life as a

1602
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:42,880
Speaker 1: non high person is like just kind of like hell, well,

1603
01:29:42,920 --> 01:29:45,439
Speaker 1: if that or I mean if that or that, you

1604
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:47,360
Speaker 1: will never like, if you've tried to get clean a

1605
01:29:47,439 --> 01:29:49,360
Speaker 1: number of times and it keeps not working, you may

1606
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:52,280
Speaker 1: just think it's never gonna happen. I'm always going to

1607
01:29:52,360 --> 01:29:55,400
Speaker 1: be addicted to heroin. I may as well just kill myself.

1608
01:29:56,160 --> 01:29:59,600
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, there's a well, there's a is not

1609
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:05,080
Speaker 1: the only addiction. I mean, addictions in general causes that

1610
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:09,599
Speaker 1: reaction or the thought process, and then I guess another

1611
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:12,360
Speaker 1: thing to bring up. Um, I know, I you know,

1612
01:30:12,439 --> 01:30:15,519
Speaker 1: I've been harping on the He wasn't suicidal. He wasn't suicidal.

1613
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:18,240
Speaker 1: They weren't suicide attempts. But you know what, maybe he was.

1614
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:21,000
Speaker 1: Maybe he actually did try to kill himself in Rome.

1615
01:30:21,040 --> 01:30:22,960
Speaker 1: Maybe he actually did try to kill himself in his

1616
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 1: house in Seattle and March eighteenth, but they were trying

1617
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:30,679
Speaker 1: to cover it up because I mean, it's totally possible

1618
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:34,559
Speaker 1: that he was suicidal and that at every turn, every attempt,

1619
01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:38,720
Speaker 1: there was just a pr push to say no, no, no, no, no,

1620
01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:42,400
Speaker 1: he's not suicidal. These are all accidents because you don't

1621
01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:44,880
Speaker 1: like who what publicist in this world is like, yeah,

1622
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:47,440
Speaker 1: it's totally fine to tell everybody that my client is suicidal,

1623
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:51,519
Speaker 1: and you know, like that's not that's not good. So

1624
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:54,840
Speaker 1: it's it's certainly possible. The police report did say he

1625
01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,560
Speaker 1: said he wasn't suicidal, but like maybe he realized that

1626
01:30:57,640 --> 01:31:00,000
Speaker 1: it Like you don't tell a police officer I'm suicide.

1627
01:31:00,560 --> 01:31:03,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, they all will take you to jail, they'll

1628
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:07,160
Speaker 1: lock you up, they'll put health Yeah yeah. Well here's why.

1629
01:31:07,360 --> 01:31:10,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure Courtney Love did not murder him or have

1630
01:31:10,160 --> 01:31:13,519
Speaker 1: him murdered, and she didn't have to hit the hand strength.

1631
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:17,720
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I don't. I don't believe el Duch who

1632
01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:21,240
Speaker 1: you know about the offer or anything like that. And

1633
01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:24,360
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is Courtney Um is the

1634
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:27,200
Speaker 1: one who initiated the intervention to try to get him

1635
01:31:27,200 --> 01:31:31,080
Speaker 1: cleaned up. And I gotta tell you, if you're planning

1636
01:31:31,120 --> 01:31:34,519
Speaker 1: on murdering your husband, if you want him dead, why

1637
01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:36,560
Speaker 1: would you want to get him off heroin I'd be

1638
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:38,800
Speaker 1: the last thing in the world you would do. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

1639
01:31:39,120 --> 01:31:41,240
Speaker 1: I mean if I had been and she's obviously was,

1640
01:31:41,360 --> 01:31:44,519
Speaker 1: she was a drug. She had good connections street hair

1641
01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:47,479
Speaker 1: when it was like what maybe at the most, and

1642
01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:49,880
Speaker 1: she probably had the connections to get some really super

1643
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:52,720
Speaker 1: pure stuff she could just Maybe that's why he had

1644
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:54,200
Speaker 1: so much of his names. Maybe she did try to

1645
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:58,000
Speaker 1: kill him. Maybe she got some super pure stuff swapped

1646
01:31:58,040 --> 01:31:59,800
Speaker 1: it in with his and that's how we wanted was

1647
01:31:59,840 --> 01:32:01,880
Speaker 1: so much. Heroin is his system. But I think more

1648
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:03,920
Speaker 1: likely he was planning on killing himself and he thought

1649
01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:05,639
Speaker 1: he'd just go out on the floating on the greatest

