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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds and Democrats win landslide in safe Iowa

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Speaker 1: State House seat. We have such a great show for

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Speaker 1: you today. The weeknight host Simone Sanders Towns and stops

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Speaker 1: by to talk to us about Trump's first one hundred

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Speaker 1: days of lies. Then we will talk to Personhood author

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Speaker 1: Mary Ziegler about her amazing new book on reproductive rights.

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Speaker 1: But first the news Somali.

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Speaker 2: We throughout our time mister Trump being in our lives,

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Speaker 2: have seen him do a lot of wacky interviews.

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Speaker 1: I love when you call him mister Trump.

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Speaker 2: I do it with the utmost contempt. Anyway, last night,

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Speaker 2: though he decided to go I want to say the

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Speaker 2: full Trump laid down the Trump card, just really leaded

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Speaker 2: into all his worst instincts and uh, why don't I

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Speaker 2: play you what many people are saying?

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Speaker 1: To use his own words, many, many, many.

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Speaker 2: One of his worst moments of an interview, which is

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Speaker 2: really really saying something a member of the gang.

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Speaker 3: And then they look at on his stoles.

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Speaker 4: He had then.

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Speaker 3: He had on his he had some tattoos that are

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Speaker 3: interpreted that way.

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Speaker 4: But let's move on.

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, I will tear it.

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Speaker 4: He did not have the letter M S one.

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Speaker 3: This is MS one.

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Speaker 4: That was photoshop. Uh so let me do this.

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Speaker 1: Photoshops had that.

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Speaker 4: Hey, they're giving you the big break of a lifetime.

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Speaker 4: You know you're joined the interview.

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Speaker 3: I picked you because, frankly, I never heard of the

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Speaker 3: invidenia to you, and begin of being very nice, he had.

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Speaker 4: Thirteen agree to disagree. I'll move on to something else.

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Speaker 4: Do you want to show you the picture? I saw

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Speaker 4: the picture.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've dealt with less belligerent people after doing forty

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Speaker 2: fireball shots.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I picked you even though I had

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Speaker 1: never heard of you.

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Speaker 4: What of the old type of grades.

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Speaker 1: I love that so much. What he was like, I

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Speaker 1: picked you. I never heard of you, but I picked you.

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Speaker 4: I have a feeling you said that on a lot

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Speaker 4: of first dates.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I love it so much. Look, we

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Speaker 1: have an administration where not just one person has a

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Speaker 1: warm in his brain. I don't know what to tell you.

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Speaker 1: I picked you a major career. Again, I've said this before,

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Speaker 1: I will say it again. Trump is doing a lot

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Speaker 1: of media. This is the right thing to do if

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Speaker 1: Democrats ever get back in power. We need Democrats to

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Speaker 1: do a lot of media. I'm sorry to tell everyone

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Speaker 1: here that is all I have, but I am correct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, so molly, mister Trump also received.

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Speaker 1: Some very when you call him, mister Trump.

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Speaker 2: Go on, yes, very very very very bad economic news today.

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Speaker 2: As you turned to me, you said that we are

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Speaker 2: now in a recession. Well, he had a tweet that

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Speaker 2: really really was chef's kiss.

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Speaker 1: This is Biden's stock market, not Trump's. I didn't take

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Speaker 1: over until January twentieth. By the way, let me just

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Speaker 1: tell you what day it is for those keeping track

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Speaker 1: at home. It is April thirtieth. Okay, So he has

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Speaker 1: been president for a little more than one hundred days,

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Speaker 1: which is a little more than three months. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: just want to point this out. And then, by the way,

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Speaker 1: this is I think really important. Tariffs will start kicking in.

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Speaker 1: Tariffs are kicking in. That's why the economy is shrinking,

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Speaker 1: is because tariffs are making things more expensive and they're

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Speaker 1: keeping people from keeping businesses from expanding. So tariffs are

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Speaker 1: kicking in. They won't start kicking in. They are kicking in,

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Speaker 1: and companies are starting to move into the US and

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Speaker 1: record numbers. Now that I think is probably just made up.

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Speaker 1: Our country will boom, but we have to get rid

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Speaker 1: of Biden's overhang. Okay, this will take a while. Has

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with tariffs. Again, you can put it

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Speaker 1: in all caps. But it's not right. He left us

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Speaker 1: with bad numbers. That's not true. We know that the

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Speaker 1: Biden economy was the envy of the world, but when

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Speaker 1: the boom begins, it will be like no other. Be

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Speaker 1: patient explanation point. Here's the thing. I just want to

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Speaker 1: say this really important stuff here. Tariffs are bad. Trump

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Speaker 1: things are good. They are keeping a lot of businesses

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Speaker 1: from spending money. But also it's not just the tariffs,

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Speaker 1: it's the instability. Trump is always back and forth. You know,

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Speaker 1: the tariffs are on, they're off, they're this, they're that,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of worry. If you're going to

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Speaker 1: build a factory, say you're a pants manufacturer. You manufacture

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Speaker 1: in China. You decide to build a factory in the

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Speaker 1: United States because you're worried about tariff, and you're worried

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Speaker 1: about the one hundred and fifty percent tariff on Chinese manufacturing.

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Speaker 1: So you decide to build a factory in Iowa. Now,

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Speaker 1: the way these tariffs work, some of the tariffs actually

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Speaker 1: punish you for bringing in things that are made in

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Speaker 1: other countries to manufacture. So even if you're manufacturing, you're

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Speaker 1: still paying China tariffs. I mean, they're just endless sort

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Speaker 1: of unforeseen consequences to these TIFFs because they're radical, radical

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Speaker 1: departures in the way America does business. And look, this

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Speaker 1: is all this Trump plan to reshore manufacturing, and that

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Speaker 1: is a long term play restoring manufacturing, and there is

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Speaker 1: really no handbook for it, and it would take a

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Speaker 1: long time. And so this is why this is so stupid.

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Speaker 1: And it looks like Trump is really dug in on

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Speaker 1: the terror and we're going to feel a lot more

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Speaker 1: economic pain. Also, remember tariffs were responsible for smooth Hollie,

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we went into the Great Depression.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's no world in which tips are good

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Speaker 1: for the stock market.

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Speaker 2: I am with you, you know what, there is also

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Speaker 2: no good for the country or anyone's confidence. Psychotic press conferences.

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Speaker 1: I consider them to be like the North Korea, like

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Speaker 1: a little bit of North Korea.

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Speaker 2: I think this really was the week that we got

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Speaker 2: the most Korean culture since k pop landed on our shores,

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Speaker 2: right exactly, And yes, people.

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Speaker 4: I know that's South Korea, Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, let me pull you some clips from this absolutely

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Speaker 2: bonkers press conference, and I'm going to skip the one

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Speaker 2: where RFK says, the more four eyed you have, the

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Speaker 2: stupider you get, not doing business.

