1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Trillions presents the E t F Story. 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: I'm Joel Webber and I'm the editor of Bloomberg Business Week. 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: In this episode, we're going to focus on a critical 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: part of the e t S rise, which Eric baltun 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: Iss likens to something out of early Silicon Valley. It 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: almost seems like webs and spy at this time. We're 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: like the PC or the mouse went back when Xerox 8 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: had it, where some people just recognize its potential, even 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: of the people who actually own it at the time 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:41,959 Speaker 1: don't see it. This is Dave Noddi. He's the managing 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: director of e t F dot Com. The comparison to 12 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: what happened with the pala Alto Research Center, the Park 13 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: Labs having the the gooey for what became the mac 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: uh and that sort of that idea, whether it's stolen 15 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: or borrowed or whatever, it's very apt for the e 16 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: t F for number of reasons. It's it's apt because 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: you can argue about the intellectual property and is it 18 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: theft or is it you know, people just recognizing greatness 19 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: and building on it. But it's also relevant because it 20 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: was that big a phase shift in how people thought 21 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: about investing naught. It has been around E t F 22 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,919 Speaker 1: pretty much since the beginning, and he says that, yes, 23 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: the Market Break Report is largely credited as the genesis 24 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: of the E t F, as that's where Nate Most 25 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: and Steve Bloom got their idea for spot success has 26 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: a thousand fathers. So everybody tries to claim on a 27 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: given day that they were the father of the E 28 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: t F. It's really whatever unnamed person probably slid that 29 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: into the report. But I will say this that once 30 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: that idea was planted in that you know, sec report, 31 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: the idea was in the air. Bob Tole is president 32 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: of his own E t F consulting company, but was 33 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: with Morgan Stanley in the nineteen eighties, and he says 34 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: nothing is right about there being something in the air 35 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: after the seven Market Break Report was published. He says 36 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: people were trying to come up with something like a 37 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: collective investment, but that treated like a stock. Meanwhile, Leland 38 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: O'Brien and Ruberstein are really trying to redeem themselves in 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: the financial community, and they start working on a product 40 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: called super shares up in Canada, the Canadian Stock Exchanges, 41 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: working on a thing called tips. All of these became 42 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: the precursors to both securities. Remember John O'Brien from episode one, who, 43 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: along with a team at Leland O'Brien Rubinstein, created portfolio insurance, 44 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: but most people in Wall Street didn't understand what that was. 45 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: Some big asset managers did, some big focal dealers did, 46 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: and they realized when the market went down, portfolio insurance 47 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: required selling stock and buying bonds. As Toll says, O'Brien 48 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: and his firm were working to redeem themselves because their 49 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: portfolio insurance was largely credited to stock market crash. O'Brien 50 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: says that what they were working on was the first TTF. Yeah, well, 51 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: I think we were the creator of the t F A. 52 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't called any TF back then. He says. They 53 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,839 Speaker 1: were communicating with folks at the am X at the time, 54 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: and we have a handshake agreement they would not copy 55 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: our products and they would benefit from the trading of it. 56 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: O'Brien says the AMEX didn't hold up their end of 57 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: the deal, so they undercut us, you know, maybe not 58 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: so intentionally, but maybe intentionally, and came out with the 59 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: spies exactly one month and one day after the super 60 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: Trust began trading on November five, and when I called 61 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: him up, they said, well, the handshake agreement is good 62 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: for a month. Meanwhile, up in Canada, a spy is 63 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: waiting for SEC approval. A team from the Toronto Stock 64 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: Exchange managed to get their version of a market basket 65 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: product approved within a year. It was called the Toronto 66 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: Index Participation shares or tips and attract the Toronto Stock 67 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: Exchange Index. And this was an e t F launched. Now, 68 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: if you go around to conferences like I do, there's 69 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: a general view amongst the analysts that Canada came out 70 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: with the first TTF. However, when I talked with people 71 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: from that time, even from Canada, and they admitted that 72 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: what happened was the Toronto Stock Exchange had come down 73 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: and met with AMEX and just I guess they just 74 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 1: you know, we're friends, buddies. They took the spy idea 75 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: and basically red sketched it up there. And the Canadian 76 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: regulatory body is much more liberal than the US. We've 77 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: seen that time and time again. Since then, they were 78 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: in and out of approval process within a year. Dave 79 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: Nodding says, he's not proving to all those details about 80 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: how TIPS came about, but one thing was for sure, Yeah, 81 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: the am X was driving it. And whether or not, 82 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, Nate showed the idea to somebody over a 83 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: T s X or Toronto at that time, um, and 84 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: they stole the idea, launched it there. To some extent. 