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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Thanks to everyone who listened to the most recent season

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Speaker 2: of The Happiness Lab, which was all about the well

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Speaker 2: being challenges that I struggle with most. I've learned a

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Speaker 2: lot from making that series, but I got to admit

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Speaker 2: at times it was pretty hard. I know it's healthy

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Speaker 2: to be vulnerable and talk about your problems, but it's

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Speaker 2: often easier said than done, which is exactly what I'll

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Speaker 2: be discussing on this week's episode with my dear colleague,

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Speaker 2: the Yale philosopher and cognitive scientist ta mark Endler. I'm

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Speaker 2: guessing you've probably heard Tamorro and The Happiness Lab before.

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Speaker 2: In the past, we've talked about what famous philosophers like

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Speaker 2: Socrates and Aristotle said about happiness. But as my close friend,

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Speaker 2: Tamar also had lots of interesting ideas about the problems

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Speaker 2: I decided to tackle in the last season.

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Speaker 1: So when Tomorrow and I were.

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Speaker 2: Invited to give a joint talk at the twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: four International Festival of Arts and Ideas, New Haven, Connecticut,

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Speaker 2: we thought, why not reflect.

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Speaker 1: On what we've both learned from these personal shows.

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Speaker 2: The first of Little Arts and Ideas kindly allowed us

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Speaker 2: to share our conversation, so now you can listen to

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Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much to all of you who are

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Speaker 3: joining us here. It really feels like we are among friends.

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Speaker 3: But one of the things you may or may not

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Speaker 3: know is that, in addition to being professional colleagues who've

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Speaker 3: done a lot of work together, Laurie and I are

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Speaker 3: actually very close friends. And in fact, we're such close

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Speaker 3: friends that we often finish one another's sentences. So what

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Speaker 3: we want to do today is actually have a conversation

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Speaker 3: with you that's much more intimate and personal than we

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Speaker 3: have ever done before in a public setting. Everything that

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Speaker 3: we say to one another is going to be in

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Speaker 3: warmed by the academic research that we do. But our

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Speaker 3: goal in speaking before you today is really to give

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Speaker 3: some autobiographical information about our own experiences, our own struggles,

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Speaker 3: and our own challenges. And Laurie has set the tone

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Speaker 3: for doing this with her recent podcast.

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Speaker 2: The Happiness Lab is my podcast where I talk about

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Speaker 2: so many things in the science of happiness. We focused

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Speaker 2: on lots of different topics, but just this summer we

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Speaker 2: started a new season. It's a whole season about the

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Speaker 2: happiness challenges that I face personally, and this is a

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Speaker 2: spot where you might be saying, like wait a minute,

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Speaker 2: hang on, Like I signed up really early for this

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Speaker 2: event to talk to a happiness expert.

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Speaker 1: How is the happiness expert.

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Speaker 2: So messed up when it comes to having a challenges

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Speaker 2: like you know, did I not train?

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Speaker 1: Like what's going on?

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Speaker 2: And it turns out that that's in part because I'm human, right,

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Speaker 2: we all struggle with happiness challenges. But it also comes

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Speaker 2: about do I to A kind of funny puzzle that

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Speaker 2: comes up in cognitive science is actually a puzzle that

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Speaker 2: Tomorrow and I have written about.

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Speaker 1: I believe it was.

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Speaker 3: In fact, I think it was our first paper that

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Speaker 3: we ever wrote together. And it's basically about how it

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Speaker 3: is possible to have theoretical knowledge and lack practical knowledge.

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Speaker 3: So there's a great tradition in ancient Greek philosophy of

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Speaker 3: distinguishing between knowledge of abstract things, a kind of theoretical

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Speaker 3: wisdom which goes by various names, a knowledge of practical things,

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Speaker 3: of how to flourish, of how to live, which is

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Speaker 3: in certain parts of the Greek tradition called phronesis practical wisdom.

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Speaker 3: And what's interesting about practical wisdom is that it comes

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Speaker 3: about through different sorts of activities than theoretical wisdom does.

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Speaker 3: And so Laurie and I were at the late Great

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Speaker 3: La Fitness, who belonged to La Fitness in Hamden, right

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Speaker 3: near the Stop and shop. So we were at La

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Speaker 3: or La Fitness, engaging in bodily exercise, and I was

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Speaker 3: talking to Laurie about this ancient philosophical tradition and basically

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Speaker 3: telling her how in ancient Greek philosophy there's a distinctionion

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Speaker 3: roughly between book smarts and street smarts.

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Speaker 4: And Laurie said, oh, my.

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Speaker 3: God, did you know there's also an eighties television show

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Speaker 3: about that? And of course I did not know there

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Speaker 3: was an eighties television show because I grew up with

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Speaker 3: parents who bought a TV to watch Nixon resign and

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Speaker 3: then put it away.

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Speaker 4: But it was that eighties.

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Speaker 3: Television show, which Laurie will describe, that gave us the

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Speaker 3: idea for the first joint paper that we wrote, which

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Speaker 3: is about why Laurie, even though she's the world's happiness expert,

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Speaker 3: is still having trouble making it work in her life.

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Speaker 2: Anybody who want to guess to get guess what the

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Speaker 2: eighties TV show was, it was actually Gi Joe.

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Speaker 1: It was eighties cartoon.

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Speaker 2: To be fair, why is the Gijo television show about

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Speaker 2: this disconnect between kind of head knowledge and street knowledge?

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Speaker 2: If you remember the g I Joe? How many you

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Speaker 2: have actually seen the g I Joe TV show? Okay,

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Speaker 2: we're seeing some hands some of you. Some of you

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Speaker 2: are a little older than eighties TV shows.

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Speaker 1: That's cool. Some of you are a little younger.

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Speaker 2: They're like, So g I Jo was the show with

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Speaker 2: a bunch of like army guys who did kind of

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Speaker 2: army guy heroic things. But it's most famous for how

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Speaker 2: each cartoon episode ended. It ended some of you're not

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Speaker 2: It ended with this public service announcement which taught kids

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Speaker 2: really important things in the eighties, like don't talk to

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Speaker 2: strangers or look both ways when you cross your street.

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Speaker 1: It was really basic stuff.

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Speaker 2: But Gi Jo would explain this big public service message

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Speaker 2: to their kids and the kids would say, thank you,

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Speaker 2: g I Joe.

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Speaker 1: Now I know, and g I Jo would say and

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Speaker 1: knowing is half the battle, and go gi Joe, Now

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Speaker 1: that's all.

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Speaker 2: I would be like, oh, now I remember. But this

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Speaker 2: was the catchphrase, Knowing is half the battle. When you

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Speaker 2: know a thing, you're most of the way there, and

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Speaker 2: what tomorrow I wrote in our you know now pretty

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Speaker 2: well known. I think paper is the idea that that

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Speaker 2: statement knowing is half the battle is a fallacy, one

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Speaker 2: that we've christened the g I Joe fallacy.

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Speaker 1: Knowing is not half the battle, right, you know? Take

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Speaker 1: take my fitness.

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Speaker 2: I know what I should be eating, I know I

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Speaker 2: should get to the gym all the time.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't mean I do it right.

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Speaker 2: We know so many things about the stuff that we

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Speaker 2: should be doing, but that doesn't translate into the practical

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Speaker 2: doing those things. And this is what I feel like

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Speaker 2: I'm struggling with a little bit when it comes to

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Speaker 2: the happiness science. Obviously I know about this stuff, right,

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Speaker 2: I teach an Ivy League institution, all these tips and

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Speaker 2: strategies that we should be using to feel better and

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Speaker 2: protect our mental health and so on. But it's still

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Speaker 2: really hard to put those strategies into practice. And so

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Speaker 2: this is what we wanted to get intimate about today.

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Speaker 2: Does that sound good a reason to it?

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Speaker 4: Not that, right?

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Speaker 3: So one of the really cool things about the GI

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Speaker 3: Joe fallacy is that it's self referential. It applies to itself.

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Speaker 3: So I traced it through the entire Western philosophical tradition,

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Speaker 3: all the places where somebody had noticed this.

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Speaker 4: The Gi Joe fallacy is true of itself.

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Speaker 3: The fact that we know that knowing is less than

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Speaker 3: half the battle doesn't mean that we thereby assimilate that

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Speaker 3: knowledge into our behavior. And the key challenge of flourishing

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Speaker 3: in the ancient philosophical tradition of the West, in Greece

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Speaker 3: and Rome, and I would say the key challenge of

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Speaker 3: flourishing and happiness in contemporary cognitive science discourse is the

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Speaker 3: question of how you speak, how you train, how you

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Speaker 3: control the aspects of yourself that are not subject to

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Speaker 3: rational control.

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Speaker 4: It's really easy.

