WEBVTT - Logan Ury 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.600 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.880 My guest today is Logan Jurie, author of the book 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:21.799 How To Not Die Alone, and director of Relationship Science 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:25.480 at Hinge. Logan, good to have you on the podcast. Hey, 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.400 thank you for having me. Okay, first question, is there 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:33.600 a lid for every pot? I don't know. I don't 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.480 think so necessarily. I feel like maybe there's a few 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.159 lids for one pot, and I don't really believe in 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.279 the one. I don't believe in soulmates. I feel like 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.239 there's a lot of people that we could make a 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:46.279 life with, and it's really up to us what kind 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.120 of life we want to live, and we can choose 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.360 different people for that. I'm actually looking for the reverse, uh, 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:57.000 not the person who's necessarily looking for the best match, 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:00.920 but people who believe there's they're never gonna fine love, 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:05.040 there's not somebody out there for them. It's an interesting question. 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.200 I just sent out my email newsletter today and it 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:11.759 was about finding a penthouse person or a basement person. 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:14.280 So a penthouse person is somebody who lifts you up, 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:17.040 they energize you, they make you feel your best. A 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.760 basement person is somebody who brings you down? And it 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.440 was basically saying, instead of dating with the checklist, he 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.639 must be this tall, he must make this much money. 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.679 Think about the person in your life who's your penthouse person. 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.200 Maybe it's your best friend, maybe it's your cousin, and 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.800 date for somebody with those qualities. And a woman wrote 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.280 back to me and said, what if I'm a basement person? 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:39.160 What do I do about that? And I thought it 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:44.319 was so interesting because oftentimes we think about how can 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:48.160 I choose the right person? And rarely we think am 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:50.360 I the right person? And I think that actually is 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:52.280 a lot of it. Maybe there's nobody out there for 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.240 you because you are not allowing yourself to be loved, 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:57.840 or you are not allowing yourself to connect. And so 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.480 for someone like that, I might say, maybe you right 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.800 now need to do some work on yourself. But I 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.760 do feel like people who are open to connection and 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.960 are willing to compromise on the things that don't matter 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:11.920 and double down on the things that do, I feel 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.640 like there there is love for them. Okay, you know, 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.240 there's the threshold. There are many people, especially in today's 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.560 era of dating apps, who view it as like getting 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:26.040 a job. Very scientifically, But there are a lot of 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:30.200 other people who just cannot get over the threshold, even 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.080 though these people might to those who know them be 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.480 very desirable and if they just played, they would certainly 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.720 be inundated with those who want to interact with them. Now, 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.000 you may not see that many of those people because 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:44.520 they don't come to you. But what do you tell 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:48.240 those people to get engaged in the game. Yeah, no, 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.720 I actually do see a lot of those people. I 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.280 call them hesitators. There are people that are just not 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.040 putting themselves out there at all, and they're not in 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.880 the game, and they oftentimes feel like they're just not 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.000 datable yet. They're just not ready for love. And they 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.320 tell me these things like if I lose weight, if 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.880 I get a more impressive job, if I finally unpack 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:11.519 those boxes in my apartment. So they're not even dating 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.920 because they feel like they're not lovable yet, and the 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.840 work that I do with them is helping them understand. Look, 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.320 the only way to get better at dating is by 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.600 actually dating. And it's kind of like stand up comedy. 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.919 If you just sit in your house writing jokes, you're 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:26.960 just writing. It's not until you're in front of an 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:30.919 audience that you're actually doing stand up. And similarly, these 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.200 people read self help books, so they think about how 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.080 they want to date one day. But you can really 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.600 only get better at dating by actually dating. And also 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:40.920 you only see what kind of person you want to 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.440 be with by actually going on dates. And so for 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.520 some of those people, it's just about getting out there 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.440 and dating. In terms of people that are just not 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.560 getting any matches or not seeing any success, I usually 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:55.640 like to talk to them and just look at their 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.400 past and look at their patterns and say, Okay, when 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:00.880 you have met somebody in the past, was it on 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.520 an app or was it at a dog park? When 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.200 you have connected with somebody, was it actually a friend 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.160 that turned into a relationship? And so some people maybe 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.800 are not actually the best fit for online dating, and 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:14.640 I'd rather look back and help them understand what are 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.520 the situations that set them up for success, and then 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.599 how can they do more of that. Now, the nature 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.560 of life is as you get older, there's attrition. And 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.040 I'm going to talk about a couple of specific examples. 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.840 I have a couple of friends who spouses have passed away, 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.560 and they're in their sixties, and you know, some of 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:39.880 them married a few times, but they just didn't envision 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:43.919 this happening, and they're so reluctant to get into the game. 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.799 Is there any advice you have for them? I wouldn't 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.240 say I'm necessarily an expert on dating at that stage 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.599 of life. I have worked a lot with millennials and 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:57.800 gen z. I do get a lot of emails every 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.480 week from people who are like, you know, I'm in 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.880 my six season seventies and I read your book and 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:03.359 I didn't think it would be for me, but I 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.800 learned a lot. But I just want to start by 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.320 saying I'm not necessarily the most experienced with this. But 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:12.400 what I would say is for some people, they actually 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:14.440 aren't looking for someone. I hear from people all the 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.279 time they're like, I'm way happier being alone than being 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.080 in an unhappy relationship. And I think for some people 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.080 that's the right answer. For other people, when they have 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.280 been out of the dating game for years, trying to 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:32.400 date online feels really forced and not necessarily comfortable for them. 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.080 They feel like they're learning a brand new language. It's like, well, 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.920 how I dated in the eighties is not relevant anymore. 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:40.480 But for those people, I would say just think about 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:44.000 the apps or think about online dating as the modern matchmaker. 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.800 That's just where the connection happens. But once you go 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.839 on that first date, it's the same experience. It's what 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:51.600 are you about? What am I about? What are you 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.000 looking for? Let's go have fun, Let's go on a hike, 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.000 Let's really get to know each other. And then the 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.520 last thing might be you know, speaking of attrition at 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.960 a certain age, are there other people in your life 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:05.440 that maybe you had a connection with and they've also 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.920 lost their spouse, and is there an opportunity to turn 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:12.960 some of those friendships or companionships into something more. Now, 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:18.919 in the Tinder era, more than ever, attractiveness is a 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.280 key element. And certainly those of us who live for 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:26.080 a while, there are certain people they're fighting off the 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.800 other sex or maybe same sex, if they are of 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.719 that ilk persuasion. You know today you gotta worry about 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:37.960 every word you use. You're gonna get canceled. But um, 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.159 you know, if they're gay or whatever. But then there 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.240 are people who say, well, I'm not high on the 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:49.680 attractiveness scale. So if I go on Tinder, j s 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:54.680 wipe all these other things, you know, my opportunities are 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.720 going to be limited, So what do you tell those people? Yeah, 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.240 I think about this a lot. There's this kind stup 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:04.200 called relations shopping. So we used to go relationshipping, which 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.440 is looking for a relationship, and now we go relations shopping, 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.400 which is shopping for somebody as if they were a 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.400 product that we're going to purchase. And so let's say 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.160 somebody was like, Bob, I need a new pair of 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.840 wireless headphones. You might think about, okay, well, how much 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.480 do you want to spend, what quality do you want? 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:24.840 What kind of charging? You might think about all the 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:27.400 specs and break the product down and then say, okay, 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.200 these are the single best pair of wireless headphones for 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.680 what I want. Unfortunately, people are also doing that with dating, 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:40.480 where they're breaking people down into their parts and saying height, attractiveness, education, job, 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.480 quality of photos, etcetera. And the issue with relation shopping 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:48.080 is that people are not what we call searchable goods. 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.800 People cannot be broken down into these parts. People are 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.400 what's known as experience goods, which is something like wine 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:56.600 or a movie. I might love this wine and you 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.560 hate it. I might really not enjoy this movie, but 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:02.840 it age you cry, and you thought it was triumphant, 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.400 and so people are really not something that can be 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:07.680 broken down into their parts. There are people that have 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.680 to be experienced to be understood, and so I do 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.760 think it's a shame when people feel like they can't 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.200 represent themselves because they'll just be you know, swipe left 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.400 on because of their attraction. That being said, there are 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.160 a lot of ways to shine on the apps. That's 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:25.520 not just how you look. And so, for example, with Hinge, 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.320 they have audio prompts, so you can record something in 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.360 your voice and you can tell a joke, you can 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.480 do an impression of a movie, you can say something silly. 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:38.480 My friend Joe, for example, he uses the voice prompt 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.520 how to pronounce my name, which is obviously there for 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.640 people who have hard to pronounce names, but he just 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.640 says Joe. And this factor's people out right. If you 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.000 think that's funny, you have the dry sense of humor 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.000 that he has. If you right back, do you really 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:54.040 think I don't know how to say Joe, then he 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.280 just knows that you're not for him. And so there 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:58.559 are these things that are happening right now that are 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.600 limiting that space between who you are on this two 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.480 dimensional app and who you are three D in real life, 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.400 and they're trying to make it easier to understand from 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:11.600 the app what that person is really like, and so 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:17.360 things like being silly, being funny, using correct grammar, expressing 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:21.080 yourself in a specific way, showing that you can be 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.840 silly and serious, and so yes, I do think in 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.480 general it's not just an app problem. People are very visual, 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.960 they're very focused on attraction, but there are these other 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.200 parts of your personality that you can make shine. And 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.320 I especially think that's true as people get older, because 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.600 in general, nobody in the sixties and seventies market is 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.640 as attractive as the person in the twenties market, and 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:48.840 so I would hope that the emphasis on attraction goes 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:51.880 down somewhat because it's just a different pool of people 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.120 that you're looking at. Well. As I say, I'm not 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.439 solely by audience, is not solely people of that age, 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.480 but just BEng In with one specific example, I have 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.240 a friend in his forties, makes seven figures a year, 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:10.480 very attractive, very in shape, never been married, says he 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.960 wants to be in a relationship. If that person came 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.960 to you, what would be the question you would ask him? 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:21.320 How would you you know, approach getting this person into 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:25.360 a reasonable relationship that might lead to marriage. Yes, well, 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:27.000 I think you gave me a good lay up there 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.720 by saying he says he wants to be in a relationship, Um, 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.840 but you seem to doubt it. And so I would 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:36.600 probably dig into that too. And so let's say I 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:38.560 was working with him in a coaching capacity. In the 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.200 first session, i'd really ask him to tell me his 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.960 dating history, probably starting in high school. People really like 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:46.960 to start in that time. A lot of people say 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.400 to me, I was a late bloomer. Nobody really looked 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.240 at me. Um, I didn't have high self confidence. This 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.640 is when I lost my virginity. People really like to 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.120 start pretty early on and telling me who they are. 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.840 And it's very interesting to hear their narrative. Some people 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.199 focused on the number of partners they've had. Some people 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.800 focus on how they were always so job or school 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.600 oriented and that's why it didn't happen for them. But 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:16.160 I would really listen to what he chooses to include 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.319 in that narrative and then dig in and ask certain 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.800 questions about, you know, why did you break up with 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:22.560 this person, or what did you like or not like 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.679 about them, and for him being in his forties and 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.360 it sounds like you think he's an eligible bachelor. I 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.320 would ask him, why do you think you're single? I 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:34.480 would have him text his friends and family and say, 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.000 why do you think I'm single? I would really start 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.240 to get some data points on what's going on with 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.600 this person, and then I would reflect and say do 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.840 I believe this? Sometimes people say, oh, I'm just too picky. 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.040 I'm like, well, maybe you're picky, but about the wrong things. 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.720 Maybe you actually never got over the fact that you 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.640 were a late bloomer and you really enjoy just dating 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.600 around and you're not looking for something. I would try 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.280 to dig in and say, what's your long term old 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.400 Do you want to have a family? Do you want 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.240 to grow old with someone? If you do, you have 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.440 to change your behavior because where you're headed now is 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.240 not leading towards a path of doing that, and so 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.319 you need to be on board with making a behavioral change. 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:19.000 And sometimes people aren't. Sometimes people actually are just happy 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:21.960 or not happy where they are, but they are not 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:24.200 willing to change their behavior. And you can't just do 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:26.280 the same thing over and over again and expect a 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.559 different outcome. How about you know with this same gentleman, 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.520 he gets in relationships which those of us who are 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:40.080 his friends might say are inappropriate. Is that an age thing? 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.720 Let's be these women be in their twenties, but I 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.400 am I'm referring that sort of a different These are 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:53.840 people who are self supporting, okay, and these are people 0:12:54.360 --> 0:13:01.480 who are not is intelligent worldly that you know, one 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.120 wonders whether he can pick them by virtually the fact 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.720 that he can control them, and is fearful that he's 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.520 someone who's more established he might not be able to 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:15.680 control any thoughts about that. Yeah, I've definitely encountered people 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.040 like this, and I sometimes think that they create a 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.679 mentor mentee dynamic where, similar to what you said, they 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:24.400 want to feel like they're in control. They want to 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.120 feel like that person comes to them for guidance. There's 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.199 a sense of a power and balance that they seem 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.200 to benefit from. What I talked to them about that 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:36.199 is that mentor mentee relationships tend not to work out. 