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Speaker 3: They made a trillion dollars when you good buying a

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Speaker 3: treation dollars, even a Tritian one. I'm selling us stuff,

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Speaker 3: much of it we don't need, you know. Somebody said,

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Speaker 3: all the sholves that are going to be opened, well

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Speaker 3: maybe the children will have two dollars instead of thirty dollars,

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Speaker 3: you know, and maybe the two dolls will cost a

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Speaker 3: couple of months more than they would normally. But we're

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Speaker 3: not talking about something that we have to go out

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Speaker 3: of our way.

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Speaker 4: They have ships that.

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Speaker 3: Are loaded up with stuff, much of which not all

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Speaker 3: of it, but much of which we don't need.

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Speaker 1: At Donald Trump, to end conspicuous consumption, congratulations, Americans are

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Speaker 1: buying too much stuff. Let's stop, and this is why

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Speaker 1: our economy is shrinking. I don't think Trump understands that

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Speaker 1: consumer spending will mean less consumer spending which will mean

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Speaker 1: an economy the drinks, which means that it's not just

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Speaker 1: about having two dollars or five dollars, it's about having

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Speaker 1: twenty jobs or four jobs. And Donald Trump again, it's like,

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Speaker 1: what is so amazing about Trump and this has been

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Speaker 1: true for him this entire time, is that he never

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Speaker 1: is able to sink through what things will mean in

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Speaker 1: the unintended consequences of things, and so you find him

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Speaker 1: thinking it's about dolls and not that you know, consumer

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Speaker 1: spending drives the economy and is an engine of the economy.

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Speaker 1: And again this is their argument with immigration, right, you

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Speaker 1: have a tight labor market to try to get people

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Speaker 1: to have babies. They don't want to have babies, and

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Speaker 1: you're kicking out immigrants, like, here's the deal man, you

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Speaker 1: got to get those people from somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the craziness doesn't stop. Here's Attorney General Pam Bondi.

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Speaker 1: We've recinded death penalty.

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Speaker 5: We are now seeking the death penalty on cases. I'm

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Speaker 5: signing dug warrance. We are going after tear, we are

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Speaker 5: going after arsonist, whether you're burning teslas. We will be

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Speaker 5: arrested nine people so far in seven jurisdictions, no negotiations,

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Speaker 5: twenty years.

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Speaker 4: And she's citing death warrants.

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Speaker 1: For people burning Tesla's. That seems like a mistake.

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Speaker 2: I think she kind of meant to say that it's

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Speaker 2: for the people doing fens at all, but it really

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Speaker 2: read that way, and I hope it's not the case.

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Speaker 1: Personally, I don't think it's good to kill people, especially

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Speaker 1: for cars, for burning cars. But you know, the thing

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Speaker 1: about Tesla that's so interesting, besides the fact that this

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Speaker 1: administration is completely unhinged, is that you saw last week

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk hit an arnings call seventy one percent drop

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Speaker 1: in Tesla's earnings. Elon said that, actually, Tesla's not the

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Speaker 1: play anymore. It's these autonomous driving cars. Waimo is eating

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Speaker 1: his lunch with the autonomous cars, right, so it's not

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Speaker 1: going to be autonomous cars. So much of Elon's empires

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Speaker 1: based on SpaceX and the satellites and the communication arm

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Speaker 1: of it. Elon has really backed himself into a corner here,

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Speaker 1: and his embrace of MAGA has really hurt his companies.

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Speaker 1: And I'll be curious, you know, he said he would

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Speaker 1: step back. I don't believe anything that anyone says, especially

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Speaker 1: out of the admin. But it'll be interesting to see

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Speaker 1: if he hits a moment work shareholders are like, this

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Speaker 1: is enough. Simone Sanders. Townsend is the co host of

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Speaker 1: the Weeknight along with Michael Steele and Alicia Menendez. Eric

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Speaker 1: Monday is from seven to nine pm Tuesdays through Fridays

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Speaker 1: seven to eight Eastern on MSNBC and in Premiers Monday,

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Speaker 1: May fifth. Hi, I'm so excited to have you. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Fast Politics, Samon.

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Speaker 5: I'm happy to be here at Fast Politics. Mollie.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about where we are right now. One hundred

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Speaker 1: little more than one hundred days. Oh, Mollie, you were

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Speaker 1: listening to Trump's pressor he has now crashed the economy.

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Speaker 1: How edgedy is he about having crashed the economy?

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Speaker 5: You know, don't believe he crashed the economy. I say

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Speaker 5: it was a press conference. He was taking questions at

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Speaker 5: the cabinet meeting, which is something you know usually he

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Speaker 5: has a lot of cadem meetings where he likes to

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Speaker 5: come in and pray and take questions. I'm wondering how

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Speaker 5: much work gets done at the cabinet meeting, give all

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Speaker 5: the t and a that has happened, but he does

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Speaker 5: not believe that he's crashed the economy. I say that

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Speaker 5: because of what he said. He said, we're doing really well.

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Speaker 5: The teriffs haven't even all the way been implemented, but

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Speaker 5: we've gotten our numbers down. I'm using quotes about what

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Speaker 5: we pay when it comes to other countries for tariffs,

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Speaker 5: and I just cannot stress to people enough that a

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Speaker 5: tariff is a tax and the people are paying the tax.

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Speaker 5: And when other countries eliminate tariffs on us, meaning in

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Speaker 5: the United States, that does nothing to help the United

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Speaker 5: States economy. What it does cripple the economy of the

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Speaker 5: home country because they have a tariff because we're I mean,

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Speaker 5: look some things we just don't make in America, folks.

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Speaker 5: There is not enough coffee in Puerto Rico and Hawaii

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Speaker 5: to sustain American's coffee habits. Okay, more importantly, yes, it's

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Speaker 5: just it just doesn't happen. So, yeah, we've got a

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Speaker 5: trade deficit, if you will, with countries that make more coffee,

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Speaker 5: for example, because we're importing a lot of coffee. And

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Speaker 5: there's nothing wrong with that. But Donald Trump, I believe

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Speaker 5: Miley is just banking on people just not knowing general

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Speaker 5: economics and not thinking enough to care to google. He

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Speaker 5: told lies about how much money the United States that's

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Speaker 5: sent to Ukraine. It was just really crazy. But I

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Speaker 5: listen because it's important for us all to be informed.

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Speaker 1: So I want to talk to you about something really

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Speaker 1: important which I have noticed about Don Trump's beening office

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Speaker 1: one hundred days. This man is doing interviews almost every day.

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Speaker 1: He is doing interviews, he's doing television, he's doing Time magazine,

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Speaker 1: he's doing pressors. He's doing these North Korean style televised

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Speaker 1: cabinet meetings where everyone goes around the room and talks

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Speaker 1: about how great he is, and he takes questions during them.