1650
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:08,120
Speaker 1: high ever is what I think he did. Yeah, but

1651
01:32:08,240 --> 01:32:12,920
Speaker 1: to see that, my problem is if he intended to

1652
01:32:13,160 --> 01:32:16,439
Speaker 1: do himself in and he was gonna get high ahead

1653
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:19,880
Speaker 1: of time, and it is very common knowledge that people

1654
01:32:20,040 --> 01:32:24,240
Speaker 1: can easily o d on heroin, then why bring the

1655
01:32:24,320 --> 01:32:27,040
Speaker 1: gun in? Why not just go? You know what, I'm

1656
01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:31,599
Speaker 1: just gonna keep pushing the plunger down until I don't

1657
01:32:31,640 --> 01:32:33,960
Speaker 1: wake up again and I can I still move my hand,

1658
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:37,599
Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna keep going. I mean, that's certain,

1659
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:40,200
Speaker 1: and it's it's not It's also not dramatic. I mean,

1660
01:32:40,280 --> 01:32:41,920
Speaker 1: do you you know he probably asked that to hself

1661
01:32:41,960 --> 01:32:43,479
Speaker 1: that I want to be do I want to be

1662
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:47,519
Speaker 1: known as his tormentitor artist who killed himself, or as

1663
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:51,479
Speaker 1: a junkie who's screwed up and ode what do I

1664
01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:54,280
Speaker 1: want to be known as? Yeah, And actually it's interesting.

1665
01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:57,240
Speaker 1: I don't think that there's any better. I don't think

1666
01:32:57,320 --> 01:32:59,160
Speaker 1: one is any better than the other. But that's my

1667
01:32:59,320 --> 01:33:02,080
Speaker 1: personal pain. Well, there's a there's a quote from one

1668
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:03,800
Speaker 1: of his friends that says, you know, it was really

1669
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:06,439
Speaker 1: violent death, Like it's that, which is true. I mean,

1670
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:10,960
Speaker 1: you shoot yourself in the face with a shotgun. But

1671
01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:13,439
Speaker 1: it was interesting because then this quote that you know,

1672
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:17,040
Speaker 1: his friend was saying, um, that wasn't hurt. It's weird.

1673
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:19,240
Speaker 1: There was no violence in Curt and it's weird that

1674
01:33:19,360 --> 01:33:21,559
Speaker 1: he chose to go out that way, which I think

1675
01:33:21,680 --> 01:33:24,880
Speaker 1: is a fair thing to say. But I also, I mean,

1676
01:33:25,920 --> 01:33:28,559
Speaker 1: you pass out before you die from heroin, I mean,

1677
01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:30,680
Speaker 1: you just do right. And so if you're trying to

1678
01:33:30,760 --> 01:33:34,280
Speaker 1: kill yourself like by Odee, there's it's not certain that

1679
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:36,560
Speaker 1: you're going to die. You might just wake up and

1680
01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 1: be living in hell, right, as opposed to if you

1681
01:33:40,479 --> 01:33:42,439
Speaker 1: stick a shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger,

1682
01:33:42,640 --> 01:33:46,080
Speaker 1: you're probably gonna die, especially if you've taken a bunch

1683
01:33:46,120 --> 01:33:49,680
Speaker 1: of heroin. I mean, it's just it's certainty, you know,

1684
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:54,400
Speaker 1: it's that backup plan. But I hear it again. I again,

1685
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:57,840
Speaker 1: if if I don't want to belabor this, it's just

1686
01:33:57,960 --> 01:33:59,840
Speaker 1: that I think if the guy wanted to get hot

1687
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:03,880
Speaker 1: before he did it, then why not just get so

1688
01:34:04,240 --> 01:34:08,280
Speaker 1: high that you go out and you don't have to

1689
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 1: lift a finger. He could have been close, Frankly, I mean,

1690
01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:14,640
Speaker 1: you know, we don't know what his tolerance was, so

1691
01:34:14,720 --> 01:34:16,760
Speaker 1: he could have been really close to being that high.

1692
01:34:17,960 --> 01:34:21,439
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I do think that it's pretty

1693
01:34:21,479 --> 01:34:24,200
Speaker 1: definitive that he was not murdered. Well, I think I

1694
01:34:24,320 --> 01:34:27,160
Speaker 1: think either way, I can see the arguments of a side.

1695
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 1: That's that's my problem with this case. That's why I

1696
01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:31,320
Speaker 1: didn't throw up the red flag of why are we

1697
01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:34,320
Speaker 1: doing this? Is because I can see the arguments whether

1698
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:38,040
Speaker 1: I behind him or not. And I thought it was.

