1 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in 2 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: which we speak with some of the brightest minds working 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: in the media business today. Andrew Wallenstein with Variety. If 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: you're a student of the TV business, a book titled 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: The Business of Television has been a must read since 6 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: it first came out in twenty eighteen. But when it 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: came time to update the conclusion of his work for 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: a second edition coming out this month, author Ken Bason 9 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: realized he had come around to a very different, perhaps 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: more cynical view of the business than in his first edition. 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: We'll hear what changed Bason's mind, how it changed his book, 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: and what he thinks Hollywood could do to get back 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: on track back in just a moment. We are familiar 14 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: with Ken Bason, author of the newly released second edition 15 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: of the Business of Television and a veteran of the 16 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: business affairs divisions of companies including Sony Pictures, Paramount, Amazon Studios, 17 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: and most recently Riot Games. Thanks for making time Ken, 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: for your third appearance on this podcast. 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: Thanks Andrew, I'm excited to do it. Cool. 20 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: So a lot of shop to talk on the current 21 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: state of affairs in Hollywood, but let's start with your book, 22 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: where As I mentioned when I read that new content 23 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: you added to the second edition, I noted this distinct 24 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: change in tone when it came to addressing the industry's 25 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: ability to innovate its way through challenges. You even characterized 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: the sentiment you had expressed in a previous edition as 27 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: quote somewhat sappy. So what shifted in your mind in 28 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: these six years between editions? 29 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I don't think it's any secret that 30 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 3: the six years between editions from twenty eighteen to twenty 31 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 3: four were some pretty tough years for the industry. And 32 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 3: you know, headwinds were kind of visible as early as 33 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, but I think they hit, you know, harder 34 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 3: and faster than even I anticipated. And one thing that 35 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 3: I think I underestimated when I sort of wrote my 36 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: very optimistic end to the first edition where I sort 37 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 3: of kind of expressed my belief in the power of 38 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 3: innovation and deal making to kind of set a chart 39 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 3: course for the industry, was how many incentives there were 40 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 3: against that kind of innovation. I think a lot of 41 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 3: what has happened over the last six years has been 42 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 3: kind of a steady game of all the leader companies 43 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,119 Speaker 3: taking leads from other companies, responding to short term incentives 44 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 3: from Wall Street, responding to kind of short term incentives 45 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 3: from analysts, and the opportunity to make sort of real 46 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 3: change and engage in real innovation just sort of didn't 47 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 3: present itself, and we ended up kind of iterating our 48 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: way into a bit of a blind alley, which is, 49 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 3: I think where the industry sits today with the recognition 50 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 3: that things need to change, but still kind of on 51 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 3: the cusp of making those changes that we need for 52 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: a sustainable future. And I would say in general, one 53 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 3: of the challenges of the second edition was how to 54 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 3: write something that I thought was going to be true 55 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 3: and you know, reflected my real kind of point of 56 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 3: view on where the industry is and where it's going, 57 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 3: and not be hopelessly depressing and have to kind of 58 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: sell a you know, prescription for antidepressants with every copy. 59 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: I still think, I still. 60 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 3: Think we have, you know, good opportunities to make changes, 61 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: and there are pass forward for us. But I think 62 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: I also recognized, with the benefit of six four years, 63 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 3: that it's it's a harder thing to achieve than just 64 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 3: to have kind of blind faith that good ideas will prevail. 65 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: So what wouldn't have good idea ideas or what would 66 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: have innovation looked like. Give an example of where you 67 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: thought the deal making would evolve. 68 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 3: So I think, for example, in twenty eighteen, we were 69 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 3: still kind of in the early years of the cost 70 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 3: plus licensed deal, a so you know, license deals made 71 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 3: for original content on streaming services where the license fee 72 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 3: is greater than the cost of production, as opposed to 73 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: the traditional model, which was the deficit model, where license 74 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: fees were less than the cost of production. And at 75 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 3: the time, the cost plus deal was an addition to 76 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 3: kind of the suite of license models that were available 77 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: for studios in the content business. It represented a sort 78 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 3: of diversification of the way the business could be done, 79 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 3: something that was built to meet the needs of the streamers, 80 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 3: but still lived alongside basic cable structures, broadcast structures, premium 81 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: cable structures. I expected that as these businesses would sort 82 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 3: of diversify in their exhibition models, in their international sort 83 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 3: of strategies, that we might see more diversification and more 84 