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Speaker 3: To understand the Gi Joe fallacy. It's really easy to

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Speaker 3: listen to Laurie's podcast. It's really easy to read a

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Speaker 3: bunch of neuroscience articles, and doing that is less than

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Speaker 3: half the battle. So a lot of ancient wisdom tradition

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Speaker 3: work in Western philosophy, things like Plato and Aristytle, are

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Speaker 3: actually about how you make things stick in a way

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Speaker 3: that you have them present at the moment that matters

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Speaker 3: in lots of ways. The challenge of understanding in a

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Speaker 3: practical sense is the challenge of having the thought that

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Speaker 3: you want to have the reaction that you want to

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Speaker 3: have ready to hand at the moment that you needed

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Speaker 3: You can do all the rehearsing you want of staying

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Speaker 3: calm in the face of things that enrage you. And

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Speaker 3: if that skill is not ready to hand at the

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Speaker 3: moment where you are in a conversation with a loved

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Speaker 3: one who says something painful to you, it has not

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Speaker 3: properly served you. So the very first explicitly self help

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Speaker 3: book was actually called the ready to handbook.

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Speaker 4: It's a little book by.

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Speaker 3: A philosopher named Epicteitis, was written about two thousand years ago.

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Speaker 3: It was called in Greek the Enchiridion. What that means

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Speaker 3: is handbook, ready to handbook. It was meant to give

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Speaker 3: you a bunch of skills that would be available to

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Speaker 3: you at the moment that you needed them. And what

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Speaker 3: Laurie has been working on in the most recent aspect

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Speaker 3: of her podcast is really a set of reflections on

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Speaker 3: making things ready to hand. She's been focusing on five

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Speaker 3: topics and what we want to try to do today

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Speaker 3: is to get through at least three of them. We

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Speaker 3: may make it to four, we may even we'll see

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Speaker 3: not if I keep going on like this make it

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Speaker 3: to five.

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Speaker 4: But let me just let you know what.

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Speaker 3: They are so that you have a sense of the

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Speaker 3: issues that we want to discuss today. So the first

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Speaker 3: is the topic of perfectionism and how we deal with

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Speaker 3: expectations that we have for ourselves that are hard to meet.

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Speaker 3: The second is the question about the relation between your

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Speaker 3: present and future self. How do we rightly decide what

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Speaker 3: we do now that will help us later, what we

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Speaker 3: do now that will harm us later? How do we

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Speaker 3: balance ourself across ten third is the issue of stress

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Speaker 3: and how we represent it to ourselves and manage it.

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Speaker 3: The fourth is the issue of busyness and how we

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Speaker 3: manage in a world where we may feel over committed.

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Speaker 3: The fifth, because this is arts and ideas and we

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Speaker 3: don't want to shy away from the biggest ones, is

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Speaker 3: the question of how we think about our own mortality

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Speaker 3: and the ways in which reflecting on our own mortality

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Speaker 3: can help us to live each moment of our non

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Speaker 3: mortality as well as we can.

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Speaker 4: So I want to start.

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Speaker 3: By asking Laurie to say a few words about perfectionism.

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Speaker 2: How many folks and audience think of themselves as a

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Speaker 2: little perfectionists. A show of hands. I'm seeing a lot

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Speaker 2: of hands. Okay, yeah, I mean I don't need to

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Speaker 2: even explain, right, Like, I'm a type AIVY League professor

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Speaker 2: who cares about a lot, and I set really high

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Speaker 2: standards for myself. That's the way I say, in a

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Speaker 2: kind way, Oh, I set high standards for myself. It

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Speaker 2: sounds like the kind of thing you say in an

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Speaker 2: interview when someone asks what's your worst trait and you say, oh,

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Speaker 2: that sounds good. But the reality out of it inside

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Speaker 2: is much different. The reality of it inside is that

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Speaker 2: I'm incredibly self critical. It's really hard to figure out

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Speaker 2: anything I do that feels like it's above bar right.

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Speaker 2: Everything I do is like, well, I could have done

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Speaker 2: that better, I know, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And that causes me to do a couple things that

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Speaker 1: I don't like.

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Speaker 2: When is it causes me to shy away from anything

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Speaker 2: where I feel like I might screw up. Right, there's

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Speaker 2: always like new hobbies or new cool things I want

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Speaker 2: to try to be like, oh, I'm not gonna be

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Speaker 2: good at that, and I kind of run away. It

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Speaker 2: also means that I constantly feel kind of yucky because

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Speaker 2: my internal monologue is this sort of terrible, mean drill

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Speaker 2: sergeant who's kind of yelling at me all the time.

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Speaker 2: And so even though it's kind of in some ways

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Speaker 2: something that we get a little bit proud of, the

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Speaker 2: person I interview for my episode, Thomas Kurrn says it's

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Speaker 2: our society's favorite flaw, perfectionism. Like, it's actually something that

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Speaker 2: makes me feel kind of crappy on a regular basis

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Speaker 2: and something that I've wanted to fix.

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Speaker 3: So I had a wonderful example of perfectionism hit me today.

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Speaker 3: So I actually have to be in Denver tonight, and

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Speaker 3: so right after this event, I'm going to go down

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Speaker 3: to look Hard Airport and fly out. So while I

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Speaker 3: am away, I have a house sitter who is a

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Speaker 3: student who's probably going to listen to this podcast and

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Speaker 3: hear this story. So I'm incredibly anxious that my house

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Speaker 3: be super clean and organized, and I can't bear for

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Speaker 3: her to open my fridge and not see the shelves

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Speaker 3: perfectly polished. And for some reason, I got obsessed this

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Speaker 3: morning with the fact that I had an extra head

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Speaker 3: of ridicio in the fridge, which I had purchased it

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Speaker 3: had been very expensive. I bought it at Nika's and

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Speaker 3: I hadn't eaten it, and I literally called Laurie and said,

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Speaker 3: could you come over before and ideas talk to take

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Speaker 3: the ridicio so that I don't let it go to

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Speaker 3: waste in my fridge in a way that is visible

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Speaker 3: in this undergraduate research assistant who's going to be house sitting. Now,

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Speaker 3: what's funny about that story is that both my anxiety

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Speaker 3: and my instinctive reaction were due to a particular deep

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Speaker 3: fact about human beings, which is what other people think

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Speaker 3: of us matters to us. The philosopher Plato spoke of

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Speaker 3: our soul as having three parts. He called them reason, spirit,

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Speaker 3: and appetite. Reason is the part of you that responds

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Speaker 3: to rational concerns and information and facts. Appetite is the

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Speaker 3: part of you that basically responds to your need to

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Speaker 3: keep going that's roughly food and procreation. And spirit is

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Speaker 3: the part of you that responds to the social world

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Speaker 3: around you. So Plato recognized that a deep segment of

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Speaker 3: our motivation as human beings results from our desire to

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Speaker 3: be judged affirmatively by others.

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Speaker 4: And what's really.

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Speaker 3: Cool is that just as that led to detriment this

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Speaker 3: morning as I was anxiously polishing the coffee filter, polishing

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Speaker 3: the coffee filter because I was sure that this lovely

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Speaker 3: nineteen year old young woman must come from a home

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Speaker 3: with a polished coffee filter, not with a dirty coffee

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Speaker 3: written coffee filter.

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Speaker 2: Shacsay had like coffee filters, I caro when I showed up,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, fixed this before we go on stage.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, go ahead.

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Speaker 3: I was so concerned with the gaze of another that

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Speaker 3: I lost track of a lesson that Plato's student Aristotle

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Speaker 3: puts forward, which is the idea that a friend can

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Speaker 3: serve as a second self. Aristotle says, a friend is

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Speaker 3: a second self. It magnet defies our joy and cuts

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Speaker 3: in half our sorrow.

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Speaker 4: So I want to.

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Speaker 3: Let Laurie give you a sense of the science behind

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Speaker 3: why the right thing for me to do when I

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Speaker 3: was anxious about my ridicio was to reach out to

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Speaker 3: someone else and say the shameful words.

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Speaker 4: I bought a.

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Speaker 3: Head of ridicuo at Nika's that I.

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Speaker 4: Did not eat.

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Speaker 2: The most sad thing was it because we were prepping.

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Speaker 2: We actually didn't end up eating still in the fridge,

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Speaker 2: but we're working on the grace that comes with that.

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Speaker 4: No, I mean I think you know.

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Speaker 2: Tomorrow pointed out that this issue of being worried about

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Speaker 2: what other people think is part of human nature. But

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Speaker 2: one of the things we also learned in the science

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Speaker 2: is that this particular aspect of our perfectionism is getting

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Speaker 2: worse over time. Doctor Curran, who I had on the show,

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Speaker 2: did this very famous paper where he's a professor in

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Speaker 2: the UK. He deals with students just to the way

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Speaker 2: that Tomorrow and I do, and he started having this

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Speaker 2: sense that, like, the modern college student is like a

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Speaker 2: little bit more perfectionists than they were five years ago,

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Speaker 2: ten years ago, and so on.

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Speaker 1: And he said, well, could that really be?

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Speaker 2: I wonder if there's survey data about that, And so

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Speaker 2: he went all the way back to the eighties and

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Speaker 2: looked at every paper that gave college students a survey

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Speaker 2: about perfectionism, and just like tight traded up over time.

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Speaker 1: And what he's found is that since the nineteen eighties, since.

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Speaker 2: Gijoe was on the air, overall perfectionism has gone up

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Speaker 2: in young people about thirty percent, which is pretty intense.

