Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Horde, and thanks for downloading
Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth Podcast. The the Future Sue Bright I
Speaker 1: gotta warshits addition, as I discussed the reigning AFC champs
Speaker 1: with two experts, Pete Prisco, the senior NFL columnist for
Speaker 1: CBS Sports dot Com, and Brandon Thorne, a leading offensive
Speaker 1: line guru and the author of the Trench Warfare newsletter.
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Speaker 1: Pete Prisco from CBS Sports dot Com is one of
Speaker 1: my favorite podcast guests because he's opinionated and knowledgeable. I
Speaker 1: began our latest conversation by bringing up a prediction that
Speaker 1: he made back in April of twenty twenty, shortly after
Speaker 1: the Bengal selected Burrow with the first overall pick in
Speaker 1: the NFL draft. Pe, don't want to start by giving
Speaker 1: you the opportunity to gloat, because when the Bengals drafted
Speaker 1: Joe Burrow, you said he would lead the Bengals to
Speaker 1: a Super Bowl win maybe two. The guys in the
Speaker 1: studio literally laughed at you when you said that. And sure,
Speaker 1: the Bengals didn't win it last year, but they got
Speaker 1: there in Joe's second year coming back from a serious
Speaker 1: knee injury behind a mediocre offensive line. Have the people
Speaker 1: who scoffed apologized. No, they've taken what I said. And
Speaker 1: Brady Quinn, the former NFL quarterback, is one of those guys.
Speaker 1: They've taken what I've said. And they said I said
Speaker 1: they would win two, and that's not what I said.
Speaker 1: I said maybe two, he would win one in the
Speaker 1: next ten years. Well, he's ahead of scheduling in win one.
Speaker 1: But if they could block, he would have won one.
Speaker 1: And so I think the Bengals fans have to be
Speaker 1: thrilled with what they have in Joe Burrow. And I
Speaker 1: go back to a conversation I had with him. I
Speaker 1: tell this story a lot, but I had a conversation
Speaker 1: with him at the Combine that one year. And I
Speaker 1: didn't know Joe Burrow, but at the super Bowl. We
Speaker 1: had two on at the super Bowl and I asked him,
Speaker 1: I said, you know two you lost to you beat them,
Speaker 1: but if you would you, if you came back around,
Speaker 1: would you have beaten him if you were healthy the
Speaker 1: second time? Remember they played LSU the second time. And
Speaker 1: he said, well, I can't say that. I can't say that,
Speaker 1: and I asked Joe Burrow that at the combine and
Speaker 1: he answered the question conn of and he hesitated for second.
Speaker 1: He goes, you know, we did beat him when he
Speaker 1: was there, and I said, okay, there you go. That's
Speaker 1: what I want to hear. And I joke around about
Speaker 1: it all the time. I called fire in the belly.
Speaker 1: Joe Burrow has fire in the belly, and that's what
Speaker 1: you want from a quarterback. And I think that shows
Speaker 1: up on the football field. So obviously you loved him
Speaker 1: coming out of the draft, but now that you've seen
Speaker 1: him for two years in the NFL, is there anything
Speaker 1: about him that's different or even better than you anticipated. No,
Speaker 1: He's about what I thought he would be. I think
Speaker 1: the cool under pressure for a guy so young is
Speaker 1: what really impresses me. I mean, the accuracy is there.
Speaker 1: The arm strength is better that I think than people
Speaker 1: even thought it would be. I think he's calm in
Speaker 1: the pocket, but just when he keeps getting hit, he
Speaker 1: just gets back up and goes. And he took a beating.
Speaker 1: You know that. You see it all the time. That
Speaker 1: line was awful last year and it's amazing what he
Speaker 1: did and what that offense did with that offensive line.
Speaker 1: So I think if anything stands out to me and
Speaker 1: I thought he'd have a chance to be that way,
Speaker 1: it's responding and being so cool under the pressure and everything.
Speaker 1: This is for a guy who's coming off an ACL
Speaker 1: last year, and I admit early in the season he
Speaker 1: looked like he was a little bit leery, but once
Speaker 1: he settled in, he was outstanding. We will obviously cover
Speaker 1: a bunch of Bengals topics here, but before we get
Speaker 1: to more of those, your borough prediction looks very strong,
Speaker 1: but nobody in your position gets them. All right, what
Speaker 1: is your all time worst freezing cold take? If you've
Speaker 1: got one. I thought Christian Ponder would be good. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: I can. It's just like I always tell these guys
Speaker 1: because they bring them up on Twitter, and I'll go
Speaker 1: back and I'll say, Okay, I missed, but the team
Speaker 1: missed too and didn't didn't you know? I thought Christian
Speaker 1: Ponder would be good. I was wrong about that, But
Speaker 1: I can also bounce it out. I was the only
Speaker 1: guy that thought Josh Allen would be good. I was
Speaker 1: the only one. I mean, you couldn't find anybody, and
Speaker 1: I stuck to it through his rookie year, and people
Speaker 1: killed me. They thought it was an aberration. He's gonna
Speaker 1: be bad and he might be the best quarterback in
Speaker 1: the NFL. I mean, he can make a case for
Speaker 1: that right now. So I was right about that one.
Speaker 1: I thought Burrow would be good. I thought Herbert would
Speaker 1: be good. I thought both Herbert and Burrow would be
Speaker 1: significantly better than two and both of them are. So
Speaker 1: I get them wrong. I can't. Christian Ponder was terrible.