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 3: evolution in the types of licenses that were available, and 85 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 3: that would you know, create opportunities for mixing up risk 86 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 3: and reward profiles for welcoming different kinds of companies with 87 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 3: different financial parameters into the industry. Is then what happened 88 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: was sort of the exact opposite, where we had this 89 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 3: collapse of business models, and as the major media companies 90 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,239 Speaker 3: shifted their resources and their focuses from their linear businesses 91 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 3: to the streaming businesses, the cost plus deal pretty much 92 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 3: swallowed up every kind of licensing model other than broadcast, 93 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 3: and the broadcast model itself hasn't evolved very much in 94 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 3: that time either, which is why we've seen kind of 95 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 3: the substantial exit from the broadcast business of nearly every 96 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 3: independent studio except for Warner Brothers and Sony and Sony 97 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 3: only remaining on the drama side, and so you know, 98 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 3: now having only two models for studios to work with, 99 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 3: I think is one of the reasons why it's been 100 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 3: so hard for content producers to sort of run successful 101 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 3: sustainable businesses. Again, it's exactly the opposite of what I 102 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: thought was going to happen, which is that as we 103 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 3: had more diversity in the nature of the platforms, that 104 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 3: we would go from having three license models to four 105 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 3: or five. 106 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: We ended up going from three down to two. 107 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: So why did that happen? I mean, of course, the 108 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: simplest answer is, you know, streaming sucked all the oxygen 109 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: out of the room, But I mean, who didn't the 110 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: players involved here had anticipated that. I mean, you know, 111 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: fast forward to twenty twenty four and I don't meet 112 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: a producer that doesn't complain about not getting back end 113 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. So how did you get here? 114 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 3: Well, so the first thing I think is that a 115 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 3: lot of companies sort of from the buyer efficiency side, 116 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: saw some benefits in the cost plus deal, whether it 117 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: was actually essential to their business or not. 118 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: You know, one of the. 119 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 3: One of the things that the cost plus deal does 120 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: is it makes it increasingly cheap to kind of gather 121 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 3: more rights. Because you're providing the studio with a built 122 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 3: in profit margin and more or less eliminating its kind 123 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: of ingoing risk from a production. 124 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: You can sort of. 125 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 3: Get more grabby and continually expand the rights that you 126 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 3: as a network are claiming under a license, or expand 127 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 3: the holdbacks that are applicable on other rights, because there's 128 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 3: not a perception that you're interfering with other business opportunities 129 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: that would have been there. 130 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: And so the scope of these rights grants got bigger 131 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: and bigger, whether or not the companies that were now 132 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: using these. 133 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: Licenses were in a position to use all of those rights. 134 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 3: So some of this was planning for the future companies 135 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 3: that expected to have major international expansion plans that said, what, 136 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 3: we don't want to be caught unprepared not having international 137 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 3: rights for our shows. So let's just buy up all 138 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 3: those international rights, even if we're not actually operating in 139 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 3: the rest of the world, or even if we're only 140 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 3: operating in a fraction of the rest of the world. 141 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 3: And you know, the extra cost to them of buying 142 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 3: a little bit more right versus a little bit less 143 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 3: was not very high. But when this sort of repeated itself, 144 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 3: you know, across lots of platforms, across lots of deals, 145 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 3: you ended up with platforms that were systematic, like excuse me, 146 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 3: systematically spending a lot more money to license content than 147 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 3: was necessarily you know, critical for their business, and ever 148 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 3: diminishing opportunities on the studio side for you know, other 149 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 3: ways to make money from kind of the classic studio model, 150 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 3: which is to make one thing and sell it over 151 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 3: and over to as many people as possible, as many 152 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 3: times as possible, over as long as possible. 153 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: So some of it is conservatism. There was a sense 154 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 2: that if. 155 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 3: We do have our international expansions, we don't want to 156 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,599 Speaker 3: be caught without rights. But a lot of those I 157 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 3: think international expansion plans were pretty speculative at the time, 158 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 3: and we've seen that among the Peacocks and the Maxes 159 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: and the paramount pluses of the world, their international growth 160 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 3: has not been as robust as maybe they anticipated it 161 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 3: would be at that time. They haven't really followed Amazon 162 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 3: and Netflix into kind of bonafide international businesses. They've ended 163 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 3: up librarying a bunch of rights that are basically sitting 164 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 3: fallow and not generating value for anybody right now. And 165 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 3: I think that's been sort of an unfortunate consequences when 166 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 3: people are making these decisions from a place of conservatism 167 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 3: or from a place of expedience because you know, well, 168 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 3: it's not that much more than that it would have 169 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 3: cost otherwise, they are inadvertently destroying pockets of value or 170 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 3: rendering them kind of inaccessible to everybody in the value chain, 171 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 3: and that has bad consequences for the health of the 172 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 3: business as a whole. 