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:40.200 The mentor gets bored and the mentee gets resentful. And 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:44.679 as that person gets older and more independent, they start 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.079 to resent the older person for feeling like, um, they 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.360 need to ask them from permission or things, or they 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:51.800 just don't you know, they want to be in an 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.839 equal relationship. The other thing that I would say to 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.320 your friend is who are some of the relationships in 0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.480 your life that you admire. Tell me about some of 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:03.079 your friends that have great marriages, great partnerships. I would 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.320 listen to what that person says, and I imagine that 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:07.880 he would say something like, I really like this couple. 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:11.640 They seem to have fun together, they have a great dynamic, 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.679 um they like traveling in the same way, and they're 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.520 just really pushing each other and they have fun. Or 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:20.680 he telling me about another couple where it just seems 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.080 like there's a lot of passion and they're really romantic 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.240 and they're not sick of each other. And then I 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.880 would talk to him about these what you called inappropriate 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:32.360 relationships and say do they have that dynamic and just 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:37.040 start to help him understand that obviously this is very hypothetical, 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:42.680 but that likely the relationships he's pursuing are about those 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.720 people's physical attraction or about the fact that if he 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.920 has more power, maybe they won't leave him. Maybe he 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.680 feels like he's trying to live out some high school 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.480 fantasy that he never got to have because he wasn't 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.040 cool in high school, and that it's time to grow 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.800 up and look for the life part NERD instead of 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.840 the promptdate. Okay, So I was on the phone with 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:09.600 somebody yesterday and we were talking about potential partners and 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:14.640 this is a big thing amongst guys, the issue of attractiveness. 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.800 And I said, well, in this demo, whatever, what percentage 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:20.640 of the people you want to carve out that don't 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:27.000 meet your qualifications? He go se but professing that he 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.200 would like to have a relationship, What would you tell 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.960 someone like that? Yeah, I've thought about this a lot. 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:38.400 I've thought about what matters more and less than people 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.960 think for long term relationships. And so some of the 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:48.480 things that matter less than people think include attractive attractiveness, money, 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:53.840 having the same personality, and shared hobbies. In general, people 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.800 tend to overestimate the importance of those. The reason why 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.800 it looks matter but matter lesson we think, is because 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.440 of this idea of adaptation. Over time, we just get 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.200 used to whatever's around us. And so I think I 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.920 said some in my book, like even halle Berry's husband 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.040 cheated on her, right, you can have like the most 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.560 attractive partner in the world. But if you see them 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.000 every day, you just get used to them and sort 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:23.040 of that initial joy or initial spark of that person's 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.560 level of attraction just you just get used to it 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.320 over time, and it's less exciting. So I wouldn't put 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.720 all my eggs in the attraction basket because you're just 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:34.040 gonna get used to it. Plus looks fade. Another thing 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.400 is money. It's the same idea. Yeah, it's great to 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.640 have money. It makes life easier. There's a lot of 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:42.520 research that shows up to a certain amount money matters, 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.720 but over that amount, it just tends to fade into 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:48.360 the background. Your house, it matters more how big your 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:50.880 house is compared to your neighbor's house than how big 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.160 your house is. Over time, and so even if you 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.240 have a ton of money, you start comparing yourself to 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.680 people who have even more than you. You just get 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.280 used to that amount. That's why lottery winners tend to 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.720 be as happy as they were a year after winning 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.320 the lottery, because they just get used to having money. 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.359 Similar personality, you don't have to be a personality twin 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.240 with your partner. Maybe you compliment each other, maybe you're 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.480 really outgoing but you're you're also a little spacey and 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.240 you need somebody to ground you. And then shared hobbies. 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:23.680 I think people talk way too much about I love 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.560 music and this person needs to love music and Bob, 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.040 you might be an exception to this because music is 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:31.240 a huge part of your life. But for the average person, 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.360 you can have a hobby that you embrace with your 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.159 friends or that you do on the weekends, and your 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:38.760 partner doesn't need to have the same level of passion 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.000 for it. So I think people get really distracted by 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.199 some of those things and they are just not what 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.360 the research tells us matters for long term relationship success. 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:51.280 Do you think someone you might not be physically attracted 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:55.520 to initially you can grow to be physically attracted to. Yeah, 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.440 I think above a certain threshold. So if you meet 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.360 someone and you are just grossed out by them, or 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.120 what the kids call these days the ick factor, if 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.000 you're feeling the ig factor, you're probably not going to 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.399 overcome that. But there's tons of examples of people who 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.800 met somebody in their apartment building, met somebody at work 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.640 who they didn't really feel an attraction to, but over time, 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:19.560 as they get to know that person as they see 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.960 how beautiful they look when they are talking about their family, 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:26.720 or how fun they are to be around when they're 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.600 doing a crossrood puzzle with them, that attraction grows. And 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:33.160 there's some really cool research on this. UM. I don't 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.359 know how much research you want me to get into today, 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.440 but UM, basically, if you just look at a group 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.480 of people and you say who are the hottest people, 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.280 we're all going to agree. But if we spend six 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:46.000 months with them and I get to know some people 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:47.760 and you get to know some people, at the end 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.760 of the six months, I'm going to think the people 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:51.800 that I got to know are most attractive, and you're 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:53.280 going to think the people that you got to know 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.760 are most attractive. And so attraction definitely grows over time 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.760 through what's known as the mere exposure effect, and also 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.280 just the more that you see different sides of someone, 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.919 the more they can grow on you. Okay, one of 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.280 the fascinating things that I read about you is you say, 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:14.040 or something you said, was people find those in therapy 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.920 very attractive. I'm a big believer in therapy, been going 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:23.520 for decades, etcetera. I've gotten a lot of ship for that, 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.439 and I know a lot of people who won't go 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.040 to therapy. So is it just a small subset of 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:34.200 people or generations different? What's going on there? So this 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.280 is research that we conducted it hand over the last year. Basically, 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:42.399 I was inspired to do this because I was talking 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:44.120 to a lot of people who said, to me, look, 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.480 the pandemic was really hard. It was really tough. It 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:49.919 pushed me to my limits. I went to therapy to 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.280 quote unquote do the work. Now I'm meeting these people 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:55.560 who haven't done any of that and they basically come 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:57.439 to me and I have to be their therapists, And like, 0:19:57.440 --> 0:19:59.560 I'm not willing to do that. I've done the work. 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:01.440 I want to be with someone who's done the work. 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.399 It really felt like there was this cultural shift away 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.840 from therapy being this stigmatized thing that means there's something 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.320 wrong with you, to being this very healthy thing that means, yes, 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.320 I'm prioritizing my mental health. And so what we found 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.960 it hinge was that over of people said I want 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.440 to be with someone who actively takes care of their 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:24.280 mental health. And then they also said if somebody mentioned 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.639 on the first date that they go to therapy, I 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:28.919 would be more likely to want to go on a 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:31.720 second date with them, and so I do think this 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.240 is a cultural shift. Uh, Millennials and gen z tend 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:37.919 to be way more focused on self help. They follow 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.440 a bunch of therapists and coaches on Instagram, they consume 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.600 a lot of self help podcast that's just part of 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.000 the zeitgeist. But I also think that the pandemic really 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.200 pushed this because people were so challenged that they were 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:52.439 forced to deal with some of their stuff, and in 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.040 doing that, they were like, Wow, this is really valuable. 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.480 I wish I had done this before. I wish my 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.760 parents did it, and I absolutely want my partner to 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:04.400 do it. What's your therapy experience? Yeah, I mean, I'm 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.080 I'm Jewish, I'm from South Florida. I feel like therapy 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:10.000 is just something I'm very comfortable with. I've seen a 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:13.200 series of therapists in my life. I feel like some 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:17.880 people have had really magical therapy experiences. I wouldn't say 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.080 I've had one particular therapist that was life changing, but 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.280 I think it's just really healthy at different stages to 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.439 have somebody to confess things to and to talk to. 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.720 And it's basically a space where you put a lot 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:35.400 of stuff that's messy that you don't want to bring 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.359 anywhere else. I also feel like one of the reasons 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.359 why my husband and I are married is because his 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.440 mom is a therapist. And he has this joke he 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.199 likes to say, which is, I didn't talk to my 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:49.760 mom that much growing up. She didn't take my insurance. 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:54.360 That is funny. He's really funny, But I feel like 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.199 his mom is one of the major reasons we're married. 0:21:57.600 --> 0:21:59.320 A lot of people these days like to say that 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:01.679 they're feminine us, but I think my husband actually is 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:05.040 a feminist, Like he reads books by women about the 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.720 women experience. He liked The Show Girls. It's not like 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.439 a showy thing for him. It's not about protesting or marching. 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:15.080 It's that he actually is very interested in what women 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.639 think and feels like men and women are equal. And 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:24.760 I think that just came from having a very sassy, opinionated, strong, 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:29.320 emotionally intelligent mom. And I feel really lucky to be 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:33.040 married to the son of a therapist, and as he 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.560 had individual therapy himself. Yeah, I mean, I think we're 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:40.160 both just of the Yeah. For us, therapy is like, yeah, 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:42.119 you have something going on, like you probably need to 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:44.040 go to a therapist. That there's I would say, it's 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.680 not stigmatized at all. And yeah, I would say I'm 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:54.159 lucky to be in a community where most people I 0:22:54.200 --> 0:23:05.280 know have probably been to therapy at some point. Okay, 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:07.879 I had a free subscription to a o L and 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.719 I'm dating myself when people had to pay by the minute. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:16.280 So literally I lived on that service and it benefited 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:20.679 me professionally. But I would like to explore all those things. 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:23.480 I mean, there was love at a o well, never 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:29.440 mind the chat groups, chat rooms, and then match dot com. 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:31.560 I mean, I've been in a one on one relationship 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.600 for decades, but I still have a free subscription if 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:37.239 I could find the log in, because those of us 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:42.480 were grandfathered in. But when two interesting things. One I 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:46.080 found that I could say the same thing to two 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:50.679 different women get wildly divergent reactions when you're moving too fast, 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:53.520 the other one would say, this is just too slow, 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:56.880 I have to abandon you. The other thing I found 0:23:57.600 --> 0:24:02.520 was that it really got my chops up for interacting 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:06.280 people with in regular life. So to what degree do 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:09.320 you believe just being in the game is working on 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:12.439 your own games? Such you're open to love or really 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:16.359 if you want to get in a serious relationship, the 0:24:16.440 --> 0:24:20.199 apps themselves can do this for you. Oh this is 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:22.560 this is funny to think about. It takes me back. 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:25.680 So I also had the free A O L subscription, 0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:29.399 and then I spent much of my middle school in 0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:32.880 high school years on a I am right, I am right, 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:35.919 of course, the predecessor of my message, of course. And 0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:38.120 sometimes I like to think about, you know, the Malcolm 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:42.520 Gladwell ten hours thing. I'm like, my ten hours is 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:46.119 chatting day. Well, believe me, I feel the same way. 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:48.320 People say, you know, you know, I'll just go a 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:50.720 little left field here. People say, oh, chat rooms I 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:53.119 don't understand, say you don't understand how to play the game. 0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:57.879 There's a there's a chat room for every sexual predilection. 0:24:57.920 --> 0:24:59.359 I said, I don't want to know what your sexual 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:03.320 predilection is. But in the user created rooms, it's there, 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:06.840 and there's it was thirteen or fourteen people in every 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:10.119 chat room, and then you click and get their profile 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:13.919 and then you connect, you contact them via aim. You know, 0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:18.239 to this day, what's interesting because older generations are much 0:25:18.320 --> 0:25:21.520 less tech savvy than they say, and same thing with 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:23.919 younger generations. The old cliche used to be, well, if 0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:26.360 you got a tech problem mass somebody who's twelve. That's 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:30.159 not necessarily the case anymore. But there's a lot of 0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:33.960 experience to be gained there. So you gain that experience. 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:37.200 And now that I've gone off on my own, little Hahira, there, 0:25:37.640 --> 0:25:40.640 give me continue the story you were telling. Oh sure, yeah, 0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:42.840 I didn't spend a ton of time and chat rooms, 0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:44.920 but I definitely it was a kind of thing where 0:25:45.080 --> 0:25:47.359 maybe you sat next to a cute boy in class 0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:49.400 and you never spoke, but when you would go home 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:51.919 at night, you would talk on a I AM for 0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:54.680 three hours, and I feel like you, I really did 0:25:54.720 --> 0:25:58.680 get my flirty writing style down. I usually think about 0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:00.960 it as a waste where I'm like, I could have 0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:03.760 learned Spanish, I could have learned how to code, Like 0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:05.840 why did I spend so much of my time there? 