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Speaker 1: And this is in no way a compliment of Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: And this is a real question to you because you're

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Speaker 1: smart and also because you're honest. Do you think there's

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Speaker 1: a lesson to be learned here for Democrats about this

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Speaker 1: media accessibility? Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Little?

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 5: First, you know, I think, is how secret what Donald

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Speaker 5: tup does well? Is he is a master marketer. You know,

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Speaker 5: whether he is telling the truth when he's doing this

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Speaker 5: marketing is another question. But I think it is a

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Speaker 5: valid thing to point out that, you know, he's a

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Speaker 5: good marketer. That's how he made a lot of his money.

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Speaker 5: That's how he fashioned himself for years as the apprentice,

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Speaker 5: you know what I mean. So people believe that he

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Speaker 5: is a good businessman because he marketed himself as such,

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Speaker 5: an because the numbers bored that out, and so there

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Speaker 5: is a letton to take there. Look a lot of

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Speaker 5: around one hundred days. I mean, what he has done

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Speaker 5: in the last couple of days, I believe is very

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Speaker 5: standard to past presidents. At one hundred day mark, you

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Speaker 5: do have you would usually have one hundred day interview

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Speaker 5: or two that drop. You will go and do a

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Speaker 5: big event to mark your one hundred days. He did

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Speaker 5: that in Michigan. You would have maybe a television interview

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Speaker 5: or two to drop. He did one on Fox and

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Speaker 5: then obviously he's now taking questions at the cabinet meeting.

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Speaker 5: He could have also, you know, a president previously might

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Speaker 5: have been a press conference. The level of accessibility that

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Speaker 5: the president is offering I do think is important past presidents,

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Speaker 5: but I think people would compare this to President Biden

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Speaker 5: did not was not as accessible, if you will, in

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Speaker 5: terms of wanting to do interviews. He didn't want to.

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Speaker 5: And now I think if you talk to a lot

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Speaker 5: of White House reporters, they would say, well, he didn't

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Speaker 5: do the interviews because he couldn't. And I, you know,

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Speaker 5: stand firmly that it is not that he couldn't, it's

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Speaker 5: that he did not want to. But it seems like

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Speaker 5: a distin distinction without a difference. But given some of

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Speaker 5: the things that we know are come down the pipeline

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Speaker 5: in terms of some of these books that are coming

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Speaker 5: out about by an administration, I do think is a

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Speaker 5: distinction that is quite.

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Speaker 1: As important to mention.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but you know, yes, Donald Trump is very accessible. Absolutely,

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Speaker 5: I think that that's important. I think if you want

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Speaker 5: to get your message out, the best way to help

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Speaker 5: shape what people are saying about your message is in fact,

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Speaker 5: to talk to them. It's to tell them what your

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Speaker 5: message is. I think the biggest difference soul between Donald

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Speaker 5: Trump and everyone else is literally the man could say

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Speaker 5: I landed on the moon yesterday and they will move

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Speaker 5: on to the next question. And you know, I've worked

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Speaker 5: for candidates who are running for president. I worked for

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Speaker 5: a president and a vice president while they're in office.

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Speaker 5: That's just not usually how it works. I mean, the

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Speaker 5: benefit of the doubt that Donald Trump is afforded oftentimes

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Speaker 5: in these back and forth settings is insane. And I

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Speaker 5: think that it's one thing to be Accessibility is important,

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Speaker 5: but what you say when you are accessible should also matter.

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Speaker 1: In my opinion, oh one hundred percent. But I do

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Speaker 1: think there's more. Let's talk about Biden for a minute,

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Speaker 1: because you and I.

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Speaker 5: I both What do you think, Molly? What do you think?

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Speaker 1: This is why I love you? There are these books

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Speaker 1: that say whatever. I do not believe that getting old

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Speaker 1: is a conspiracy. I believe getting old is getting old.

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Speaker 1: As someone who has a mother who has actual dementia

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Speaker 1: and a father who is just getting old, I actually

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Speaker 1: know that getting old is just getting old. And the

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Speaker 1: ways we feel about getting old are a lot about

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Speaker 1: ourselves and not so much about conspiracies. So I have

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Speaker 1: been really impressed with just how sleazy I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of this is. And by the way, I still

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Speaker 1: there is no one with all these books. And again,

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Speaker 1: maybe there's something that will come out, but you know,

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Speaker 1: everything I've read so far makes me think that it

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Speaker 1: was a guy getting older.

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Speaker 5: Look, I obviously did not work in the White House

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Speaker 5: with the President the last you know, two three years.

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Speaker 5: What I know about Joe Biden for what I saw

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Speaker 5: for my own two eyes, and I mean I saw

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Speaker 5: him about a week before inauguration. I was at the

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Speaker 5: White House. I had a conversation with him, We spent

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Speaker 5: some time together. I think the cognitive decline self is

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Speaker 5: a bunch of bs. I really do. I think that

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Speaker 5: there is a distinction between one being getting older in

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Speaker 5: age and legitimately having a cognitive decline that there is

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Speaker 5: something wrong with you up there. And I do not

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Speaker 5: think the president President Biden was suffering from a cognitive decline.

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Speaker 5: Now that being said, could you say that maybe he

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Speaker 5: was in denial about the political reality of the situation.

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Speaker 5: I think you can ask personally say that, Yeah, if

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Speaker 5: we say he's in denial, then we have to ask, well,

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Speaker 5: how did that come to be? Who were some of

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Speaker 5: the people around him saying some of the things to him?

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Speaker 5: But then that takes us to a deeper level, and

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Speaker 5: that means some other individuals had to take some accountability

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Speaker 5: for the advice, if you will, and counsel that they

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Speaker 5: gave the president, and that's, you know, kind of hard

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Speaker 5: to do. One could argue they don't want to do that,

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Speaker 5: So it's very easier to just say, oh, blame Joe.

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Speaker 5: I just you know, I think two things can be

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Speaker 5: true at the same time. Was the President older? Absolutely? Also,

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Speaker 5: I mean, well, we'll have to hear from Joe Biden

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Speaker 5: on this, and I hope that he does decide to

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Speaker 5: come out and say a little something. But knowing what

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Speaker 5: I know about him, I believe one thousand percent that

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Speaker 5: what was happening with Hunter and the target, that the

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Speaker 5: Department of Justice and the Donald Trump and all this ally,

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Speaker 5: all of the Trump, the President, president Trump's allies had

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Speaker 5: on Hunter Biden specifically, I have to believe that that

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Speaker 5: weighed on the President in an immense way that I

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Speaker 5: do not believe he's adequately or he's articulated to us. Now,

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Speaker 5: what happened to that debate, Molly, I don't know. The

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Speaker 5: streets say the President was sick, and I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 5: if he's sick, y'all probably should have said that before

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Speaker 5: the debate, not in the middle, and not after. But

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Speaker 5: then you see the President go out on stage, President

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Speaker 5: Biden with the then first Lady, doctor Joe Biden, and

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Speaker 5: doctor Biden says, you did great, and then and the

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Speaker 5: President gives a very rousing speech post debate to a

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Speaker 5: crowd of folks and people are like, well, where was

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Speaker 5: this man twenty minutes? And then he goes to what

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Speaker 5: was it a wall house, and the reporters that are

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Speaker 5: following him in the pool ask him, you know, how

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Speaker 5: does he think he did? From outside look at him

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Speaker 5: as the president? It was kind of not great. And

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Speaker 5: Joe Biden, you know, it's kind of hard to debate

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Speaker 5: a bully. No no, no, no, no, no no no no.

