1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: On this episode of Niche World, Mental Maps of the 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: Founders explores the geographic orientation the mental maps of six 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: of the Founders, Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison, and Gallatin. 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: Three were Virginians who vied to expand their new nation 5 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: toward different points of the compass. One, a refugee from 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: puritan Boston to more tolerant Philadelphia, built a commercial and 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: journalistic empire spanning Seaboard colonies and the West Indies. Two 8 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: came from buzzing commercial ports of glaringly different character, the 9 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: sugar and slave island of San Croix in the Caribbean 10 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: and the stern Swiss Calvinistic city state of Geneva. The 11 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: Founder's mental maps helped develop the contours and character of 12 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: a young republic whose geographical features and political boundaries were 13 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: yet unknown. Were to discuss his new book, I'm really 14 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: pleased to welcome my guest, my good friend, and someone 15 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: who I have not only known for a long time, 16 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: but I have studied for a long time, Michael Burrow. 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: He is a senior political analyst for the Washington Examiner, 18 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,639 Speaker 1: a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. The former 19 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: Vice President for the polling firm Peter DeHeart Research Associates, 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: a member of the editorial page staff of The Washington Post, 21 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: a senior writer to US News and World Report, a 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: senior staff editor at Reader's Digest, and has been associated 23 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: with the Almanac of American Politics, which every two years 24 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: has provided comprehensive knowledge about every congressional district. 25 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 2: In the country. 26 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: Michael, welcome and thank you for joining me on Newsworld. 27 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 2: Well, it's very good to be with you, and we've 28 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: been having conversations from various points of view and institutional 29 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: venues going back will considerably more than forty years. 30 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: It's kind of sobering, isn't it to realize how many 31 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: years we've been doing this. 32 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: You were early on to predict something that all the 33 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: smart people in Washington were assured that could never happen, 34 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: which is a Republican majority in the House of Representatives. 35 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: That was achieved in nineteen ninety four, and there have 36 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: been Republican majorities in the House Representatives in most of 37 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: the years since. So that's just one of the many 38 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 2: things that you've accomplished. 39 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: You're one of the principal authors of the Almanac of 40 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: American Politics. Which is a remarkably detailed reference work on 41 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: Congress and state politics, which has been published every two 42 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: years by National Journal since nineteen seventy two. First of all, 43 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: you're encyclopedic knowledge of American politics as extraordinary. But I'm curious, 44 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: how has politics changed since you first started writing for 45 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: the Almanac in nineteen seventy two. 46 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 2: Well, politics has changed in a number of ways since 47 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. I think in nineteen seventy two, a 48 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 2: lot of Americans political allegiance was anchored in historical memories, 49 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 2: in memories of the Civil War, in memories of you 50 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: might say, almost the religious wars of the seventeenth century 51 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: of Catholicism and Protestantism. That was kind of played out 52 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: with the election of John F. Kennedy in nineteen sixty, 53 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: But it was a recent memory in nineteen seventy two, 54 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: memories of my home state of Michigan, of the sit 55 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: down strikes that compelled the Detroit based auto companies to 56 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: recognize the United Auto Workers as the bargaining agent for 57 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: their union, and the unionization of major industries by nineteen 58 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: seventy two. That was an historic event, more than a 59 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: third of a century in the past, but one with importantifications. 60 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: And I think what we're seeing now is more nationalization 61 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: of politics. You know, the political scientists, starting with a 62 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: guy named Ee Schatzneider in the nineteen sixties, fifties and sixties, said, 63 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: you know, wouldn't it be nice if we just instead 64 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: of having these political parties that contain all sorts of 65 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 2: odd duck people, the Democratic Party with the left wing 66 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:30,559 Speaker 2: agitators in the north and the conservative segregationists in the south, 67 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 2: the Republican Party with the Wall Street people and the 68 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 2: farmers in the midwest, if we had one clearly liberal 69 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: party and one clearly conservative party, wouldn't that be much better? 