0:26:05.880 --> 0:26:09.040 But then I'm also like, I'm a pretty good written communicator, 0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:12.640 and I think some of it was honed using that service, 0:26:12.720 --> 0:26:14.760 And so I agree with you. And so in terms 0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:18.000 of being in the game, I absolutely agree with that idea. 0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:20.360 It's kind of what I was talking about before with hesitators, 0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:22.959 where some people are just not dating at all, and 0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:25.280 maybe they are afraid of dating. They feel like they're 0:26:25.320 --> 0:26:28.439 out of practice, they're afraid to get out there. But 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:32.680 so much research on how to achieve your goals has 0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:35.600 to do with identity. Right. There's this great book Atomic 0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:38.680 Habits where he talks about how his friend lost a 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:41.840 hundred pounds by saying every time she had to make 0:26:41.840 --> 0:26:44.239 a decision, she would say what would a healthy person do? 0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:47.479 And she basically adopted the identity of a healthy person 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:50.320 and then was able to make decisions like taking the 0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:53.359 stairs instead of the elevator, ordering a salad instead of 0:26:53.400 --> 0:26:56.359 the fries, whatever it was. And so the dating analogy 0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:58.960 here is how can you adopt the identity of a 0:26:59.040 --> 0:27:01.600 data and say I am a data? I am somebody 0:27:01.600 --> 0:27:04.800 who goes on dates. That means that I save this 0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:07.080 many nights a week for dating. It means that I 0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:09.720 respond to messages on the app. I really feel like 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:13.359 you have to think of yourself as somebody who's in 0:27:13.400 --> 0:27:15.560 the game. And if you just think of yourself as 0:27:15.560 --> 0:27:18.040 somebody who will eventually be in the game, who who's 0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:20.399 occasionally in the game, I don't find that those people 0:27:20.480 --> 0:27:23.560 really make progress. You know. One of the things my 0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:26.680 psychiatrist said early in the game, this is the nineties. 0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:31.280 With this particular psychiatrist would say, yeah, certain things attract. 0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:35.800 Physical attractedness is one thing, would attract love partner. But 0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:39.919 also if you're a man, uh status, whether it be 0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:45.920 fame or a certain job, money, you know, so many 0:27:45.960 --> 0:27:47.960 people might say forget the people who are not playing 0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:51.400 at all. Well, I'm playing at this level, but I 0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:54.520 hope to play at a higher level when I got 0:27:54.600 --> 0:27:57.280 further in my career. What might you say to someone 0:27:57.320 --> 0:28:00.919 like that. Yeah, I do a lot of work with 0:28:00.960 --> 0:28:03.600 people where we say, okay, where are you now, where 0:28:03.600 --> 0:28:05.080 do you want to get to? And what are the 0:28:05.119 --> 0:28:07.800 steps along the way, and then I might walk them 0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:10.680 through a checklist of you know, the bare minimum. So 0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:12.959 at the bare minimum, you need a great profile with 0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:17.040 attractive pictures and showing you in a flattering but accurate light, 0:28:17.160 --> 0:28:19.359 something that tells a story. All right. You need to 0:28:19.400 --> 0:28:22.480 be logging in pretty consistently, because if you just log 0:28:22.560 --> 0:28:24.880 into the app every Sunday and then you let those 0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:27.439 conversations die, you don't go on dates. You need to 0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:31.280 be going on first dates that actually have good conversation 0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:33.399 and leads to connection and maybe a kiss at the 0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:35.720 end of the night. If your first dates aren't turning 0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:38.840 into second dates, let's zoom in there, what's the problem? 0:28:38.840 --> 0:28:40.760 How do we get you to second dates? And just 0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:44.120 really working with people and seeing are you doing the 0:28:44.320 --> 0:28:47.200 must have steps? And then where are you getting stuck? 0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:50.240 And how can we fix that? And so I could 0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:53.120 imagine maybe somebody listening to our conversation and being like, oh, 0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:57.520 that sounds, you know, so technical, that sounds like you're 0:28:57.560 --> 0:29:00.800 trying to apply maybe business techniques or thing to dating. 0:29:00.840 --> 0:29:02.600 But at the end of the day, a lot of 0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:06.160 people are single, they don't want to be they want help, 0:29:06.640 --> 0:29:09.400 and we have blind spots that make it hard for 0:29:09.480 --> 0:29:11.560 us to see what we're doing wrong. And so I 0:29:11.640 --> 0:29:14.720 really like to be that third party that sits there 0:29:14.720 --> 0:29:16.400 with them and says, well, if you're going on a 0:29:16.440 --> 0:29:18.920 ton of first dates and no second dates, you're doing 0:29:18.960 --> 0:29:21.120 something wrong in the first date, and let's figure out 0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:25.600 what's going wrong. Now. I know from personal experience more 0:29:25.640 --> 0:29:29.640 than once you're in a long term relationship, you hit 0:29:29.680 --> 0:29:33.200 a point where the other person wants to get married. Okay, 0:29:33.280 --> 0:29:35.480 So let's say someone comes to you said we'll have 0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:39.080 a long term relationship. But really, I'm just in my twenties. 0:29:39.640 --> 0:29:42.000 I don't really want to get married till they're till 0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:44.840 I'm in my thirties, and then gets you know, starts 0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:47.480 to get traction with someone. You know, what do you 0:29:47.520 --> 0:29:52.280 tell someone like that. I've found that people change their 0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:55.600 minds more often than they think. So I know so 0:29:55.640 --> 0:29:57.720 many people who in their twenties said I don't want 0:29:57.720 --> 0:30:00.160 to have kids, and then in their thirties all their 0:30:00.160 --> 0:30:01.960 friends had kids, and they're like, I guess this is 0:30:02.000 --> 0:30:04.520 the thing to do. And so part of that is 0:30:04.560 --> 0:30:07.880 just an acknowledgment that people change over time way more 0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:10.880 than we think we will. There's this really cool research 0:30:10.920 --> 0:30:13.040 from Dan Gilbert out of Harvard called the end of 0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:16.000 history illusion, where people think, oh, i'm twenty, I'm not 0:30:16.040 --> 0:30:18.360 going to change. Oh i'm thirty, I'm not going to change. 0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:20.480 I'm forty, I'm not going to change. We keep thinking 0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:22.880 that we're done changing, but when you look back on 0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:25.479 the previous ten years, you've changed a lot. And so 0:30:25.560 --> 0:30:28.280 part of it is just helping people acknowledge and understand 0:30:28.320 --> 0:30:32.680 that your desires may change. Another thing is that sometimes 0:30:32.720 --> 0:30:35.240 your timeline doesn't match up with somebody else's if you're 0:30:35.280 --> 0:30:37.920 dating someone who's older, who's ready to get married now, 0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:41.800 and that's not your exact preferred time, could you compromise, 0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:44.560 Could you be ready a little bit earlier? And then 0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:47.240 something else might be is it that you don't want 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:49.400 to get married or is it that you don't want 0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:52.120 to be with this person? And maybe they're actually conflating 0:30:52.120 --> 0:30:54.480 those ideas, and so I would dig in with them 0:30:54.520 --> 0:30:58.320 and say, is this actually is it of timing or 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:02.000 is this not the right person? You know, the entertainment 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:05.880 business is littered with people who walked in in marriages 0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:09.360 or had early marriages, had a lot of success, fire 0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:15.000 the spouse and got somebody else. So you know, what 0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:18.400 do you tell those people that really, you're not going 0:31:18.440 --> 0:31:20.760 to find what you're looking for when you have something 0:31:20.920 --> 0:31:23.720 established or now you have a better cv, you're really 0:31:23.720 --> 0:31:27.000 going to find someone better. Yeah, it's funny. I don't 0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:29.480 have a lot of personal experience with the entertainment industry, 0:31:29.480 --> 0:31:31.800 but it reminds me of lots of friends who have 0:31:31.840 --> 0:31:34.560 gone to business school, where you walk into business school 0:31:34.680 --> 0:31:37.360 with the partner and then you meet someone who you 0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:39.280 think is more on your level or you have more 0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:42.480 in common with and suddenly there's a lot of divorces 0:31:42.520 --> 0:31:44.800 happening that first year of business school, and so there 0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:49.000 is a tendency in our culture. I think too. Maybe 0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:52.120 it's like have a starter spouse or to trade up. 0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:55.520 And the question I would ask this person is on 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:58.200 what dimensions are you trading up? Is it that you 0:31:58.240 --> 0:32:01.400 think that you could have someone more attractive and so 0:32:01.520 --> 0:32:04.760 you're you're leaving your first partner behind. I would really 0:32:04.880 --> 0:32:07.880 question for those people where the decision is coming from. 0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:10.720 And some of the celebrities and people I admire the 0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:14.440 most are people who have their O G relationship and 0:32:14.480 --> 0:32:18.200 their O G friends and basically have realized that that 0:32:18.240 --> 0:32:23.320 person loved them even before they were Mark Zuckerberg world 0:32:23.440 --> 0:32:26.040 billionaire and things like that. Right he's he's been dating 0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:28.640 his partner for a long time, and so there of 0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:31.080 course there's going to be divorces. And that's not the problem. 0:32:31.120 --> 0:32:33.800 I think the issue is when people feel like they 0:32:33.880 --> 0:32:36.680 need an upgrade to represent where they are right now, 0:32:36.760 --> 0:32:39.800 and they might not realize realize the sacrifices they're making 0:32:40.080 --> 0:32:42.840 because that person is drawn to who you are now 0:32:42.960 --> 0:32:46.880 and maybe not who you were when you were a 0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:51.640 more humble version of yourself. Okay uh. There was a 0:32:51.680 --> 0:32:55.800 song in the eighties by Paula abdual Opposites Attract, and 0:32:55.880 --> 0:32:57.960 I always use that as my mantra when it comes 0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:03.360 to relationships. People are looking for someone who's identical to them, 0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:06.479 and as the couple therapists we see says, you know, 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:10.520 you would absolutely hate that. So what's been your experience? 0:33:11.080 --> 0:33:14.200 I completely agree. I I just I think you said 0:33:14.200 --> 0:33:17.080 it very well. It's like people think that they are 0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:19.560 so great that they need to find someone just like them. 0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:21.720 And I can remember a client of mine who came 0:33:21.760 --> 0:33:24.360 in and said, I'm the life of the party. I'm 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:27.240 so much fun. I I literally do event planning for 0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:29.280 a living. And I just don't know if I can 0:33:29.320 --> 0:33:32.600 be with my girlfriend. She's such a homebody, and she's quiet, 0:33:32.640 --> 0:33:34.840 and she wants to go home at eleven PM and 0:33:34.840 --> 0:33:37.680 not sail till three am. And then I say, this person, 0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:40.680 two of you in a relationship would be way too much. 0:33:40.720 --> 0:33:44.440 You would be competing to be the center of attention. 0:33:45.000 --> 0:33:47.920 Neither of you would be the grounding force that reminds 0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:50.320 you to spend time together. I don't think that relationship 0:33:50.360 --> 0:33:54.640 would work, and so I often recommend to people that 0:33:54.680 --> 0:33:57.760 they find their compliment, and I can say, in terms 0:33:57.800 --> 0:33:59.960 of my own experience, my husband and I are really 0:34:00.000 --> 0:34:06.440 a different He's introverted, he's a scientist, he's doesn't care 0:34:06.480 --> 0:34:10.480 what people think about him. He's vegan, he works out 0:34:10.480 --> 0:34:14.520 every day. There's just sort of a private, self assured 0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:17.000 nous to him, and I think I'm the opposite of that. 0:34:17.520 --> 0:34:21.960 And sometimes he really frustrates me. And for example, we've 0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:23.880 been married for two years, but we just had our 0:34:23.880 --> 0:34:27.600 wedding celebration two weeks ago, and the first line of 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:31.200 my vows is when I look at your face, I 0:34:31.320 --> 0:34:34.600 see the person who drives me crazy and the person 0:34:35.000 --> 0:34:39.319 who keeps me sane. And that's exactly how I feel 0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:42.239 about him. He annoys me so much. She's so frustrating. 0:34:42.480 --> 0:34:44.319 Why won't he do anything I ask him to do? 0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:46.040 And then I'm like, oh, yeah, this is why we've 0:34:46.040 --> 0:34:48.840 been together for seven years because I love that he 0:34:48.920 --> 0:34:50.799 doesn't do what I asked him to do, because it 0:34:50.880 --> 0:34:53.359 keeps things interesting and he always surprises me. And I 0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:58.160 can't just mold the world around I can't mold him 0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:00.320 to my liking like I can do with other people. 0:35:00.360 --> 0:35:03.720 And so I feel like it's that tension that keeps 0:35:03.760 --> 0:35:10.440 you together. Okay, let's go through the varying dating apps, 0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:13.480 because it's certainly changed from the era of just Match. 0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:17.960 Then we have a Harmony, we have Bumble where you 0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:25.160 work for Hinge Tender, explain the landscape. Yeah, So one 0:35:25.200 --> 0:35:28.680 of the big changes that happened was prior to ten 0:35:28.760 --> 0:35:33.640 years ago, most of these dating most most of the 0:35:33.719 --> 0:35:36.160 online dating was on a desktop, right. So I remember 0:35:36.360 --> 0:35:39.399 using okay Cupid in two thousand eleven and you could 0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:41.600 search for different people and you could have these long 0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:45.560 conversations and it was a very desktop focused experienced. And 0:35:45.560 --> 0:35:49.680 then the big game changer was Grinder, where Grinder was 0:35:49.760 --> 0:35:52.719 location based and you would see, oh, turns out my 0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:55.640 neighbor is gay, and you know, down for some fun, 0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:58.839 and it was really based on your phone and who 0:35:59.000 --> 0:36:02.200 was around you. And then the next big technological change 0:36:02.280 --> 0:36:05.120 was Tinder, which was ten years ago now inventing the 0:36:05.200 --> 0:36:07.840 swipe and the fact that you could just right swipe 0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:10.520 like someone or left swipe reject someone. And so those 0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:13.799 were the big changes in terms of the scene. Now 0:36:14.760 --> 0:36:18.080 almost everything is very app focused. There's apps that are 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:21.240 more focused for older folks. So things like our time 0:36:21.840 --> 0:36:25.040 in general, e Harmony and match are tend to be 0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:28.120 a little bit older, and then you have Bumble, you 0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:32.520 have Hinge and Tinder in general exkews a little bit 0:36:32.560 --> 0:36:36.360 younger or a little bit less focused on relationships. What 0:36:36.480 --> 0:36:39.440 about I believe it's Rya. You know they have these 0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:43.160 uh dating apps there have some level of exclusivity. What 0:36:43.239 --> 0:36:46.480 has your experience been with that? I really only know 0:36:46.680 --> 0:36:49.640 two couples that have come out of Riya. In general, 0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:52.920 it's the kind of thing where people want you didn't 0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:55.719 know that they're on Riya, but they're not necessarily using it. 0:36:55.760 --> 0:36:58.640 Often are looking for a relationship, and so Rya is 0:36:58.680 --> 0:37:01.920 one that I'm curious about because it definitely has that 0:37:02.120 --> 0:37:05.200 prestige factor. But I haven't necessarily heard about a ton 0:37:05.280 --> 0:37:08.719 of relationships coming out of it. Okay, I come to 0:37:08.800 --> 0:37:14.319 see you. I'm you know, somewhere between twenty four and 0:37:14.520 --> 0:37:17.759 thirty eight, and I want to have a relationship. How 0:37:17.760 --> 0:37:22.359 do you choose which app you direct your client too? Yeah, 0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:24.960 it's interesting. Some people are just on way too many 0:37:25.040 --> 0:37:27.239 and then they get burned out or they feel like 0:37:27.280 --> 0:37:28.920 they have to check too many of them, and so 0:37:28.960 --> 0:37:31.440 I would just say, hey, let's pick maybe one or 0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:34.520 two that you're on. Obviously I'm biased towards Hinge. I 0:37:34.560 --> 0:37:36.920 really like it. I feel like I liked it before 0:37:36.960 --> 0:37:41.160 I worked there. That's why I chose to work there. Um, 0:37:41.200 --> 0:37:44.520 this is going to sound very salthy for Hinge, But 0:37:44.560 --> 0:37:47.080 before I worked there, I was interviewing people from my 0:37:47.120 --> 0:37:50.200 book and I had the chance to eat interview the CEO, 0:37:50.520 --> 0:37:54.520 and I said to him, your tagline is designed to 0:37:54.520 --> 0:37:57.200 be deleted, and I just don't believe it. I've worked 0:37:57.200 --> 0:37:59.320 at tech companies. The biggest thing is you want to 0:37:59.360 --> 0:38:02.279 avoid chre earn. You want to avoid having users join 0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:05.080 and then leave. How could you be designed to be deleted? 0:38:05.080 --> 0:38:07.760 That doesn't make any sense. And he said, ever since 0:38:07.800 --> 0:38:12.000 we shifted towards that, we've had way more success because 0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:14.480 if your brother meets somebody on Hinge, he's going to 0:38:14.600 --> 0:38:16.520 tell everyone about it. If you read in the New 0:38:16.600 --> 0:38:19.440 York Times in the vows section that somebody met on Hinge, 0:38:19.640 --> 0:38:21.680 you're going to sign up for it. And so focusing 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:24.799 on actually getting people into relationships and not making the 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:27.840 app fun or a place to just you know, play 0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:31.040 a game, and you know it's not gamified. It's not 0:38:31.080 --> 0:38:33.600 about making the app fun. It's about meeting somebody and 0:38:33.600 --> 0:38:36.520 then getting onto the data as soon as possible. Okay, 0:38:36.600 --> 0:38:38.960 let's go to very specific. Some of these are more 0:38:39.040 --> 0:38:43.680 pass like Okay, Cupid and plenty of Fish. To me, 0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:47.200 those that didn't charge, let me put it in a 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:50.319 different way. Those that did charge got rid of a 0:38:50.360 --> 0:38:54.600 lot of the detritus, people who were not serious or 0:38:54.719 --> 0:38:58.520 not worthy partners. Is that reasonable or is that just 0:38:58.600 --> 0:39:02.880 a bias. I would say it depends on your age 0:39:02.880 --> 0:39:05.959 and your intention. Maybe you're just online to have fun 0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:08.719 and you just graduated from college, and you meet people 0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:10.439 at work, you meet people at bars, and you also 0:39:10.480 --> 0:39:13.040 meet people online. I think what you're looking for is 0:39:13.080 --> 0:39:16.600 totally different than somebody who's divorced with the kid, doesn't 0:39:16.600 --> 0:39:18.960 have a ton of time and really only wants to 0:39:18.960 --> 0:39:22.920 meet people who also want to get remarried and have 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:26.040 a family. And so I think it's almost like saying 0:39:27.520 --> 0:39:31.400 is expensive food overrated? Well, you know, it depends what 0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:34.239 can you afford and what are you looking for and 0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:38.120 what are your expectations for food? And so I think 0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:42.359 it's like the dating journey really really depends on your 0:39:42.400 --> 0:39:46.520 age and how serious you are and what you're looking for. Okay, 0:39:46.600 --> 0:39:51.000 let's go to another extreme and your experience. Is Craigslist 0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:56.880 still a thing. I don't hear about craigslist hookups anymore. 0:39:56.960 --> 0:39:59.560 I know there were casual encounters and things like that, 0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:03.680 but I haven't heard about that in a long time. Okay, 0:40:03.719 --> 0:40:06.680 so has someone you know it's a long time ago. 0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:09.319 Someone who's certainly been on dates as a result of 0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:16.800 online you know those places. I always tell people two things, 0:40:18.880 --> 0:40:23.000 Get face to face as soon as possible, and then 0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:26.560 make it so that it can be brief, because frequently 0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:29.920 you know very quickly. What do you tell your clients? 0:40:31.160 --> 0:40:34.160 I totally agree with the first point. I have found 0:40:34.200 --> 0:40:38.200 that people spend way too long talking online before they 0:40:38.239 --> 0:40:42.000 meet up in person. And I call it the Monet effect, 0:40:42.080 --> 0:40:45.680 which is that our brains have a tendency to fill 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:49.400 in the gaps of information we don't know with positive information. 