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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Logan Jurie, author of the book

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Speaker 1: How To Not Die Alone, and director of Relationship Science

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Speaker 1: at Hinge. Logan, good to have you on the podcast. Hey,

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Okay, first question, is there

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Speaker 1: a lid for every pot? I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 1: think so necessarily. I feel like maybe there's a few

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Speaker 1: lids for one pot, and I don't really believe in

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Speaker 1: the one. I don't believe in soulmates. I feel like

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that we could make a

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Speaker 1: life with, and it's really up to us what kind

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Speaker 1: of life we want to live, and we can choose

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Speaker 1: different people for that. I'm actually looking for the reverse, uh,

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Speaker 1: not the person who's necessarily looking for the best match,

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Speaker 1: but people who believe there's they're never gonna fine love,

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Speaker 1: there's not somebody out there for them. It's an interesting question.

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Speaker 1: I just sent out my email newsletter today and it

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Speaker 1: was about finding a penthouse person or a basement person.

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Speaker 1: So a penthouse person is somebody who lifts you up,

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Speaker 1: they energize you, they make you feel your best. A

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Speaker 1: basement person is somebody who brings you down? And it

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Speaker 1: was basically saying, instead of dating with the checklist, he

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Speaker 1: must be this tall, he must make this much money.

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Speaker 1: Think about the person in your life who's your penthouse person.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's your best friend, maybe it's your cousin, and

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Speaker 1: date for somebody with those qualities. And a woman wrote

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Speaker 1: back to me and said, what if I'm a basement person?

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Speaker 1: What do I do about that? And I thought it

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Speaker 1: was so interesting because oftentimes we think about how can

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Speaker 1: I choose the right person? And rarely we think am

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Speaker 1: I the right person? And I think that actually is

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Speaker 1: a lot of it. Maybe there's nobody out there for

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Speaker 1: you because you are not allowing yourself to be loved,

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Speaker 1: or you are not allowing yourself to connect. And so

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Speaker 1: for someone like that, I might say, maybe you right

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Speaker 1: now need to do some work on yourself. But I

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Speaker 1: do feel like people who are open to connection and

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Speaker 1: are willing to compromise on the things that don't matter

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Speaker 1: and double down on the things that do, I feel

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Speaker 1: like there there is love for them. Okay, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's the threshold. There are many people, especially in today's

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Speaker 1: era of dating apps, who view it as like getting

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Speaker 1: a job. Very scientifically, But there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: other people who just cannot get over the threshold, even

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Speaker 1: though these people might to those who know them be

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Speaker 1: very desirable and if they just played, they would certainly

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Speaker 1: be inundated with those who want to interact with them. Now,

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Speaker 1: you may not see that many of those people because

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Speaker 1: they don't come to you. But what do you tell

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Speaker 1: those people to get engaged in the game. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I actually do see a lot of those people. I

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Speaker 1: call them hesitators. There are people that are just not

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Speaker 1: putting themselves out there at all, and they're not in

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Speaker 1: the game, and they oftentimes feel like they're just not

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Speaker 1: datable yet. They're just not ready for love. And they

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Speaker 1: tell me these things like if I lose weight, if

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Speaker 1: I get a more impressive job, if I finally unpack

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Speaker 1: those boxes in my apartment. So they're not even dating

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Speaker 1: because they feel like they're not lovable yet, and the

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Speaker 1: work that I do with them is helping them understand. Look,

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Speaker 1: the only way to get better at dating is by

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Speaker 1: actually dating. And it's kind of like stand up comedy.

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Speaker 1: If you just sit in your house writing jokes, you're

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Speaker 1: just writing. It's not until you're in front of an

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Speaker 1: audience that you're actually doing stand up. And similarly, these

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Speaker 1: people read self help books, so they think about how

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Speaker 1: they want to date one day. But you can really

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Speaker 1: only get better at dating by actually dating. And also

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Speaker 1: you only see what kind of person you want to

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Speaker 1: be with by actually going on dates. And so for

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Speaker 1: some of those people, it's just about getting out there

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Speaker 1: and dating. In terms of people that are just not

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Speaker 1: getting any matches or not seeing any success, I usually

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Speaker 1: like to talk to them and just look at their

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Speaker 1: past and look at their patterns and say, Okay, when

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Speaker 1: you have met somebody in the past, was it on

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Speaker 1: an app or was it at a dog park? When

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Speaker 1: you have connected with somebody, was it actually a friend

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Speaker 1: that turned into a relationship? And so some people maybe

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Speaker 1: are not actually the best fit for online dating, and

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Speaker 1: I'd rather look back and help them understand what are

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Speaker 1: the situations that set them up for success, and then

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Speaker 1: how can they do more of that. Now, the nature

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Speaker 1: of life is as you get older, there's attrition. And

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about a couple of specific examples.

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Speaker 1: I have a couple of friends who spouses have passed away,

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Speaker 1: and they're in their sixties, and you know, some of

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Speaker 1: them married a few times, but they just didn't envision

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Speaker 1: this happening, and they're so reluctant to get into the game.

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Speaker 1: Is there any advice you have for them? I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say I'm necessarily an expert on dating at that stage

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Speaker 1: of life. I have worked a lot with millennials and

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Speaker 1: gen z. I do get a lot of emails every

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Speaker 1: week from people who are like, you know, I'm in

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Speaker 1: my six season seventies and I read your book and

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Speaker 1: I didn't think it would be for me, but I

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Speaker 1: learned a lot. But I just want to start by

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Speaker 1: saying I'm not necessarily the most experienced with this. But

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Speaker 1: what I would say is for some people, they actually

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Speaker 1: aren't looking for someone. I hear from people all the

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Speaker 1: time they're like, I'm way happier being alone than being

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Speaker 1: in an unhappy relationship. And I think for some people

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Speaker 1: that's the right answer. For other people, when they have

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Speaker 1: been out of the dating game for years, trying to

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Speaker 1: date online feels really forced and not necessarily comfortable for them.

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Speaker 1: They feel like they're learning a brand new language. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: how I dated in the eighties is not relevant anymore.

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Speaker 1: But for those people, I would say just think about

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Speaker 1: the apps or think about online dating as the modern matchmaker.

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Speaker 1: That's just where the connection happens. But once you go

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Speaker 1: on that first date, it's the same experience. It's what

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Speaker 1: are you about? What am I about? What are you

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Speaker 1: looking for? Let's go have fun, Let's go on a hike,

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Speaker 1: Let's really get to know each other. And then the

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Speaker 1: last thing might be you know, speaking of attrition at

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Speaker 1: a certain age, are there other people in your life

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Speaker 1: that maybe you had a connection with and they've also

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Speaker 1: lost their spouse, and is there an opportunity to turn

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Speaker 1: some of those friendships or companionships into something more. Now,

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Speaker 1: in the Tinder era, more than ever, attractiveness is a

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Speaker 1: key element. And certainly those of us who live for

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Speaker 1: a while, there are certain people they're fighting off the

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Speaker 1: other sex or maybe same sex, if they are of

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Speaker 1: that ilk persuasion. You know today you gotta worry about

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Speaker 1: every word you use. You're gonna get canceled. But um,

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Speaker 1: you know, if they're gay or whatever. But then there

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Speaker 1: are people who say, well, I'm not high on the

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Speaker 1: attractiveness scale. So if I go on Tinder, j s

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Speaker 1: wipe all these other things, you know, my opportunities are

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Speaker 1: going to be limited, So what do you tell those people? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think about this a lot. There's this kind stup

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Speaker 1: called relations shopping. So we used to go relationshipping, which

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Speaker 1: is looking for a relationship, and now we go relations shopping,

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Speaker 1: which is shopping for somebody as if they were a

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Speaker 1: product that we're going to purchase. And so let's say

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Speaker 1: somebody was like, Bob, I need a new pair of

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Speaker 1: wireless headphones. You might think about, okay, well, how much

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Speaker 1: do you want to spend, what quality do you want?

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Speaker 1: What kind of charging? You might think about all the

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Speaker 1: specs and break the product down and then say, okay,

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Speaker 1: these are the single best pair of wireless headphones for

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Speaker 1: what I want. Unfortunately, people are also doing that with dating,

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Speaker 1: where they're breaking people down into their parts and saying height, attractiveness, education, job,

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Speaker 1: quality of photos, etcetera. And the issue with relation shopping

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Speaker 1: is that people are not what we call searchable goods.

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Speaker 1: People cannot be broken down into these parts. People are

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Speaker 1: what's known as experience goods, which is something like wine

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Speaker 1: or a movie. I might love this wine and you

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Speaker 1: hate it. I might really not enjoy this movie, but

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Speaker 1: it age you cry, and you thought it was triumphant,

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Speaker 1: and so people are really not something that can be

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Speaker 1: broken down into their parts. There are people that have

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Speaker 1: to be experienced to be understood, and so I do

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Speaker 1: think it's a shame when people feel like they can't

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Speaker 1: represent themselves because they'll just be you know, swipe left

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Speaker 1: on because of their attraction. That being said, there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways to shine on the apps. That's

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Speaker 1: not just how you look. And so, for example, with Hinge,

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Speaker 1: they have audio prompts, so you can record something in

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Speaker 1: your voice and you can tell a joke, you can

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Speaker 1: do an impression of a movie, you can say something silly.

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Speaker 1: My friend Joe, for example, he uses the voice prompt

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Speaker 1: how to pronounce my name, which is obviously there for

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Speaker 1: people who have hard to pronounce names, but he just

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Speaker 1: says Joe. And this factor's people out right. If you

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Speaker 1: think that's funny, you have the dry sense of humor

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Speaker 1: that he has. If you right back, do you really

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Speaker 1: think I don't know how to say Joe, then he

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Speaker 1: just knows that you're not for him. And so there

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Speaker 1: are these things that are happening right now that are

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Speaker 1: limiting that space between who you are on this two

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Speaker 1: dimensional app and who you are three D in real life,

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Speaker 1: and they're trying to make it easier to understand from

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Speaker 1: the app what that person is really like, and so

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Speaker 1: things like being silly, being funny, using correct grammar, expressing

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Speaker 1: yourself in a specific way, showing that you can be

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Speaker 1: silly and serious, and so yes, I do think in

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Speaker 1: general it's not just an app problem. People are very visual,

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Speaker 1: they're very focused on attraction, but there are these other

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Speaker 1: parts of your personality that you can make shine. And

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Speaker 1: I especially think that's true as people get older, because

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Speaker 1: in general, nobody in the sixties and seventies market is

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Speaker 1: as attractive as the person in the twenties market, and

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Speaker 1: so I would hope that the emphasis on attraction goes

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Speaker 1: down somewhat because it's just a different pool of people

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Speaker 1: that you're looking at. Well. As I say, I'm not

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Speaker 1: solely by audience, is not solely people of that age,

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Speaker 1: but just BEng In with one specific example, I have

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Speaker 1: a friend in his forties, makes seven figures a year,

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Speaker 1: very attractive, very in shape, never been married, says he

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Speaker 1: wants to be in a relationship. If that person came

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Speaker 1: to you, what would be the question you would ask him?

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Speaker 1: How would you you know, approach getting this person into

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Speaker 1: a reasonable relationship that might lead to marriage. Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: I think you gave me a good lay up there

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Speaker 1: by saying he says he wants to be in a relationship, Um,

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Speaker 1: but you seem to doubt it. And so I would

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Speaker 1: probably dig into that too. And so let's say I

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Speaker 1: was working with him in a coaching capacity. In the

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Speaker 1: first session, i'd really ask him to tell me his

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Speaker 1: dating history, probably starting in high school. People really like

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Speaker 1: to start in that time. A lot of people say

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Speaker 1: to me, I was a late bloomer. Nobody really looked

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Speaker 1: at me. Um, I didn't have high self confidence. This

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Speaker 1: is when I lost my virginity. People really like to

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Speaker 1: start pretty early on and telling me who they are.

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Speaker 1: And it's very interesting to hear their narrative. Some people

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Speaker 1: focused on the number of partners they've had. Some people

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Speaker 1: focus on how they were always so job or school

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Speaker 1: oriented and that's why it didn't happen for them. But

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Speaker 1: I would really listen to what he chooses to include

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Speaker 1: in that narrative and then dig in and ask certain

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Speaker 1: questions about, you know, why did you break up with

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Speaker 1: this person, or what did you like or not like

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Speaker 1: about them, and for him being in his forties and

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Speaker 1: it sounds like you think he's an eligible bachelor. I

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Speaker 1: would ask him, why do you think you're single? I

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Speaker 1: would have him text his friends and family and say,

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Speaker 1: why do you think I'm single? I would really start

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Speaker 1: to get some data points on what's going on with

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Speaker 1: this person, and then I would reflect and say do

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Speaker 1: I believe this? Sometimes people say, oh, I'm just too picky.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, well, maybe you're picky, but about the wrong things.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you actually never got over the fact that you

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Speaker 1: were a late bloomer and you really enjoy just dating

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Speaker 1: around and you're not looking for something. I would try

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Speaker 1: to dig in and say, what's your long term old

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Speaker 1: Do you want to have a family? Do you want

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Speaker 1: to grow old with someone? If you do, you have

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Speaker 1: to change your behavior because where you're headed now is

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Speaker 1: not leading towards a path of doing that, and so

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Speaker 1: you need to be on board with making a behavioral change.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes people aren't. Sometimes people actually are just happy

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Speaker 1: or not happy where they are, but they are not

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Speaker 1: willing to change their behavior. And you can't just do

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Speaker 1: the same thing over and over again and expect a

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Speaker 1: different outcome. How about you know with this same gentleman,

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Speaker 1: he gets in relationships which those of us who are

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Speaker 1: his friends might say are inappropriate. Is that an age thing?

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Speaker 1: Let's be these women be in their twenties, but I

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Speaker 1: am I'm referring that sort of a different These are

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Speaker 1: people who are self supporting, okay, and these are people

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Speaker 1: who are not is intelligent worldly that you know, one

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Speaker 1: wonders whether he can pick them by virtually the fact

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Speaker 1: that he can control them, and is fearful that he's

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Speaker 1: someone who's more established he might not be able to

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Speaker 1: control any thoughts about that. Yeah, I've definitely encountered people

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Speaker 1: like this, and I sometimes think that they create a

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Speaker 1: mentor mentee dynamic where, similar to what you said, they

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Speaker 1: want to feel like they're in control. They want to

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Speaker 1: feel like that person comes to them for guidance. There's

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Speaker 1: a sense of a power and balance that they seem

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Speaker 1: to benefit from. What I talked to them about that

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Speaker 1: is that mentor mentee relationships tend not to work out.

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Speaker 1: The mentor gets bored and the mentee gets resentful. And

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Speaker 1: as that person gets older and more independent, they start

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Speaker 1: to resent the older person for feeling like, um, they

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Speaker 1: need to ask them from permission or things, or they

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Speaker 1: just don't you know, they want to be in an

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Speaker 1: equal relationship. The other thing that I would say to

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Speaker 1: your friend is who are some of the relationships in

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Speaker 1: your life that you admire. Tell me about some of

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Speaker 1: your friends that have great marriages, great partnerships. I would

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Speaker 1: listen to what that person says, and I imagine that

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Speaker 1: he would say something like, I really like this couple.

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Speaker 1: They seem to have fun together, they have a great dynamic,

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Speaker 1: um they like traveling in the same way, and they're

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Speaker 1: just really pushing each other and they have fun. Or

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Speaker 1: he telling me about another couple where it just seems

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Speaker 1: like there's a lot of passion and they're really romantic

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Speaker 1: and they're not sick of each other. And then I

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Speaker 1: would talk to him about these what you called inappropriate

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Speaker 1: relationships and say do they have that dynamic and just

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Speaker 1: start to help him understand that obviously this is very hypothetical,

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Speaker 1: but that likely the relationships he's pursuing are about those

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Speaker 1: people's physical attraction or about the fact that if he

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Speaker 1: has more power, maybe they won't leave him. Maybe he

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Speaker 1: feels like he's trying to live out some high school

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Speaker 1: fantasy that he never got to have because he wasn't

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Speaker 1: cool in high school, and that it's time to grow

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Speaker 1: up and look for the life part NERD instead of

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Speaker 1: the promptdate. Okay, So I was on the phone with

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Speaker 1: somebody yesterday and we were talking about potential partners and

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Speaker 1: this is a big thing amongst guys, the issue of attractiveness.

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Speaker 1: And I said, well, in this demo, whatever, what percentage

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Speaker 1: of the people you want to carve out that don't

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Speaker 1: meet your qualifications? He go se but professing that he

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Speaker 1: would like to have a relationship, What would you tell

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Speaker 1: someone like that? Yeah, I've thought about this a lot.

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Speaker 1: I've thought about what matters more and less than people

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Speaker 1: think for long term relationships. And so some of the

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Speaker 1: things that matter less than people think include attractive attractiveness, money,

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Speaker 1: having the same personality, and shared hobbies. In general, people

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Speaker 1: tend to overestimate the importance of those. The reason why

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Speaker 1: it looks matter but matter lesson we think, is because

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Speaker 1: of this idea of adaptation. Over time, we just get

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Speaker 1: used to whatever's around us. And so I think I

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Speaker 1: said some in my book, like even halle Berry's husband

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Speaker 1: cheated on her, right, you can have like the most

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Speaker 1: attractive partner in the world. But if you see them

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Speaker 1: every day, you just get used to them and sort

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Speaker 1: of that initial joy or initial spark of that person's

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Speaker 1: level of attraction just you just get used to it

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Speaker 1: over time, and it's less exciting. So I wouldn't put

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Speaker 1: all my eggs in the attraction basket because you're just

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Speaker 1: gonna get used to it. Plus looks fade. Another thing

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Speaker 1: is money. It's the same idea. Yeah, it's great to

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Speaker 1: have money. It makes life easier. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: research that shows up to a certain amount money matters,

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Speaker 1: but over that amount, it just tends to fade into

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Speaker 1: the background. Your house, it matters more how big your

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Speaker 1: house is compared to your neighbor's house than how big

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Speaker 1: your house is. Over time, and so even if you

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Speaker 1: have a ton of money, you start comparing yourself to

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Speaker 1: people who have even more than you. You just get

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Speaker 1: used to that amount. That's why lottery winners tend to

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Speaker 1: be as happy as they were a year after winning

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Speaker 1: the lottery, because they just get used to having money.

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Speaker 1: Similar personality, you don't have to be a personality twin

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Speaker 1: with your partner. Maybe you compliment each other, maybe you're

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Speaker 1: really outgoing but you're you're also a little spacey and

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Speaker 1: you need somebody to ground you. And then shared hobbies.

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Speaker 1: I think people talk way too much about I love

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Speaker 1: music and this person needs to love music and Bob,

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Speaker 1: you might be an exception to this because music is

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Speaker 1: a huge part of your life. But for the average person,

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Speaker 1: you can have a hobby that you embrace with your

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Speaker 1: friends or that you do on the weekends, and your

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Speaker 1: partner doesn't need to have the same level of passion

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Speaker 1: for it. So I think people get really distracted by

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Speaker 1: some of those things and they are just not what

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Speaker 1: the research tells us matters for long term relationship success.

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Speaker 1: Do you think someone you might not be physically attracted

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Speaker 1: to initially you can grow to be physically attracted to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think above a certain threshold. So if you meet

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Speaker 1: someone and you are just grossed out by them, or

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00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,120
Speaker 1: what the kids call these days the ick factor, if

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Speaker 1: you're feeling the ig factor, you're probably not going to

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Speaker 1: overcome that. But there's tons of examples of people who

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Speaker 1: met somebody in their apartment building, met somebody at work

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00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,640
Speaker 1: who they didn't really feel an attraction to, but over time,

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Speaker 1: as they get to know that person as they see

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Speaker 1: how beautiful they look when they are talking about their family,

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Speaker 1: or how fun they are to be around when they're

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Speaker 1: doing a crossrood puzzle with them, that attraction grows. And

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Speaker 1: there's some really cool research on this. UM. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how much research you want me to get into today,

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Speaker 1: but UM, basically, if you just look at a group

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Speaker 1: of people and you say who are the hottest people,

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Speaker 1: we're all going to agree. But if we spend six

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Speaker 1: months with them and I get to know some people

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Speaker 1: and you get to know some people, at the end

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Speaker 1: of the six months, I'm going to think the people

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Speaker 1: that I got to know are most attractive, and you're

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Speaker 1: going to think the people that you got to know

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Speaker 1: are most attractive. And so attraction definitely grows over time

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Speaker 1: through what's known as the mere exposure effect, and also

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Speaker 1: just the more that you see different sides of someone,

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Speaker 1: the more they can grow on you. Okay, one of

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Speaker 1: the fascinating things that I read about you is you say,

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Speaker 1: or something you said, was people find those in therapy

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Speaker 1: very attractive. I'm a big believer in therapy, been going

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Speaker 1: for decades, etcetera. I've gotten a lot of ship for that,

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Speaker 1: and I know a lot of people who won't go

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Speaker 1: to therapy. So is it just a small subset of

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Speaker 1: people or generations different? What's going on there? So this

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Speaker 1: is research that we conducted it hand over the last year. Basically,

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Speaker 1: I was inspired to do this because I was talking

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Speaker 1: to a lot of people who said, to me, look,

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Speaker 1: the pandemic was really hard. It was really tough. It

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Speaker 1: pushed me to my limits. I went to therapy to

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Speaker 1: quote unquote do the work. Now I'm meeting these people

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Speaker 1: who haven't done any of that and they basically come

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Speaker 1: to me and I have to be their therapists, And like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not willing to do that. I've done the work.

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Speaker 1: I want to be with someone who's done the work.

377
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Speaker 1: It really felt like there was this cultural shift away

378
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Speaker 1: from therapy being this stigmatized thing that means there's something

379
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,320
Speaker 1: wrong with you, to being this very healthy thing that means, yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm prioritizing my mental health. And so what we found

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00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 1: it hinge was that over of people said I want

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Speaker 1: to be with someone who actively takes care of their

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Speaker 1: mental health. And then they also said if somebody mentioned

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Speaker 1: on the first date that they go to therapy, I

385
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Speaker 1: would be more likely to want to go on a

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Speaker 1: second date with them, and so I do think this

387
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Speaker 1: is a cultural shift. Uh, Millennials and gen z tend

388
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Speaker 1: to be way more focused on self help. They follow

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Speaker 1: a bunch of therapists and coaches on Instagram, they consume

390
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Speaker 1: a lot of self help podcast that's just part of

391
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Speaker 1: the zeitgeist. But I also think that the pandemic really

392
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,200
Speaker 1: pushed this because people were so challenged that they were

393
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Speaker 1: forced to deal with some of their stuff, and in

394
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: doing that, they were like, Wow, this is really valuable.