70 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: And their prayers were answered in time, and we got 71 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: something like what we have today, which is somewhat more 72 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: cohesive parties, with the Democratic Party pretty much taking a 73 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: liberal stand on most issues and in fact lurching left 74 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: even within recent years, issues like abortion and immigration. So 75 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: they're now for abortion in all nine months of a pregnancy, 76 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 2: and who knows how many days beyond open borders on immigration, 77 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: which was an idea that almost nobody claimed to be 78 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 2: following a generation ago. The Republican Party has become more 79 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: of a demotic party, if I could say so new demotic. 80 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: That's not demonic. It's demotic as part of the people, 81 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 2: as part of ordinary people, as part of people that 82 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 2: are not white college graduates and Ivy League denizens, and 83 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: so we have rationalized it this way. It's in some 84 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: ways it's a little less complex vote than it used 85 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: to be. You know, in nineteen seventy two, when President 86 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: Nixon was re elected with sixty one percent of the vote, 87 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: half the congressional districts that Nixon carried voted for Democratic 88 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: members of Congress, and I think two districts that George 89 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 2: McGovern carried voted for Republican members of Gores. One of those, 90 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 2: the Democratic candidate was a man named John Kerry, who 91 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: went on to a variety of adventures in our public system. 92 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 2: But nowadays we get very few split tickets, and so 93 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: congressional districts that vote for the Republican presidential candidate pretty 94 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 2: much vote for Republicans and the same on the Democratic side. 95 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: So that's been one major change in politics. So in 96 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: the forty years that I was engaged heavily in writing 97 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 2: that almanac, book and others have since taken over most 98 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: of the work in some ways it got to be 99 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 2: a simpler book to write because you had fewer people 100 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 2: that were different from other members of fewer elected officials 101 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: that were different from other segments of their parties. So 102 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 2: when you became Speaker of the House in nineteen ninety five, 103 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 2: among your Republican members were people from Connie Morella from 104 00:06:53,560 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 2: Montgomery County, Maryland, Nancy Johnson from Connecticut, Olympia Snow from Maine, 105 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: all from districts which we now identify as pretty much 106 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: safe Democratic districts. You've had a number of members from 107 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: coastal California, so we see some natural changes. One of 108 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: the things that stays the same over time is that 109 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: there's a certain balance to this. As Mari Tischera, who 110 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: was one of the co authors of The Emerging Democratic Majority, 111 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: a two thousand and two book which got many things right, 112 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: which you could say predicted the two thousand and eight 113 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 2: victory of Barack Obama, But as Tishera has acknowledged, the 114 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 2: Republican Party adjusted to that. One of the things that 115 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 2: he and Judas assumed was that white working class voters 116 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: would stay Democratic. Turns out, they didn't. They got turned 117 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: off by things that the white college graduate liberal gentry liberals, 118 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: as Joe cock Cain calls them, and move toward the 119 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: Republican Party. You could see that in the nineteen nineties 120 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: and with George W. Bush in the first part of 121 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: the century. It's been accelerat with the candidacies of Donald 122 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: Trump and the nominations of Donald Trump. So there's a 123 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 2: certain self regulating mechanism. That long period of forty years 124 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: when the Democrats held the House of Representatives, political scientists 125 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: gave us all sorts of reasons why that was going 126 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: to last forever, and ever turned out it didn't turned out. 127 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: It's the exception in American history that if one party 128 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: gets to have a large majority, they're going to turn 129 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: off some of the people that are constituents of theirs, 130 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: and they're going to be available to the other party. 131 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: In your twenty twenty four edition, you revisit an essay 132 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: that you rode back in two thousand and two on 133 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,959 Speaker 1: the forty nine percent Nation, where you worked that Americans 134 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: no longer give landslide re elections to presidents credit with 135 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: peace and prosperity. I'm curious. I'm sort of a one 136 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 1: trick pony. I was part of the Great Reagan extraordinary 137 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: events of nineteen eighty and eighty four and then nineteen 138 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: ninety four and away was notionally a landslide, I guess, 139 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: so I'm always trying to how to get there. But 140 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: I get a sense that you think we really now 141 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: are sort of locked into trench warfare at the forty 142 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: nine fifty to fifty one level. 