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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: We had begun our jury selection process this morning, but

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Speaker 1: I've been informed that there is a change of flea.

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Speaker 2: For the second time in as many days, a lawyer

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Speaker 2: for Donald Trump took a plea on Friday in a

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Speaker 2: case accusing the former president and eighteen others of racketeering

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Speaker 2: as part of a scheme to keep Trump in power

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Speaker 2: after he lost the twenty twenty election.

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Speaker 1: How do you plead to count fifteen conspiracy to commit

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Speaker 1: filing false documents in indictment number two three sc one

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Speaker 1: eight eight, nine four seven guilty.

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Speaker 2: Kenneth Chesbro's plea to one felony charge came as jury

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Speaker 2: selection was getting underway in the trial, and a day

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Speaker 2: after fellow attorney Sidney Powell entered her own guilty plea

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Speaker 2: to six misdemeanor counts. The two guilty pleas, along with

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Speaker 2: a third from a bail bondsman last month, are victories

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Speaker 2: for a Fulton County District attorney, Finie Willis. The question

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Speaker 2: is how significant you're to answer? That question? Is Michael

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Speaker 2: Moore of Moore Hall, the former US attorney for the

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Speaker 2: Middle District of Georgia. So Michael, just how significant are

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Speaker 2: these three Please?

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Speaker 1: Well, anytime that there is a plea agreement where co

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Speaker 1: defendants agree to testify against a key defendant, that's a

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Speaker 1: big deal. But when you look at this endictment and

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Speaker 1: you look at the charges and specific the defendants who

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Speaker 1: have pled guilty, I'm not sure that this gets the

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Speaker 1: DA much further down the road. And really, this is

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Speaker 1: why the charges that Sidney Powell pled to were basically

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Speaker 1: dealing with a Coffee County issue and that part of

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Speaker 1: the state, and whether or not somebody access some voting

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Speaker 1: machines down there to do a review and whether or

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Speaker 1: not that was proper, I'm not sure anybody will ever

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Speaker 1: be able to put that directly back on the former president.

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Speaker 1: When you look at the chessbro plea, he pleaded guilty

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Speaker 1: to charges surrounding the fake electors. And remember it was

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Speaker 1: really his legal memos that sort of set up the

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Speaker 1: idea of using this alternate slate of electors. And so

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Speaker 1: I think the former president would be able to say

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Speaker 1: I've relied on his advice and he told me what

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Speaker 1: to do, and you know, he was a lawyer, and

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Speaker 1: you know this kind of thing and they've done it

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Speaker 1: in Hawaii and it is different. But I just don't

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Speaker 1: know how far that goes. So there is some significance,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's always useful information. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you think about a puzzle, you'd have to put all

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Speaker 1: the pieces together to see it. This is simply a

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Speaker 1: couple of pieces. But I think the DA will have

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Speaker 1: access to it may frankly become more useful to the

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Speaker 1: federal prosecution given what we know about that case, and

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Speaker 1: in that case it's a much more tailored type prosecution

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Speaker 1: with Trump as the defendant. And there may be some

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Speaker 1: information that Ms Powell has about individual meetings that she

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Speaker 1: had with the former president to give some context to

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Speaker 1: some of the allegations that special counsel is making. So

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Speaker 1: I don't think it was necessarily a game changer for

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Speaker 1: Fulton County, but it may be useful in Washington in

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Speaker 1: that case.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I have a lot of questions. The first is, so,

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Speaker 2: for Bonnie Willis, was it really critical to avoid going

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Speaker 2: to trial with these two defendants and showcasing her evidence

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Speaker 2: to Trump? So was it more about that than it

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Speaker 2: was about the evidence they specifically might have?

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Speaker 1: I think so, I mean if you look at the

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Speaker 1: idea of having to put a case on to preview

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Speaker 1: the case and the complete book of evidence, if you will,

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Speaker 1: for a more critical defendant. I don't think there was

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Speaker 1: any question that she didn't want to do that in

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Speaker 1: this case. And so to the extent that these two

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Speaker 1: defendants filed for some relief under the Speedy Trial Act

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Speaker 1: in the State of Georgia, which meant their case had

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Speaker 1: to be tried and started at least jury selected in October,

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Speaker 1: I think that put the DA a little bit under

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Speaker 1: the gun, and these were not two defendants were the

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Speaker 1: greatest cases that she wanted to go with first. So

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Speaker 1: what we saw then is a plea offer made. And

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Speaker 1: it's not uncommon for people to make plea offers. That's

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Speaker 1: sort of just playbook stuff for prosecutors. But we saw

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Speaker 1: a plea offer made that really was pretty insignificant. What

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Speaker 1: we saw obviously will misdemeanor please for miss Powell, and

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Speaker 1: a felony plea dealing with file and a paper and

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Speaker 1: preparing a paper for mister Chesbrook, both receiving probation, both

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Speaker 1: apparently being able to maintain their first defender of status

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Speaker 1: and so they'll have no criminal conviction at all, both

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Speaker 1: could vote, and both those kinds of things that we

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Speaker 1: think about often following a criminal conviction, those won't be

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Speaker 1: in place for them. So to think about this is

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Speaker 1: that these were the architects, or the masterminds, if you will,

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Speaker 1: of the big election scheme and the fraud, the big life.

