WEBVTT - How Talking to a Friend Helps (Live at The International Festival of Arts and Ideas) 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.916 Pushkin. 0:00:22.796 --> 0:00:24.996 Thanks to everyone who listened to the most recent season 0:00:24.996 --> 0:00:27.196 of The Happiness Lab, which was all about the well 0:00:27.236 --> 0:00:30.316 being challenges that I struggle with most. I've learned a 0:00:30.316 --> 0:00:32.716 lot from making that series, but I got to admit 0:00:33.036 --> 0:00:36.036 at times it was pretty hard. I know it's healthy 0:00:36.076 --> 0:00:38.436 to be vulnerable and talk about your problems, but it's 0:00:38.476 --> 0:00:41.636 often easier said than done, which is exactly what I'll 0:00:41.676 --> 0:00:44.556 be discussing on this week's episode with my dear colleague, 0:00:44.636 --> 0:00:48.196 the Yale philosopher and cognitive scientist ta mark Endler. I'm 0:00:48.236 --> 0:00:50.876 guessing you've probably heard Tamorro and The Happiness Lab before. 0:00:51.156 --> 0:00:53.796 In the past, we've talked about what famous philosophers like 0:00:53.836 --> 0:00:57.516 Socrates and Aristotle said about happiness. But as my close friend, 0:00:57.596 --> 0:01:00.716 Tamar also had lots of interesting ideas about the problems 0:01:00.756 --> 0:01:02.836 I decided to tackle in the last season. 0:01:03.516 --> 0:01:04.596 So when Tomorrow and I were. 0:01:04.436 --> 0:01:06.596 Invited to give a joint talk at the twenty twenty 0:01:06.596 --> 0:01:10.236 four International Festival of Arts and Ideas, New Haven, Connecticut, 0:01:10.596 --> 0:01:12.556 we thought, why not reflect. 0:01:12.156 --> 0:01:14.356 On what we've both learned from these personal shows. 0:01:14.916 --> 0:01:17.116 The first of Little Arts and Ideas kindly allowed us 0:01:17.156 --> 0:01:19.916 to share our conversation, so now you can listen to 0:01:20.396 --> 0:01:21.316 I hope you enjoy it. 0:01:22.436 --> 0:01:25.956 Thank you so much to all of you who are 0:01:26.436 --> 0:01:31.196 joining us here. It really feels like we are among friends. 0:01:31.356 --> 0:01:33.876 But one of the things you may or may not 0:01:34.036 --> 0:01:37.476 know is that, in addition to being professional colleagues who've 0:01:37.516 --> 0:01:41.516 done a lot of work together, Laurie and I are 0:01:41.716 --> 0:01:45.476 actually very close friends. And in fact, we're such close 0:01:45.516 --> 0:01:52.676 friends that we often finish one another's sentences. So what 0:01:52.756 --> 0:01:56.796 we want to do today is actually have a conversation 0:01:57.076 --> 0:02:01.996 with you that's much more intimate and personal than we 0:02:02.156 --> 0:02:06.956 have ever done before in a public setting. Everything that 0:02:06.996 --> 0:02:08.836 we say to one another is going to be in 0:02:09.196 --> 0:02:13.316 warmed by the academic research that we do. But our 0:02:13.596 --> 0:02:17.556 goal in speaking before you today is really to give 0:02:17.756 --> 0:02:24.236 some autobiographical information about our own experiences, our own struggles, 0:02:24.356 --> 0:02:29.516 and our own challenges. And Laurie has set the tone 0:02:29.596 --> 0:02:32.836 for doing this with her recent podcast. 0:02:33.156 --> 0:02:35.556 The Happiness Lab is my podcast where I talk about 0:02:35.636 --> 0:02:38.356 so many things in the science of happiness. We focused 0:02:38.356 --> 0:02:40.956 on lots of different topics, but just this summer we 0:02:40.996 --> 0:02:43.876 started a new season. It's a whole season about the 0:02:43.876 --> 0:02:47.196 happiness challenges that I face personally, and this is a 0:02:47.196 --> 0:02:49.156 spot where you might be saying, like wait a minute, 0:02:49.196 --> 0:02:51.636 hang on, Like I signed up really early for this 0:02:51.676 --> 0:02:53.876 event to talk to a happiness expert. 0:02:54.516 --> 0:02:56.036 How is the happiness expert. 