143 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: Well, I think we are, and I think in some 144 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: ways many of us are sort of dismayed by the 145 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 2: personal character and operating practices of the current president and 146 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: the one immediately before him, both of whom seemed to 147 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: be on their way to renomination by their parties. But 148 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 2: you know, looking at the longer run of American history, 149 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: landslides were unusual. If you look at the nineteenth century 150 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 2: and go really up to the nineteen twenties, you basically 151 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 2: see nobody's getting more than fifty six popular vote for 152 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: president fifty six percent, as tops Andrew Jackson in eighteen 153 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: thirty two Ulysses S. Grant in eighteen seventy two. You 154 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: don't get those supermajorities. I think one of the things 155 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 2: you've got supermajorities out of two things in the first 156 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: half of the twentieth century when one party support collapse 157 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: because they really seem to be incompetent. We're familiar with 158 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 2: the Republican Party seeming to collapse with the Great Depression 159 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 2: of producing policies which it seemed to have no solution for. 160 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: And you get the election of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 161 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty two, the huge Democratic majorities in Congress and 162 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 2: so forth. That was presage, however, only a dozen years before, 163 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 2: by a collapse of the Democratic Party with Woodrow Wilson. 164 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 2: When you have inflation and huge economic shut down, when 165 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: you have a world war whose solution turns sour, and 166 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: indeed there's still wars going on in various parts of 167 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 2: the world, when you're having chaos, and Warren G. Harding 168 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: for the Republican Party says, I'm a candidate for return 169 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: to normalcy, a return away from these progressive mantras and 170 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: this disorder in the world. And he wins the election 171 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: by a popular vote majority of sixty to thirty four 172 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 2: percent over James M. Cox, a man who later became 173 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: a billionaire and one of whose daughters is still alive today, 174 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 2: worth multiple billions of dollars. So Cox was not an idiot, 175 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: but he was defeated very badly, so that was a repudiation. 176 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,599 Speaker 2: Second half of the twentieth century, you get an electorate 177 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 2: that lived through depression, an electorate that lived through war, 178 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 2: and they were ready to reward an incumbent president who 179 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 2: seemed to produce peace, who seemed to produce prosperity. So 180 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 2: you get Dwight Eyesenower fifty seven percent and fifty six, 181 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 2: Lyndon Johnson sixty four percent for president in sixty four, 182 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: Nixon sixty one percent and sixty four Nixon sixty one 183 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: percent in nineteen seventy two, and the last one Ronald 184 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: Reagan eighty four fifty nine percent. Down just a little bit. 185 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: But Reagan also partakes of that era. He's a World 186 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: War two veteran, though not in a combat post. He 187 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: was an adult that in his thirties. He is a 188 00:11:54,800 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: person who made his living in the universal media of radio, movies, 189 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: and television, where you had popular culture that appeal to 190 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: a universal audience, to universal values, which created a sense 191 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: of americanness. And he partook of this, I think personally 192 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 2: as well as part of his professional performances, and so 193 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: he was able to rally fifty nine percent. No one 194 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 2: else has come close. President hw Bush, with a slight 195 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 2: decline turnout in eighty eight, gets fifty three point four percent. 196 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: Barack Obama is the next highest at fifty two point six. 197 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 2: They both round off to fifty three, but Obama's actually 198 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 2: a little behind Bush in that regard, and we don't 199 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: see it. You know, we've had these exceedingly close elections 200 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: in two thousand, close election in two thousand and four. 201 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: In twenty twelve, incumbent presidents reelected not with landslide majorities, 202 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: but with fifty one percent of the popular vote. And 203 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 2: we have the twenty sixteen election where Donald Trump wins 204 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 2: by seventy seven thousand votes three states, and twenty twenty 205 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 2: where Joe Biden wins by forty four thousand votes in 206 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 2: three states, wider popular vote margins, but the electoral college 207 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: was very close. And for Democrats who think that's unfair, 208 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: you guys knew in advance that the electoral college determines 209 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 2: the winner. I don't think you can claim that you 210 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 2: weren't under that impression. 211 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: So you really have an expectation that if we end 212 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: up back with Biden and Trump, which I think is 213 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: pretty likely this could easily come down to the wire again. 