85 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 1: It's a little bit of I don't know who really cares. 86 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: I mean exposed in retrospect. You can make a good, 87 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: you know, thriller movie out of it. Somebody running the 88 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: briefcase across the tracks kind of thing. We spoke with 89 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: Peter Haynes, who began his career on the Toronto Stock 90 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: Exchange as an intern. I came back were a full 91 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: time in eighty nine and Tips from launching nineties saw 92 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: as part of the launch team for TIPS, so I 93 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: do have that on my resume. TIPS Toronto Index Participation 94 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: Units is what they were called. The symbol was t 95 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: I P listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange on March nine, 96 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: and probably the most interesting factoid of all is that 97 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: there was zero feet. Haynes says there was no management 98 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: expense ratio or mirror at the time, and that the 99 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: exchange ran as a way to give retail investors access 100 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: to the market with just one trading vehicle. The hundred 101 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: and fifty million dollars that were seated at the original 102 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: launch of TIPS all one million institutional investors, so that 103 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: was a bit of a surprise in the shock. Haynes 104 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: says that yes, there were conversations with Nate Most and 105 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: Steven Bloom at the time, but that the most significant 106 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: influence on their product was not the AMMYX the Philadelphia 107 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: Exchange as they were attempting to launch something called SIPs 108 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: cash Index Participation securities and they struggled to get that 109 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: product through the sec And this was in the late 110 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: eighties early nineties that they were trying this, and our 111 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: management at the time had spent some time with the 112 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: Philly guys and said, hey, let's try this in Canada. 113 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: And where we were lucky and I think forward thinking 114 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: in terms of our regulators was the time from the 115 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: time the obviously was approached to the time was approved 116 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: was I believe less than six months. So it was really, 117 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, a lucky thing that 118 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: the Toronto Exchange happened to be the first market in 119 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: the world to launch an e t F. But you know, 120 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Reggie Brown 121 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: of Cantor Fitzgerald, whose nickname Mr ETF, was working at 122 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Stock Exchange when the Philix developed Certificate Index 123 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: Participation Shares or SIPs, and I remember uniquely that they 124 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: were born from the seven Crash and some gurus at 125 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: the Philipstocer Exchange came with an idea based on a report, 126 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: and I do remember they traded briefly on the phile X, 127 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: and in my role on the industry, I always recall, Hey, 128 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: by the way, the Philix had SIPs and unfortunately it 129 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: was overlooked, not well recognized, and they were designed based 130 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: on the report that came out from the government said 131 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: there needed to be a vehicle in order to help 132 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: offset sell in bounce orders in the marketplace, and the 133 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: phil X was ahead of their time, but unfortunately they 134 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: went away. Brown says there was a legal issue with 135 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: McGrath hill, who owned a license name of SP five 136 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: under a standard and colors and McGraw hill sued and 137 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: successfully got in a junction around trademark issues around SIPs 138 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: and it stopped trading because of that. So the reality 139 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: is these other products did come to market before Spy. 140 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: Here's Eric again. So to sum this up, even though 141 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: you may hear that Canada came out with the first TTF, 142 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: that is true, but the idea was in the US. 143 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: I think that's important. So it's a good footnote to 144 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: the story. In the end, the fact that Spy is 145 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: the biggest et F on the planet almost by twofold 146 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: says all you need to know. And the TIPS product 147 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: has been bought and merged and doesn't even have that 148 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: ticker anymore, and that kind of also matters to the story. 