0:02:55.876 --> 0:02:58.116 So messed up when it comes to having a challenges 0:02:58.236 --> 0:02:59.396 like you know, did I not train? 0:02:59.516 --> 0:03:00.276 Like what's going on? 0:03:00.436 --> 0:03:03.156 And it turns out that that's in part because I'm human, right, 0:03:03.236 --> 0:03:06.716 we all struggle with happiness challenges. But it also comes 0:03:06.716 --> 0:03:09.276 about do I to A kind of funny puzzle that 0:03:09.316 --> 0:03:11.516 comes up in cognitive science is actually a puzzle that 0:03:11.556 --> 0:03:13.076 Tomorrow and I have written about. 0:03:13.076 --> 0:03:13.676 I believe it was. 0:03:13.716 --> 0:03:16.156 In fact, I think it was our first paper that 0:03:16.236 --> 0:03:20.596 we ever wrote together. And it's basically about how it 0:03:20.676 --> 0:03:27.116 is possible to have theoretical knowledge and lack practical knowledge. 0:03:27.996 --> 0:03:33.996 So there's a great tradition in ancient Greek philosophy of 0:03:34.236 --> 0:03:40.436 distinguishing between knowledge of abstract things, a kind of theoretical 0:03:40.476 --> 0:03:45.076 wisdom which goes by various names, a knowledge of practical things, 0:03:45.276 --> 0:03:49.036 of how to flourish, of how to live, which is 0:03:49.436 --> 0:03:54.396 in certain parts of the Greek tradition called phronesis practical wisdom. 0:03:55.036 --> 0:04:01.556 And what's interesting about practical wisdom is that it comes 0:04:01.596 --> 0:04:06.516 about through different sorts of activities than theoretical wisdom does. 0:04:07.076 --> 0:04:11.756 And so Laurie and I were at the late Great 0:04:12.236 --> 0:04:16.676 La Fitness, who belonged to La Fitness in Hamden, right 0:04:16.676 --> 0:04:19.196 near the Stop and shop. So we were at La 0:04:19.356 --> 0:04:23.836 or La Fitness, engaging in bodily exercise, and I was 0:04:23.876 --> 0:04:28.436 talking to Laurie about this ancient philosophical tradition and basically 0:04:29.076 --> 0:04:32.876 telling her how in ancient Greek philosophy there's a distinctionion 0:04:33.156 --> 0:04:35.636 roughly between book smarts and street smarts. 0:04:36.116 --> 0:04:37.876 And Laurie said, oh, my. 0:04:37.876 --> 0:04:41.236 God, did you know there's also an eighties television show 0:04:41.276 --> 0:04:43.116 about that? And of course I did not know there 0:04:43.156 --> 0:04:45.596 was an eighties television show because I grew up with 0:04:45.796 --> 0:04:49.956 parents who bought a TV to watch Nixon resign and 0:04:49.996 --> 0:04:50.876 then put it away. 0:04:52.916 --> 0:04:54.476 But it was that eighties. 0:04:54.276 --> 0:04:58.156 Television show, which Laurie will describe, that gave us the 0:04:58.556 --> 0:05:01.356 idea for the first joint paper that we wrote, which 0:05:01.436 --> 0:05:05.396 is about why Laurie, even though she's the world's happiness expert, 0:05:05.716 --> 0:05:07.876 is still having trouble making it work in her life. 0:05:07.916 --> 0:05:09.596 Anybody who want to guess to get guess what the 0:05:09.676 --> 0:05:12.316 eighties TV show was, it was actually Gi Joe. 0:05:12.396 --> 0:05:13.396 It was eighties cartoon. 0:05:13.476 --> 0:05:17.396 To be fair, why is the Gijo television show about 0:05:17.436 --> 0:05:20.916 this disconnect between kind of head knowledge and street knowledge? 0:05:21.196 --> 0:05:22.876 If you remember the g I Joe? How many you 0:05:22.956 --> 0:05:24.916 have actually seen the g I Joe TV show? Okay, 0:05:24.916 --> 0:05:26.956 we're seeing some hands some of you. Some of you 0:05:26.996 --> 0:05:28.756 are a little older than eighties TV shows. 0:05:28.756 --> 0:05:30.156 That's cool. Some of you are a little younger. 