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Speaker 1: The sentence of probation was pretty meager, especially then when

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Speaker 1: you stack that up against the sentences that we've seen

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Speaker 1: for some of the January the sixth defendants, who while

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Speaker 1: clearly that was at least it might beinion an insurrection

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Speaker 1: effort and an effort to go in and recav it

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Speaker 1: at the Capitol, but you're seeing many many of them

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Speaker 1: get jail time, which you have the people who came

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Speaker 1: up or who were responsible at least for the theories

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Speaker 1: and the stories that may have been the catalyst for

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Speaker 1: that day. They're getting dis demain or promoted sentences. So

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Speaker 1: it seems a lot, and that tells me that it

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Speaker 1: was likely that did not want this to be the

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Speaker 1: case that she put forward first. It also tells me

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Speaker 1: that now the judge will have another he had blocked

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Speaker 1: off I believe five months for the trial. This gives

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Speaker 1: some ability for them to maneuver and try to put

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Speaker 1: if they can squeeze another group of dependents in somewhere

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Speaker 1: in the first half of next year. I think you'll

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Speaker 1: see some effort to do that.

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Speaker 2: Sidney Powell did have a lot of contact direct contact

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Speaker 2: with Trump, including that infamous Oval Office meeting where there

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Speaker 2: was screaming on December eighteenth of twenty twenty. So wouldn't

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Speaker 2: she be called at least to testify about her contacts

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Speaker 2: with Trump?

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Speaker 1: I think so, And I think she would do that

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Speaker 1: in the chords with the terms of any type of

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Speaker 1: pleague group. The question will be what information does she

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Speaker 1: give The help will really to prove in the rest

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Speaker 1: of the prosecution's case. And so she may say was

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Speaker 1: at the meeting and I was given my advice, and

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Speaker 1: people that the grove my advice that became heated. That

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean it's a criminal charge. So I think

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Speaker 1: she's looking at and they're probably considering her a being

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Speaker 1: a witness to again sort of give context to what

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Speaker 1: happened without necessarily being a key codefendant. Think about a

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Speaker 1: bank robbery case and you send your accomplice out to

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Speaker 1: buy the guns while you go steal the car. It's

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Speaker 1: going to be the getaway car, and then you meet

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Speaker 1: back at a certain place, you go in rob the bank. Well,

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Speaker 1: clearly there's a great testimony to be had by one

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Speaker 1: defendant there against the other about what their role may

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Speaker 1: have been. I don't know, And frankly, we just don't know,

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Speaker 1: because there are parts of this case that we don't

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Speaker 1: have a complete vision to yet. But we don't know

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Speaker 1: how much information she has to directly sort of point

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Speaker 1: the finger Trump. There may be other people in the campaign.

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Speaker 1: There may be other people that were there at that meeting.

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Speaker 1: There may be other folks who she had contact with

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Speaker 1: about you know, we're going to look at these election

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Speaker 1: machines and that information be relevant, but it may not

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Speaker 1: be sort of the silver bullet that folks thought it

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Speaker 1: might be.

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Speaker 2: Jess Brow's lawyer said his client had agreed to testify

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Speaker 2: against other co defendants, but he would be surprised if

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Speaker 2: you were called as a witness in any future case.

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Speaker 2: He didn't snitch on anyone. He simply decided it was

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Speaker 2: time for him to put this behind him and go

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Speaker 2: on with his life. I mean, he didn't snitch on anyone.

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Speaker 1: Well, that can be and I mean so somebody can

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Speaker 1: plead to an act. They could plead to conduct and

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Speaker 1: say yes, I did this, and while I may not

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Speaker 1: have believed that was wrong, you're telling me government that

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Speaker 1: was wrong. I did the conduct, so you charge me

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Speaker 1: with doing the act. So in this case, doing the

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Speaker 1: paperwork or whatever for the alternati electors. So I did that.