1699
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:40,439
Speaker 1: But the only person who had a motive to murder

1700
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:44,720
Speaker 1: him was Courtney Love as far as I know, Yeah, yeah,

1701
01:34:44,720 --> 01:34:47,880
Speaker 1: there you go, Courtney and Courtney again, Courtney would not

1702
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:49,679
Speaker 1: have sent him to rehab if she wanted him dead.

1703
01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:51,360
Speaker 1: She I mean, she would have what she would have

1704
01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:52,960
Speaker 1: done if she would have waited until he was off

1705
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:55,800
Speaker 1: somewhere in the greenhouse getting you know, shooting up. She

1706
01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:57,320
Speaker 1: would have waited until he was kind of like just

1707
01:34:57,520 --> 01:34:59,840
Speaker 1: laid back and just sat like oh, and then she

1708
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:02,320
Speaker 1: just would have stepped into the room with the hypodermic

1709
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:05,200
Speaker 1: and shot a whole bunch more haroin into his arm

1710
01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:07,240
Speaker 1: and killed him that way. There's no need to use

1711
01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:10,320
Speaker 1: a shotgun. She would have let him die in Rome. Yeah,

1712
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:11,960
Speaker 1: she would have let him dye in Rome for that matter.

1713
01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:14,479
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it simply makes no sense that

1714
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:18,080
Speaker 1: Courtney was a murderer. Absolutely not. I've said it before

1715
01:35:18,160 --> 01:35:21,160
Speaker 1: and I'll say it again that that implies rational thinking.

1716
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:25,840
Speaker 1: Known enough people who were so irrational that I just

1717
01:35:26,560 --> 01:35:29,240
Speaker 1: they're hot and cold. I think for me, the biggest

1718
01:35:29,240 --> 01:35:31,400
Speaker 1: thing about this case is that it was such a

1719
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:36,320
Speaker 1: huge failure on the part of the Seattle police. They

1720
01:35:37,040 --> 01:35:42,320
Speaker 1: found the body, declared the instantly it was Suicially it

1721
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:45,800
Speaker 1: was a suicide, and they claimed that because the beat

1722
01:35:45,880 --> 01:35:48,720
Speaker 1: cop that responded to the call said it kind of

1723
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:52,360
Speaker 1: looked like a suicide, and not like from the mouth

1724
01:35:52,439 --> 01:35:54,360
Speaker 1: of the guy who was the police chief at the time.

1725
01:35:54,720 --> 01:35:57,880
Speaker 1: He said, well, if the if the guy who responds says,

1726
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:00,639
Speaker 1: it looks like a suicide, and the paramedics, yeah, okay,

1727
01:36:01,240 --> 01:36:03,920
Speaker 1: then it's a suicide. They didn't get a talk screen back,

1728
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:10,519
Speaker 1: they didn't get fingerprints back, they didn't process, They did nothing,

1729
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:14,800
Speaker 1: And that I think is probably why this is even

1730
01:36:15,000 --> 01:36:17,960
Speaker 1: a case right now. They didn't know who he was.

1731
01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:21,200
Speaker 1: He didn't know who he I don't know. I think

1732
01:36:21,240 --> 01:36:23,040
Speaker 1: that when they made their decision of what it was,

1733
01:36:23,200 --> 01:36:25,880
Speaker 1: they didn't know who he was. To realize that they

1734
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:28,200
Speaker 1: had to do their due diligence before they got their

1735
01:36:28,280 --> 01:36:30,719
Speaker 1: ass is handed to. I guess the thing that annoys

1736
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:34,280
Speaker 1: me about that statement is that, like, it shouldn't matter

1737
01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:39,040
Speaker 1: who he was. That was they found heroin paraphernalia like

1738
01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:41,400
Speaker 1: two feet away from him, he obviously would have had

1739
01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:44,240
Speaker 1: track marks. He yes, okay, so there was a shotgun,

1740
01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:46,840
Speaker 1: you know, on him, and it looked like a suicide.