173 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: So before we get back to how we get back 174 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: on the road, to innovative deal making in Hollywood. I 175 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: want you to explain how the business here in twenty 176 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: twenty four, where things are looking pretty grim and you 177 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: look in this sort of post strike, post peak TV 178 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: environment where you know, layoffs have decimated these companies, local 179 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: production and the economy around that in LA is pretty 180 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: bad shape. Does the deal making and the what you've 181 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: called the calcification of that deal making? How responsible is 182 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: that for the broader industry circumstances we're in. Is it 183 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: a contributing factory. 184 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's a vicious cycle and it's 185 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 3: both cause and effect of the circumstances that we're in. 186 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 3: I do, unfortunately think that you know, the characterization of 187 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 3: the industry is being in a grim place. 188 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: Is very accurate. 189 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 3: And you know, we're seeing consequences now for decisions that 190 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 3: were made over the last five to ten years that 191 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 3: I think we're probably self evidently unsustainable even as they 192 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 3: were happening. So, I mean, the best example is kind 193 00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: of the volume of production and the peak of peaks 194 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 3: getting as high as six hundred original scripted comedies and 195 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: dramas being. 196 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: Produced and released in the US every year. 197 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 3: I don't think that was ever viewed as broadly sustainable, 198 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 3: but there was an arms race among streaming services. You know, 199 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 3: we still have eight premium streaming services, and I think 200 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: it's been the broad perception in the market for years, 201 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 3: and it's still the perception. I think still true that 202 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: in the long run, the market will only sustain four, 203 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 3: maybe five subscription services within the appetites of people. One 204 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: of the kind of unfortunate realities of the PEAKTV eras 205 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 3: we had six hundred shows, but fewer people than ever 206 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 3: watching any one of those shows. So a lot of 207 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 3: the misery that people are feeling right now that is 208 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 3: really kind of stemming from the rapid and dramatic reduction 209 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 3: and production volume that's sort of unavoidable, and that's not 210 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 3: necessarily driven by the deals. 211 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 2: We just simply couldn't expect. 212 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: Six hundred shows a year to make for a viable business. 213 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 3: We're already seeing the volume go down, you know. I 214 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 3: think the strike was also kind of a symptom, not 215 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 3: a cause of the illness. 216 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 2: Or the malaise in the industry today. 217 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 3: People can you know, reasonably debate what the long term 218 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 3: caring capacity of the industry is in production volume. I 219 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 3: think it's probably around three hundred and fifty series a year. 220 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 3: But you know the rapid expansion we saw from around 221 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 3: one hundred and eighty original series per ye year in 222 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 3: twenty two thousand and nine to six hundred. You know 223 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 3: that rapidly outpaced population growth. There are no more hours 224 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 3: in a day than there used to be. Good deals 225 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 3: or bad. We were going to go down in number, 226 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 3: and going down a number means fewer jobs, less economic activity, 227 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 3: you know, less money being spent that sort of infuses 228 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 3: into the crew community, into the broader community of vendors 229 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 3: and service providers around this stuff. 230 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 2: You can't blame the deals for that. 231 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 3: That's just kind of you know, the it's the bubble bursting, 232 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 3: and the bubble wasn't driven by the deals. 233 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: As we said, you're painting this grim picture. Though, as 234 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: you look towards twenty twenty five, what's the forecast for you? 235 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: Do you see the industry bouncing back? 236 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 3: I definitely see the industry bouncing back in the long run. 237 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 3: I don't know that twenty twenty five is going to 238 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 3: be a whole lot better than twenty twenty four, because 239 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 3: I still think we have some. 240 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 2: Consequences left to. 241 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 3: Endure from these choices, the massive growth in volume, the 242 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 3: lack of diversity in business strategies. With you, I also 243 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 3: would have expected at least some of the major media companies. 244 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 2: To it's not announce, at least strongly. 245 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 3: Signal a more significant pivot in their strategies. 246 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: I think one of the things that's holding that up 247 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: is the kind of ongoing. 