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Speaker 5: That to me goes back to the advice and the

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Speaker 5: counsel of the advisors, because I'd had to give advice

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Speaker 5: and counsel before. And you have to be willing to

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Speaker 5: tell the principle the hard thing. You don't want to crush,

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Speaker 5: you know, their morale. But I mean, if you come

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Speaker 5: off of stage and you sucked, you gotta be willing

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Speaker 5: to tell the principle that, sir, the end, you ended

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Speaker 5: stronger than you started. The beginning was rocky, and frankly,

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Speaker 5: we are being lambasted on social and in the press

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Speaker 5: giving your performance, and then we have to talk about

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Speaker 5: a strategy. But I don't believe that that moment happened

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Speaker 5: with President Biden. And I think there are many instances

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Speaker 5: where the folks whose job it was to tell the

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Speaker 5: president the truth, okay, they were not telling him the truth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. I also think part of

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Speaker 1: problem here, and I think this is a real problem

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Speaker 1: with democratic politics. I'm going to tell you a story

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Speaker 1: and you tell me what you think. So there is

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Speaker 1: this question of who will be the ranking member on oversight.

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Speaker 1: This gets me very agitated. I had a chance to

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Speaker 1: elevate someone young with a bigger profile. Could have been AOC,

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Speaker 1: could have been Jasmine Cracker, could have been Max well Frost.

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Speaker 1: They'll probably not chance to elevate someone who has actually

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Speaker 1: an ability to shine the spotlight on things right. Instead,

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Speaker 1: they decide to elevate Jerry.

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Speaker 5: Connolly that day. Let's be specific, good old speaker hearts

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Speaker 5: on Nancy Pelosi.

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Speaker 1: Right. I think there's a straight line between elevating Jerry

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Speaker 1: Connolly and Democrats not doing well in polls. Discuss yes

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Speaker 1: and no.

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Speaker 5: First of all, everybody has had a lot to say

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Speaker 5: over the last couple of days in terms of the

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Speaker 5: one hundred day polling around prevent Trump, and I always

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Speaker 5: people their polls are a snapshot in time, so you

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Speaker 5: cannot put all this stock in the polls when you

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Speaker 5: like them, and then when you don't like the polls,

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Speaker 5: it's like, oh, Poles, I'm at it. So I hope

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Speaker 5: this and is saying they're a snapshot, So sure, the

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Speaker 5: snapshot is saying right now that Americans don't like what

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Speaker 5: is happening in the first one hundred days, but we're

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Speaker 5: gonna remain to be seen. They don't like it, yet

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Speaker 5: there's still people who support the president saying I don't

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Speaker 5: like it, but I support the president.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, got it. Disappear more grad students because that don't

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Speaker 1: really help his poem.

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Speaker 5: Oh, because that's what the American people want, and fringe

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Speaker 5: love the process. They love that, they love lawlessness, feeling

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Speaker 5: like they live in a third world dictatorship. That'll get them, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I think. And first, you know, obviously, since Congressman Conley

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Speaker 5: has been elevated, he has now said he's going to

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Speaker 5: not only step back from the committee, but also not

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Speaker 5: run for re election for Congress because his cancer has

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Speaker 5: come back and he is a great public servant, he

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Speaker 5: has served honorably and like many blessings and sending good

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Speaker 5: prayers to him and his family. Correct, And I do

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Speaker 5: though think that allowing and I mean it spinning Pelosi,

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Speaker 5: who is not currently the speaker, still wields a lot

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Speaker 5: of power and there are a lot of people that

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Speaker 5: are very much so still allied with her within the

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Speaker 5: ranks of the congressional Democrats on the hill in the House.

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Speaker 5: I do think frankly, it was a mistake. I do.

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Speaker 5: And it's not just about newer, younger people. It is

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Speaker 5: about understanding and putting together a strategy and putting the

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Speaker 5: people in place that is needed for time such as this,

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Speaker 5: and in my opinion, with Democrats need to demonstrate because

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Speaker 5: they are the minority, because there's little they can do

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Speaker 5: to affect what is happening. Sands withhold their votes for

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Speaker 5: a budget right or that ceiling which is coming up.

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Speaker 5: Is demonstrate some fight that shows up in how you campaign,

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Speaker 5: but also how you ask questions in your committee hearings,

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Speaker 5: where you go, what you say, how you show up

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Speaker 5: on television, and in this day and age, I think

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Speaker 5: democratic elected officials need to put forward the people in

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Speaker 5: the spaces and places that can demonstrate the fight and

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Speaker 5: have the strategy there. So I think some of the

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Speaker 5: polling is just supposed with not just this particular not

435
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 5: lack of elevation of newer, younger members and the cementing

436
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 5: of someone who is a more seasoned member. I think

437
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 5: that polling is indicative of the fact that in the

438
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 5: first couple weeks when Donald Trump was inaugurated, this second time,

439
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 5: Democrats is just like, it ain't nothing we can do.

440
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 5: Oh oh, we're large. There were a couple of people,

441
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 5: the Democratic governors ready to fight. Democratic attorney generals literally

442
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 5: had a plan. Democratic members of Conference and leadership was

443
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 5: just kind of like they got caught flat footed, like

444
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 5: they haven't known since November that Donald Trump was about

445
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 5: to be president. And as someone that worked in Democratic politics,

446
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 5: you know, for the entire first part of my professional life,

447
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 5: for someone who grew up and worked for and advocated

448
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 5: for the Democratic Party apparatus, I was definitely disappointed. And frankly,

449
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 5: I think that if Democrats did not start to demonstrate

450
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 5: some fight, there would not have been an argument to

451
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 5: make for why they should be able to take back

452
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 5: the House next year. But I do think what we've

453
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 5: seen since that time is there's been some trial and error.

454
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 5: Some of it has worked out, some of it hasn't,

455
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 5: But the American people are at least seeing that there

456
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 5: are members of Congress disproportionately Democrats and like three Republicans

457
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 5: who are willing to stand up to the President, for

458
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 5: their constituents, for what is right, for what is the law,

459
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 5: and that will matter to voters come twenty twenty six.