214 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: Well, I think it could easily come down to the 215 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 2: wire again. But you look at President Biden's job rating 216 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 2: and it's pretty dismal. But if you look at their 217 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 2: feelings towards President Trump, many of those are pretty dismal 218 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: as well, and he's unacceptable to a variety of people 219 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: that might embrace another Republican nominee. President Biden at eighty 220 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 2: currently at eighty one years old, seems to be missing 221 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: more steps than his ideal and a presidential candidate, those 222 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: personality factors could result in that. I mean, if you 223 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 2: want to look at it from an optimistic point of 224 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: view for a Republican newt and sometimes I know you 225 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: like to do that, you could say, well, we've seen 226 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 2: the bottom fall out on the border, We're seeing the 227 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: bottom falling out in the Middle East. In this kind 228 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: of disorder, maybe we'll see something like the collapse of 229 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: the Democratic Party in not twenty twenty, or the collapse 230 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 2: of the Republican Party in nineteen thirty two. If we 231 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 2: do see that, I guess I could write an article 232 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: about it afterwards, explaining why it happened. I think it's 233 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: unlikely to happen because I think that people have too 234 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: strong an attachment to or aversion from these two individuals 235 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: and from their parties. This in many ways, it looks 236 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: like the nineteenth century. It looks like, to go back 237 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: to my mental maps of the founders, it looks something 238 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 2: like the seventeen nineties. I mean popular vote worked in 239 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: different ways there. But you see, even with the leadership 240 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: of George Washington, president elected unanimously in which everybody professed 241 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 2: to have confidence, and he has two exceedingly competent, almost 242 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: preternaturally competent cabinet ministers, the Secretary of Stave Thomas Jefferson, 243 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: the Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton, they have conflicting 244 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: policies and they create even though they all say that 245 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 2: they have horror political parties, they get busy and create 246 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: political parties that come and go in terms of which 247 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: party has the majority or the effective majority in the 248 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: House of Representatives. In the Senate, you have a touch 249 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: and go situation with people threatening disunion and they're battling 250 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: severe and important public policy decisions in which you can 251 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: understand how people can take opposing views the question of 252 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 2: the National Bank and of finance and how you set 253 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: up an economic system. Are you looking forward to an 254 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: agricultural country, You're looking forward to a commercial country. And 255 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: in foreign policy, you have from seventeen ninety three on 256 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: a world war between revolutionary France and royalist and mercantile Britain, 257 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: America's leading trade partners. So it's natural that some of 258 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: the Americans are going to favor as Hamilton did the British, 259 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 2: and some are going to favor as Jefferson did the French. 260 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: And that's a pretty serious thing to disagree about. 261 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: When you talk about the mental maps, What do you 262 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: mean by that? 263 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: Well, I think we all have certain amount of mental maps. 264 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: They tell us which exit at the Beltway to take 265 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: off to get home. They tell us which way is 266 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 2: the most convenient way to walk to the corner grocery store, 267 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: if there is a corner grocery store. We have maps 268 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 2: in our minds. You know. I had been reading so 269 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: much about the Founding Fathers, in wonderful books published by 270 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: you know, written by academics and non academics over the 271 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 2: last twenty five or thirty years. I want to learn more. 272 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: And as my friend, the great reporter, Reagan biographer Luke 273 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 2: Cannon once told me, if you want to really learn 274 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 2: about a subject, write a book about it. And I thought, 275 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: what can I contribute? I haven't done archival research, building 276 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 2: on the shoulders of others. And I thought, well, I've 277 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 2: always been a map buff In writing that Almanac of 278 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: American Politics, I have a map in my mind of 279 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: four hundred and thirty five congressional districts, and I know 280 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: my way around them pretty well. I've been to all 281 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 2: four hundred and thirty five districts. I know the political 282 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 2: leadings of them all. So I thought, what were the 283 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 2: mental maps of the founders? Let me give you one 284 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 2: example that I think illustrates that and how it worked out. 285 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 2: In policy. You have one point where Alexander Hamilton is 286 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: talking about the new Nation, and he says, if you 287 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: look at the new nation, you look, and you on 288 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: your left hand, you have New England with the shipbuilders, 289 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 2: and they have these forests and they build ships and 290 