248 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 3: Anticipation and ongoing belief at M and A as a 249 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 3: solution to these things. And so you see a lot 250 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 3: of speculation particularly around Warners and the Universal and Paramount 251 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 3: I think not coincidentally, three of the streaming services that 252 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 3: are just lagging behind Disney Plus, Amazon, Netflix, ideas about 253 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 3: whether Paramount Plus and Peacock might eventually merge, or if 254 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 3: Peacock and Max might eventually merge, and so there's still 255 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 3: kind of an implicit bet being made that well, there's 256 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 3: still an opportunity to achieve more scale, and if these 257 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 3: companies do come together and their services come together, the 258 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 3: sort of resulting combined services can still be big enough 259 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 3: to compete. And you know, especially I think Paramount Global 260 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 3: is an example of a company where it's really hard 261 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 3: to interpret their strategy over the last ten years as 262 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 3: having been much more than positioning themselves for a big sale, 263 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 3: as the value of all the assets that we're supposed 264 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 3: to drive the value of that sale, we're kind of 265 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: declining over that period in the cable networks at BT 266 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 3: and a company that sort of officially throws in the 267 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 3: towel on its streaming strategy or streaming service is probably 268 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 3: implicitly taking itself out of the m and A market 269 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 3: right now as well, because there's not necessarily a ton 270 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 3: of demand among buyers for a pure play content production 271 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 3: operation in a market where less content is being produced. 272 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: So I think. 273 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 3: Where we're going to see the kind of tipping point 274 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: and a return to sanity, a sort of you know, 275 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 3: build back up into health is when the industry really 276 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 3: burns the m and A bug out of its system. 277 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: When we come back more with Ken Basin on the 278 00:15:55,160 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: Business of Television stick around and we are back with 279 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: Ken Beason. He is the author of the newly released 280 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: second edition of the Business of Television. Of business he 281 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: knows really well from his time at various leading companies 282 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: like Paramount, Amazon, Sony. Ken Let's you know, at the 283 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: risk of you know, we've certainly probably depressed my listening 284 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: audience no en, So let's start looking at the brighter side. 285 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: I know you see some green shoots, so to speak, 286 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: worth paying attention to advertising on the streaming platforms other areas. 287 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: So what is allowing you to sleep at night? 288 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 3: Well, so, I mean, I'm a big believer in economic thinking, 289 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 3: meaning that people and companies respond to incentives. And as 290 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 3: I said, I think one of the things that is 291 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 3: playing the industry has been the incentives of aligned and 292 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 3: push decision makers in bad directions. Several years of low 293 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 3: interest rates people talk about a lot, you know, almost 294 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 3: zero interest rates, really frothy capital markets signals from Wall 295 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 3: Street for years at a time that the investor class 296 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 3: and seemingly lost interest in profits and margin as meaningful 297 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 3: in business metrics, and the only things that. 298 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 2: Mattered were growth, growth growth. 299 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 3: Macroeconomic conditions have changed those pressures, and now I think 300 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 3: that there are incentives that are driving people in the 301 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 3: direction of better ways of doing business and better ways. 302 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 2: Of making deals. 303 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: Even among the very healthy, thriving companies like Netflix and Amazon, 304 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 3: there's a renewed emphasis on cost sensitivity, doing more with 305 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 3: less efficiency. 306 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: That means that. 307 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 3: There are incentives to not buy so many more rights 308 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 3: than people need, and as people as or slid down 309 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 3: the bundle of rights that they're demanding in their license deals, 310 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 3: that's going to open up opportunities for. 311 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: The studio producers. 312 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: Again, it's going to syndicate risk and reward across the 313 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 3: industry in a way that again has historically been the case, 314 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 3: but not really been characteristic of the markets, and in 315 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 3: economically troubled times, in politically troubled times. I think it 316 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 3: does sort of push the audience back towards TV as 317 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 3: a source of comfort and familiarity, and I think that 318 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 3: comfort and familiar TV is more business viable TV. It 319 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 3: drives the industry towards genres that are more cost effective 320 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 3: to produce. I think the role of advertising creates incentives 321 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 3: to have more episodes rather than less, because advertisers like 322 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 3: to find a program that they like in an audience 323 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 3: they want to connect with, and have. 324 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 2: Lots of opportunities to do that. 325 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 3: And so where as we've seen over the last several 326 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 3: years the move from twenty two episodes thirteen to twelve 327 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 3: to ten to eight, now sometimes to six or seven, 328 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 3: I think we're going to see it drift back upwards 329 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 3: in episode counts, especially in classic genres like comedy, procedural drama, unscripted, 330 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 3: and a higher volume of episodes at a lower price 331 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 3: point per episode. 