0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:52.440 And so let's say somebody puts on their app I 0:40:52.560 --> 0:40:55.120 love music. Your brain is going to go, oh, she 0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:57.680 loves music. I bet she loves the same music as me, 0:40:57.840 --> 0:41:01.120 And we basically create a fantasy in our minds of 0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:03.959 what this person is like. So the longer we talk 0:41:04.120 --> 0:41:07.200 the longer the fantasy builds. So let's say three or 0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:10.879 four weeks into talking, we finally meet up. Suddenly that 0:41:10.960 --> 0:41:14.760 person doesn't match your fantasy, even if they're independently great, 0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:17.040 they are different than what you've built up in their mind, 0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:20.919 and that feels disappointing. It's much healthier, it's much more 0:41:20.920 --> 0:41:24.960 effective to meet. Make sure you have some stuff to 0:41:24.960 --> 0:41:28.640 talk about, make sure you're enjoying the conversation. They're asking 0:41:28.640 --> 0:41:31.120 you questions, you're asking them questions. Get to the date, 0:41:31.200 --> 0:41:34.319 and then see do we have chemistry in person? Do 0:41:34.440 --> 0:41:37.319 we enjoy the sound of each other's voices, are we 0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:40.920 curious to spend more time together? And so I really 0:41:40.960 --> 0:41:44.040 think the much better strategy is meeting on the app, 0:41:45.000 --> 0:41:47.640 talking on the phone or video chat as soon as possible, 0:41:48.239 --> 0:41:50.960 meeting up in person quickly, and then making decisions based 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:54.880 on that, not based on text communication. Now the second half, 0:41:55.320 --> 0:41:57.920 which would be meet somewhere where it can be brief 0:41:58.280 --> 0:42:02.160 me for coffee as opposed to dinner or your take there. Yeah, 0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:05.880 so I've I've changed my view on this over time, 0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:07.840 But it might just be that I live in Silicon 0:42:07.960 --> 0:42:12.160 Valley and people here are obsessed with productivity and effectiveness 0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:14.840 and to do list. And I've worked with clients that 0:42:14.960 --> 0:42:18.000 treat dating like something on there to do list between 0:42:18.120 --> 0:42:20.280 going to the gym and picking up their dry cleaning, 0:42:20.320 --> 0:42:22.919 and so they'll save twenty minutes for a coffee date 0:42:23.280 --> 0:42:26.239 in between two meetings. And then they do this over 0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:28.279 a year, and they wonder why it never works out, 0:42:28.640 --> 0:42:30.799 and they think that this is must must just be 0:42:30.880 --> 0:42:33.840 the people that they're meeting. But in that situation, I 0:42:33.880 --> 0:42:36.320 would say, there's something about the way that you're dating 0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:39.800 that's not leading to connection. You're in between two meetings, 0:42:39.800 --> 0:42:43.320 You're probably in work mode, You're probably not being very flirtatious, 0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:45.680 you might be stressed out, you might not be open, 0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:49.080 you might be not vulnerable, because why would you become 0:42:49.160 --> 0:42:52.319 vulnerable for twenty minutes in between two business meetings. And 0:42:52.360 --> 0:42:54.640 so for some people, I feel like what they need 0:42:54.680 --> 0:42:57.640 to do is actually go on fewer dates, but give 0:42:57.680 --> 0:43:00.200 each date more time and say, I'm going to meet 0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:04.439 this person for drinks after work, and if it goes well, 0:43:04.600 --> 0:43:06.719 I don't have anything later, so we can extend it 0:43:06.760 --> 0:43:09.520 to dinner, we can extend it to going to another bar. 0:43:10.200 --> 0:43:13.760 Um For some people, they just really are so burned 0:43:13.760 --> 0:43:16.160 out that they're trying to make the date short, and 0:43:16.200 --> 0:43:18.560 I think sometimes it does take a moment for you 0:43:18.640 --> 0:43:21.400 to get to know someone. That being said, I also 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:24.360 work with clients and these tend to be female clients 0:43:24.640 --> 0:43:27.439 who say, oh, I went on this five hour date 0:43:27.480 --> 0:43:29.440 with this guy, but I'm not interested in him. And 0:43:29.480 --> 0:43:31.360 I'm like, why did you give him five hours? And 0:43:31.400 --> 0:43:33.560 she's like, well, he seemed to be having fun and 0:43:33.600 --> 0:43:36.000 I didn't want to be rude, And in that situation, 0:43:36.000 --> 0:43:38.120 I'm like, you don't owe someone five hours. You don't 0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:40.560 owe someone five drinks. You should give them a chance. 0:43:40.640 --> 0:43:43.919 Maybe that's ninety minutes, but at that point, if you're 0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:46.439 not feeling it, you also need to respect your own time, 0:43:46.520 --> 0:43:51.239 because going on five hour dates with people that you're 0:43:51.239 --> 0:43:52.920 not interested in, it's just going to lead to you 0:43:52.960 --> 0:44:02.680 feeling burned out. Okay, going to the other extreme, which 0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:05.280 is the harmony, you don't really hear that much about 0:44:05.280 --> 0:44:08.239 it anymore, but I know a number of people who 0:44:08.239 --> 0:44:10.880 were married as a result of the harmony, which is 0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:15.240 the opposite paradigm, which is you communicate a lot before 0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:19.000 you do meet. Is what are your thoughts on that 0:44:20.239 --> 0:44:23.360 in general? I would say that the pandemic change the 0:44:23.400 --> 0:44:26.840 way that people dated, and the pandemic force people to 0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:30.120 get more creative about what a date is. And so 0:44:30.239 --> 0:44:33.799 I heard way more people going on video dates, going 0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:39.640 on phone calls. People were basically doing this step in 0:44:39.680 --> 0:44:43.400 between chatting online and meeting up in person, And so 0:44:43.560 --> 0:44:45.799 I'm hearing more and more and more about that, And 0:44:45.880 --> 0:44:49.200 so in general, I think people are getting offline sooner, 0:44:49.560 --> 0:44:52.160 and even if it's just a phone call, They're seeing 0:44:52.239 --> 0:44:54.040 do we have something to talk about? Do I like 0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:57.120 the sound of your voice? Is there some chemistry? And 0:44:57.160 --> 0:45:00.960 so I'm just in general, across different generally sations seeing 0:45:00.960 --> 0:45:05.000 a shift of talking less online and getting to the 0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:08.239 in person date or the phone call date sooner. How 0:45:08.320 --> 0:45:11.319 much is it getting your chops up? Like you talk 0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:13.919 about the issue, I'm not in the dating game right now, 0:45:14.400 --> 0:45:18.000 but I respecting your own time. How do you teach 0:45:18.080 --> 0:45:20.040 people to cut it short, as you say, we're not 0:45:20.080 --> 0:45:24.160 talking twenty minutes, but to not give five hours and 0:45:24.880 --> 0:45:29.920 respect their own time and ultimately feel good about ending it. Yeah, 0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:31.759 it's interesting. I would say the more that I do 0:45:31.880 --> 0:45:34.359 this work, the more I see that different people need 0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:37.440 different advice. So some people are way too picky and 0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:39.440 nobody is good enough for them. And some people are 0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:41.960 not picky enough and they need to respect themselves more. 0:45:42.440 --> 0:45:45.000 And so my advice for each of those people would 0:45:45.040 --> 0:45:47.759 not only vary, but perhaps be the opposite. And so 0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:50.359 for the two picky people, I would say, what are 0:45:50.400 --> 0:45:52.920 the good qualities in this person? What is something that 0:45:52.960 --> 0:45:56.080 you admire about them? Could you imagine yourself having fun 0:45:56.120 --> 0:45:58.960 with them? For the person who's not picky enough, I 0:45:59.000 --> 0:46:02.680 would say, realistically, is this person you're equal? Is this 0:46:02.760 --> 0:46:05.279 a person that you feel could create the lifestyle that 0:46:05.360 --> 0:46:09.680 you want? Is this person on your level? And so 0:46:09.680 --> 0:46:11.640 I would give them opposite advice, And so for the 0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:14.200 time thing, the same thing holds true. For some people. 0:46:14.239 --> 0:46:17.080 I would say, give people enough of a chance, don't 0:46:17.160 --> 0:46:19.239 just judge them for the first few minutes. And for 0:46:19.320 --> 0:46:21.760 the other people, I would say, look, you don't owe 0:46:21.840 --> 0:46:24.960 anyone anything. What you owe them is to show up 0:46:25.000 --> 0:46:28.920 when you say you will, to be open minded and 0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:31.759 give them a chance. But you certainly don't owe them 0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:34.440 a certain number of drinks, and you certainly don't owe them, 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:36.759 you know, over an hour. We'll let me be a 0:46:36.800 --> 0:46:39.480 little bit more specific I know, so these people who 0:46:39.520 --> 0:46:42.920 run a hedge fund and they started cold calling people. 0:46:43.160 --> 0:46:47.799 That was their first gig okay, and they experienced an 0:46:47.920 --> 0:46:53.360 unbelievable amount of rejection. The average person, from my experience, 0:46:53.520 --> 0:46:58.320 is so fearful of rejection or the other person feeling 0:46:58.400 --> 0:47:03.239 bad about them that it inhibits them both to be 0:47:03.400 --> 0:47:06.920 in the game. And then say this isn't working for me, 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:11.799 I'm going to pull back. Yes, that's definitely what I 0:47:11.840 --> 0:47:15.240 am hearing. I had this idea for an art project 0:47:15.239 --> 0:47:17.680 a few years ago called the Rejection Room, where you 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:19.959 would walk into a tunnel and on the side would 0:47:20.000 --> 0:47:24.160 be all of these um screenshots of people rejecting each 0:47:24.200 --> 0:47:27.040 other online or maybe a voice of somebody reading it 0:47:27.080 --> 0:47:30.000 out loud. And I started to talk to my friends 0:47:30.040 --> 0:47:32.319 and say, oh, can you send me screenshots of your 0:47:32.320 --> 0:47:35.160 rejection And what I would hear most often is oh, 0:47:35.200 --> 0:47:38.880 nobody really outright rejects you. They just ghost you. And 0:47:38.960 --> 0:47:43.600 so the modern epidemic and dating is ghosting, where you 0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:46.680 basically could be dating someone for literally months and then 0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:49.239 they just stopped responding to And it's when I hear 0:47:49.280 --> 0:47:51.719 these stories they feel so unbelievable, like you get home 0:47:51.760 --> 0:47:54.000 from a trip and your your partners moved out. But 0:47:54.280 --> 0:47:58.279 there really are extreme versions of ghosting happening. And I've 0:47:58.280 --> 0:48:02.760 done research into this and very clear how people feel 0:48:03.280 --> 0:48:07.160 in terms of getting ghosted. People say, I'd rather you 0:48:07.200 --> 0:48:10.480 reject me outright. It hurts in the moment, but at 0:48:10.560 --> 0:48:13.000 least I know where we stand. But when it comes 0:48:13.000 --> 0:48:16.000 to the behavior, people say, oh, I would rather ghost 0:48:16.320 --> 0:48:19.920 it's less awkward than having that direct confrontation. And so 0:48:20.280 --> 0:48:24.640 I think you could attribute this to changes in digital communication, 0:48:25.360 --> 0:48:28.480 people not seeing the results of their action when they 0:48:28.520 --> 0:48:32.120 reject someone online instead of to their face. But yeah, 0:48:32.160 --> 0:48:35.120 I think ghosting really represents what you're talking about, which 0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:41.200 is people are afraid to outright reject someone. So what 0:48:41.239 --> 0:48:45.040 do you tell your clients. I say, just let them know. 0:48:45.200 --> 0:48:47.919 I say, in your notes app on your phone, save 0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:52.920 a template and it could say, hey, blank, I enjoyed 0:48:52.920 --> 0:48:55.560 getting to know you. I don't think we are a 0:48:55.680 --> 0:48:59.680 romantic match, thanks for thanks for the drink, thanks for 0:48:59.719 --> 0:49:01.560 a fun night, whatever you want to say, and you 0:49:01.640 --> 0:49:03.439 just you don't have to overthink it. You just send 0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:05.239 that message and it lets the person know we're not 0:49:05.239 --> 0:49:07.520 going to move forward. The worst thing is when you 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:10.600 leave somebody in this ambiguous space where they're saying, oh 0:49:10.600 --> 0:49:12.480 am I ever going to hear from Bob again? Is 0:49:12.560 --> 0:49:14.560 Loogan going to ask me out again? And it's in 0:49:14.600 --> 0:49:17.200 that space that you're really wasting someone's time. And so 0:49:17.600 --> 0:49:20.080 the research is very clear that the average person would 0:49:20.160 --> 0:49:22.440 rather be rejected. We just don't do it because it 0:49:22.480 --> 0:49:27.640 feels awkward. Okay, let's dive into hinge. You know, made 0:49:27.680 --> 0:49:31.800 to be deleted. So what's so great about Hinge? Yeah, 0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:35.200 first of all, I think Hinge is just really designed 0:49:35.200 --> 0:49:38.960 to get people into relationships. And so it's not about 0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:41.120 how do we make the app as fun as possible, 0:49:41.560 --> 0:49:43.879 how do we keep you on their swiping. It's really 0:49:43.920 --> 0:49:46.120 about how do we design something that's going to lead 0:49:46.160 --> 0:49:48.600 you to connect. So a couple of things that are cool. 0:49:48.719 --> 0:49:51.719 One is we talked about those audio prompts, so you 0:49:51.760 --> 0:49:56.640 could do an impression of of famous movie and say, uh, 0:49:56.760 --> 0:49:58.719 you know, name the movie. You could talk about how 0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:02.440 to pronounce your name, You could say, you know, this 0:50:02.480 --> 0:50:04.279 is what dating me sounds like. Whatever it is, I 0:50:04.280 --> 0:50:07.880 think that parts really fun. There's something called most Compatible, 0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:11.480 where every day they say here's one person that's a 0:50:11.560 --> 0:50:15.360 particularly good match for you. There's also Hinge was the 0:50:15.360 --> 0:50:18.200 first to create these things called prompts, which are kind 0:50:18.200 --> 0:50:22.239 of like icebreakers, so something like my typical Sunday or 0:50:22.560 --> 0:50:24.959 we're the same kind of weird if and it's really 0:50:24.960 --> 0:50:29.440 a chance to show off your personality. And then in general, 0:50:29.480 --> 0:50:33.319 I just think Hinge tends to attract people who are 0:50:34.080 --> 0:50:37.600 actually looking to have a conversation, connect and go on 0:50:37.640 --> 0:50:43.600 a date. Okay, bumble the woman gets to choose. That's 0:50:43.640 --> 0:50:46.600 attractive to a lot of men. So what do you 0:50:46.640 --> 0:50:50.200 say to both men and women about bumble? Yeah, I 0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:53.520 mean clients that I've worked with have used all kind 0:50:53.560 --> 0:50:56.799 of dating apps. I'm definitely more familiar with Hinge. I 0:50:56.840 --> 0:50:59.680 think it's also about seeing in your city which one 0:50:59.680 --> 0:51:02.040 works best for you, and so I would say, you know, 0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:04.040 you can give a few of them to try see 0:51:04.040 --> 0:51:08.200 where you have the most success, and then from there 0:51:08.280 --> 0:51:10.280 really invest in the one that seems to be working 0:51:10.280 --> 0:51:13.080 for you. So what exactly do you do it? Hinge? 0:51:14.040 --> 0:51:17.719 So I have this fancy title Director of Relationship Science, 0:51:18.239 --> 0:51:21.479 and what I get to do, which is a dream job, 0:51:21.800 --> 0:51:25.480 is conduct research into modern dating. And so, for example, 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:28.080 let's say six months ago, I was like, all right, 0:51:28.120 --> 0:51:30.000 I keep hearing about people who say I want to 0:51:30.080 --> 0:51:33.279 date someone who's done the work. Let's investigate how are 0:51:33.320 --> 0:51:36.840 people feeling about dating someone who's been in therapy. And 0:51:36.880 --> 0:51:39.400 that's where we came out with this concept that the 0:51:39.400 --> 0:51:44.280 biggest deal breaker for two would be if somebody doesn't 0:51:44.280 --> 0:51:47.000 go to therapy or somebody doesn't invest in their mental health. 0:51:47.400 --> 0:51:50.399 And then a few months ago, I was hearing more 0:51:50.440 --> 0:51:53.080 and more about how gen Z is just not that 0:51:53.160 --> 0:51:56.520 into drinking. They drink less than millennials did at the 0:51:56.600 --> 0:52:00.279 same age. There's a huge rise and nonalcoholic beverage is. 0:52:00.760 --> 0:52:03.240 It just really feels like there's a cultural shift away 0:52:03.239 --> 0:52:05.560 from drinking. And so I spent the last few months 0:52:05.600 --> 0:52:08.920 doing drink doing research into sober dates, and we found 0:52:08.960 --> 0:52:14.439 that there's been that date or is this summer would 0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:16.759 rather go on a date where they're not drinking, and 0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:19.680 that's twice as much for gen Z. Gen Z is, like, 0:52:20.000 --> 0:52:22.720 I really care about my mental health. I hate having 0:52:23.320 --> 0:52:25.799 a hangover. It makes me feel anxious. I want to 0:52:25.840 --> 0:52:27.520 be in the right state of mind when I date. 0:52:27.840 --> 0:52:30.480 And so now there's this big push towards sober dates. 0:52:30.560 --> 0:52:33.440 So I basically look at what's going on in culture, 0:52:33.560 --> 0:52:39.000 whether it's drinking, inflation, the pandemic, and then conduct research 0:52:39.080 --> 0:52:42.080 to see what impact is this having on dating? How 0:52:42.120 --> 0:52:45.440 exactly do you do it? Yeah, so we have a 0:52:45.480 --> 0:52:49.759 research team, really great researchers with a combination of qualitative 0:52:49.800 --> 0:52:53.080 research though talking to users, talking to people who don't 0:52:53.120 --> 0:52:57.080 use hinge, talking to Gen Z, millennials, boomers, Gen X, etcetera. 0:52:57.440 --> 0:52:59.840 And then we also conduct surveys that give us a 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:02.800 sense of what's going on with our users in the US, 0:53:02.920 --> 0:53:06.080 around the world, people who don't use Hinge yet, And 0:53:06.120 --> 0:53:09.080 so it's really just hearing those voices and getting those 0:53:09.080 --> 0:53:11.680 survey results to get a sense of what's happening in 0:53:11.800 --> 0:53:16.320 dating now with those people that you're surveying, be Hinge 0:53:16.360 --> 0:53:19.719 customers or just the public in general. So mostly we 0:53:19.800 --> 0:53:23.080 survey Hinge customers. Um, it's just kind of one of 0:53:23.120 --> 0:53:25.960 those things where it's a lot easier to reach them, 0:53:25.960 --> 0:53:28.880 but we have conducted surveys where we're talking to a 0:53:28.920 --> 0:53:32.719 broader population and it sort of just depends on what's 0:53:32.719 --> 0:53:36.440 the question that we're investigating. Okay, one other thing that 0:53:36.520 --> 0:53:40.360 struck me in your book was you said not to lie, 0:53:41.440 --> 0:53:44.440 and certainly when it comes to age, everybody I know 0:53:44.520 --> 0:53:48.080 on the app, unless they're very young in their twenties 0:53:48.400 --> 0:53:52.320 mid twenties, they all lie about their age, and they 0:53:52.360 --> 0:53:54.000 and then there's a usue of what kind of picture 0:53:54.040 --> 0:53:57.839 to put up? Talk about that. Yeah, I think that 0:53:57.840 --> 0:54:01.560 that trend has actually changed a bit. So I think 0:54:01.600 --> 0:54:04.080 there was a point where it was assumed, oh, everyone's 0:54:04.080 --> 0:54:07.880 adding two inches to their height. Everyone's subtracting five years 0:54:08.239 --> 0:54:11.000 from their age. I have found and I think this 0:54:11.160 --> 0:54:13.759 really just represents our culture that there's sort of an 0:54:13.760 --> 0:54:17.040 expectation that there's so much information about you online that 0:54:17.120 --> 0:54:19.960 it's not really worth it to lie. Somebody can google 0:54:20.000 --> 0:54:22.120 you and see what year you graduated high school or 0:54:22.160 --> 0:54:25.840 what year you graduated college. Somebody can put together the 0:54:25.880 --> 0:54:28.799 pieces based on your LinkedIn and so in general I 0:54:28.880 --> 0:54:32.920 see people not lying about their age. The hype thing 0:54:33.040 --> 0:54:36.799 is hard to tell. Um. I know that people feel like, oh, 0:54:36.880 --> 0:54:39.160 if I'm this hight, you know women are going to 0:54:39.239 --> 0:54:43.080 filter me out. But my opinion on this is that 0:54:43.120 --> 0:54:45.920 you don't want to show up on a date starting 0:54:45.960 --> 0:54:48.399 from a place of deception. You don't want to start 0:54:48.440 --> 0:54:52.839 and say, hey, I'm actually fifty two. But if I 0:54:52.880 --> 0:54:55.360 put forty eight, I'm more likely to get matches, and 0:54:55.360 --> 0:54:57.200 so I did that. I think it just starts from 0:54:57.200 --> 0:54:59.040 a weird place. I think you want to start from 0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:01.719 a place of confidence and a place of honesty and 0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:04.640 build from there. I think this is going to change, 0:55:05.239 --> 0:55:08.320 or I'm interested to see what happens in our society 0:55:08.400 --> 0:55:12.000 with the proliferation of egg phrasing, because part of dating 0:55:12.080 --> 0:55:14.840 is that you want to date somebody who maybe you 0:55:14.880 --> 0:55:17.400 could have a kid with. And men start doing the 0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:20.320 calculation in their head, right, they think, oh, she's thirty five, 0:55:20.800 --> 0:55:23.040 we would meet, we would date for two years, we'd 0:55:23.040 --> 0:55:26.279 get married when we're thirty seven. Um, you know, she 0:55:26.360 --> 0:55:28.520 can only have a kid until this age. And people 0:55:28.560 --> 0:55:32.919 start doing this fertility math. But as people do egg 0:55:32.960 --> 0:55:36.799 freezing and things like that, they're actually sort of changing 0:55:36.960 --> 0:55:40.480 their biological age and changing their fertility calculation. And so 0:55:40.800 --> 0:55:43.439 I'm not sure how that would be incorporated into an app, 0:55:43.480 --> 0:55:47.400 but I can see a world where people are thinking 0:55:47.440 --> 0:55:53.120 differently about age because of some of the scientific advancements 0:55:53.160 --> 0:55:57.799 that come along. Have you frozen your eggs? Yeah, and 0:55:57.880 --> 0:55:59.960 so in a perfect world, since you're now in control 0:56:00.000 --> 0:56:02.839 old But as you say, people change when would you 0:56:02.880 --> 0:56:06.480 like to have children? Yeah, it's an interesting thing. So 0:56:06.640 --> 0:56:10.640 my husband worked at Google and he got egg freezing 0:56:10.680 --> 0:56:13.799 as a benefit, and so I really like yeah. I 0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:16.520 was like, hey, I'm not gonna say no to a 0:56:16.640 --> 0:56:20.839 very expensive benefit. And so four years ago we did 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:23.120 embryo freezing. So you know what means, it's my eggs 0:56:23.120 --> 0:56:26.120 and then they're fertilized by his sperm. And so now 0:56:26.160 --> 0:56:29.840 I'm thirty four. But it makes me feel like I 0:56:29.920 --> 0:56:32.120 have these thirty year old eggs, and so I'm not 0:56:32.160 --> 0:56:34.080 sure when we're going to have kids, but I feel 0:56:34.120 --> 0:56:37.439 a little less pressure because if we decide to use them, 0:56:37.800 --> 0:56:41.040 we have these very nice thirty year old eggs. The 0:56:41.120 --> 0:56:44.120 other thing is that my husband went through cancer treatment 0:56:44.200 --> 0:56:46.839 for the last two years, and so I don't know 0:56:46.880 --> 0:56:49.200 the deal with his sperm, but it might just be 0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:52.000 that the embryos that we froze when we were both 0:56:52.000 --> 0:56:55.080 thirty are in better shape than his sperm is now, 0:56:55.120 --> 0:56:59.200 and so I just feel really grateful that we did that. So, 0:56:59.320 --> 0:57:02.320 since you're in the Ellia the Beast, is this really 0:57:02.440 --> 0:57:06.440 just upper middle class and wealthy people freezing the rags 0:57:06.880 --> 0:57:11.200 or is it promeating the whole socioeconomic strata. For now, 0:57:11.239 --> 0:57:15.279 it's definitely a very privileged thing. It's really expensive. It's 0:57:17.200 --> 0:57:21.440 uh yeah, it's a benefit at high paying tech companies. 0:57:21.720 --> 0:57:25.840 I think over time, as it becomes more common, more 0:57:25.880 --> 0:57:29.080 insurers will pay for it, more employers will pay for it. 0:57:29.400 --> 0:57:31.520 For now, I would say it's definitely in the upper 0:57:31.560 --> 0:57:35.640 middle class, privileged sector. But if you're thinking ahead ten 0:57:35.720 --> 0:57:41.680 or fifteen years, what happens when maybe women at just say, hey, 0:57:41.720 --> 0:57:44.640 you know, instead of grad school, or you know, instead 0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:46.440 of instead of giving me some money for grad school, 0:57:46.440 --> 0:57:48.720 I would love if I could get money towards egg 0:57:48.720 --> 0:57:51.160 freezing or things like that. I'm not sure where our 0:57:51.160 --> 0:57:53.040 culture is going on that, but if you just think 0:57:53.040 --> 0:57:56.480 about the fact that dating decisions in your twenties and 0:57:56.560 --> 0:58:00.760 thirties are often based on assumptions about fertility. If that 0:58:00.840 --> 0:58:04.240 fertility number shifts back five or ten years, how will 0:58:04.280 --> 0:58:08.160 that change dating? Okay, so you have this gig it 0:58:08.480 --> 0:58:11.360 hinge and you're also a dating coach. How do you 0:58:11.400 --> 0:58:14.720 split your time? How much time you're working on either one? Yeah? 0:58:14.920 --> 0:58:17.880 So Hinge has been really understanding about the fact that 0:58:17.920 --> 0:58:19.560 I love to do this one on one work and 0:58:19.600 --> 0:58:21.520 it informs the work that I do there. So it 0:58:21.600 --> 0:58:23.600 might be like a client of mine says something about 0:58:23.640 --> 0:58:26.560 being sober, and then I end up thinking about that 0:58:26.600 --> 0:58:31.400 and turning it into a research project. And so I 0:58:31.440 --> 0:58:34.520 do my hinge job during the day. It's based on 0:58:34.560 --> 0:58:36.160 the East Coast, and I live on the West Coast, 0:58:36.160 --> 0:58:38.040 so I start pretty early and I do my hinge job, 0:58:38.080 --> 0:58:41.240 and then I coach people in the evenings after work, 0:58:41.640 --> 0:58:44.280 and I also teach a dating class called Dates Smarter. 