395
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Speaker 1: I wish I had done this before. I wish my

396
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 1: parents did it, and I absolutely want my partner to

397
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Speaker 1: do it. What's your therapy experience? Yeah, I mean, I'm

398
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 1: I'm Jewish, I'm from South Florida. I feel like therapy

399
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 1: is just something I'm very comfortable with. I've seen a

400
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: series of therapists in my life. I feel like some

401
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,880
Speaker 1: people have had really magical therapy experiences. I wouldn't say

402
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 1: I've had one particular therapist that was life changing, but

403
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 1: I think it's just really healthy at different stages to

404
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 1: have somebody to confess things to and to talk to.

405
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 1: And it's basically a space where you put a lot

406
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 1: of stuff that's messy that you don't want to bring

407
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 1: anywhere else. I also feel like one of the reasons

408
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 1: why my husband and I are married is because his

409
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,440
Speaker 1: mom is a therapist. And he has this joke he

410
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,199
Speaker 1: likes to say, which is, I didn't talk to my

411
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 1: mom that much growing up. She didn't take my insurance.

412
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,360
Speaker 1: That is funny. He's really funny, But I feel like

413
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 1: his mom is one of the major reasons we're married.

414
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: A lot of people these days like to say that

415
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,679
Speaker 1: they're feminine us, but I think my husband actually is

416
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: a feminist, Like he reads books by women about the

417
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: women experience. He liked The Show Girls. It's not like

418
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,439
Speaker 1: a showy thing for him. It's not about protesting or marching.

419
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 1: It's that he actually is very interested in what women

420
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 1: think and feels like men and women are equal. And

421
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: I think that just came from having a very sassy, opinionated, strong,

422
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: emotionally intelligent mom. And I feel really lucky to be

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00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: married to the son of a therapist, and as he

424
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 1: had individual therapy himself. Yeah, I mean, I think we're

425
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 1: both just of the Yeah. For us, therapy is like, yeah,

426
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 1: you have something going on, like you probably need to

427
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: go to a therapist. That there's I would say, it's

428
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 1: not stigmatized at all. And yeah, I would say I'm

429
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 1: lucky to be in a community where most people I

430
00:22:54,200 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: know have probably been to therapy at some point. Okay,

431
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 1: I had a free subscription to a o L and

432
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,719
Speaker 1: I'm dating myself when people had to pay by the minute.

433
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: So literally I lived on that service and it benefited

434
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 1: me professionally. But I would like to explore all those things.

435
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: I mean, there was love at a o well, never

436
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 1: mind the chat groups, chat rooms, and then match dot com.

437
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been in a one on one relationship

438
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: for decades, but I still have a free subscription if

439
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,239
Speaker 1: I could find the log in, because those of us

440
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: were grandfathered in. But when two interesting things. One I

441
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: found that I could say the same thing to two

442
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: different women get wildly divergent reactions when you're moving too fast,

443
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: the other one would say, this is just too slow,

444
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 1: I have to abandon you. The other thing I found

445
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: was that it really got my chops up for interacting

446
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: people with in regular life. So to what degree do

447
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: you believe just being in the game is working on

448
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: your own games? Such you're open to love or really

449
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: if you want to get in a serious relationship, the

450
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,199
Speaker 1: apps themselves can do this for you. Oh this is

451
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: this is funny to think about. It takes me back.

452
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: So I also had the free A O L subscription,

453
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: and then I spent much of my middle school in

454
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 1: high school years on a I am right, I am right,

455
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 1: of course, the predecessor of my message, of course. And

456
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 1: sometimes I like to think about, you know, the Malcolm

457
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: Gladwell ten hours thing. I'm like, my ten hours is

458
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: chatting day. Well, believe me, I feel the same way.

459
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: People say, you know, you know, I'll just go a

460
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: little left field here. People say, oh, chat rooms I

461
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: don't understand, say you don't understand how to play the game.

462
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: There's a there's a chat room for every sexual predilection.

463
00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: I said, I don't want to know what your sexual

464
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: predilection is. But in the user created rooms, it's there,

465
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: and there's it was thirteen or fourteen people in every

466
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: chat room, and then you click and get their profile

467
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: and then you connect, you contact them via aim. You know,

468
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,239
Speaker 1: to this day, what's interesting because older generations are much

469
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: less tech savvy than they say, and same thing with

470
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 1: younger generations. The old cliche used to be, well, if

471
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 1: you got a tech problem mass somebody who's twelve. That's

472
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: not necessarily the case anymore. But there's a lot of

473
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: experience to be gained there. So you gain that experience.

474
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: And now that I've gone off on my own, little Hahira, there,

475
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 1: give me continue the story you were telling. Oh sure, yeah,

476
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: I didn't spend a ton of time and chat rooms,

477
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: but I definitely it was a kind of thing where

478
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: maybe you sat next to a cute boy in class

479
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: and you never spoke, but when you would go home

480
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: at night, you would talk on a I AM for

481
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: three hours, and I feel like you, I really did

482
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 1: get my flirty writing style down. I usually think about

483
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: it as a waste where I'm like, I could have

484
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: learned Spanish, I could have learned how to code, Like

485
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: why did I spend so much of my time there?

486
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: But then I'm also like, I'm a pretty good written communicator,

487
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 1: and I think some of it was honed using that service,

488
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: And so I agree with you. And so in terms

489
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: of being in the game, I absolutely agree with that idea.

490
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 1: It's kind of what I was talking about before with hesitators,

491
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,959
Speaker 1: where some people are just not dating at all, and

492
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: maybe they are afraid of dating. They feel like they're

493
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: out of practice, they're afraid to get out there. But

494
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: so much research on how to achieve your goals has

495
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: to do with identity. Right. There's this great book Atomic

496
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: Habits where he talks about how his friend lost a

497
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: hundred pounds by saying every time she had to make

498
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,239
Speaker 1: a decision, she would say what would a healthy person do?

499
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,479
Speaker 1: And she basically adopted the identity of a healthy person

500
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: and then was able to make decisions like taking the

501
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: stairs instead of the elevator, ordering a salad instead of

502
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: the fries, whatever it was. And so the dating analogy

503
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: here is how can you adopt the identity of a

504
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: data and say I am a data? I am somebody

505
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: who goes on dates. That means that I save this

506
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: many nights a week for dating. It means that I

507
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: respond to messages on the app. I really feel like

508
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: you have to think of yourself as somebody who's in

509
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: the game. And if you just think of yourself as

510
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: somebody who will eventually be in the game, who who's

511
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: occasionally in the game, I don't find that those people

512
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: really make progress. You know. One of the things my

513
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: psychiatrist said early in the game, this is the nineties.

514
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: With this particular psychiatrist would say, yeah, certain things attract.

515
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: Physical attractedness is one thing, would attract love partner. But

516
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: also if you're a man, uh status, whether it be

517
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: fame or a certain job, money, you know, so many

518
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: people might say forget the people who are not playing

519
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: at all. Well, I'm playing at this level, but I

520
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: hope to play at a higher level when I got

521
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: further in my career. What might you say to someone

522
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I do a lot of work with

523
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: people where we say, okay, where are you now, where

524
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: do you want to get to? And what are the

525
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: steps along the way, and then I might walk them

526
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: through a checklist of you know, the bare minimum. So

527
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 1: at the bare minimum, you need a great profile with

528
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: attractive pictures and showing you in a flattering but accurate light,

529
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: something that tells a story. All right. You need to

530
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: be logging in pretty consistently, because if you just log

531
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 1: into the app every Sunday and then you let those

532
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 1: conversations die, you don't go on dates. You need to

533
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: be going on first dates that actually have good conversation

534
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: and leads to connection and maybe a kiss at the

535
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: end of the night. If your first dates aren't turning

536
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: into second dates, let's zoom in there, what's the problem?

537
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: How do we get you to second dates? And just

538
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: really working with people and seeing are you doing the

539
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: must have steps? And then where are you getting stuck?

540
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: And how can we fix that? And so I could

541
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: imagine maybe somebody listening to our conversation and being like, oh,

542
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: that sounds, you know, so technical, that sounds like you're

543
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: trying to apply maybe business techniques or thing to dating.

544
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, a lot of

545
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: people are single, they don't want to be they want help,

546
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: and we have blind spots that make it hard for

547
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: us to see what we're doing wrong. And so I

548
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: really like to be that third party that sits there

549
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: with them and says, well, if you're going on a

550
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: ton of first dates and no second dates, you're doing

551
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: something wrong in the first date, and let's figure out

552
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: what's going wrong. Now. I know from personal experience more

553
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: than once you're in a long term relationship, you hit

554
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: a point where the other person wants to get married. Okay,

555
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: So let's say someone comes to you said we'll have

556
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: a long term relationship. But really, I'm just in my twenties.

557
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: I don't really want to get married till they're till

558
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: I'm in my thirties, and then gets you know, starts

559
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: to get traction with someone. You know, what do you

560
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: tell someone like that. I've found that people change their

561
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: minds more often than they think. So I know so

562
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: many people who in their twenties said I don't want

563
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: to have kids, and then in their thirties all their

564
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: friends had kids, and they're like, I guess this is

565
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: the thing to do. And so part of that is

566
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: just an acknowledgment that people change over time way more

567
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: than we think we will. There's this really cool research

568
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: from Dan Gilbert out of Harvard called the end of

569
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: history illusion, where people think, oh, i'm twenty, I'm not

570
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: going to change. Oh i'm thirty, I'm not going to change.

571
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: I'm forty, I'm not going to change. We keep thinking

572
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: that we're done changing, but when you look back on

573
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,479
Speaker 1: the previous ten years, you've changed a lot. And so

574
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: part of it is just helping people acknowledge and understand

575
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: that your desires may change. Another thing is that sometimes

576
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: your timeline doesn't match up with somebody else's if you're

577
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: dating someone who's older, who's ready to get married now,

578
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: and that's not your exact preferred time, could you compromise,

579
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: Could you be ready a little bit earlier? And then

580
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: something else might be is it that you don't want

581
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: to get married or is it that you don't want

582
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: to be with this person? And maybe they're actually conflating

583
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: those ideas, and so I would dig in with them

584
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: and say, is this actually is it of timing or

585
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: is this not the right person? You know, the entertainment

586
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: business is littered with people who walked in in marriages

587
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: or had early marriages, had a lot of success, fire

588
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: the spouse and got somebody else. So you know, what

589
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: do you tell those people that really, you're not going

590
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: to find what you're looking for when you have something

591
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: established or now you have a better cv, you're really

592
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: going to find someone better. Yeah, it's funny. I don't

593
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: have a lot of personal experience with the entertainment industry,

594
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: but it reminds me of lots of friends who have

595
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: gone to business school, where you walk into business school

596
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: with the partner and then you meet someone who you

597
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: think is more on your level or you have more

598
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: in common with and suddenly there's a lot of divorces

599
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: happening that first year of business school, and so there

600
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: is a tendency in our culture. I think too. Maybe

601
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: it's like have a starter spouse or to trade up.

602
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: And the question I would ask this person is on

603
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: what dimensions are you trading up? Is it that you

604
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: think that you could have someone more attractive and so

605
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: you're you're leaving your first partner behind. I would really

606
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: question for those people where the decision is coming from.

607
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: And some of the celebrities and people I admire the

608
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: most are people who have their O G relationship and

609
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: their O G friends and basically have realized that that

610
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: person loved them even before they were Mark Zuckerberg world

611
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: billionaire and things like that. Right he's he's been dating

612
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: his partner for a long time, and so there of

613
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: course there's going to be divorces. And that's not the problem.

614
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: I think the issue is when people feel like they

615
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: need an upgrade to represent where they are right now,

616
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: and they might not realize realize the sacrifices they're making

617
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: because that person is drawn to who you are now

618
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: and maybe not who you were when you were a

619
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: more humble version of yourself. Okay uh. There was a

620
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: song in the eighties by Paula abdual Opposites Attract, and

621
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: I always use that as my mantra when it comes

622
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: to relationships. People are looking for someone who's identical to them,

623
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,479
Speaker 1: and as the couple therapists we see says, you know,

624
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: you would absolutely hate that. So what's been your experience?

625
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: I completely agree. I I just I think you said

626
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: it very well. It's like people think that they are

627
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: so great that they need to find someone just like them.

628
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: And I can remember a client of mine who came

629
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: in and said, I'm the life of the party. I'm

630
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: so much fun. I I literally do event planning for

631
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: a living. And I just don't know if I can

632
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: be with my girlfriend. She's such a homebody, and she's quiet,

633
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: and she wants to go home at eleven PM and

634
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: not sail till three am. And then I say, this person,

635
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: two of you in a relationship would be way too much.

636
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: You would be competing to be the center of attention.

637
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: Neither of you would be the grounding force that reminds

638
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: you to spend time together. I don't think that relationship

639
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: would work, and so I often recommend to people that

640
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: they find their compliment, and I can say, in terms

641
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: of my own experience, my husband and I are really

642
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: a different He's introverted, he's a scientist, he's doesn't care

643
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: what people think about him. He's vegan, he works out

644
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: every day. There's just sort of a private, self assured

645
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: nous to him, and I think I'm the opposite of that.

646
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: And sometimes he really frustrates me. And for example, we've

647
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: been married for two years, but we just had our

648
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: wedding celebration two weeks ago, and the first line of

649
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: my vows is when I look at your face, I

650
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: see the person who drives me crazy and the person

651
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: who keeps me sane. And that's exactly how I feel

652
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: about him. He annoys me so much. She's so frustrating.

653
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: Why won't he do anything I ask him to do?

654
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: And then I'm like, oh, yeah, this is why we've

655
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: been together for seven years because I love that he

656
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: doesn't do what I asked him to do, because it

657
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 1: keeps things interesting and he always surprises me. And I

658
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: can't just mold the world around I can't mold him

659
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: to my liking like I can do with other people.

660
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 1: And so I feel like it's that tension that keeps

661
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: you together. Okay, let's go through the varying dating apps,

662
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: because it's certainly changed from the era of just Match.

663
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: Then we have a Harmony, we have Bumble where you

664
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: work for Hinge Tender, explain the landscape. Yeah, So one

665
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: of the big changes that happened was prior to ten

666
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: years ago, most of these dating most most of the

667
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: online dating was on a desktop, right. So I remember

668
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 1: using okay Cupid in two thousand eleven and you could

669
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: search for different people and you could have these long

670
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: conversations and it was a very desktop focused experienced. And

671
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: then the big game changer was Grinder, where Grinder was

672
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: location based and you would see, oh, turns out my

673
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: neighbor is gay, and you know, down for some fun,

674
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: and it was really based on your phone and who

675
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: was around you. And then the next big technological change

676
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: was Tinder, which was ten years ago now inventing the

677
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: swipe and the fact that you could just right swipe

678
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: like someone or left swipe reject someone. And so those

679
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: were the big changes in terms of the scene. Now

680
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: almost everything is very app focused. There's apps that are

681
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: more focused for older folks. So things like our time

682
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: in general, e Harmony and match are tend to be

683
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: a little bit older, and then you have Bumble, you

684
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: have Hinge and Tinder in general exkews a little bit

685
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: younger or a little bit less focused on relationships. What

686
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: about I believe it's Rya. You know they have these

687
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: uh dating apps there have some level of exclusivity. What

688
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: has your experience been with that? I really only know

689
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: two couples that have come out of Riya. In general,

690
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing where people want you didn't

691
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: know that they're on Riya, but they're not necessarily using it.

692
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: Often are looking for a relationship, and so Rya is

693
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: one that I'm curious about because it definitely has that

694
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: prestige factor. But I haven't necessarily heard about a ton

695
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: of relationships coming out of it. Okay, I come to

696
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: see you. I'm you know, somewhere between twenty four and

697
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: thirty eight, and I want to have a relationship. How

698
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: do you choose which app you direct your client too? Yeah,

699
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: it's interesting. Some people are just on way too many

700
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: and then they get burned out or they feel like

701
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: they have to check too many of them, and so

702
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: I would just say, hey, let's pick maybe one or

703
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: two that you're on. Obviously I'm biased towards Hinge. I

704
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: really like it. I feel like I liked it before

705
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: I worked there. That's why I chose to work there. Um,

706
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: this is going to sound very salthy for Hinge, But

707
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: before I worked there, I was interviewing people from my

708
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: book and I had the chance to eat interview the CEO,

709
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: and I said to him, your tagline is designed to

710
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: be deleted, and I just don't believe it. I've worked

711
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 1: at tech companies. The biggest thing is you want to

712
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: avoid chre earn. You want to avoid having users join

713
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: and then leave. How could you be designed to be deleted?

714
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 1: That doesn't make any sense. And he said, ever since

715
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: we shifted towards that, we've had way more success because

716
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: if your brother meets somebody on Hinge, he's going to

717
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: tell everyone about it. If you read in the New

718
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: York Times in the vows section that somebody met on Hinge,

719
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: you're going to sign up for it. And so focusing

720
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: on actually getting people into relationships and not making the

721
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: app fun or a place to just you know, play

722
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: a game, and you know it's not gamified. It's not

723
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: about making the app fun. It's about meeting somebody and

724
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: then getting onto the data as soon as possible. Okay,

725
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: let's go to very specific. Some of these are more

726
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: pass like Okay, Cupid and plenty of Fish. To me,

727
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: those that didn't charge, let me put it in a

728
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: different way. Those that did charge got rid of a

729
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: lot of the detritus, people who were not serious or

730
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: not worthy partners. Is that reasonable or is that just

731
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: a bias. I would say it depends on your age

732
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,959
Speaker 1: and your intention. Maybe you're just online to have fun

733
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: and you just graduated from college, and you meet people

734
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,439
Speaker 1: at work, you meet people at bars, and you also

735
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: meet people online. I think what you're looking for is

736
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: totally different than somebody who's divorced with the kid, doesn't

737
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: have a ton of time and really only wants to

738
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: meet people who also want to get remarried and have

739
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: a family. And so I think it's almost like saying

740
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: is expensive food overrated? Well, you know, it depends what

741
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: can you afford and what are you looking for and

742
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: what are your expectations for food? And so I think

743
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: it's like the dating journey really really depends on your

744
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: age and how serious you are and what you're looking for. Okay,

745
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: let's go to another extreme and your experience. Is Craigslist

746
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: still a thing. I don't hear about craigslist hookups anymore.

747
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: I know there were casual encounters and things like that,

748
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: but I haven't heard about that in a long time. Okay,

749
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: so has someone you know it's a long time ago.

750
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: Someone who's certainly been on dates as a result of

751
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 1: online you know those places. I always tell people two things,

752
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: Get face to face as soon as possible, and then

753
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: make it so that it can be brief, because frequently

754
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: you know very quickly. What do you tell your clients?

755
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: I totally agree with the first point. I have found

756
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: that people spend way too long talking online before they

757
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: meet up in person. And I call it the Monet effect,

758
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: which is that our brains have a tendency to fill

759
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: in the gaps of information we don't know with positive information.

760
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: And so let's say somebody puts on their app I

761
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: love music. Your brain is going to go, oh, she

762
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: loves music. I bet she loves the same music as me,

763
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: And we basically create a fantasy in our minds of

764
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,959
Speaker 1: what this person is like. So the longer we talk

765
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: the longer the fantasy builds. So let's say three or

766
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 1: four weeks into talking, we finally meet up. Suddenly that

767
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 1: person doesn't match your fantasy, even if they're independently great,

768
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: they are different than what you've built up in their mind,

769
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 1: and that feels disappointing. It's much healthier, it's much more

770
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: effective to meet. Make sure you have some stuff to

771
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: talk about, make sure you're enjoying the conversation. They're asking

772
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: you questions, you're asking them questions. Get to the date,

773
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 1: and then see do we have chemistry in person? Do

774
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 1: we enjoy the sound of each other's voices, are we

775
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: curious to spend more time together? And so I really

776
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: think the much better strategy is meeting on the app,

777
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: talking on the phone or video chat as soon as possible,

778
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: meeting up in person quickly, and then making decisions based

779
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: on that, not based on text communication. Now the second half,

780
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: which would be meet somewhere where it can be brief

781
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: me for coffee as opposed to dinner or your take there. Yeah,

782
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: so I've I've changed my view on this over time,

783
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: But it might just be that I live in Silicon

784
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: Valley and people here are obsessed with productivity and effectiveness

785
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 1: and to do list. And I've worked with clients that

786
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: treat dating like something on there to do list between

787
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 1: going to the gym and picking up their dry cleaning,

788
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 1: and so they'll save twenty minutes for a coffee date

789
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: in between two meetings. And then they do this over

790
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: a year, and they wonder why it never works out,

791
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: and they think that this is must must just be

792
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: the people that they're meeting. But in that situation, I

793
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 1: would say, there's something about the way that you're dating

794
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 1: that's not leading to connection. You're in between two meetings,

795
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: You're probably in work mode, You're probably not being very flirtatious,

796
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: you might be stressed out, you might not be open,

797
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: you might be not vulnerable, because why would you become

798
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: vulnerable for twenty minutes in between two business meetings. And

799
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: so for some people, I feel like what they need

800
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: to do is actually go on fewer dates, but give

801
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: each date more time and say, I'm going to meet

802
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,439
Speaker 1: this person for drinks after work, and if it goes well,

803
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: I don't have anything later, so we can extend it

804
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: to dinner, we can extend it to going to another bar.

805
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 1: Um For some people, they just really are so burned

806
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: out that they're trying to make the date short, and

807
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: I think sometimes it does take a moment for you

808
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: to get to know someone. That being said, I also

809
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: work with clients and these tend to be female clients

810
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,439
Speaker 1: who say, oh, I went on this five hour date

811
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: with this guy, but I'm not interested in him. And

812
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, why did you give him five hours? And

813
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: she's like, well, he seemed to be having fun and

814
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be rude, And in that situation,

815
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: I'm like, you don't owe someone five hours. You don't

816
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: owe someone five drinks. You should give them a chance.