Speaker 1: It was a bad prediction. It hurt the Vikings a
Speaker 1: lot more than it hurt you, that's for sure. Our
Speaker 1: guest is Pete Prisco from CBS. The Bengals had an
Speaker 1: obvious weakness and addressed it in free agent see signing
Speaker 1: l Collins, Alex Kappa, and Ted Carriss. How good do
Speaker 1: you think their offensive line is now? Well, I think
Speaker 1: it's significantly better. And look, it was bad. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: I know who Chimadenigy might be a nice guy at all,
Speaker 1: but he really struggled last year. I mean, we I
Speaker 1: do a thing where I give out a spinning top
Speaker 1: every week on our program for the worst offensive lineman
Speaker 1: in the league that week. And he wanted a couple
Speaker 1: of times. I mean, you know, it was bad and
Speaker 1: so and I know he's a tackle who went inside
Speaker 1: and he can now he's just gonna play swing tap
Speaker 1: he's so he's probably gonna be a good swing guy.
Speaker 1: But he shouldn't have been put in that position. So
Speaker 1: I think they will be upgrade. Lyle Collins is really
Speaker 1: a good player. I mean, he's a good player. I
Speaker 1: think you know, Ted Carress, smart guy, gonna be good
Speaker 1: in the middle of that line. You know, Kappa is
Speaker 1: a good player, tough, physical guy. And I think Carmen
Speaker 1: will be better. I mean he kind of threw him
Speaker 1: in there and put him in, put him out, pulled
Speaker 1: him in, pulled him out, and I think that that
Speaker 1: kind of hurt him a little bit, and so I
Speaker 1: think he'll be a better player. So I think the
Speaker 1: line is significantly better than it was a year ago.
Speaker 1: Pete Prisco is our guest. This is the third strade
Speaker 1: year that the Bengals have spent heavily in free agency,
Speaker 1: and now they're building an indoor practice facility. I've seen
Speaker 1: interviews in the past where you have pushed back against
Speaker 1: host who said the Bengals are an incompetent franchise and
Speaker 1: losing franchise, whatever term you want to use. When will
Speaker 1: we see the national narrative change. What's it going to take? Well?
Speaker 1: I think winning a Super Bowl would have helped, but
Speaker 1: I think last year kind of does help. And I
Speaker 1: go back to their scouting department. Okay, it's not a
Speaker 1: big scouting department, but I think the way they do
Speaker 1: it is actually a really good way. There's so much input,
Speaker 1: input and cross you know, referencing everybody that I think,
Speaker 1: you know, Tobin handles it the right way. He allows
Speaker 1: his guys to do their work and he listens to him.
Speaker 1: There are so many teams that have giant scouting departments
Speaker 1: and they send their guys out and they do all
Speaker 1: this work and they're out all week and they get
Speaker 1: all information and they come back and they give them
Speaker 1: reports and then the GM says, no, I don't like
Speaker 1: it that way, Whereas that never works. And I think
Speaker 1: you're seeing that with what they've done. They've drafted very well.
Speaker 1: They've made good decisions in free agency, and I think
Speaker 1: that showed up last year. So I think getting the
Speaker 1: practice facility is big and where are they putting that
Speaker 1: They put in right next to the stadium right there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: more or less across the street going toward the Ohio River. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And again if you win, those are easier to get done,
Speaker 1: no question about that. Pete Prisco is our guest. You
Speaker 1: can follow them on Twitter at Prisco CBS. You recently
Speaker 1: released your list, your annual list of the NFL's top
Speaker 1: one hundred players. The Chargers led the way with nine guys.
Speaker 1: The Rams have three in the top ten, which is
Speaker 1: pretty extraordinary, including the number one guy, Aaron Donald. The
Speaker 1: Bengals had five guys in your top one hundred that
Speaker 1: is tied for the fifth most. I think people might
Speaker 1: be a little bit surprised to learn that your highest
Speaker 1: rated Bengal isn't Joe Burrow, who is high at number
Speaker 1: twenty one, but it's Jamar Chase at number eighteen. Why
Speaker 1: so high for Jamar after one year? I think he's
Speaker 1: one of those receivers going to be special. And you know,
Speaker 1: we see it now where if you get that special guy,
Speaker 1: he kind of elevates the rest of the group and
Speaker 1: makes everybody else better. You know, Justin Jefferson does it
Speaker 1: in Minnesota's a young rising guy. And we see these
Speaker 1: receivers now making their money by the way, tons of them,
Speaker 1: and we saw it, and I think he's in that class.
Speaker 1: I think he is truly going to be a special player,
Speaker 1: and he makes it easier on Joe Burrow. And I
Speaker 1: think the ability to go get the fifty fifty ball,
Speaker 1: the ability to rip off the big play, and I
Speaker 1: think that's why I put him in that class. And again,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of really good receivers and him
Speaker 1: and Justin Jefferson are two of the better young ones.
Speaker 1: Amazing to think on that team that caught passes down
Speaker 1: there from Joe Burrow. Easy to see why he threw
Speaker 1: sixty touchdown passes there when your targets like that. So
Speaker 1: your five Bengals in the top one hundred are Chase Burrow,
Speaker 1: Trey Hendrickson, Joe Mixon, and Jesse Bates. Jesse Bates obviously
Speaker 1: an interesting name right now because of what's happening with
Speaker 1: him in the franchise tag. If you're the Bengals, what
Speaker 1: would you do with Jesse Bates and his contract. I
Speaker 1: think he's I don't think he played that well early
Speaker 1: last season. I think he'd be the first one to
Speaker 1: tell you that he said he got caught up in
Speaker 1: the whole contract situation. This is a big year for him.
Speaker 1: I think you gotta let him play it out. You
Speaker 1: drafted with an eye on him one of maybe both
Speaker 1: those guys, leaving both those safeties, and I think they're
Speaker 1: both if I mistaken, he's in the franchise tag and
Speaker 1: vine Bell he's in his contract year. Yeah, third and
Speaker 1: final year of the free agent deal he signed. So
Speaker 1: you drafted, you know, with an eye on replacing one
Speaker 1: of those guys at least, so I think it'll be
Speaker 1: interesting to see how they play. I'd let it play out.