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Speaker 2: But he also found that there's one part of perfectionism

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Speaker 2: that's going up the most. We have different parts of perfections,

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Speaker 2: is like I have these high standards for myself, right,

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Speaker 2: or perhaps I hold high standards for other people. We

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Speaker 2: often talk about like a perfectionist boss who expects you

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Speaker 2: to do too much. But the part that's most going

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Speaker 2: up in young people today is the opposite of that.

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Speaker 1: I assume that other people expect a lot of me.

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Speaker 2: Right, if my students coming over my house, they're going

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Speaker 2: to judge me for what my coffee pop looks like

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Speaker 2: and so on. That's the part that's gone up the

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Speaker 2: most since the nineteen eighties, which is a problem. It

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Speaker 2: means not only do we have the kind of human

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Speaker 2: nature that is really worried about what other people are thinking,

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Speaker 2: our misconception about that has gotten worse over time. And

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Speaker 2: you can probably make guesses about why that is, things

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Speaker 2: like being on social media all the time and having

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Speaker 2: the gaze of others on you in a very special way.

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Speaker 2: But the way you solve this, of course, is to

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Speaker 2: try to harness not some like general kind of misconceived

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Speaker 2: idea of the other who's really being judge of you.

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Speaker 2: You bring to mind a real second friend, right to

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Speaker 2: mark think about, well, what's Lauria're going to really think

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Speaker 2: about the Ridicia if it was her staying in my house,

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Speaker 2: which she really judged me, and she'd be like, actually,

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Speaker 2: probably I'm not back. I actually don't have any vegetables

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Speaker 2: in my frider now, so I definitely would have be judging.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I should be like, oh, when I think

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Speaker 2: about myself and my own achievements from the perspective of

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Speaker 2: a friend, now all of a sudden, I can give

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Speaker 2: myself grace. And it turns out that this is the

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Speaker 2: practice that you bring to mind if you want to

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Speaker 2: fight your perfectionism. You actually think, you know this terrible voice,

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Speaker 2: this inner drill sergeant in your head is kind of

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Speaker 2: yelling at you. You give them a voice like, okay,

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Speaker 2: you know our drill sergeant voice. I'm going to summon

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Speaker 2: the Tomorrow voice, like what would Tamorrow tell me?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And just the instant of doing that is a really

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Speaker 2: key way to fight your inner critic and bring in

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Speaker 2: somebody who cares about you. And I love this idea

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Speaker 2: of kind of using self talk as though you're hearing

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Speaker 2: from a friend, because that kind of self talk isn't coddling, right,

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Speaker 2: Tomorrow wouldn't judge me for having a erdicio in my fridge.

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Speaker 1: But if I was truly messing something up tomorrow, woul

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Speaker 1: want to talk to me about it.

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Speaker 2: She wouldn't scream at me like a drill sergeant in

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Speaker 2: the way I often do with my perfectionist voice. But

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Speaker 2: she'd get curious. She'd be like, what is going on?

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Speaker 2: We need to address this, Let's talk about it. And

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Speaker 2: so harnessing that friend voice allows you to do something

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Speaker 2: really important. You're shutting off the drill sergeant perfectionist voice

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Speaker 2: that's demanding too much of you, But you have a

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Speaker 2: curious voice there that's wise, that really is going to

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Speaker 2: push you if you needed. And so it's this perfect

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Speaker 2: balance between kind of overcddling but kind of being too

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Speaker 2: drill sergeanty. On the other hand, ability to adopt a

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Speaker 2: different persona in order to talk to yourself is an

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Speaker 2: important skill.

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Speaker 1: It's also one that can improve your happiness.

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Speaker 2: But I'll let Tamar explain more when the Happiness Lab

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Speaker 2: returns in a moment. So far, in our talk at

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Speaker 2: the International Festival of Arts and Ideas, my friend Tamar

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Speaker 2: Genler and I have discussed why talking to yourself like

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Speaker 2: a compassionate friend can help you fight perfectionism, but tomorrow

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Speaker 2: thinks this technique can apply and lots of other situations too.

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Speaker 3: It's actually the most important general skill that we can acquire,

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Speaker 3: because it's roughly a skill of perspective taking. We spend

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Speaker 3: our entire lives viewing the world from inside our own heads,

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Speaker 3: from the perspective of the world that is unique to us,

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Speaker 3: and when we're young children, infants, we're so certain that

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Speaker 3: the world is in accord with our perception of it

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Speaker 3: that when we cover our own eyes, we think we're invisible.

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Speaker 3: The moment of coming to be a social being is

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Speaker 3: the moment of recognizing that, in addition to your own eyes,

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Speaker 3: there are eyes of others, and the capacity to have

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Speaker 3: ready to hand the eyes and voices of others. The

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Speaker 3: other perspectives that might be taken at both the instance

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Speaker 3: when you are being too easy on yourself and the

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Speaker 3: instance of when you are being too hard on yourself

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Speaker 3: is perhaps the deepest way to take advantage of our

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Speaker 3: ability to perspective. Take notice that even as perfectionists are

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Speaker 3: super with the self whose viewpoint they are sitting in,

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Speaker 3: all of us, including perfectionists, are remarkably able to make

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Speaker 3: exceptions for ourselves to recognize that something that objectively speaking

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Speaker 3: would be wrong or problematic or unfair is, in our

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Speaker 3: particular case, being done for this enormous set of reasons

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Speaker 3: to which only we have access. So the observation that

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Speaker 3: the way we deal in a very practical sense with

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Speaker 3: perfectionism is to have ready to hand at all times

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Speaker 3: the voice of another right. It's like wearing a bracelet

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Speaker 3: that says, what would LORI say, or if you are

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Speaker 3: a member of a faith tradition, what would the figure

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Speaker 3: who represents goodness and truth and understanding in my faith

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Speaker 3: tradition do?

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Speaker 4: Or say?

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Speaker 3: That capacity to use the perspective of another the very

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Speaker 3: practical advice think about what your friend would say is

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Speaker 3: part of the general skill of being able to recognize

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Speaker 3: that there are multiple perspectives in the world. Now, one

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Speaker 3: of the interesting ways that this plays out is actually

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Speaker 3: with regard to the second dilemma that Laurie has been confronting,

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Speaker 3: which is that, in addition to being friends with other people,

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Speaker 3: that is, beings who exist at the same moment we do,

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Speaker 3: but aren't us, we're kind of also stuck forever being

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Speaker 3: friends with, or at least being affected by our past

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Speaker 3: selves and our future selves. Roughly speaking, most of the

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Speaker 3: stuff that our past self does renowns on our present self,

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Speaker 3: and most of the things that our presence self does

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Speaker 3: is going to determine what happens to our future self.

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Speaker 3: And the question of how to think of selves across

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Speaker 3: time is the second fundamental issue that Laurie's been addressing

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Speaker 3: in her podcast.

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Speaker 2: And when I started thinking about this issue, I realized

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Speaker 2: that even though I'm very kind to other people, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not judging about tomorrow, about what she has in

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Speaker 2: fridge and so on, there's actually like one person out

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Speaker 2: there that I'm really mean to future Laurie. I assume

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Speaker 2: future Laurie loves going at the gym. She's not gonna

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Speaker 2: mind taking on that terrible task that I agreed to

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Speaker 2: over email, because I just want to get the person

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Speaker 2: over email, like she's happy to do this, like a

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Speaker 2: really big work project. She is moral and not so

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Speaker 2: busy and really excited to do all the stuff that

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Speaker 2: President Laurie doesn't want to do at all.

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Speaker 1: But of course, you know, true perspective taking would lean

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Speaker 1: to this. This is fact that that Laurie doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to deal with this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Either, And so what happens is that it's kind of

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00:24:57,996 --> 00:25:00,996
Speaker 2: like the Lauri's are all at this like negotiation table,

441
00:25:01,316 --> 00:25:03,516
Speaker 2: but I President Laurie and the only one with a voice.

442
00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:05,596
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh yeah, future Laurie would love to do that,

443
00:25:05,636 --> 00:25:11,116
Speaker 2: and somewhere she's off in some like other dimension. So

444
00:25:11,196 --> 00:25:14,236
Speaker 2: the episode was an attempt to deal with like my

445
00:25:14,236 --> 00:25:16,796
Speaker 2: myopia right the fact that I'm really near sighted. I'm

446
00:25:16,796 --> 00:25:19,596
Speaker 2: thinking about me right now and how can I get

447
00:25:19,676 --> 00:25:22,636
Speaker 2: nicer to my future self. But what I wound up

448
00:25:22,676 --> 00:25:24,876
Speaker 2: realizing in this episode is that I was focused on

449
00:25:24,916 --> 00:25:28,196
Speaker 2: all these cases of myopia right like present Laurie is

450
00:25:28,236 --> 00:25:29,996
Speaker 2: like kind of really messing with future Lari.

451
00:25:30,276 --> 00:25:32,236
Speaker 1: But as I did the episode, I started to think.