149 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: So the fact that Spy outlasted them, outlived them, outgrew them, 150 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: and is the most trade to security four times over 151 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: on the planet as to its so legacy. But some 152 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: have tried to take away from it by saying, well, 153 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: actually it wasn't first, and so I would say, well, 154 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: it depends on how you define it. And I don't 155 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: blame Toronod for doing it. It It was a heads up play. 156 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: But the fact that just because they had to wait 157 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: four years, you can't really blame them for that. They 158 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: would have been out in one if they could. They 159 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: have been at if they could have, But why didn't 160 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: these products that were birth from similar circumstances at the 161 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: exact same time gained the same success well, as Bob 162 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: Tole says, there are a few reasons. Well, first of all, 163 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: you had the most renowned index in the United States, 164 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: next to the dal Jones Industrial thirty right being the 165 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: benchmark for it. It was a full replication, so there 166 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: was no question on the back of the SEC that 167 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: somebody was managing this asset. And you had the publications 168 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: that they required daily of information to provide a level 169 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: of transparency that was nowhere available in the mutual fund industry, 170 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: information including the composition the assets, the holdings, and what 171 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: the waitings were. Also, these similar products hadn't undergone the 172 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: same level of scrutiny with the U. S. Government as 173 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: Spy had because Spy, remember was filed under the forty Act. 174 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: A move toll Fields was worth the weight. Oh absolutely, honestly, 175 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: I do. You could have had a structured note, but 176 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: then you realize you're taking balance sheet risk. At that time, 177 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: especially after the eight seven crash, nobody wanted balance sheet risk. Okay, 178 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: then you say, okay, I'm gonna buy a mutual fund. Well, 179 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: that was what everybody thought was froll to begin with. 180 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: So now you have to have a new structure, so 181 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: you have your choices. Right, you can have a closed 182 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: end fund which has premiument discounts. Right, you could have 183 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 1: a traditional mutual fund, or you could have this new 184 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: animal called at this time an index share. And the 185 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: index share was really I mean, it was an epiphany. 186 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: Dave Not says, a lot of Spy success can be 187 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: attributed to its no frill structure. If you actually look 188 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: at the structure of Spy, it was phenomenally simple. A 189 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: lot of the index participation, securities models and things really 190 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: were almost like versions of structured notes, right. They were complex, 191 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: they had counterparties that people weren't used to dealing with. 192 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: And I think that the genius of the Spy model 193 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: and then later the sort of more traditional for the 194 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: act versions that came after it, where they took really 195 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: simple existing structures and they used those to create what 196 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: they needed to create. Um, you know, they used the 197 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: U I T structure to you know, embed the index 198 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: into the product. That I think was a really critical 199 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: part of getting that approved. But you know, they used 200 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: that structure that existed already that lawyers were comfortable with 201 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: that everybody was comfortable with, and they said, oh great, 202 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 1: that's our investment vehicle. And then they took sort of 203 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: a traditional prime brokerage model of moving large baskets of 204 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 1: securities in and out, and they said, hey, we're just 205 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: going to take what was then the default prime brokerage 206 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: trading model. We're going to use that to do these 207 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: creation redemption baskets. So what they did was take all 208 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: the pieces that already worked and changed as little as 209 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: possible to make something new happen. And now spices footprint 210 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: is enormous as the largest ETF with two dred and 211 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: seventy billion in assets. For a comparison, the second largest 212 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: et F has one billion dollars less than assets than SPY. 213 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: It's really stood the test of time. Here's not again. 214 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: But but in the end, all of these things come 215 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: down to execution. And I think that's actually been the 216 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: story of ets for twenty five years, is it's always 217 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: down to execution. Next time on trains presents how the 218 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: e t F really started to gain steam. It wasn't 219 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: until I was sitting on a trading desk and all 220 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I could like hit a button and 221 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: get a million dollar exposure to the cues. I was 222 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: all in. Thanks for listening to Trillions Presents until next time. 223 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, 224 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, and where else you want to listen. Trillions 225 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: Presents is produced by Jordan Bell, with production help from 226 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: Magnus Hendrickson. Francesco Levy is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.