460
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 5: The last thing I'll say, Maley is I think that

461
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 5: Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, and the Republican Party apparatus read large,

462
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 5: they are seeing the same you know, they know the

463
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 5: same things I just said that you and I know

464
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 5: to be true. They're seeing the same polling, They're seeing

465
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 5: the energy that the opposition is fired up. And I

466
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 5: do not believe that Steven Miller and Donald Trump are

467
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 5: just gonna go quietly into the night and let the

468
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 5: House slip through their fingers because of a little thing

469
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 5: called public sentiment, between the Save Act, between these executive

470
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 5: orders on voting, between what Republicans specifically in North Carolina

471
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 5: are doing right now to steal an election from Alison Riggs,

472
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 5: who was the duly elected member of the state Supreme

473
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 5: Court in November. She won that race, and they've done

474
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 5: everything in their power, the Republicans in that state, to

475
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 5: change the vote. Okay, I think they're waiting un till

476
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 5: twenty twenty eight to you know, implement a voter suppression strategy.

477
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 5: This is happening right now, and I do think that

478
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 5: people have to be vigilant and Democrats have to have

479
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 5: a plan. You can't out vote voter suppression. It don't

480
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 5: work like that.

481
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. Let's talk about the CR.

482
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's.

483
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 5: Like, why do you keep this appointing me? What are

484
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 5: going on?

485
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 1: Right? So let's talk about the CR. There's a CR.

486
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: It goes through Congress, it makes it through Congress, once

487
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: it's in the Senate. Democrats have their names on it.

488
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: It's hard. It's very hard to shut down the government.

489
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 5: I don't think so at all.

490
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about that. So what do you

491
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: think should have happened? And what do you think? Talk

492
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: to me?

493
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 5: So, first of all, I understand the argument of well,

494
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 5: if if we shut down, if we allow the government

495
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 5: to shut down, then it is the executive branch that

496
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 5: decides what things are, what functions are essential and non essential.

497
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 5: And if the government deems something essential, it continues to operate.

498
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 5: If you will, people don't get paid, they continue to operate.

499
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 5: If the government deeds being something not essential, it does

500
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 5: not continue to operate, and on top of that, you

501
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 5: don't get paid. So I upset that argument. But they're

502
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 5: doing it anyway right now. So I'm just kind of like, Okay,

503
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 5: our is there. You're a cool like, he's not doing

504
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 5: this right now. I could see. I could see if

505
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 5: the United if the federal government was not arbitrarily picking

506
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 5: and choosing what departments and agencies to shut down unconstitutionally

507
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 5: because they don't have to power to do so. I

508
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 5: can understand if they were not already doing that. But

509
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 5: they were already doing it. And so the argument that

510
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 5: Democrats were making are we don't want to show down

511
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 5: the government because there's no way for us to ever

512
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 5: get the government back open, and that is also not

513
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 5: a true argument. I think that people that needed to

514
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 5: see a fight, and frankly the same way that Donald

515
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 5: Trump is that are about face on these tariffs, signs

516
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 5: just sprun around. If I spent around in my chair,

517
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 5: put a pause on those chairs and ninety day palls

518
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 5: because people are like, this is too crazy. And the

519
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 5: public outcry was in saying Democrats would not have been

520
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 5: blamed for the government being shut out. It would be

521
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 5: Donald Trump and the Republicans' unwillingness to negotiate with their

522
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 5: Democratic counterparts. You have to be you have to stand

523
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 5: for something in the face of lawless tyranny. You cannot

524
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 5: roll over because of the procedure and process. And frankly,

525
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 5: that was like the only time in the foreseeable future

526
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 5: until it's a debt ceiling. And I think the debt

527
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 5: seiling is a very different fight because the debt ceiling

528
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 5: is about money that we already spent. It's not about

529
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 5: how money that is to be spent. Dead ceiling is

530
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 5: literally paying your credit card bill because you already spent

531
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 5: the money, so you now have to pay the bill.

532
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 5: It's like the ax every month that comes due. Honey.

533
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 5: Then I plan about said thirty days. This was the

534
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 5: opportunity to do something. The very little power that the

535
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 5: Democratic Party operat has had, the elected officials and Washington,

536
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 5: they squandered, at my opinion, that opportunity because there was

537
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 5: a strategic divide in terms of what Democrats, particularly in

538
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 5: the United States Senate thought was plausible. And frankly, Leader Schumer,

539
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 5: I mean, on Wednesday, the man is like we're fighting

540
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 5: and by Thursday, He's like, we must spawn the government,

541
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 5: we must do our due diligence. I'm like, I'm got whiplashed.

542
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 5: I don't know what is it?

543
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: What happened? Simoan? I really appreciate you. You cracked me up,

544
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: but you're also correct, you know.

545
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 5: But can we end on a hopeful note because I

546
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 5: think people hear like, well, dang, no hope. I believe

547
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 5: as I like to have my deal in my hand,

548
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 5: I believe that the people had the power. And if

549
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 5: don't believe that the people have the power, look at

550
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 5: what has happened in this country in this first one

551
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 5: hundred days. Down't stop put the palls on the tariffs

552
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 5: because people stood up, raised their voices, restored their discontent,

553
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 5: called their elected officials, and the elected officials called the

554
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 5: White House, Democrats and Republicans. People have really been in

555
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 5: the streets protesting every single day of this presc it works.

556
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 5: They tried to shut off the Medicaid portals in the

557
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 5: first like two weeks, and people's outcry made them turn

558
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 5: the portals back, going in and say it wasn't a

559
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 5: So the people do have the power. And when we

560
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 5: stand up, I know it doesn't feel it like we

561
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 5: do some days. I know it feels like dark and

562
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 5: hopeless some days, but truly we still live in the

563
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 5: United States of America. We still live in the You know,

564
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 5: this is the first multi racial democracy that has ever

565
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 5: been tried in the history of the world. We are

566
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 5: still in it. A segment of individuals, including the President

567
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 5: of the United States, would like it to turn us

568
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 5: into something else, but for now, we are still a

569
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 5: democratic republic and we have to fight for our democracy

570
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 5: as standing up and raising your voice, not rolling over,

571
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 5: asking questions why how can they do that? No, I

572
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 5: don't want this to happen, demanding that you're elected officials,

573
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 5: whether they are Democrats or Republicans, speak up. Don Bacon

574
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 5: of Nebraska is speaking up and out against people and

575
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 5: his party president for what is right, because he himself

576
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 5: knows it's correct to do, and his constituents have asked

577
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 5: him to do so. The people have the power.

578
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you, Simone.

579
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 5: Thank you, Molly. It's always a pleasure.