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Speaker 1: If you're saying that's wrong, yes I did it, and

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Speaker 1: rather than go to trial, I'll let or so plea

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Speaker 1: and I'll testify that in fact I did it. But

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that that person has to have changed

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Speaker 1: their mind or changed their theory about why they So

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Speaker 1: you oftentimes see the defendants say, well, the government's got me.

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Speaker 1: I did this. In fact, I did what they're saying.

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Speaker 1: I had my own reasons for it, but this is

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Speaker 1: what I did it, and I do want to put

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Speaker 1: this behind me. I don't know how it could be

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Speaker 1: the I mean, he may not have snitched directly on somebody,

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Speaker 1: but I think his testimony could come in and be

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Speaker 1: problematic for defendants certainly. So he may not have said, well,

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Speaker 1: John Doe, and I went to the printer and printed

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Speaker 1: these things off. You know, that would be directly snitching

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Speaker 1: on John Doe, but he may talk about the calls

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Speaker 1: that he made, the efforts that he had, the discussions

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Speaker 1: that he had to sort of implement this alternate slate

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Speaker 1: of electors. And at that point, and it's up to

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Speaker 1: the Trier fact which will likely be a jury to

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Speaker 1: decide whether or not those other defendants be off what

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Speaker 1: they did, based in part, at least upon some testimony

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Speaker 1: that print may give.

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Speaker 2: I was wondering if Chesburrow's testimony would actually be more

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Speaker 2: dangerous for Johnny Spent or Rudy Giuliani, the other lawyers

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Speaker 2: in the case.

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Speaker 1: It could, and I thought his case was particularly unusual

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Speaker 1: in sense that you did have a lawyer charge of

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Speaker 1: criminal conduct for writing legal memoranium. And I think that

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Speaker 1: can be problematic and maybe a foreboding sign to other

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Speaker 1: lawyers who are charged in the case. You know, simply

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Speaker 1: because somebody has played guilty doesn't mean that they now

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Speaker 1: believe that the election was completely legitimate. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's maybe what people are thinking when they think about

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Speaker 1: the import of these particular pleas, like somehow these folks

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Speaker 1: have had a you know, come to Jesus moment and

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Speaker 1: have decided that everything they've ever done was wrong, and

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Speaker 1: it was all off or aught, And so they're entering

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Speaker 1: their plea that may not in fact be the case.

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Speaker 1: They're required to acknowledge their criminal conduct or conduct in

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Speaker 1: a criminal case, but they're not necessarily required to give

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Speaker 1: up personally held beliefs, and so it may become it

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Speaker 1: may very become a fine life or prosecutor to walk

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Speaker 1: on with orn. I decided to call this witness because

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Speaker 1: they may say something that rings true with some potential juror,

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Speaker 1: or they may say something that puts a cloud over

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Speaker 1: my allegations against another defend that you're that type of thing.

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Speaker 1: And so that's why I say that it's always significant

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Speaker 1: to have co defendants flea, but it's not necessarily the

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Speaker 1: end of the case by any stretch of the imagination.

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Speaker 2: Coming up, we'll talk about the implications for the federal case.

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Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg attorney kennef Chesbro pleaded guilty to a

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Speaker 2: felony on Friday, just as jury selection was getting under

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Speaker 2: way and his trial on charges accusing him of participating

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Speaker 2: in efforts to overturn Donald Trump's loss in the twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty election in Georgia. His plea came a day after

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Speaker 2: fellow attorney Sidney Powell, who'd been scheduled to go to

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Speaker 2: trial alongside him, entered her own guilty plea to six

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Speaker 2: misdemeanor counts. I've been talking to Michael Moore of Moore Hall.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned the Special Council's case. These two are also

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Speaker 2: co conspirators. I think it's three to five in the

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Speaker 2: Special Council's election interference case. Do you think the defense

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Speaker 2: has been in touch with the Special Council? I mean,

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Speaker 2: do you plead in a state case when you have

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Speaker 2: exposure in a federal case.

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Speaker 1: I would think there has had to have been some discussions.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but I also think there have been some

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Speaker 1: discussions between state prosecutors and federal prosecutors. You know that's

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Speaker 1: been pretty much disavowed. If they had any discussions, that

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Speaker 1: strikes me as strange and frankly out of the norm.

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Speaker 1: So I would hope and expect that there was some

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Speaker 1: discussion about how these defendants would move forward in the

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Speaker 1: face and sort of the second Acts that was hanging

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Speaker 1: over their head, and that'd be in the federal case,

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Speaker 1: so I do think. And then they may be called

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Speaker 1: to give testimony. And one thing to remember is they

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Speaker 1: are on probation in their own state probation here, Well,

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Speaker 1: one thing you can't do while your own probation has

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Speaker 1: commit other crimes. And so it would be a fool's

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Speaker 1: errand for them to go out and try to give

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Speaker 1: perjured testimony or false testimony in another court proceeding, especially

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Speaker 1: one in a federal court somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Do you think the Special Council will try to give

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Speaker 2: them a deal or will end up indicting them based

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Speaker 2: on what they've pleaded to here.