Speaker 1: I think Jesse Bates is a really good player. But again,
Speaker 1: if you rush to sign guys like that without replacing
Speaker 1: them with a cheaper version, then you get into some
Speaker 1: situations where you have capell and you have a lot
Speaker 1: of good young players that you're eventually gonna have to
Speaker 1: pay big money too. So I'd be careful with that one.
Speaker 1: I like him as a player. Wherever you go, he's
Speaker 1: gonna be a good player, but it might not be
Speaker 1: in Cincinnati. DJ Reader did not make your top one hundred,
Speaker 1: but he did earn honorable mentioned status. Do you consider
Speaker 1: him to be one of the more underrated guys in
Speaker 1: the league. Yes, absolutely, He's been that way for a
Speaker 1: long time. By the way, he's a really good player
Speaker 1: and the guy you want to have inside on your defense.
Speaker 1: I think what he did last year was truly impressive.
Speaker 1: Now you know, the issue is what happens j Hill
Speaker 1: comes back. He played well last year and I think
Speaker 1: he's good next to him. I like the Carter kid
Speaker 1: they drafted out of Florida. I think he's gonna be
Speaker 1: a good player again. Draft to replace, you know, you
Speaker 1: draft to replace, and I think they get that. And
Speaker 1: for all the criticism that they get, I don't think
Speaker 1: it's warranted when you watch what they do and how
Speaker 1: they handle the roster. Zach Carter was their third round pick.
Speaker 1: Dax Hill, the safety at of Michigan, is obviously their first.
Speaker 1: What do you think of Dax Versatility in this league,
Speaker 1: that's what you want. You can play him outside, you
Speaker 1: could play him at slot corner, you could play him
Speaker 1: at safety. And you know, more and more teams are
Speaker 1: going to three safeties, and when you play three safeties,
Speaker 1: you know, even next year, if they're all there, he
Speaker 1: could be the third guy on the field. Or you
Speaker 1: can bring bell down and play him back, and I
Speaker 1: think that's where this league is heading. And tool teams
Speaker 1: start running the football again, you know, that's where we're
Speaker 1: going eventually, if game is and I always thought it
Speaker 1: would be an air game, and it's moved to that.
Speaker 1: I said that twenty five years ago. I said, this
Speaker 1: game is gonna be an air game. You're gonna spread
Speaker 1: people out, You're gonna throw the football. You know, I
Speaker 1: was a big fan of air Correal way back in
Speaker 1: the day. I always love Marino thrown around. I always
Speaker 1: thought you needed to get to that. Well, now we've
Speaker 1: got to that, and the rules mandate that that's an
Speaker 1: advantage for you. But when does a team start going
Speaker 1: back to pounding it when they get when you get little,
Speaker 1: you start pounding him up from because everybody, you know,
Speaker 1: the bigger defensive end is now a defensive tackle and
Speaker 1: you know, and so you put him inside, you're gonna
Speaker 1: run on them now a little bit. So I think
Speaker 1: we might have to see an adjustment eventually, But for now,
Speaker 1: three safeties on the field makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: Belichick does that in the postseason, doesn't he. He pounds
Speaker 1: pea Yeah, you can bet. But again, like I see
Speaker 1: teams that are too reliant on the run that get
Speaker 1: caught in the postseason. Tennessee. Tennessee runs the ball well,
Speaker 1: carries him to the playoffs. Every year. They might win
Speaker 1: a game or two running the ball, but eventually you
Speaker 1: have to be able to throw it. You have to
Speaker 1: be able to get big plays. You know, the Bengals
Speaker 1: will be able to run the ball better this year.
Speaker 1: I think. I think mix is gonna have a big
Speaker 1: year running the ball, and that will take pressure off
Speaker 1: the offensive line and it will make their passing game better.
Speaker 1: Even if the numbers might not be gaudy, they will
Speaker 1: be a better offense this year. A few more questions
Speaker 1: for Pete Prisco, senior NFL columnist for CBS sports dot Com.
Speaker 1: The Ravens are healthy. The Browns traded for Deshaun Watson.
Speaker 1: The Steelers made Kenny Pickett the first quarterback taken in
Speaker 1: this year's draft. How does the AFC North stack up
Speaker 1: in your opinion? About a month away from the start
Speaker 1: of training camp. I think the Bengals are the best team,
Speaker 1: and I would right now on paper that I picked
Speaker 1: him to win the division. I think the Ravens are
Speaker 1: going to be the second best team. They're gonna be back.
Speaker 1: You know, Lamar Jackson missed so much time it was,
Speaker 1: you know, on that on the field and never really
Speaker 1: looked like himself last year. They'll be back. You know.
Speaker 1: What happens with the Watson situation, that's the thing. Is
Speaker 1: he gonna get suspended for a year or whatever? You know,
Speaker 1: we don't know, so I think if I look at it,
Speaker 1: I'd say Bengals won Ravens two, rounds three and then
Speaker 1: the Steelers four. And I like Kenny Pickett. I think
Speaker 1: Kenny Pickett for Bengals fans might, but I want to
Speaker 1: hear this. He has a little bit of Joe Burrow
Speaker 1: in him. You know, he can sling it. He's got
Speaker 1: a little bit of an attitude, and he plays with
Speaker 1: a toughness about him. I think Kenny Pickett for it
Speaker 1: might be one of those guys that the Steelers found
Speaker 1: and he'll end up being a long term quarterback. And
Speaker 1: it could be Pickett, Burrow and Lamar Jackson the division
Speaker 1: for a long time. And if Watson gives you things
Speaker 1: straighten on him too, You're right, Bengals fans don't want
Speaker 1: to hear that. We're hoping that's a prediction along the
Speaker 1: lines of Christian Ponder. Yeah, I bet you do, all right, Pete,
Speaker 1: I got one more question for you. Last week a
Speaker 1: group of loyal Bengals fans held an event called Jungle
Speaker 1: to the Hall Too. They are trying to make the
Speaker 1: case that Anthony Munio should not be the only Bengal
Speaker 1: in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Do you have
Speaker 1: any strong feelings about Ken Anderson, Ken Riley, Willie Anderson
Speaker 1: or any other former Bengals as Hall of Fame candidates.