452
00:25:32,116 --> 00:25:35,676
Speaker 2: About other cases where I'm not being myopic, but I

453
00:25:35,756 --> 00:25:39,876
Speaker 2: might instead be being hyperopic, very far sighted. All those

454
00:25:39,916 --> 00:25:42,836
Speaker 2: evenings were trying to send one more email off, but

455
00:25:43,036 --> 00:25:45,516
Speaker 2: present Laurie could be hanging out with her husband. All

456
00:25:45,556 --> 00:25:48,956
Speaker 2: those cases where I got something nice and nice bottle

457
00:25:48,996 --> 00:25:51,236
Speaker 2: of wine or like a new dress, I feel like, oh,

458
00:25:51,396 --> 00:25:53,196
Speaker 2: it's not the right time right now to enjoy that.

459
00:25:53,476 --> 00:25:56,316
Speaker 2: I'll wait for future Lauri to enjoy that. There's all

460
00:25:56,316 --> 00:25:59,396
Speaker 2: these times where I'm kind of assuming future Laari will

461
00:25:59,436 --> 00:26:00,756
Speaker 2: get to enjoy this thing.

462
00:26:01,316 --> 00:26:03,356
Speaker 1: That means I'm kind of missing out on the present.

463
00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:05,796
Speaker 2: And so the episode is an interesting one because it

464
00:26:05,796 --> 00:26:08,356
Speaker 2: helped me realize I messed up both ways. I assumed

465
00:26:08,396 --> 00:26:11,676
Speaker 2: it was mostly being unkind to future Lauri, but sometimes

466
00:26:11,716 --> 00:26:13,956
Speaker 2: President Lauria is being unkind to herself on behalf of

467
00:26:13,996 --> 00:26:14,516
Speaker 2: future Laurie.

468
00:26:14,556 --> 00:26:16,036
Speaker 1: But if I could just talk to future Laurie, you'd

469
00:26:16,076 --> 00:26:18,276
Speaker 1: be like, don't do that on behalf of the either.

470
00:26:18,436 --> 00:26:21,596
Speaker 2: And so we in an episode talk about solutions, but tomorrow,

471
00:26:21,636 --> 00:26:22,956
Speaker 2: first I want to hear about you know, what did

472
00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:23,916
Speaker 2: the ancients say about this?

473
00:26:24,036 --> 00:26:25,396
Speaker 1: Did they have some insight?

474
00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:32,236
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the ancients are really interested in actually developing

475
00:26:32,436 --> 00:26:36,996
Speaker 3: habits that allow your past self, your present self, and

476
00:26:37,036 --> 00:26:41,636
Speaker 3: your future self to kind of equally divide both the

477
00:26:41,796 --> 00:26:45,196
Speaker 3: costs and the benefits of the things that are going

478
00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:49,636
Speaker 3: to be of long term value to you, So eating

479
00:26:49,756 --> 00:26:54,116
Speaker 3: healthy food, being deeply connected to those around you, being

480
00:26:54,116 --> 00:27:00,476
Speaker 3: an individual who exhibits character virtues like braveness or honesty

481
00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:06,636
Speaker 3: or justice. What the ancient philosopher Aristotle says to do

482
00:27:07,316 --> 00:27:11,596
Speaker 3: is to act like you already were the thing that

483
00:27:11,636 --> 00:27:15,036
Speaker 3: you wish to become fake it till you make it,

484
00:27:15,276 --> 00:27:19,956
Speaker 3: as the contemporary version calls it. But notice that that

485
00:27:20,516 --> 00:27:24,156
Speaker 3: is about creating intertemporal fairness.

486
00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:27,636
Speaker 4: Across sells. There is a set.

487
00:27:27,436 --> 00:27:32,596
Speaker 3: Of activities that may be locally unpleasant. The local activity

488
00:27:32,756 --> 00:27:36,356
Speaker 3: of engaging in exercise until your muscle hurts, the local

489
00:27:36,396 --> 00:27:42,036
Speaker 3: activity of holding back your desire to indulge in a

490
00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:47,996
Speaker 3: particular way, the local activity of tamping your emotion. If

491
00:27:48,076 --> 00:27:53,876
Speaker 3: you practice doing that now, it becomes natural to you.

492
00:27:54,356 --> 00:27:58,436
Speaker 3: It becomes part of who you are, and it solves

493
00:27:58,636 --> 00:28:04,756
Speaker 3: some of the intertemporal problem. Notice that, as with self regulation,

494
00:28:05,676 --> 00:28:09,836
Speaker 3: so with self care. Both Laurie and I laughed when

495
00:28:09,876 --> 00:28:12,956
Speaker 3: Laurie said, whenever I buy a bath bomb, I think, well,

496
00:28:13,116 --> 00:28:15,556
Speaker 3: but I can't use that now.

497
00:28:15,676 --> 00:28:18,396
Speaker 4: How many of you have beside your bathtub?

498
00:28:18,916 --> 00:28:23,236
Speaker 3: Yes, Shelley Kalum, my next door neighbor has beside our bathtub,

499
00:28:23,556 --> 00:28:28,076
Speaker 3: many many bathballs. What Aristotle would tell you to do

500
00:28:28,156 --> 00:28:31,636
Speaker 3: is to create a ritual. On Thursdays, I take a

501
00:28:31,716 --> 00:28:34,476
Speaker 3: warm bath with my bathball. I'm not going to use

502
00:28:34,476 --> 00:28:36,556
Speaker 3: them up too fast. I'm not going to use them

503
00:28:36,636 --> 00:28:39,396
Speaker 3: up too slowly. I've made them part of a routine.

504
00:28:39,756 --> 00:28:42,196
Speaker 3: I've made them part of a ritual. I've made them

505
00:28:42,276 --> 00:28:47,916
Speaker 3: part of a habit. When you are trying to distribute

506
00:28:47,956 --> 00:28:52,956
Speaker 3: things across as Lori points out, individuals, only one of

507
00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:56,116
Speaker 3: whom is at the table at that given moment, only

508
00:28:56,396 --> 00:29:01,436
Speaker 3: present you is there. The best way for present you

509
00:29:02,076 --> 00:29:05,676
Speaker 3: to relate both to past you and to future you

510
00:29:06,036 --> 00:29:11,436
Speaker 3: is to engage in these processes where the world causes

511
00:29:11,476 --> 00:29:16,596
Speaker 3: you to split the resources across time. You can use ritual,

512
00:29:16,996 --> 00:29:19,996
Speaker 3: you can use habit, you can use routie.

513
00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:21,996
Speaker 2: And so I think that those are the kind of

514
00:29:22,076 --> 00:29:24,836
Speaker 2: things that we talk about in the episode. I actually

515
00:29:24,876 --> 00:29:28,516
Speaker 2: tried a different hack that was probably not available to

516
00:29:28,596 --> 00:29:30,916
Speaker 2: Aristotle at the time, or at least not in the

517
00:29:30,916 --> 00:29:33,156
Speaker 2: way I tried it, but it does get back to

518
00:29:33,196 --> 00:29:35,396
Speaker 2: one of his insights. It goes back to the importance

519
00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:39,276
Speaker 2: of perspective taking. Right, if I could really bring Futulaari

520
00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:42,076
Speaker 2: to the negotiating table and like talk to her and

521
00:29:42,156 --> 00:29:45,036
Speaker 2: really see what she wanted, maybe I would do better.

522
00:29:45,476 --> 00:29:48,076
Speaker 2: And the technology that wasn't available at Aristotle's time, even

523
00:29:48,116 --> 00:29:50,236
Speaker 2: though he kind of realized this whole second self thing,

524
00:29:50,836 --> 00:29:55,356
Speaker 2: was to go on, say Snapchat and use a future

525
00:29:55,396 --> 00:29:58,156
Speaker 2: filter where you can look at himself Aristotle, young Aristotl

526
00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:00,996
Speaker 2: and fast forward to what he looks like when he's seventy.

527
00:30:01,356 --> 00:30:03,836
Speaker 1: Aristotol obviously didn't have iPhones, but I did.