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Speaker 1: It would not surprise me if he simply tried to

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Speaker 1: give them some immunity for some testimony. And I say

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Speaker 1: that because it seems apparent to me the problems that

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Speaker 1: have been created by having a huge case with this

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Speaker 1: many defendants in Georgia into this Rico case. And I

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Speaker 1: think you saw Jack Smith's case, the Special Characters case

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Speaker 1: more narrowly tailored. And I think he recognizes, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't necessarily need to put all the menas in

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Speaker 1: the sea if I'm just going after the big fish

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Speaker 1: in my case. And I think that's that's what we're seeing.

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Speaker 1: So I expect that they will use the leverage they

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Speaker 1: have over these dependents because of their probation and otherwise

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Speaker 1: to get them into a trupal testimony. I also think

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Speaker 1: you here in at some point acknowledge some type of

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Speaker 1: arrangement for their testimony he's made through their law game.

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Speaker 2: I've heard a lot that, you know, flipping encourages more

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Speaker 2: flipping encourages more flipping. Do you buy that that after

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Speaker 2: these three are going to see more.

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Speaker 1: I think we're going to see more. But I don't

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Speaker 1: know that I attribute it just because somebody flipped. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, typically when you start flipping people on the

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Speaker 1: low end, there's not a lot of It's like tipping

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Speaker 1: over the dominoes at the end of the line. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's just not a lot of movement after that. But

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Speaker 1: when you do tip a domino over, that's you know,

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Speaker 1: near the front of the line, that can make a

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Speaker 1: difference proposed further down. You may see a few people plead.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, frankly, I really think that it was

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Speaker 1: the idea that you know, and if I were advising

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Speaker 1: these particular fits, it would have been, Look, can you

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Speaker 1: admit to this conduct? They're asking you to admit to it.

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Speaker 1: That answer is yes, you're getting a misdemeanor. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's basically like a steam ticket at Georgia. You know,

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Speaker 1: they may be stacked on top of each other and

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Speaker 1: you're going to get twelve months probation for each one.

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Speaker 1: But it's a misdemeanor. In miss Powerce case, in mister

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Speaker 1: Chessbrow's case, you know it's a felony, but you're not

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Speaker 1: gonna have a record because you can obey yourself with

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Speaker 1: certain first offendit of protection and that type of thing,

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Speaker 1: and so you know you can get this behind you.

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Speaker 1: And the fines were nominal. I mean, they got to

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Speaker 1: write a letter of apology, you know, this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that that's that was something that I

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Speaker 1: feel like particularly compelling and the bi but okay, and

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Speaker 1: so it really was by all standards, I think a

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Speaker 1: good deal for these defendants to be able to basically

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Speaker 1: turn the page on this chapter. And so I don't

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Speaker 1: know that other defendants may get the same type of offer.

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Speaker 1: I think the strategic move to file the speedy trial

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Speaker 1: demand played into the decision here, the fact that this

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Speaker 1: case is going to have to be tried. I think

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Speaker 1: all of this stuff was in the mix in the

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Speaker 1: state was willing to essentially let these two go, and

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Speaker 1: frankly too, because I think it was a tougher case.

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Speaker 1: When you have lawyers sitting as defendants, you have unique

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Speaker 1: legal defenses that can be raised, and those are things

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Speaker 1: that the state may not want to deal with at

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Speaker 1: this point of the case, especially when they're looking at

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Speaker 1: other council like Eastman, Julian at that type of thing.

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Speaker 2: So then you think, bottom line, Trump doesn't have that

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Speaker 2: much more to fear because these two flipped.

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Speaker 1: Well, like I said, kind of at the houseset, it's

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Speaker 1: never a good day or a defendant to have is

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Speaker 1: or her co defendants flipped and start entering guilty please.