817
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 1: Maybe that's ninety minutes, but at that point, if you're

818
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,439
Speaker 1: not feeling it, you also need to respect your own time,

819
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: because going on five hour dates with people that you're

820
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: not interested in, it's just going to lead to you

821
00:43:52,960 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: feeling burned out. Okay, going to the other extreme, which

822
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 1: is the harmony, you don't really hear that much about

823
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: it anymore, but I know a number of people who

824
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: were married as a result of the harmony, which is

825
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 1: the opposite paradigm, which is you communicate a lot before

826
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: you do meet. Is what are your thoughts on that

827
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 1: in general? I would say that the pandemic change the

828
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: way that people dated, and the pandemic force people to

829
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: get more creative about what a date is. And so

830
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: I heard way more people going on video dates, going

831
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: on phone calls. People were basically doing this step in

832
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: between chatting online and meeting up in person, And so

833
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: I'm hearing more and more and more about that, And

834
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: so in general, I think people are getting offline sooner,

835
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: and even if it's just a phone call, They're seeing

836
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: do we have something to talk about? Do I like

837
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: the sound of your voice? Is there some chemistry? And

838
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: so I'm just in general, across different generally sations seeing

839
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: a shift of talking less online and getting to the

840
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: in person date or the phone call date sooner. How

841
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: much is it getting your chops up? Like you talk

842
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 1: about the issue, I'm not in the dating game right now,

843
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: but I respecting your own time. How do you teach

844
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: people to cut it short, as you say, we're not

845
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: talking twenty minutes, but to not give five hours and

846
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: respect their own time and ultimately feel good about ending it. Yeah,

847
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: it's interesting. I would say the more that I do

848
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 1: this work, the more I see that different people need

849
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: different advice. So some people are way too picky and

850
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: nobody is good enough for them. And some people are

851
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: not picky enough and they need to respect themselves more.

852
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: And so my advice for each of those people would

853
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: not only vary, but perhaps be the opposite. And so

854
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 1: for the two picky people, I would say, what are

855
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: the good qualities in this person? What is something that

856
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: you admire about them? Could you imagine yourself having fun

857
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: with them? For the person who's not picky enough, I

858
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: would say, realistically, is this person you're equal? Is this

859
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: a person that you feel could create the lifestyle that

860
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: you want? Is this person on your level? And so

861
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: I would give them opposite advice, And so for the

862
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: time thing, the same thing holds true. For some people.

863
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: I would say, give people enough of a chance, don't

864
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: just judge them for the first few minutes. And for

865
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 1: the other people, I would say, look, you don't owe

866
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: anyone anything. What you owe them is to show up

867
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: when you say you will, to be open minded and

868
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: give them a chance. But you certainly don't owe them

869
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: a certain number of drinks, and you certainly don't owe them,

870
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: you know, over an hour. We'll let me be a

871
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: little bit more specific I know, so these people who

872
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: run a hedge fund and they started cold calling people.

873
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: That was their first gig okay, and they experienced an

874
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: unbelievable amount of rejection. The average person, from my experience,

875
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: is so fearful of rejection or the other person feeling

876
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: bad about them that it inhibits them both to be

877
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: in the game. And then say this isn't working for me,

878
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: I'm going to pull back. Yes, that's definitely what I

879
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,240
Speaker 1: am hearing. I had this idea for an art project

880
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: a few years ago called the Rejection Room, where you

881
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:19,959
Speaker 1: would walk into a tunnel and on the side would

882
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: be all of these um screenshots of people rejecting each

883
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: other online or maybe a voice of somebody reading it

884
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: out loud. And I started to talk to my friends

885
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: and say, oh, can you send me screenshots of your

886
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: rejection And what I would hear most often is oh,

887
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: nobody really outright rejects you. They just ghost you. And

888
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: so the modern epidemic and dating is ghosting, where you

889
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: basically could be dating someone for literally months and then

890
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: they just stopped responding to And it's when I hear

891
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: these stories they feel so unbelievable, like you get home

892
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: from a trip and your your partners moved out. But

893
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: there really are extreme versions of ghosting happening. And I've

894
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 1: done research into this and very clear how people feel

895
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: in terms of getting ghosted. People say, I'd rather you

896
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: reject me outright. It hurts in the moment, but at

897
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: least I know where we stand. But when it comes

898
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: to the behavior, people say, oh, I would rather ghost

899
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: it's less awkward than having that direct confrontation. And so

900
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: I think you could attribute this to changes in digital communication,

901
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: people not seeing the results of their action when they

902
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 1: reject someone online instead of to their face. But yeah,

903
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: I think ghosting really represents what you're talking about, which

904
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: is people are afraid to outright reject someone. So what

905
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: do you tell your clients. I say, just let them know.

906
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 1: I say, in your notes app on your phone, save

907
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: a template and it could say, hey, blank, I enjoyed

908
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: getting to know you. I don't think we are a

909
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: romantic match, thanks for thanks for the drink, thanks for

910
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: a fun night, whatever you want to say, and you

911
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,439
Speaker 1: just you don't have to overthink it. You just send

912
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: that message and it lets the person know we're not

913
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: going to move forward. The worst thing is when you

914
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: leave somebody in this ambiguous space where they're saying, oh

915
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: am I ever going to hear from Bob again? Is

916
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: Loogan going to ask me out again? And it's in

917
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: that space that you're really wasting someone's time. And so

918
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: the research is very clear that the average person would

919
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: rather be rejected. We just don't do it because it

920
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: feels awkward. Okay, let's dive into hinge. You know, made

921
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 1: to be deleted. So what's so great about Hinge? Yeah,

922
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 1: first of all, I think Hinge is just really designed

923
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: to get people into relationships. And so it's not about

924
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: how do we make the app as fun as possible,

925
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,879
Speaker 1: how do we keep you on their swiping. It's really

926
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: about how do we design something that's going to lead

927
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: you to connect. So a couple of things that are cool.

928
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: One is we talked about those audio prompts, so you

929
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: could do an impression of of famous movie and say, uh,

930
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: you know, name the movie. You could talk about how

931
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: to pronounce your name, You could say, you know, this

932
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: is what dating me sounds like. Whatever it is, I

933
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: think that parts really fun. There's something called most Compatible,

934
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: where every day they say here's one person that's a

935
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 1: particularly good match for you. There's also Hinge was the

936
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: first to create these things called prompts, which are kind

937
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: of like icebreakers, so something like my typical Sunday or

938
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,959
Speaker 1: we're the same kind of weird if and it's really

939
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: a chance to show off your personality. And then in general,

940
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: I just think Hinge tends to attract people who are

941
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: actually looking to have a conversation, connect and go on

942
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: a date. Okay, bumble the woman gets to choose. That's

943
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: attractive to a lot of men. So what do you

944
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: say to both men and women about bumble? Yeah, I

945
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: mean clients that I've worked with have used all kind

946
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 1: of dating apps. I'm definitely more familiar with Hinge. I

947
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: think it's also about seeing in your city which one

948
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: works best for you, and so I would say, you know,

949
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: you can give a few of them to try see

950
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: where you have the most success, and then from there

951
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,280
Speaker 1: really invest in the one that seems to be working

952
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: for you. So what exactly do you do it? Hinge?

953
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: So I have this fancy title Director of Relationship Science,

954
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,479
Speaker 1: and what I get to do, which is a dream job,

955
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 1: is conduct research into modern dating. And so, for example,

956
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: let's say six months ago, I was like, all right,

957
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: I keep hearing about people who say I want to

958
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: date someone who's done the work. Let's investigate how are

959
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 1: people feeling about dating someone who's been in therapy. And

960
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: that's where we came out with this concept that the

961
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 1: biggest deal breaker for two would be if somebody doesn't

962
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: go to therapy or somebody doesn't invest in their mental health.

963
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 1: And then a few months ago, I was hearing more

964
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: and more about how gen Z is just not that

965
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: into drinking. They drink less than millennials did at the

966
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: same age. There's a huge rise and nonalcoholic beverage is.

967
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 1: It just really feels like there's a cultural shift away

968
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: from drinking. And so I spent the last few months

969
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: doing drink doing research into sober dates, and we found

970
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 1: that there's been that date or is this summer would

971
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: rather go on a date where they're not drinking, and

972
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: that's twice as much for gen Z. Gen Z is, like,

973
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,720
Speaker 1: I really care about my mental health. I hate having

974
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: a hangover. It makes me feel anxious. I want to

975
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: be in the right state of mind when I date.

976
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: And so now there's this big push towards sober dates.

977
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: So I basically look at what's going on in culture,

978
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: whether it's drinking, inflation, the pandemic, and then conduct research

979
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: to see what impact is this having on dating? How

980
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: exactly do you do it? Yeah, so we have a

981
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 1: research team, really great researchers with a combination of qualitative

982
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: research though talking to users, talking to people who don't

983
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: use hinge, talking to Gen Z, millennials, boomers, Gen X, etcetera.

984
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: And then we also conduct surveys that give us a

985
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 1: sense of what's going on with our users in the US,

986
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: around the world, people who don't use Hinge yet, And

987
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: so it's really just hearing those voices and getting those

988
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: survey results to get a sense of what's happening in

989
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 1: dating now with those people that you're surveying, be Hinge

990
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 1: customers or just the public in general. So mostly we

991
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: survey Hinge customers. Um, it's just kind of one of

992
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: those things where it's a lot easier to reach them,

993
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: but we have conducted surveys where we're talking to a

994
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 1: broader population and it sort of just depends on what's

995
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 1: the question that we're investigating. Okay, one other thing that

996
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 1: struck me in your book was you said not to lie,

997
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: and certainly when it comes to age, everybody I know

998
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: on the app, unless they're very young in their twenties

999
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,320
Speaker 1: mid twenties, they all lie about their age, and they

1000
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: and then there's a usue of what kind of picture

1001
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 1: to put up? Talk about that. Yeah, I think that

1002
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: that trend has actually changed a bit. So I think

1003
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: there was a point where it was assumed, oh, everyone's

1004
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: adding two inches to their height. Everyone's subtracting five years

1005
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: from their age. I have found and I think this

1006
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: really just represents our culture that there's sort of an

1007
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: expectation that there's so much information about you online that

1008
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 1: it's not really worth it to lie. Somebody can google

1009
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: you and see what year you graduated high school or

1010
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 1: what year you graduated college. Somebody can put together the

1011
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 1: pieces based on your LinkedIn and so in general I

1012
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: see people not lying about their age. The hype thing

1013
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: is hard to tell. Um. I know that people feel like, oh,

1014
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: if I'm this hight, you know women are going to

1015
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: filter me out. But my opinion on this is that

1016
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 1: you don't want to show up on a date starting

1017
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: from a place of deception. You don't want to start

1018
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 1: and say, hey, I'm actually fifty two. But if I

1019
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: put forty eight, I'm more likely to get matches, and

1020
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: so I did that. I think it just starts from

1021
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: a weird place. I think you want to start from

1022
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 1: a place of confidence and a place of honesty and

1023
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: build from there. I think this is going to change,

1024
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 1: or I'm interested to see what happens in our society

1025
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: with the proliferation of egg phrasing, because part of dating

1026
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: is that you want to date somebody who maybe you

1027
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 1: could have a kid with. And men start doing the

1028
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 1: calculation in their head, right, they think, oh, she's thirty five,

1029
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: we would meet, we would date for two years, we'd

1030
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 1: get married when we're thirty seven. Um, you know, she

1031
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: can only have a kid until this age. And people

1032
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,919
Speaker 1: start doing this fertility math. But as people do egg

1033
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 1: freezing and things like that, they're actually sort of changing

1034
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: their biological age and changing their fertility calculation. And so

1035
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,439
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how that would be incorporated into an app,

1036
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 1: but I can see a world where people are thinking

1037
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: differently about age because of some of the scientific advancements

1038
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 1: that come along. Have you frozen your eggs? Yeah, and

1039
00:55:57,880 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 1: so in a perfect world, since you're now in control

1040
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 1: old But as you say, people change when would you

1041
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: like to have children? Yeah, it's an interesting thing. So

1042
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 1: my husband worked at Google and he got egg freezing

1043
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 1: as a benefit, and so I really like yeah. I

1044
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: was like, hey, I'm not gonna say no to a

1045
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 1: very expensive benefit. And so four years ago we did

1046
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: embryo freezing. So you know what means, it's my eggs

1047
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: and then they're fertilized by his sperm. And so now

1048
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 1: I'm thirty four. But it makes me feel like I

1049
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: have these thirty year old eggs, and so I'm not

1050
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: sure when we're going to have kids, but I feel

1051
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,439
Speaker 1: a little less pressure because if we decide to use them,

1052
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: we have these very nice thirty year old eggs. The

1053
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: other thing is that my husband went through cancer treatment

1054
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: for the last two years, and so I don't know

1055
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: the deal with his sperm, but it might just be

1056
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 1: that the embryos that we froze when we were both

1057
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: thirty are in better shape than his sperm is now,

1058
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: and so I just feel really grateful that we did that. So,

1059
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,320
Speaker 1: since you're in the Ellia the Beast, is this really

1060
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 1: just upper middle class and wealthy people freezing the rags

1061
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: or is it promeating the whole socioeconomic strata. For now,

1062
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 1: it's definitely a very privileged thing. It's really expensive. It's

1063
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 1: uh yeah, it's a benefit at high paying tech companies.

1064
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: I think over time, as it becomes more common, more

1065
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: insurers will pay for it, more employers will pay for it.

1066
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 1: For now, I would say it's definitely in the upper

1067
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 1: middle class, privileged sector. But if you're thinking ahead ten

1068
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: or fifteen years, what happens when maybe women at just say, hey,

1069
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: you know, instead of grad school, or you know, instead

1070
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 1: of instead of giving me some money for grad school,

1071
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 1: I would love if I could get money towards egg

1072
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: freezing or things like that. I'm not sure where our

1073
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: culture is going on that, but if you just think

1074
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 1: about the fact that dating decisions in your twenties and

1075
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: thirties are often based on assumptions about fertility. If that

1076
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 1: fertility number shifts back five or ten years, how will

1077
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: that change dating? Okay, so you have this gig it

1078
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: hinge and you're also a dating coach. How do you

1079
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: split your time? How much time you're working on either one? Yeah?

1080
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: So Hinge has been really understanding about the fact that

1081
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 1: I love to do this one on one work and

1082
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: it informs the work that I do there. So it

1083
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: might be like a client of mine says something about

1084
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 1: being sober, and then I end up thinking about that

1085
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: and turning it into a research project. And so I

1086
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 1: do my hinge job during the day. It's based on

1087
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 1: the East Coast, and I live on the West Coast,

1088
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 1: so I start pretty early and I do my hinge job,

1089
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: and then I coach people in the evenings after work,

1090
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: and I also teach a dating class called Dates Smarter.

1091
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: And I'm really moving in some ways away from the

1092
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: one on one coaching and more towards this class because

1093
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: I feel like there's something about learning information in a

1094
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: community that's way more powerful than any individual thing that

1095
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: I could say in a session. Okay, so what came first,

1096
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: the book or the coaching. The coaching came first. The

1097
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 1: coaching was basically I was like, all right, I am

1098
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: extremely interested in this topic. I've been doing research on it.

1099
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 1: I've been doing interviews with people who are experts in

1100
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: the field, I've been reading books. I went to a

1101
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 1: dating coach, and now I was like, how can I

1102
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: share what I know with people? Time out? Tell us

1103
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: about you going to the dating chare. Yeah, So basically,

1104
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: I mean, how many years ago is this? Maybe eight

1105
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: or nine years ago? I was dating lots of people,

1106
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: I was using apps, and I met this guy at

1107
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: Burning Man and I was just very crazy about him.

1108
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: And I don't know if attachment theory and that whole

1109
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 1: genre has come across your desk, but basically I was

1110
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 1: very anxiously attached. I would find someone and kind of

1111
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 1: glob onto them and try to convince them to like me.

1112
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 1: And I really thought it was like achieving a goal,

1113
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: you know, you just have to prove your value to

1114
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: somebody and eventually they'll like you. And this guy had

1115
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: the opposite attachment style. He was avoidantly attached and basically

1116
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: as somebody got too close, he would push them away.

1117
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: And so we met at Bernie Man, and when we

1118
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: came back to the Bay Area, I thought that we

1119
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: would date, and we were in this cycle where I

1120
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: would smother him and he would pull away, and it

1121
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 1: was just going back and forth, and I felt very

1122
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: hurt by it. I felt out of control. I felt confused,

1123
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 1: and someone that I know recommended a dating coach, which

1124
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: I didn't even know that that existed at the time,

1125
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 1: and I went to see this woman and through seeing

1126
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 1: this woman, I learned to focus on the things that mattered.

1127
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 1: And so, for example, she made me do an exercise

1128
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 1: where I thought about how I wanted my partner to

1129
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: make me feel. I said, I wanted my partner to

1130
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: make me feel desired, attractive, inspired, confident, happy, all of

1131
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: these great emotions. And when I thought about how this

1132
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: guy from Bernie Man made me feel, it was the opposite.

1133
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,919
Speaker 1: That he made me feel like I wasn't good enough,

1134
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: like I was insecure. Was he going to call me?

1135
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: Was he not going to call me? I never knew

1136
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: where I stood. And I realized that this guy at

1137
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 1: work that I had been spending time with as a

1138
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: friend made me feel exactly the way that I wanted

1139
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 1: somebody to feel. But I had written him off for

1140
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 1: a number of reasons, and I basically realized that that

1141
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: was the kind of person that I should be with.

1142
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,439
Speaker 1: And now I'm married to that person. Okay, so then

1143
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 1: talk about starting your own coaching business. Yeah, so in

1144
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 1: the beginning, I coached people for free. And there is

1145
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 1: some research that came out about ten years ago from

1146
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 1: okay Cupid about what a hard time black women have

1147
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 1: on the apps. And so two groups that have a

1148
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: really hard time, or black women and Asian men. And

1149
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 1: so I actually started off my coaching business by coaching

1150
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 1: for free a couple of my black female friends who

1151
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 1: were having trouble, and I would develop some of the

1152
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 1: techniques that I still think are some of my my

1153
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 1: best things. Like I have this thing called the post

1154
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: date eight. It's a questions that you ask yourself after

1155
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: a date to tune into how the person made you

1156
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 1: feel and if you should see them again. I have

1157
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: this concept called the events decision matrix, which is really

1158
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: paying attention to what types of events you should go

1159
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 1: to to meet people, with the insight being events where

1160
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 1: you're likely to interact with people and you're likely to

1161
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: have a good time. And I moved from doing free coaching,

1162
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: was charging people, you know, a small rate, and then

1163
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 1: just it became friends and then friends of friends, and

1164
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 1: through that I what happened next, Yeah, I just I

1165
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: was really enjoying coaching and people were really benefiting from it,

1166
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: and so I continued to do it. And then I

1167
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 1: was working at Airbnb at the time, and I was like,

1168
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 1: all right, I want to turn this dating thing into

1169
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: a full time job, but I don't know how to

1170
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: do that, and so I took a three month sabbatical

1171
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: from Airbnb and I worked for a professor. And what

1172
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 1: I found was that this professor was brilliant and I

1173
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 1: loved his research, but it wasn't necessarily designed for lay audience.

1174
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 1: It was more for academics. And so I was like,

1175
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 1: how can I take the amazing research that's happening in

1176
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: all of these labs and how can I be the

1177
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 1: translator that brings it to the average person to help

1178
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: them date. And so that really became my goal. And

1179
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: so then I left my job at Airbnb. I did

1180
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 1: a program at TED where I basically worked from the

1181
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:31,440
Speaker 1: TED office. I conducted research on breakups and then I

1182
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 1: gave a TED talk and then through that experience, I

1183
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 1: got my book deal. And the book was amazing because

1184
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 1: I think we all need deadlines, we all need containers,

1185
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: and so I was like, all right, I have to

1186
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 1: write whatever it wasn't eighty thousand or ninety thousand page

1187
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: word book. And during that time I did more coaching,

1188
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 1: which was research. I did more interviews. I had dinners

1189
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 1: where I would discuss big topics with people, and then

1190
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 1: through my book, that's how I got the job at HINGE. Well,

1191
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, looking at the New York Times article, it

1192
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 1: looks like at the present time, coaching is quite lucrative. Yeah.

1193
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like dating and finding love is

1194
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: pretty recession proof. If you are single and looking for love,

1195
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 1: that is probably the biggest motivator in your life is

1196
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 1: to find someone. And I feel like I'm offering something

1197
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 1: that's different. I'm offering very realistic advice. I'm offering advice

1198
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: that changes your behavior and helps you overcome bad patterns.

1199
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 1: And I also think by the time somebody's coming to me,

1200
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:38,960
Speaker 1: they've tried other things. They've tried dating by themselves, they've

1201
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: tried asking for help from their friends, and they really

1202
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: need to work with somebody who's going to completely shift

1203
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 1: the way that they show up and dating. Okay, So

1204
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 1: another therapist I saw for a long time, he gave

1205
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 1: he would tell me what to do. And anybody has

1206
01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 1: had a lot of therapy know they don't literally tell

1207
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 1: you what to do your It's a very subtle hint

1208
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 1: and made the biggest mistake of my life. The present

1209
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 1: therapist I see never in a million years would tell

1210
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 1: me anything what to do. You know, you wouldn't call him.

1211
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 1: You would just say, well, we'll talk about the next session. So,

1212
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 1: thinking about your business, people are working with you, they're

1213
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: doing what you tell them to, they're having success. Then

1214
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,920
Speaker 1: do they say, Okay, I'm in a relationship I need

1215
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:28,919
Speaker 1: I can't break away, I need your advice. I gotta

1216
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 1: call you to sustain the relationship. Yeah, I mean I

1217
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 1: that's a great problem for me to have. I like

1218
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 1: to say that I help people find love and I

1219
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 1: help people not fuck it up, and so so okay,

1220
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 1: so let's see my found love and let's sue I

1221
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: get I'm moving towards marriage or I might even have marriage.

1222
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 1: To what percentage of your clients stay connected during that phase?

1223
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 1: It depends you know. Some people I see over a

1224
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 1: period of time. I had a guy who started with

1225
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 1: me when he was single. Then once he found a relationship,

1226
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: I started working with him and his girlfriend and we

1227
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: would meet the three of us who I would meet

1228
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 1: with each of them one on one. Then I coached

1229
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 1: them through getting married, and now I've coached them through

1230
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 1: having their first kid. And so there's people where it's

1231
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 1: like we just have a really good dynamic. I feel

1232
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 1: so invested in them and we just keep working together.

1233
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 1: There's people where we work together for a year and

1234
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 1: by the end maybe they've been in a relationship while

1235
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 1: we're together, but they've broken up. It really depends on

1236
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 1: the person. By the time people find me, they've often

1237
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 1: had a lot of struggles, and so I never say

1238
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 1: to someone, you know you're going to meet the love

1239
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 1: of your life in three months, like, I can't control you.

1240
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 1: I can't control the people you're meeting. What I can

1241
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 1: do is making sure that you're aware of your behavior

1242
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: and that you have a plan for how to act differently. Okay,

1243
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 1: so all your clients come from word of mouth? No,

1244
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 1: now that now that the book came out, I would

1245
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: say most of my clients come through the book or

1246
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 1: podcast that I have been on. And so that's been

1247
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 1: really fun because it's really changed the range of people

1248
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 1: I work with. I now work with people around the world,

1249
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 1: people probably from you know, twenties to seventies. Um. I

1250
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: I feel like there's just a lot more diversity and

1251
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 1: who I work with because people are hearing about me.