0:05:30.196 --> 0:05:32.396 They're like, So g I Jo was the show with 0:05:32.596 --> 0:05:34.716 a bunch of like army guys who did kind of 0:05:34.996 --> 0:05:38.556 army guy heroic things. But it's most famous for how 0:05:38.596 --> 0:05:41.596 each cartoon episode ended. It ended some of you're not 0:05:41.796 --> 0:05:45.076 It ended with this public service announcement which taught kids 0:05:45.196 --> 0:05:47.316 really important things in the eighties, like don't talk to 0:05:47.356 --> 0:05:49.516 strangers or look both ways when you cross your street. 0:05:49.516 --> 0:05:50.556 It was really basic stuff. 0:05:50.836 --> 0:05:53.756 But Gi Jo would explain this big public service message 0:05:53.796 --> 0:05:55.836 to their kids and the kids would say, thank you, 0:05:55.916 --> 0:05:56.516 g I Joe. 0:05:56.556 --> 0:05:59.076 Now I know, and g I Jo would say and 0:05:59.116 --> 0:06:02.996 knowing is half the battle, and go gi Joe, Now 0:06:03.036 --> 0:06:03.276 that's all. 0:06:03.316 --> 0:06:06.036 I would be like, oh, now I remember. But this 0:06:06.196 --> 0:06:08.716 was the catchphrase, Knowing is half the battle. When you 0:06:08.756 --> 0:06:11.716 know a thing, you're most of the way there, and 0:06:11.756 --> 0:06:14.556 what tomorrow I wrote in our you know now pretty 0:06:14.556 --> 0:06:17.476 well known. I think paper is the idea that that 0:06:17.556 --> 0:06:20.436 statement knowing is half the battle is a fallacy, one 0:06:20.436 --> 0:06:22.316 that we've christened the g I Joe fallacy. 0:06:22.676 --> 0:06:25.036 Knowing is not half the battle, right, you know? Take 0:06:25.116 --> 0:06:25.876 take my fitness. 0:06:25.916 --> 0:06:27.516 I know what I should be eating, I know I 0:06:27.516 --> 0:06:28.876 should get to the gym all the time. 0:06:28.956 --> 0:06:30.996 That doesn't mean I do it right. 0:06:31.076 --> 0:06:33.036 We know so many things about the stuff that we 0:06:33.076 --> 0:06:36.396 should be doing, but that doesn't translate into the practical 0:06:36.596 --> 0:06:39.116 doing those things. And this is what I feel like 0:06:39.156 --> 0:06:41.116 I'm struggling with a little bit when it comes to 0:06:41.156 --> 0:06:43.596 the happiness science. Obviously I know about this stuff, right, 0:06:43.636 --> 0:06:46.676 I teach an Ivy League institution, all these tips and 0:06:46.716 --> 0:06:48.956 strategies that we should be using to feel better and 0:06:48.996 --> 0:06:51.916 protect our mental health and so on. But it's still 0:06:51.956 --> 0:06:54.916 really hard to put those strategies into practice. And so 0:06:55.116 --> 0:06:57.076 this is what we wanted to get intimate about today. 0:06:57.276 --> 0:06:58.596 Does that sound good a reason to it? 0:06:58.676 --> 0:06:59.556 Not that, right? 0:07:01.596 --> 0:07:04.556 So one of the really cool things about the GI 0:07:04.716 --> 0:07:09.956 Joe fallacy is that it's self referential. It applies to itself. 0:07:10.316 --> 0:07:14.796 So I traced it through the entire Western philosophical tradition, 0:07:15.316 --> 0:07:17.836 all the places where somebody had noticed this. 0:07:18.596 --> 0:07:21.156 The Gi Joe fallacy is true of itself. 0:07:21.476 --> 0:07:25.076 The fact that we know that knowing is less than 0:07:25.116 --> 0:07:31.756 half the battle doesn't mean that we thereby assimilate that 0:07:31.996 --> 0:07:39.116 knowledge into our behavior. And the key challenge of flourishing 0:07:40.036 --> 0:07:44.196 in the ancient philosophical tradition of the West, in Greece 0:07:44.236 --> 0:07:47.276 and Rome, and I would say the key challenge of 0:07:47.556 --> 0:07:52.676 flourishing and happiness in contemporary cognitive science discourse is the 0:07:52.916 --> 0:07:59.636 question of how you speak, how you train, how you 0:07:59.796 --> 0:08:05.836 control the aspects of yourself that are not subject to 0:08:05.956 --> 0:08:07.196 rational control. 