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Speaker 1: And Trump has been sort of masterful in the way

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Speaker 1: he is controlled I think some witness and potential co defendants,

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Speaker 1: both by paying legal fees and you know, raising money

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Speaker 1: for him doing this kind of thing, And that is

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Speaker 1: one way I think he's trying to kind of keep

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Speaker 1: his timb on folks. But so I do think he

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Speaker 1: always has something to fear, and I think he has

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Speaker 1: to be thinking at this point, you know, I hope

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Speaker 1: this is the end. I don't think these folks are

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Speaker 1: going to hurt me, but I still need to be

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Speaker 1: aware of the possibility that other people who I may

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Speaker 1: not have as much influence with, they may in fact decide,

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Speaker 1: you know, that they're going to come forward with some

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Speaker 1: other you know, some of them more daming testimony. Ms

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Speaker 1: Powell's charges were so limited in the indictment, and you know,

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Speaker 1: this was a very thorough indictment. And have they had

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Speaker 1: some additional overt acts? Have they had some additional predicate

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Speaker 1: acts that impacted her? I think we would have seen

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Speaker 1: that spelled out in the DA's case. But the allegations

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Speaker 1: that they made against Ms Powell were sort of specific

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Speaker 1: as it related to this incident in Coffee County, Georgia.

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Speaker 1: The allegations against mister Chessbro, of course dealt with a

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Speaker 1: very new position relating to the alternative electors. Again, both

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Speaker 1: somewhat removed, I think from the former president. You know,

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Speaker 1: there'll be a unique argument. I think that you will

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Speaker 1: hear and it will be a defense. I think you

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Speaker 1: may be seeing it somewhat now from Trump saying that

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Speaker 1: he wasn't represented by Sidney Powell. We may have in fact,

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Speaker 1: now we may be seeing sort of the technical niceties

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Speaker 1: of who is the actual client. Is that Trump is

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Speaker 1: an individual? Is it or is it the Trump campaign

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Speaker 1: which Trump is not named as an individual, or is

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Speaker 1: it you know, another organization, And so we may start

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Speaker 1: seeing those maneuverings as well. It'll will be instancy who

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Speaker 1: Princess Mistyles says she was representing in a particular tie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was wondering when he said that she didn't

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Speaker 2: represent him. So where does that put his advice of

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Speaker 2: council defense? I mean, also, if all these people are pleading,

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Speaker 2: all his attorneys are pleading on him, are almost Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a great that's a great question, and

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Speaker 1: I think it is also so maybe indicative of some

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Speaker 1: of the problems that we may see prosecutors have down

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Speaker 1: the road or jurors have as they think about the

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Speaker 1: case that is in the case and ultimately a pelic

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Speaker 1: courts on when you charge a president who basically is

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Speaker 1: a person sitting in an office that's getting advice from everybody, lawyer's,

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Speaker 1: non lawyer's, cabinet people, chiefs of staff, you know, but

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Speaker 1: the lawyers are coming in telling them what to do.

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Speaker 1: Does that mean he can't readily rely on that for

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Speaker 1: fear that he may They didn't represent him individually, but

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Speaker 1: they represented something to somebody that he may have been

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Speaker 1: associated with, or a group he may have been associated with.

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Speaker 1: Does that mean that he loses that defense. I don't

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Speaker 1: think he does, because I think sort of the executive

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Speaker 1: privilege umbrella is made in fact to sort of cover

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Speaker 1: this very situation where you have advice coming from different people.

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Speaker 1: But it's a great point, and I think again it's

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Speaker 1: relevant because of the unique nature of this case and

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Speaker 1: bringing charges, especially the state charges against a former president

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Speaker 1: for conduct that occurred while he was a sitting president

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Speaker 1: of the United States, enjoying in fact that privilege. So

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Speaker 1: that's a question that I thank you. May find nine

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Speaker 1: folks and all a nice bench in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: Making a decision about it.

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Speaker 2: Some point sounds about right, Thanks so much, Michael. That's

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Speaker 2: Michael Moore of Moore Hall, the former US attorney for

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Speaker 2: the Middle District of Georgia. Coming up next, Migrant numbers

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Speaker 2: are reaching new highs at the southern border. I'm June

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Speaker 2: Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg.

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Speaker 3: From day one, this administration is made clear that a

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Speaker 3: border wall is not the answer. That remains our position,

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Speaker 3: and our position has never wavered.

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Speaker 2: Despite that statement from Homeland Security Secretary Alejandra Majorcis about

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Speaker 2: two weeks ago. The Biden administration has made the confusing

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Speaker 2: decision to build up to twenty miles of border wall

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Speaker 2: authorized during the Trump administration. President Biden is also asking

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Speaker 2: Congress for eleven billion dollars for border security and migration

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Speaker 2: matters as part of the one hundred billion dollar request

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Speaker 2: to support Israel and Ukraine. The migration challenges facing the

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Speaker 2: US are increasing, with record numbers of migrants at the

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Speaker 2: southern border. Arrest for illegal crossings were up twenty one

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Speaker 2: percent last month to two hundred and nineteen thousand. Joining

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Speaker 2: me is immigration law expertly on Fresco, a partner at

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Speaker 2: Holland and Knight. There were more migrant encounters last month

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Speaker 2: than in any month last year. So whatever the Biden

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Speaker 2: administration is doing is not working.