332 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 2: That creates more opportunity for. 333 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 3: Both platforms and advertisers and producers. So again, I think 334 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 3: that's you know, macro market incentives that are driving people 335 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 3: in what I think is a healthy direction. I also 336 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 3: think that, you know, the talent universe has become increasingly vocal. 337 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 3: You referenced earlier in the sort of laments of producers 338 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 3: and agents everywhere that there's no such thing as real 339 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 3: back end anymore, and I think that opens up a 340 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 3: willingness within the talent community to play ball because you know, 341 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,719 Speaker 3: as much as as we hear these complaints now, in 342 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 3: the early years of the cost plus deal in the 343 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 3: streaming boom, most of the community was very content with 344 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 3: how things were working. They weren't thinking about the absence 345 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: of back end. They were thinking about these giant upfront fees. 346 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 3: But we now have a generation of creators who are 347 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 3: realizing that they just they don't have the opportunity to 348 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 3: generate the kind of generational wealth for themselves that their 349 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 3: mentors and bosses did with. 350 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: The shows that they created. 351 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 3: In the seventies, eighties, nineties, even early two thousands, And 352 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 3: so an appetite among the talent community, the writers and 353 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: creators and producers to find more meaningful upside is going 354 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: to be meaningful because at the end of the day, 355 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 3: that talent is the lifeblood for all of these companies, 356 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 3: and I think it creates incentives for companies to generate 357 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 3: models that can give the talent what they want in 358 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 3: terms of meaningful back ends. And that again is consistent 359 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 3: with these sort of healthier business practices that spread risk out, 360 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 3: spread opportunity out. 361 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: But is that only going to be the kind of 362 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: deal that a list producers get and everyone else is 363 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: going to have to continue settling for inflated upfront Not necessarily. 364 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 3: I think in general companies in the TV space, there's 365 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 3: not much tradition of wild variation in back end models, 366 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 3: at least over the last several decades. 367 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 2: I mean, certainly in the feature film world, and you 368 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: tend to see a. 369 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 3: Lot more variation between you know, net profits definitions that 370 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 3: are pretty widely understood to meet zero dollars no matter 371 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 3: how successful a show is, versus you know, a first 372 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 3: dollar gross definition for the highest level talent It's been 373 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 3: many decades now that, at least before the rise of 374 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 3: dollars for points, in kind of the streaming reinterpretations of 375 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,239 Speaker 3: back end, that you had one model at back end 376 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 3: that was usually called modified and just to gross receipts, 377 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 3: although everybody had their own variations on the language, and 378 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 3: even just from an administration perspective, you know, it can 379 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: be difficult iplicated for companies to operate multiple very different 380 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 3: back end schemes. So I think what you're going to 381 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 3: see is less a kind of tiering of a level 382 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 3: talent and participants are going to get access to a 383 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 3: glorious new form of back end, and low level participants 384 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 3: are going to remain in the system we have today, 385 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 3: and instead you're going to see efforts to construct systems 386 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 3: that are scalable and that generate the kinds of results 387 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 3: that people think are fair and appropriate, from high levels 388 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 3: to low levels, from success to failure, within a single 389 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 3: kind of back end model, and those models will still 390 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 3: vary from company to company. I don't think you'll necessarily 391 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 3: see the same kind of industry wide consistency that was 392 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 3: so prevalent in back end models, but I do think 393 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: you'll see consistency within platforms or within companies on what 394 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 3: their philosophies are and what systems they build on back end, 395 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,479 Speaker 3: and everybody from the highest level participant to the lowest 396 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 3: is going to become a participate in. 397 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: That new system. 398 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 3: And that system, if it works anything like the old 399 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 3: one did, still does create meaningful opportunities for financial upside, 400 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 3: real wealth. 401 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: Even for lower level participants. 402 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 3: They may have a higher hole to climb out, or 403 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 3: they may be some higher distribution fees, higher overhead charges, 404 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 3: but the system itself can sort of generate good outcomes 405 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 3: at all levels if it's well designed. And you know, 406 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 3: I think the companies don't want to retain the old system, 407 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 3: even for the lower level participants, because one of the 408 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 3: fundamental flaws of the old system is that it is 409 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 3: simultaneously over. 410 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: Compensatory and under compensatory. 