528
00:30:03,676 --> 00:30:05,076
Speaker 2: And so I could go on there and use these

529
00:30:05,236 --> 00:30:06,996
Speaker 2: How many people in the audience have used these kind

530
00:30:06,996 --> 00:30:08,956
Speaker 2: of aging filters and looked at you if you're a

531
00:30:09,796 --> 00:30:14,156
Speaker 2: there's like three college students and they're like, I had

532
00:30:14,196 --> 00:30:16,476
Speaker 2: never done this either, but I did this. I encourage

533
00:30:16,516 --> 00:30:17,836
Speaker 2: you to kind of try it out. If you've never

534
00:30:17,876 --> 00:30:20,636
Speaker 2: done this. You basically are looking at a little video

535
00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:24,436
Speaker 2: of yourself as a selfie, and you become like thirty

536
00:30:24,516 --> 00:30:27,036
Speaker 2: or forty years older, like through these aging filters. And

537
00:30:27,076 --> 00:30:29,956
Speaker 2: I stay had a very interesting reaction, which is like,

538
00:30:30,316 --> 00:30:32,276
Speaker 2: you know, I'm looking at this picture of future Lauria

539
00:30:32,276 --> 00:30:34,396
Speaker 2: as though I would be looking at a FaceTime call

540
00:30:34,396 --> 00:30:37,036
Speaker 2: with tomorrow, Like she's there, she's my friend, and she

541
00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:41,276
Speaker 2: has preferences. And so this is actually some lovely work

542
00:30:41,316 --> 00:30:44,156
Speaker 2: by hal Hirshfield, who's done this in experimental context. He

543
00:30:44,236 --> 00:30:47,436
Speaker 2: shows people older versions of themselves, and he finds that

544
00:30:47,476 --> 00:30:51,436
Speaker 2: they wind up solving the same kinds of like temporal

545
00:30:51,596 --> 00:30:54,876
Speaker 2: choice problems that Aristotle was so concerned with. They wind

546
00:30:54,956 --> 00:30:57,996
Speaker 2: up saving more for retirement and one experiment for the

547
00:30:57,996 --> 00:31:00,116
Speaker 2: next month. After they've done this, they wind up eating

548
00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:03,156
Speaker 2: healthier and so on. And so this was maybe like

549
00:31:03,276 --> 00:31:06,596
Speaker 2: the high tech version of the ritualistic thing that Aristotle

550
00:31:06,636 --> 00:31:09,036
Speaker 2: wanted us all to do. But given that it's available

551
00:31:09,156 --> 00:31:11,156
Speaker 2: on all of your smartphones, worth trying out.

552
00:31:11,796 --> 00:31:15,436
Speaker 3: And one of the crazy things that that brings out

553
00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:20,596
Speaker 3: is how powerful how we represent the world as being

554
00:31:21,316 --> 00:31:24,276
Speaker 3: is to how we experience the world. Right, it wasn't

555
00:31:24,276 --> 00:31:26,876
Speaker 3: a fact already that thirty years from now, Laurie is

556
00:31:26,876 --> 00:31:30,756
Speaker 3: going to be thirty years older, but bringing that vividly

557
00:31:31,196 --> 00:31:36,196
Speaker 3: before your mind, bringing that into active awareness, causes it

558
00:31:36,396 --> 00:31:41,076
Speaker 3: to play a role in your thinking. And one of

559
00:31:41,116 --> 00:31:45,876
Speaker 3: the really cool things in Laurie's episode on We'll turn

560
00:31:45,956 --> 00:31:50,996
Speaker 3: to our third example now, stress is the work of

561
00:31:51,236 --> 00:31:53,716
Speaker 3: a contemporary psychologist helps.

562
00:31:53,516 --> 00:31:57,236
Speaker 4: Show how powerful how we.

563
00:31:57,116 --> 00:32:01,836
Speaker 3: Represent an experience as being can be on how that

564
00:32:02,076 --> 00:32:05,156
Speaker 3: experience affects us. Do you want to talk about some

565
00:32:05,316 --> 00:32:07,676
Speaker 3: of the alio chrom work on stress.

566
00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:09,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, And first, maybe this is one I don't need

567
00:32:09,796 --> 00:32:11,236
Speaker 2: to set up right. I was going to tell you,

568
00:32:11,276 --> 00:32:13,676
Speaker 2: like I'm really stressed out, but I'm guessing.

569
00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:14,956
Speaker 1: A lot of you are about to laugh right now.

570
00:32:14,996 --> 00:32:17,636
Speaker 2: Anybody out there feel a little stressed out right now?

571
00:32:18,076 --> 00:32:19,716
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I thought, right, Like.

572
00:32:19,756 --> 00:32:21,756
Speaker 2: Stress, it affects us all, And I think one of

573
00:32:21,796 --> 00:32:24,156
Speaker 2: the reasons that you're all laughing is like it affects

574
00:32:24,236 --> 00:32:24,556
Speaker 2: us all.

575
00:32:24,596 --> 00:32:25,756
Speaker 1: But it's we don't think.

576
00:32:25,556 --> 00:32:28,276
Speaker 2: Of it as this wonderful experience, right, It's not like

577
00:32:28,316 --> 00:32:31,876
Speaker 2: we think of being stressed out as our body's reaction

578
00:32:32,036 --> 00:32:35,516
Speaker 2: to protect us against the bad things and pump luclose

579
00:32:35,556 --> 00:32:36,676
Speaker 2: into our blood.

580
00:32:36,356 --> 00:32:37,516
Speaker 1: When we need it the most.

581
00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:41,356
Speaker 2: Like it's not especially designed evolve system to give us

582
00:32:41,356 --> 00:32:43,676
Speaker 2: the energy we need. Well, we really need to push

583
00:32:43,756 --> 00:32:46,036
Speaker 2: it to the metal. That's not how we think about stress.

584
00:32:46,156 --> 00:32:49,956
Speaker 2: But if you're a biologist looking at the autonomic nervous system,

585
00:32:50,316 --> 00:32:53,356
Speaker 2: you might say exactly that about stress. We think of

586
00:32:53,396 --> 00:32:55,876
Speaker 2: stress as debilitating, right. We think it's there to kind

587
00:32:55,876 --> 00:32:57,676
Speaker 2: of mess us up and it's going to destroy us.

588
00:32:58,076 --> 00:33:00,956
Speaker 2: And that's impart because if you don't regulate your stress,

589
00:33:00,996 --> 00:33:03,596
Speaker 2: it does. Right. Chronic stress is really terrible for so

590
00:33:03,676 --> 00:33:06,836
Speaker 2: many aspects of our biology. But it turns out that

591
00:33:06,916 --> 00:33:10,116
Speaker 2: the act of thinking about stress as bad might be

592
00:33:10,196 --> 00:33:12,796
Speaker 2: one of the reasons that chronic stress is so bad.

593
00:33:13,116 --> 00:33:16,756
Speaker 2: This was an insight by the Stanford psychologist Alia Crumb,

594
00:33:16,996 --> 00:33:19,636
Speaker 2: who incidentally was a student here back in the day.

595
00:33:19,716 --> 00:33:23,116
Speaker 2: She actually worked with, you know, this unknown psychologist Peter Salada,

596
00:33:23,236 --> 00:33:25,516
Speaker 2: who is right now president of Yale.

597
00:33:25,956 --> 00:33:27,116
Speaker 1: But Alia had this insight.

598
00:33:27,116 --> 00:33:29,596
Speaker 2: You know, there's so many ways that our mind, if

599
00:33:29,636 --> 00:33:32,236
Speaker 2: we think about something in a certain way as good

600
00:33:32,316 --> 00:33:34,596
Speaker 2: or bad, in some ways, that thinking makes it.

601
00:33:34,676 --> 00:33:37,356
Speaker 1: So I wonder if that works the same way for stress.

602
00:33:37,916 --> 00:33:39,876
Speaker 2: And so she brought students into the lab gave them

603
00:33:39,916 --> 00:33:41,356
Speaker 2: some like stressful situation.

604
00:33:41,436 --> 00:33:43,956
Speaker 1: Often this is what's called the Streer stress test.

605
00:33:44,076 --> 00:33:46,436
Speaker 2: It means you bring a student into lab and like, great,

606
00:33:46,476 --> 00:33:48,796
Speaker 2: You're going to give it impromptu speech with no preparation.

607
00:33:48,876 --> 00:33:50,636
Speaker 2: There's going to be a really mean panel of judges

608
00:33:50,636 --> 00:33:52,996
Speaker 2: that watches you go for it. And what happens is

609
00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:55,356
Speaker 2: that immedia stress Reactually, you know, stress worm was like

610
00:33:55,396 --> 00:33:56,236
Speaker 2: cortusol kick in.

611
00:33:56,316 --> 00:33:57,796
Speaker 1: It's really scary.

612
00:33:57,996 --> 00:34:01,276
Speaker 2: Some students got the primer that tells them, rinds them

613
00:34:01,316 --> 00:34:04,676
Speaker 2: and remember how stress usually feels. It's pretty debilitating, right,

614
00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:06,796
Speaker 2: It's usually bad. Your heart's going to raise, it's not great.

615
00:34:06,916 --> 00:34:08,676
Speaker 2: The second group of students got a different way to

616
00:34:08,676 --> 00:34:11,076
Speaker 2: think about stress. They said, you know, you might feel

617
00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:13,636
Speaker 2: stressed out right now, but that's actually great. That means

618
00:34:13,716 --> 00:34:17,116
Speaker 2: your stress hormones are really pumping energy into your blood.

619
00:34:17,116 --> 00:34:19,116
Speaker 2: Like literally, there's going to be more glucose in your blood,

620
00:34:19,196 --> 00:34:21,556
Speaker 2: which will get more kind of energy up to your brain.

621
00:34:21,596 --> 00:34:23,316
Speaker 2: It will make you think a little bit better. It'll

622
00:34:23,316 --> 00:34:26,396
Speaker 2: help you out right. Stress can be enhancing. What she

623
00:34:26,396 --> 00:34:30,156
Speaker 2: didn't looked at is students' performance. They wind up performing better,

624
00:34:30,396 --> 00:34:33,636
Speaker 2: but more they wind up having not the same reaction

625
00:34:33,716 --> 00:34:36,436
Speaker 2: as the folks in the other condition whose chronic stress kind.