Speaker 1: Ken Riley should have been in already, and that one's
Speaker 1: amazing to me. Anybody who watched Ken Riley wats to play,
Speaker 1: he should be in the Hall of Fame. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, when you look at Ken Anderson, you could
Speaker 1: make a strong case for Ken Anderson and what he
Speaker 1: did and how he did it. I again, another offense
Speaker 1: I enjoyed really watching, so I could put I would
Speaker 1: have no problem with either one of those. You know,
Speaker 1: and Willie Anderson gets pinged because he played right tackle,
Speaker 1: and that's unfair. Look Tony Vaselli, who I know very well,
Speaker 1: he's going in this year. I can't wait to see
Speaker 1: him go in. Was a great left tackle and people said, oh, well,
Speaker 1: he protected Mark Burnell's left handed quarterback. Well, Anthony Unos
Speaker 1: prod prodected Boomer's blind side. I didn't protect Boomer's blind side.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think you can make a case for
Speaker 1: Willie Anderson and I all three of them strong consideration.
Speaker 1: Maybe two at least of them should get in. And
Speaker 1: if I had a stronger feeling on any of them,
Speaker 1: I probably put Ken Riley in sixty five. I NTS
Speaker 1: is hard to ignore, isn't it. It was a playmaker.
Speaker 1: I mean you could just see me at the long leg.
Speaker 1: He is a playmaker. Yes, I would put and if
Speaker 1: I ranked him, I'd probably go Riley, then Anderson, and
Speaker 1: then Willie Pete. You are one of my favorite podcast guests.
Speaker 1: I always appreciate your time. Keep up the great work,
Speaker 1: and I'll hit you up again in a few months.
Speaker 1: I'll see you a calf in about three weeks. Fantastic,
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. You got it. He came out
Speaker 1: with his NFL power rankings earlier this offseason and had
Speaker 1: the Bengals had number six in the NFL and number
Speaker 1: three in the AFC, behind the Bills and Chiefs. Pete
Speaker 1: wrote the following the off season was about fixing the
Speaker 1: offensive line, and they did it. They also added a
Speaker 1: few nice pieces in the draft on defense. All of
Speaker 1: that will again make this team a contender. The Bengals
Speaker 1: Booth podcast is presented by Ultimate Bengals, the free to
Speaker 1: play fantasy football game. This past season, Ultimate Bengals awarded
Speaker 1: a weekly winner during the course of the year, with tickets,
Speaker 1: autographed merchandise, and money can't buy experiences all up for grabs.
Speaker 1: Find Ultimate Bengals in the App Store and Google play. Back.
Speaker 1: In April, the Bengals announced that they are exercising the
Speaker 1: fifth year option of offensive lineman Jonah Williams, meaning he'll
Speaker 1: be with a team for at least two more years.
Speaker 1: So just how good is the former first round pick
Speaker 1: of Alabama? I recently discussed that and much more with
Speaker 1: Brandon Thorne, the author of the Trench Warfare newsletter, where
Speaker 1: he writes and post videos about offensive and defensive line play.
Speaker 1: Last week, he featured a film study with the Bengals
Speaker 1: left tackle, who is still only twenty four years old. Edon,
Speaker 1: how did your fifty minute film study with Jonah Williams
Speaker 1: come about? I basically just reached out to him via
Speaker 1: direct message, and you know, we we've talked over the years.
Speaker 1: You know, I first met him at the Combine when
Speaker 1: he was there, I was with Duke manny Weather just
Speaker 1: kind of you know, networking around town in Indianapolis, and
Speaker 1: you know, bumped into him. So I got to at least,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of get a face to face meeting
Speaker 1: and just you know, put a name with the face
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And then, uh, you know, I think
Speaker 1: we had already been following each other and may have
Speaker 1: talked you know, online a little bit before that, but
Speaker 1: then after that, you know, I started asking him more
Speaker 1: questions about like things I was seeing on film, stuff
Speaker 1: like that, and then over the years, you know, it's
Speaker 1: just we've just talked more and more. He's just been
Speaker 1: really generous with his time. So I you know, thought
Speaker 1: it would be a great thing to get him on,
Speaker 1: you know, for a film room and actually like do
Speaker 1: a deep dive. So that's what we were able to do.
Speaker 1: So I'm excited about it and hopefully people get a
Speaker 1: lot out of it. I subscribe to your newsletter. I
Speaker 1: watched the piece. It was really informative for me because
Speaker 1: it's technical and I don't speak the language of offensive line.
Speaker 1: At one point, Jonah mentions Newton's second law of motion
Speaker 1: force equals mass times acceleration and explaining one of his techniques.
Speaker 1: What were some of your biggest takeaways first and putting
Speaker 1: together all the video and then and discussing it with Jonah.
Speaker 1: You know, I think you kind of touched on it.
Speaker 1: He's he's pretty, uh, I think, analytical in his approach,
Speaker 1: you know, to the position, and you know he's just
Speaker 1: just the way kind of his mind works. I guess
Speaker 1: he could really break it down in a lot of detail,
Speaker 1: you know, whereas there's other guys that I've talked to,
Speaker 1: you know, on the offensive and defensive line where they
Speaker 1: basically just tell me they go out and they play football,
Speaker 1: you know, they they just react to what they see
Speaker 1: and just be an athlete or you know, just and
Speaker 1: some guys can play in the NFL at a very
Speaker 1: high level with that mindset, and other guys you know,
Speaker 1: think about it. I don't know about more, but definitely differently.