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: they travel all over the world. On your right hand, 291 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 2: you have South Carolina and Virginia. They're producing continent tobacco 292 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,479 Speaker 2: and comets and things, and they need the ship building 293 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 2: and and so forth and so on. Where is he 294 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: standing when he says New England is on your left 295 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: and south Carolinas, and you're right. He's standing looking over 296 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: the Atlantic Ocean. Alexander's Hamilton's metal maps, where those invisible 297 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: lines of those voyages across the sea between the Great 298 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 2: Commercial Lakes. When he's writing treatises about the national banks, 299 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: he makes references to Amsterdam, to Hamburg, to the great 300 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: ports and the continents of Europe, the republic Hanseatic Republics, 301 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 2: and the city states of Italy, the Great Treaty. He'd 302 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: learned this in Saint Croix, that miserable Sugary with ninety 303 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: percent of the people Enslave, where he grew up in 304 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 2: horrifying circumstances, where at age seventeen, he's given the owners 305 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 2: of this firm that had hired him to be a clerk, 306 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 2: say well, we're going to New York for medical care. 307 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: You take over. And Alexander Hamilton at seventeen is canceling voyages, 308 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: ordering captains to go somewhere else, trading in multiple currencies, 309 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 2: dealing with people in three or four languages, and so forth. 310 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 2: Those are his mental maps. He leaves there and goes 311 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 2: to New York, never goes back. To the Caribbean, hate slavery, 312 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 2: for abolition of slavery, but he sees his mental map 313 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 2: is saying, how is the United States to be set 314 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 2: up to take part in this commerce and to enrich 315 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: ourselves and become a participating and full member of these 316 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 2: commercial societies. Thomas Jefferson one book that he published, Notes 317 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 2: on Virginia. It contains in the frontis piece and an 318 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: adapted version of a map made in seventeen fifty one 319 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 2: by two surveyors called Joshua Fry and Peter Jeffers. Peter 320 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 2: Jefferson was Thomas Jefferson's father. He was eight years old 321 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 2: and this map was published. It includes not just Virginia, 322 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 2: which included then what is now West Virginia and Kentucky, 323 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: but also much of Pennsylvania, the Ohio River Valley. It 324 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: goes west to the Mississippi River, and in Notes on Virginia, 325 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 2: Jefferson talks about all these topics about the flora and fauna, 326 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: and this is that he talks about slavery uncomfortably three 327 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 2: different locations in the book. But he goes back. He 328 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 2: tells you he crosses the Mississippi River and tells you 329 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: how wide and big the Missouri River is, which isn't 330 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 2: even in the United States in the seventeen eighties. When 331 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 2: he's writing, he tells you how many miles it is 332 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: from Santa Fe to Mexico City. He gets that pretty 333 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: much close to right. As a matter of fact, I'm 334 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 2: not sure any of us wants to take that trip 335 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: to day on a car. But the fact is that 336 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 2: he's thinking westward. The Peter Jefferson Thomas frigbook doesn't contain 337 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 2: any of New England. It doesn't contain the seaboard. Jefferson's 338 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 2: writing about Virginia, which has ports, but he doesn't say 339 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: much about it. It's passed right over. Jefferson's vision is west. 340 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 2: Jefferson's vision is a vision of republic that's going to 341 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 2: be filled with the yeoman farmers who are also going 342 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: to be deferential to their superior Thomas Jefferson living on 343 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: his beautiful mansion on the top of the little mountain Monticello, 344 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: which he built and rebuilt several times over the course 345 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: of his lifetime. He was a construction guy's dream because 346 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 2: he is always changing his house. But those were the differences. 347 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: So Hamilton wants a national bank. Hamilton wants a currency 348 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: that's going to work as a commercial enterprise. Hamilton wants 349 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 2: to have a manufacturing economy developing in the United States. 350 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 2: Hamilton wants a big navy to protect the United States 351 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 2: and protect commerce all over the world. Jefferson wants to 352 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: go west. He claims that the Constitution limits his powers greatly. 