0:58:45.000 --> 0:58:47.840 And I'm really moving in some ways away from the 0:58:47.880 --> 0:58:50.800 one on one coaching and more towards this class because 0:58:50.840 --> 0:58:54.080 I feel like there's something about learning information in a 0:58:54.120 --> 0:58:57.960 community that's way more powerful than any individual thing that 0:58:58.000 --> 0:59:04.160 I could say in a session. Okay, so what came first, 0:59:04.200 --> 0:59:07.520 the book or the coaching. The coaching came first. The 0:59:07.560 --> 0:59:11.000 coaching was basically I was like, all right, I am 0:59:11.080 --> 0:59:14.760 extremely interested in this topic. I've been doing research on it. 0:59:15.360 --> 0:59:18.520 I've been doing interviews with people who are experts in 0:59:18.520 --> 0:59:21.280 the field, I've been reading books. I went to a 0:59:21.360 --> 0:59:23.360 dating coach, and now I was like, how can I 0:59:23.400 --> 0:59:26.960 share what I know with people? Time out? Tell us 0:59:27.000 --> 0:59:30.360 about you going to the dating chare. Yeah, So basically, 0:59:30.680 --> 0:59:34.160 I mean, how many years ago is this? Maybe eight 0:59:34.240 --> 0:59:38.000 or nine years ago? I was dating lots of people, 0:59:38.120 --> 0:59:40.560 I was using apps, and I met this guy at 0:59:40.560 --> 0:59:44.320 Burning Man and I was just very crazy about him. 0:59:44.840 --> 0:59:48.160 And I don't know if attachment theory and that whole 0:59:48.720 --> 0:59:52.120 genre has come across your desk, but basically I was 0:59:52.240 --> 0:59:55.240 very anxiously attached. I would find someone and kind of 0:59:55.960 --> 0:59:58.680 glob onto them and try to convince them to like me. 0:59:58.720 --> 1:00:00.840 And I really thought it was like achieving a goal, 1:00:00.960 --> 1:00:03.280 you know, you just have to prove your value to 1:00:03.320 --> 1:00:06.160 somebody and eventually they'll like you. And this guy had 1:00:06.160 --> 1:00:09.800 the opposite attachment style. He was avoidantly attached and basically 1:00:09.840 --> 1:00:12.000 as somebody got too close, he would push them away. 1:00:12.120 --> 1:00:13.920 And so we met at Bernie Man, and when we 1:00:13.960 --> 1:00:16.120 came back to the Bay Area, I thought that we 1:00:16.160 --> 1:00:18.800 would date, and we were in this cycle where I 1:00:18.840 --> 1:00:21.600 would smother him and he would pull away, and it 1:00:21.680 --> 1:00:23.560 was just going back and forth, and I felt very 1:00:23.680 --> 1:00:27.240 hurt by it. I felt out of control. I felt confused, 1:00:27.840 --> 1:00:32.000 and someone that I know recommended a dating coach, which 1:00:32.040 --> 1:00:34.040 I didn't even know that that existed at the time, 1:00:34.240 --> 1:00:36.920 and I went to see this woman and through seeing 1:00:36.920 --> 1:00:42.080 this woman, I learned to focus on the things that mattered. 1:00:42.120 --> 1:00:45.520 And so, for example, she made me do an exercise 1:00:45.520 --> 1:00:47.400 where I thought about how I wanted my partner to 1:00:47.400 --> 1:00:49.840 make me feel. I said, I wanted my partner to 1:00:49.920 --> 1:00:55.760 make me feel desired, attractive, inspired, confident, happy, all of 1:00:55.800 --> 1:00:58.000 these great emotions. And when I thought about how this 1:00:58.040 --> 1:01:00.000 guy from Bernie Man made me feel, it was the opposite. 1:01:00.000 --> 1:01:02.919 That he made me feel like I wasn't good enough, 1:01:02.960 --> 1:01:05.080 like I was insecure. Was he going to call me? 1:01:05.280 --> 1:01:07.680 Was he not going to call me? I never knew 1:01:07.680 --> 1:01:10.240 where I stood. And I realized that this guy at 1:01:10.240 --> 1:01:12.160 work that I had been spending time with as a 1:01:12.200 --> 1:01:15.440 friend made me feel exactly the way that I wanted 1:01:15.480 --> 1:01:17.880 somebody to feel. But I had written him off for 1:01:17.960 --> 1:01:21.560 a number of reasons, and I basically realized that that 1:01:21.600 --> 1:01:23.400 was the kind of person that I should be with. 1:01:23.560 --> 1:01:27.439 And now I'm married to that person. Okay, so then 1:01:27.720 --> 1:01:30.880 talk about starting your own coaching business. Yeah, so in 1:01:30.920 --> 1:01:35.440 the beginning, I coached people for free. And there is 1:01:35.480 --> 1:01:37.680 some research that came out about ten years ago from 1:01:37.680 --> 1:01:40.640 okay Cupid about what a hard time black women have 1:01:40.760 --> 1:01:42.600 on the apps. And so two groups that have a 1:01:42.640 --> 1:01:45.440 really hard time, or black women and Asian men. And 1:01:45.480 --> 1:01:48.640 so I actually started off my coaching business by coaching 1:01:48.680 --> 1:01:51.160 for free a couple of my black female friends who 1:01:51.200 --> 1:01:54.440 were having trouble, and I would develop some of the 1:01:54.480 --> 1:01:56.800 techniques that I still think are some of my my 1:01:56.840 --> 1:01:58.640 best things. Like I have this thing called the post 1:01:58.760 --> 1:02:01.720 date eight. It's a questions that you ask yourself after 1:02:01.760 --> 1:02:04.320 a date to tune into how the person made you 1:02:04.360 --> 1:02:07.080 feel and if you should see them again. I have 1:02:07.200 --> 1:02:11.080 this concept called the events decision matrix, which is really 1:02:11.320 --> 1:02:13.520 paying attention to what types of events you should go 1:02:13.520 --> 1:02:16.840 to to meet people, with the insight being events where 1:02:16.880 --> 1:02:19.520 you're likely to interact with people and you're likely to 1:02:19.960 --> 1:02:26.200 have a good time. And I moved from doing free coaching, 1:02:26.520 --> 1:02:29.600 was charging people, you know, a small rate, and then 1:02:29.800 --> 1:02:32.640 just it became friends and then friends of friends, and 1:02:33.240 --> 1:02:36.840 through that I what happened next, Yeah, I just I 1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:39.680 was really enjoying coaching and people were really benefiting from it, 1:02:39.840 --> 1:02:43.360 and so I continued to do it. And then I 1:02:43.400 --> 1:02:46.960 was working at Airbnb at the time, and I was like, 1:02:47.000 --> 1:02:49.600 all right, I want to turn this dating thing into 1:02:49.960 --> 1:02:51.680 a full time job, but I don't know how to 1:02:51.720 --> 1:02:54.640 do that, and so I took a three month sabbatical 1:02:54.680 --> 1:02:58.920 from Airbnb and I worked for a professor. And what 1:02:59.000 --> 1:03:01.200 I found was that this professor was brilliant and I 1:03:01.240 --> 1:03:05.840 loved his research, but it wasn't necessarily designed for lay audience. 1:03:05.920 --> 1:03:07.920 It was more for academics. And so I was like, 1:03:07.960 --> 1:03:11.920 how can I take the amazing research that's happening in 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:15.000 all of these labs and how can I be the 1:03:15.040 --> 1:03:17.760 translator that brings it to the average person to help 1:03:17.840 --> 1:03:22.160 them date. And so that really became my goal. And 1:03:22.200 --> 1:03:24.840 so then I left my job at Airbnb. I did 1:03:24.840 --> 1:03:28.040 a program at TED where I basically worked from the 1:03:28.080 --> 1:03:31.440 TED office. I conducted research on breakups and then I 1:03:31.440 --> 1:03:34.240 gave a TED talk and then through that experience, I 1:03:34.280 --> 1:03:37.480 got my book deal. And the book was amazing because 1:03:37.520 --> 1:03:40.680 I think we all need deadlines, we all need containers, 1:03:40.760 --> 1:03:42.240 and so I was like, all right, I have to 1:03:42.280 --> 1:03:46.720 write whatever it wasn't eighty thousand or ninety thousand page 1:03:46.720 --> 1:03:50.000 word book. And during that time I did more coaching, 1:03:50.040 --> 1:03:54.880 which was research. I did more interviews. I had dinners 1:03:54.880 --> 1:03:57.320 where I would discuss big topics with people, and then 1:03:57.320 --> 1:04:01.080 through my book, that's how I got the job at HINGE. Well, 1:04:01.120 --> 1:04:03.520 you know, looking at the New York Times article, it 1:04:03.600 --> 1:04:08.960 looks like at the present time, coaching is quite lucrative. Yeah. 1:04:09.000 --> 1:04:13.760 I mean, I feel like dating and finding love is 1:04:13.800 --> 1:04:17.280 pretty recession proof. If you are single and looking for love, 1:04:17.880 --> 1:04:21.080 that is probably the biggest motivator in your life is 1:04:21.160 --> 1:04:24.200 to find someone. And I feel like I'm offering something 1:04:24.240 --> 1:04:28.920 that's different. I'm offering very realistic advice. I'm offering advice 1:04:29.000 --> 1:04:32.920 that changes your behavior and helps you overcome bad patterns. 1:04:33.320 --> 1:04:35.560 And I also think by the time somebody's coming to me, 1:04:35.640 --> 1:04:38.960 they've tried other things. They've tried dating by themselves, they've 1:04:38.960 --> 1:04:41.560 tried asking for help from their friends, and they really 1:04:41.600 --> 1:04:47.040 need to work with somebody who's going to completely shift 1:04:47.120 --> 1:04:51.320 the way that they show up and dating. Okay, So 1:04:51.400 --> 1:04:54.920 another therapist I saw for a long time, he gave 1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:57.200 he would tell me what to do. And anybody has 1:04:57.200 --> 1:04:59.240 had a lot of therapy know they don't literally tell 1:04:59.240 --> 1:05:01.320 you what to do your It's a very subtle hint 1:05:01.760 --> 1:05:05.080 and made the biggest mistake of my life. The present 1:05:05.160 --> 1:05:08.160 therapist I see never in a million years would tell 1:05:08.200 --> 1:05:10.680 me anything what to do. You know, you wouldn't call him. 1:05:10.760 --> 1:05:13.760 You would just say, well, we'll talk about the next session. So, 1:05:14.320 --> 1:05:18.200 thinking about your business, people are working with you, they're 1:05:18.240 --> 1:05:23.000 doing what you tell them to, they're having success. Then 1:05:23.120 --> 1:05:25.920 do they say, Okay, I'm in a relationship I need 1:05:26.280 --> 1:05:28.919 I can't break away, I need your advice. I gotta 1:05:29.000 --> 1:05:32.720 call you to sustain the relationship. Yeah, I mean I 1:05:32.920 --> 1:05:34.600 that's a great problem for me to have. I like 1:05:34.720 --> 1:05:36.720 to say that I help people find love and I 1:05:36.760 --> 1:05:41.280 help people not fuck it up, and so so okay, 1:05:41.320 --> 1:05:43.760 so let's see my found love and let's sue I 1:05:43.840 --> 1:05:47.800 get I'm moving towards marriage or I might even have marriage. 1:05:48.280 --> 1:05:51.880 To what percentage of your clients stay connected during that phase? 1:05:52.720 --> 1:05:55.280 It depends you know. Some people I see over a 1:05:55.320 --> 1:05:57.360 period of time. I had a guy who started with 1:05:57.360 --> 1:06:01.600 me when he was single. Then once he found a relationship, 1:06:01.680 --> 1:06:04.880 I started working with him and his girlfriend and we 1:06:04.920 --> 1:06:06.720 would meet the three of us who I would meet 1:06:06.720 --> 1:06:09.200 with each of them one on one. Then I coached 1:06:09.240 --> 1:06:12.040 them through getting married, and now I've coached them through 1:06:12.080 --> 1:06:14.160 having their first kid. And so there's people where it's 1:06:14.200 --> 1:06:16.600 like we just have a really good dynamic. I feel 1:06:16.640 --> 1:06:19.400 so invested in them and we just keep working together. 1:06:19.880 --> 1:06:22.560 There's people where we work together for a year and 1:06:22.800 --> 1:06:25.720 by the end maybe they've been in a relationship while 1:06:25.720 --> 1:06:28.800 we're together, but they've broken up. It really depends on 1:06:28.840 --> 1:06:31.880 the person. By the time people find me, they've often 1:06:31.960 --> 1:06:35.480 had a lot of struggles, and so I never say 1:06:35.520 --> 1:06:37.080 to someone, you know you're going to meet the love 1:06:37.080 --> 1:06:39.400 of your life in three months, like, I can't control you. 1:06:39.520 --> 1:06:42.200 I can't control the people you're meeting. What I can 1:06:42.320 --> 1:06:45.240 do is making sure that you're aware of your behavior 1:06:45.640 --> 1:06:50.320 and that you have a plan for how to act differently. Okay, 1:06:50.480 --> 1:06:54.080 so all your clients come from word of mouth? No, 1:06:54.080 --> 1:06:56.600 now that now that the book came out, I would 1:06:56.640 --> 1:06:59.240 say most of my clients come through the book or 1:06:59.280 --> 1:07:01.720 podcast that I have been on. And so that's been 1:07:01.720 --> 1:07:04.200 really fun because it's really changed the range of people 1:07:04.240 --> 1:07:06.960 I work with. I now work with people around the world, 1:07:07.080 --> 1:07:14.280 people probably from you know, twenties to seventies. Um. I 1:07:14.280 --> 1:07:16.520 I feel like there's just a lot more diversity and 1:07:16.560 --> 1:07:18.840 who I work with because people are hearing about me. 1:07:18.920 --> 1:07:23.240 They're not just one or two degrees removed from my community. 1:07:23.800 --> 1:07:30.120 So presently, how many individual clients do you have honestly, 1:07:30.160 --> 1:07:32.400 I would have to look it up. I feel like 1:07:32.840 --> 1:07:35.400 there are people who maybe have one session left as 1:07:35.440 --> 1:07:37.520 part of a package and are saving that for one 1:07:37.520 --> 1:07:41.200 big final conversation. And so it's not an exact number 1:07:41.240 --> 1:07:43.760 because there are people who sort of still have like 1:07:43.760 --> 1:07:48.080 an hour with me that they can cash in it sometime. Okay, 1:07:48.120 --> 1:07:50.640 well let me put a different way. I see that 1:07:50.720 --> 1:07:53.320 you have an assistant. How many people were in your 1:07:53.400 --> 1:07:56.280 organization just the two of you? Oh yeah, that was funny. 1:07:56.360 --> 1:07:58.880 They called through the assistant in the article and I 1:07:58.960 --> 1:08:01.840 was like, she's really not my assistant. She's smarter than 1:08:01.880 --> 1:08:04.120 I am. She does all of the operations. I feel 1:08:04.160 --> 1:08:06.400 so lucky that she works for me. I don't know 1:08:06.440 --> 1:08:08.479 if you have somebody like this, or if you've worked 1:08:08.480 --> 1:08:10.680 with someone like this where you're just like you keep 1:08:10.760 --> 1:08:14.919 me like, I can't imagine working without her. And so 1:08:15.240 --> 1:08:17.479 I have her who works for me full time basically 1:08:17.560 --> 1:08:20.280 running the class that we teach, um doing a lot 1:08:20.320 --> 1:08:23.360 of the operations. She's just like on top of the 1:08:23.360 --> 1:08:26.920 website and everything else. She is fantastic. And then I 1:08:27.040 --> 1:08:30.200 also have somebody who works with me doing social media, 1:08:30.240 --> 1:08:33.479 and so that's helping me with whether the visual design 1:08:33.920 --> 1:08:38.120 or responding to comments or editing videos. And that's something 1:08:38.160 --> 1:08:41.080 where it's like, how do I take a three hundred 1:08:41.120 --> 1:08:45.160 and thirty page book and turn one small concept into 1:08:45.240 --> 1:08:47.840 a video that people can then understand even if they're 1:08:47.840 --> 1:08:50.640 never going to buy the book. Well, there's only so 1:08:50.680 --> 1:08:52.960 many hours in a week, and you say you're trans 1:08:52.960 --> 1:08:58.200 transitioning into a more group, but how much can you handle? 1:08:58.240 --> 1:09:02.800 How many people can you are quote service at one time? Yeah, 1:09:02.840 --> 1:09:05.960 it's interesting. I think about the scale. So with Hinge, 1:09:06.280 --> 1:09:12.519 I'm doing research that represents millions of Hinge users around 1:09:12.560 --> 1:09:17.720 the world, right, and then with my writing, you know, 1:09:17.840 --> 1:09:21.120 many thousands of people have bought my book. With a podcast, 1:09:21.360 --> 1:09:23.439 you can have thousands of people, right. So it's like 1:09:23.479 --> 1:09:26.760 going from the highest, biggest scale down to the one 1:09:26.800 --> 1:09:29.360 on one coaching. And I feel like where I am 1:09:29.400 --> 1:09:32.040 really enjoying right now is these classes. So the last 1:09:32.040 --> 1:09:34.040 class I had had a dred and twenty people in it. 1:09:34.439 --> 1:09:37.040 I think the age ranges from seventy four, oh sorry, 1:09:37.040 --> 1:09:40.479 from to seventy four. And I think it's so great 1:09:40.560 --> 1:09:42.760 is that I can give people advice and I can 1:09:42.760 --> 1:09:46.160 give people information. But there's something special about learning in 1:09:46.160 --> 1:09:49.680 a community where you hear somebody else express a problem 1:09:49.760 --> 1:09:52.720 that you used to have and you no longer have, 1:09:53.280 --> 1:09:56.439 and hearing that person talk about their issue makes you 1:09:56.479 --> 1:09:59.120 realize how far you've come. Or maybe you advise somebody 1:09:59.120 --> 1:10:02.040 else who's where you where five years ago, and things 1:10:02.080 --> 1:10:05.920 like that. Um, there's these affinity groups right, dating over fifty, 1:10:06.120 --> 1:10:09.559 dating as a single parent, um, dating as a queer 1:10:09.600 --> 1:10:13.479 person in a rural community, dating with chronic illness. And 1:10:13.520 --> 1:10:16.880 so I'm creating this community of vetted single people and 1:10:16.920 --> 1:10:19.720 then allowing them to connect to help each other. And 1:10:19.760 --> 1:10:22.960 they spend so much time. They start texting each other, 1:10:23.040 --> 1:10:25.360 they meet up in person, they form What's app groups, 1:10:25.360 --> 1:10:28.680 and so I feel like I'm really designing this container 1:10:28.800 --> 1:10:32.160 for all these amazing people to meet. I give them information, 1:10:32.280 --> 1:10:34.479 I teach them, I give them feedback. But I think 1:10:34.520 --> 1:10:36.920 they're learning just as much or more from each other. 1:10:37.320 --> 1:10:40.120 And what I've really done is brought them all together. Okay, 1:10:40.160 --> 1:10:42.719 at this point in time, and I realized it's changing. 1:10:43.040 --> 1:10:45.240 What percentage of your time is one on one, what 1:10:45.360 --> 1:10:52.400 percentage your time is group? Huh? You know it depends 1:10:52.439 --> 1:10:55.559 for the classes. Like I would say, let's say I 1:10:55.600 --> 1:10:59.000 teach four or five live sessions, I might spend fifty 1:10:59.040 --> 1:11:02.840 hours or more preparing the material for the one or 1:11:02.880 --> 1:11:04.840 one and a half hour session, and so it's sort 1:11:04.840 --> 1:11:08.920 of like, I know, that's kind of a sidestepping the question, 1:11:09.000 --> 1:11:12.280 but I guess I would maybe say fifty fifty right now. 1:11:12.320 --> 1:11:15.559 But it really depends because the classes are only in 1:11:15.600 --> 1:11:17.919 session a few times a year, but there's a tremendous 1:11:17.920 --> 1:11:20.800 amount of prep that goes into them. So what's the 1:11:20.880 --> 1:11:29.200 dream I'm figuring that out. I mean, I love being 1:11:29.240 --> 1:11:32.920 in conversation with people, like I'm really enjoyed talking to 1:11:32.960 --> 1:11:35.400 you right now. I have had the chance to do 1:11:35.479 --> 1:11:38.600 some TV interviews and I I really like that. I 1:11:38.600 --> 1:11:41.160 feel like there's an adrenaline rush to being live and 1:11:41.240 --> 1:11:43.320 you have to make your points and say the right 1:11:43.360 --> 1:11:49.439 thing and banter. Um. I enjoyed writing my book, but 1:11:49.600 --> 1:11:53.400 it's also really hard, and it's really like quite a 1:11:53.479 --> 1:11:57.040 solo task for me as someone who's so social, and 1:11:57.120 --> 1:11:59.400 so I'm just trying to figure it out. How do 1:11:59.520 --> 1:12:02.360 I get at the information that I really care about 1:12:02.400 --> 1:12:05.680 out there? How do I keep it elevated so I'm 1:12:05.720 --> 1:12:09.599 not just you know, engaging in the days TikTok trend. 1:12:09.720 --> 1:12:12.840 But yeah, I think I'm just really trying to figure 1:12:12.840 --> 1:12:16.200 out how do I keep on top of what's going 1:12:16.240 --> 1:12:26.960 on in dating and help as many people as possible. Well, 1:12:26.960 --> 1:12:29.200 you know, I don't want to talk about things that 1:12:29.400 --> 1:12:33.000 veered towards cults, but if you certainly look in the past, 1:12:33.520 --> 1:12:36.200 they are all these organizations, some of which still exists, 1:12:36.280 --> 1:12:40.560 which have really grown exponentially. It's a big business, Okay. 1:12:40.600 --> 1:12:44.280 Is that your goal to be like the dating coach 1:12:44.960 --> 1:12:47.720 of you know, of America. I realize your worldwide, but 1:12:48.160 --> 1:12:50.880 oh yeah, you want to go everybody knows that's where 1:12:50.880 --> 1:12:54.720 you go to go. You go to Logan's place. I'm 1:12:54.760 --> 1:12:57.599 not sure. I think the way that I think about 1:12:57.680 --> 1:13:00.400 my life is how you spend your day days, and 1:13:00.439 --> 1:13:02.960 how you spend your weeks, and how you spend your years. Right, 1:13:03.000 --> 1:13:04.760 So I could tell you, oh, I want to make 1:13:04.800 --> 1:13:07.000 this many millions of dollars a year by this date, 1:13:07.040 --> 1:13:08.400 and I'll figure out a way to get there, But 1:13:08.439 --> 1:13:10.679 that's not really what motivates me. I want to spend 1:13:10.680 --> 1:13:13.760 my time on Earth doing things I like. And so 1:13:13.880 --> 1:13:15.880 if I had to spend the next two years alone 1:13:15.880 --> 1:13:18.000 writing a book that doesn't sound fun to me. I 1:13:18.040 --> 1:13:22.040 don't really enjoy being alone thinking in front of a 1:13:22.200 --> 1:13:25.440 blinking cursor. What I really enjoy is being in conversation 1:13:25.479 --> 1:13:27.640 with people. And so I would say, right now, I 1:13:27.640 --> 1:13:29.760 feel really lucky. I've been able to figure out a 1:13:29.840 --> 1:13:34.479 job that I can live the lifestyle that I want. 1:13:34.640 --> 1:13:37.559 I can work with interesting people. I can pay for 1:13:37.720 --> 1:13:39.880 Kimberly to work for me full time. I can do 1:13:39.960 --> 1:13:43.000 research at Hinge. Like right now, I'm getting a lot 1:13:43.040 --> 1:13:46.960 of those needs met. I think. I think that, yeah, 1:13:46.960 --> 1:13:49.080 this is just like a deeper conversation that I need 1:13:49.120 --> 1:13:52.360 to have, probably with myself or with my husband. That's 1:13:52.400 --> 1:13:55.360 just like, how do I make sure that I'm spending 1:13:55.400 --> 1:13:58.320 my time in a way that makes me happy and 1:13:58.360 --> 1:14:00.760 not just in pursuit of some big your goal that 1:14:00.800 --> 1:14:05.040 maybe is actually kind of egotistical or empty. So let's 1:14:05.040 --> 1:14:08.640 assume someone listening to this podcast is interested in your services. 1:14:09.320 --> 1:14:13.960 The most of the people come through, uh, connecting via 1:14:13.960 --> 1:14:16.840 your website or social media. How do they find you 1:14:17.240 --> 1:14:21.799 to connect? Yeah, so the two biggest ways are following 1:14:21.800 --> 1:14:26.360 me on Instagram or subscribing to my newsletter. I have 1:14:26.439 --> 1:14:29.240 a weekly newsletter called Logan's Love letter, and every week 1:14:29.280 --> 1:14:32.040 I post dating advice or the latest trends in dating. 1:14:32.640 --> 1:14:35.360 Sometimes I'll talk about a piece of writing that I've done. 1:14:35.920 --> 1:14:40.160 People respond I write back, it's it's fifty people right now, 1:14:40.200 --> 1:14:43.599 and it's a pretty engaged community, and that's the best 1:14:43.600 --> 1:14:45.559 way to kind of follow along with what I'm doing. 1:14:45.720 --> 1:14:47.680 And then, as we talked about a lot of my 1:14:47.720 --> 1:14:51.080 work is trending towards the State Smarter class and some 1:14:51.120 --> 1:14:54.160 people are like, no, no, no, I'm so unique. I 1:14:54.200 --> 1:14:55.920 need to meet with you one on one. And I'm like, 1:14:55.960 --> 1:14:58.719 give this chance, give this class a chance. I feel 1:14:58.720 --> 1:15:01.120 like you will get your needs at and you'll probably 1:15:01.160 --> 1:15:02.880 have more fun than you think you could have on 1:15:02.920 --> 1:15:08.200 a on a zoom class. Okay, so I'm interested. What's 1:15:08.240 --> 1:15:11.000 the nexus they connect with you or they connect with 1:15:11.080 --> 1:15:13.800 Kimberly in terms of putting them in lane. You know 1:15:13.960 --> 1:15:17.200 I'm playing, I'm I'm ready to play. Yeah, they would 1:15:17.240 --> 1:15:20.280 just email me or sign up. They could email me 1:15:20.320 --> 1:15:22.400 it's logan at logan eari dot com, or they could 1:15:22.439 --> 1:15:25.000 sign up for the Date Smarter waiting list on my website. 1:15:25.360 --> 1:15:28.120 And then when the next class is announced, which I 1:15:28.160 --> 1:15:31.800 think it's going to happen in September. We would just 1:15:31.880 --> 1:15:34.800 let them know, like applications are open um, but I 1:15:34.840 --> 1:15:38.240 do get emails from people around the world asking specific questions. 1:15:38.240 --> 1:15:41.040 Sometimes I can help. Sometimes I'm just like, this isn't 1:15:41.439 --> 1:15:43.320 you know a question that's a good fit for me, 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:45.800 Or I don't feel like I have enough context to 1:15:45.880 --> 1:15:50.599 give you an appropriate answer. But yeah, I would say, 1:15:50.600 --> 1:15:57.679 I'm I'm reachable online. Okay, I'm excited and I want 1:15:57.720 --> 1:16:01.200 to and I contact you and I want to have 1:16:01.360 --> 1:16:05.360 one on one. What then happens? Yeah, I would just 1:16:05.400 --> 1:16:07.519 send you an email letting you know when I have 1:16:07.560 --> 1:16:10.400 a spot available and what it costs, and seeing if 1:16:10.439 --> 1:16:14.120 that's something that fits with you. Okay, So let's assume 1:16:14.160 --> 1:16:19.520 I'm interested and uh, you know, I'm ready to play. 1:16:19.640 --> 1:16:23.040 When might a spot be available? And what is the 1:16:23.120 --> 1:16:26.960 pay package? Is it? Okay? If we don't talk about 1:16:26.960 --> 1:16:30.240 the pay okay, but the pay the pay is not 1:16:30.400 --> 1:16:34.519 cheap in any event. Okay, So let's start with when 1:16:34.680 --> 1:16:38.160 might I you be available? Yeah, I have some spots 1:16:38.200 --> 1:16:39.960 opening up in the next few months. People who I 1:16:39.960 --> 1:16:42.559 started with around six months ago are starting to wrap up, 1:16:42.560 --> 1:16:44.800 and so I have some of those spots and then 1:16:44.920 --> 1:16:47.920 usually what happens is I meet with somebody, we do 1:16:48.200 --> 1:16:50.880 an initial assessment, right, you know, I asked them about 1:16:50.880 --> 1:16:54.320 the relationship history. I have some homework that they do 1:16:54.439 --> 1:16:56.680 before we meet. We really talked about like what's been 1:16:56.680 --> 1:17:00.439 going on? Okay, what's really going on? What? What? What? Well, 1:17:00.439 --> 1:17:05.759 a little bit slower so I'm into one on one coaching. 1:17:06.760 --> 1:17:09.960 First thing is I say, I'm into it. Next thing 1:17:10.080 --> 1:17:13.120 you say is I have to have a time. So 1:17:13.200 --> 1:17:15.640 how often do you have a time available or does 1:17:15.680 --> 1:17:18.760 that person have to wait? Yeah? So you know the 1:17:18.800 --> 1:17:22.680 system Calendarly, I do not. Yeah. Anyway, it's so just 1:17:22.760 --> 1:17:25.439 a calendar booking system. So I would say to them like, hey, 1:17:25.520 --> 1:17:28.439 here's the price. Um, if you want to move forward, 1:17:28.560 --> 1:17:31.120 you can book your first session through Calendarly. They can 1:17:31.160 --> 1:17:33.080 just like look ahead at the openings that I have 1:17:33.560 --> 1:17:35.519 and then send me the payment and then we would 1:17:35.520 --> 1:17:38.880 get started. However far out the first session is, so 1:17:38.920 --> 1:17:42.920 maybe it would be six weeks? Okay, So what are 1:17:42.960 --> 1:17:46.519 the options irrelevant of price which you'd rather not get into. 1:17:46.960 --> 1:17:49.559 Can you buy two sessions? Do you have to buy ten? 1:17:49.760 --> 1:17:53.000 How does it work? Right now? People are buying six sessions. 