1741
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:49,479
Speaker 1: But you at least wait for a talk screen if

1742
01:36:49,520 --> 01:36:51,760
Speaker 1: you found drugs in the room, you gotta wait for

1743
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:54,800
Speaker 1: a talk screen before you You just can't declare at

1744
01:36:54,800 --> 01:36:57,439
Speaker 1: the scene. And I think for me that's the biggest

1745
01:36:57,479 --> 01:37:01,360
Speaker 1: frustration with this case. Whether know, I don't think Courtney

1746
01:37:01,400 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 1: Love is a particularly good human being, whether I think

1747
01:37:04,520 --> 01:37:07,240
Speaker 1: you know anything, the fact that the Seattle Police did

1748
01:37:07,320 --> 01:37:10,720
Speaker 1: such a crap job on this is just frustrating as hell.

1749
01:37:12,080 --> 01:37:13,800
Speaker 1: I think the other reason that this has gone on

1750
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:16,880
Speaker 1: so long is that there's been so many There's been

1751
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:19,360
Speaker 1: so many things that were thrown into the mix that

1752
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:24,479
Speaker 1: really they're weird, and it's because it's I'm famous slash

1753
01:37:24,720 --> 01:37:28,320
Speaker 1: Hollywood slash big rocker guy weird, Like the whole he

1754
01:37:28,479 --> 01:37:32,960
Speaker 1: had stomach issues thing that which we're no. Well, you

1755
01:37:33,000 --> 01:37:35,599
Speaker 1: know what's funny is that I remember I remember when

1756
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:39,600
Speaker 1: the news came out on MTV news because I was

1757
01:37:39,720 --> 01:37:42,960
Speaker 1: at some trip high school trip with a bunch of

1758
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:46,320
Speaker 1: friends and it came out, and I remember one body turning, going,

1759
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:49,679
Speaker 1: you know that he's totally had stomach issues for years

1760
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:51,800
Speaker 1: and like he could barely eat and move, and I'm

1761
01:37:51,840 --> 01:37:54,559
Speaker 1: sure that that's totally what did it? Like, those are

1762
01:37:54,600 --> 01:37:56,920
Speaker 1: the kind of things that you hear and that's stuck

1763
01:37:57,000 --> 01:37:59,840
Speaker 1: with me for decades. You know what, Stomach pains are

1764
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:05,560
Speaker 1: really good sign of withdraw That's a good point, But

1765
01:38:05,640 --> 01:38:07,120
Speaker 1: I think we're going on too long. I think I

1766
01:38:07,160 --> 01:38:10,960
Speaker 1: think we've already solved the mystery he wasn't murdered, he

1767
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 1: committed suicide. Yeah, I mean I think that's probably true too. Yeah,

1768
01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:18,679
Speaker 1: it was suicide. I think there's a lot of stuff

1769
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:21,599
Speaker 1: going on with the case. But the Seattle, the Seattle see,

1770
01:38:21,800 --> 01:38:25,439
Speaker 1: the Seattle p D did not do their due diligence.

1771
01:38:25,680 --> 01:38:28,960
Speaker 1: They really should have, you know, been a little more.

1772
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:32,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure they looked into it a bit, and then

1773
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:33,800
Speaker 1: they went back to that police report. They know he

1774
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:37,040
Speaker 1: was locked in the bedroom and suicidal, and then Courtney says, oh, yeah,

1775
01:38:37,040 --> 01:38:39,400
Speaker 1: he tried to give it suicide in Italy, you know,

1776
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:41,639
Speaker 1: and so that was probably for them all they needed.

1777
01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:44,040
Speaker 1: I don't think they even did that much, to be honest.

1778
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:48,560
Speaker 1: It might not be, but you know, that's that's just

1779
01:38:48,680 --> 01:38:50,599
Speaker 1: the way it is, you know, with you know those

1780
01:38:50,600 --> 01:38:53,960
Speaker 1: guys have you know, I mean we all cut corners, right, Yeah,

1781
01:38:54,120 --> 01:38:59,400
Speaker 1: it happens except with the podcast. Yeah, but everybody cats corners.

1782
01:38:59,479 --> 01:39:01,240
Speaker 1: So they were just like you. And then there's always

1783
01:39:01,320 --> 01:39:03,120
Speaker 1: this group think and you just sort of get into

1784
01:39:03,160 --> 01:39:06,560
Speaker 1: that whole, like, you know, everybody thinks it's suicide. I

1785
01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:09,120
Speaker 1: guess it's suicide. So yeah, but in this case, I

1786
01:39:09,200 --> 01:39:14,240
Speaker 1: think it was. Yeah, I agree, everything seems to point

1787
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:18,840
Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, it's just you know, frustrating. Yeah yeah,

1788
01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:22,920
Speaker 1: so yeah, anyway, I've got more theories, but I need