1252
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 1: They're not just one or two degrees removed from my community.

1253
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 1: So presently, how many individual clients do you have honestly,

1254
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 1: I would have to look it up. I feel like

1255
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: there are people who maybe have one session left as

1256
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 1: part of a package and are saving that for one

1257
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:41,200
Speaker 1: big final conversation. And so it's not an exact number

1258
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 1: because there are people who sort of still have like

1259
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:48,080
Speaker 1: an hour with me that they can cash in it sometime. Okay,

1260
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 1: well let me put a different way. I see that

1261
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 1: you have an assistant. How many people were in your

1262
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: organization just the two of you? Oh yeah, that was funny.

1263
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 1: They called through the assistant in the article and I

1264
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 1: was like, she's really not my assistant. She's smarter than

1265
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: I am. She does all of the operations. I feel

1266
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: so lucky that she works for me. I don't know

1267
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:08,479
Speaker 1: if you have somebody like this, or if you've worked

1268
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 1: with someone like this where you're just like you keep

1269
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:14,919
Speaker 1: me like, I can't imagine working without her. And so

1270
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 1: I have her who works for me full time basically

1271
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 1: running the class that we teach, um doing a lot

1272
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 1: of the operations. She's just like on top of the

1273
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 1: website and everything else. She is fantastic. And then I

1274
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 1: also have somebody who works with me doing social media,

1275
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 1: and so that's helping me with whether the visual design

1276
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 1: or responding to comments or editing videos. And that's something

1277
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 1: where it's like, how do I take a three hundred

1278
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 1: and thirty page book and turn one small concept into

1279
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 1: a video that people can then understand even if they're

1280
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:50,640
Speaker 1: never going to buy the book. Well, there's only so

1281
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 1: many hours in a week, and you say you're trans

1282
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 1: transitioning into a more group, but how much can you handle?

1283
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 1: How many people can you are quote service at one time? Yeah,

1284
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 1: it's interesting. I think about the scale. So with Hinge,

1285
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 1: I'm doing research that represents millions of Hinge users around

1286
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 1: the world, right, and then with my writing, you know,

1287
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:21,120
Speaker 1: many thousands of people have bought my book. With a podcast,

1288
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 1: you can have thousands of people, right. So it's like

1289
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:26,760
Speaker 1: going from the highest, biggest scale down to the one

1290
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 1: on one coaching. And I feel like where I am

1291
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 1: really enjoying right now is these classes. So the last

1292
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:34,040
Speaker 1: class I had had a dred and twenty people in it.

1293
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 1: I think the age ranges from seventy four, oh sorry,

1294
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 1: from to seventy four. And I think it's so great

1295
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:42,760
Speaker 1: is that I can give people advice and I can

1296
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:46,160
Speaker 1: give people information. But there's something special about learning in

1297
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:49,680
Speaker 1: a community where you hear somebody else express a problem

1298
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 1: that you used to have and you no longer have,

1299
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 1: and hearing that person talk about their issue makes you

1300
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 1: realize how far you've come. Or maybe you advise somebody

1301
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 1: else who's where you where five years ago, and things

1302
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 1: like that. Um, there's these affinity groups right, dating over fifty,

1303
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 1: dating as a single parent, um, dating as a queer

1304
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 1: person in a rural community, dating with chronic illness. And

1305
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 1: so I'm creating this community of vetted single people and

1306
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 1: then allowing them to connect to help each other. And

1307
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:22,960
Speaker 1: they spend so much time. They start texting each other,

1308
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,360
Speaker 1: they meet up in person, they form What's app groups,

1309
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:28,680
Speaker 1: and so I feel like I'm really designing this container

1310
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 1: for all these amazing people to meet. I give them information,

1311
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 1: I teach them, I give them feedback. But I think

1312
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 1: they're learning just as much or more from each other.

1313
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:40,120
Speaker 1: And what I've really done is brought them all together. Okay,

1314
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:42,719
Speaker 1: at this point in time, and I realized it's changing.

1315
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 1: What percentage of your time is one on one, what

1316
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 1: percentage your time is group? Huh? You know it depends

1317
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 1: for the classes. Like I would say, let's say I

1318
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: teach four or five live sessions, I might spend fifty

1319
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:02,840
Speaker 1: hours or more preparing the material for the one or

1320
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 1: one and a half hour session, and so it's sort

1321
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 1: of like, I know, that's kind of a sidestepping the question,

1322
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 1: but I guess I would maybe say fifty fifty right now.

1323
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 1: But it really depends because the classes are only in

1324
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:17,919
Speaker 1: session a few times a year, but there's a tremendous

1325
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 1: amount of prep that goes into them. So what's the

1326
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 1: dream I'm figuring that out. I mean, I love being

1327
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 1: in conversation with people, like I'm really enjoyed talking to

1328
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 1: you right now. I have had the chance to do

1329
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:38,600
Speaker 1: some TV interviews and I I really like that. I

1330
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 1: feel like there's an adrenaline rush to being live and

1331
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 1: you have to make your points and say the right

1332
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 1: thing and banter. Um. I enjoyed writing my book, but

1333
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 1: it's also really hard, and it's really like quite a

1334
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 1: solo task for me as someone who's so social, and

1335
01:11:57,120 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 1: so I'm just trying to figure it out. How do

1336
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 1: I get at the information that I really care about

1337
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:05,680
Speaker 1: out there? How do I keep it elevated so I'm

1338
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:09,599
Speaker 1: not just you know, engaging in the days TikTok trend.

1339
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think I'm just really trying to figure

1340
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 1: out how do I keep on top of what's going

1341
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 1: on in dating and help as many people as possible. Well,

1342
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:29,200
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to talk about things that

1343
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:33,000
Speaker 1: veered towards cults, but if you certainly look in the past,

1344
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 1: they are all these organizations, some of which still exists,

1345
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:40,560
Speaker 1: which have really grown exponentially. It's a big business, Okay.

1346
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 1: Is that your goal to be like the dating coach

1347
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:47,720
Speaker 1: of you know, of America. I realize your worldwide, but

1348
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 1: oh yeah, you want to go everybody knows that's where

1349
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 1: you go to go. You go to Logan's place. I'm

1350
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 1: not sure. I think the way that I think about

1351
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 1: my life is how you spend your day days, and

1352
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:02,960
Speaker 1: how you spend your weeks, and how you spend your years. Right,

1353
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 1: So I could tell you, oh, I want to make

1354
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,000
Speaker 1: this many millions of dollars a year by this date,

1355
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:08,400
Speaker 1: and I'll figure out a way to get there, But

1356
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:10,679
Speaker 1: that's not really what motivates me. I want to spend

1357
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 1: my time on Earth doing things I like. And so

1358
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 1: if I had to spend the next two years alone

1359
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,000
Speaker 1: writing a book that doesn't sound fun to me. I

1360
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 1: don't really enjoy being alone thinking in front of a

1361
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,440
Speaker 1: blinking cursor. What I really enjoy is being in conversation

1362
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:27,640
Speaker 1: with people. And so I would say, right now, I

1363
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 1: feel really lucky. I've been able to figure out a

1364
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 1: job that I can live the lifestyle that I want.

1365
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,559
Speaker 1: I can work with interesting people. I can pay for

1366
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 1: Kimberly to work for me full time. I can do

1367
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 1: research at Hinge. Like right now, I'm getting a lot

1368
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:46,960
Speaker 1: of those needs met. I think. I think that, yeah,

1369
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 1: this is just like a deeper conversation that I need

1370
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:52,360
Speaker 1: to have, probably with myself or with my husband. That's

1371
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 1: just like, how do I make sure that I'm spending

1372
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:58,320
Speaker 1: my time in a way that makes me happy and

1373
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 1: not just in pursuit of some big your goal that

1374
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:05,040
Speaker 1: maybe is actually kind of egotistical or empty. So let's

1375
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:08,640
Speaker 1: assume someone listening to this podcast is interested in your services.

1376
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:13,960
Speaker 1: The most of the people come through, uh, connecting via

1377
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:16,840
Speaker 1: your website or social media. How do they find you

1378
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:21,799
Speaker 1: to connect? Yeah, so the two biggest ways are following

1379
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 1: me on Instagram or subscribing to my newsletter. I have

1380
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:29,240
Speaker 1: a weekly newsletter called Logan's Love letter, and every week

1381
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:32,040
Speaker 1: I post dating advice or the latest trends in dating.

1382
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:35,360
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll talk about a piece of writing that I've done.

1383
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 1: People respond I write back, it's it's fifty people right now,

1384
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:43,599
Speaker 1: and it's a pretty engaged community, and that's the best

1385
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:45,559
Speaker 1: way to kind of follow along with what I'm doing.

1386
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:47,680
Speaker 1: And then, as we talked about a lot of my

1387
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:51,080
Speaker 1: work is trending towards the State Smarter class and some

1388
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 1: people are like, no, no, no, I'm so unique. I

1389
01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 1: need to meet with you one on one. And I'm like,

1390
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:58,719
Speaker 1: give this chance, give this class a chance. I feel

1391
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:01,120
Speaker 1: like you will get your needs at and you'll probably

1392
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 1: have more fun than you think you could have on

1393
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 1: a on a zoom class. Okay, so I'm interested. What's

1394
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 1: the nexus they connect with you or they connect with

1395
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 1: Kimberly in terms of putting them in lane. You know

1396
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:17,200
Speaker 1: I'm playing, I'm I'm ready to play. Yeah, they would

1397
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:20,280
Speaker 1: just email me or sign up. They could email me

1398
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:22,400
Speaker 1: it's logan at logan eari dot com, or they could

1399
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 1: sign up for the Date Smarter waiting list on my website.

1400
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:28,120
Speaker 1: And then when the next class is announced, which I

1401
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:31,800
Speaker 1: think it's going to happen in September. We would just

1402
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 1: let them know, like applications are open um, but I

1403
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 1: do get emails from people around the world asking specific questions.

1404
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 1: Sometimes I can help. Sometimes I'm just like, this isn't

1405
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:43,320
Speaker 1: you know a question that's a good fit for me,

1406
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:45,800
Speaker 1: Or I don't feel like I have enough context to

1407
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:50,599
Speaker 1: give you an appropriate answer. But yeah, I would say,

1408
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:57,679
Speaker 1: I'm I'm reachable online. Okay, I'm excited and I want

1409
01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 1: to and I contact you and I want to have

1410
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:05,360
Speaker 1: one on one. What then happens? Yeah, I would just

1411
01:16:05,400 --> 01:16:07,519
Speaker 1: send you an email letting you know when I have

1412
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 1: a spot available and what it costs, and seeing if

1413
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:14,120
Speaker 1: that's something that fits with you. Okay, So let's assume

1414
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:19,520
Speaker 1: I'm interested and uh, you know, I'm ready to play.

1415
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:23,040
Speaker 1: When might a spot be available? And what is the

1416
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 1: pay package? Is it? Okay? If we don't talk about

1417
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:30,240
Speaker 1: the pay okay, but the pay the pay is not

1418
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:34,519
Speaker 1: cheap in any event. Okay, So let's start with when

1419
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 1: might I you be available? Yeah, I have some spots

1420
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:39,960
Speaker 1: opening up in the next few months. People who I

1421
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 1: started with around six months ago are starting to wrap up,

1422
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:44,800
Speaker 1: and so I have some of those spots and then

1423
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:47,920
Speaker 1: usually what happens is I meet with somebody, we do

1424
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 1: an initial assessment, right, you know, I asked them about

1425
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:54,320
Speaker 1: the relationship history. I have some homework that they do

1426
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 1: before we meet. We really talked about like what's been

1427
01:16:56,680 --> 01:17:00,439
Speaker 1: going on? Okay, what's really going on? What? What? What? Well,

1428
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:05,759
Speaker 1: a little bit slower so I'm into one on one coaching.

1429
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,960
Speaker 1: First thing is I say, I'm into it. Next thing

1430
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 1: you say is I have to have a time. So

1431
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:15,640
Speaker 1: how often do you have a time available or does

1432
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:18,760
Speaker 1: that person have to wait? Yeah? So you know the

1433
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:22,680
Speaker 1: system Calendarly, I do not. Yeah. Anyway, it's so just

1434
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:25,439
Speaker 1: a calendar booking system. So I would say to them like, hey,

1435
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,439
Speaker 1: here's the price. Um, if you want to move forward,

1436
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,120
Speaker 1: you can book your first session through Calendarly. They can

1437
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:33,080
Speaker 1: just like look ahead at the openings that I have

1438
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 1: and then send me the payment and then we would

1439
01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:38,880
Speaker 1: get started. However far out the first session is, so

1440
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:42,920
Speaker 1: maybe it would be six weeks? Okay, So what are

1441
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 1: the options irrelevant of price which you'd rather not get into.

1442
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 1: Can you buy two sessions? Do you have to buy ten?

1443
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 1: How does it work? Right now? People are buying six sessions.

1444
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:55,559
Speaker 1: That's something that I've changed over time. I found like

1445
01:17:55,840 --> 01:18:00,240
Speaker 1: I found that six sessions is enough where the first

1446
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:04,920
Speaker 1: few I can really understand who you are here, your backstory,

1447
01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:08,200
Speaker 1: give you some assignments, send you out into the world

1448
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:11,320
Speaker 1: with some experiments to run. Then you come back to

1449
01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:13,439
Speaker 1: me and you say how those are working, and then

1450
01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:15,639
Speaker 1: we tweaked them, so you might say, I'm actually going

1451
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 1: on lots of first dates, but no second dates, and

1452
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 1: then we try to figure out what's preventing you from that,

1453
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 1: and then you can use the six sessions whenever you

1454
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:26,240
Speaker 1: want over a year, and what you really try to

1455
01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:30,160
Speaker 1: do is run, you know, try as many things as

1456
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:32,120
Speaker 1: you can, and then come back to me and we

1457
01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:34,400
Speaker 1: we tweaked the plan. And so it's not like therapy

1458
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: where we're meeting once a week and you may not

1459
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:38,960
Speaker 1: have anything in your mind. And sometimes the sessions are

1460
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:41,439
Speaker 1: great and sometimes they're not. Each session is supposed to

1461
01:18:41,479 --> 01:18:44,200
Speaker 1: be very juicy and you have a lot to talk

1462
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:48,680
Speaker 1: about with me, and how long is this session? Okay,

1463
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 1: so I'm in, I've signed up, I've bought six things.

1464
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:54,559
Speaker 1: You say, you send me up. You send me a

1465
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:58,240
Speaker 1: package which is to go a little deeper. What you're

1466
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 1: sending to me and what that experience is. Oh, I

1467
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:03,559
Speaker 1: just mean I sell a package of sex. No no, no,

1468
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:08,120
Speaker 1: no no, I maybe loose language on my part. You

1469
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 1: send self tests and questionnaires. Didn't I get that? Tell

1470
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:15,719
Speaker 1: me about that, That's what I'm sure. Yeah, So before

1471
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:17,840
Speaker 1: we meet, there's a few things that you do. So

1472
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:21,679
Speaker 1: one thing is you journal about, um, what's your greatest

1473
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:24,400
Speaker 1: wish for yourself in dating and relationships. So, for example,

1474
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 1: earlier in our conversation, we talked about your friend who's

1475
01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:29,280
Speaker 1: in his forties dating people who you don't think are

1476
01:19:29,320 --> 01:19:31,960
Speaker 1: the right fit and you're not sure what he really wants.

1477
01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 1: And so that's an opportunity for me to dig deep

1478
01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 1: with someone and say, what are you really looking for?

1479
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:42,559
Speaker 1: The next question is something around their greatest fears in dating.

1480
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:44,400
Speaker 1: So maybe this is a chance for them to tell

1481
01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:46,920
Speaker 1: me they feel like they're not lovable, or they feel

1482
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 1: like because their parents were divorced, they don't have a

1483
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:53,360
Speaker 1: relationship role model and they don't know what healthy relationships

1484
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:55,160
Speaker 1: look like. That's a chance for me to really get

1485
01:19:55,240 --> 01:19:58,639
Speaker 1: to know what's holding them back. And then I also

1486
01:19:58,720 --> 01:20:02,040
Speaker 1: do this assignment where they asked their friends and family,

1487
01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:05,960
Speaker 1: why do you think I'm single. And this works for

1488
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:09,360
Speaker 1: a few reasons. One is I talk a lot in

1489
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:12,839
Speaker 1: my book about dating blind spots, these patterns of behavior

1490
01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 1: or ways of thinking that hold people back from finding love,

1491
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:19,559
Speaker 1: but that they can't identify on their own. And that's

1492
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:21,800
Speaker 1: the thing. If it was so obvious, people could do

1493
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:24,759
Speaker 1: it on their own. They could say, I know my issue,

1494
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 1: I'm too picky. I just have to be less picky.

1495
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 1: But that doesn't magically work. A lot of times we

1496
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 1: can't see the truth of our own actions. And so

1497
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:37,000
Speaker 1: in sending this question to their friends and family, they

1498
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:39,519
Speaker 1: get a bunch of responses back. They can start to

1499
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:42,599
Speaker 1: see patterns. I can start to see patterns. The second

1500
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:46,040
Speaker 1: reason it works well is because it's leaning into that

1501
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 1: identity piece. You're saying to your friends and family, this

1502
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:51,280
Speaker 1: is something that I'm tackling right now. This is something

1503
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:53,200
Speaker 1: that I'm really working on and working with this woman

1504
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:57,160
Speaker 1: Logan and um investing in this and in adopting that

1505
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 1: public persona as a data and someone who's working on it,

1506
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:03,600
Speaker 1: people take you more seriously, and you take yourself more seriously.

1507
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:08,120
Speaker 1: So I do all this prep work, I send it

1508
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:11,400
Speaker 1: to you. What happens in my first hour. Yeah, in

1509
01:21:11,439 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 1: our first session, we talked through your answers, and so

1510
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:15,640
Speaker 1: you're telling me what you really want, You're telling me

1511
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:18,080
Speaker 1: your fears, and then you're sharing with me the answers

1512
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:21,320
Speaker 1: to that question. And so we're talking about all right,

1513
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 1: it sounds like what your friends and family think is

1514
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:26,599
Speaker 1: that you never got over your boyfriend from ten years

1515
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:30,719
Speaker 1: ago and that you compare everyone to him. Or I'll say,

1516
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:32,559
Speaker 1: you know, your friends seem to think one thing and

1517
01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 1: your family seems to think another. Who do you think

1518
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:37,080
Speaker 1: is correct? And so some of it is just understanding

1519
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:39,960
Speaker 1: where they are. Then we do that thing where we

1520
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:43,879
Speaker 1: talk about their relationship history, and we really go into

1521
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 1: what are their stories, what's their narrative? Who are they?

1522
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:53,160
Speaker 1: Do they believe that love is waiting for them? Do

1523
01:21:53,280 --> 01:21:56,599
Speaker 1: they believe that there's a perfect person out there for them?

1524
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:59,880
Speaker 1: And this is where I start to use some path

1525
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:03,959
Speaker 1: and recognition, and so I have this framework I've developed

1526
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:07,760
Speaker 1: called the three dating tendencies, which is three of the

1527
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:10,760
Speaker 1: most common types of daters that I've seen in my

1528
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 1: coaching practice. And so what they all have in common

1529
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:20,880
Speaker 1: is unrealistic expectations. The first type is the romanticizer, and

1530
01:22:20,920 --> 01:22:25,320
Speaker 1: they have unrealistic expectations of relationships. This is the person

1531
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:28,599
Speaker 1: who thinks there's a soul mate, there's one person out

1532
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:31,160
Speaker 1: there for me. They're gonna come in this package that

1533
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:36,040
Speaker 1: I recognize, and dating should be effortless and if it

1534
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:39,000
Speaker 1: ever gets hard, then this must just not be the

1535
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:41,599
Speaker 1: right person for me. And these are people who want

1536
01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:44,639
Speaker 1: to have the romantic meat cute, and they're very focused

1537
01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:47,840
Speaker 1: on this person's physical appearance and how the relationship is

1538
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:50,200
Speaker 1: going to be easy. And the work I do with

1539
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:52,640
Speaker 1: those people is saying to them, hey, this is not

1540
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 1: about Disney movies, This is not about rom comms. What

1541
01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:01,840
Speaker 1: really matters and love is working problems, doing small things,

1542
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:06,320
Speaker 1: often making the most of the relationship, building together. It's

1543
01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:09,639
Speaker 1: not about how you met, right if you date somebody

1544
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:13,040
Speaker 1: for fifty years, the day you met is point zero

1545
01:23:13,160 --> 01:23:16,519
Speaker 1: zero five of your whole relationship, and kind of taking

1546
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:20,960
Speaker 1: them away from the romcom paradigm and really moving them

1547
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:25,200
Speaker 1: towards a realistic view of love and dating. The second

1548
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:29,360
Speaker 1: type is the maximizer, and they have unrealistic expectations of

1549
01:23:29,360 --> 01:23:31,720
Speaker 1: their partner. And this is a type I see a lot,

1550
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:35,000
Speaker 1: especially in New York and San Francisco. And this is

1551
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:38,120
Speaker 1: the person who says, I love doing research. Anytime I

1552
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:40,800
Speaker 1: have a problem, I analyze it. I'm just gonna keep

1553
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:43,479
Speaker 1: dating and keep swiping and keep doing more and more

1554
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:47,680
Speaker 1: research because the perfect person is just one swipe away.

1555
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:50,519
Speaker 1: And so they reject everyone because they feel like somebody

1556
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:53,040
Speaker 1: out there has all the qualities that they're looking for.

1557
01:23:53,360 --> 01:23:55,720
Speaker 1: And they just get older and older and pickier and

1558
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:58,880
Speaker 1: pickier and just rejecting everyone. And they don't understand that

1559
01:23:59,080 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 1: they're not perfect. No one is perfect, and eventually you

1560
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:05,760
Speaker 1: have to choose someone and build a relationship. You don't

1561
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:09,320
Speaker 1: just find the perfect person and that's the perfect relationship.