1:17:53.080 --> 1:17:55.559 That's something that I've changed over time. I found like 1:17:55.840 --> 1:18:00.240 I found that six sessions is enough where the first 1:18:00.280 --> 1:18:04.920 few I can really understand who you are here, your backstory, 1:18:05.240 --> 1:18:08.200 give you some assignments, send you out into the world 1:18:08.240 --> 1:18:11.320 with some experiments to run. Then you come back to 1:18:11.400 --> 1:18:13.439 me and you say how those are working, and then 1:18:13.439 --> 1:18:15.639 we tweaked them, so you might say, I'm actually going 1:18:15.720 --> 1:18:18.240 on lots of first dates, but no second dates, and 1:18:18.240 --> 1:18:20.760 then we try to figure out what's preventing you from that, 1:18:20.880 --> 1:18:23.479 and then you can use the six sessions whenever you 1:18:23.520 --> 1:18:26.240 want over a year, and what you really try to 1:18:26.280 --> 1:18:30.160 do is run, you know, try as many things as 1:18:30.160 --> 1:18:32.120 you can, and then come back to me and we 1:18:32.120 --> 1:18:34.400 we tweaked the plan. And so it's not like therapy 1:18:34.439 --> 1:18:36.360 where we're meeting once a week and you may not 1:18:36.439 --> 1:18:38.960 have anything in your mind. And sometimes the sessions are 1:18:38.960 --> 1:18:41.439 great and sometimes they're not. Each session is supposed to 1:18:41.479 --> 1:18:44.200 be very juicy and you have a lot to talk 1:18:44.240 --> 1:18:48.680 about with me, and how long is this session? Okay, 1:18:48.800 --> 1:18:52.080 so I'm in, I've signed up, I've bought six things. 1:18:52.120 --> 1:18:54.559 You say, you send me up. You send me a 1:18:54.600 --> 1:18:58.240 package which is to go a little deeper. What you're 1:18:58.240 --> 1:19:01.120 sending to me and what that experience is. Oh, I 1:19:01.200 --> 1:19:03.559 just mean I sell a package of sex. No no, no, 1:19:03.560 --> 1:19:08.120 no no, I maybe loose language on my part. You 1:19:08.320 --> 1:19:13.320 send self tests and questionnaires. Didn't I get that? Tell 1:19:13.360 --> 1:19:15.719 me about that, That's what I'm sure. Yeah, So before 1:19:15.760 --> 1:19:17.840 we meet, there's a few things that you do. So 1:19:17.960 --> 1:19:21.679 one thing is you journal about, um, what's your greatest 1:19:21.680 --> 1:19:24.400 wish for yourself in dating and relationships. So, for example, 1:19:24.479 --> 1:19:27.000 earlier in our conversation, we talked about your friend who's 1:19:27.040 --> 1:19:29.280 in his forties dating people who you don't think are 1:19:29.320 --> 1:19:31.960 the right fit and you're not sure what he really wants. 1:19:32.040 --> 1:19:34.240 And so that's an opportunity for me to dig deep 1:19:34.240 --> 1:19:37.439 with someone and say, what are you really looking for? 1:19:38.360 --> 1:19:42.559 The next question is something around their greatest fears in dating. 1:19:42.640 --> 1:19:44.400 So maybe this is a chance for them to tell 1:19:44.400 --> 1:19:46.920 me they feel like they're not lovable, or they feel 1:19:46.960 --> 1:19:50.280 like because their parents were divorced, they don't have a 1:19:50.320 --> 1:19:53.360 relationship role model and they don't know what healthy relationships 1:19:53.360 --> 1:19:55.160 look like. That's a chance for me to really get 1:19:55.240 --> 1:19:58.639 to know what's holding them back. And then I also 1:19:58.720 --> 1:20:02.040 do this assignment where they asked their friends and family, 1:20:02.200 --> 1:20:05.960 why do you think I'm single. And this works for 1:20:06.000 --> 1:20:09.360 a few reasons. One is I talk a lot in 1:20:09.400 --> 1:20:12.839 my book about dating blind spots, these patterns of behavior 1:20:13.560 --> 1:20:17.120 or ways of thinking that hold people back from finding love, 1:20:17.200 --> 1:20:19.559 but that they can't identify on their own. And that's 1:20:19.560 --> 1:20:21.800 the thing. If it was so obvious, people could do 1:20:21.800 --> 1:20:24.759 it on their own. They could say, I know my issue, 1:20:25.280 --> 1:20:28.000 I'm too picky. I just have to be less picky. 1:20:28.040 --> 1:20:31.080 But that doesn't magically work. A lot of times we 1:20:31.200 --> 1:20:33.760 can't see the truth of our own actions. And so 1:20:33.840 --> 1:20:37.000 in sending this question to their friends and family, they 1:20:37.040 --> 1:20:39.519 get a bunch of responses back. They can start to 1:20:39.560 --> 1:20:42.599 see patterns. I can start to see patterns. The second 1:20:42.600 --> 1:20:46.040 reason it works well is because it's leaning into that 1:20:46.120 --> 1:20:49.040 identity piece. You're saying to your friends and family, this 1:20:49.120 --> 1:20:51.280 is something that I'm tackling right now. This is something 1:20:51.320 --> 1:20:53.200 that I'm really working on and working with this woman 1:20:53.280 --> 1:20:57.160 Logan and um investing in this and in adopting that 1:20:57.280 --> 1:21:00.439 public persona as a data and someone who's working on it, 1:21:00.560 --> 1:21:03.600 people take you more seriously, and you take yourself more seriously. 1:21:04.520 --> 1:21:08.120 So I do all this prep work, I send it 1:21:08.160 --> 1:21:11.400 to you. What happens in my first hour. Yeah, in 1:21:11.439 --> 1:21:13.760 our first session, we talked through your answers, and so 1:21:13.800 --> 1:21:15.640 you're telling me what you really want, You're telling me 1:21:15.680 --> 1:21:18.080 your fears, and then you're sharing with me the answers 1:21:18.080 --> 1:21:21.320 to that question. And so we're talking about all right, 1:21:21.439 --> 1:21:23.880 it sounds like what your friends and family think is 1:21:23.920 --> 1:21:26.599 that you never got over your boyfriend from ten years 1:21:26.600 --> 1:21:30.719 ago and that you compare everyone to him. Or I'll say, 1:21:30.800 --> 1:21:32.559 you know, your friends seem to think one thing and 1:21:32.560 --> 1:21:34.960 your family seems to think another. Who do you think 1:21:35.080 --> 1:21:37.080 is correct? And so some of it is just understanding 1:21:37.120 --> 1:21:39.960 where they are. Then we do that thing where we 1:21:40.080 --> 1:21:43.879 talk about their relationship history, and we really go into 1:21:45.840 --> 1:21:49.200 what are their stories, what's their narrative? Who are they? 1:21:49.280 --> 1:21:53.160 Do they believe that love is waiting for them? Do 1:21:53.280 --> 1:21:56.599 they believe that there's a perfect person out there for them? 1:21:57.000 --> 1:21:59.880 And this is where I start to use some path 1:22:00.000 --> 1:22:03.959 and recognition, and so I have this framework I've developed 1:22:04.000 --> 1:22:07.760 called the three dating tendencies, which is three of the 1:22:07.800 --> 1:22:10.760 most common types of daters that I've seen in my 1:22:10.840 --> 1:22:14.920 coaching practice. And so what they all have in common 1:22:15.040 --> 1:22:20.880 is unrealistic expectations. The first type is the romanticizer, and 1:22:20.920 --> 1:22:25.320 they have unrealistic expectations of relationships. This is the person 1:22:25.360 --> 1:22:28.599 who thinks there's a soul mate, there's one person out 1:22:28.640 --> 1:22:31.160 there for me. They're gonna come in this package that 1:22:31.240 --> 1:22:36.040 I recognize, and dating should be effortless and if it 1:22:36.080 --> 1:22:39.000 ever gets hard, then this must just not be the 1:22:39.120 --> 1:22:41.599 right person for me. And these are people who want 1:22:41.640 --> 1:22:44.639 to have the romantic meat cute, and they're very focused 1:22:44.640 --> 1:22:47.840 on this person's physical appearance and how the relationship is 1:22:47.840 --> 1:22:50.200 going to be easy. And the work I do with 1:22:50.240 --> 1:22:52.640 those people is saying to them, hey, this is not 1:22:52.760 --> 1:22:57.320 about Disney movies, This is not about rom comms. What 1:22:57.560 --> 1:23:01.840 really matters and love is working problems, doing small things, 1:23:01.920 --> 1:23:06.320 often making the most of the relationship, building together. It's 1:23:06.360 --> 1:23:09.639 not about how you met, right if you date somebody 1:23:09.640 --> 1:23:13.040 for fifty years, the day you met is point zero 1:23:13.160 --> 1:23:16.519 zero five of your whole relationship, and kind of taking 1:23:16.560 --> 1:23:20.960 them away from the romcom paradigm and really moving them 1:23:21.000 --> 1:23:25.200 towards a realistic view of love and dating. The second 1:23:25.200 --> 1:23:29.360 type is the maximizer, and they have unrealistic expectations of 1:23:29.360 --> 1:23:31.720 their partner. And this is a type I see a lot, 1:23:31.920 --> 1:23:35.000 especially in New York and San Francisco. And this is 1:23:35.040 --> 1:23:38.120 the person who says, I love doing research. Anytime I 1:23:38.120 --> 1:23:40.800 have a problem, I analyze it. I'm just gonna keep 1:23:40.920 --> 1:23:43.479 dating and keep swiping and keep doing more and more 1:23:43.560 --> 1:23:47.680 research because the perfect person is just one swipe away. 1:23:47.760 --> 1:23:50.519 And so they reject everyone because they feel like somebody 1:23:50.560 --> 1:23:53.040 out there has all the qualities that they're looking for. 1:23:53.360 --> 1:23:55.720 And they just get older and older and pickier and 1:23:55.720 --> 1:23:58.880 pickier and just rejecting everyone. And they don't understand that 1:23:59.080 --> 1:24:02.840 they're not perfect. No one is perfect, and eventually you 1:24:02.880 --> 1:24:05.760 have to choose someone and build a relationship. You don't 1:24:05.800 --> 1:24:09.320 just find the perfect person and that's the perfect relationship. 1:24:09.360 --> 1:24:11.400 And this is hard for people because they feel like 1:24:11.400 --> 1:24:14.040 I'm telling them to settle, but I'm not. I'm telling 1:24:14.080 --> 1:24:17.720 them to be realistic and to understand that they can 1:24:17.760 --> 1:24:20.360 build a relationship they want. And then the last one, 1:24:20.360 --> 1:24:23.040 which we talked about is the hesitator, and they have 1:24:23.200 --> 1:24:26.680 unrealistic expectations of themselves. They think that they're just not 1:24:26.840 --> 1:24:30.920 lovable yet, and so they're not even dating. They're waiting 1:24:30.960 --> 1:24:33.439 for something to happen, like losing weight or getting a 1:24:33.439 --> 1:24:36.160 more impressive job. And for them the work is just 1:24:36.200 --> 1:24:40.599 saying stop hesitating, start dating, put yourself out there. That's 1:24:40.600 --> 1:24:43.360 how you're going to get better at dating. Okay, so 1:24:43.400 --> 1:24:46.679 we cover all these ground in the first session. What's 1:24:46.720 --> 1:24:51.880 the assignment after the first session the assignment completely. It 1:24:51.960 --> 1:24:54.080 depends on the person. There's a lot of therapy, you know, 1:24:54.120 --> 1:24:57.120 called programmatic therapy, where I'm walking you through a certain 1:24:57.160 --> 1:24:59.960 thing every session, and I do that a little bit 1:25:00.000 --> 1:25:03.080 in terms of the first homework and asking you about relationships, 1:25:03.120 --> 1:25:06.040 but it just it could be a hundred different things 1:25:06.040 --> 1:25:08.880 for a hundred different people. And I really enjoy making 1:25:08.920 --> 1:25:12.040 up homework assignments on the spot. And so for somebody 1:25:12.120 --> 1:25:17.840 who has fear of rejection, maybe for them it's sending 1:25:17.880 --> 1:25:21.720 a lot of personalized comments and just putting themselves out 1:25:21.720 --> 1:25:23.960 there and kind of what we call rejection therapy. Just 1:25:24.040 --> 1:25:26.479 get used to getting rejected so that it doesn't bother 1:25:26.560 --> 1:25:31.280 you as much anymore. For somebody who it feels like 1:25:31.320 --> 1:25:33.519 they don't have anything to talk about on dates, maybe 1:25:33.520 --> 1:25:35.840 it's actually okay, how can you invest in the hobby, 1:25:35.960 --> 1:25:37.920 How can you go read some books, How can you 1:25:38.000 --> 1:25:41.320 feel more interesting so that on dates you can actually 1:25:41.360 --> 1:25:43.320 share some of those things more, and so it's really 1:25:43.360 --> 1:25:46.360 seeing what is the thing in this person's life that's 1:25:46.360 --> 1:25:48.960 holding them back from taking the next step, and how 1:25:48.960 --> 1:25:53.280 can we break that down and help them tackle it. Okay, 1:25:53.439 --> 1:25:57.799 I've paid, I've had my session, and do I start 1:25:57.960 --> 1:26:01.760 to go on dates after the first session. It's completely 1:26:01.800 --> 1:26:06.560 depends on the person. For some people, I say to them, Hey, um, 1:26:06.640 --> 1:26:08.920 we need to work on your profile, So send me 1:26:09.960 --> 1:26:12.720 sixty photos of yourself and I'm going to help you 1:26:12.760 --> 1:26:15.240 pick the top six photos and I'm going to help 1:26:15.280 --> 1:26:17.639 you rewrite your profile. So for some people they really 1:26:17.640 --> 1:26:20.800 need help with that. For other people, they already have 1:26:20.920 --> 1:26:23.400 a ton of dates and the issue is not starting 1:26:23.439 --> 1:26:25.920 to date, it's starting to pick different people or show 1:26:26.000 --> 1:26:28.720 up differently, and so there's so many different types of 1:26:28.800 --> 1:26:32.560 daters with so many different problems. That's really about understanding 1:26:32.680 --> 1:26:35.479 what is the thing that's holding that person back and 1:26:35.520 --> 1:26:38.760 then coming up with a homework assignment that's within their 1:26:39.120 --> 1:26:42.439 stretch zone but not within the danger zone. So what 1:26:42.600 --> 1:26:46.040 does work on a profile? Yeah, there's a ton of 1:26:46.080 --> 1:26:48.519 research that we've done in this at hinge. So one 1:26:48.560 --> 1:26:53.160 thing is thinking about your profile is storytelling who are you? 1:26:53.520 --> 1:26:55.960 What would it be like to date you. What are 1:26:56.000 --> 1:26:58.559 you looking for and how can you answer that in 1:26:58.600 --> 1:27:03.320 your profile? And so your potos should be accurate but flattering. 1:27:03.439 --> 1:27:05.559 So there's a picture of myself that I really like 1:27:05.680 --> 1:27:07.960 from two thousand nine, but I should not put that 1:27:08.000 --> 1:27:10.280 in my profile because that is not how I look right. 1:27:10.320 --> 1:27:12.200 That was a long time ago, So that is not 1:27:12.280 --> 1:27:15.280 being the accurate a flattering category. You want to have 1:27:15.360 --> 1:27:18.960 photos that clearly show what you look like, no filters, 1:27:18.960 --> 1:27:22.559 no sunglasses. You want to show yourself with some friends 1:27:22.560 --> 1:27:25.040 and family to show you have a social life. It's 1:27:25.040 --> 1:27:27.439 great to have pictures of you doing something that you love. 1:27:28.000 --> 1:27:30.760 You also want to respond to those hinge prompts very 1:27:30.800 --> 1:27:35.040 carefully and show um in some you know your hobbies. 1:27:35.080 --> 1:27:38.400 So you could say typical Sunday, Maybe you say, wake up, 1:27:39.080 --> 1:27:43.360 make myself fancy coffee, go for a walk with my dog, 1:27:44.040 --> 1:27:49.040 maybe go to a bookstore, um, have lunch with friends, 1:27:49.080 --> 1:27:53.439 and then spend the evening you know, watching movies. Something 1:27:53.479 --> 1:27:54.880 like that, Like give me a sense of what your 1:27:54.880 --> 1:27:56.840 life is like. Talk to me about what you're looking for. 1:27:56.960 --> 1:28:00.559 Say I'm looking for a long term adventure partner. I'm 1:28:00.600 --> 1:28:04.880 just looking for fun. I'm looking for someone to sail 1:28:04.920 --> 1:28:07.040 the world with whatever it is, And so people just 1:28:07.200 --> 1:28:10.000 rushed through making their profile, and it's actually a huge 1:28:10.040 --> 1:28:13.920 opportunity to really express who you are. And people I've 1:28:13.920 --> 1:28:16.360 worked with have gone from getting almost no matches to 1:28:16.400 --> 1:28:18.960 getting a lot of matches just by something like changing 1:28:18.960 --> 1:28:23.280 out their pictures. Okay, at some point I'm engaging in 1:28:23.439 --> 1:28:28.400 dates and I realize every person is different. But what 1:28:28.600 --> 1:28:31.320 might the coaching look like it Maybe someone who merely 1:28:31.400 --> 1:28:34.200 jumps into relationship, Maybe someone who meets for twenty minutes. 1:28:34.760 --> 1:28:37.200 You know, once I'm started in the field, what are 1:28:37.200 --> 1:28:40.799 the issues that arise. One of the issues is states 1:28:40.840 --> 1:28:44.800 that feel like job interviews. People show up and they say, 1:28:45.200 --> 1:28:47.240 where are you from, where did you go to school, 1:28:47.400 --> 1:28:49.599 what did you study? How many siblings do you have? 1:28:49.960 --> 1:28:52.600 What's your five year plan? And it's like an exchange 1:28:52.600 --> 1:28:55.200 of information, and then they say to me, oh, I 1:28:55.280 --> 1:28:57.960 just didn't feel the spark. And so I try to 1:28:58.040 --> 1:29:02.240 deep program people away from that and say, how would 1:29:02.240 --> 1:29:04.800 you want to converse with somebody? Maybe you want to 1:29:04.840 --> 1:29:07.599 talk about somebody at work who's driving you crazy and 1:29:07.640 --> 1:29:10.160 get their advice. Maybe you want to talk about the 1:29:10.200 --> 1:29:12.160 crazy phone call that you got on the weight of 1:29:12.240 --> 1:29:14.559 the date. How can you actually show up and have fun, 1:29:14.680 --> 1:29:18.720 have a connection, be playful, have some flirtatious energy, and 1:29:19.120 --> 1:29:22.360 moving people away from that interview date mindset is one 1:29:22.400 --> 1:29:25.360 of the biggest things that I do. Something you mentioned 1:29:25.360 --> 1:29:28.599 on social media which really cracked me up is going 1:29:28.640 --> 1:29:32.240 on dates with people who don't ask questions. Oh yeah, 1:29:32.720 --> 1:29:35.000 I'm glad you brought this up, because I mean, obviously, 1:29:35.040 --> 1:29:36.800 part of your job is that you ask questions for 1:29:36.840 --> 1:29:38.720 a living, and you're you're very good at it. But 1:29:39.240 --> 1:29:42.600 I get so many complaints about these people, and I 1:29:42.680 --> 1:29:46.400 started calling them z Q zero questions. And so what 1:29:46.520 --> 1:29:49.360 happens is somebody will say to me, I went on 1:29:49.360 --> 1:29:51.160 a date with this woman. I feel like I could 1:29:51.160 --> 1:29:53.920 write her biography. I know everything about her, and she 1:29:53.960 --> 1:29:56.679 didn't ask a single question about me. And it makes 1:29:56.680 --> 1:29:59.200 people feel like the other person is just so rude 1:29:59.320 --> 1:30:03.599 or not into did And so I did research where 1:30:03.640 --> 1:30:07.559 I asked my you know, fifty thousand newsletters subscribers, what 1:30:07.600 --> 1:30:09.320 do you do in this situation and what do you 1:30:09.320 --> 1:30:14.040 think it means? And some people said, I'm actually very awkward. 1:30:14.640 --> 1:30:17.800 I sometimes forget to ask questions. I don't mean to 1:30:18.560 --> 1:30:21.040 you know, I hope somebody will give me a second chance. 1:30:21.160 --> 1:30:23.880 This is really something I'm working on. So some people say, like, 1:30:24.080 --> 1:30:28.599 I'm actually just awkward. Other people say, this is a 1:30:28.600 --> 1:30:31.800 sign that this person isn't interested in me, and they're 1:30:31.800 --> 1:30:34.200 just interested themselves, and so I move on. But where 1:30:34.240 --> 1:30:37.760 I've wound up is just telling people here's how to 1:30:38.479 --> 1:30:41.240 let the other person know that you want to be 1:30:41.320 --> 1:30:44.400 asked questions. And you could say something like, wow, I've 1:30:44.439 --> 1:30:46.160 asked you so much. What do you want to know 1:30:46.200 --> 1:30:48.599 about me? Or what can I tell you about myself? 1:30:48.640 --> 1:30:51.920 And so sort of just quietly or or suddenly nudging 1:30:51.920 --> 1:30:54.280 them to ask you questions. You can also sort of 1:30:54.320 --> 1:30:56.599 poke fun at them. So, for example, a woman said 1:30:57.320 --> 1:30:59.680 that a guy complained about his sister in law for 1:30:59.720 --> 1:31:01.080 a now and a half, and so at the end 1:31:01.120 --> 1:31:03.320 of that she said, how do you feel about your 1:31:03.360 --> 1:31:07.439 sister in law? I can't tell. And you know, the 1:31:07.479 --> 1:31:10.920 best case, of course, is using humor to let someone 1:31:10.960 --> 1:31:13.280 know that they're breaking a social norm. But I think 1:31:13.280 --> 1:31:16.679 it's just fascinating how much this comes up, and it's 1:31:16.880 --> 1:31:19.479 everyone thinks, oh, it's just women don't ask men, or 1:31:19.520 --> 1:31:21.600 men don't ask women, But I get emails about this 1:31:21.640 --> 1:31:26.439 from everyone, and I think the takeaway is the best 1:31:26.479 --> 1:31:30.440 way to make someone think you're charming is asking good questions. 1:31:30.800 --> 1:31:34.280 It is much more important to be interested than interesting. 1:31:35.120 --> 1:31:37.080 The more that you can get somebody to open up 1:31:37.080 --> 1:31:39.840 and talk about themselves, the more they enjoy talking to 1:31:39.920 --> 1:31:45.800 you and learning how to ask interesting questions, Questions that 1:31:45.840 --> 1:31:48.439 help people explore who they are, that help them go deep. 1:31:48.920 --> 1:31:58.960 Is one of the best ways to get a second date. Okay, 1:31:59.000 --> 1:32:02.680 you have this, Well, it's a mathematical equation. They hit 1:32:02.760 --> 1:32:06.120 thirty seven percent, and then you date someone who's explain 1:32:06.200 --> 1:32:09.760 that yea. So this comes from a book called Algorithms 1:32:09.760 --> 1:32:14.280 to Live By and the concept is called the secretary problem. 1:32:14.360 --> 1:32:17.120 And basically what it is is, imagine you're hiring a 1:32:17.200 --> 1:32:21.440 secretary and admin whatever, and you have a hundred candidates. 1:32:21.720 --> 1:32:24.160 You have to go through each candidate one by one 1:32:24.320 --> 1:32:27.519 and say yes or no, so you can't go back 1:32:27.520 --> 1:32:30.240 and get somebody from earlier on. And so the mathematical 1:32:30.320 --> 1:32:33.160 question is at what point should you stop. If you 1:32:33.160 --> 1:32:35.679 wait until the end, maybe all the good people are gone. 1:32:36.240 --> 1:32:38.760 If you hire somebody too early, maybe you don't know 1:32:38.880 --> 1:32:42.680 who's out there. And So the mathematically correct answer is 1:32:42.720 --> 1:32:45.160 that you go through thirty seven percent of the candidates, 1:32:45.200 --> 1:32:47.519 and you've met thirty seven of them, and you say 1:32:47.560 --> 1:32:50.559 who was the single best person from that group, and 1:32:50.640 --> 1:32:53.840 that person is now your benchmark. The next time that 1:32:53.880 --> 1:32:57.679 you interview somebody who's better than that benchmark, you hire 1:32:57.720 --> 1:33:01.000 them on the spot. And so the point is that 1:33:01.040 --> 1:33:03.560 you get a sense of who's out there, make a benchmark, 1:33:03.920 --> 1:33:08.080 and then select the next person. With dating, what they 1:33:08.120 --> 1:33:10.200 do in this book, algorithms live by as they say, 1:33:10.240 --> 1:33:12.840 imagine you're going to date from eighteen to forty. We 1:33:12.880 --> 1:33:14.519 don't know how many people you're gonna date, but we 1:33:14.560 --> 1:33:17.200 can say maybe you'll date for those ages. So what 1:33:17.360 --> 1:33:20.320 is thirty seven percent of the way through? It's twenty 1:33:20.400 --> 1:33:23.160 six point one years old. So by the time you're 1:33:23.200 --> 1:33:25.920 twenty six, you say, who is my single best person 1:33:25.920 --> 1:33:29.519 I've dated so far? That's now my benchmark. The next 1:33:29.520 --> 1:33:31.960 time I find someone who I like as much or 1:33:31.960 --> 1:33:35.360 more than them, I'm going to commit to that person. 1:33:36.240 --> 1:33:39.919 And the reason why I love to use this example 1:33:40.160 --> 1:33:43.559 is because for those maximizers, the people who are always 1:33:44.320 --> 1:33:46.800 thinking the next best person is out there, and I 1:33:46.880 --> 1:33:49.640 just have to keep swiping. It helps them understand you 1:33:49.800 --> 1:33:52.479 likely have already dated somebody who would make a great partner, 1:33:52.920 --> 1:33:55.599 and it's about choosing somebody and committing to them. It's 1:33:55.600 --> 1:34:01.000 not about this infinite search and infinite research. So what's 1:34:01.000 --> 1:34:04.840 your hit to ship ratio? What does that mean? That 1:34:04.840 --> 1:34:08.879 means your success ratio? I realize it depends on the clients. 1:34:09.360 --> 1:34:12.160 Hundred people come in, how many have a long term 1:34:12.200 --> 1:34:16.760 relationship after working with you? I honestly don't have a 1:34:16.800 --> 1:34:21.759 great answer for that, because for some people, what success 1:34:21.760 --> 1:34:24.000 looks like for them is that they haven't dated in 1:34:24.200 --> 1:34:26.759 ten years and they start dating again. And so maybe 1:34:26.760 --> 1:34:29.080 they don't find a partner in the time we're working together, 1:34:29.120 --> 1:34:32.639 but they overcame their fear of dating. For some people, 1:34:33.000 --> 1:34:35.880 they might meet the person that they marry. For some 1:34:35.920 --> 1:34:40.479 people's success is that they exited toxic relationship or run 1:34:40.479 --> 1:34:42.600 in the other direction when they see red flags. And 1:34:42.600 --> 1:34:45.640 so I would say all of my clients experience a 1:34:45.640 --> 1:34:49.080 lot of success in overcoming their behavior. That doesn't always 1:34:49.080 --> 1:34:51.680 mean that they find a partner right away. Okay, so 1:34:51.720 --> 1:34:56.160 tell me about the group D sessions. How often are 1:34:56.200 --> 1:34:57.760 they in a year, and how many people in a 1:34:57.800 --> 1:35:00.720 group yeah, So Kimberly and I are are figuring this out. 1:35:00.800 --> 1:35:03.040 We've done a bunch of experiments where we've had classes 1:35:03.040 --> 1:35:06.439 of thirties, sixty, hundred and twenty and we're basically like, 1:35:06.560 --> 1:35:08.559 how big is too big? When is this going to break? 1:35:08.600 --> 1:35:10.479 And right now it hasn't broken. And in fact, I 1:35:10.520 --> 1:35:12.840 think our class with a hundred and twenty was maybe 1:35:12.880 --> 1:35:15.960 the most fun because you were very likely to have 1:35:16.000 --> 1:35:19.080 somebody else in that class who was experiencing the quirky 1:35:19.160 --> 1:35:23.120 dating problem that you were experiencing. Um the Neck class 1:35:23.160 --> 1:35:25.240 is probably going to be in September and it's either 1:35:25.280 --> 1:35:28.040 going to run for between three to six weeks. And 1:35:28.080 --> 1:35:30.840 how it works is you meet once a week with 1:35:30.880 --> 1:35:35.440 me and I teach a live workshop with slides and exercises, 1:35:35.479 --> 1:35:37.720 and it's very high energy. It's kind of trying to 1:35:37.760 --> 1:35:40.520 be like you've ever been to a Tony Robbins experience 1:35:40.520 --> 1:35:43.200 where you're like, oh, like every few minutes something is changing. 1:35:43.240 --> 1:35:46.320 It's it's very engaging, it's not like your average zoom meeting. 