1789
01:39:22,960 --> 01:39:26,800
Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom. So should we wrap this up? Yeah? Yeah,

1790
01:39:27,120 --> 01:39:30,080
Speaker 1: let's wrap this up because probably have to go to

1791
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:35,080
Speaker 1: the bathroom too. Probably they're like circling the block waiting

1792
01:39:35,120 --> 01:39:38,920
Speaker 1: to go to work. You can if you want to

1793
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:41,800
Speaker 1: see some of the research we did. We'll post some

1794
01:39:42,080 --> 01:39:44,800
Speaker 1: of those links, not all of them. We might post

1795
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:48,040
Speaker 1: a couple extra links this week. Steve Um maybe soaked

1796
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:52,479
Speaker 1: in bleach and not um, but you can find that

1797
01:39:52,960 --> 01:39:55,960
Speaker 1: on our website, which is Thinking Side with podcast dot com.

1798
01:39:56,400 --> 01:39:58,400
Speaker 1: You can leave comments on this episode if you want.

1799
01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:01,200
Speaker 1: You can also stream us straight from the website, um,

1800
01:40:01,479 --> 01:40:03,240
Speaker 1: if you so choose. I know we have just a

1801
01:40:03,320 --> 01:40:06,240
Speaker 1: few people who do that. Also on the website there

1802
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:11,519
Speaker 1: are links for like merch and donations and stuff like that. Yeah,

1803
01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:13,639
Speaker 1: we've updated the merch. You can get stickers and stuff

1804
01:40:13,680 --> 01:40:16,839
Speaker 1: now which is and was sold like sex of those yesterday,

1805
01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:21,599
Speaker 1: I think six whole stickers. It's yeah. Um, So if

1806
01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:24,040
Speaker 1: you want to buy merch, if you want to do

1807
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:26,599
Speaker 1: a one time donation through PayPal, or if you want

1808
01:40:26,640 --> 01:40:31,040
Speaker 1: to become one of our sustaining donors through Patreon links.

1809
01:40:31,240 --> 01:40:34,760
Speaker 1: UM are on the website for that as well. You

1810
01:40:35,120 --> 01:40:37,960
Speaker 1: are probably listening to us on iTunes. If you are,

1811
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:40,439
Speaker 1: leave a comments generating if you haven't already. That's how

1812
01:40:40,479 --> 01:40:43,479
Speaker 1: people find us and you make us rise through the ranks,

1813
01:40:43,680 --> 01:40:46,920
Speaker 1: like Nobody's business. Yeah we want that. Yeah don't. If

1814
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:49,120
Speaker 1: you have feedback please, I mean, like, if you want

1815
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:50,760
Speaker 1: to have a conversation with us, don't do it there

1816
01:40:50,760 --> 01:40:53,559
Speaker 1: because we can't get in contact with you. If you're

1817
01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:55,800
Speaker 1: streaming and you can leave a comment and a rating,

1818
01:40:55,880 --> 01:40:59,880
Speaker 1: do that there as well. You can find us on Facebook.

1819
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:01,960
Speaker 1: We have the group in the page. Like the page,

1820
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:05,400
Speaker 1: follow the group. Lots of really good stuff going on there.

1821
01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:09,280
Speaker 1: We have a Twitter which is Thinking Sideways, which is

1822
01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:14,600
Speaker 1: fun most of the time. UM. We also have a

1823
01:41:14,680 --> 01:41:18,560
Speaker 1: subreddit which is thinking Sideways. Are thinking Sideways. There's some

1824
01:41:18,640 --> 01:41:20,760
Speaker 1: stuff going on there a little bit. The more that

1825
01:41:20,920 --> 01:41:25,160
Speaker 1: you join, the more that will have happening. You can

1826
01:41:26,040 --> 01:41:30,600
Speaker 1: email us if you have suggestions, comments, you want to

1827
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:33,720
Speaker 1: talk about things, you just want to express your undying love.

1828
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:42,479
Speaker 1: That no, not website, that email address. Take an email

1829
01:41:42,479 --> 01:41:46,080
Speaker 1: address is Thinking Sideways podcast at email dot com. I

1830
01:41:46,120 --> 01:41:48,519
Speaker 1: think that's all of them that, having all been said,

1831
01:41:49,000 --> 01:41:50,479
Speaker 1: we're going to get out of here. We'll talk to

1832
01:41:50,479 --> 01:41:56,719
Speaker 1: you guys next week. So by oh Oh my teen Spirit.

1833
01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:01,320
Speaker 1: No