580
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: Mary Ziegler is a legal historian and the author of Personhood,

581
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: The News, Civil War over Reproduction. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.

582
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 6: Mary, Thanks for having me Buck.

583
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: Mary Ziegler I think of you as like the smartest

584
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: person writing about the law and history right now, and

585
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: also very smart law professor. So talk to me about

586
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: this book and where you are right now.

587
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I wrote the book because after Dobbs,

588
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 6: I think there was a moment when I started to

589
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,719
Speaker 6: have friends say, essentially, you know, what are you going

590
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 6: to do now that it's over? And I think they

591
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 6: meant it's over for conservatives. Obviously it was never over

592
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 6: for people who supported reproductive rights, who aren't going to

593
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 6: stop fighting. But I think they meant, what are you

594
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 6: going to do now that people on the right got

595
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 6: everything they wanted? And I thought, well, they didn't everything

596
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 6: they wanted. It's not over for them either, and things

597
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 6: can get a whole lot worse from the standpoint of

598
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 6: reproductive rights. And I think that's something I knew as

599
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 6: a historian that most people didn't have to know. So

600
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 6: I wrote the book really about how it was never

601
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 6: just about getting rid of row for people who oppose abortion,

602
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 6: and how what it is about, which is this idea

603
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 6: of fetal personhood could reshape, you know, the way people

604
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 6: experience pregnancy and reproduction in all kinds of ways that

605
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 6: I don't think we've been aware.

606
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: Of Yes, So this is like an obsession of mine

607
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: because I had seen the writing on the wall with

608
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: fetal personhood. So this book is called Personhood the New

609
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: Civil War over Reproduction, and it is I don't want

610
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: to be nice, but I want to explain how important

611
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: this is. It is the smartest thing conservatives have done.

612
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: So I want you to talk us through how we

613
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: went from basically heartbeat laws to a nagism person Yeah.

614
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 6: Well, one of the things that I think people don't

615
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 6: realize about personhood is it was there the whole time, right.

616
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 6: So it's not new in the sense that these arguments

617
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 6: have been in kind of in the hopper waiting to.

618
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: Be brought out.

619
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 6: They were developed. I think the initial personhood argument started

620
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 6: in the nineteen sixties and they've never really gone away.

621
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 6: A quick way to kind of find this is to

622
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 6: look at old Republican Party platforms. They were there the

623
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 6: whole time, right. So I think what's changed is the

624
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 6: willingness of anti abortion groups to say this openly now

625
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 6: that Roe is gone. I think a few things have changed.

626
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 6: I think one, there's not as much fear about offending

627
00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 6: or pissing off voters.

628
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: And two, I.

629
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 6: Think there's a realization that the way to success really

630
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,959
Speaker 6: is through the federal courts, who are willing to do

631
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 6: things that voters would not, And that means you can

632
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 6: make arguments about, for example, constitutional fetal rights requiring the

633
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 6: criminalization of abortion or severe limits on IBF that you

634
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 6: know voters would hate, because you're not talking to voters anymore.

635
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 6: So that transition has really been a visible since Stobs

636
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 6: part of this much longer again, like a campaign that's

637
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 6: been going on for over half a century.

638
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: Now, explain what that means. You're not accountable to voters anymore.

639
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, of course abortion opponents can be right, which

640
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 6: is one of the reasons why we're seeing i think

641
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 6: a little bit of slow walking from the Trump administration.

642
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 6: We still obviously we're not that deep into the Trump administration.

643
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 6: We could still see national limits on abortion, but we

644
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 6: have seen Trump roll out one thing after another very

645
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 6: very quickly, and not as quickly it comes to abortion.

646
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 6: So Republicans are still accountable to voters, but anti abortion

647
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 6: groups are relying less on Republicans who still have to

648
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 6: run competitive races, and relying more and advancing personhood on

649
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 6: people who don't so think the justices on the Supreme

650
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 6: Court think other federal judges think state Supreme Court judges

651
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 6: who either don't face election or have tremendous incumbency advantages,

652
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 6: and sometimes even state legislatures in places like Missouri where

653
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 6: people know that Republicans won't lose their kind of stranglehold

654
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 6: on state government even if they do things voters explicitly

655
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 6: already rejected, for example, in a ballot initiative. So the

656
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 6: goal is to pursue personhood whether or not Americans want it,

657
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 6: and to find ways where popular opinion is less important

658
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 6: to advance that goal.

659
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: First, tell me where person at laws are, where they're

660
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: sort of in the hopper, where we're going to see

661
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: more of that. Is it like a Texas thing the

662
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: way it was with SBA, or sort of give me

663
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 1: the state House personhood tour.

664
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 5: Sure.

665
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 6: One of the weird features of personhood is that personhood

666
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 6: is there are a lot of laws that reflect the

667
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 6: idea of a fetus or embryo having rights, and we

668
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 6: just don't know how enforceable they are because a lot

669
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 6: of these laws were passed when Roe was on the books,

670
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 6: and they came across as kind of get out the boat,

671
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 6: like feel good tools for conservatives that weren't really going anywhere. So,

672
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 6: you know, for example, everybody probably remembers last year the

673
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 6: Alabama Supreme Court said that state's froncful death law effectively

674
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 6: meant IVF couldn't continue. That law had been around for

675
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 6: a while.

676
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: I remember that incredible moment.

677
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, so IVF had been around for a while. That

678
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 6: law had been around for a while, and no one

679
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 6: was ever using it to stop IVF. So that's kind

680
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 6: of the state of play when it comes to laws

681
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 6: already on the books. There are a lot of references

682
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 6: to fetal personhood, and we don't know what the conservative

683
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 6: state judges are going to do with them in terms

684
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 6: of abortion and ida.

685
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 1: When that happened, they phrased the IVF. Then they went

686
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: up to the governor to indemnify against like if you

687
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: wasted eggs, it wasn't murdering a person, right, Yeah, was

688
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: that intentional? And I'd love you to talk more about

689
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: the sort of legal nuance there too.

690
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, the Alabama legislature wasn't comfortable just saying yeah,

691
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 6: you know, the Alabama Supreme Court was wrong. Embryos are

692
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 6: not persons. Like that was an option table that wasn't

693
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 6: what they wanted to do, so instead they just said,

694
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 6: you know, we're going to protect all the people at

695
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 6: all in the IVF process, providers, but other people too

696
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 6: from criminal and civil liability, while still saying embryos are people.

697
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 6: So that just shows you that Republicans are in a

698
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 6: kind of sticky place when it comes to IVF in particular,

699
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 6: but also person who more broadly, because they don't want

700
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 6: to do things that are going to be profoundly unpopular

701
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 6: and newsworthy, but they also don't want to contradict this

702
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 6: idea of personhood.

703
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Continue on the state laws though.