353 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 2: But when the French foreign minister tally Ran said to 354 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: his odd voice, Napoleon wants to say, you the whole 355 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 2: huge territory of Louisiana, Jefferson says, gee, I'm not sure 356 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 2: that's constitutional, but you know what, we're going to do it. 357 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 2: And he doesn't have too many doubts about that, And 358 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 2: in fact, he also sends the navy that Hamilton the 359 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 2: Federalists helped the build to get rid of the Barbary 360 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 2: pirates in North Africa, Muslim terrorists of their times. So 361 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: consequently their visions sometimes blended. Even though they were terrific 362 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: political opponents, Jefferson and Madison were not at all downcast 363 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 2: when they heard that Hamilton had been killed in a duel. 364 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 2: They were not friends, even though they'd been colleagues. But 365 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 2: the mental maps were different, and those had consequences, and 366 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 2: I think the one that I would give to you, 367 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,479 Speaker 2: that I think in some ways is to me. The 368 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: sort of discovery I had was George Washington. We know 369 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: George Washington was from Virginia. He was a planter, He 370 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: had owned slaves, ultimately married his wife in seventeen fifty nine, 371 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: owns some two hundred or more slaves. But his vision 372 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: was toward non slave territory. Remember he's a young man 373 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: who is not inheriting a whole lot of money. He's 374 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: the second son of a second marriage and father dies 375 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: when he's eleven years old. He's living on the land 376 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 2: of a man named Lord Fairfax, the only British nobleman 377 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 2: in North America. Lord Fairfax owns everything as a result 378 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 2: of a lawsuit in London between the Rappahannic and Potomac 379 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 2: rivers from Chesapeake Bay to the source of the rivers 380 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 2: in the Appalachian Chain. He hires, among others, the seventeen 381 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: year old George Washington as a surveyor. So George Washington's 382 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: going over the mountains and surveying. He's making money for 383 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: Lord Fairfax. He makes one hundred and twenty five pounds 384 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 2: one year, buys property in the Shenandoah Valley. When he's eighteen, 385 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 2: he's looking north by northwest, he's looking. And then he's 386 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 2: hired by the Virginia legislature when they're worried about the 387 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: French coming against the British, and the French coming to 388 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 2: the forks of the Ohio or the Alleghany and the 389 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: Monongahela rivers formo the site of course of Pittsburgh today. 390 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: They send George Washington up there at age twenty one 391 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 2: or thereabouts to warn the French to get the heck 392 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 2: out of there. He's not entirely successful in this regard, 393 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 2: but he begins to know the territory. He gets within 394 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 2: fifteen miles into the Lake Erie, which is a long 395 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 2: way to drive from Washington today. Try it in October 396 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: when the ice is starting to form on the Alleghany River. 397 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 2: He knows this territory to the south, and he always 398 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 2: sees the Potomac River as the great avenue inland across 399 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: the Appalachian Chain to the vast interior of America, where 400 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 2: he buys fifty thousand acres. He accumulates this vast amount 401 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 2: of land. He sees this. He notes when he's going 402 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,479 Speaker 2: through towards what becomes Pittsburgh. He says, they have a 403 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: very good quality of coal here. He's foreseeing something like 404 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: the Industrial Revolution coming through to what becomes, you know, 405 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: the arsenal of democracy in World War Two. It's the 406 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: arsenal of the Union in the Civil War in eighteen 407 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 2: sixty one, when Pittsburgh is producing the steel that helps 408 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 2: the Union defeat the Confederacy. So Washington's view was this, 409 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 2: and it's sealed. I think by what he does in 410 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 2: his private as well as his public life and public life, 411 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 2: he's Cincinnatus. He resigns his commission as Commander in Chief 412 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 2: and goes back to his farm. He declines to run 413 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 2: for a third term in the presidency when he easily 414 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 2: could have been elected, goes back to private life as 415 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: a private citizen, relinquishes power, sets an important precedent. The 416 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: other thing he's doing at Mount Vernon in the seventeen 417 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 2: ninety nine he's writing out in his quill pennel will 418 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: in which, following what Virginia law was at that time, 419 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 2: he frees his slave and provides for their sustenance and 420 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 2: support for the rest of their lives. I think he's 421 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 2: trying to set a precedent there as well what he 422 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 2: sees as the proper way for an America to develop. 423 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 2: He does not like the high slavery societies and his 424 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: trips as president. He likes New England a lot. He 425 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 2: doesn't like the Carolinas very much. And I think in 426 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 2: that way, George Washington's mental map tells us something about 427 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: him and tells us something about what he thought was 428 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 2: the desirable way for our country to grow. 429 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: I have to say in passing, when you talk about Jefferson, 430 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: I've always been impressed the Jefferson, who is clearly in 431 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: his own mind and an aristocrat, is the leading advocate 432 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: of small farmer populism. He's one of the greatest politicians 433 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: in American history. 