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Speaker 1: Is it.

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Speaker 4: No? Unfortunately, the problem is everything happens through a sort

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Speaker 4: of trial and error experimentation process, and when people saw

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Speaker 4: that at the end of the day, the legal pathways

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Speaker 4: were taking too long. And even though there are legal pathways,

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Speaker 4: and it's just to give the Bide the administration credits

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Speaker 4: for the two legal pathways they created, which number one

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Speaker 4: A parole program that allows you to apply online and

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Speaker 4: if you are from Cuba eighty Nicaragri, Venezuela, you can

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Speaker 4: potentially win one of thirty thousand monthly plots to come

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Speaker 4: in or what's called the CBP one app appointment system

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Speaker 4: where you actually show up in an orderly fashion for

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Speaker 4: the court of Entry. Those are great new innovations, but

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Speaker 4: because each of them takes too long and is not

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Speaker 4: guarantee to actually lead to either an appointment or a plot,

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Speaker 4: people have decided to take matters into their own hands,

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Speaker 4: and the consequences of doing that are insignificant because just

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Speaker 4: the fact that you're banned from asylum ten years from

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Speaker 4: now when your case finally gets the immigration court doesn't

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Speaker 4: seem to matter to people because they can still a

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Speaker 4: get something called withholding of removal, which is less than

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Speaker 4: asylum allows them to say, but me, some significant percentage

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Speaker 4: of this group isn't looking to actually show up the

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Speaker 4: immigration court at the end of the day, but it's

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Speaker 4: just looking to be in America and bide their time.

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Speaker 4: And so from that perspective, that's what we're seeing. We're

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Speaker 4: now seeing that that trial and error period has failed,

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Speaker 4: and people realize that the unlawful route is still the route,

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Speaker 4: unfortunately that pays the best civity.

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Speaker 2: In his address last Thursday, President Biden said he'd be

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Speaker 2: requesting one hundred billion dollars in emergency aid for the

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Speaker 2: southern border and international ally facing crises. What would that

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Speaker 2: be used for? And is that just a drop in

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Speaker 2: the bucket in this problem.

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Speaker 4: The problem is that all of the money that goes

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Speaker 4: down to the southern border doesn't change the legal framework

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Speaker 4: of things. It goes toward the more expedited housing processing

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Speaker 4: and transferring into the interior of the country of the

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Speaker 4: people who make a credible asylum plate. And so that's

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Speaker 4: the problem is at the end of the day, that

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Speaker 4: money is really going to make the process smoother. But

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Speaker 4: people are complaining that the point of this is not

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Speaker 4: to make the process smoother, it's to try to actually

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Speaker 4: make it so that only people with the most credible

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Speaker 4: possible asylum cases actually end up entering the interior of

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Speaker 4: the United States, and that money can't go to that

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Speaker 4: because the law doesn't permit that at the moment. The

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Speaker 4: law says, if you articulate any credible fear of asylum,

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Speaker 4: you have to be let into the interior of the country.

438
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 4: And so all that this money does is get that

439
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 4: initial processing period faster and more efficiently handled for people.

440
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 2: Leon you know, in the law, everything's subject to interpretation,

441
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 2: So could the interpretation of what is a credible fear

442
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 2: be changed to require more?

443
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 4: So what happens is that does happen to a degree,

444
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 4: And so you've seen over the course of I would say,

445
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 4: the last decade, depending on when these crises get worse

446
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 4: or better, they issue these memos that basically rearticulate, in

447
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 4: a sort of subtle manner bear Uscis asylum officer, A

448
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,959
Speaker 4: credible fear does not include this, it includes this, et cetera.

449
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 4: And the problem is that that moves the needle. And

450
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 4: let's say, instead of eighty percent of the claims being successful,

451
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 4: we now see there's actually been a reduction sixty percent

452
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 4: of the claims being successful. But we're talking about sixty

453
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 4: percent of two hundred thousand people coming into the country,

454
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 4: and so people won't feel that numerically because it's still

455
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 4: one hundred and forty thousand people, which if you were

456
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 4: to do that on an annualized basis, is still nearly

457
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 4: two million people. And so that's the problem that they're

458
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 4: running up again, is they actually are dialing it up

459
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 4: as much as possible. But even within that comfine unless

460
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 4: you were to do something illegal and just start wholeheartedly

461
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 4: banning people saying that nobody's claim as credible. People generally

462
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 4: are coached who say the right words that will articulate

463
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 4: the credible fear claim for whatever country they're from, and

464
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 4: so it's very hard to shut it down completely. But

465
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 4: you have seen it dialed up, but again you're dialing

466
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 4: it up from a percentage standpoint of a march larger numerator,

467
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 4: and so eighty percent of one hundred thousand was still

468
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 4: less than sixty percent of two hundred thousand.