704
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, on the new laws front, we're seeing part of

705
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 6: this big strategy to establish that fetal rights and as

706
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 6: many areas of the law as possible that are not

707
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 6: not just abortion, but anything right so wrongful death, like

708
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 6: in Alabama child support during pregnancy. The idea is to

709
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 6: essentially make it look weirder and weirder to the justices

710
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 6: on the Supreme Court that embryos and fetuses aren't constitutional

711
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 6: rights holders too. So we're seeing some bills like that

712
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 6: this legislative session in places like Kansas. We're also seeing

713
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 6: a kind of fight and breakout within the anti abortion

714
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 6: movement about what it would mean to enforce personhood. And

715
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 6: there's always been fights about that, mostly behind the scenes.

716
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 6: Now they're happening in the news end in public. So

717
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 6: the most visible one is to fight about whether you

718
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 6: need to punish women and pregnant people for having abortion

719
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 6: if a fetus or embryo as a person. So we're

720
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,240
Speaker 6: seeing bills come up this legislative session in more states

721
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 6: than ever before taking that position. We're also seeing abolitionists

722
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 6: and places, as they call themselves, the pro punishing women

723
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 6: in faction in places like Texas, negotiating to make bands

724
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 6: even stricter. When they can't get the punishment of women

725
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 6: they want, they managed to kind of push things in

726
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 6: that direction in a more subtle way. So all of

727
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 6: that is happening right now as we speak. In the

728
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 6: name of the old person.

729
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what you know personhood means in other

730
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: state houses.

731
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, welluses, there's still I think a debate, right, So

732
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 6: some states are doing the kind of disavowing that they

733
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 6: have a big project and just moving the ball forward

734
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 6: in incremental ways. So, for example, on the child support

735
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 6: side of things in state houses right, and in theory,

736
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 6: I think a lot of people could look at that

737
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,479
Speaker 6: and say, I don't really have a problem with somebody

738
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 6: getting shild support during pregnant. See, I'd probably put myself

739
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 6: in that category. But one of the weird features of

740
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 6: our politics when it comes to this is that all

741
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 6: of these laws, like supporting these laws then becomes a

742
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 6: step toward recognizing constitutional fetal rights. And then it gets

743
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 6: even weirder because, for whatever reason, not for whatever reason,

744
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 6: because of decades of history, that's strange. In America, recognizing

745
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 6: fetal rights means criminalizing abortion. And that's weird. Why it's

746
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 6: weird is if you stop and think about it. I

747
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 6: don't know if you remember, but in twenty not long

748
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 6: after Dobbs, there was a woman in Texas who was

749
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 6: pregnant and she wanted to drive in the HOV lane

750
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 6: and she said, you know, if you're serious about this

751
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 6: fetal person put thing, why can't I do that? And

752
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 6: we've seen other moments like this where you see pregnant

753
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 6: people saying, well, hey, if you're serious about fetal person,

754
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 6: why aren't you treating me better? You know, why am

755
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 6: I not getting better healthcare?

756
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 5: Why am I not?

757
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 6: And so, but the way we do fetal personhood here,

758
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 6: which is not the way people think of fetal life,

759
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 6: and a lot of other countries just punishing people. That's

760
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 6: kind of where we've gone. And there's fights about who

761
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 6: gets punished and how much they get punished, but there's

762
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 6: no fight within the movement about the idea of a

763
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 6: justice equals punishment. So the fight in state houses has

764
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 6: been about that basically, like who gets punished, how much

765
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,720
Speaker 6: they get punished? Are their exceptions to when they get punished?

766
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 6: But there hasn't really been this kind of broader debate

767
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 6: about why it is that we think helping anyone, including

768
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 6: a fetus, involves punishing someone else.

769
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: So you have this fetal personhood, like so much in

770
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: Republican Party life right now, it has all sorts of

771
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: unintended consequences, right like child support and AHOV lines and

772
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: IVY and mourning after pills and Republicans sort of understand this,

773
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: but they sort of don't, right. I think they think

774
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: they can thread the needle on this. Do you think

775
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: that this is like just a step too far and

776
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: that when it starts getting into like what I think

777
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: has been interesting about this Republican Party is there's certain

778
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: things that are wildly unpopular that they've kind of gotten

779
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: to sneak in, but not the way they really want.

780
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: Like I'm thinking about porn right, and but this Republican Party,

781
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 1: Trump is so in bed with people who are like,

782
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: you know, these young influencers, people for whom ending porn

783
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: would really be a red line. Do you see, like

784
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: does it feel like personhood bumps up against this? And

785
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: if so, how and what do you think the play is? Well?

786
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 6: I think one of the weird traits they are sort

787
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 6: of features of the Republican Party now is what I

788
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 6: sort of see is like outsourcing the deeply unpopular stuff.

789
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 6: So Trump is I think, totally fine with there being

790
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 6: deeply unpop popular things happening about a worshar ibf, but

791
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 6: he doesn't want to be the one doing it. So

792
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 6: how does he achieve that. One way he achieved that

793
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 6: is by putting the people on the federal courts that

794
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 6: social conservatives want and letting them do it. Often when

795
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 6: they do it, it will be years later, maybe when

796
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 6: he's not in office anymore. And even if he's in office,

797
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,959
Speaker 6: he can say, hey, you know, they're just interpreting the law.

798
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 6: So I think that's how Republicans are trying to thread

799
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 6: the needle. And I think Trump was kind of emboldened

800
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 6: by that by Dobbs, because he sort of put the

801
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 6: people on the Supreme Court who got rid of Row,

802
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 6: which was deeply unpopular, and then got elected in twenty

803
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 6: twenty four. Anyway, Now, do I think he got elected

804
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 6: because people were excited that Roe was gone, or even

805
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 6: because people were okay with his role in Roe being gone.

806
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: No.

807
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 6: I think people voted for him because of inflation and

808
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 6: they weren't.

809
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 5: Happy about Roa being gone at all.

810
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 6: He I think learned from that that there is a

811
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 6: way to thread the needle, which is essentially to as

812
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 6: much as possible shift responsibility for unpopular policy. He's like

813
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 6: ones tied to personhood to other people. So I think

814
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 6: that's really where the danger is, and the whole States

815
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 6: rights idea right also is outsourcing some of those decisions

816
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 6: because state Republicans have very different incentives when it comes

817
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 6: to personhood.

818
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 1: Right.

819
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 6: They're pretty much insulated from political competition. They're only feorially

820
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 6: is getting primary or offending conservative donors. They're incentivized to

821
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 6: do things like push for personhood. So we're in this

822
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 6: weird situation where I think national Republicans don't want their

823
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 6: fingerprints on this. State level Republicans and federal judges either

824
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 6: don't care or are eager to have their fingerprints on this,

825
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 6: and that means personhood could advance even if it's not popular.