1562
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:11,400
Speaker 1: And this is hard for people because they feel like

1563
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 1: I'm telling them to settle, but I'm not. I'm telling

1564
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:17,720
Speaker 1: them to be realistic and to understand that they can

1565
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:20,360
Speaker 1: build a relationship they want. And then the last one,

1566
01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:23,040
Speaker 1: which we talked about is the hesitator, and they have

1567
01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:26,680
Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations of themselves. They think that they're just not

1568
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 1: lovable yet, and so they're not even dating. They're waiting

1569
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:33,439
Speaker 1: for something to happen, like losing weight or getting a

1570
01:24:33,439 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 1: more impressive job. And for them the work is just

1571
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 1: saying stop hesitating, start dating, put yourself out there. That's

1572
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:43,360
Speaker 1: how you're going to get better at dating. Okay, so

1573
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:46,679
Speaker 1: we cover all these ground in the first session. What's

1574
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:51,880
Speaker 1: the assignment after the first session the assignment completely. It

1575
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:54,080
Speaker 1: depends on the person. There's a lot of therapy, you know,

1576
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:57,120
Speaker 1: called programmatic therapy, where I'm walking you through a certain

1577
01:24:57,160 --> 01:24:59,960
Speaker 1: thing every session, and I do that a little bit

1578
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:03,080
Speaker 1: in terms of the first homework and asking you about relationships,

1579
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:06,040
Speaker 1: but it just it could be a hundred different things

1580
01:25:06,040 --> 01:25:08,880
Speaker 1: for a hundred different people. And I really enjoy making

1581
01:25:08,920 --> 01:25:12,040
Speaker 1: up homework assignments on the spot. And so for somebody

1582
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:17,840
Speaker 1: who has fear of rejection, maybe for them it's sending

1583
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:21,720
Speaker 1: a lot of personalized comments and just putting themselves out

1584
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 1: there and kind of what we call rejection therapy. Just

1585
01:25:24,040 --> 01:25:26,479
Speaker 1: get used to getting rejected so that it doesn't bother

1586
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:31,280
Speaker 1: you as much anymore. For somebody who it feels like

1587
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:33,519
Speaker 1: they don't have anything to talk about on dates, maybe

1588
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:35,840
Speaker 1: it's actually okay, how can you invest in the hobby,

1589
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:37,920
Speaker 1: How can you go read some books, How can you

1590
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:41,320
Speaker 1: feel more interesting so that on dates you can actually

1591
01:25:41,360 --> 01:25:43,320
Speaker 1: share some of those things more, and so it's really

1592
01:25:43,360 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 1: seeing what is the thing in this person's life that's

1593
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,960
Speaker 1: holding them back from taking the next step, and how

1594
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:53,280
Speaker 1: can we break that down and help them tackle it. Okay,

1595
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:57,799
Speaker 1: I've paid, I've had my session, and do I start

1596
01:25:57,960 --> 01:26:01,760
Speaker 1: to go on dates after the first session. It's completely

1597
01:26:01,800 --> 01:26:06,560
Speaker 1: depends on the person. For some people, I say to them, Hey, um,

1598
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:08,920
Speaker 1: we need to work on your profile, So send me

1599
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:12,720
Speaker 1: sixty photos of yourself and I'm going to help you

1600
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 1: pick the top six photos and I'm going to help

1601
01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:17,639
Speaker 1: you rewrite your profile. So for some people they really

1602
01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:20,800
Speaker 1: need help with that. For other people, they already have

1603
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:23,400
Speaker 1: a ton of dates and the issue is not starting

1604
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:25,920
Speaker 1: to date, it's starting to pick different people or show

1605
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:28,720
Speaker 1: up differently, and so there's so many different types of

1606
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:32,560
Speaker 1: daters with so many different problems. That's really about understanding

1607
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 1: what is the thing that's holding that person back and

1608
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:38,760
Speaker 1: then coming up with a homework assignment that's within their

1609
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 1: stretch zone but not within the danger zone. So what

1610
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:46,040
Speaker 1: does work on a profile? Yeah, there's a ton of

1611
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:48,519
Speaker 1: research that we've done in this at hinge. So one

1612
01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 1: thing is thinking about your profile is storytelling who are you?

1613
01:26:53,520 --> 01:26:55,960
Speaker 1: What would it be like to date you. What are

1614
01:26:56,000 --> 01:26:58,559
Speaker 1: you looking for and how can you answer that in

1615
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:03,320
Speaker 1: your profile? And so your potos should be accurate but flattering.

1616
01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:05,559
Speaker 1: So there's a picture of myself that I really like

1617
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:07,960
Speaker 1: from two thousand nine, but I should not put that

1618
01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:10,280
Speaker 1: in my profile because that is not how I look right.

1619
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:12,200
Speaker 1: That was a long time ago, So that is not

1620
01:27:12,280 --> 01:27:15,280
Speaker 1: being the accurate a flattering category. You want to have

1621
01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:18,960
Speaker 1: photos that clearly show what you look like, no filters,

1622
01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:22,559
Speaker 1: no sunglasses. You want to show yourself with some friends

1623
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:25,040
Speaker 1: and family to show you have a social life. It's

1624
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:27,439
Speaker 1: great to have pictures of you doing something that you love.

1625
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:30,760
Speaker 1: You also want to respond to those hinge prompts very

1626
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:35,040
Speaker 1: carefully and show um in some you know your hobbies.

1627
01:27:35,080 --> 01:27:38,400
Speaker 1: So you could say typical Sunday, Maybe you say, wake up,

1628
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:43,360
Speaker 1: make myself fancy coffee, go for a walk with my dog,

1629
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 1: maybe go to a bookstore, um, have lunch with friends,

1630
01:27:49,080 --> 01:27:53,439
Speaker 1: and then spend the evening you know, watching movies. Something

1631
01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:54,880
Speaker 1: like that, Like give me a sense of what your

1632
01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:56,840
Speaker 1: life is like. Talk to me about what you're looking for.

1633
01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:00,559
Speaker 1: Say I'm looking for a long term adventure partner. I'm

1634
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:04,880
Speaker 1: just looking for fun. I'm looking for someone to sail

1635
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:07,040
Speaker 1: the world with whatever it is, And so people just

1636
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:10,000
Speaker 1: rushed through making their profile, and it's actually a huge

1637
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:13,920
Speaker 1: opportunity to really express who you are. And people I've

1638
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:16,360
Speaker 1: worked with have gone from getting almost no matches to

1639
01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:18,960
Speaker 1: getting a lot of matches just by something like changing

1640
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 1: out their pictures. Okay, at some point I'm engaging in

1641
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:28,400
Speaker 1: dates and I realize every person is different. But what

1642
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:31,320
Speaker 1: might the coaching look like it Maybe someone who merely

1643
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:34,200
Speaker 1: jumps into relationship, Maybe someone who meets for twenty minutes.

1644
01:28:34,760 --> 01:28:37,200
Speaker 1: You know, once I'm started in the field, what are

1645
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:40,799
Speaker 1: the issues that arise. One of the issues is states

1646
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:44,800
Speaker 1: that feel like job interviews. People show up and they say,

1647
01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:47,240
Speaker 1: where are you from, where did you go to school,

1648
01:28:47,400 --> 01:28:49,599
Speaker 1: what did you study? How many siblings do you have?

1649
01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:52,600
Speaker 1: What's your five year plan? And it's like an exchange

1650
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:55,200
Speaker 1: of information, and then they say to me, oh, I

1651
01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:57,960
Speaker 1: just didn't feel the spark. And so I try to

1652
01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:02,240
Speaker 1: deep program people away from that and say, how would

1653
01:29:02,240 --> 01:29:04,800
Speaker 1: you want to converse with somebody? Maybe you want to

1654
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:07,599
Speaker 1: talk about somebody at work who's driving you crazy and

1655
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:10,160
Speaker 1: get their advice. Maybe you want to talk about the

1656
01:29:10,200 --> 01:29:12,160
Speaker 1: crazy phone call that you got on the weight of

1657
01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:14,559
Speaker 1: the date. How can you actually show up and have fun,

1658
01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:18,720
Speaker 1: have a connection, be playful, have some flirtatious energy, and

1659
01:29:19,120 --> 01:29:22,360
Speaker 1: moving people away from that interview date mindset is one

1660
01:29:22,400 --> 01:29:25,360
Speaker 1: of the biggest things that I do. Something you mentioned

1661
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:28,599
Speaker 1: on social media which really cracked me up is going

1662
01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 1: on dates with people who don't ask questions. Oh yeah,

1663
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:35,000
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought this up, because I mean, obviously,

1664
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:36,800
Speaker 1: part of your job is that you ask questions for

1665
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:38,720
Speaker 1: a living, and you're you're very good at it. But

1666
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:42,600
Speaker 1: I get so many complaints about these people, and I

1667
01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:46,400
Speaker 1: started calling them z Q zero questions. And so what

1668
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:49,360
Speaker 1: happens is somebody will say to me, I went on

1669
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:51,160
Speaker 1: a date with this woman. I feel like I could

1670
01:29:51,160 --> 01:29:53,920
Speaker 1: write her biography. I know everything about her, and she

1671
01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:56,679
Speaker 1: didn't ask a single question about me. And it makes

1672
01:29:56,680 --> 01:29:59,200
Speaker 1: people feel like the other person is just so rude

1673
01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:03,599
Speaker 1: or not into did And so I did research where

1674
01:30:03,640 --> 01:30:07,559
Speaker 1: I asked my you know, fifty thousand newsletters subscribers, what

1675
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:09,320
Speaker 1: do you do in this situation and what do you

1676
01:30:09,320 --> 01:30:14,040
Speaker 1: think it means? And some people said, I'm actually very awkward.

1677
01:30:14,640 --> 01:30:17,800
Speaker 1: I sometimes forget to ask questions. I don't mean to

1678
01:30:18,560 --> 01:30:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, I hope somebody will give me a second chance.

1679
01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:23,880
Speaker 1: This is really something I'm working on. So some people say, like,

1680
01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:28,599
Speaker 1: I'm actually just awkward. Other people say, this is a

1681
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:31,800
Speaker 1: sign that this person isn't interested in me, and they're

1682
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:34,200
Speaker 1: just interested themselves, and so I move on. But where

1683
01:30:34,240 --> 01:30:37,760
Speaker 1: I've wound up is just telling people here's how to

1684
01:30:38,479 --> 01:30:41,240
Speaker 1: let the other person know that you want to be

1685
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:44,400
Speaker 1: asked questions. And you could say something like, wow, I've

1686
01:30:44,439 --> 01:30:46,160
Speaker 1: asked you so much. What do you want to know

1687
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:48,599
Speaker 1: about me? Or what can I tell you about myself?

1688
01:30:48,640 --> 01:30:51,920
Speaker 1: And so sort of just quietly or or suddenly nudging

1689
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:54,280
Speaker 1: them to ask you questions. You can also sort of

1690
01:30:54,320 --> 01:30:56,599
Speaker 1: poke fun at them. So, for example, a woman said

1691
01:30:57,320 --> 01:30:59,680
Speaker 1: that a guy complained about his sister in law for

1692
01:30:59,720 --> 01:31:01,080
Speaker 1: a now and a half, and so at the end

1693
01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:03,320
Speaker 1: of that she said, how do you feel about your

1694
01:31:03,360 --> 01:31:07,439
Speaker 1: sister in law? I can't tell. And you know, the

1695
01:31:07,479 --> 01:31:10,920
Speaker 1: best case, of course, is using humor to let someone

1696
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:13,280
Speaker 1: know that they're breaking a social norm. But I think

1697
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:16,679
Speaker 1: it's just fascinating how much this comes up, and it's

1698
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 1: everyone thinks, oh, it's just women don't ask men, or

1699
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:21,600
Speaker 1: men don't ask women, But I get emails about this

1700
01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:26,439
Speaker 1: from everyone, and I think the takeaway is the best

1701
01:31:26,479 --> 01:31:30,440
Speaker 1: way to make someone think you're charming is asking good questions.

1702
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 1: It is much more important to be interested than interesting.

1703
01:31:35,120 --> 01:31:37,080
Speaker 1: The more that you can get somebody to open up

1704
01:31:37,080 --> 01:31:39,840
Speaker 1: and talk about themselves, the more they enjoy talking to

1705
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:45,800
Speaker 1: you and learning how to ask interesting questions, Questions that

1706
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:48,439
Speaker 1: help people explore who they are, that help them go deep.

1707
01:31:48,920 --> 01:31:58,960
Speaker 1: Is one of the best ways to get a second date. Okay,

1708
01:31:59,000 --> 01:32:02,680
Speaker 1: you have this, Well, it's a mathematical equation. They hit

1709
01:32:02,760 --> 01:32:06,120
Speaker 1: thirty seven percent, and then you date someone who's explain

1710
01:32:06,200 --> 01:32:09,760
Speaker 1: that yea. So this comes from a book called Algorithms

1711
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:14,280
Speaker 1: to Live By and the concept is called the secretary problem.

1712
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:17,120
Speaker 1: And basically what it is is, imagine you're hiring a

1713
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:21,440
Speaker 1: secretary and admin whatever, and you have a hundred candidates.

1714
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 1: You have to go through each candidate one by one

1715
01:32:24,320 --> 01:32:27,519
Speaker 1: and say yes or no, so you can't go back

1716
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:30,240
Speaker 1: and get somebody from earlier on. And so the mathematical

1717
01:32:30,320 --> 01:32:33,160
Speaker 1: question is at what point should you stop. If you

1718
01:32:33,160 --> 01:32:35,679
Speaker 1: wait until the end, maybe all the good people are gone.

1719
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:38,760
Speaker 1: If you hire somebody too early, maybe you don't know

1720
01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:42,680
Speaker 1: who's out there. And So the mathematically correct answer is

1721
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 1: that you go through thirty seven percent of the candidates,

1722
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:47,519
Speaker 1: and you've met thirty seven of them, and you say

1723
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:50,559
Speaker 1: who was the single best person from that group, and

1724
01:32:50,640 --> 01:32:53,840
Speaker 1: that person is now your benchmark. The next time that

1725
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:57,679
Speaker 1: you interview somebody who's better than that benchmark, you hire

1726
01:32:57,720 --> 01:33:01,000
Speaker 1: them on the spot. And so the point is that

1727
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:03,560
Speaker 1: you get a sense of who's out there, make a benchmark,

1728
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:08,080
Speaker 1: and then select the next person. With dating, what they

1729
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:10,200
Speaker 1: do in this book, algorithms live by as they say,

1730
01:33:10,240 --> 01:33:12,840
Speaker 1: imagine you're going to date from eighteen to forty. We

1731
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:14,519
Speaker 1: don't know how many people you're gonna date, but we

1732
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:17,200
Speaker 1: can say maybe you'll date for those ages. So what

1733
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:20,320
Speaker 1: is thirty seven percent of the way through? It's twenty

1734
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:23,160
Speaker 1: six point one years old. So by the time you're

1735
01:33:23,200 --> 01:33:25,920
Speaker 1: twenty six, you say, who is my single best person

1736
01:33:25,920 --> 01:33:29,519
Speaker 1: I've dated so far? That's now my benchmark. The next

1737
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:31,960
Speaker 1: time I find someone who I like as much or

1738
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:35,360
Speaker 1: more than them, I'm going to commit to that person.

1739
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:39,919
Speaker 1: And the reason why I love to use this example

1740
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:43,559
Speaker 1: is because for those maximizers, the people who are always

1741
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:46,800
Speaker 1: thinking the next best person is out there, and I

1742
01:33:46,880 --> 01:33:49,640
Speaker 1: just have to keep swiping. It helps them understand you

1743
01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:52,479
Speaker 1: likely have already dated somebody who would make a great partner,

1744
01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:55,599
Speaker 1: and it's about choosing somebody and committing to them. It's

1745
01:33:55,600 --> 01:34:01,000
Speaker 1: not about this infinite search and infinite research. So what's

1746
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:04,840
Speaker 1: your hit to ship ratio? What does that mean? That

1747
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:08,879
Speaker 1: means your success ratio? I realize it depends on the clients.

1748
01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:12,160
Speaker 1: Hundred people come in, how many have a long term

1749
01:34:12,200 --> 01:34:16,760
Speaker 1: relationship after working with you? I honestly don't have a

1750
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:21,759
Speaker 1: great answer for that, because for some people, what success

1751
01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:24,000
Speaker 1: looks like for them is that they haven't dated in

1752
01:34:24,200 --> 01:34:26,759
Speaker 1: ten years and they start dating again. And so maybe

1753
01:34:26,760 --> 01:34:29,080
Speaker 1: they don't find a partner in the time we're working together,

1754
01:34:29,120 --> 01:34:32,639
Speaker 1: but they overcame their fear of dating. For some people,

1755
01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:35,880
Speaker 1: they might meet the person that they marry. For some

1756
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 1: people's success is that they exited toxic relationship or run

1757
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:42,600
Speaker 1: in the other direction when they see red flags. And

1758
01:34:42,600 --> 01:34:45,640
Speaker 1: so I would say all of my clients experience a

1759
01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:49,080
Speaker 1: lot of success in overcoming their behavior. That doesn't always

1760
01:34:49,080 --> 01:34:51,680
Speaker 1: mean that they find a partner right away. Okay, so

1761
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:56,160
Speaker 1: tell me about the group D sessions. How often are

1762
01:34:56,200 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 1: they in a year, and how many people in a

1763
01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:00,720
Speaker 1: group yeah, So Kimberly and I are are figuring this out.

1764
01:35:00,800 --> 01:35:03,040
Speaker 1: We've done a bunch of experiments where we've had classes

1765
01:35:03,040 --> 01:35:06,439
Speaker 1: of thirties, sixty, hundred and twenty and we're basically like,

1766
01:35:06,560 --> 01:35:08,559
Speaker 1: how big is too big? When is this going to break?

1767
01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:10,479
Speaker 1: And right now it hasn't broken. And in fact, I

1768
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:12,840
Speaker 1: think our class with a hundred and twenty was maybe

1769
01:35:12,880 --> 01:35:15,960
Speaker 1: the most fun because you were very likely to have

1770
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:19,080
Speaker 1: somebody else in that class who was experiencing the quirky

1771
01:35:19,160 --> 01:35:23,120
Speaker 1: dating problem that you were experiencing. Um the Neck class

1772
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:25,240
Speaker 1: is probably going to be in September and it's either

1773
01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:28,040
Speaker 1: going to run for between three to six weeks. And

1774
01:35:28,080 --> 01:35:30,840
Speaker 1: how it works is you meet once a week with

1775
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:35,440
Speaker 1: me and I teach a live workshop with slides and exercises,

1776
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:37,720
Speaker 1: and it's very high energy. It's kind of trying to

1777
01:35:37,760 --> 01:35:40,520
Speaker 1: be like you've ever been to a Tony Robbins experience

1778
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:43,200
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, like every few minutes something is changing.

1779
01:35:43,240 --> 01:35:46,320
Speaker 1: It's it's very engaging, it's not like your average zoom meeting.

1780
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:50,160
Speaker 1: And then you also have homework that you're doing in

1781
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:53,479
Speaker 1: between classes, you're getting feedback on it. You're also meeting

1782
01:35:53,479 --> 01:35:56,480
Speaker 1: in small groups with people who might share some qualities

1783
01:35:56,520 --> 01:35:59,880
Speaker 1: with you, and then there is a slack community, so

1784
01:36:00,040 --> 01:36:03,320
Speaker 1: people are constantly asking each other questions, getting feedback, getting

1785
01:36:03,400 --> 01:36:07,840
Speaker 1: first aid ideas, getting advice on their profiles. And so

1786
01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:10,840
Speaker 1: it's like whether the last one was six weeks, and

1787
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:13,559
Speaker 1: so for this six week period, you're basically all in

1788
01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:16,519
Speaker 1: on dating. You're going through this boot camp, You're creating

1789
01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 1: this identity around dating, and people really seem to get

1790
01:36:20,479 --> 01:36:25,639
Speaker 1: very transformative results from that. You know, I remember listening

1791
01:36:25,680 --> 01:36:29,760
Speaker 1: to talk radio and learning certain things and going to

1792
01:36:29,840 --> 01:36:34,120
Speaker 1: my shrink and saying, yeah, in reality, you're just the opposite.

1793
01:36:34,760 --> 01:36:37,599
Speaker 1: You know. It's like if you read my number one bitches,

1794
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:41,880
Speaker 1: these billionaires and other very successful people giving advice that

1795
01:36:42,040 --> 01:36:45,599
Speaker 1: worked for them, and unless you are literally them, it's

1796
01:36:45,680 --> 01:36:48,080
Speaker 1: never going to work for you. Never mind, Look, you

1797
01:36:48,160 --> 01:36:51,800
Speaker 1: have to find out what your strengths are. So irrelevantive

1798
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:56,240
Speaker 1: cost I find if it's one on one, even though

1799
01:36:56,560 --> 01:37:00,639
Speaker 1: as I say, maybe much more expensive, my uh odds

1800
01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:05,880
Speaker 1: of positive results are much higher. Yeah, you know, I

1801
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:07,840
Speaker 1: I thought that for a long time too, And I

1802
01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:10,200
Speaker 1: think many people come to my website and are like

1803
01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:12,280
Speaker 1: a group class. I'm not interested in that. This is

1804
01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:14,280
Speaker 1: really private. I don't want to talk about it publicly.

1805
01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:16,960
Speaker 1: I want the one on one help. But I've had

1806
01:37:17,040 --> 01:37:19,320
Speaker 1: clients that worked with me one on one and then

1807
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:21,760
Speaker 1: took the class, and when they took the class, I

1808
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:26,479
Speaker 1: feel like they just started moving faster. And so I've

1809
01:37:26,520 --> 01:37:30,639
Speaker 1: just seen that learning in a group setting is different.

1810
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:33,920
Speaker 1: If you meet with me once a month, you have

1811
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:36,439
Speaker 1: a homework assignment, you have insights, but it's up to

1812
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:38,920
Speaker 1: you whether or not to change. When you are part

1813
01:37:38,920 --> 01:37:42,559
Speaker 1: of a community, it's so powerful. There's social norms. Everyone

1814
01:37:42,680 --> 01:37:45,800
Speaker 1: is doing this. Everyone is going on dates on Thursday nights.

1815
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:49,080
Speaker 1: Everyone's talking about those dates on Friday. Everybody's sharing this.

1816
01:37:49,280 --> 01:37:53,599
Speaker 1: I I am a really huge proponent of the power

1817
01:37:53,680 --> 01:37:56,760
Speaker 1: of community and the power of social norms. And sometimes

1818
01:37:56,920 --> 01:38:00,120
Speaker 1: when you want to change your behavior, information on it

1819
01:38:00,160 --> 01:38:02,599
Speaker 1: gets you so far right. There's this concept called the

1820
01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:05,879
Speaker 1: information action gap. I can tell you how many calories

1821
01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:08,679
Speaker 1: are in a donut, but if you're walking into Dunkin Donuts,

1822
01:38:08,720 --> 01:38:11,000
Speaker 1: you don't care. You're there to buy a donut. And

1823
01:38:11,080 --> 01:38:16,040
Speaker 1: so information is helpful, but you also need exercises, environment

1824
01:38:16,160 --> 01:38:18,960
Speaker 1: activities to actually get you to change your behavior. And

1825
01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:22,240
Speaker 1: the class seems to be that immersive experience that causes

1826
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:24,519
Speaker 1: people to not just know the right thing to do,

1827
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:29,040
Speaker 1: but actually do it. Okay, let's assume I'm in a relationship.