0:08:08.316 --> 0:08:10.196 It's really easy. 0:08:09.996 --> 0:08:13.636 To understand the Gi Joe fallacy. It's really easy to 0:08:13.716 --> 0:08:16.636 listen to Laurie's podcast. It's really easy to read a 0:08:16.636 --> 0:08:22.516 bunch of neuroscience articles, and doing that is less than 0:08:22.636 --> 0:08:27.156 half the battle. So a lot of ancient wisdom tradition 0:08:27.356 --> 0:08:31.756 work in Western philosophy, things like Plato and Aristytle, are 0:08:31.876 --> 0:08:38.236 actually about how you make things stick in a way 0:08:38.276 --> 0:08:42.596 that you have them present at the moment that matters 0:08:43.276 --> 0:08:47.916 in lots of ways. The challenge of understanding in a 0:08:47.996 --> 0:08:51.596 practical sense is the challenge of having the thought that 0:08:51.636 --> 0:08:53.956 you want to have the reaction that you want to 0:08:53.996 --> 0:08:58.516 have ready to hand at the moment that you needed 0:08:59.636 --> 0:09:03.636 You can do all the rehearsing you want of staying 0:09:03.996 --> 0:09:08.156 calm in the face of things that enrage you. And 0:09:08.476 --> 0:09:14.236 if that skill is not ready to hand at the 0:09:14.356 --> 0:09:17.836 moment where you are in a conversation with a loved 0:09:17.836 --> 0:09:23.036 one who says something painful to you, it has not 0:09:23.356 --> 0:09:28.596 properly served you. So the very first explicitly self help 0:09:28.756 --> 0:09:33.076 book was actually called the ready to handbook. 0:09:33.236 --> 0:09:34.876 It's a little book by. 0:09:34.636 --> 0:09:38.756 A philosopher named Epicteitis, was written about two thousand years ago. 0:09:38.836 --> 0:09:42.956 It was called in Greek the Enchiridion. What that means 0:09:43.236 --> 0:09:46.236 is handbook, ready to handbook. It was meant to give 0:09:46.236 --> 0:09:49.836 you a bunch of skills that would be available to 0:09:49.916 --> 0:09:53.796 you at the moment that you needed them. And what 0:09:54.076 --> 0:09:58.356 Laurie has been working on in the most recent aspect 0:09:58.716 --> 0:10:04.356 of her podcast is really a set of reflections on 0:10:04.636 --> 0:10:09.996 making things ready to hand. She's been focusing on five 0:10:10.356 --> 0:10:13.196 topics and what we want to try to do today 0:10:13.276 --> 0:10:15.276 is to get through at least three of them. We 0:10:15.316 --> 0:10:17.956 may make it to four, we may even we'll see 0:10:18.236 --> 0:10:20.316 not if I keep going on like this make it 0:10:20.356 --> 0:10:20.796 to five. 0:10:21.636 --> 0:10:23.836 But let me just let you know what. 0:10:23.716 --> 0:10:26.356 They are so that you have a sense of the 0:10:26.396 --> 0:10:29.356 issues that we want to discuss today. So the first 0:10:29.516 --> 0:10:32.996 is the topic of perfectionism and how we deal with 0:10:33.396 --> 0:10:37.036 expectations that we have for ourselves that are hard to meet. 0:10:37.756 --> 0:10:40.276 The second is the question about the relation between your 0:10:40.276 --> 0:10:43.876 present and future self. How do we rightly decide what 0:10:43.916 --> 0:10:46.396 we do now that will help us later, what we 0:10:46.436 --> 0:10:48.676 do now that will harm us later? How do we 0:10:48.796 --> 0:10:54.796 balance ourself across ten third is the issue of stress 0:10:55.196 --> 0:10:59.436 and how we represent it to ourselves and manage it. 0:11:00.116 --> 0:11:04.876 The fourth is the issue of busyness and how we 0:11:05.236 --> 0:11:08.196 manage in a world where we may feel over committed. 0:11:09.276 --> 0:11:13.036 The fifth, because this is arts and ideas and we 0:11:13.156 --> 0:11:16.716 don't want to shy away from the biggest ones, is 0:11:16.796 --> 0:11:19.196 the question of how we think about our own mortality 0:11:19.516 --> 0:11:22.516 and the ways in which reflecting on our own mortality 0:11:23.076 --> 0:11:27.636 can help us to live each moment of our non 0:11:27.716 --> 0:11:30.436 mortality as well as we can. 0:11:31.076 --> 0:11:32.476 So I want to start. 0:11:32.156 --> 0:11:35.876 By asking Laurie to say a few words about perfectionism. 