1:35:46.920 --> 1:35:50.160 And then you also have homework that you're doing in 1:35:50.200 --> 1:35:53.479 between classes, you're getting feedback on it. You're also meeting 1:35:53.479 --> 1:35:56.480 in small groups with people who might share some qualities 1:35:56.520 --> 1:35:59.880 with you, and then there is a slack community, so 1:36:00.040 --> 1:36:03.320 people are constantly asking each other questions, getting feedback, getting 1:36:03.400 --> 1:36:07.840 first aid ideas, getting advice on their profiles. And so 1:36:07.920 --> 1:36:10.840 it's like whether the last one was six weeks, and 1:36:10.880 --> 1:36:13.559 so for this six week period, you're basically all in 1:36:13.600 --> 1:36:16.519 on dating. You're going through this boot camp, You're creating 1:36:16.520 --> 1:36:20.360 this identity around dating, and people really seem to get 1:36:20.479 --> 1:36:25.639 very transformative results from that. You know, I remember listening 1:36:25.680 --> 1:36:29.760 to talk radio and learning certain things and going to 1:36:29.840 --> 1:36:34.120 my shrink and saying, yeah, in reality, you're just the opposite. 1:36:34.760 --> 1:36:37.599 You know. It's like if you read my number one bitches, 1:36:37.680 --> 1:36:41.880 these billionaires and other very successful people giving advice that 1:36:42.040 --> 1:36:45.599 worked for them, and unless you are literally them, it's 1:36:45.680 --> 1:36:48.080 never going to work for you. Never mind, Look, you 1:36:48.160 --> 1:36:51.800 have to find out what your strengths are. So irrelevantive 1:36:51.840 --> 1:36:56.240 cost I find if it's one on one, even though 1:36:56.560 --> 1:37:00.639 as I say, maybe much more expensive, my uh odds 1:37:00.760 --> 1:37:05.880 of positive results are much higher. Yeah, you know, I 1:37:05.880 --> 1:37:07.840 I thought that for a long time too, And I 1:37:07.880 --> 1:37:10.200 think many people come to my website and are like 1:37:10.280 --> 1:37:12.280 a group class. I'm not interested in that. This is 1:37:12.320 --> 1:37:14.280 really private. I don't want to talk about it publicly. 1:37:14.320 --> 1:37:16.960 I want the one on one help. But I've had 1:37:17.040 --> 1:37:19.320 clients that worked with me one on one and then 1:37:19.360 --> 1:37:21.760 took the class, and when they took the class, I 1:37:21.760 --> 1:37:26.479 feel like they just started moving faster. And so I've 1:37:26.520 --> 1:37:30.639 just seen that learning in a group setting is different. 1:37:30.680 --> 1:37:33.920 If you meet with me once a month, you have 1:37:33.960 --> 1:37:36.439 a homework assignment, you have insights, but it's up to 1:37:36.520 --> 1:37:38.920 you whether or not to change. When you are part 1:37:38.920 --> 1:37:42.559 of a community, it's so powerful. There's social norms. Everyone 1:37:42.680 --> 1:37:45.800 is doing this. Everyone is going on dates on Thursday nights. 1:37:45.840 --> 1:37:49.080 Everyone's talking about those dates on Friday. Everybody's sharing this. 1:37:49.280 --> 1:37:53.599 I I am a really huge proponent of the power 1:37:53.680 --> 1:37:56.760 of community and the power of social norms. And sometimes 1:37:56.920 --> 1:38:00.120 when you want to change your behavior, information on it 1:38:00.160 --> 1:38:02.599 gets you so far right. There's this concept called the 1:38:02.640 --> 1:38:05.879 information action gap. I can tell you how many calories 1:38:05.920 --> 1:38:08.679 are in a donut, but if you're walking into Dunkin Donuts, 1:38:08.720 --> 1:38:11.000 you don't care. You're there to buy a donut. And 1:38:11.080 --> 1:38:16.040 so information is helpful, but you also need exercises, environment 1:38:16.160 --> 1:38:18.960 activities to actually get you to change your behavior. And 1:38:19.000 --> 1:38:22.240 the class seems to be that immersive experience that causes 1:38:22.280 --> 1:38:24.519 people to not just know the right thing to do, 1:38:24.640 --> 1:38:29.040 but actually do it. Okay, let's assume I'm in a relationship. 1:38:29.120 --> 1:38:32.400 In your book, you talk about a number of things, 1:38:32.479 --> 1:38:35.960 one having a weekly check in, so my I would 1:38:36.000 --> 1:38:38.880 like you to talk about that, and also how you 1:38:39.000 --> 1:38:43.000 evaluate that you should get married, and also how you 1:38:43.000 --> 1:38:47.800 should evaluate that you should get divorced. Yeah. So a 1:38:47.880 --> 1:38:50.760 lot of my thinking about relationships comes from John and 1:38:50.840 --> 1:38:54.160 Julie Gottman. Are you familiar with them the Goatman Institute 1:38:54.439 --> 1:38:57.800 only from your book? Okay, Yeah, So anyway, I'm I 1:38:57.840 --> 1:39:01.240 think their research is amazing. I feel like it's so helpful. 1:39:01.640 --> 1:39:03.840 And one of the biggest things that they talk about 1:39:04.080 --> 1:39:07.000 is just the fact that you need to constantly be 1:39:07.080 --> 1:39:10.439 investing in your relationship. They have this expression small things 1:39:10.520 --> 1:39:12.479 often and so people think, oh, I can just put 1:39:12.520 --> 1:39:15.200 my relationship into maintenance mode and once a year going 1:39:15.280 --> 1:39:18.720 a romantic vacation and relight the pilot light. But that's 1:39:18.720 --> 1:39:22.080 actually not what works. What we find is that relationships 1:39:22.120 --> 1:39:26.560 where people are unhappy or they break up, our relationships 1:39:26.600 --> 1:39:31.360 where you basically stop investing in them. And so part 1:39:31.400 --> 1:39:33.360 of the weekly check in ritual, which can be a 1:39:33.400 --> 1:39:36.000 series of questions that you ask your partner, let's say 1:39:36.000 --> 1:39:40.080 every Sunday. They help you tackle problems before they start. 1:39:40.600 --> 1:39:43.479 I just read a stat that said I found a 1:39:43.479 --> 1:39:45.040 little hard to believe, but it said, you know, couples 1:39:45.080 --> 1:39:47.120 weights seven years before they go to a couple of therapy. 1:39:47.200 --> 1:39:49.360 Couples have problems and problems and problems, and it's to 1:39:49.400 --> 1:39:51.280 the point where they're about to break up that they 1:39:51.320 --> 1:39:54.519 finally go. And maybe in some cases it's too late, 1:39:54.840 --> 1:39:57.000 but if they had gone earlier, they could have said, Yeah, 1:39:57.040 --> 1:40:00.000 I have a lot of resentment around this, like I, um, 1:40:00.040 --> 1:40:02.080 I feel like you don't split the child care evenly 1:40:02.120 --> 1:40:04.320 with me, or I resent the way that you spend 1:40:04.320 --> 1:40:06.800 money and don't save. And so part of the check 1:40:06.840 --> 1:40:10.000 in ritual is tackling problems before they start by saying, 1:40:10.479 --> 1:40:12.760 how am I showing up for you? What can I 1:40:12.800 --> 1:40:15.040 do differently? What do you need from me? And so 1:40:15.080 --> 1:40:19.439 it's really a mindset of relationships or something to constantly 1:40:19.479 --> 1:40:22.840 be working on, not something that you once a year, 1:40:23.000 --> 1:40:27.080 you know, go on a sexy anniversary date, okay, and 1:40:27.160 --> 1:40:31.120 evaluating whether to get married or divorce. Yeah, so I 1:40:31.160 --> 1:40:33.439 have a surprising number. I'm doing this a little bit 1:40:33.520 --> 1:40:36.080 less now, but for several years I would have these 1:40:36.160 --> 1:40:39.840 ninety minute decision making conversations with people, and so it 1:40:39.960 --> 1:40:42.479 was a one time session and they basically would give 1:40:42.520 --> 1:40:44.160 me the context. I would ask some a bunch of 1:40:44.240 --> 1:40:46.000 questions and then we try to figure out what they 1:40:46.000 --> 1:40:48.559 should do next. And some of these were should I 1:40:48.600 --> 1:40:50.840 get married? And some of these were should we break up? 1:40:51.560 --> 1:40:55.840 For the should we break up? Once, I asked them 1:40:55.840 --> 1:40:58.519 a series of questions that helped me understand is the 1:40:58.600 --> 1:41:01.960 problem something that has been there for a while, or 1:41:02.000 --> 1:41:04.679 is there some external factors? So maybe that person lost 1:41:04.720 --> 1:41:06.920 their jobs, so they're feeling down on themselves, so they 1:41:06.960 --> 1:41:09.280 lost their sex drive. Is that going to go away 1:41:09.320 --> 1:41:14.479 at any point? Sometimes it's a situation where you know 1:41:14.560 --> 1:41:17.200 they haven't been investing in the relationship and they both 1:41:17.200 --> 1:41:18.800 need to show up for each other more and maybe 1:41:18.800 --> 1:41:21.920 there's an opportunity there. Um. I have this question that 1:41:21.960 --> 1:41:25.040 I asked people called the wardrobe test, where I say 1:41:25.040 --> 1:41:27.759 to them, if your partner were a piece of clothing 1:41:28.640 --> 1:41:32.559 something in your closet, what would that piece of clothing be. 1:41:33.120 --> 1:41:37.120 Give me your gut reaction? And so sometimes people say, 1:41:37.520 --> 1:41:40.280 my girlfriend is my favorite pair of pants. I would 1:41:40.280 --> 1:41:42.160 never have bought them, but I love them and I 1:41:42.200 --> 1:41:45.640 feel really cool and alternative when I wear them. And 1:41:45.720 --> 1:41:48.599 sometimes they'll say things like my boyfriend is a scrubby 1:41:48.640 --> 1:41:51.400 sweatshirt that I would wear to the gym, but I 1:41:51.439 --> 1:41:54.240 hope nobody sees me in. And even though the question 1:41:54.320 --> 1:41:56.599 is a little silly, that's actually the point. It's almost 1:41:56.600 --> 1:41:58.920 like this roor shock test where you just say what 1:41:59.040 --> 1:42:01.719 comes to mind, and that helps me understand where you are. 1:42:02.160 --> 1:42:04.439 And so we could talk for three hours about the 1:42:04.439 --> 1:42:06.600 pros and cons of your relationship, but it might not 1:42:06.680 --> 1:42:09.160 be until that moment where you really say, wow, I've 1:42:09.160 --> 1:42:11.599 outgrown this, or well, if I could just get out 1:42:11.600 --> 1:42:13.639 of this without hurting them, I would do it tomorrow. 1:42:14.160 --> 1:42:17.120 And so I really help people explore what's going on, 1:42:17.479 --> 1:42:20.080 is it permanent or impermanent, and how do they really 1:42:20.160 --> 1:42:23.639 feel in terms of should we get married? Sometimes people 1:42:23.680 --> 1:42:26.560 get married and they haven't even talked about the hard problems. 1:42:26.600 --> 1:42:30.639 They haven't talked about what you know, what are our 1:42:30.720 --> 1:42:34.160 goals around finances, what happens if one of us gets sick? 1:42:34.320 --> 1:42:36.120 Where do we want to live long term? And it's 1:42:36.120 --> 1:42:38.360 like you're so in love and you're feeling so connected, 1:42:38.400 --> 1:42:40.880 you just assume, Oh, I'm sure Bob feels the same 1:42:40.880 --> 1:42:42.880 way I feel about this. Because we love each other 1:42:42.920 --> 1:42:45.599 so much, we must agree. And so sometimes it's about 1:42:45.640 --> 1:42:48.400 having those hard conversations first. And I have a series 1:42:48.400 --> 1:42:50.400 of questions in my book that people can ask each 1:42:50.439 --> 1:42:54.439 other things like, um, you know, what are our values 1:42:54.479 --> 1:42:57.839 around this? What was the history and your family around fighting, 1:42:57.920 --> 1:43:00.320 What was history and your family around money? Just having 1:43:00.320 --> 1:43:03.920 those hard, practical conversations to make sure that you're on 1:43:03.960 --> 1:43:08.000 the same page. Also making sure that this person has 1:43:08.040 --> 1:43:12.479 the same views that you have on monogamy, fidelity, having 1:43:12.560 --> 1:43:14.880 a family. And it seems so obvious. It's like, who 1:43:14.960 --> 1:43:17.200 doesn't get married without talking about that? But the answer 1:43:17.320 --> 1:43:21.439 is many people. And it's really important to have those 1:43:21.439 --> 1:43:25.000 conversations before you are committed, and I would say especially 1:43:25.040 --> 1:43:27.280 before you have kids, because at that point you're entangled 1:43:27.280 --> 1:43:30.880 with that person for the rest of your life. Okay, 1:43:31.000 --> 1:43:35.200 so prior to graduating from college, you talked about your 1:43:35.360 --> 1:43:37.960 aim connection with this person. In high school, what was 1:43:38.000 --> 1:43:43.880 your dating experience, Yeah, I mean I definitely dated a lot. 1:43:44.040 --> 1:43:45.920 I feel like I was just one of those people 1:43:45.960 --> 1:43:48.040 that found it really fun to connect with people. I 1:43:48.240 --> 1:43:51.800 dated people that were nerds. I dated people that were athletes. 1:43:51.880 --> 1:43:54.200 I dated people that I met online, I dated people 1:43:54.240 --> 1:43:57.599 I met at work. I feel like I I feel 1:43:57.680 --> 1:44:01.200 lucky that I've had these different experiences because it makes 1:44:01.200 --> 1:44:03.080 me feel like I know that my husband is a 1:44:03.120 --> 1:44:06.719 great match for me, because I've dated all these different 1:44:06.760 --> 1:44:09.519 permutations of humans, and I'm like, well, I couldn't have 1:44:09.560 --> 1:44:12.240 predicted it, but this is the one who really makes 1:44:12.280 --> 1:44:16.639 me happy and keeps things interesting. You went to Harvard. 1:44:16.720 --> 1:44:20.920 What was that experience? Like? I loved Harvard. It was 1:44:20.960 --> 1:44:22.640 so fun. I think in some ways it is the 1:44:22.680 --> 1:44:25.080 happiest four years of my life. I mean, it's just 1:44:25.120 --> 1:44:27.720 such a good fit for my personality. You live with 1:44:27.760 --> 1:44:31.599 your best friends, you go to classes, you're constantly learning 1:44:32.200 --> 1:44:35.439 your writing, and somebody's job is to read your writing 1:44:35.439 --> 1:44:39.280 and give feedback on it. I thought it was really fun. 1:44:39.360 --> 1:44:41.760 You know, not everybody at Harvard likes to party, but 1:44:41.800 --> 1:44:45.120 if you're in the group that does, people are excited 1:44:45.160 --> 1:44:47.639 to meet you. And it was just really, really fun. 1:44:47.640 --> 1:44:50.559 It felt so lucky to get to go there. I 1:44:50.600 --> 1:44:53.080 think it makes you feel like the first eighteen years 1:44:53.120 --> 1:44:55.920 of your life, we're building towards something. For the four 1:44:56.000 --> 1:44:57.920 years I was there, I didn't worry that much about 1:44:57.920 --> 1:44:59.880 the future because I was just like, I am a 1:45:00.000 --> 1:45:03.240 exactly where I should be right now, and so I 1:45:03.320 --> 1:45:05.840 really loved the experience. Now, when you go to an 1:45:05.840 --> 1:45:09.360 elite institution, a lot of it is what you learn 1:45:09.520 --> 1:45:13.360 from the people and the relationships you make. Have those 1:45:13.439 --> 1:45:20.559 relationships paid dividends subsequent to graduation. Absolutely, yeah. I feel 1:45:20.640 --> 1:45:23.759 like I absolutely invested in relationships while I was there, 1:45:23.800 --> 1:45:27.000 in part just because I'm super social and I loved, 1:45:27.320 --> 1:45:29.280 you know, having lunch in the dining hall with one 1:45:29.320 --> 1:45:31.519 person and dinner in the dining hall with somebody else. 1:45:31.600 --> 1:45:35.400 But years later, those people are now running media companies 1:45:35.439 --> 1:45:40.320 and working as publicists and book agents and developing TV 1:45:40.400 --> 1:45:44.479 shows and you know, working in the White House. And 1:45:44.520 --> 1:45:46.200 so I feel like a lot of people I know, 1:45:46.280 --> 1:45:49.639 even if they were tangential connections, have super interesting jobs. 1:45:50.160 --> 1:45:53.120 And I have had moments, whether it was you know, 1:45:53.160 --> 1:45:56.960 seeking out healthcare for my husband or you know, just 1:45:57.120 --> 1:45:59.880 visiting another country where I feel really lucky to have 1:46:00.040 --> 1:46:02.200 onto school with a bunch of interesting people who are 1:46:02.200 --> 1:46:06.799 now doing especially interesting stuff. So you graduate from college, 1:46:07.720 --> 1:46:10.639 what are the moves? How do you end up here? Yeah? 1:46:10.680 --> 1:46:13.880 I had this vision in my mind that I wanted 1:46:13.920 --> 1:46:16.160 to live in San Francisco. I had never lived there, 1:46:16.200 --> 1:46:18.760 but I really loved learning about the sixties. One of 1:46:18.800 --> 1:46:22.559 my favorite classes in college was about youth culture in 1:46:22.560 --> 1:46:25.160 the nineties sixties, and of course San Francisco was a 1:46:25.200 --> 1:46:30.880 big player. And so I did a summer internship in 1:46:30.920 --> 1:46:34.160 San Francisco, and then I only applied to jobs in 1:46:34.200 --> 1:46:37.040 San Francisco and I ended up working at Google right 1:46:37.080 --> 1:46:41.320 out of college. And what was that like? Yeah? It 1:46:41.400 --> 1:46:45.760 was crazy. I had this very surprising first job out 1:46:45.760 --> 1:46:49.600 of college. I ran the porn Pod, which was a 1:46:50.160 --> 1:46:55.599 team and we managed the Google advertising, so the Google 1:46:55.640 --> 1:47:03.120 ads for sex toy operators and porn sites, and um, yeah, 1:47:03.120 --> 1:47:05.439 it was just really interesting. I definitely don't think my 1:47:05.520 --> 1:47:07.880 parents expected that. Over Thanksgiving, I would tell them that 1:47:07.920 --> 1:47:12.560 I was putting my Harvard diploma to use helping porn advertisers. 1:47:13.439 --> 1:47:17.080 And what was your Google history from there? Yeah, so 1:47:17.280 --> 1:47:19.200 you know, I did that job, but it definitely didn't 1:47:19.240 --> 1:47:22.360 have a ton of upward trajectory. Google is not investing 1:47:22.400 --> 1:47:25.080 in porn, and in fact, I think that team doesn't 1:47:25.080 --> 1:47:27.000 even exist anymore, and the rules have gotten a lot 1:47:27.040 --> 1:47:31.160 stricter since then. And so I eventually moved into this 1:47:31.240 --> 1:47:37.360 amazing team called the Irrational Lab, And basically I had 1:47:37.400 --> 1:47:42.120 an academic counterpart named Dan R. Yelie, who I had 1:47:42.160 --> 1:47:44.160 been a big fan of before I went to Google. 1:47:44.200 --> 1:47:47.760 He wrote this amazing book called Predictably Irrational. And Dan 1:47:48.200 --> 1:47:50.800 is a professor at Duke and he's one of the 1:47:50.840 --> 1:47:54.360 most interesting creative thinkers that I've ever met. He really 1:47:54.400 --> 1:47:58.160 just lives life very experimentally, where he's thinking, how can 1:47:58.200 --> 1:48:00.519 I help as many people as possible, how can I 1:48:00.560 --> 1:48:03.599 teach my kids how to be great humans? How can 1:48:03.680 --> 1:48:06.679 I run a lab that does interesting experiments? And so 1:48:06.960 --> 1:48:10.200 he was working part time at Google and we worked 1:48:10.200 --> 1:48:13.160 in this lab where we basically applied these very academic 1:48:13.240 --> 1:48:17.599 lessons of psychology and decision making into Google. Right, so, 1:48:17.640 --> 1:48:20.519 how do you get employees to go on more walks 1:48:20.560 --> 1:48:22.880 instead of just sitting in a meeting? How can you 1:48:22.920 --> 1:48:26.639 get somebody to log in and improve their ad Words accounts? 1:48:26.680 --> 1:48:30.000 And so it was this amazing opportunity to basically work 1:48:30.000 --> 1:48:32.439 in a lab like grad school, but instead of being 1:48:32.439 --> 1:48:35.040 in grad school, and getting into debt. I was working 1:48:35.080 --> 1:48:38.080 at Google and making a living, and so that was 1:48:38.120 --> 1:48:42.160 a life changing experience because I learned directly from Dan 1:48:42.200 --> 1:48:44.840 about this field of behavioral science, the study of how 1:48:44.880 --> 1:48:47.960 we make decisions. And now my work applies a lot 1:48:47.960 --> 1:48:50.759 of behavioral science to get people to change their behavior 1:48:51.800 --> 1:48:55.760 and continue from Google to today. Sure, so when I 1:48:55.800 --> 1:48:58.360 was at Google, I was single, I was online dating. 1:48:58.600 --> 1:49:01.160 I was swiping men hours a day, and I was like, 1:49:01.240 --> 1:49:04.880 this whole online dating thing is crazy. I feel lost, 1:49:05.160 --> 1:49:09.400 the people around me feel lost. Let me create a 1:49:09.520 --> 1:49:12.240 series where I get to interview experts on this. And 1:49:12.320 --> 1:49:15.719 so I started this talk interview series called Toxic Google 1:49:15.760 --> 1:49:19.439 Modern Romance, and I invited in some of the foremost experts. 1:49:19.439 --> 1:49:21.920 So I invited in John and Julie gott mem, I 1:49:21.960 --> 1:49:25.719 invited in Dan Savage, I invited in as Stare Parrel, 1:49:26.120 --> 1:49:28.280 And through this I made some of the connections that 1:49:28.439 --> 1:49:31.080 ended up being really helpful for me later on, but 1:49:31.240 --> 1:49:33.519 also just helped me see, wow, this is a thing. 1:49:34.120 --> 1:49:36.320 Thousands of people signed up for the email list in 1:49:36.360 --> 1:49:38.920 a few days, people were coming to the events. The 1:49:39.040 --> 1:49:41.800 YouTube videos were getting a ton of views, and that 1:49:41.920 --> 1:49:44.759 just made me feel like, all right, I'm onto something. 1:49:45.320 --> 1:49:47.960 People are really struggling and they need help, and I 1:49:48.000 --> 1:49:52.080 can help produce events, produce content whatever to help people 1:49:52.120 --> 1:49:55.240 answer these questions. And so I ended up leaving Google 1:49:55.240 --> 1:49:59.080 and going to Airbnb. And I liked working at Airbnb. 1:49:59.680 --> 1:50:03.800 It was really design focused, the company was has an 1:50:03.800 --> 1:50:06.960 amazing product that I love. The office was beautiful. I 1:50:07.000 --> 1:50:09.640 got to know all three of the founders. It was 1:50:09.680 --> 1:50:12.160 really fun to be there. But I just kept saying 1:50:12.200 --> 1:50:15.120 to myself, I have this passion for dating and relationships, 1:50:15.640 --> 1:50:19.439 and let me really see what I can do to 1:50:19.640 --> 1:50:24.040 invest in that. And I had this freak accident where 1:50:24.120 --> 1:50:27.240 I was walking in Golden Gate Park and a tree 1:50:27.320 --> 1:50:30.599 fell on me and it was a huge eucalyptus tree. 1:50:30.760 --> 1:50:35.080 Several people each year die from accidents involving trees falling 1:50:35.080 --> 1:50:38.600 on them in Golden Gate Park, and I was I 1:50:38.680 --> 1:50:40.960 missed work for a few weeks. It was really really scary, 1:50:41.520 --> 1:50:43.719 and I think through that I was just like, holy 1:50:43.720 --> 1:50:47.160 sh it, life is short. Nobody just comes up to 1:50:47.200 --> 1:50:48.840 you and says now is the time to quit your 1:50:48.920 --> 1:50:51.639 job and pursue your dreams. And I just felt like 1:50:52.080 --> 1:50:55.400 all right, like this is what I need to take 1:50:55.439 --> 1:50:57.280 a risk, and that was the year that I left 1:50:57.320 --> 1:51:01.360 Airbnb and started doing this stuff full time. So what 1:51:01.439 --> 1:51:04.479 was your injury and if you're fully recovered, Yeah, I 1:51:04.520 --> 1:51:07.360 mean I had some back issues. I have a kind 1:51:07.360 --> 1:51:09.920 of gnarly scar on my leg um. But it was 1:51:09.960 --> 1:51:12.439 one of those things where a police officer happened to 1:51:12.479 --> 1:51:15.519 observe it was like a few inches in any one 1:51:15.560 --> 1:51:18.160 direction and you would have been gone. And so the 1:51:18.240 --> 1:51:21.000 injuries were tough, but it was more the brush with 1:51:21.200 --> 1:51:23.880 death that I think really lit a fire under me 1:51:23.960 --> 1:51:26.720 and made me feel like you're never gonna wake up 1:51:26.840 --> 1:51:28.760 one day and be ready to do your own thing. 1:51:28.880 --> 1:51:32.200 It's always going to be scary, and it just felt 1:51:32.280 --> 1:51:35.920 like this opportunity to take a risk. And then every 1:51:36.000 --> 1:51:39.800 year on the anniversary of that accident, I have a 1:51:39.840 --> 1:51:43.680 party called an obituary party, where I make people come 1:51:43.720 --> 1:51:47.640 over and write their obituaries. And in doing that exercise, 1:51:47.720 --> 1:51:50.760 it really helped me understand what I wanted to be 1:51:50.840 --> 1:51:53.000 remembered for in the legacy I wanted to leave, and 1:51:53.040 --> 1:51:56.120 that also helped me quit my job. So do you 1:51:56.120 --> 1:51:59.120 go back to Golden Gate Park? I do, but I 1:51:59.120 --> 1:52:01.920 would say, you know, I live there's a eucalyptus tree 1:52:02.200 --> 1:52:05.080 near where I live, and I still feel a little 1:52:05.080 --> 1:52:09.759 bit of panic when when I'm under certain huge treets. Okay, 1:52:09.880 --> 1:52:13.880 your parents divorced when you were in high school. How 1:52:13.880 --> 1:52:18.360 did that affect your view of relationships? I think about 1:52:18.400 --> 1:52:22.280 that a lot. And what I believe is that when 1:52:22.280 --> 1:52:25.160 my parents got divorced, it was very surprising to me, 1:52:25.920 --> 1:52:30.439 and so I stopped taking relationships for granted and I 1:52:30.479 --> 1:52:33.800 felt like, Okay, this happily ever after thing, it's not 1:52:33.880 --> 1:52:36.400 a guarantee. Just because you get married doesn't mean that 1:52:36.439 --> 1:52:40.559 you stay married. And so it really encouraged me to 1:52:40.640 --> 1:52:44.719 take an anegal analytical look at relationships and say, what's 1:52:44.720 --> 1:52:47.240 happening in these good ones, what's happening in these bad ones? 1:52:47.320 --> 1:52:49.720 How do you choose the right person? How do you 1:52:49.920 --> 1:52:52.000 date enough people that you know who's out there, but 1:52:52.120 --> 1:52:55.040 not date so many people that you end up never 1:52:55.120 --> 1:52:57.679 finding somebody? And so I think it was just this 1:52:58.400 --> 1:53:01.439 kind of Spider Man getting bitten by the spider moment 1:53:01.600 --> 1:53:05.360 where it just really made me feel like this is 1:53:05.560 --> 1:53:09.880 something that I want to learn more about. It gave 1:53:09.920 --> 1:53:13.639 me this curiosity, and it gave me this almost humbling 1:53:13.720 --> 1:53:18.960 feeling of you can't take it for granted. Okay, So 1:53:19.280 --> 1:53:22.200 what would it take you to get divorced in my 1:53:22.280 --> 1:53:27.160 current relationship? Yeah, yeah, it's funny. My husband likes a 1:53:27.240 --> 1:53:29.839 joke that I'm not somebody he'd want to be divorced 1:53:29.880 --> 1:53:35.240 from because I don't know. I think he thinks I would. 1:53:35.320 --> 1:53:40.439 I would be tough in the in the divorce litigation moment. Okay, 1:53:40.479 --> 1:53:44.280 well you live in California's anyway, unless somebody, unless somebody 1:53:44.280 --> 1:53:47.040 brought assets to the marriage. But it, yeah, it is. 1:53:47.160 --> 1:53:50.240 It is funny that he thinks I'm scary in that regard. 1:53:50.800 --> 1:53:54.920 I mean, I've been with my husband for seven years. 1:53:55.000 --> 1:53:58.640 We've definitely had super strong moments and moments where we're disconnected. 1:53:59.120 --> 1:54:02.200 I think if I had to imagine a world where 1:54:02.200 --> 1:54:05.599 we got divorced, it would be because we don't invest 1:54:05.680 --> 1:54:07.960 time in each other like we spend. You know, we're 1:54:07.960 --> 1:54:10.479 in the same room, but we're on our phones or 1:54:10.760 --> 1:54:13.240 we talk, but we only talk about logistics. And so 1:54:13.280 --> 1:54:16.519 I think it's really about practicing what I preach and 1:54:16.600 --> 1:54:21.120 investing that daily effort. Okay, So reading your book, you know, 1:54:21.160 --> 1:54:25.559 this Sunday night check in certainly hit me and needle said, 1:54:25.600 --> 1:54:29.040 I don't do that. And you talk about your husband 1:54:29.120 --> 1:54:34.240 being fearful about a divorce with you, it seems you're 1:54:34.280 --> 1:54:39.240 certainly very verbal, personable, and intelligent. The question we become 1:54:40.760 --> 1:54:43.440 people might say, well, is she controlling him in the 1:54:43.480 --> 1:54:46.120 relationship or does he pushed back and say I don't 1:54:46.160 --> 1:54:48.800 want to do this or I don't want to do that. Oh, 1:54:48.920 --> 1:54:52.080 my husband is extremely stubborn and he does not let 1:54:52.120 --> 1:54:54.200 me get away with anything. That's kind of what I 1:54:54.240 --> 1:54:57.320 was saying before about keeps me saying and drives me crazy. 