Speaker 1: So Yeah, he's just one of those guys where a
Speaker 1: great guest to have on a film room, you know,
Speaker 1: for people who love offensive line, because you know, he'll
Speaker 1: talk about a lot of different techniques and details, you know,
Speaker 1: and footwork and angles and all kinds of stuff. So
Speaker 1: those are the kind of guests that I love having
Speaker 1: on because I could kind of nerd out a little
Speaker 1: bit with him, you know, on offensive line and it's great,
Speaker 1: so that it's kind of like opened my eyes a
Speaker 1: little bit to that being his style, and also confirmed
Speaker 1: it a little bit as well, because you know, coming
Speaker 1: out of Alabama, I remember I think Dane Brugler and
Speaker 1: his draft guide had something about, you know, the I
Speaker 1: think the Alabama coaches called him the intellectual or something
Speaker 1: like that, you know, and he largely because of how
Speaker 1: meticulous he was and detailed about his film study in college,
Speaker 1: so you know, it just came across, you know, I
Speaker 1: think in the interview too as well, so that was cool.
Speaker 1: And then you know, more technical stuff, just like how
Speaker 1: he dealt with the cross shop technique that pass rushers
Speaker 1: in the NFL use right now maybe more than any
Speaker 1: other move in the NFL. His ways of going about,
Speaker 1: you know, countering what they're trying to do to him.
Speaker 1: That's kind of one of the main topics I wanted
Speaker 1: to touch on for the Film room because we had
Speaker 1: talked about that me and him in the past, and
Speaker 1: I've gotten some breakdowns from him that were amazing, and
Speaker 1: I would just thought I would love to get him,
Speaker 1: give him a little bit more of a platform to
Speaker 1: kind of talk about it, you know. So yeah, it was,
Speaker 1: it was cool, it was It's pretty enlightening and uh yeah,
Speaker 1: just a lot of fun. I think something that was
Speaker 1: also informative for me is that you didn't put together
Speaker 1: fifty minutes of clips of him dominating. There are some
Speaker 1: where he dominates, but others where the guy kind of
Speaker 1: hasn't beat many recovers and maybe kind of saves the
Speaker 1: day at the last second. Did you find that to
Speaker 1: be especially helpful and evaluating his play. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: when I do my own evaluations, obviously, I watched the
Speaker 1: whole entire games for college guys, pro guys, and all
Speaker 1: see the negatives. I mean, when you do a film room,
Speaker 1: you want to focus on the positives. Obviously. I'm not
Speaker 1: there to present an evaluation to people. Necessarily, I'm there
Speaker 1: to present what this guy does well, how he wins,
Speaker 1: and then just talk football in a fun way. So
Speaker 1: not a lot of guys like to talk about their
Speaker 1: losses and they can't do it in a fun way obviously,
Speaker 1: so you but at the same time, you do want
Speaker 1: to kind of give of, you know, as well rounded
Speaker 1: of a view as possible without doing a full evaluation
Speaker 1: of the guy on a film room. So I do
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, put a couple of those in
Speaker 1: there and hope it goes well, you know, um, because
Speaker 1: you know they're not seeing the video prior. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, just some stuff that I think. I specifically
Speaker 1: look for losses that I think could be good teaching
Speaker 1: opportunities because I know my audience largely consists of players
Speaker 1: and coaches, so I want them to see or to hear,
Speaker 1: you know, and see how a pro handles losses, how
Speaker 1: you know, get a little insight into the perspective, how
Speaker 1: they handle it mentally, and then you know ways that
Speaker 1: they fix it, uh, you know, and just strategies and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. So that's what I did with Reshawn
Speaker 1: Slater as well. When I did his film room like
Speaker 1: a month or two ago. I put in you know,
Speaker 1: more of his losses than I did for Jonah and
Speaker 1: the same kind of deal. You know. It was just
Speaker 1: really cool to you know, hear them talk because I
Speaker 1: think they know the way I'm going about it is,
Speaker 1: you know, with the right intent. You know, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to make them look bad. I'm trying to, you know,
Speaker 1: present those kind of teaching opportunities to help guys learn
Speaker 1: who are playing and coaching the position. So I think
Speaker 1: they're more receptive to that because of it. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was good to get those in there. And I
Speaker 1: feel like I always learned a lot in those situations,
Speaker 1: you know, So I'm thankful that guys are open to
Speaker 1: talking about it. Offensive and defensive line analyst Brandon Thorne
Speaker 1: is our guest. As Jonah watched with you, he noted
Speaker 1: that he could really see the progression in his own
Speaker 1: play from Week two against the Bears to playoff clips
Speaker 1: against the Raiders. How good is he now? And how
Speaker 1: good do you think he can be? This was his
Speaker 1: first full season, you know, as a pro. You know,
Speaker 1: he missed a whole rookie year, and then you know
Speaker 1: the ten games, and now you know he played pretty
Speaker 1: much the whole year. One p the snaps, he played
Speaker 1: all that. So I think that's important kind of to
Speaker 1: point out, like a backdrop to set up the answer
Speaker 1: to the question, because I do think he still can
Speaker 1: get better. But where he is right now, I see
Speaker 1: him as definitely a solid, you know, average left tackle.
Speaker 1: But I lean and I don't know if this is
Speaker 1: biased or not, but you know, when I'm stacking, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to write an article before the season starts
Speaker 1: where I actually stack you know, the positions left tackle
Speaker 1: through right tackle and everything in between, like I did
Speaker 1: last year. So I'll have a more of a specific
Speaker 1: answer here and probably the next month for people. But
Speaker 1: I would definitely say he's in the top half top
Speaker 1: sixteen left tackles in the league. And I think he's
Speaker 1: probably you know, top twelve, maybe somewhere in there maybe,
Speaker 1: I mean that's probably you know, in that range. I think,
Speaker 1: so closer to above average is probably how I look
Speaker 1: at him. And I think that he could still become
Speaker 1: very good, you know, and be a top ten left tackle.