434 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: Well he is, and he's certainly kind of assuming that 435 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 2: the small farmers are going to be deferential to him, 436 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 2: which in fact was mostly his experience. When things went 437 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: badly for him politically, he would retire back to Monticello, 438 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: tear down the house he had built before and start 439 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 2: building a new one, and so forth. There was more 440 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 2: beautiful than the old one. And it's very impractical. I mean, 441 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: you had to carry water up from the river up 442 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: to the top of the hill, and if you've gone 443 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 2: to Monticello lately, it's a zigzag drive. I mean, it 444 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,719 Speaker 2: can't have been easy for the slaves who had to 445 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,959 Speaker 2: do this work to bring all the water up there. 446 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: In any case, Yeah, Jefferson exerted power softly. It was fascinating. 447 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 2: He opposes Washington on many things. He writes a few 448 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 2: lines about how people who've been Samson's in the field 449 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,959 Speaker 2: have been shorn and so forth after his retirement as 450 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: Secretary of State, which Washington takes as a personal comment 451 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 2: on Washington and never speaks to him again, after they've 452 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: been intimates for many years of exchange, farming, comments, and 453 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 2: so forth. When he becomes president, he uses the navy 454 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: that Washington and Hamilton had built to form against the 455 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: Barbary pirates. He uses the National Bank, which he had opposed, 456 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 2: to finance the Louisiana purchase. He suppresses his qualms. He 457 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 2: uses Washington's method of requiring written communications constantly from his subordinates. 458 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: Article two of the Constitutions says all executive power will 459 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: being a president. Both Washington and Jefferson made sure that 460 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 2: their subordinates were doing what he wanted them to do, 461 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: and keeping track of every step, so he worked hard. 462 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: In Jefferson's case, he used charm. He hated confrontation personally, 463 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 2: he had charm. He could talk about a million subjects, 464 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 2: and he cultivated this from the time he was at 465 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: William and Mary. He spent time with his favorite teacher, 466 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: William Small, with the governor of Virginia, Francis fock Here, 467 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 2: and George with the great constitutional scholar of colonial and 468 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 2: then early Republican Virginia. These older men would include Jomas 469 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: Jefferson at their table. He was charming enough that he 470 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: got continual dinner invitations and regaling them with his natural 471 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 2: history discoveries and things. Even while he was working very 472 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: hard in studying and so forth. He was charming people. 473 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: And he does this charm as president. He invites people 474 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: to dinner. He doesn't go up on Capitol Hill. He 475 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 2: doesn't appear publicly. He doesn't make public speeches after his 476 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: inaugural which oh, nobody can really hear very well. They 477 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 2: read the written report, but they invited to dinner. He 478 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 2: wears bedroom slippers and old clothes. He's sort of imitating 479 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: what his predecessor in Paris, Benjamin Franklin, did, which is 480 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 2: dressed in informally so put. Everybody kind of be the 481 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 2: exotic American, the exotic farmer, frontiersman wearing his slippers to dinner. 482 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 2: And he's got fine French wines. He spent a fortune 483 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 2: on importing French wine by hundreds of cases. He reveals 484 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 2: them with all this talk. He assembles them his own party. 485 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: He assembles by groups, each one living in their own 486 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 2: boarding house. Because the boarding house groups were little cliques 487 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: of the opposition members whom he also invites. He invites 488 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: different ones from different boarding houses. He's trying to split 489 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 2: them up, and he kind of lets them know offhandedly, 490 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: without really talking politics much, what he wants and he 491 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,959 Speaker 2: gets it. In the historian Forrest MacDonald, he says Jefferson 492 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: was the first six years of his presidency by sort 493 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 2: of quiet control. He gets everything he wants from Congress. 494 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 2: They do his will without even being asked to do so. Molliant, 495 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: He says, what Jefferson liked to do was he liked 496 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 2: to arrange people's lives. He was helpful, he was a mallient. 497 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 2: He would solve their problems. Manicello was designed with these 498 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 2: small rooms up above. Many mostly women, were there and 499 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: so forth. He said he would solve their problems, he 500 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 2: would arrange their life in every way. He only asked 501 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: one thing in return, total adoration, and he got it. 502 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: It's a great line. Let me ask you about one 503 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: thing which did surprise me. You include Albert Gallaton, who, 504 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: of course was an extraordinary sect of the Treasury. But 505 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: why was he one of the six? 506 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 2: I got interested in Gallaton, and I think in part 507 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: because of the maps one of the things that Albert 508 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 2: Gallatin did for Jefferson. In many ways, Gallaton was sort 509 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,239 Speaker 2: of figure in Congress. He joins Madison and Jefferson in 510 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: opposing Hamilton's financial measures. That is, Secretary of the Treasury. 