1:54:57.880 --> 1:55:01.240 Sometimes I wish he was more appliable and he would say, sure, 1:55:01.280 --> 1:55:04.800 whatever you want, but that's not his personality. He's extremely 1:55:04.840 --> 1:55:09.760 intelligent and extremely skeptical, and he does not do anything 1:55:09.920 --> 1:55:12.720 unless he's bought into the value of it. And so 1:55:13.400 --> 1:55:15.800 he's I'm lucky in that he lets me talk about 1:55:15.880 --> 1:55:17.760 him on podcasts like this and talk about him in 1:55:17.760 --> 1:55:20.880 my book, But he really only participates in these relationship 1:55:20.960 --> 1:55:25.280 things because he thinks that there's value in them. Okay, 1:55:25.680 --> 1:55:28.520 So another big thing you talk about, and you referenced 1:55:28.600 --> 1:55:33.720 it earlier, is don't expect your partner to provide to 1:55:33.840 --> 1:55:36.560 check everything in the list. So you talk about having 1:55:36.600 --> 1:55:41.600 activity partners. So okay, I'll talk about my own relationship. 1:55:42.640 --> 1:55:44.480 You know, I've been to a lot of exotic places. 1:55:44.520 --> 1:55:46.840 I'd like to go more. There's certain ones that my 1:55:46.920 --> 1:55:49.160 girlfriend says she doesn't want to go there. She doesn't 1:55:49.200 --> 1:55:51.920 want to go to Shanghai, Beijing. I'd really I have 1:55:51.960 --> 1:55:53.920 not been there. I've only been to Hong Kong and China. 1:55:54.440 --> 1:55:57.240 So do I just say hey, get somebody else to go, 1:55:58.120 --> 1:56:00.840 or do I say go? Because usually when you do go, 1:56:00.920 --> 1:56:06.280 you end up having a good time. Yeah? So um, 1:56:06.360 --> 1:56:09.280 I talked about this idea of other significance others, and 1:56:09.360 --> 1:56:11.880 this is an idea from Eli Finkel and Elaine Chung. 1:56:11.920 --> 1:56:14.360 And the idea is that in modern society, we expect 1:56:14.400 --> 1:56:16.440 to get our needs met by every We expect to 1:56:16.440 --> 1:56:18.280 get all of our needs met by one person. And 1:56:18.320 --> 1:56:20.960 we think you're going to be my lover and my 1:56:21.040 --> 1:56:25.000 best friend and my co parent and my business coach 1:56:25.120 --> 1:56:27.600 and my tennis partner. And it puts way too much 1:56:27.640 --> 1:56:29.960 pressure on one person, and that person is unlikely be 1:56:30.000 --> 1:56:32.200 able to meet all those needs. And so how can 1:56:32.240 --> 1:56:35.280 you have these o s os, these other significant others 1:56:35.320 --> 1:56:38.200 that play different roles in your life. And so it 1:56:38.280 --> 1:56:40.760 might be that with your girlfriend, she might have an 1:56:40.760 --> 1:56:44.320 OsO who's her travel buddy, and that might work out fine. 1:56:44.680 --> 1:56:48.080 But if you feel like well, you just might be 1:56:48.200 --> 1:56:50.560 stubborn about going. But once you go, you have a 1:56:50.560 --> 1:56:52.760 good time, then that's up to you. And so I 1:56:52.760 --> 1:56:55.360 think it's less important like, you know, do you travel 1:56:55.440 --> 1:56:57.760 with her or not? And more this big idea of 1:56:57.840 --> 1:57:01.360 we should be in grain in a community where we 1:57:01.400 --> 1:57:03.720 have different people that we go to for different things, 1:57:04.080 --> 1:57:05.880 and that we take some of the pressure off our 1:57:05.920 --> 1:57:08.000 relationship and we still invest in it, but we don't 1:57:08.000 --> 1:57:13.160 expect our partner to be our everything. And what about jealousy? Yeah, 1:57:13.360 --> 1:57:14.960 you know, I live in the Bay Area and there's 1:57:14.960 --> 1:57:20.520 a huge movement around relationship anarchy and ethical nonmonogamy. And 1:57:20.520 --> 1:57:24.080 one of the big ideas in ethical nonmonogamy is that 1:57:24.480 --> 1:57:27.120 instead of feeling jealous when your partners with somebody else, 1:57:27.160 --> 1:57:30.880 you actually feel what's called compulsion, which is joy for 1:57:31.000 --> 1:57:35.200 them at their pleasure. And so I'm in a monogamous relationship, 1:57:35.240 --> 1:57:39.480 but I have clients and friends and acquaintances, etcetera that 1:57:40.200 --> 1:57:44.200 are in these polyamorous or ethical nonmonogamy relationships and it's 1:57:44.240 --> 1:57:47.400 been really amazing to see them tackle jealousy, and so 1:57:47.480 --> 1:57:50.640 I would say in general, sometimes jealousy is helpful. It's 1:57:50.680 --> 1:57:52.880 a sign of what we want. I'm jealous of you 1:57:53.040 --> 1:57:55.160 because you've achieved this, and that's a sign for me 1:57:55.240 --> 1:57:58.360 that I want to achieve that. But other times, in relationships, 1:57:58.400 --> 1:58:02.000 I think it's a sign of insecurity. So okay, let's 1:58:02.040 --> 1:58:06.520 choose the example of the guy who likes to be 1:58:06.560 --> 1:58:09.200 out late at night for his business and the woman 1:58:09.240 --> 1:58:12.960 wants to be in bed at eleven PM. Let's just 1:58:13.000 --> 1:58:16.160 assume they do things separately. The guy is going to 1:58:16.240 --> 1:58:19.080 be meeting a lot of people. How does the person 1:58:19.120 --> 1:58:22.240 who goes to bed at eleven feel comfortable that these 1:58:22.640 --> 1:58:24.560 he's not going to meet somebody and leave her because 1:58:24.560 --> 1:58:28.280 this person is closer to his lifestyle. Yeah. I think 1:58:28.320 --> 1:58:30.280 there's a few levels there. So one is for that 1:58:30.320 --> 1:58:34.000 person to understand that they're not making a sacrifice by 1:58:34.040 --> 1:58:35.760 being with their partner who wants to go to bed 1:58:35.760 --> 1:58:37.800 at eleven. That partner is a great fit for them 1:58:38.040 --> 1:58:40.600 and helps them build a balance life, and so they're 1:58:40.640 --> 1:58:43.520 not settling for that person while going out and hoping 1:58:43.560 --> 1:58:46.600 to find somebody else at two am, and I think 1:58:46.640 --> 1:58:50.640 that in situations like that, you have to trust your partner. 1:58:50.680 --> 1:58:52.400 I feel like one of the things I love most 1:58:52.440 --> 1:58:56.360 about my husband is that I really really trust him. 1:58:56.560 --> 1:58:59.400 He's extremely honest, even sometimes when I don't want him 1:58:59.440 --> 1:59:02.320 to be, and I really trust his behavior. We each 1:59:02.360 --> 1:59:06.960 have plenty of friends of the opposite sex, and it's 1:59:06.960 --> 1:59:08.960 not a problem for us. And so I would say, 1:59:09.080 --> 1:59:11.720 if you're really worried about your partner going out and 1:59:11.760 --> 1:59:15.120 meeting other people, then that's a sign of some fundamental 1:59:15.200 --> 1:59:18.120 insecurity that needs to be tackled, and not just you 1:59:18.240 --> 1:59:19.800 being like, well, I'm going to force myself to go 1:59:19.840 --> 1:59:21.960 out because they might meet someone else, Like you can 1:59:22.000 --> 1:59:23.680 meet someone in an app, you can meet someone on 1:59:23.720 --> 1:59:26.920 the street. Like. You can't control somebody's behavior. What you 1:59:27.000 --> 1:59:29.680 can try to work on is a foundation of trust 1:59:29.760 --> 1:59:33.160 between the two of you. Now, your husband, you were 1:59:33.200 --> 1:59:35.840 involved with him and after a number of years he 1:59:35.960 --> 1:59:39.000 got cancer and had to have essentially half of his 1:59:39.120 --> 1:59:42.920 leg removed. You know what was that like? And did 1:59:42.920 --> 1:59:47.120 you would ever question your involvement with him? Yeah? I 1:59:47.120 --> 1:59:50.280 mean what was it like? It was fucking crazy. I mean, 1:59:51.040 --> 1:59:53.280 my husband is one of the healthiest people I've ever met. 1:59:53.400 --> 1:59:56.880 He's vegan, he works out every day, he reads books 1:59:56.880 --> 1:59:59.720 called how to Not Die. He's very very smart, and 1:59:59.720 --> 2:00:03.640 he's focused on longevity and really just interested in that 2:00:03.720 --> 2:00:05.680 kind of research. And so this was just a freak 2:00:05.720 --> 2:00:09.280 thing where he got bone cancer. And another reason it 2:00:09.320 --> 2:00:13.040 was so crazy is because he really started getting his 2:00:13.080 --> 2:00:17.400 diagnosis in March, just as the pandemic was starting, and 2:00:17.440 --> 2:00:19.000 so when he was going to get the m r I, 2:00:19.000 --> 2:00:22.760 I was like, don't go to a medical institution. That's crazy. 2:00:22.840 --> 2:00:25.000 You could get COVID right now. And so luckily he 2:00:25.040 --> 2:00:27.320 ignored me and got the m r I. But we 2:00:27.440 --> 2:00:31.120 just couldn't believe the diagnosis because imagining imagine a really 2:00:31.160 --> 2:00:33.480 healthy person in their early thirties. You just don't think 2:00:33.480 --> 2:00:36.880 it's going to be cancer. In terms of the amputation, 2:00:37.040 --> 2:00:41.320 I mean, it's a very slow process of recovery. It 2:00:41.360 --> 2:00:46.640 obviously changes your body forever um and he's had some 2:00:46.720 --> 2:00:51.320 other major surgeries as well. But I never questioned the relationship. 2:00:51.600 --> 2:00:55.680 I felt like I felt even more serious about him. 2:00:55.680 --> 2:00:58.120 I was like, I can really stand up and support him. 2:00:58.200 --> 2:01:01.360 I felt very capable. I think I'm good in emergencies. 2:01:01.520 --> 2:01:04.800 We have an amazing community that supported us. We had 2:01:04.800 --> 2:01:07.920 our friends throw us a last minute wedding. Um we 2:01:08.000 --> 2:01:11.880 got married in Golden Gate Park the day before his amputation. 2:01:12.000 --> 2:01:13.720 I mean, I feel like it just made us more 2:01:13.800 --> 2:01:16.600 serious about each other. And it makes me feel like 2:01:16.680 --> 2:01:19.240 whatever comes down the road, we know that we can 2:01:19.280 --> 2:01:23.040 handle it because we've handled such a freak challenging thing. 2:01:23.960 --> 2:01:26.760 Now you live what in what the New York Times 2:01:26.880 --> 2:01:32.320 labeled a commune? What do you what's your actual living environment? Yeah, 2:01:32.360 --> 2:01:34.120 I mean you could call it a commune. They called 2:01:34.120 --> 2:01:36.640 it a luxury commune, which now the people I live 2:01:36.720 --> 2:01:39.440 with quote all the time as a joke because this 2:01:39.480 --> 2:01:42.720 place is not luxury. I mean it's nice and we 2:01:42.760 --> 2:01:45.280 love living here, but I don't think you would call 2:01:45.320 --> 2:01:49.480 it luxury. Basically, during the pandemic, when my husband got 2:01:49.480 --> 2:01:52.320 this diagnosis, I was like, this sucks. I don't know 2:01:52.360 --> 2:01:55.080 how to do this alone. He's spending three out of 2:01:55.120 --> 2:01:58.720 five weeks in the hospital. I'm coming home to Pepperoni 2:01:58.760 --> 2:02:02.160 pizza on the floor, or this sucks. I I don't 2:02:02.200 --> 2:02:04.240 want to do this by myself. And so our friends 2:02:04.280 --> 2:02:09.080 had bought and developed this communal living situation in Oakland, 2:02:09.760 --> 2:02:12.040 and we visited them for dinner one night, and I 2:02:12.120 --> 2:02:15.080 was like, they're having the time of their lives. They're 2:02:15.080 --> 2:02:17.760 doing Camp Radish. This is the way to do the pandemic. 2:02:17.840 --> 2:02:21.080 And so they luckily had a one bedroom apartment open 2:02:21.200 --> 2:02:24.240 for us. We moved in a few weeks later, and 2:02:24.560 --> 2:02:27.120 I think it's the best thing in my life. I mean, 2:02:27.200 --> 2:02:29.879 I have dinner with friends every night. It's like living 2:02:30.120 --> 2:02:36.600 on a group trip. Everyone is creative, generous, open minded, interesting. 2:02:36.680 --> 2:02:39.120 It's really a group of people that I think are 2:02:39.160 --> 2:02:44.080 are living in a really joyful way. Okay, is this 2:02:44.160 --> 2:02:47.600 one of a kind or there are multiple Radishes. There's 2:02:47.640 --> 2:02:50.160 only one place called Radish, but we're part of a 2:02:50.160 --> 2:02:54.680 community of other communal living situations and it's somewhat popular 2:02:54.720 --> 2:02:56.880 in the Bay Area. I think once you start tapping 2:02:56.920 --> 2:03:00.480 into the network, there's other ones. And some are moral tternatives, 2:03:00.480 --> 2:03:02.800 some are less alternatives. Some have people in their twenties, 2:03:02.840 --> 2:03:05.600 some have people with kids, and I would say ours 2:03:05.640 --> 2:03:07.880 is in the middle. It's starting to have its first kids. 2:03:07.920 --> 2:03:10.800 But it's just it's really functional. I mean, there's not 2:03:10.840 --> 2:03:13.080 a lot of drama. We have a house meeting once 2:03:13.120 --> 2:03:18.440 a month. We share all of our food and cooking expenses, 2:03:18.560 --> 2:03:22.320 and yeah, it's just a really functional, happy place to live. Okay, 2:03:22.360 --> 2:03:25.680 So how big a building is in So there's one 2:03:25.800 --> 2:03:32.440 building with six bedrooms, there's another unit that has four apartments, 2:03:32.680 --> 2:03:37.760 and then there's um a building that has a communal 2:03:37.840 --> 2:03:40.520 kitchen and a communal living room. But then people are 2:03:40.640 --> 2:03:44.320 buying the houses next door, so it seems to be growing. Okay, 2:03:44.800 --> 2:03:50.440 So every night it's dinner together. Yeah, there's seven thirty dinner. 2:03:50.480 --> 2:03:53.160 It's absolutely not required. If you didn't come because you 2:03:53.200 --> 2:03:55.160 were traveling or you just didn't feel like being with 2:03:55.200 --> 2:03:57.320 the group, that would be fine. There's no expectation. But 2:03:57.760 --> 2:03:59.520 people we happen to have a lot of people right 2:03:59.560 --> 2:04:02.200 now who are either uh there's one guy who's a 2:04:02.200 --> 2:04:05.080 professional chef. There's people who are just really into cooking. 2:04:05.200 --> 2:04:08.240 And you know, it turns out cooking for fourteen people 2:04:08.680 --> 2:04:13.200 every fourteen days is a lot more fun and easier 2:04:13.240 --> 2:04:17.240 than cooking for yourself every day. So if everybody comes, 2:04:17.240 --> 2:04:21.520 it's fourteen people. Yeah, it's about that. As I was saying, 2:04:21.560 --> 2:04:24.120 you know, some people have gotten pregnant and bought houses 2:04:24.160 --> 2:04:26.520 nearby and they still come over a lot. And what 2:04:26.560 --> 2:04:28.240 we you know, it's called Radish, and we have these 2:04:28.240 --> 2:04:30.680 people called Ratillites that are kind of satellite members of 2:04:30.720 --> 2:04:33.280 the community. And sometimes people have guests and it can 2:04:33.320 --> 2:04:35.640 be you know, it could be as small as five 2:04:35.720 --> 2:04:38.680 or maybe as much as twenty people. And you own 2:04:38.720 --> 2:04:43.120 your unit, No, we just rent you rent. That Is 2:04:43.120 --> 2:04:47.080 it comparable to the price of a one bedroom elsewhere? Yeah, 2:04:47.120 --> 2:04:49.800 I think you know, I haven't looked for an apartment 2:04:49.800 --> 2:04:52.080 in a while, and I know stuff has changed during 2:04:52.120 --> 2:04:55.880 the pandemic. But I would say people are here not 2:04:55.960 --> 2:04:59.560 to live extravagantly and not to live cheaply. They're basically 2:04:59.560 --> 2:05:01.960 here because they feel like this is a better way 2:05:02.000 --> 2:05:05.880 to live. And so it's not about eating ramen and 2:05:05.920 --> 2:05:08.840 saving money. It's really about like life is better when 2:05:08.840 --> 2:05:12.080 you live amount among people that you respect and admire 2:05:12.120 --> 2:05:15.440 and have fun with. Well, somebody cooks dinner, and let's 2:05:15.440 --> 2:05:17.720 say I don't want to eat carbs or I don't 2:05:17.720 --> 2:05:19.920 know more, I don't need meat. What what goes on there? 2:05:20.480 --> 2:05:24.080 I mean, I think you can. I I don't think 2:05:24.080 --> 2:05:26.280 this will surprise you. But there's a long list of 2:05:26.320 --> 2:05:29.880 different people's eating restrictions. And so there's this person is 2:05:29.920 --> 2:05:33.800 low carb, this person's vegan, this person is pscytarian, this 2:05:33.880 --> 2:05:38.320 person is trying to be dairy free, And in general 2:05:38.360 --> 2:05:40.520 people just accommodate it and it's not that hard. It's 2:05:40.520 --> 2:05:43.000 like put the cheese on the salad on the side 2:05:43.080 --> 2:05:46.720 and make one vegan dish. And some people are really 2:05:46.720 --> 2:05:49.640 experienced that cooking and some people are not as experienced. 2:05:49.640 --> 2:05:54.200 But in general, people just try to accommodate different food requirements. Okay, 2:05:54.240 --> 2:05:56.960 if I go to dinner at seven thirty, how long 2:05:57.000 --> 2:06:01.240 I'm mighty sit there bullshitting? It depends. I mean, I 2:06:01.280 --> 2:06:04.360 love bullshitting. I feel like I wake up and I'm happy, 2:06:04.560 --> 2:06:06.560 and then I sort of crash around three, and then 2:06:06.560 --> 2:06:09.760 I get in a worse and worse mood until seven thirty, 2:06:09.920 --> 2:06:12.320 and then I have this huge boost of positivity and 2:06:12.440 --> 2:06:15.000 energy and I might, you know, go and eat dinner 2:06:15.040 --> 2:06:17.040 from seven thirty to eight thirty and then do dishes 2:06:17.080 --> 2:06:19.720 with people till nine and come back to my apartment. 2:06:19.840 --> 2:06:23.040 I might put on a TV show and watch Sometimes 2:06:23.040 --> 2:06:26.280 we just listen to music and hang out. It's it's 2:06:26.320 --> 2:06:31.720 really like this dinner party that you get to attend 2:06:31.760 --> 2:06:35.360 every night. If you're around and you want to go. Okay, 2:06:35.400 --> 2:06:39.360 any people you don't like no. I actually am surprised. 2:06:39.360 --> 2:06:42.400 I mean, we have a pretty strict policy where people 2:06:42.400 --> 2:06:44.960 are sub letters and then we kind of get to 2:06:44.960 --> 2:06:46.880 know them for two months and figure it out. But 2:06:47.000 --> 2:06:49.560 we're lucky enough that we have so many people that 2:06:49.600 --> 2:06:51.600 want to live here that we really get to pick 2:06:51.640 --> 2:06:54.600 and shoes. And most people have been living here since 2:06:54.640 --> 2:06:57.880 before me, so there's very little turnover. And I think 2:06:57.960 --> 2:07:01.440 it's basically like an an opt in self selection thing. 2:07:01.520 --> 2:07:03.640 Like if you're someone who's going to get so stressed 2:07:03.640 --> 2:07:05.880 that somebody used your knife in the kitchen, you're probably 2:07:05.880 --> 2:07:08.160 not a good fit and you probably will choose not 2:07:08.240 --> 2:07:10.800 to stay. And what if I'm working late and I 2:07:10.920 --> 2:07:13.760 come home at nine I missed dinner, Yeah, you would 2:07:13.800 --> 2:07:16.120 just go to the leftovers fridge or ask somebody to 2:07:16.160 --> 2:07:18.880 make you a plate, or you ate dinner before you 2:07:18.920 --> 2:07:21.280 got home. Okay, but let's say I want to buy 2:07:21.320 --> 2:07:25.120 my own personal crap, whether it be yogurt chips or whatever, 2:07:25.160 --> 2:07:28.320 when I keep those in my own apartment. Um, the 2:07:28.400 --> 2:07:30.680 cool thing is that you're paying into a food system, 2:07:30.720 --> 2:07:33.480 so you would just we actually have this system where 2:07:33.520 --> 2:07:35.760 you know, somebody's in charge of finances, somebody's in charge 2:07:35.800 --> 2:07:38.200 of ordering the food, and we basically have a slack 2:07:38.280 --> 2:07:40.840 channel called make It Appear, where you would put the 2:07:40.880 --> 2:07:42.800 name of the potato chips that you want and put 2:07:42.840 --> 2:07:44.640 it on there, and it would get ordered for you 2:07:44.680 --> 2:07:46.440 and a few days later it would arrive. And so 2:07:46.520 --> 2:07:48.680 if you really felt strongly that you wanted to pay 2:07:48.720 --> 2:07:50.280 for your own chips and keep it in your room, 2:07:50.360 --> 2:07:53.120 you could, But that's pretty rare. People are just like 2:07:53.400 --> 2:07:55.840 we have an abundance mindset. I get the groceries I 2:07:55.920 --> 2:07:58.880 want and if they get finished, then I'll just order 2:07:58.920 --> 2:08:03.680 them again. And so how many activities are there beyond dinner? 2:08:04.680 --> 2:08:07.120 It depends. We have these things called rad talks where 2:08:07.160 --> 2:08:10.920 people give a short lecture about something. So somebody works 2:08:10.920 --> 2:08:13.240 in climate VC and it's going to be talking about 2:08:13.240 --> 2:08:16.040 her climate fund. Somebody is giving a talk next week 2:08:16.120 --> 2:08:19.760 about her relationship history over the last five years. Somebody 2:08:19.840 --> 2:08:21.840 is giving a talk about the future of cities, and 2:08:21.920 --> 2:08:24.800 so it depends. Sometimes we have parties. I think we're 2:08:24.800 --> 2:08:28.760 having a stand up comedy show next Friday. It really depends. 2:08:28.760 --> 2:08:32.360 I wouldn't say it's like NonStop activities, which would probably 2:08:32.360 --> 2:08:35.480 be overwhelming, but if people choose to put something on. 2:08:35.560 --> 2:08:37.440 They just put it on the calendar, and then people 2:08:37.480 --> 2:08:40.760 show up, and what about trips and other activities outside 2:08:40.760 --> 2:08:45.040 the compound. We don't leave the compound that much. It's 2:08:45.080 --> 2:08:46.840 kind of funny. I went to a comedy show with 2:08:46.880 --> 2:08:49.600 people last Friday, and it was like weird being with 2:08:49.640 --> 2:08:52.520 them outside. I think there's kind of a gravitational pull 2:08:52.600 --> 2:08:54.400 to being here. It's like it's all the food that 2:08:54.440 --> 2:08:57.440 we want. It's super physically comfortable. We have a hot tub, 2:08:57.480 --> 2:09:00.240 we have a sauna, we have a fire pit. It's 2:09:00.360 --> 2:09:03.920 really really a nice space. And so we mostly hang 2:09:03.920 --> 2:09:07.000 out here together. And what pretendage that people are in 2:09:07.040 --> 2:09:12.360 relationships and what percentage you're single? Most people are in relationships, 2:09:12.400 --> 2:09:14.760 But I do like having the single people around. I 2:09:14.760 --> 2:09:16.960 feel like it mixes things up and they're bringing new 2:09:17.000 --> 2:09:19.840 people in and so, you know, it depends. Sometimes people 2:09:19.920 --> 2:09:21.600 come and go, and sometimes people are here and there 2:09:21.640 --> 2:09:24.240 in relationships and they break up. But maybe it's sevent 2:09:24.760 --> 2:09:28.760 in relationships and you frozen your eggs. You're married. During 2:09:28.800 --> 2:09:32.280 the you know, throws of your career, do you feel 2:09:32.360 --> 2:09:34.520 you're either going to time out or age out of 2:09:34.680 --> 2:09:38.560 radish or theoretically be there for a long time. Yeah, 2:09:38.640 --> 2:09:40.840 it's something I'm actively thinking about right now because I 2:09:40.840 --> 2:09:43.640 feel like the apartment I'm in is probably not the 2:09:43.640 --> 2:09:45.640 physical space that i'd want to have a family, and 2:09:45.640 --> 2:09:48.520 it just feels like a little bit small. But I'm 2:09:48.560 --> 2:09:52.120 seeing what other people are doing, and somebody who lives 2:09:52.120 --> 2:09:55.080 in the same apartment upstairs just had a kid and 2:09:55.080 --> 2:09:58.440 seems to be making it work. Um, somebody bought the 2:09:58.480 --> 2:10:00.960 house next door and is into graded with Radish, and 2:10:01.000 --> 2:10:03.880 so I feel like it makes sense to me that 2:10:03.920 --> 2:10:06.240 we are not meant to have families in these small, 2:10:06.320 --> 2:10:11.000 concrete little boxes. I think that leads to isolation, resentment, loneliness, 2:10:11.000 --> 2:10:12.760 and so I'd love to find a way to stay 2:10:14.000 --> 2:10:17.280 incorporated with Radish for a long time, as long as 2:10:17.320 --> 2:10:20.680 I feel like I have the physical space to be comfortable. Okay, 2:10:20.680 --> 2:10:22.680 it's a nice Jewish girl. I assume you went to 2:10:22.760 --> 2:10:26.480 summer camp. Is that a correct assumption? Yeah? So to 2:10:26.640 --> 2:10:29.680 what because I said, you know, if I could go 2:10:29.760 --> 2:10:31.720 somewhere for summer camp, I'd sign up for that on 2:10:32.000 --> 2:10:34.839 for the rest of my life. So to what degree 2:10:34.960 --> 2:10:39.320 is Radish resemble summer camp? Yeah? So I went to 2:10:39.440 --> 2:10:42.920 a few summer camps. One was like a performing arts one, 2:10:43.400 --> 2:10:47.560 one was a Jewish one, and honestly I didn't really 2:10:47.640 --> 2:10:50.160 love it. And then I went to these nerdier summer 2:10:50.160 --> 2:10:54.520 camps that happened at UH it was called Saint Mark's 2:10:54.520 --> 2:10:58.120 in Boston or Wellesley, where it was basically nerdy kids 2:10:58.120 --> 2:11:00.480 from around the country who would take kind of like 2:11:00.560 --> 2:11:04.400 pseudo college classes like politics of the Simpsons and sushi making. 2:11:04.440 --> 2:11:07.080 And that was one of the happiest periods of my life. 2:11:07.120 --> 2:11:10.360 And I think Radish is like that. It's basically nerdy, 2:11:10.520 --> 2:11:16.760 passionate people coming together designing their definition of fun. Well, look, 2:11:16.800 --> 2:11:18.640 and I want to thank you so much for taking 2:11:18.640 --> 2:11:21.400 this time. I mean, I'd rather talk about this than 2:11:21.440 --> 2:11:25.200 almost anything because it's all about people, and you found 2:11:25.200 --> 2:11:28.560 a niche. You know, if I was single, I would 2:11:28.560 --> 2:11:31.160 sign up, you know, I like to do everything once 2:11:31.240 --> 2:11:34.000 just to see what it's about. But if I was single, 2:11:34.040 --> 2:11:36.360 I would certainly, you know, at least by the group package, 2:11:36.400 --> 2:11:39.520 just to see what it's like. You know. So I 2:11:39.560 --> 2:11:42.040 think you're really onto something. And there are too many 2:11:42.120 --> 2:11:47.440 self professed experts who have no CV. It's really thin 2:11:47.600 --> 2:11:51.080 and that's obviously not you. So once again I want 2:11:51.120 --> 2:11:53.840 to thank you for taking this time. Thank you, it 2:11:53.920 --> 2:11:55.720 was so much fun. I was really honored to see 2:11:55.760 --> 2:11:57.880 your email and several folks sent it to me in 2:11:57.920 --> 2:11:59.040 and they're like, I don't know if you know who 2:11:59.040 --> 2:12:01.440 Bob is, but he's a really big deal. And the 2:12:01.480 --> 2:12:04.520 fact that you read that article did a deep dive 2:12:04.520 --> 2:12:08.200 into my life. Wanted to talk. It's incredibly validating and 2:12:08.520 --> 2:12:11.080 it was really fun to talk to you and talk 2:12:11.160 --> 2:12:13.480 about myself for the last two hours. And thanks for 2:12:13.520 --> 2:12:17.520 the opportunity you bet until next time. This is Bob 2:12:17.640 --> 2:12:40.400 Left Thash