826
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: And why you talk about Amy Cony Barrett because she's

827
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 1: so interesting because she is absolutely not a friend of toys.

828
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: She was one of the votes to over Ton Roe.

829
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: I just want you to talk about her and where

830
00:43:58,680 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 1: you see her in this court.

831
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, Amy Gunnon Barrett's fascinating because I think she's obviously

832
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 6: deeply conservative, but I think she's also intellectually independent and

833
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 6: I think has her own views on pretty much every issue.

834
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 6: She tackles in on what the Constitution means so and

835
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 6: I don't think she always does what would line up

836
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 6: with her political preferences. I think she sees herself as

837
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 6: doing law and sees law as distinct from politics. Now,

838
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 6: I'm skeptical. I think everyone is skeptical that there's any

839
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 6: way you could entirely keep your politics out of what

840
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 6: you're doing with the law. But at the same time,

841
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 6: I think there's a difference between judges who just don't

842
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 6: try at all to do that and judges who do.

843
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 6: So what that would mean with personad with Barrett is

844
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 6: really complicated because obviously Barrett is probably the most sincerely

845
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 6: opposed to abortion on the court, like I think actually

846
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 6: cares about that in a way on religious basis that

847
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 6: no one else on the Court probably does. On the

848
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 6: other hand, I think that legal arguments for the recognition

849
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 6: of personhood you know, aren't very good. So she maybe

850
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 6: kind of pulled in two directions, one by her kind

851
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 6: of faith commitments and personal beliefs, and another by her

852
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 6: commitment to trying to interpret the law fairly when these

853
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 6: arguments about fetal rights are, you know, not great. The

854
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 6: argument essentially is that when the fourteenth Amendment was written,

855
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 6: the word person applied the moment in egg is fertilized.

856
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 6: And it's kind of a bizarre argument because no one

857
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 6: involved with the fourteenth Amendment talked about abortion. None of

858
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 6: the people who are trying to criminalize abortion talked about

859
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 6: the fourteenth Amendment. None of the state's criminalizing abortions seem

860
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 6: to think they had to criminalize abortion because of the Constitution.

861
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 6: So there's just this complete silence that people have to

862
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 6: work around to say this is what the constitution means

863
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 6: that I think it'd be hard for someone like Barrett

864
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 6: to ignore. But she's technically a wildcard.

865
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, She's such an interesting case of someone not being

866
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 1: a partisan hack on the Supreme Court. I wonder if

867
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: you could talk about you are a legal scholar. Besides

868
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: being a lawyer and a legal you know, you're also

869
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: a historian. And I'm wondering if you could talk a

870
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: little bit about how you see a sort of if

871
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 1: there's a historical president for something like Row, for a

872
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: law of the land overturned, and then if you wanted

873
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: to bring it back, say you were able to elect Democrats,

874
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,439
Speaker 1: rebuild the country to get more people in the court,

875
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: what would a what would that look like? What would

876
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: be the move you would make?

877
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 6: Well, I think what's happening now is actually good and

878
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 6: it looks like experimentation. So there are things that are

879
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 6: happening now I think are good, and things that are

880
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,240
Speaker 6: happening now that are where there's work to be done.

881
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 6: The things that are good is that we're seeing a

882
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 6: lot of experimentation in different states with different ways of

883
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 6: thinking about what a constitutional reproductive right would look like.

884
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,359
Speaker 6: One of the downsides of having a kind of home run,

885
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 6: big win in a case like Roe is that you

886
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 6: don't really get to see if it has unintended consequences,

887
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 6: or if it plays well with voters, or if people

888
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 6: can interpret it in bizarre ways, like you don't really

889
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 6: find any of that out until that's already the law.

890
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 6: So we're seeing this kind of state by state experiment

891
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 6: with ballot initiatives with existing state constitutions, and that kind

892
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 6: of gives us data in real time about what arguments

893
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 6: are the best when there is a court that.

894
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 5: Would be ready to hear them.

895
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 6: I think the other kind of lesson of history, though,

896
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 6: is that constitutional rights don't really mean a whole lot

897
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 6: if one you don't have a healthy democracy that's willing

898
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 6: to back them up. So the demise of Roe was

899
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 6: not just about conservatives making smart arguments to smart conservative justices,

900
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 6: or Donald Trump happening to ain in election, or Ruth

901
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 6: Bader Ginsburg happening to die. There was a lot being

902
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 6: done behind the scenes to make sure that the Supreme

903
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 6: Court was no longer worried about offending people or angering Americans.

904
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 6: So there we was working done on voter idea, laws

905
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 6: on vote by mail, laws on campaign finance laws. So

906
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 6: I think getting back to something like Roe would require

907
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 6: progressives to do all that work on the other side,

908
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 6: in other words, to make sure that if Americans want

909
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 6: there to be a right to a worship, that the

910
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 6: system is responsive right and begain't just ignore what people want,

911
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 6: which has been the reality for decades. So I think

912
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 6: those are probably the two big pieces that remembering that

913
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 6: this is not just what happens inside the courts or

914
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 6: who's on the court. It's much bigger than that.

915
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so true and so incredibly important. And also

916
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: just anyway, Mary, thank you, thank you for coming on

917
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: the podcast.

918
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, of course, anytime.

919
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: I'm happy to come.

920
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:55,959
Speaker 5: As you know, always so fun.

921
00:48:58,080 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 4: No Mo.

922
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 2: Jesse Cannon, Smiley, junk Fast, gotcha Whipper governor of Michigan.

923
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 2: We've been a fan in the past, but she's had

924
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: some missteps with the base of the Democratic Party lately

925
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 2: with her appearances around mister Trump, and yesterday she did

926
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 2: what many are calling enabling behavior with mister Trump.

927
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: Look, you can't have it both ways. I understand that

928
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: she's trying to help her state. I understand that, you know,

929
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: there's manufacturing, it's a purple state. There's a lot of

930
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: reasons to want to work with Trump. And look, sometimes

931
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 1: people are able to manipulate manipulate Trump into good effect.

932
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: We've seen that before, but that's not what's happening here.

933
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 1: And this is the line I think is between being

934
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: a captured institution like the law firms, like the billionaires

935
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 1: like we're seeing with Amazon, and being really a you know,

936
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: getting by. Gretchen is a captured institution of trump Ism

937
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,720
Speaker 1: at this moment, and the only person she is hurting

938
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: is herself. Trump is going to continue on, He is

939
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: going to do whatever he wants. She is being really

940
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: just destroyed in the public in her image by her

941
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: association with Trump. There is a way to do this

942
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 1: where you don't have to squander your public credibility, and

943
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: she is not able to spread the needle, And honestly,

944
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 1: it makes me sad because I think she's really smart.

945
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

946
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:47,760
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

947
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

948
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

949
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going Thanks for listening,