511 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: He kind of uses them to put through and he 512 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 2: sees that they're useful, and he sees that Hamilton was 513 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 2: not corrump, but was efficient, and he tells Jefferson that, 514 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 2: which is not what Jefferson wants to hear. He's the 515 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 2: one that kind of links the two parties programs more 516 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,959 Speaker 2: than anybody else. But Jefferson says, we've got to do 517 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 2: something about tying this country together. And Gallatin they pass 518 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 2: a resolution in the Senate. Gallaton issues a report in 519 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 2: eighteen oh seven, when the government's going to run out 520 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 2: of money because Jefferson's embargo of trade cuts off the 521 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: tariff money, which is the main financing of the government. 522 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: But he provides a transportation plan for a series of 523 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 2: canals and roads through the Appalachian Mountains, foreseeing something like 524 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: the Erie Canal, seeing canals avoiding the falls. There's the 525 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 2: falls of the Ohio River at Louisville, which he circles around. 526 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 2: In other places, navigation on the Mississippi River. He foreshadows 527 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 2: twentieth century things, the Inner Coastal Waterway US one and 528 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 2: I ninety five. He wants to talk about from Maine 529 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,719 Speaker 2: to Georgia and so forth. He had a vision of 530 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 2: the country that goes westward, but also that ties it 531 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 2: together in various specific ways. This is never entirely built. 532 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 2: The one part that's most built is the National Road, 533 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 2: which follows to some extent Washington's trip over the canal. 534 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 2: You can take it if you follow I seventy in 535 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: US forty these days through western Maryland, in West Virginia 536 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 2: and then into Pennsylvania. You can follow that. It's I 537 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 2: seventy in US forty. So that's why I included Gallatin 538 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: He goes on to live till eighteen forty nine. He 539 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 2: really is the negotiator who holds together the group of 540 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 2: negotiators including John Quincy Adams and Henry Clay in the 541 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 2: Treaty of Ghent, after which is the treaty that ends 542 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 2: the War of eighteen twelve. But he uses his connection 543 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 2: with a man named Alexander Baring, London banker Bearing brothers. 544 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 2: He sends letters to Bearing, and Bearing says, well, the 545 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 2: British cabinet actually is probably willing to settle for this 546 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,959 Speaker 2: and that for much less than they're asking for now, 547 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 2: because the Duke of Wellington was offered a command in 548 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 2: North America and he said he wanted no part of it, 549 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 2: and it seemed like a bad enterprise. So we're going 550 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 2: to settle. So he used his contact with the British banker. 551 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 2: So he's part of international finance. It's kind of an 552 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 2: interesting segu He ends up in his seventies. His late seventies, 553 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 2: he compiles a dictionary of American Indian languages. I mean, 554 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 2: how can you not like a guy does things like that. 555 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: Michael, want to thank you for joining me. You bring 556 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: back many fond memories of conversations over four decades. I 557 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: want to remind our listeners the year new book Mental 558 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 1: Maps of the Founders, How Geographic Imagination Guide in America's 559 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: Revolutionary Leaders is available on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. 560 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: As always, having a chance to listen to you and 561 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: to learn from you is a remarkable experience. 562 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much, Nude. I've been listening to 563 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 2: you and learning from you for forty some years and 564 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 2: it's a pleasure to do so here on this podcast. 565 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,479 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Michael Baron. You can learn 566 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: more about his new book, Mental Maps of the Founders 567 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is 568 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 1: produced by Gagish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 569 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: is Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork 570 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,720 Speaker 1: for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks 571 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: to the team at Ganglish three sixty. If you've been 572 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and 573 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: both rate us with five stars and give us a 574 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,280 Speaker 1: review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, 575 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: listeners of newt World can sign up from my three 576 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: free weekly columns at Gangwishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 577 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich See his newtalkh