0:11:36.556 --> 0:11:39.116 How many folks and audience think of themselves as a 0:11:39.116 --> 0:11:41.596 little perfectionists. A show of hands. I'm seeing a lot 0:11:41.636 --> 0:11:43.876 of hands. Okay, yeah, I mean I don't need to 0:11:43.916 --> 0:11:47.036 even explain, right, Like, I'm a type AIVY League professor 0:11:47.156 --> 0:11:49.436 who cares about a lot, and I set really high 0:11:49.436 --> 0:11:52.196 standards for myself. That's the way I say, in a 0:11:52.276 --> 0:11:54.596 kind way, Oh, I set high standards for myself. It 0:11:54.636 --> 0:11:56.036 sounds like the kind of thing you say in an 0:11:56.076 --> 0:11:58.956 interview when someone asks what's your worst trait and you say, oh, 0:12:02.436 --> 0:12:05.916 that sounds good. But the reality out of it inside 0:12:06.036 --> 0:12:08.236 is much different. The reality of it inside is that 0:12:08.276 --> 0:12:12.036 I'm incredibly self critical. It's really hard to figure out 0:12:12.076 --> 0:12:14.396 anything I do that feels like it's above bar right. 0:12:14.436 --> 0:12:15.876 Everything I do is like, well, I could have done 0:12:15.876 --> 0:12:17.356 that better, I know, et cetera, et cetera. 0:12:17.836 --> 0:12:20.076 And that causes me to do a couple things that 0:12:20.116 --> 0:12:20.516 I don't like. 0:12:20.596 --> 0:12:22.956 When is it causes me to shy away from anything 0:12:23.276 --> 0:12:25.556 where I feel like I might screw up. Right, there's 0:12:25.556 --> 0:12:27.396 always like new hobbies or new cool things I want 0:12:27.396 --> 0:12:28.476 to try to be like, oh, I'm not gonna be 0:12:28.476 --> 0:12:29.996 good at that, and I kind of run away. It 0:12:30.036 --> 0:12:33.636 also means that I constantly feel kind of yucky because 0:12:33.676 --> 0:12:36.916 my internal monologue is this sort of terrible, mean drill 0:12:36.996 --> 0:12:39.276 sergeant who's kind of yelling at me all the time. 0:12:39.876 --> 0:12:42.396 And so even though it's kind of in some ways 0:12:42.436 --> 0:12:44.196 something that we get a little bit proud of, the 0:12:44.236 --> 0:12:47.436 person I interview for my episode, Thomas Kurrn says it's 0:12:47.436 --> 0:12:51.276 our society's favorite flaw, perfectionism. Like, it's actually something that 0:12:51.276 --> 0:12:53.596 makes me feel kind of crappy on a regular basis 0:12:53.676 --> 0:12:55.196 and something that I've wanted to fix. 0:12:56.076 --> 0:13:00.796 So I had a wonderful example of perfectionism hit me today. 0:13:01.036 --> 0:13:05.116 So I actually have to be in Denver tonight, and 0:13:05.156 --> 0:13:08.516 so right after this event, I'm going to go down 0:13:08.596 --> 0:13:12.436 to look Hard Airport and fly out. So while I 0:13:12.476 --> 0:13:15.316 am away, I have a house sitter who is a 0:13:15.356 --> 0:13:18.396 student who's probably going to listen to this podcast and 0:13:18.476 --> 0:13:22.396 hear this story. So I'm incredibly anxious that my house 0:13:22.556 --> 0:13:27.236 be super clean and organized, and I can't bear for 0:13:27.316 --> 0:13:31.276 her to open my fridge and not see the shelves 0:13:31.356 --> 0:13:35.276 perfectly polished. And for some reason, I got obsessed this 0:13:35.356 --> 0:13:38.076 morning with the fact that I had an extra head 0:13:38.196 --> 0:13:41.996 of ridicio in the fridge, which I had purchased it 0:13:41.996 --> 0:13:45.156 had been very expensive. I bought it at Nika's and 0:13:45.196 --> 0:13:49.836 I hadn't eaten it, and I literally called Laurie and said, 0:13:50.556 --> 0:13:56.196 could you come over before and ideas talk to take 0:13:56.236 --> 0:13:59.756 the ridicio so that I don't let it go to 0:13:59.876 --> 0:14:02.796 waste in my fridge in a way that is visible 0:14:03.196 --> 0:14:08.836 in this undergraduate research assistant who's going to be house sitting. Now, 0:14:09.556 --> 0:14:14.836 what's funny about that story is that both my anxiety 0:14:15.396 --> 0:14:21.236 and my instinctive reaction were due to a