626
00:34:36,316 --> 00:34:36,956
Speaker 1: Of kept them going.

627
00:34:37,036 --> 00:34:39,996
Speaker 2: They performed badly, but then they showed these harsh effects

628
00:34:40,196 --> 00:34:42,236
Speaker 2: kind of days on when you look at them later.

629
00:34:42,876 --> 00:34:45,316
Speaker 2: Those students who thought that stress was good, all of

630
00:34:45,356 --> 00:34:48,276
Speaker 2: a sudden they experienced the stress, they do better and

631
00:34:48,316 --> 00:34:50,996
Speaker 2: they shut the stress off. One of the reasons that

632
00:34:51,436 --> 00:34:54,076
Speaker 2: our chronic stress is there is we might be thinking

633
00:34:54,116 --> 00:34:55,756
Speaker 2: about it in a way that it's going to really

634
00:34:55,836 --> 00:34:59,836
Speaker 2: harm us. One of the researchers I interview for the podcast,

635
00:35:00,116 --> 00:35:03,196
Speaker 2: David Yaeger, who's at UT Austin. He took this in

636
00:35:03,276 --> 00:35:05,356
Speaker 2: a different direction. He said, well, that's true maybe with

637
00:35:05,476 --> 00:35:08,396
Speaker 2: these messages about the fact that stress isn't actually that

638
00:35:08,476 --> 00:35:11,436
Speaker 2: bad when you look biologically, maybe we can actually stop

639
00:35:11,516 --> 00:35:14,876
Speaker 2: chronic stress in a population that we know experiences a

640
00:35:14,916 --> 00:35:17,836
Speaker 2: lot of stress. He actually worked with low income high

641
00:35:17,876 --> 00:35:21,196
Speaker 2: school students from marginalized identities, right, so these are students

642
00:35:21,196 --> 00:35:24,636
Speaker 2: who are just experiencing all kinds of stresses financial, social,

643
00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:26,916
Speaker 2: and these kinds of things in high school. He started

644
00:35:26,916 --> 00:35:29,476
Speaker 2: by giving them this primer that said, hey, you know,

645
00:35:29,556 --> 00:35:31,396
Speaker 2: stress can be really good when you experience it, and

646
00:35:31,436 --> 00:35:33,436
Speaker 2: it's good over time, you'll kind of get better at

647
00:35:33,436 --> 00:35:35,476
Speaker 2: dealing with it, a little bit of a growth mindset too.

648
00:35:35,996 --> 00:35:38,756
Speaker 2: And what he finds is that those high school students,

649
00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:41,036
Speaker 2: when they give journal entries later about the things that

650
00:35:41,076 --> 00:35:43,356
Speaker 2: are going on in their life, they wind up saying

651
00:35:43,436 --> 00:35:46,076
Speaker 2: on days where their journal says I was experiencing something

652
00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:49,196
Speaker 2: really stressful today, something that was really hard, they say,

653
00:35:49,556 --> 00:35:51,396
Speaker 2: but it's going to be all right, I'll deal with it.

654
00:35:51,876 --> 00:35:54,916
Speaker 2: They also show lower cortisol, which is a stress hormone,

655
00:35:54,916 --> 00:35:58,636
Speaker 2: throughout the semester. Right. So, just this reframing of how

656
00:35:58,636 --> 00:36:01,756
Speaker 2: we think about stress can affect whether or not a

657
00:36:01,756 --> 00:36:04,996
Speaker 2: truly objectively stressful situation right, like growing up as a

658
00:36:05,036 --> 00:36:07,796
Speaker 2: low income high school student and a tough neighborhood, whether

659
00:36:07,876 --> 00:36:09,756
Speaker 2: or not that's really kind of stress you out. And

660
00:36:09,796 --> 00:36:11,796
Speaker 2: so this was really powerful for me because it brought

661
00:36:11,836 --> 00:36:14,076
Speaker 2: up exactly the same thing that the ancients were kind

662
00:36:14,116 --> 00:36:16,876
Speaker 2: of thinking about that like, in some sense, thinking does

663
00:36:16,916 --> 00:36:18,636
Speaker 2: make it so.

664
00:36:17,956 --> 00:36:21,876
Speaker 3: So that brings us and I believe we are actually

665
00:36:21,916 --> 00:36:24,676
Speaker 3: going to make it through all five are okay, and

666
00:36:24,876 --> 00:36:27,556
Speaker 3: we are going to make it through all five because

667
00:36:27,956 --> 00:36:31,596
Speaker 3: I allowed myself to succumb to both the benefits on

668
00:36:31,676 --> 00:36:35,516
Speaker 3: the costs of the fourth of Lori's topics, which is

669
00:36:35,556 --> 00:36:36,516
Speaker 3: the topic.

670
00:36:36,396 --> 00:36:38,876
Speaker 4: Of being busy.

671
00:36:39,516 --> 00:36:43,956
Speaker 3: I'm putting too much into a limited period of time.

672
00:36:44,756 --> 00:36:46,316
Speaker 4: Laurie Santos take it away.

673
00:36:46,516 --> 00:36:51,316
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think we're all subject to being

674
00:36:51,356 --> 00:36:54,116
Speaker 2: a little bit busy these things, and I think busy

675
00:36:54,156 --> 00:36:56,676
Speaker 2: and especially the way that tamarg just said is being

676
00:36:57,076 --> 00:37:00,476
Speaker 2: which is putting too much into a limited period of time.

677
00:37:01,036 --> 00:37:04,356
Speaker 2: In the episode, I talk with the journalist Oliver Berkman,

678
00:37:04,516 --> 00:37:06,956
Speaker 2: who has a fantastic book which you haven't read it,

679
00:37:06,956 --> 00:37:09,396
Speaker 2: you should check it out. It's called four thousand Weeks

680
00:37:09,516 --> 00:37:12,036
Speaker 2: Time Management for Mortals, and.

681
00:37:11,876 --> 00:37:14,396
Speaker 1: His idea was that you know, when you really.

682
00:37:14,116 --> 00:37:16,556
Speaker 2: Come to terms with the fact that you are finite,

683
00:37:17,396 --> 00:37:20,276
Speaker 2: it really changes the amount of stuff that you feel

684
00:37:20,276 --> 00:37:23,836
Speaker 2: like you can reasonably put on your plate, right, Like,

685
00:37:23,996 --> 00:37:27,516
Speaker 2: really true time management is recognizing there's just never going

686
00:37:27,596 --> 00:37:30,076
Speaker 2: to be enough time for stuff. There's never going to

687
00:37:30,116 --> 00:37:32,716
Speaker 2: be enough time for stuff this summer. There's never going

688
00:37:32,756 --> 00:37:35,436
Speaker 2: to be enough time for stuff in this life, right,

689
00:37:35,516 --> 00:37:38,956
Speaker 2: which is scary. But the question is like, given that,

690
00:37:39,276 --> 00:37:41,716
Speaker 2: how do we decide what to put on our plate?

691
00:37:42,156 --> 00:37:44,596
Speaker 1: Right? How do we navigate like how to be the

692
00:37:44,596 --> 00:37:45,396
Speaker 1: most productive?

693
00:37:45,996 --> 00:37:48,556
Speaker 2: And this is another spot where the scholars haven't really

694
00:37:48,636 --> 00:37:52,876
Speaker 2: helped us out because there were historically not as far

695
00:37:52,956 --> 00:37:55,316
Speaker 2: back in history as Tomorrow was thinking about, but there

696
00:37:55,316 --> 00:37:58,956
Speaker 2: were historically like good ideas about what counted as productivity.

697
00:37:59,076 --> 00:38:01,876
Speaker 2: Right back in the day we had agriculture, we could

698
00:38:01,916 --> 00:38:04,276
Speaker 2: easily figure out how we should be spending our time, right,

699
00:38:04,316 --> 00:38:05,396
Speaker 2: how much should we plant?

700
00:38:05,676 --> 00:38:07,516
Speaker 1: How much should we work to deal with the crops?

701
00:38:07,596 --> 00:38:07,716
Speaker 4: Right?

702
00:38:08,116 --> 00:38:10,436
Speaker 1: You know you count bush corn that you get per

703
00:38:10,476 --> 00:38:10,916
Speaker 1: your time?

704
00:38:10,996 --> 00:38:11,196
Speaker 2: You know?

705
00:38:11,236 --> 00:38:13,356
Speaker 1: Okay, however I maximize that I'm doing good?

706
00:38:13,516 --> 00:38:15,956
Speaker 2: Or imagine you work on an assembly line, how many

707
00:38:16,036 --> 00:38:17,956
Speaker 2: like little widgets should you build? Well, it's like we

708
00:38:17,996 --> 00:38:20,036
Speaker 2: can figure out like the amount of work that goes

709
00:38:20,036 --> 00:38:22,476
Speaker 2: into making a maximum number of them. So many of

710
00:38:22,556 --> 00:38:25,396
Speaker 2: us these days don't work in agriculture. Many of us

711
00:38:25,436 --> 00:38:27,756
Speaker 2: don't work on an assembly line. Many of us do

712
00:38:27,836 --> 00:38:29,956
Speaker 2: the kind of thing that Tomorrow and I do, which

713
00:38:29,956 --> 00:38:33,676
Speaker 2: you might call knowledge work. I'm a podcaster, I'm a professor.