411 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 3: One of the lines that I've heard that I loved is, 412 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 3: you know, in Hollywood today, we pay everything like it's 413 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 3: a hit, except for the real hits. And companies I 414 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 3: think don't want to continue paying for things as hits 415 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 3: if they're not. They're going to want to create systems 416 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 3: that you know, meaningfully reflect the. 417 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: Actual level of success. 418 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 3: Of a project, and that doesn't work if they keep 419 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 3: the low level participants on these kind of buyop structures. 420 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 3: The logic requires that everybody be let into this new system. 421 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: Leave us with another green shoot, something that you're seeing 422 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: on the horizon right now, or not necessarily the horizon, 423 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: it's already transpiring. That leaves you encourage that this industry 424 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: is on the end. 425 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 3: So I think the thing that stands out to me 426 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 3: is the idea that television is going to become television again. 427 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 3: As streaming emerged and as these companies needed to sort 428 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 3: of teach consumers to engage in new behavior to pay 429 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 3: monthly subscriptions outside of a kind of bundled cable package. 430 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 3: The focus on how these businesses were design and position 431 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 3: and how content was sort of selected for it was 432 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 3: to distinguish it from television, to present it as something different, 433 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 3: something more premium, something more exciting. I think at the 434 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 3: end of the day, that was always more marketing than reality. 435 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 3: And you know, streaming is a form of television. It's 436 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 3: really kind of the dominant future form of television. So 437 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 3: whereas the last several years have been very much about 438 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 3: kind of the eight hour movie or the ten hour movie, 439 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 3: and we've had this influx of motion picture talent both 440 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 3: at front and behind of the camera, and TV shows 441 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 3: are becoming more like movies in their creative content but 442 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 3: also in how they're produced in their running times. If 443 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 3: we let TV do the things that TV is good at, 444 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 3: and I think that we are seeing movements in this direction, 445 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 3: that's what the TV industry needs. And so by that 446 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 3: I mean things like the reemergence of these classic TV 447 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 3: genres what I mentioned before of having more episodes, also 448 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 3: kind of the reregularization of TV. You know, the audience 449 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 3: used to be able to really rely on the calendar 450 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 3: and to know when in the week their favorite show 451 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 3: is going to be on and when next year it 452 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 3: was going to be back, And now they might wait 453 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 3: a year and a half, two years, up to three 454 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 3: years between seasons. That's that's damaging to these shows, because 455 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 3: audiences forget and they move on. 456 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 2: If we make. 457 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 3: TV more like TV with shorter production periods, with shorter 458 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 3: layoffs between seasons, with also I think restoring the kind 459 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 3: of social. 460 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 2: Experience of television. 461 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 3: One of the things that we've lost a bit in 462 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 3: the streaming era has been TV as a thing that 463 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 3: people experience together where either they're gathering around the television 464 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 3: to watch something as a family, or they're going to 465 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 3: work on Monday and talking about what they saw over 466 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 3: the weekend. And you know, with the exception of Game 467 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 3: of Thrones, which I kind of view as like the 468 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 3: last show of the monoculture, and also in a much 469 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 3: more niche way, succession, which was, at least within the 470 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 3: Hollywood community, the show that you had to watch on 471 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 3: Sunday because everyone was watched, who was going to talk 472 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 3: about it on Monday? 473 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 2: Everybody's watching their own thing. 474 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 3: In programming strategy and releasing strategy, we find ways to 475 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 3: make television communal again. I think that's good for the culture. 476 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 3: I think that restores what people love about the genre. 477 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 3: And I think that, you know, the business succeeds by 478 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 3: not trying to be something other than what it is, 479 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 3: but by embracing TV as a medium that's great, and 480 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 3: evolving the business for TV, not trying to sort of 481 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 3: destroy it and rebuild it from scratch. 482 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: Well, as much ground as we have covered, I feel 483 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: like we're only scratching the surface. And yet I have 484 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: a feeling perhaps six years from now, if we're talking 485 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: about a third edition, not that I'm committing you to one. 486 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: I have a feeling it will be just as radically 487 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: different a conversation as the difference was between the second 488 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: and first. Thank you Ken for coming on and talking 489 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: about the second edition of the Business the Television. 490 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 2: My pleasure, Andrew, thank you for having me. 491 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review 492 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 4: at Apple Podcasts or Amazon Music. We love to hear 493 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 4: from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and sign 494 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 4: up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't 495 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,719 Speaker 4: forget to tune in next week for another episode of 496 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 4: Strictly Business.