particular deep 0:14:21.316 --> 0:14:27.636 fact about human beings, which is what other people think 0:14:27.676 --> 0:14:32.036 of us matters to us. The philosopher Plato spoke of 0:14:32.076 --> 0:14:36.276 our soul as having three parts. He called them reason, spirit, 0:14:36.836 --> 0:14:40.516 and appetite. Reason is the part of you that responds 0:14:40.596 --> 0:14:45.556 to rational concerns and information and facts. Appetite is the 0:14:45.596 --> 0:14:48.676 part of you that basically responds to your need to 0:14:48.796 --> 0:14:53.916 keep going that's roughly food and procreation. And spirit is 0:14:53.956 --> 0:14:57.716 the part of you that responds to the social world 0:14:58.276 --> 0:15:05.876 around you. So Plato recognized that a deep segment of 0:15:06.076 --> 0:15:10.876 our motivation as human beings results from our desire to 0:15:10.996 --> 0:15:14.476 be judged affirmatively by others. 0:15:14.756 --> 0:15:16.356 And what's really. 0:15:16.116 --> 0:15:21.836 Cool is that just as that led to detriment this 0:15:21.956 --> 0:15:27.476 morning as I was anxiously polishing the coffee filter, polishing 0:15:27.636 --> 0:15:31.356 the coffee filter because I was sure that this lovely 0:15:31.476 --> 0:15:33.796 nineteen year old young woman must come from a home 0:15:34.156 --> 0:15:37.396 with a polished coffee filter, not with a dirty coffee 0:15:37.396 --> 0:15:38.556 written coffee filter. 0:15:38.716 --> 0:15:41.556 Shacsay had like coffee filters, I caro when I showed up, 0:15:41.596 --> 0:15:44.036 and I'm like, fixed this before we go on stage. 0:15:44.396 --> 0:15:45.156 Anyway, go ahead. 0:15:46.436 --> 0:15:51.316 I was so concerned with the gaze of another that 0:15:51.516 --> 0:15:57.796 I lost track of a lesson that Plato's student Aristotle 0:15:58.076 --> 0:16:02.516 puts forward, which is the idea that a friend can 0:16:02.836 --> 0:16:07.116 serve as a second self. Aristotle says, a friend is 0:16:07.116 --> 0:16:11.956 a second self. It magnet defies our joy and cuts 0:16:12.156 --> 0:16:14.156 in half our sorrow. 0:16:14.356 --> 0:16:15.316 So I want to. 0:16:15.196 --> 0:16:18.796 Let Laurie give you a sense of the science behind 0:16:19.436 --> 0:16:22.076 why the right thing for me to do when I 0:16:22.156 --> 0:16:26.236 was anxious about my ridicio was to reach out to 0:16:26.396 --> 0:16:29.956 someone else and say the shameful words. 0:16:30.356 --> 0:16:31.676 I bought a. 0:16:31.716 --> 0:16:34.076 Head of ridicuo at Nika's that I. 0:16:34.116 --> 0:16:35.316 Did not eat. 0:16:35.756 --> 0:16:37.916 The most sad thing was it because we were prepping. 0:16:38.196 --> 0:16:41.596 We actually didn't end up eating still in the fridge, 0:16:41.676 --> 0:16:44.436 but we're working on the grace that comes with that. 0:16:45.556 --> 0:16:46.476 No, I mean I think you know. 0:16:46.676 --> 0:16:49.956 Tomorrow pointed out that this issue of being worried about 0:16:49.996 --> 0:16:52.716 what other people think is part of human nature. But 0:16:52.796 --> 0:16:54.756 one of the things we also learned in the science 0:16:54.836 --> 0:16:59.116 is that this particular aspect of our perfectionism is getting 0:16:59.316 --> 0:17:02.436 worse over time. Doctor Curran, who I had on the show, 0:17:02.676 --> 0:17:05.316 did this very famous paper where he's a professor in 0:17:05.356 --> 0:17:07.396 the UK. He deals with students just to the way 0:17:07.436 --> 0:17:09.476 that Tomorrow and I do, and he started having this 0:17:09.556 --> 0:17:12.356 sense that, like, the modern college student is like a 0:17:12.356 --> 0:17:15.236 little bit more perfectionists than they were five years ago, 0:17:15.316 --> 0:17:16.236 ten years ago, and so on. 0:17:16.396 --> 0:17:17.836 And he said, well, could that really be? 0:17:17.956 --> 0:17:20.036 I wonder if there's survey data about that, And so 0:17:20.076 --> 0:17:22.316 he went all the way back to the eighties and 0:17:22.356 --> 0:17:25.196 looked at every paper that gave college students a survey 0:17:25.196 --> 0:17:28.196 about perfectionism, and just like tight traded up over time. 0:17:28.236 --> 0:17:30.916 And what he's found is that since the nineteen eighties, since. 