469
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 2: Let's turn to the H one B visas, which allow

470
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 2: employers to add foreign workers with specialized skills for up

471
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: to two to three years, with options to extend the

472
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: status further when visa holders are in the process of

473
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 2: applying for permanent residency. So dement on that program has

474
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 2: far exceeded the eighty five thousand new visas that are

475
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: available annually. Registrations for the annual lottery exceeded seven hundred

476
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: and forty thousand for twenty twenty four. Tell us about

477
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: the changes that the Department of Homelands Security is proposing.

478
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 4: Well, the main change that they're going to implement is

479
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 4: that when this lottery system was established in the lottery

480
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 4: system has been around for quite a while, but the

481
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 4: lottery system used to just be a one for one

482
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 4: situation where one company would apply for one employee because

483
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 4: it was too expensive for multiple companies to apply for

484
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 4: the same employee because you actually had to put in

485
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 4: the entire visa application package and support evidence and affidavis

486
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 4: and everything else, and that was about a ten thousand

487
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 4: dollars expense for employers, so multiple employers didn't want to

488
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 4: do that for the same person. But the Trump administration

489
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 4: changed this process and said, instead of having to put

490
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 4: the whole application in upfront, just put your name, address, date,

491
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 4: pass for a number of very simple data and then

492
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 4: if you win, we'll ask you to come forward and

493
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 4: put in the entire three hundred PA each application. The

494
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 4: odor is process. Okay, that's great, and it found efficient,

495
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 4: but everything has trained out some life, and so what

496
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 4: happened was because it became so easy and so cheap

497
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 4: to put in applications, what happened was companies, not the

498
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 4: larger tech companies, not the Googles and Intels and ciscos

499
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 4: of the world, but these sort of smaller tech companies

500
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 4: that might have fifty one hundred employees that are these

501
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 4: sort of you know, family owned type tech companies decided

502
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 4: to basically fool their resources together and form maybe blocks

503
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 4: of one hundred two hundred companies where they would all

504
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 4: apply for the exact same list of ten thousand workers

505
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 4: from India, let's say. And then, however those workers ended

506
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 4: up getting selected from whichever companies they just transferred them

507
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 4: to end up getting an even number of workers for

508
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 4: the companies. So that was radically gaining the system, and

509
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 4: it was creating many, many more applications that were actually

510
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 4: naturally desired. And so what this change does is this

511
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 4: change says you can only apply for a person one time,

512
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 4: meaning that person only has one chance to win the lottery.

513
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 4: They don't have sixty different chances to win the lottery.

514
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 4: But from there then they can go to any of

515
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 4: the employers that express an interest to them, which will

516
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 4: ultimately then give them more bargaining power visa v. Their

517
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,959
Speaker 4: ability to say, Okay, I just want a lottery slot,

518
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 4: so if you want to have me because I've won

519
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 4: a lottery slot, you can have me tack amongst the

520
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 4: employers which one you want. So it's changed the ballad

521
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 4: from the employers rigging the system to now a more

522
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 4: employee based chance to be a free agent, so to speak.

523
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: I guess we'll have to wait and see if it

524
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: changes the gaming of the system. New York City has

525
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: struggled to deal with the arrival of more than one

526
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty thousand aside islum seekers in the past year.

527
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: About sixty thousand are currently in shelters run by the city,

528
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: which is legally required to provide emergency housing to homeless people.

529
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: Mayor Eric Adams announced in July that New York City

530
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: would start giving adult migrants sixty days notice to move

531
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: out of city shelters, and about three thousand asylum seekers

532
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: have been told their time was up in the shelters,

533
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: but about half have reapplied to stay. I've been talking

534
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: to Leon Fresco, a partner to Holland a Knight. What

535
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 2: else can Adams do?