Speaker 1: Uh you know, I think he has that ability, So yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, not a crazy high ceiling. I don't ever
Speaker 1: see him being necessarily a top five left tackle. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's impossible, but I would be more comfortable
Speaker 1: betting on like a top ten left tackle, and I
Speaker 1: think I think it's really just a matter of time.
Speaker 1: I mean, if he could play, you know, another full season,
Speaker 1: I think we'll see you know a lot of what
Speaker 1: we saw last year and you know, some minor improvements,
Speaker 1: which is really what is needed. Um you know, nothing
Speaker 1: drastic needs to improve with him. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: just it's really just staying healthy at this point and
Speaker 1: stacking years, because man, when you go back and watch
Speaker 1: his tape, you know, he's putting a lot of difficult situations. Obviously,
Speaker 1: the team, the you know, the the offensive game plans
Speaker 1: and stuff like that had to help out the right
Speaker 1: side a lot more than the left. So he's put
Speaker 1: on islands quite a bit. And you know, obviously in
Speaker 1: that division there's some outstanding pass rushers. You know, the
Speaker 1: amount of times that he's playing Miles Garrett one on
Speaker 1: one is is pretty amazing. And I think he did
Speaker 1: really well, you know, not perfect. Obviously, no tackle in
Speaker 1: the league is going to be perfect against Miles Garrett
Speaker 1: that often, you know, with that many reps against him,
Speaker 1: but man, he did a lot of really good things
Speaker 1: against Miles Garrett last year and the prior year as well. Um,
Speaker 1: So he has that ability to go out and play
Speaker 1: on an island against elite level competition and do well.
Speaker 1: And I think that's an incredibly important thing for a
Speaker 1: left tackle. Um now at this point, it's about refining
Speaker 1: little things with his technique and being more consistent so
Speaker 1: he can be even better because it you know, there
Speaker 1: is room for improvement. But but he has that ability though,
Speaker 1: and you know that's that's huge for a left tackle.
Speaker 1: And in the run game, I think he's definitely good,
Speaker 1: you know, above average right now. He always has been
Speaker 1: since Alabama. He's a well round player. So that's what
Speaker 1: I've always liked about him coming out and everything. He's
Speaker 1: well rounded. So yeah, I would say, you know, average
Speaker 1: to above average right now. And you know climbing. Brandon
Speaker 1: Thorn is our guest. He is the author of the
Speaker 1: Trench Warfare newsletter. We did a segment for this podcast
Speaker 1: prior to the start of free agency, and the Bengals
Speaker 1: went out and spent heavily. I'm going to give you
Speaker 1: the three guys that they signed and ask you to
Speaker 1: give some observations about each of the three. So right
Speaker 1: tackle l Collins, he'll be twenty nine this month, six
Speaker 1: years of NFL experience. I'm quitting previous time with offensive
Speaker 1: line coach Frank Pollock. Right guard Alex Kappa, he's twenty seven,
Speaker 1: four years in Tampa Bay as starter on a Super
Speaker 1: Bowl team. And center Ted Carris, he's twenty nine, six
Speaker 1: years in the NFL, started the last three years with
Speaker 1: the Patriots and the Dolphins. Your thoughts on the trio
Speaker 1: of Collins, Kappa and Carris and the impact they could have.
Speaker 1: I like this trio. I think the right side of
Speaker 1: this offensive line is going to be dramatically better than
Speaker 1: last year. You know, I don't think it would have
Speaker 1: been too difficult to be better than last year, but
Speaker 1: this is a pretty significant climb. I think that people
Speaker 1: should expect from the right side, you know, arguably the
Speaker 1: worst right side in the league last year at different times,
Speaker 1: you know, if Reef wasn't out there, especially, but man,
Speaker 1: I mean Alex Kappa and Leo Collins. I think that's
Speaker 1: going to be a really good duel on the right side.
Speaker 1: Leo Collins is I think, you know, when healthy, you know,
Speaker 1: which is another question, you know, but if he's healthy,
Speaker 1: you're looking at, you know, a borderline top five right
Speaker 1: tackle in the league, certainly a top five or three
Speaker 1: run blocking right tackle. He's just a total stud as
Speaker 1: a run blocker and pass protection. There's just not a
Speaker 1: lot of tackles in the league as big and as
Speaker 1: strong as he is and is physical, so he brings
Speaker 1: that element to the offense that he's just going to
Speaker 1: train informed the way it looks, you know when you're
Speaker 1: watching them play. He's just going to bring kind of
Speaker 1: a tone setting presence to the to the line. That's
Speaker 1: going to be really cool to see Um at a
Speaker 1: position that you know has been a major concern for
Speaker 1: the team. So that one is my favorite signing, you know,
Speaker 1: and I think most people you know think he's probably
Speaker 1: the best signing UM and uh Kappa you know, has
Speaker 1: been solid for a while now, and he's gotten better
Speaker 1: every year he's been in the league. Almost He's kind
Speaker 1: of like Jonah in some ways where maybe not like
Speaker 1: the most physically gifted guy in terms of like you know, height, weight, length,
Speaker 1: athletic ability, you know, more of kind of like at
Speaker 1: that baseline level that you need. But man, really crafty,
Speaker 1: technically sound, tough, you know. So he's going to be
Speaker 1: a steady presence more than anything, I think. And then
Speaker 1: Carriss would be the third guy UM that I would rank,
Speaker 1: you know, after those two. Carriss is at this point
Speaker 1: to me a guy who could potentially be steady, but
Speaker 1: to me is more so like a really high end swing,
Speaker 1: backup interior guy who could back up both guard spots
Speaker 1: and center. He could start for you and you'll be fine.