0:17:30.756 --> 0:17:34.756 Gijoe was on the air, overall perfectionism has gone up 0:17:34.756 --> 0:17:38.516 in young people about thirty percent, which is pretty intense. 0:17:39.036 --> 0:17:41.556 But he also found that there's one part of perfectionism 0:17:41.556 --> 0:17:44.316 that's going up the most. We have different parts of perfections, 0:17:44.436 --> 0:17:46.796 is like I have these high standards for myself, right, 0:17:47.236 --> 0:17:49.676 or perhaps I hold high standards for other people. We 0:17:49.836 --> 0:17:52.476 often talk about like a perfectionist boss who expects you 0:17:52.516 --> 0:17:54.916 to do too much. But the part that's most going 0:17:54.996 --> 0:17:58.116 up in young people today is the opposite of that. 0:17:58.476 --> 0:18:01.076 I assume that other people expect a lot of me. 0:18:01.436 --> 0:18:03.276 Right, if my students coming over my house, they're going 0:18:03.356 --> 0:18:05.276 to judge me for what my coffee pop looks like 0:18:05.316 --> 0:18:07.556 and so on. That's the part that's gone up the 0:18:07.596 --> 0:18:10.516 most since the nineteen eighties, which is a problem. It 0:18:10.556 --> 0:18:12.396 means not only do we have the kind of human 0:18:12.476 --> 0:18:15.236 nature that is really worried about what other people are thinking, 0:18:15.876 --> 0:18:18.916 our misconception about that has gotten worse over time. And 0:18:18.956 --> 0:18:20.956 you can probably make guesses about why that is, things 0:18:20.996 --> 0:18:23.316 like being on social media all the time and having 0:18:23.316 --> 0:18:25.436 the gaze of others on you in a very special way. 0:18:25.956 --> 0:18:28.756 But the way you solve this, of course, is to 0:18:28.796 --> 0:18:32.756 try to harness not some like general kind of misconceived 0:18:32.796 --> 0:18:35.756 idea of the other who's really being judge of you. 0:18:35.756 --> 0:18:38.276 You bring to mind a real second friend, right to 0:18:38.356 --> 0:18:40.236 mark think about, well, what's Lauria're going to really think 0:18:40.276 --> 0:18:42.156 about the Ridicia if it was her staying in my house, 0:18:42.196 --> 0:18:44.316 which she really judged me, and she'd be like, actually, 0:18:44.436 --> 0:18:46.956 probably I'm not back. I actually don't have any vegetables 0:18:46.956 --> 0:18:49.316 in my frider now, so I definitely would have be judging. 0:18:49.356 --> 0:18:51.076 But yeah, I should be like, oh, when I think 0:18:51.116 --> 0:18:54.076 about myself and my own achievements from the perspective of 0:18:54.116 --> 0:18:56.396 a friend, now all of a sudden, I can give 0:18:56.436 --> 0:18:59.076 myself grace. And it turns out that this is the 0:18:59.156 --> 0:19:01.876 practice that you bring to mind if you want to 0:19:01.916 --> 0:19:06.476 fight your perfectionism. You actually think, you know this terrible voice, 0:19:06.516 --> 0:19:08.636 this inner drill sergeant in your head is kind of 0:19:08.716 --> 0:19:11.476 yelling at you. You give them a voice like, okay, 0:19:11.556 --> 0:19:14.036 you know our drill sergeant voice. I'm going to summon 0:19:14.036 --> 0:19:16.116 the Tomorrow voice, like what would Tamorrow tell me? 0:19:16.556 --> 0:19:16.716 Right? 0:19:16.756 --> 0:19:19.116 And just the instant of doing that is a really 0:19:19.196 --> 0:19:21.716 key way to fight your inner critic and bring in 0:19:21.756 --> 0:19:24.876 somebody who cares about you. And I love this idea 0:19:24.916 --> 0:19:27.716 of kind of using self talk as though you're hearing 0:19:27.756 --> 0:19:32.036 from a friend, because that kind of self talk isn't coddling, right, 0:19:32.156 --> 0:19:34.916 Tomorrow wouldn't judge me for having a erdicio in my fridge. 