1828
01:38:29,120 --> 01:38:32,400
Speaker 1: In your book, you talk about a number of things,

1829
01:38:32,479 --> 01:38:35,960
Speaker 1: one having a weekly check in, so my I would

1830
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:38,880
Speaker 1: like you to talk about that, and also how you

1831
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:43,000
Speaker 1: evaluate that you should get married, and also how you

1832
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:47,800
Speaker 1: should evaluate that you should get divorced. Yeah. So a

1833
01:38:47,880 --> 01:38:50,760
Speaker 1: lot of my thinking about relationships comes from John and

1834
01:38:50,840 --> 01:38:54,160
Speaker 1: Julie Gottman. Are you familiar with them the Goatman Institute

1835
01:38:54,439 --> 01:38:57,800
Speaker 1: only from your book? Okay, Yeah, So anyway, I'm I

1836
01:38:57,840 --> 01:39:01,240
Speaker 1: think their research is amazing. I feel like it's so helpful.

1837
01:39:01,640 --> 01:39:03,840
Speaker 1: And one of the biggest things that they talk about

1838
01:39:04,080 --> 01:39:07,000
Speaker 1: is just the fact that you need to constantly be

1839
01:39:07,080 --> 01:39:10,439
Speaker 1: investing in your relationship. They have this expression small things

1840
01:39:10,520 --> 01:39:12,479
Speaker 1: often and so people think, oh, I can just put

1841
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:15,200
Speaker 1: my relationship into maintenance mode and once a year going

1842
01:39:15,280 --> 01:39:18,720
Speaker 1: a romantic vacation and relight the pilot light. But that's

1843
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:22,080
Speaker 1: actually not what works. What we find is that relationships

1844
01:39:22,120 --> 01:39:26,560
Speaker 1: where people are unhappy or they break up, our relationships

1845
01:39:26,600 --> 01:39:31,360
Speaker 1: where you basically stop investing in them. And so part

1846
01:39:31,400 --> 01:39:33,360
Speaker 1: of the weekly check in ritual, which can be a

1847
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:36,000
Speaker 1: series of questions that you ask your partner, let's say

1848
01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:40,080
Speaker 1: every Sunday. They help you tackle problems before they start.

1849
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:43,479
Speaker 1: I just read a stat that said I found a

1850
01:39:43,479 --> 01:39:45,040
Speaker 1: little hard to believe, but it said, you know, couples

1851
01:39:45,080 --> 01:39:47,120
Speaker 1: weights seven years before they go to a couple of therapy.

1852
01:39:47,200 --> 01:39:49,360
Speaker 1: Couples have problems and problems and problems, and it's to

1853
01:39:49,400 --> 01:39:51,280
Speaker 1: the point where they're about to break up that they

1854
01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:54,519
Speaker 1: finally go. And maybe in some cases it's too late,

1855
01:39:54,840 --> 01:39:57,000
Speaker 1: but if they had gone earlier, they could have said, Yeah,

1856
01:39:57,040 --> 01:40:00,000
Speaker 1: I have a lot of resentment around this, like I, um,

1857
01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:02,080
Speaker 1: I feel like you don't split the child care evenly

1858
01:40:02,120 --> 01:40:04,320
Speaker 1: with me, or I resent the way that you spend

1859
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:06,800
Speaker 1: money and don't save. And so part of the check

1860
01:40:06,840 --> 01:40:10,000
Speaker 1: in ritual is tackling problems before they start by saying,

1861
01:40:10,479 --> 01:40:12,760
Speaker 1: how am I showing up for you? What can I

1862
01:40:12,800 --> 01:40:15,040
Speaker 1: do differently? What do you need from me? And so

1863
01:40:15,080 --> 01:40:19,439
Speaker 1: it's really a mindset of relationships or something to constantly

1864
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:22,840
Speaker 1: be working on, not something that you once a year,

1865
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:27,080
Speaker 1: you know, go on a sexy anniversary date, okay, and

1866
01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:31,120
Speaker 1: evaluating whether to get married or divorce. Yeah, so I

1867
01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:33,439
Speaker 1: have a surprising number. I'm doing this a little bit

1868
01:40:33,520 --> 01:40:36,080
Speaker 1: less now, but for several years I would have these

1869
01:40:36,160 --> 01:40:39,840
Speaker 1: ninety minute decision making conversations with people, and so it

1870
01:40:39,960 --> 01:40:42,479
Speaker 1: was a one time session and they basically would give

1871
01:40:42,520 --> 01:40:44,160
Speaker 1: me the context. I would ask some a bunch of

1872
01:40:44,240 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 1: questions and then we try to figure out what they

1873
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:48,559
Speaker 1: should do next. And some of these were should I

1874
01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:50,840
Speaker 1: get married? And some of these were should we break up?

1875
01:40:51,560 --> 01:40:55,840
Speaker 1: For the should we break up? Once, I asked them

1876
01:40:55,840 --> 01:40:58,519
Speaker 1: a series of questions that helped me understand is the

1877
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:01,960
Speaker 1: problem something that has been there for a while, or

1878
01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:04,679
Speaker 1: is there some external factors? So maybe that person lost

1879
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:06,920
Speaker 1: their jobs, so they're feeling down on themselves, so they

1880
01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:09,280
Speaker 1: lost their sex drive. Is that going to go away

1881
01:41:09,320 --> 01:41:14,479
Speaker 1: at any point? Sometimes it's a situation where you know

1882
01:41:14,560 --> 01:41:17,200
Speaker 1: they haven't been investing in the relationship and they both

1883
01:41:17,200 --> 01:41:18,800
Speaker 1: need to show up for each other more and maybe

1884
01:41:18,800 --> 01:41:21,920
Speaker 1: there's an opportunity there. Um. I have this question that

1885
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:25,040
Speaker 1: I asked people called the wardrobe test, where I say

1886
01:41:25,040 --> 01:41:27,759
Speaker 1: to them, if your partner were a piece of clothing

1887
01:41:28,640 --> 01:41:32,559
Speaker 1: something in your closet, what would that piece of clothing be.

1888
01:41:33,120 --> 01:41:37,120
Speaker 1: Give me your gut reaction? And so sometimes people say,

1889
01:41:37,520 --> 01:41:40,280
Speaker 1: my girlfriend is my favorite pair of pants. I would

1890
01:41:40,280 --> 01:41:42,160
Speaker 1: never have bought them, but I love them and I

1891
01:41:42,200 --> 01:41:45,640
Speaker 1: feel really cool and alternative when I wear them. And

1892
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:48,599
Speaker 1: sometimes they'll say things like my boyfriend is a scrubby

1893
01:41:48,640 --> 01:41:51,400
Speaker 1: sweatshirt that I would wear to the gym, but I

1894
01:41:51,439 --> 01:41:54,240
Speaker 1: hope nobody sees me in. And even though the question

1895
01:41:54,320 --> 01:41:56,599
Speaker 1: is a little silly, that's actually the point. It's almost

1896
01:41:56,600 --> 01:41:58,920
Speaker 1: like this roor shock test where you just say what

1897
01:41:59,040 --> 01:42:01,719
Speaker 1: comes to mind, and that helps me understand where you are.

1898
01:42:02,160 --> 01:42:04,439
Speaker 1: And so we could talk for three hours about the

1899
01:42:04,439 --> 01:42:06,600
Speaker 1: pros and cons of your relationship, but it might not

1900
01:42:06,680 --> 01:42:09,160
Speaker 1: be until that moment where you really say, wow, I've

1901
01:42:09,160 --> 01:42:11,599
Speaker 1: outgrown this, or well, if I could just get out

1902
01:42:11,600 --> 01:42:13,639
Speaker 1: of this without hurting them, I would do it tomorrow.

1903
01:42:14,160 --> 01:42:17,120
Speaker 1: And so I really help people explore what's going on,

1904
01:42:17,479 --> 01:42:20,080
Speaker 1: is it permanent or impermanent, and how do they really

1905
01:42:20,160 --> 01:42:23,639
Speaker 1: feel in terms of should we get married? Sometimes people

1906
01:42:23,680 --> 01:42:26,560
Speaker 1: get married and they haven't even talked about the hard problems.

1907
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:30,639
Speaker 1: They haven't talked about what you know, what are our

1908
01:42:30,720 --> 01:42:34,160
Speaker 1: goals around finances, what happens if one of us gets sick?

1909
01:42:34,320 --> 01:42:36,120
Speaker 1: Where do we want to live long term? And it's

1910
01:42:36,120 --> 01:42:38,360
Speaker 1: like you're so in love and you're feeling so connected,

1911
01:42:38,400 --> 01:42:40,880
Speaker 1: you just assume, Oh, I'm sure Bob feels the same

1912
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:42,880
Speaker 1: way I feel about this. Because we love each other

1913
01:42:42,920 --> 01:42:45,599
Speaker 1: so much, we must agree. And so sometimes it's about

1914
01:42:45,640 --> 01:42:48,400
Speaker 1: having those hard conversations first. And I have a series

1915
01:42:48,400 --> 01:42:50,400
Speaker 1: of questions in my book that people can ask each

1916
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:54,439
Speaker 1: other things like, um, you know, what are our values

1917
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:57,839
Speaker 1: around this? What was the history and your family around fighting,

1918
01:42:57,920 --> 01:43:00,320
Speaker 1: What was history and your family around money? Just having

1919
01:43:00,320 --> 01:43:03,920
Speaker 1: those hard, practical conversations to make sure that you're on

1920
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:08,000
Speaker 1: the same page. Also making sure that this person has

1921
01:43:08,040 --> 01:43:12,479
Speaker 1: the same views that you have on monogamy, fidelity, having

1922
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:14,880
Speaker 1: a family. And it seems so obvious. It's like, who

1923
01:43:14,960 --> 01:43:17,200
Speaker 1: doesn't get married without talking about that? But the answer

1924
01:43:17,320 --> 01:43:21,439
Speaker 1: is many people. And it's really important to have those

1925
01:43:21,439 --> 01:43:25,000
Speaker 1: conversations before you are committed, and I would say especially

1926
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:27,280
Speaker 1: before you have kids, because at that point you're entangled

1927
01:43:27,280 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 1: with that person for the rest of your life. Okay,

1928
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:35,200
Speaker 1: so prior to graduating from college, you talked about your

1929
01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:37,960
Speaker 1: aim connection with this person. In high school, what was

1930
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:43,880
Speaker 1: your dating experience, Yeah, I mean I definitely dated a lot.

1931
01:43:44,040 --> 01:43:45,920
Speaker 1: I feel like I was just one of those people

1932
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:48,040
Speaker 1: that found it really fun to connect with people. I

1933
01:43:48,240 --> 01:43:51,800
Speaker 1: dated people that were nerds. I dated people that were athletes.

1934
01:43:51,880 --> 01:43:54,200
Speaker 1: I dated people that I met online, I dated people

1935
01:43:54,240 --> 01:43:57,599
Speaker 1: I met at work. I feel like I I feel

1936
01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:01,200
Speaker 1: lucky that I've had these different experiences because it makes

1937
01:44:01,200 --> 01:44:03,080
Speaker 1: me feel like I know that my husband is a

1938
01:44:03,120 --> 01:44:06,719
Speaker 1: great match for me, because I've dated all these different

1939
01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:09,519
Speaker 1: permutations of humans, and I'm like, well, I couldn't have

1940
01:44:09,560 --> 01:44:12,240
Speaker 1: predicted it, but this is the one who really makes

1941
01:44:12,280 --> 01:44:16,639
Speaker 1: me happy and keeps things interesting. You went to Harvard.

1942
01:44:16,720 --> 01:44:20,920
Speaker 1: What was that experience? Like? I loved Harvard. It was

1943
01:44:20,960 --> 01:44:22,640
Speaker 1: so fun. I think in some ways it is the

1944
01:44:22,680 --> 01:44:25,080
Speaker 1: happiest four years of my life. I mean, it's just

1945
01:44:25,120 --> 01:44:27,720
Speaker 1: such a good fit for my personality. You live with

1946
01:44:27,760 --> 01:44:31,599
Speaker 1: your best friends, you go to classes, you're constantly learning

1947
01:44:32,200 --> 01:44:35,439
Speaker 1: your writing, and somebody's job is to read your writing

1948
01:44:35,439 --> 01:44:39,280
Speaker 1: and give feedback on it. I thought it was really fun.

1949
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:41,760
Speaker 1: You know, not everybody at Harvard likes to party, but

1950
01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:45,120
Speaker 1: if you're in the group that does, people are excited

1951
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:47,639
Speaker 1: to meet you. And it was just really, really fun.

1952
01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:50,559
Speaker 1: It felt so lucky to get to go there. I

1953
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:53,080
Speaker 1: think it makes you feel like the first eighteen years

1954
01:44:53,120 --> 01:44:55,920
Speaker 1: of your life, we're building towards something. For the four

1955
01:44:56,000 --> 01:44:57,920
Speaker 1: years I was there, I didn't worry that much about

1956
01:44:57,920 --> 01:44:59,880
Speaker 1: the future because I was just like, I am a

1957
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:03,240
Speaker 1: exactly where I should be right now, and so I

1958
01:45:03,320 --> 01:45:05,840
Speaker 1: really loved the experience. Now, when you go to an

1959
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:09,360
Speaker 1: elite institution, a lot of it is what you learn

1960
01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:13,360
Speaker 1: from the people and the relationships you make. Have those

1961
01:45:13,439 --> 01:45:20,559
Speaker 1: relationships paid dividends subsequent to graduation. Absolutely, yeah. I feel

1962
01:45:20,640 --> 01:45:23,759
Speaker 1: like I absolutely invested in relationships while I was there,

1963
01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:27,000
Speaker 1: in part just because I'm super social and I loved,

1964
01:45:27,320 --> 01:45:29,280
Speaker 1: you know, having lunch in the dining hall with one

1965
01:45:29,320 --> 01:45:31,519
Speaker 1: person and dinner in the dining hall with somebody else.

1966
01:45:31,600 --> 01:45:35,400
Speaker 1: But years later, those people are now running media companies

1967
01:45:35,439 --> 01:45:40,320
Speaker 1: and working as publicists and book agents and developing TV

1968
01:45:40,400 --> 01:45:44,479
Speaker 1: shows and you know, working in the White House. And

1969
01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:46,200
Speaker 1: so I feel like a lot of people I know,

1970
01:45:46,280 --> 01:45:49,639
Speaker 1: even if they were tangential connections, have super interesting jobs.

1971
01:45:50,160 --> 01:45:53,120
Speaker 1: And I have had moments, whether it was you know,

1972
01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:56,960
Speaker 1: seeking out healthcare for my husband or you know, just

1973
01:45:57,120 --> 01:45:59,880
Speaker 1: visiting another country where I feel really lucky to have

1974
01:46:00,040 --> 01:46:02,200
Speaker 1: onto school with a bunch of interesting people who are

1975
01:46:02,200 --> 01:46:06,799
Speaker 1: now doing especially interesting stuff. So you graduate from college,

1976
01:46:07,720 --> 01:46:10,639
Speaker 1: what are the moves? How do you end up here? Yeah?

1977
01:46:10,680 --> 01:46:13,880
Speaker 1: I had this vision in my mind that I wanted

1978
01:46:13,920 --> 01:46:16,160
Speaker 1: to live in San Francisco. I had never lived there,

1979
01:46:16,200 --> 01:46:18,760
Speaker 1: but I really loved learning about the sixties. One of

1980
01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:22,559
Speaker 1: my favorite classes in college was about youth culture in

1981
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:25,160
Speaker 1: the nineties sixties, and of course San Francisco was a

1982
01:46:25,200 --> 01:46:30,880
Speaker 1: big player. And so I did a summer internship in

1983
01:46:30,920 --> 01:46:34,160
Speaker 1: San Francisco, and then I only applied to jobs in

1984
01:46:34,200 --> 01:46:37,040
Speaker 1: San Francisco and I ended up working at Google right

1985
01:46:37,080 --> 01:46:41,320
Speaker 1: out of college. And what was that like? Yeah? It

1986
01:46:41,400 --> 01:46:45,760
Speaker 1: was crazy. I had this very surprising first job out

1987
01:46:45,760 --> 01:46:49,600
Speaker 1: of college. I ran the porn Pod, which was a

1988
01:46:50,160 --> 01:46:55,599
Speaker 1: team and we managed the Google advertising, so the Google

1989
01:46:55,640 --> 01:47:03,120
Speaker 1: ads for sex toy operators and porn sites, and um, yeah,

1990
01:47:03,120 --> 01:47:05,439
Speaker 1: it was just really interesting. I definitely don't think my

1991
01:47:05,520 --> 01:47:07,880
Speaker 1: parents expected that. Over Thanksgiving, I would tell them that

1992
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:12,560
Speaker 1: I was putting my Harvard diploma to use helping porn advertisers.

1993
01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:17,080
Speaker 1: And what was your Google history from there? Yeah, so

1994
01:47:17,280 --> 01:47:19,200
Speaker 1: you know, I did that job, but it definitely didn't

1995
01:47:19,240 --> 01:47:22,360
Speaker 1: have a ton of upward trajectory. Google is not investing

1996
01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:25,080
Speaker 1: in porn, and in fact, I think that team doesn't

1997
01:47:25,080 --> 01:47:27,000
Speaker 1: even exist anymore, and the rules have gotten a lot

1998
01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:31,160
Speaker 1: stricter since then. And so I eventually moved into this

1999
01:47:31,240 --> 01:47:37,360
Speaker 1: amazing team called the Irrational Lab, And basically I had

2000
01:47:37,400 --> 01:47:42,120
Speaker 1: an academic counterpart named Dan R. Yelie, who I had

2001
01:47:42,160 --> 01:47:44,160
Speaker 1: been a big fan of before I went to Google.

2002
01:47:44,200 --> 01:47:47,760
Speaker 1: He wrote this amazing book called Predictably Irrational. And Dan

2003
01:47:48,200 --> 01:47:50,800
Speaker 1: is a professor at Duke and he's one of the

2004
01:47:50,840 --> 01:47:54,360
Speaker 1: most interesting creative thinkers that I've ever met. He really

2005
01:47:54,400 --> 01:47:58,160
Speaker 1: just lives life very experimentally, where he's thinking, how can

2006
01:47:58,200 --> 01:48:00,519
Speaker 1: I help as many people as possible, how can I

2007
01:48:00,560 --> 01:48:03,599
Speaker 1: teach my kids how to be great humans? How can

2008
01:48:03,680 --> 01:48:06,679
Speaker 1: I run a lab that does interesting experiments? And so

2009
01:48:06,960 --> 01:48:10,200
Speaker 1: he was working part time at Google and we worked

2010
01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:13,160
Speaker 1: in this lab where we basically applied these very academic

2011
01:48:13,240 --> 01:48:17,599
Speaker 1: lessons of psychology and decision making into Google. Right, so,

2012
01:48:17,640 --> 01:48:20,519
Speaker 1: how do you get employees to go on more walks

2013
01:48:20,560 --> 01:48:22,880
Speaker 1: instead of just sitting in a meeting? How can you

2014
01:48:22,920 --> 01:48:26,639
Speaker 1: get somebody to log in and improve their ad Words accounts?

2015
01:48:26,680 --> 01:48:30,000
Speaker 1: And so it was this amazing opportunity to basically work

2016
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:32,439
Speaker 1: in a lab like grad school, but instead of being

2017
01:48:32,439 --> 01:48:35,040
Speaker 1: in grad school, and getting into debt. I was working

2018
01:48:35,080 --> 01:48:38,080
Speaker 1: at Google and making a living, and so that was

2019
01:48:38,120 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 1: a life changing experience because I learned directly from Dan

2020
01:48:42,200 --> 01:48:44,840
Speaker 1: about this field of behavioral science, the study of how

2021
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:47,960
Speaker 1: we make decisions. And now my work applies a lot

2022
01:48:47,960 --> 01:48:50,759
Speaker 1: of behavioral science to get people to change their behavior

2023
01:48:51,800 --> 01:48:55,760
Speaker 1: and continue from Google to today. Sure, so when I

2024
01:48:55,800 --> 01:48:58,360
Speaker 1: was at Google, I was single, I was online dating.

2025
01:48:58,600 --> 01:49:01,160
Speaker 1: I was swiping men hours a day, and I was like,

2026
01:49:01,240 --> 01:49:04,880
Speaker 1: this whole online dating thing is crazy. I feel lost,

2027
01:49:05,160 --> 01:49:09,400
Speaker 1: the people around me feel lost. Let me create a

2028
01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:12,240
Speaker 1: series where I get to interview experts on this. And

2029
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:15,719
Speaker 1: so I started this talk interview series called Toxic Google

2030
01:49:15,760 --> 01:49:19,439
Speaker 1: Modern Romance, and I invited in some of the foremost experts.

2031
01:49:19,439 --> 01:49:21,920
Speaker 1: So I invited in John and Julie gott mem, I

2032
01:49:21,960 --> 01:49:25,719
Speaker 1: invited in Dan Savage, I invited in as Stare Parrel,

2033
01:49:26,120 --> 01:49:28,280
Speaker 1: And through this I made some of the connections that

2034
01:49:28,439 --> 01:49:31,080
Speaker 1: ended up being really helpful for me later on, but

2035
01:49:31,240 --> 01:49:33,519
Speaker 1: also just helped me see, wow, this is a thing.

2036
01:49:34,120 --> 01:49:36,320
Speaker 1: Thousands of people signed up for the email list in

2037
01:49:36,360 --> 01:49:38,920
Speaker 1: a few days, people were coming to the events. The

2038
01:49:39,040 --> 01:49:41,800
Speaker 1: YouTube videos were getting a ton of views, and that

2039
01:49:41,920 --> 01:49:44,759
Speaker 1: just made me feel like, all right, I'm onto something.

2040
01:49:45,320 --> 01:49:47,960
Speaker 1: People are really struggling and they need help, and I

2041
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:52,080
Speaker 1: can help produce events, produce content whatever to help people

2042
01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:55,240
Speaker 1: answer these questions. And so I ended up leaving Google

2043
01:49:55,240 --> 01:49:59,080
Speaker 1: and going to Airbnb. And I liked working at Airbnb.