Speaker 1: There's gonna be matchups that are going to be an issue,
Speaker 1: you know, if he's isolated against high level interior pass
Speaker 1: rushers and different you know, things like that. But you
Speaker 1: know you can get by with him, you know, So
Speaker 1: that that's how I view him. You know, ideally you
Speaker 1: would love to see you know, that position may be
Speaker 1: upgraded in the next year or two, but hey, you know,
Speaker 1: for twenty twenty two, with what you have around him
Speaker 1: and everything, I think that it'll be just fine. But
Speaker 1: like I said, there's gonna be some isolated situations where
Speaker 1: he might be able to be exposed a little bit
Speaker 1: more than the other guys. So, but yeah, he brings
Speaker 1: a lot, like off the field, a lot of the
Speaker 1: intangible type stuff that is hard to quantify that will
Speaker 1: be valuable for the actual offensive line room with his
Speaker 1: experience and you know, smarts and stuff like that. So
Speaker 1: he's going to bring value that we're not going to
Speaker 1: be able to necessarily measure either, So I think that's
Speaker 1: part of his appeal. But yeah, that's kind of how
Speaker 1: I feel about those guys. Left guard is still up
Speaker 1: for grabs. Jackson Carmen, came Identagy, rookie, Cordell Volson, perhaps
Speaker 1: others will be in the mix for that position. Do
Speaker 1: you think that the Bengals will get competent play out
Speaker 1: of one of those guys. I mean, I think Jackson
Speaker 1: Carmen could still be a good player. I've said this
Speaker 1: on other podcasts, and you know, if you read my
Speaker 1: evaluation of him coming out of Clemson, you probably get
Speaker 1: the same idea. You know, I think coming out his
Speaker 1: technique was very inconsistent. He played left tackle, you know,
Speaker 1: that's evaluated him a left tackle, but I projected him
Speaker 1: as a guard. And yeah, I mean I think his
Speaker 1: his use of hands are going to have to get better.
Speaker 1: He's going to have to clean that up and not
Speaker 1: you know, let guys get underneath and inside of him
Speaker 1: as often as they do play with the better leverage,
Speaker 1: you know, more better, just better overall technique. But in
Speaker 1: terms of like physical gifts, size, athletic ability, he's very physical, competitive,
Speaker 1: toughness I think is good. Like, he has a lot
Speaker 1: of elements that you can't teach that are valuable that
Speaker 1: suggests that he can develop into a quality, quality starting
Speaker 1: guard more so than anybody else I see on the
Speaker 1: roster in terms of like physical traits. So for that
Speaker 1: reason and due to his age, being as young as
Speaker 1: he is, that's the guy that I would hope wins
Speaker 1: the job. And I would expect him to win the job,
Speaker 1: assuming off the field and you know, work ethic stuff
Speaker 1: and all that stuff checks out and he's you know,
Speaker 1: dialed in and all that kind of stuff. Mentally, he
Speaker 1: to me is the guy that you want to win
Speaker 1: this job because his upside is deaf only the highest um.
Speaker 1: And it's I think a really nice duo to be
Speaker 1: in between and Jonah and Kerass, you know um just
Speaker 1: kind of the way they play, uh and and everything.
Speaker 1: I just think that that that could really help him,
Speaker 1: you know, having those two guys who are you know,
Speaker 1: more technically sound, you know, more more steady, That that
Speaker 1: can really help a young guy, you know, to kind
Speaker 1: of sandwich him in between two guys like that. So
Speaker 1: I like, I mean, I feel like the floor is
Speaker 1: his now you know like he's in a good position
Speaker 1: to succeed. He has a good coach. You know, he's
Speaker 1: in between two good players or two you know, quality
Speaker 1: players one good player, I would say, you know, an
Speaker 1: a quality player, So like, yeah, that would be my
Speaker 1: pick there um, And I'm excited to see what happens,
Speaker 1: you know, because he has a lot of talent. Man,
Speaker 1: it's just if if he could put it together now
Speaker 1: at this point, Brandon Thorn is our guest. You can
Speaker 1: follow him on Twitter at Brandon Thorne NFL. We hear
Speaker 1: which is say that offensive lineman make a big jump
Speaker 1: from year one to year two. The PFF grades don't
Speaker 1: necessarily show that. Where do you fall on that idea
Speaker 1: that from year one to year two is a big
Speaker 1: jump for offensive lineman. You know, I haven't done a
Speaker 1: league wide study on that, so I don't know that
Speaker 1: I have, you know, a great opinion on it. But
Speaker 1: I think even if I did do like a study
Speaker 1: on that, I think it really comes down to a
Speaker 1: case by case basis. I mean, you might be able
Speaker 1: to identify some trends if you do the study, but
Speaker 1: it really is a case by case basis. You have
Speaker 1: to look at who the player. Is his situation? Does
Speaker 1: he have the same offensive line coach from year one
Speaker 1: to year two? Is he playing in the same offensive
Speaker 1: scheme year one to year two? Is he playing next
Speaker 1: to different guys year one to year two? What kind
Speaker 1: of injury did he have? Did he end his first
Speaker 1: year with an injury? Did he end his first year
Speaker 1: on a high note? You know, in the list goes
Speaker 1: on of all this context that you just don't have. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I don't want to cop out
Speaker 1: the answer, but I feel like that's my answer. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a case by case basis. Really final question for
Speaker 1: Brandon Thorne. You did a lengthy review of the draft
Speaker 1: in your Trench Warfare newsletter, and under the category of
Speaker 1: top ten biggest values, you listed Ben Brown, an interior
Speaker 1: offensive lineman, out of all miss that the Bengals didn't draft,
Speaker 1: they signed him as an undrafted free agent. What do
Speaker 1: you think of Ben Bryant? Yeah, he was a guy
Speaker 1: that I watched late in the process for Bleacher Report.