714
00:38:33,716 --> 00:38:36,356
Speaker 2: I come up with lectures. We're both academics. We come

715
00:38:36,436 --> 00:38:39,316
Speaker 2: up with ideas and books. But it's not like Tomorrow

716
00:38:39,316 --> 00:38:40,756
Speaker 2: and I at the end of our day have like

717
00:38:40,796 --> 00:38:43,636
Speaker 2: a big pile of widgets, like you know, academic paper

718
00:38:43,636 --> 00:38:44,756
Speaker 2: widgets that we produce.

719
00:38:45,116 --> 00:38:47,116
Speaker 1: Papers take different amounts of the time. You have to

720
00:38:47,116 --> 00:38:48,756
Speaker 1: think about the ideas you have to work on.

721
00:38:48,836 --> 00:38:50,316
Speaker 2: You have to noodle it, fill of bit. Sometimes we

722
00:38:50,356 --> 00:38:52,956
Speaker 2: get more intense periods and so on. And this is

723
00:38:52,996 --> 00:38:56,156
Speaker 2: an insight that one of my podcast guests, cal Newport

724
00:38:56,196 --> 00:38:58,076
Speaker 2: comes up with. He's like, the problem is that we

725
00:38:58,156 --> 00:39:01,756
Speaker 2: don't have great ideas of productivity right now. He thinks

726
00:39:01,756 --> 00:39:03,596
Speaker 2: that we came up with one though, because of course

727
00:39:03,596 --> 00:39:05,756
Speaker 2: we want a kind of assembly line model for everything

728
00:39:05,796 --> 00:39:08,116
Speaker 2: we do. And his argument is that we've come up

729
00:39:08,116 --> 00:39:12,276
Speaker 2: with what's known as soon productivity. Basically, instead of counting widgets,

730
00:39:12,716 --> 00:39:15,476
Speaker 2: we count the visible activity that it looks like we're

731
00:39:15,476 --> 00:39:18,996
Speaker 2: engaged in. So you answered that Slack message, you're applied

732
00:39:18,996 --> 00:39:21,516
Speaker 2: to that email, you're at work, you know, typing away.

733
00:39:22,036 --> 00:39:24,116
Speaker 2: And that's what we use because figuring out like what

734
00:39:24,236 --> 00:39:26,116
Speaker 2: means to be productive on the big stuff, like how

735
00:39:26,116 --> 00:39:28,956
Speaker 2: many good podcast episodes come out, or how many academic articles,

736
00:39:29,076 --> 00:39:31,236
Speaker 2: or the number of good ideas your doctors.

737
00:39:30,916 --> 00:39:32,076
Speaker 1: Come up with when he's trying to heal you.

738
00:39:32,116 --> 00:39:35,436
Speaker 2: Those are too hard, right, So we use visible productivity.

739
00:39:35,436 --> 00:39:38,836
Speaker 2: But then what happens Then you're trying to maximize that metric.

740
00:39:39,156 --> 00:39:41,476
Speaker 2: You're answering all these emails, you're being at all those

741
00:39:41,476 --> 00:39:44,156
Speaker 2: standing meetings, you're looking at those Slack messages. But what

742
00:39:44,196 --> 00:39:46,076
Speaker 2: does that do to the actual amount of time you

743
00:39:46,156 --> 00:39:48,276
Speaker 2: have free to work on the big projects?

744
00:39:48,956 --> 00:39:50,516
Speaker 1: It goes away Yanks.

745
00:39:50,516 --> 00:39:52,956
Speaker 2: She has this lovely phrase that he uses where he

746
00:39:52,996 --> 00:39:55,756
Speaker 2: says that those kind of little tasks become what he

747
00:39:55,836 --> 00:39:59,636
Speaker 2: calls productivity termites that eat away at your schedule. You know,

748
00:39:59,716 --> 00:40:01,516
Speaker 2: So you look at your calendar and it's just like

749
00:40:01,556 --> 00:40:03,996
Speaker 2: this crumbling building of this schedule because you don't have

750
00:40:04,036 --> 00:40:05,956
Speaker 2: time to do any of the big stuff. And so

751
00:40:06,036 --> 00:40:09,356
Speaker 2: the podcast is in an attempt to say, Okay, how

752
00:40:09,396 --> 00:40:11,996
Speaker 2: do we do this, how do we kind of answer

753
00:40:11,996 --> 00:40:14,156
Speaker 2: to the fact that we have the wrong metric when

754
00:40:14,156 --> 00:40:15,836
Speaker 2: it comes to what it means to be productive.

755
00:40:16,276 --> 00:40:20,036
Speaker 3: And what's fascinating is that when Laurie and I were

756
00:40:20,356 --> 00:40:24,596
Speaker 3: talking about this, I realized that in many ways this

757
00:40:24,756 --> 00:40:32,316
Speaker 3: touches on the most fundamental philosophical distinction that Plato makes,

758
00:40:32,876 --> 00:40:38,276
Speaker 3: which is the distinction between what is and what seems

759
00:40:38,356 --> 00:40:43,396
Speaker 3: to be, what is actual and what we use as

760
00:40:43,676 --> 00:40:50,316
Speaker 3: its surrogate representation, what is most fundamental and deep and

761
00:40:50,356 --> 00:40:55,956
Speaker 3: what is on the surface. And the entire warning of

762
00:40:56,076 --> 00:41:01,396
Speaker 3: Plato's philosophical work is an attempt to warn us against

763
00:41:01,516 --> 00:41:05,516
Speaker 3: taking seriously what Plato calls the shadows in the cave,

764
00:41:06,516 --> 00:41:08,636
Speaker 3: rather than what it is.

765
00:41:08,516 --> 00:41:10,716
Speaker 4: That the shadow in the cave are reflections of.

766
00:41:11,276 --> 00:41:16,516
Speaker 3: That is, Plato's warning is a warning against falling for

767
00:41:16,876 --> 00:41:22,716
Speaker 3: surface rather than deep features, for the smoke, which is

768
00:41:22,756 --> 00:41:27,316
Speaker 3: a typical indicator of the fire, rather than the fire itself.

769
00:41:28,196 --> 00:41:32,796
Speaker 3: And in a lot of ways we are subject to

770
00:41:32,956 --> 00:41:36,916
Speaker 3: teaching to the test for ourselves, right we get this measure?

771
00:41:37,356 --> 00:41:40,956
Speaker 3: The measure is how many things did I get taken

772
00:41:40,996 --> 00:41:45,756
Speaker 3: off my checklist today, and we use that surface feature,

773
00:41:46,116 --> 00:41:51,476
Speaker 3: the platonic shadow, rather than focusing on the fundamental object,

774
00:41:51,916 --> 00:41:56,516
Speaker 3: which is how deeply did I come to understand something

775
00:41:56,516 --> 00:42:00,876
Speaker 3: about the world. Notice that, as in Plato's Republic, what's

776
00:42:01,036 --> 00:42:04,356
Speaker 3: true of the individual is true of the society, and

777
00:42:04,436 --> 00:42:09,596
Speaker 3: vice versa. There are so many structures in sociat society.

778
00:42:10,036 --> 00:42:13,596
Speaker 3: Teaching to the test is a literal example of it,

779
00:42:13,916 --> 00:42:17,596
Speaker 3: whereby we have something we care about, we have a

780
00:42:17,836 --> 00:42:22,756
Speaker 3: mechanism by which we measure it, and then we devote

781
00:42:22,836 --> 00:42:28,196
Speaker 3: our attention and effort to the mechanism rather than to

782
00:42:28,356 --> 00:42:31,996
Speaker 3: that which the mechanism is meant to be an indicator of.

783
00:42:32,396 --> 00:42:32,996
Speaker 4: I want to.

784
00:42:32,996 --> 00:42:39,596
Speaker 3: Point out that that general structure is the fundamental philosophical

785
00:42:39,996 --> 00:42:44,676
Speaker 3: distinction between being that is, the way things really are,

786
00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:52,556
Speaker 3: and seeming that is the perfectly reasonable, superficial features that

787
00:42:52,596 --> 00:42:56,236
Speaker 3: you make use of most of the time to make

788
00:42:56,316 --> 00:42:58,556
Speaker 3: sense of the world. And when you are in a

789
00:42:58,596 --> 00:43:03,916
Speaker 3: situation where you can trust the world, seeming and being coincide.

790
00:43:03,916 --> 00:43:07,596
Speaker 3: You're in your own house, and if the serial box

791
00:43:07,956 --> 00:43:12,196
Speaker 3: says cheerios, unless you're someone who moves around your cereal,

792
00:43:12,316 --> 00:43:16,156
Speaker 3: you can assume that inside that box is a set

793
00:43:16,196 --> 00:43:20,436
Speaker 3: of cheerios. Right, you set up your world in such

794
00:43:20,476 --> 00:43:25,556
Speaker 3: a way that the surface features indicate the deep features

795
00:43:25,716 --> 00:43:31,476
Speaker 3: that you care about mistrust where you can't count on

796
00:43:31,716 --> 00:43:36,276
Speaker 3: surface and deep features aligning. It's actually one of the

797
00:43:36,276 --> 00:43:40,516
Speaker 3: most disruptive experiences.