2044
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:03,800
Speaker 1: It was really design focused, the company was has an

2045
01:50:03,800 --> 01:50:06,960
Speaker 1: amazing product that I love. The office was beautiful. I

2046
01:50:07,000 --> 01:50:09,640
Speaker 1: got to know all three of the founders. It was

2047
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:12,160
Speaker 1: really fun to be there. But I just kept saying

2048
01:50:12,200 --> 01:50:15,120
Speaker 1: to myself, I have this passion for dating and relationships,

2049
01:50:15,640 --> 01:50:19,439
Speaker 1: and let me really see what I can do to

2050
01:50:19,640 --> 01:50:24,040
Speaker 1: invest in that. And I had this freak accident where

2051
01:50:24,120 --> 01:50:27,240
Speaker 1: I was walking in Golden Gate Park and a tree

2052
01:50:27,320 --> 01:50:30,599
Speaker 1: fell on me and it was a huge eucalyptus tree.

2053
01:50:30,760 --> 01:50:35,080
Speaker 1: Several people each year die from accidents involving trees falling

2054
01:50:35,080 --> 01:50:38,600
Speaker 1: on them in Golden Gate Park, and I was I

2055
01:50:38,680 --> 01:50:40,960
Speaker 1: missed work for a few weeks. It was really really scary,

2056
01:50:41,520 --> 01:50:43,719
Speaker 1: and I think through that I was just like, holy

2057
01:50:43,720 --> 01:50:47,160
Speaker 1: sh it, life is short. Nobody just comes up to

2058
01:50:47,200 --> 01:50:48,840
Speaker 1: you and says now is the time to quit your

2059
01:50:48,920 --> 01:50:51,639
Speaker 1: job and pursue your dreams. And I just felt like

2060
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:55,400
Speaker 1: all right, like this is what I need to take

2061
01:50:55,439 --> 01:50:57,280
Speaker 1: a risk, and that was the year that I left

2062
01:50:57,320 --> 01:51:01,360
Speaker 1: Airbnb and started doing this stuff full time. So what

2063
01:51:01,439 --> 01:51:04,479
Speaker 1: was your injury and if you're fully recovered, Yeah, I

2064
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:07,360
Speaker 1: mean I had some back issues. I have a kind

2065
01:51:07,360 --> 01:51:09,920
Speaker 1: of gnarly scar on my leg um. But it was

2066
01:51:09,960 --> 01:51:12,439
Speaker 1: one of those things where a police officer happened to

2067
01:51:12,479 --> 01:51:15,519
Speaker 1: observe it was like a few inches in any one

2068
01:51:15,560 --> 01:51:18,160
Speaker 1: direction and you would have been gone. And so the

2069
01:51:18,240 --> 01:51:21,000
Speaker 1: injuries were tough, but it was more the brush with

2070
01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:23,880
Speaker 1: death that I think really lit a fire under me

2071
01:51:23,960 --> 01:51:26,720
Speaker 1: and made me feel like you're never gonna wake up

2072
01:51:26,840 --> 01:51:28,760
Speaker 1: one day and be ready to do your own thing.

2073
01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:32,200
Speaker 1: It's always going to be scary, and it just felt

2074
01:51:32,280 --> 01:51:35,920
Speaker 1: like this opportunity to take a risk. And then every

2075
01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:39,800
Speaker 1: year on the anniversary of that accident, I have a

2076
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:43,680
Speaker 1: party called an obituary party, where I make people come

2077
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:47,640
Speaker 1: over and write their obituaries. And in doing that exercise,

2078
01:51:47,720 --> 01:51:50,760
Speaker 1: it really helped me understand what I wanted to be

2079
01:51:50,840 --> 01:51:53,000
Speaker 1: remembered for in the legacy I wanted to leave, and

2080
01:51:53,040 --> 01:51:56,120
Speaker 1: that also helped me quit my job. So do you

2081
01:51:56,120 --> 01:51:59,120
Speaker 1: go back to Golden Gate Park? I do, but I

2082
01:51:59,120 --> 01:52:01,920
Speaker 1: would say, you know, I live there's a eucalyptus tree

2083
01:52:02,200 --> 01:52:05,080
Speaker 1: near where I live, and I still feel a little

2084
01:52:05,080 --> 01:52:09,759
Speaker 1: bit of panic when when I'm under certain huge treets. Okay,

2085
01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:13,880
Speaker 1: your parents divorced when you were in high school. How

2086
01:52:13,880 --> 01:52:18,360
Speaker 1: did that affect your view of relationships? I think about

2087
01:52:18,400 --> 01:52:22,280
Speaker 1: that a lot. And what I believe is that when

2088
01:52:22,280 --> 01:52:25,160
Speaker 1: my parents got divorced, it was very surprising to me,

2089
01:52:25,920 --> 01:52:30,439
Speaker 1: and so I stopped taking relationships for granted and I

2090
01:52:30,479 --> 01:52:33,800
Speaker 1: felt like, Okay, this happily ever after thing, it's not

2091
01:52:33,880 --> 01:52:36,400
Speaker 1: a guarantee. Just because you get married doesn't mean that

2092
01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:40,559
Speaker 1: you stay married. And so it really encouraged me to

2093
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:44,719
Speaker 1: take an anegal analytical look at relationships and say, what's

2094
01:52:44,720 --> 01:52:47,240
Speaker 1: happening in these good ones, what's happening in these bad ones?

2095
01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:49,720
Speaker 1: How do you choose the right person? How do you

2096
01:52:49,920 --> 01:52:52,000
Speaker 1: date enough people that you know who's out there, but

2097
01:52:52,120 --> 01:52:55,040
Speaker 1: not date so many people that you end up never

2098
01:52:55,120 --> 01:52:57,679
Speaker 1: finding somebody? And so I think it was just this

2099
01:52:58,400 --> 01:53:01,439
Speaker 1: kind of Spider Man getting bitten by the spider moment

2100
01:53:01,600 --> 01:53:05,360
Speaker 1: where it just really made me feel like this is

2101
01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:09,880
Speaker 1: something that I want to learn more about. It gave

2102
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:13,639
Speaker 1: me this curiosity, and it gave me this almost humbling

2103
01:53:13,720 --> 01:53:18,960
Speaker 1: feeling of you can't take it for granted. Okay, So

2104
01:53:19,280 --> 01:53:22,200
Speaker 1: what would it take you to get divorced in my

2105
01:53:22,280 --> 01:53:27,160
Speaker 1: current relationship? Yeah, yeah, it's funny. My husband likes a

2106
01:53:27,240 --> 01:53:29,839
Speaker 1: joke that I'm not somebody he'd want to be divorced

2107
01:53:29,880 --> 01:53:35,240
Speaker 1: from because I don't know. I think he thinks I would.

2108
01:53:35,320 --> 01:53:40,439
Speaker 1: I would be tough in the in the divorce litigation moment. Okay,

2109
01:53:40,479 --> 01:53:44,280
Speaker 1: well you live in California's anyway, unless somebody, unless somebody

2110
01:53:44,280 --> 01:53:47,040
Speaker 1: brought assets to the marriage. But it, yeah, it is.

2111
01:53:47,160 --> 01:53:50,240
Speaker 1: It is funny that he thinks I'm scary in that regard.

2112
01:53:50,800 --> 01:53:54,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been with my husband for seven years.

2113
01:53:55,000 --> 01:53:58,640
Speaker 1: We've definitely had super strong moments and moments where we're disconnected.

2114
01:53:59,120 --> 01:54:02,200
Speaker 1: I think if I had to imagine a world where

2115
01:54:02,200 --> 01:54:05,599
Speaker 1: we got divorced, it would be because we don't invest

2116
01:54:05,680 --> 01:54:07,960
Speaker 1: time in each other like we spend. You know, we're

2117
01:54:07,960 --> 01:54:10,479
Speaker 1: in the same room, but we're on our phones or

2118
01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:13,240
Speaker 1: we talk, but we only talk about logistics. And so

2119
01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:16,519
Speaker 1: I think it's really about practicing what I preach and

2120
01:54:16,600 --> 01:54:21,120
Speaker 1: investing that daily effort. Okay, So reading your book, you know,

2121
01:54:21,160 --> 01:54:25,559
Speaker 1: this Sunday night check in certainly hit me and needle said,

2122
01:54:25,600 --> 01:54:29,040
Speaker 1: I don't do that. And you talk about your husband

2123
01:54:29,120 --> 01:54:34,240
Speaker 1: being fearful about a divorce with you, it seems you're

2124
01:54:34,280 --> 01:54:39,240
Speaker 1: certainly very verbal, personable, and intelligent. The question we become

2125
01:54:40,760 --> 01:54:43,440
Speaker 1: people might say, well, is she controlling him in the

2126
01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:46,120
Speaker 1: relationship or does he pushed back and say I don't

2127
01:54:46,160 --> 01:54:48,800
Speaker 1: want to do this or I don't want to do that. Oh,

2128
01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:52,080
Speaker 1: my husband is extremely stubborn and he does not let

2129
01:54:52,120 --> 01:54:54,200
Speaker 1: me get away with anything. That's kind of what I

2130
01:54:54,240 --> 01:54:57,320
Speaker 1: was saying before about keeps me saying and drives me crazy.

2131
01:54:57,880 --> 01:55:01,240
Speaker 1: Sometimes I wish he was more appliable and he would say, sure,

2132
01:55:01,280 --> 01:55:04,800
Speaker 1: whatever you want, but that's not his personality. He's extremely

2133
01:55:04,840 --> 01:55:09,760
Speaker 1: intelligent and extremely skeptical, and he does not do anything

2134
01:55:09,920 --> 01:55:12,720
Speaker 1: unless he's bought into the value of it. And so

2135
01:55:13,400 --> 01:55:15,800
Speaker 1: he's I'm lucky in that he lets me talk about

2136
01:55:15,880 --> 01:55:17,760
Speaker 1: him on podcasts like this and talk about him in

2137
01:55:17,760 --> 01:55:20,880
Speaker 1: my book, But he really only participates in these relationship

2138
01:55:20,960 --> 01:55:25,280
Speaker 1: things because he thinks that there's value in them. Okay,

2139
01:55:25,680 --> 01:55:28,520
Speaker 1: So another big thing you talk about, and you referenced

2140
01:55:28,600 --> 01:55:33,720
Speaker 1: it earlier, is don't expect your partner to provide to

2141
01:55:33,840 --> 01:55:36,560
Speaker 1: check everything in the list. So you talk about having

2142
01:55:36,600 --> 01:55:41,600
Speaker 1: activity partners. So okay, I'll talk about my own relationship.

2143
01:55:42,640 --> 01:55:44,480
Speaker 1: You know, I've been to a lot of exotic places.

2144
01:55:44,520 --> 01:55:46,840
Speaker 1: I'd like to go more. There's certain ones that my

2145
01:55:46,920 --> 01:55:49,160
Speaker 1: girlfriend says she doesn't want to go there. She doesn't

2146
01:55:49,200 --> 01:55:51,920
Speaker 1: want to go to Shanghai, Beijing. I'd really I have

2147
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:53,920
Speaker 1: not been there. I've only been to Hong Kong and China.

2148
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:57,240
Speaker 1: So do I just say hey, get somebody else to go,

2149
01:55:58,120 --> 01:56:00,840
Speaker 1: or do I say go? Because usually when you do go,

2150
01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:06,280
Speaker 1: you end up having a good time. Yeah? So um,

2151
01:56:06,360 --> 01:56:09,280
Speaker 1: I talked about this idea of other significance others, and

2152
01:56:09,360 --> 01:56:11,880
Speaker 1: this is an idea from Eli Finkel and Elaine Chung.

2153
01:56:11,920 --> 01:56:14,360
Speaker 1: And the idea is that in modern society, we expect

2154
01:56:14,400 --> 01:56:16,440
Speaker 1: to get our needs met by every We expect to

2155
01:56:16,440 --> 01:56:18,280
Speaker 1: get all of our needs met by one person. And

2156
01:56:18,320 --> 01:56:20,960
Speaker 1: we think you're going to be my lover and my

2157
01:56:21,040 --> 01:56:25,000
Speaker 1: best friend and my co parent and my business coach

2158
01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:27,600
Speaker 1: and my tennis partner. And it puts way too much

2159
01:56:27,640 --> 01:56:29,960
Speaker 1: pressure on one person, and that person is unlikely be

2160
01:56:30,000 --> 01:56:32,200
Speaker 1: able to meet all those needs. And so how can

2161
01:56:32,240 --> 01:56:35,280
Speaker 1: you have these o s os, these other significant others

2162
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:38,200
Speaker 1: that play different roles in your life. And so it

2163
01:56:38,280 --> 01:56:40,760
Speaker 1: might be that with your girlfriend, she might have an

2164
01:56:40,760 --> 01:56:44,320
Speaker 1: OsO who's her travel buddy, and that might work out fine.

2165
01:56:44,680 --> 01:56:48,080
Speaker 1: But if you feel like well, you just might be

2166
01:56:48,200 --> 01:56:50,560
Speaker 1: stubborn about going. But once you go, you have a

2167
01:56:50,560 --> 01:56:52,760
Speaker 1: good time, then that's up to you. And so I

2168
01:56:52,760 --> 01:56:55,360
Speaker 1: think it's less important like, you know, do you travel

2169
01:56:55,440 --> 01:56:57,760
Speaker 1: with her or not? And more this big idea of

2170
01:56:57,840 --> 01:57:01,360
Speaker 1: we should be in grain in a community where we

2171
01:57:01,400 --> 01:57:03,720
Speaker 1: have different people that we go to for different things,

2172
01:57:04,080 --> 01:57:05,880
Speaker 1: and that we take some of the pressure off our

2173
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:08,000
Speaker 1: relationship and we still invest in it, but we don't

2174
01:57:08,000 --> 01:57:13,160
Speaker 1: expect our partner to be our everything. And what about jealousy? Yeah,

2175
01:57:13,360 --> 01:57:14,960
Speaker 1: you know, I live in the Bay Area and there's

2176
01:57:14,960 --> 01:57:20,520
Speaker 1: a huge movement around relationship anarchy and ethical nonmonogamy. And

2177
01:57:20,520 --> 01:57:24,080
Speaker 1: one of the big ideas in ethical nonmonogamy is that

2178
01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:27,120
Speaker 1: instead of feeling jealous when your partners with somebody else,

2179
01:57:27,160 --> 01:57:30,880
Speaker 1: you actually feel what's called compulsion, which is joy for

2180
01:57:31,000 --> 01:57:35,200
Speaker 1: them at their pleasure. And so I'm in a monogamous relationship,

2181
01:57:35,240 --> 01:57:39,480
Speaker 1: but I have clients and friends and acquaintances, etcetera that

2182
01:57:40,200 --> 01:57:44,200
Speaker 1: are in these polyamorous or ethical nonmonogamy relationships and it's

2183
01:57:44,240 --> 01:57:47,400
Speaker 1: been really amazing to see them tackle jealousy, and so

2184
01:57:47,480 --> 01:57:50,640
Speaker 1: I would say in general, sometimes jealousy is helpful. It's

2185
01:57:50,680 --> 01:57:52,880
Speaker 1: a sign of what we want. I'm jealous of you

2186
01:57:53,040 --> 01:57:55,160
Speaker 1: because you've achieved this, and that's a sign for me

2187
01:57:55,240 --> 01:57:58,360
Speaker 1: that I want to achieve that. But other times, in relationships,

2188
01:57:58,400 --> 01:58:02,000
Speaker 1: I think it's a sign of insecurity. So okay, let's

2189
01:58:02,040 --> 01:58:06,520
Speaker 1: choose the example of the guy who likes to be

2190
01:58:06,560 --> 01:58:09,200
Speaker 1: out late at night for his business and the woman

2191
01:58:09,240 --> 01:58:12,960
Speaker 1: wants to be in bed at eleven PM. Let's just

2192
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:16,160
Speaker 1: assume they do things separately. The guy is going to

2193
01:58:16,240 --> 01:58:19,080
Speaker 1: be meeting a lot of people. How does the person

2194
01:58:19,120 --> 01:58:22,240
Speaker 1: who goes to bed at eleven feel comfortable that these

2195
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:24,560
Speaker 1: he's not going to meet somebody and leave her because

2196
01:58:24,560 --> 01:58:28,280
Speaker 1: this person is closer to his lifestyle. Yeah. I think

2197
01:58:28,320 --> 01:58:30,280
Speaker 1: there's a few levels there. So one is for that

2198
01:58:30,320 --> 01:58:34,000
Speaker 1: person to understand that they're not making a sacrifice by

2199
01:58:34,040 --> 01:58:35,760
Speaker 1: being with their partner who wants to go to bed

2200
01:58:35,760 --> 01:58:37,800
Speaker 1: at eleven. That partner is a great fit for them

2201
01:58:38,040 --> 01:58:40,600
Speaker 1: and helps them build a balance life, and so they're

2202
01:58:40,640 --> 01:58:43,520
Speaker 1: not settling for that person while going out and hoping

2203
01:58:43,560 --> 01:58:46,600
Speaker 1: to find somebody else at two am, and I think

2204
01:58:46,640 --> 01:58:50,640
Speaker 1: that in situations like that, you have to trust your partner.

2205
01:58:50,680 --> 01:58:52,400
Speaker 1: I feel like one of the things I love most

2206
01:58:52,440 --> 01:58:56,360
Speaker 1: about my husband is that I really really trust him.

2207
01:58:56,560 --> 01:58:59,400
Speaker 1: He's extremely honest, even sometimes when I don't want him

2208
01:58:59,440 --> 01:59:02,320
Speaker 1: to be, and I really trust his behavior. We each

2209
01:59:02,360 --> 01:59:06,960
Speaker 1: have plenty of friends of the opposite sex, and it's

2210
01:59:06,960 --> 01:59:08,960
Speaker 1: not a problem for us. And so I would say,

2211
01:59:09,080 --> 01:59:11,720
Speaker 1: if you're really worried about your partner going out and

2212
01:59:11,760 --> 01:59:15,120
Speaker 1: meeting other people, then that's a sign of some fundamental

2213
01:59:15,200 --> 01:59:18,120
Speaker 1: insecurity that needs to be tackled, and not just you

2214
01:59:18,240 --> 01:59:19,800
Speaker 1: being like, well, I'm going to force myself to go

2215
01:59:19,840 --> 01:59:21,960
Speaker 1: out because they might meet someone else, Like you can

2216
01:59:22,000 --> 01:59:23,680
Speaker 1: meet someone in an app, you can meet someone on

2217
01:59:23,720 --> 01:59:26,920
Speaker 1: the street. Like. You can't control somebody's behavior. What you

2218
01:59:27,000 --> 01:59:29,680
Speaker 1: can try to work on is a foundation of trust

2219
01:59:29,760 --> 01:59:33,160
Speaker 1: between the two of you. Now, your husband, you were

2220
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:35,840
Speaker 1: involved with him and after a number of years he

2221
01:59:35,960 --> 01:59:39,000
Speaker 1: got cancer and had to have essentially half of his

2222
01:59:39,120 --> 01:59:42,920
Speaker 1: leg removed. You know what was that like? And did

2223
01:59:42,920 --> 01:59:47,120
Speaker 1: you would ever question your involvement with him? Yeah? I

2224
01:59:47,120 --> 01:59:50,280
Speaker 1: mean what was it like? It was fucking crazy. I mean,

2225
01:59:51,040 --> 01:59:53,280
Speaker 1: my husband is one of the healthiest people I've ever met.

2226
01:59:53,400 --> 01:59:56,880
Speaker 1: He's vegan, he works out every day, he reads books

2227
01:59:56,880 --> 01:59:59,720
Speaker 1: called how to Not Die. He's very very smart, and

2228
01:59:59,720 --> 02:00:03,640
Speaker 1: he's focused on longevity and really just interested in that

2229
02:00:03,720 --> 02:00:05,680
Speaker 1: kind of research. And so this was just a freak

2230
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:09,280
Speaker 1: thing where he got bone cancer. And another reason it

2231
02:00:09,320 --> 02:00:13,040
Speaker 1: was so crazy is because he really started getting his

2232
02:00:13,080 --> 02:00:17,400
Speaker 1: diagnosis in March, just as the pandemic was starting, and

2233
02:00:17,440 --> 02:00:19,000
Speaker 1: so when he was going to get the m r I,

2234
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:22,760
Speaker 1: I was like, don't go to a medical institution. That's crazy.

2235
02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:25,000
Speaker 1: You could get COVID right now. And so luckily he

2236
02:00:25,040 --> 02:00:27,320
Speaker 1: ignored me and got the m r I. But we

2237
02:00:27,440 --> 02:00:31,120
Speaker 1: just couldn't believe the diagnosis because imagining imagine a really

2238
02:00:31,160 --> 02:00:33,480
Speaker 1: healthy person in their early thirties. You just don't think

2239
02:00:33,480 --> 02:00:36,880
Speaker 1: it's going to be cancer. In terms of the amputation,

2240
02:00:37,040 --> 02:00:41,320
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very slow process of recovery. It

2241
02:00:41,360 --> 02:00:46,640
Speaker 1: obviously changes your body forever um and he's had some

2242
02:00:46,720 --> 02:00:51,320
Speaker 1: other major surgeries as well. But I never questioned the relationship.

2243
02:00:51,600 --> 02:00:55,680
Speaker 1: I felt like I felt even more serious about him.

2244
02:00:55,680 --> 02:00:58,120
Speaker 1: I was like, I can really stand up and support him.

2245
02:00:58,200 --> 02:01:01,360
Speaker 1: I felt very capable. I think I'm good in emergencies.

2246
02:01:01,520 --> 02:01:04,800
Speaker 1: We have an amazing community that supported us. We had

2247
02:01:04,800 --> 02:01:07,920
Speaker 1: our friends throw us a last minute wedding. Um we

2248
02:01:08,000 --> 02:01:11,880
Speaker 1: got married in Golden Gate Park the day before his amputation.

2249
02:01:12,000 --> 02:01:13,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like it just made us more

2250
02:01:13,800 --> 02:01:16,600
Speaker 1: serious about each other. And it makes me feel like

2251
02:01:16,680 --> 02:01:19,240
Speaker 1: whatever comes down the road, we know that we can

2252
02:01:19,280 --> 02:01:23,040
Speaker 1: handle it because we've handled such a freak challenging thing.