536
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 4: This is where as heartbreaking as people you know don't

537
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 4: want to do these types of things, the actual answer

538
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 4: for this, as it has always been in the history

539
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 4: of America until six months ago for whatever reason, is

540
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 4: that if a person does not have a fixed address

541
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 4: and doesn't have a place where the governments can actually

542
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 4: keep track of them, those individuals have to go into

543
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 4: IMS or ice house, not IMS, just be colloquial for

544
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 4: your listeners, ice custody so that their hearings can go

545
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 4: quickly and they can either succeed or not succeed. But

546
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 4: those people shouldn't be in shelter, they shouldn't be homeless,

547
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 4: they shouldn't be in the middle of the street. The

548
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 4: only people who should be leading ice custody are people

549
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 4: who have a sixth address and someone who's willing to

550
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 4: take quote unquote ownership or custody of the person make

551
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 4: sure that they'll show up the court and do the

552
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 4: things they need to do. And really, if we're talking

553
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 4: about more money for the Department of Homeland Security, that's

554
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 4: what it should be going for. And we're not saying

555
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 4: that people need to be in a prison. That's nobody

556
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 4: needs to do that, but you have to have them

557
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 4: in a facility where they can't leave and where their

558
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 4: case can then be adjudicated quickly, so that at that

559
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 4: point then either they get to stay and they can

560
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 4: start working immediately and they're not a drain on the society.

561
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 4: Or if they don't have an asylum plane, they can

562
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 4: be repatriated back to their home country.

563
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: But that would be the federal government doing that.

564
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 4: Right, that is true. But Adams I have not heard

565
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 4: him say I take the people into custody from my shelter.

566
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 4: I think he knows he'd be killed politically for saying that.

567
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 4: But that's what he needs to say, and that's going

568
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 4: to be the only solution of this problem. Is is

569
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 4: if you don't leave this shelter, you're going into ICE custody.

570
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 4: So you would need two things. You need Adams to

571
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 4: push for this, and you would need that ICE to

572
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 4: agree to it. But even if Ice doesn't agree to it,

573
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 4: just Adam pushing for it at least solves the problem

574
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 4: from his perspective because he can say, this is what

575
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 4: needs to happen, this is what has traditionally happened. I'm

576
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 4: not being cruel. Everybody who has come into America for

577
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 4: decades has known if you don't have a fixed address

578
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 4: or a fixed sponsor, you can't expect to be let

579
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 4: out of immigration. Something in New.

580
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: York City is challenging that right to shelter and trying

581
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: to get the requirements suspended, and apparently there are negotiations

582
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: going on in court.

583
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 4: And from the standpoint of let's say they succeed, so

584
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 4: what so now that people are let out in the

585
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 4: shelter and they're out on the street, that doesn't so much.

586
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 4: And so that's why the point is ICE needs to

587
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 4: at the front and not release people. And that's the

588
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 4: conversations Adams now has to have on the back end,

589
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 4: which is, if you did release people and now we

590
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 4: can't house them, then ICE us to come back and

591
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 4: have a conversation with these people. Do you really, really,

592
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 4: really really not have someone in the United States that

593
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 4: can sponsor you, because if you're not, then we're going

594
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 4: to have to put you back at immigration custody.

595
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: Mayor Adams also traveled to Mexico, apparently with the aim

596
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: of telling would be migrants not to come to New

597
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 2: York City. Do those kinds of trips and please ever work.

598
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 4: Here's the problem that message if don't come to America,

599
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 4: I'm the trek is dangerous isn't working because that's not

600
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 4: the world we live in anymore. It's not two thousand,

601
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 4: it's not two thousand and five. Right now, are getting

602
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 4: real time information on their phone that has the exact

603
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 4: questions the CBP is asking which locations on any given

604
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 4: day are staffs less or more, which positions, which kinds

605
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 4: of day you should come into, where's the least way

606
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 4: to get into the country. And with all of that,

607
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 4: people understand these are the ways to safely enter the

608
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 4: United States, and a politician saying don't come in is

609
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 4: not going to have any relevance to those individuals. What

610
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 4: we'll have relevance are the real time reports people are receiving,

611
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 4: and there's no way now in twenty twenty three to

612
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 4: block those real time reports. So the only way to

613
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 4: change the infrastructure of what's happening in the border is

614
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 4: to actually change the manner in which people are being

615
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 4: processed and have that word get out that looks spending

616
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 4: fifty thousand dollars is not leading anywhere because you're only

617
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 4: sucking the tention or you're only being put out into

618
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 4: Mexico while you wait for your case to be decided.

619
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 4: The results they hear is you're allowed to answer the

620
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 4: United States without any conditions other than to record month

621
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 4: from now that's not going to.

622
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: This or anyone, and we're sure to hear more and

623
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: more about immigration issues as campaigning picks up next year.

624
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Leon. That's Leon Fresco of Hollanden Night,

625
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: and that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show.

626
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on

627
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

628
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: and at www dot bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law,

629
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: And remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

630
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso

631
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: and you're listening to Bloomberg