Speaker 1: You know, he was one of the last guys after
Speaker 1: I was through. You know, I don't remember how many
Speaker 1: I watched sixty guys or whatever. On the offensive line.
Speaker 1: He was one of the last guys. But he struck
Speaker 1: me as a guy who could come in, earn a
Speaker 1: role on an offensive line as a backup early and
Speaker 1: provide value in multiple positions center and guard. And you
Speaker 1: know that's primary early due to his size. Just he
Speaker 1: plays with a very wide basse, strong base, so balance
Speaker 1: as well, and he's strong. I think his strength is solid,
Speaker 1: and he's very physical, very experienced and inside zone and
Speaker 1: gap concepts in the run game, which translates to most
Speaker 1: schemes in the NFL. He definitely needs to kind of
Speaker 1: clean up, you know, his play speed and body control,
Speaker 1: to me were kind of some of the issues that
Speaker 1: I saw on tape, so and and that kind of
Speaker 1: play that kind of shows themselves in different ways. You know.
Speaker 1: I think processing skills can get a little cleaner, reading
Speaker 1: things out quicker, you know, things that are technically coachable
Speaker 1: not always fixed. But for the most part, I thought
Speaker 1: that there was a foundation in place here with him
Speaker 1: with his size, arm length is very good as well,
Speaker 1: you know, and strength that he could earn a role.
Speaker 1: So I had a six round great on him. You know,
Speaker 1: for me, that's a backup guy who's draftable at least,
Speaker 1: so when you guys signed him in the undrafted pool.
Speaker 1: I thought that was good value because to me, you know,
Speaker 1: he was like a late day three kind of guy. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's one of those guys I would loved to have gotten,
Speaker 1: you know, where the Bengals did and just bring him in.
Speaker 1: You know, see how he absorbs the playbook. You know,
Speaker 1: you know, he could play multiple positions. He has some
Speaker 1: good size, physicality, some pretty good technique in the run game. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he's a guy who would have liked to take
Speaker 1: a swing on and I'm glad the Bengals did. I
Speaker 1: think that he has a shot to you know, practice squad.
Speaker 1: You know maybe or you know one of the maybe
Speaker 1: that seventh offensive line spot potentially, but you know, just
Speaker 1: one of those guys that you could develop and you
Speaker 1: might have something down the road. We will definitely have
Speaker 1: a close eye on him in a training camp. Looking
Speaker 1: forward to seeing all of these guys. And again, I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed the film study with Jonah Williams. I can't
Speaker 1: wait to discuss it with Jonah when I see him
Speaker 1: in late July at training camp. As I mentioned, I
Speaker 1: started subscribing to the Trench Warfare newsletter a little while
Speaker 1: ago It's great content for those of us who are
Speaker 1: always interested in learning more about offensive and defensive line play.
Speaker 1: Tell folks how they can subscribe and the types of
Speaker 1: things they get in the Trench Warfare newsletter. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: people can go to Trench Warfare dot substack dot com
Speaker 1: and I mean you could just pretty much subscribe there.
Speaker 1: You know, you enter your email address in and there's
Speaker 1: different options that you can select, and I try and
Speaker 1: get an article out every week and that's kind of
Speaker 1: the goal. So, you know, the last few weeks was
Speaker 1: a little up and down because of kind of the
Speaker 1: time of the year, but throughout the season, I'm pretty
Speaker 1: consistent with that, and you know, had the Jonah Film Room.
Speaker 1: I have another very exciting film room for me personally
Speaker 1: coming out Monday, and that's with Raiders left tackle, former
Speaker 1: left tackle Donald Penn and former left guard Collecchio Smile
Speaker 1: or Ko as a lot of people know them. Those
Speaker 1: two guys. That twenty sixteen Raiders team offensive line was
Speaker 1: one of the best offensive lines I've watched since twenty thirteen,
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, maybe the most physical offensive line I've ever seen,
Speaker 1: and those two guys were a big part of it.
Speaker 1: So I had them both on for a film room
Speaker 1: that's about an hour long, and we just watched tape
Speaker 1: from twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen because they were together
Speaker 1: then as well. They both made Pro Bowls those years.
Speaker 1: Ko was a first team All Pro. So I feel
Speaker 1: like having those guys on to it was really cool
Speaker 1: because they kind of got to reunite, which was awesome.
Speaker 1: So it was a lot of fun. But then also
Speaker 1: just the insight from those two was incredible. They picked
Speaker 1: up right away, they knew details from the games, they
Speaker 1: knew calls, they knew. It was incredible to listen to
Speaker 1: them talk. So I think people who want to learn
Speaker 1: more players, coaches as well all that are going to
Speaker 1: get a lot out of that. So film rooms I
Speaker 1: love doing those, and then in season I do a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of different stuff. Film rooms a grade every
Speaker 1: sack in the NFL and assign a grade to it,
Speaker 1: a bunch of different cool stuff, try to break down
Speaker 1: techniques and Yeah, so if you want to learn more
Speaker 1: about offensive defensive line, I think it's a good resource.
Speaker 1: It definitely is. I'm enjoying it immensely and I always
Speaker 1: appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on branded Absolutely thanks
Speaker 1: for having me. That's going to do it for this
Speaker 1: episode of The Bengals Booth Podcast, presented by Ultimate Bengals.
Speaker 1: Download Ultimate Bengals ahead of the twenty twenty two season.
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Speaker 1: more Bengals fans find us. I'm Dan Horde and thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to The Bengals Booth Podcast. St