2253
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:26,760
Speaker 1: Now you live what in what the New York Times

2254
02:01:26,880 --> 02:01:32,320
Speaker 1: labeled a commune? What do you what's your actual living environment? Yeah,

2255
02:01:32,360 --> 02:01:34,120
Speaker 1: I mean you could call it a commune. They called

2256
02:01:34,120 --> 02:01:36,640
Speaker 1: it a luxury commune, which now the people I live

2257
02:01:36,720 --> 02:01:39,440
Speaker 1: with quote all the time as a joke because this

2258
02:01:39,480 --> 02:01:42,720
Speaker 1: place is not luxury. I mean it's nice and we

2259
02:01:42,760 --> 02:01:45,280
Speaker 1: love living here, but I don't think you would call

2260
02:01:45,320 --> 02:01:49,480
Speaker 1: it luxury. Basically, during the pandemic, when my husband got

2261
02:01:49,480 --> 02:01:52,320
Speaker 1: this diagnosis, I was like, this sucks. I don't know

2262
02:01:52,360 --> 02:01:55,080
Speaker 1: how to do this alone. He's spending three out of

2263
02:01:55,120 --> 02:01:58,720
Speaker 1: five weeks in the hospital. I'm coming home to Pepperoni

2264
02:01:58,760 --> 02:02:02,160
Speaker 1: pizza on the floor, or this sucks. I I don't

2265
02:02:02,200 --> 02:02:04,240
Speaker 1: want to do this by myself. And so our friends

2266
02:02:04,280 --> 02:02:09,080
Speaker 1: had bought and developed this communal living situation in Oakland,

2267
02:02:09,760 --> 02:02:12,040
Speaker 1: and we visited them for dinner one night, and I

2268
02:02:12,120 --> 02:02:15,080
Speaker 1: was like, they're having the time of their lives. They're

2269
02:02:15,080 --> 02:02:17,760
Speaker 1: doing Camp Radish. This is the way to do the pandemic.

2270
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:21,080
Speaker 1: And so they luckily had a one bedroom apartment open

2271
02:02:21,200 --> 02:02:24,240
Speaker 1: for us. We moved in a few weeks later, and

2272
02:02:24,560 --> 02:02:27,120
Speaker 1: I think it's the best thing in my life. I mean,

2273
02:02:27,200 --> 02:02:29,879
Speaker 1: I have dinner with friends every night. It's like living

2274
02:02:30,120 --> 02:02:36,600
Speaker 1: on a group trip. Everyone is creative, generous, open minded, interesting.

2275
02:02:36,680 --> 02:02:39,120
Speaker 1: It's really a group of people that I think are

2276
02:02:39,160 --> 02:02:44,080
Speaker 1: are living in a really joyful way. Okay, is this

2277
02:02:44,160 --> 02:02:47,600
Speaker 1: one of a kind or there are multiple Radishes. There's

2278
02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:50,160
Speaker 1: only one place called Radish, but we're part of a

2279
02:02:50,160 --> 02:02:54,680
Speaker 1: community of other communal living situations and it's somewhat popular

2280
02:02:54,720 --> 02:02:56,880
Speaker 1: in the Bay Area. I think once you start tapping

2281
02:02:56,920 --> 02:03:00,480
Speaker 1: into the network, there's other ones. And some are moral tternatives,

2282
02:03:00,480 --> 02:03:02,800
Speaker 1: some are less alternatives. Some have people in their twenties,

2283
02:03:02,840 --> 02:03:05,600
Speaker 1: some have people with kids, and I would say ours

2284
02:03:05,640 --> 02:03:07,880
Speaker 1: is in the middle. It's starting to have its first kids.

2285
02:03:07,920 --> 02:03:10,800
Speaker 1: But it's just it's really functional. I mean, there's not

2286
02:03:10,840 --> 02:03:13,080
Speaker 1: a lot of drama. We have a house meeting once

2287
02:03:13,120 --> 02:03:18,440
Speaker 1: a month. We share all of our food and cooking expenses,

2288
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:22,320
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's just a really functional, happy place to live. Okay,

2289
02:03:22,360 --> 02:03:25,680
Speaker 1: So how big a building is in So there's one

2290
02:03:25,800 --> 02:03:32,440
Speaker 1: building with six bedrooms, there's another unit that has four apartments,

2291
02:03:32,680 --> 02:03:37,760
Speaker 1: and then there's um a building that has a communal

2292
02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:40,520
Speaker 1: kitchen and a communal living room. But then people are

2293
02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:44,320
Speaker 1: buying the houses next door, so it seems to be growing. Okay,

2294
02:03:44,800 --> 02:03:50,440
Speaker 1: So every night it's dinner together. Yeah, there's seven thirty dinner.

2295
02:03:50,480 --> 02:03:53,160
Speaker 1: It's absolutely not required. If you didn't come because you

2296
02:03:53,200 --> 02:03:55,160
Speaker 1: were traveling or you just didn't feel like being with

2297
02:03:55,200 --> 02:03:57,320
Speaker 1: the group, that would be fine. There's no expectation. But

2298
02:03:57,760 --> 02:03:59,520
Speaker 1: people we happen to have a lot of people right

2299
02:03:59,560 --> 02:04:02,200
Speaker 1: now who are either uh there's one guy who's a

2300
02:04:02,200 --> 02:04:05,080
Speaker 1: professional chef. There's people who are just really into cooking.

2301
02:04:05,200 --> 02:04:08,240
Speaker 1: And you know, it turns out cooking for fourteen people

2302
02:04:08,680 --> 02:04:13,200
Speaker 1: every fourteen days is a lot more fun and easier

2303
02:04:13,240 --> 02:04:17,240
Speaker 1: than cooking for yourself every day. So if everybody comes,

2304
02:04:17,240 --> 02:04:21,520
Speaker 1: it's fourteen people. Yeah, it's about that. As I was saying,

2305
02:04:21,560 --> 02:04:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, some people have gotten pregnant and bought houses

2306
02:04:24,160 --> 02:04:26,520
Speaker 1: nearby and they still come over a lot. And what

2307
02:04:26,560 --> 02:04:28,240
Speaker 1: we you know, it's called Radish, and we have these

2308
02:04:28,240 --> 02:04:30,680
Speaker 1: people called Ratillites that are kind of satellite members of

2309
02:04:30,720 --> 02:04:33,280
Speaker 1: the community. And sometimes people have guests and it can

2310
02:04:33,320 --> 02:04:35,640
Speaker 1: be you know, it could be as small as five

2311
02:04:35,720 --> 02:04:38,680
Speaker 1: or maybe as much as twenty people. And you own

2312
02:04:38,720 --> 02:04:43,120
Speaker 1: your unit, No, we just rent you rent. That Is

2313
02:04:43,120 --> 02:04:47,080
Speaker 1: it comparable to the price of a one bedroom elsewhere? Yeah,

2314
02:04:47,120 --> 02:04:49,800
Speaker 1: I think you know, I haven't looked for an apartment

2315
02:04:49,800 --> 02:04:52,080
Speaker 1: in a while, and I know stuff has changed during

2316
02:04:52,120 --> 02:04:55,880
Speaker 1: the pandemic. But I would say people are here not

2317
02:04:55,960 --> 02:04:59,560
Speaker 1: to live extravagantly and not to live cheaply. They're basically

2318
02:04:59,560 --> 02:05:01,960
Speaker 1: here because they feel like this is a better way

2319
02:05:02,000 --> 02:05:05,880
Speaker 1: to live. And so it's not about eating ramen and

2320
02:05:05,920 --> 02:05:08,840
Speaker 1: saving money. It's really about like life is better when

2321
02:05:08,840 --> 02:05:12,080
Speaker 1: you live amount among people that you respect and admire

2322
02:05:12,120 --> 02:05:15,440
Speaker 1: and have fun with. Well, somebody cooks dinner, and let's

2323
02:05:15,440 --> 02:05:17,720
Speaker 1: say I don't want to eat carbs or I don't

2324
02:05:17,720 --> 02:05:19,920
Speaker 1: know more, I don't need meat. What what goes on there?

2325
02:05:20,480 --> 02:05:24,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you can. I I don't think

2326
02:05:24,080 --> 02:05:26,280
Speaker 1: this will surprise you. But there's a long list of

2327
02:05:26,320 --> 02:05:29,880
Speaker 1: different people's eating restrictions. And so there's this person is

2328
02:05:29,920 --> 02:05:33,800
Speaker 1: low carb, this person's vegan, this person is pscytarian, this

2329
02:05:33,880 --> 02:05:38,320
Speaker 1: person is trying to be dairy free, And in general

2330
02:05:38,360 --> 02:05:40,520
Speaker 1: people just accommodate it and it's not that hard. It's

2331
02:05:40,520 --> 02:05:43,000
Speaker 1: like put the cheese on the salad on the side

2332
02:05:43,080 --> 02:05:46,720
Speaker 1: and make one vegan dish. And some people are really

2333
02:05:46,720 --> 02:05:49,640
Speaker 1: experienced that cooking and some people are not as experienced.

2334
02:05:49,640 --> 02:05:54,200
Speaker 1: But in general, people just try to accommodate different food requirements. Okay,

2335
02:05:54,240 --> 02:05:56,960
Speaker 1: if I go to dinner at seven thirty, how long

2336
02:05:57,000 --> 02:06:01,240
Speaker 1: I'm mighty sit there bullshitting? It depends. I mean, I

2337
02:06:01,280 --> 02:06:04,360
Speaker 1: love bullshitting. I feel like I wake up and I'm happy,

2338
02:06:04,560 --> 02:06:06,560
Speaker 1: and then I sort of crash around three, and then

2339
02:06:06,560 --> 02:06:09,760
Speaker 1: I get in a worse and worse mood until seven thirty,

2340
02:06:09,920 --> 02:06:12,320
Speaker 1: and then I have this huge boost of positivity and

2341
02:06:12,440 --> 02:06:15,000
Speaker 1: energy and I might, you know, go and eat dinner

2342
02:06:15,040 --> 02:06:17,040
Speaker 1: from seven thirty to eight thirty and then do dishes

2343
02:06:17,080 --> 02:06:19,720
Speaker 1: with people till nine and come back to my apartment.

2344
02:06:19,840 --> 02:06:23,040
Speaker 1: I might put on a TV show and watch Sometimes

2345
02:06:23,040 --> 02:06:26,280
Speaker 1: we just listen to music and hang out. It's it's

2346
02:06:26,320 --> 02:06:31,720
Speaker 1: really like this dinner party that you get to attend

2347
02:06:31,760 --> 02:06:35,360
Speaker 1: every night. If you're around and you want to go. Okay,

2348
02:06:35,400 --> 02:06:39,360
Speaker 1: any people you don't like no. I actually am surprised.

2349
02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:42,400
Speaker 1: I mean, we have a pretty strict policy where people

2350
02:06:42,400 --> 02:06:44,960
Speaker 1: are sub letters and then we kind of get to

2351
02:06:44,960 --> 02:06:46,880
Speaker 1: know them for two months and figure it out. But

2352
02:06:47,000 --> 02:06:49,560
Speaker 1: we're lucky enough that we have so many people that

2353
02:06:49,600 --> 02:06:51,600
Speaker 1: want to live here that we really get to pick

2354
02:06:51,640 --> 02:06:54,600
Speaker 1: and shoes. And most people have been living here since

2355
02:06:54,640 --> 02:06:57,880
Speaker 1: before me, so there's very little turnover. And I think

2356
02:06:57,960 --> 02:07:01,440
Speaker 1: it's basically like an an opt in self selection thing.

2357
02:07:01,520 --> 02:07:03,640
Speaker 1: Like if you're someone who's going to get so stressed

2358
02:07:03,640 --> 02:07:05,880
Speaker 1: that somebody used your knife in the kitchen, you're probably

2359
02:07:05,880 --> 02:07:08,160
Speaker 1: not a good fit and you probably will choose not

2360
02:07:08,240 --> 02:07:10,800
Speaker 1: to stay. And what if I'm working late and I

2361
02:07:10,920 --> 02:07:13,760
Speaker 1: come home at nine I missed dinner, Yeah, you would

2362
02:07:13,800 --> 02:07:16,120
Speaker 1: just go to the leftovers fridge or ask somebody to

2363
02:07:16,160 --> 02:07:18,880
Speaker 1: make you a plate, or you ate dinner before you

2364
02:07:18,920 --> 02:07:21,280
Speaker 1: got home. Okay, but let's say I want to buy

2365
02:07:21,320 --> 02:07:25,120
Speaker 1: my own personal crap, whether it be yogurt chips or whatever,

2366
02:07:25,160 --> 02:07:28,320
Speaker 1: when I keep those in my own apartment. Um, the

2367
02:07:28,400 --> 02:07:30,680
Speaker 1: cool thing is that you're paying into a food system,

2368
02:07:30,720 --> 02:07:33,480
Speaker 1: so you would just we actually have this system where

2369
02:07:33,520 --> 02:07:35,760
Speaker 1: you know, somebody's in charge of finances, somebody's in charge

2370
02:07:35,800 --> 02:07:38,200
Speaker 1: of ordering the food, and we basically have a slack

2371
02:07:38,280 --> 02:07:40,840
Speaker 1: channel called make It Appear, where you would put the

2372
02:07:40,880 --> 02:07:42,800
Speaker 1: name of the potato chips that you want and put

2373
02:07:42,840 --> 02:07:44,640
Speaker 1: it on there, and it would get ordered for you

2374
02:07:44,680 --> 02:07:46,440
Speaker 1: and a few days later it would arrive. And so

2375
02:07:46,520 --> 02:07:48,680
Speaker 1: if you really felt strongly that you wanted to pay

2376
02:07:48,720 --> 02:07:50,280
Speaker 1: for your own chips and keep it in your room,

2377
02:07:50,360 --> 02:07:53,120
Speaker 1: you could, But that's pretty rare. People are just like

2378
02:07:53,400 --> 02:07:55,840
Speaker 1: we have an abundance mindset. I get the groceries I

2379
02:07:55,920 --> 02:07:58,880
Speaker 1: want and if they get finished, then I'll just order

2380
02:07:58,920 --> 02:08:03,680
Speaker 1: them again. And so how many activities are there beyond dinner?

2381
02:08:04,680 --> 02:08:07,120
Speaker 1: It depends. We have these things called rad talks where

2382
02:08:07,160 --> 02:08:10,920
Speaker 1: people give a short lecture about something. So somebody works

2383
02:08:10,920 --> 02:08:13,240
Speaker 1: in climate VC and it's going to be talking about

2384
02:08:13,240 --> 02:08:16,040
Speaker 1: her climate fund. Somebody is giving a talk next week

2385
02:08:16,120 --> 02:08:19,760
Speaker 1: about her relationship history over the last five years. Somebody

2386
02:08:19,840 --> 02:08:21,840
Speaker 1: is giving a talk about the future of cities, and

2387
02:08:21,920 --> 02:08:24,800
Speaker 1: so it depends. Sometimes we have parties. I think we're

2388
02:08:24,800 --> 02:08:28,760
Speaker 1: having a stand up comedy show next Friday. It really depends.

2389
02:08:28,760 --> 02:08:32,360
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say it's like NonStop activities, which would probably

2390
02:08:32,360 --> 02:08:35,480
Speaker 1: be overwhelming, but if people choose to put something on.

2391
02:08:35,560 --> 02:08:37,440
Speaker 1: They just put it on the calendar, and then people

2392
02:08:37,480 --> 02:08:40,760
Speaker 1: show up, and what about trips and other activities outside

2393
02:08:40,760 --> 02:08:45,040
Speaker 1: the compound. We don't leave the compound that much. It's

2394
02:08:45,080 --> 02:08:46,840
Speaker 1: kind of funny. I went to a comedy show with

2395
02:08:46,880 --> 02:08:49,600
Speaker 1: people last Friday, and it was like weird being with

2396
02:08:49,640 --> 02:08:52,520
Speaker 1: them outside. I think there's kind of a gravitational pull

2397
02:08:52,600 --> 02:08:54,400
Speaker 1: to being here. It's like it's all the food that

2398
02:08:54,440 --> 02:08:57,440
Speaker 1: we want. It's super physically comfortable. We have a hot tub,

2399
02:08:57,480 --> 02:09:00,240
Speaker 1: we have a sauna, we have a fire pit. It's

2400
02:09:00,360 --> 02:09:03,920
Speaker 1: really really a nice space. And so we mostly hang

2401
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:07,000
Speaker 1: out here together. And what pretendage that people are in

2402
02:09:07,040 --> 02:09:12,360
Speaker 1: relationships and what percentage you're single? Most people are in relationships,

2403
02:09:12,400 --> 02:09:14,760
Speaker 1: But I do like having the single people around. I

2404
02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:16,960
Speaker 1: feel like it mixes things up and they're bringing new

2405
02:09:17,000 --> 02:09:19,840
Speaker 1: people in and so, you know, it depends. Sometimes people

2406
02:09:19,920 --> 02:09:21,600
Speaker 1: come and go, and sometimes people are here and there

2407
02:09:21,640 --> 02:09:24,240
Speaker 1: in relationships and they break up. But maybe it's sevent

2408
02:09:24,760 --> 02:09:28,760
Speaker 1: in relationships and you frozen your eggs. You're married. During

2409
02:09:28,800 --> 02:09:32,280
Speaker 1: the you know, throws of your career, do you feel

2410
02:09:32,360 --> 02:09:34,520
Speaker 1: you're either going to time out or age out of

2411
02:09:34,680 --> 02:09:38,560
Speaker 1: radish or theoretically be there for a long time. Yeah,

2412
02:09:38,640 --> 02:09:40,840
Speaker 1: it's something I'm actively thinking about right now because I

2413
02:09:40,840 --> 02:09:43,640
Speaker 1: feel like the apartment I'm in is probably not the

2414
02:09:43,640 --> 02:09:45,640
Speaker 1: physical space that i'd want to have a family, and

2415
02:09:45,640 --> 02:09:48,520
Speaker 1: it just feels like a little bit small. But I'm

2416
02:09:48,560 --> 02:09:52,120
Speaker 1: seeing what other people are doing, and somebody who lives

2417
02:09:52,120 --> 02:09:55,080
Speaker 1: in the same apartment upstairs just had a kid and

2418
02:09:55,080 --> 02:09:58,440
Speaker 1: seems to be making it work. Um, somebody bought the

2419
02:09:58,480 --> 02:10:00,960
Speaker 1: house next door and is into graded with Radish, and

2420
02:10:01,000 --> 02:10:03,880
Speaker 1: so I feel like it makes sense to me that

2421
02:10:03,920 --> 02:10:06,240
Speaker 1: we are not meant to have families in these small,

2422
02:10:06,320 --> 02:10:11,000
Speaker 1: concrete little boxes. I think that leads to isolation, resentment, loneliness,

2423
02:10:11,000 --> 02:10:12,760
Speaker 1: and so I'd love to find a way to stay

2424
02:10:14,000 --> 02:10:17,280
Speaker 1: incorporated with Radish for a long time, as long as

2425
02:10:17,320 --> 02:10:20,680
Speaker 1: I feel like I have the physical space to be comfortable. Okay,

2426
02:10:20,680 --> 02:10:22,680
Speaker 1: it's a nice Jewish girl. I assume you went to

2427
02:10:22,760 --> 02:10:26,480
Speaker 1: summer camp. Is that a correct assumption? Yeah? So to

2428
02:10:26,640 --> 02:10:29,680
Speaker 1: what because I said, you know, if I could go

2429
02:10:29,760 --> 02:10:31,720
Speaker 1: somewhere for summer camp, I'd sign up for that on

2430
02:10:32,000 --> 02:10:34,839
Speaker 1: for the rest of my life. So to what degree

2431
02:10:34,960 --> 02:10:39,320
Speaker 1: is Radish resemble summer camp? Yeah? So I went to

2432
02:10:39,440 --> 02:10:42,920
Speaker 1: a few summer camps. One was like a performing arts one,

2433
02:10:43,400 --> 02:10:47,560
Speaker 1: one was a Jewish one, and honestly I didn't really

2434
02:10:47,640 --> 02:10:50,160
Speaker 1: love it. And then I went to these nerdier summer

2435
02:10:50,160 --> 02:10:54,520
Speaker 1: camps that happened at UH it was called Saint Mark's

2436
02:10:54,520 --> 02:10:58,120
Speaker 1: in Boston or Wellesley, where it was basically nerdy kids

2437
02:10:58,120 --> 02:11:00,480
Speaker 1: from around the country who would take kind of like

2438
02:11:00,560 --> 02:11:04,400
Speaker 1: pseudo college classes like politics of the Simpsons and sushi making.

2439
02:11:04,440 --> 02:11:07,080
Speaker 1: And that was one of the happiest periods of my life.

2440
02:11:07,120 --> 02:11:10,360
Speaker 1: And I think Radish is like that. It's basically nerdy,

2441
02:11:10,520 --> 02:11:16,760
Speaker 1: passionate people coming together designing their definition of fun. Well, look,

2442
02:11:16,800 --> 02:11:18,640
Speaker 1: and I want to thank you so much for taking

2443
02:11:18,640 --> 02:11:21,400
Speaker 1: this time. I mean, I'd rather talk about this than

2444
02:11:21,440 --> 02:11:25,200
Speaker 1: almost anything because it's all about people, and you found

2445
02:11:25,200 --> 02:11:28,560
Speaker 1: a niche. You know, if I was single, I would

2446
02:11:28,560 --> 02:11:31,160
Speaker 1: sign up, you know, I like to do everything once

2447
02:11:31,240 --> 02:11:34,000
Speaker 1: just to see what it's about. But if I was single,

2448
02:11:34,040 --> 02:11:36,360
Speaker 1: I would certainly, you know, at least by the group package,

2449
02:11:36,400 --> 02:11:39,520
Speaker 1: just to see what it's like. You know. So I

2450
02:11:39,560 --> 02:11:42,040
Speaker 1: think you're really onto something. And there are too many

2451
02:11:42,120 --> 02:11:47,440
Speaker 1: self professed experts who have no CV. It's really thin

2452
02:11:47,600 --> 02:11:51,080
Speaker 1: and that's obviously not you. So once again I want

2453
02:11:51,120 --> 02:11:53,840
Speaker 1: to thank you for taking this time. Thank you, it

2454
02:11:53,920 --> 02:11:55,720
Speaker 1: was so much fun. I was really honored to see

2455
02:11:55,760 --> 02:11:57,880
Speaker 1: your email and several folks sent it to me in

2456
02:11:57,920 --> 02:11:59,040
Speaker 1: and they're like, I don't know if you know who

2457
02:11:59,040 --> 02:12:01,440
Speaker 1: Bob is, but he's a really big deal. And the

2458
02:12:01,480 --> 02:12:04,520
Speaker 1: fact that you read that article did a deep dive

2459
02:12:04,520 --> 02:12:08,200
Speaker 1: into my life. Wanted to talk. It's incredibly validating and

2460
02:12:08,520 --> 02:12:11,080
Speaker 1: it was really fun to talk to you and talk

2461
02:12:11,160 --> 02:12:13,480
Speaker 1: about myself for the last two hours. And thanks for

2462
02:12:13,520 --> 02:12:17,520
Speaker 1: the opportunity you bet until next time. This is Bob

2463
02:12:17,640 --> 02:12:40,400
Speaker 1: Left Thash