0:19:35.196 --> 0:19:37.956 But if I was truly messing something up tomorrow, woul 0:19:37.956 --> 0:19:38.956 want to talk to me about it. 0:19:38.996 --> 0:19:40.876 She wouldn't scream at me like a drill sergeant in 0:19:40.876 --> 0:19:43.316 the way I often do with my perfectionist voice. But 0:19:43.396 --> 0:19:45.316 she'd get curious. She'd be like, what is going on? 0:19:45.396 --> 0:19:47.836 We need to address this, Let's talk about it. And 0:19:47.876 --> 0:19:50.356 so harnessing that friend voice allows you to do something 0:19:50.396 --> 0:19:54.036 really important. You're shutting off the drill sergeant perfectionist voice 0:19:54.036 --> 0:19:56.596 that's demanding too much of you, But you have a 0:19:56.636 --> 0:20:00.436 curious voice there that's wise, that really is going to 0:20:00.436 --> 0:20:02.756 push you if you needed. And so it's this perfect 0:20:02.756 --> 0:20:06.556 balance between kind of overcddling but kind of being too 0:20:06.676 --> 0:20:10.036 drill sergeanty. On the other hand, ability to adopt a 0:20:10.036 --> 0:20:12.476 different persona in order to talk to yourself is an 0:20:12.476 --> 0:20:13.236 important skill. 0:20:13.756 --> 0:20:15.796 It's also one that can improve your happiness. 0:20:16.116 --> 0:20:18.596 But I'll let Tamar explain more when the Happiness Lab 0:20:18.636 --> 0:20:31.436 returns in a moment. So far, in our talk at 0:20:31.436 --> 0:20:34.356 the International Festival of Arts and Ideas, my friend Tamar 0:20:34.356 --> 0:20:36.756 Genler and I have discussed why talking to yourself like 0:20:36.796 --> 0:20:40.396 a compassionate friend can help you fight perfectionism, but tomorrow 0:20:40.436 --> 0:20:43.796 thinks this technique can apply and lots of other situations too. 0:20:43.996 --> 0:20:50.516 It's actually the most important general skill that we can acquire, 0:20:50.636 --> 0:20:55.756 because it's roughly a skill of perspective taking. We spend 0:20:55.996 --> 0:21:02.076 our entire lives viewing the world from inside our own heads, 0:21:02.316 --> 0:21:06.036 from the perspective of the world that is unique to us, 0:21:06.796 --> 0:21:12.236 and when we're young children, infants, we're so certain that 0:21:12.436 --> 0:21:16.596 the world is in accord with our perception of it 0:21:17.156 --> 0:21:20.836 that when we cover our own eyes, we think we're invisible. 0:21:21.796 --> 0:21:26.956 The moment of coming to be a social being is 0:21:26.996 --> 0:21:31.116 the moment of recognizing that, in addition to your own eyes, 0:21:31.876 --> 0:21:36.716 there are eyes of others, and the capacity to have 0:21:36.996 --> 0:21:41.956 ready to hand the eyes and voices of others. The 0:21:42.236 --> 0:21:47.356 other perspectives that might be taken at both the instance 0:21:47.716 --> 0:21:52.076 when you are being too easy on yourself and the 0:21:52.116 --> 0:21:55.636 instance of when you are being too hard on yourself 0:21:56.156 --> 0:22:00.596 is perhaps the deepest way to take advantage of our 0:22:00.636 --> 0:22:07.996 ability to perspective. Take notice that even as perfectionists are 0:22:08.156 --> 0:22:13.196 super with the self whose viewpoint they are sitting in, 0:22:13.676 --> 0:22:19.916 all of us, including perfectionists, are remarkably able to make 0:22:19.956 --> 0:22:25.836 exceptions for ourselves to recognize that something that objectively speaking 0:22:25.996 --> 0:22:30.316 would be wrong or problematic or unfair is, in our 0:22:30.436 --> 0:22:34.676 particular case, being done for this enormous set of reasons 0:22:34.716 --> 0:22:40.556 to which only we have access. So the observation that 0:22:40.636 --> 0:22:44.476 the way we deal in a very practical sense with 0:22:44.636 --> 0:22:49.276 perfectionism is to have ready to hand at all times 0:22:49.556 --> 0:22:53.036