798
00:43:39,676 --> 00:43:40,516
Speaker 4: That we can have.

799
00:43:41,436 --> 00:43:44,916
Speaker 3: And what this work on busyness shows is that we've

800
00:43:44,956 --> 00:43:47,556
Speaker 3: been put into a situation where we have to be

801
00:43:47,756 --> 00:43:52,436
Speaker 3: distrustful of our own sites of accomplishment. Because even though

802
00:43:52,436 --> 00:43:56,356
Speaker 3: it says cheerios on the outside, right, it says accomplishments

803
00:43:56,716 --> 00:43:59,796
Speaker 3: when you open it up inside it's just full of

804
00:43:59,956 --> 00:44:03,956
Speaker 3: all of these tiny bits that are eating up our time.

805
00:44:04,356 --> 00:44:07,436
Speaker 3: And so I was really struck when Laurie and I

806
00:44:07,556 --> 00:44:12,956
Speaker 3: were talking about these data that have been observed by

807
00:44:12,996 --> 00:44:17,236
Speaker 3: this empirical scientist at how deep a question they are

808
00:44:17,276 --> 00:44:20,796
Speaker 3: getting at. But in many ways, there's no deeper question

809
00:44:20,956 --> 00:44:25,316
Speaker 3: than the question we have come to twice already, one

810
00:44:25,396 --> 00:44:30,516
Speaker 3: when Laurie pointed out that thinking about herself thirty years

811
00:44:30,676 --> 00:44:34,476
Speaker 3: later altered the relation between her present and future self,

812
00:44:35,276 --> 00:44:38,116
Speaker 3: and the second when she pointed out that the subtitle

813
00:44:38,156 --> 00:44:43,276
Speaker 3: of the book four thousand Weeks Thriving for Mortals, so Lauren,

814
00:44:43,356 --> 00:44:45,836
Speaker 3: let's talk about mortality.

815
00:44:46,076 --> 00:44:47,956
Speaker 1: I'm really spooked by death. I don't like it. I

816
00:44:47,996 --> 00:44:49,236
Speaker 1: don't like when anything ends.

817
00:44:49,276 --> 00:44:51,796
Speaker 2: I don't like when a nice meal ends or a

818
00:44:51,876 --> 00:44:54,356
Speaker 2: vacation ends. When I was a little kid, this is

819
00:44:54,396 --> 00:44:56,596
Speaker 2: a very famous video of me when I'm three years

820
00:44:56,596 --> 00:44:59,636
Speaker 2: old and my family is watching a really nice fireworks display.

821
00:44:59,636 --> 00:45:01,716
Speaker 2: And I used to get really upset when fireworks end,

822
00:45:01,756 --> 00:45:04,236
Speaker 2: especially because you only see them on July fourth, and

823
00:45:04,276 --> 00:45:06,836
Speaker 2: it's a nice fireworks display and it ends. You see

824
00:45:06,876 --> 00:45:08,876
Speaker 2: my dad really trying to distract me, like, oh, look

825
00:45:08,916 --> 00:45:13,596
Speaker 2: at look at this, guys, and here's little Laurie.

826
00:45:13,676 --> 00:45:16,756
Speaker 1: Voice goes, Daddy, are the fireworks all done? How the

827
00:45:16,796 --> 00:45:17,676
Speaker 1: fireworks are done?

828
00:45:17,716 --> 00:45:22,236
Speaker 2: And then eventually he admits screaming, Dad, scream is the

829
00:45:22,276 --> 00:45:24,836
Speaker 2: scream I want to give every time I think that,

830
00:45:25,156 --> 00:45:28,116
Speaker 2: you know, eighty ninety years from now, I won't be here, right,

831
00:45:28,116 --> 00:45:30,996
Speaker 2: I won't be here in the year twenty one hundred, right,

832
00:45:31,076 --> 00:45:34,156
Speaker 2: probably maybe medical technology being what it is, we'll see.

833
00:45:34,556 --> 00:45:36,076
Speaker 1: But that really spooks me.

834
00:45:36,436 --> 00:45:38,716
Speaker 2: And that means that I kind of ignore the fact

835
00:45:38,716 --> 00:45:40,956
Speaker 2: that I'm finite. But what the research shows is that

836
00:45:41,196 --> 00:45:44,516
Speaker 2: might not be such a hot thing because recognizing that

837
00:45:44,556 --> 00:45:47,916
Speaker 2: things are final make you appreciate them more. One of

838
00:45:47,916 --> 00:45:50,276
Speaker 2: my favorite studies on this worked with college students that

839
00:45:50,316 --> 00:45:52,236
Speaker 2: got to college students not to think about their own death,

840
00:45:52,236 --> 00:45:54,556
Speaker 2: which is really far away, but the fact that college

841
00:45:54,596 --> 00:45:57,836
Speaker 2: was going to end. They brought seniors in and reminded them, oh, hey,

842
00:45:57,876 --> 00:46:00,516
Speaker 2: you only have this many weeks left, versus another condition

843
00:46:00,516 --> 00:46:01,836
Speaker 2: where they kind of made it seem like, oh, it's

844
00:46:01,836 --> 00:46:04,236
Speaker 2: a really long stretch of time. And what they found

845
00:46:04,276 --> 00:46:06,836
Speaker 2: is that by the end of this semester, those seniors

846
00:46:06,796 --> 00:46:08,876
Speaker 2: who've been reminded of how short the time they had

847
00:46:09,036 --> 00:46:11,236
Speaker 2: was the sort of temporal scarcity is the word they

848
00:46:11,356 --> 00:46:13,436
Speaker 2: use for it, they wound up happier at the end

849
00:46:13,476 --> 00:46:15,476
Speaker 2: of the year. But that was in part because if

850
00:46:15,516 --> 00:46:18,036
Speaker 2: you measured the number of kind of cool activities they did,

851
00:46:18,276 --> 00:46:20,476
Speaker 2: they wound up doing more because they felt like, it's

852
00:46:20,516 --> 00:46:21,396
Speaker 2: so sure, I got.

853
00:46:21,156 --> 00:46:22,036
Speaker 1: To get them in right.

854
00:46:22,476 --> 00:46:24,716
Speaker 2: And so temporal scarcity, when we think about our own

855
00:46:24,756 --> 00:46:27,436
Speaker 2: lives seems to do the same thing. We wind up

856
00:46:28,076 --> 00:46:31,076
Speaker 2: making time for the things that really matter, the people

857
00:46:31,116 --> 00:46:33,556
Speaker 2: that really matter, the stuff we really want to get to.

858
00:46:33,596 --> 00:46:35,676
Speaker 2: If we think the time horizons too long, we just

859
00:46:35,756 --> 00:46:37,516
Speaker 2: kind of put it off right. We talked about these

860
00:46:37,516 --> 00:46:42,036
Speaker 2: temporal biases before, but recognizing that things are scarce, as

861
00:46:42,116 --> 00:46:45,156
Speaker 2: existentially scary as it might be, kind of makes us

862
00:46:45,196 --> 00:46:46,076
Speaker 2: do a little bit better.

863
00:46:46,556 --> 00:46:50,956
Speaker 3: And speaking of temporal scarcity, we have fifty three two

864
00:46:51,436 --> 00:46:56,236
Speaker 3: one seconds left. The philosopher Don Stewart Male developed a

865
00:46:56,396 --> 00:47:03,316
Speaker 3: moral theory that basically said, the most important feature of

866
00:47:03,916 --> 00:47:09,396
Speaker 3: happiness is that the joy of others brings joy to you,

867
00:47:10,076 --> 00:47:17,636
Speaker 3: and thereby the conflict between individual happiness and communal happiness collapses,

868
00:47:18,236 --> 00:47:22,916
Speaker 3: because what brings individual happiness is the capacity to take

869
00:47:22,996 --> 00:47:27,036
Speaker 3: joy in the experience of others. And I will say

870
00:47:27,076 --> 00:47:31,596
Speaker 3: this hour has been an opportunity for me, and I

871
00:47:31,716 --> 00:47:37,196
Speaker 3: believe for my second self, Laurie, to feel exactly that.

872
00:47:37,436 --> 00:47:42,196
Speaker 3: Thank you for being present with us as we thought

873
00:47:42,396 --> 00:47:45,476
Speaker 3: and talked together. Thank you for being a group of

874
00:47:45,516 --> 00:47:50,316
Speaker 3: people to whom we felt connected and ready to feel

875
00:47:50,436 --> 00:47:51,636
Speaker 3: vulnerable in.

876
00:47:51,556 --> 00:47:51,956
Speaker 4: Front of.

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00:47:55,436 --> 00:47:57,876
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to my friend Tamar Ginler and the amazing

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00:47:57,876 --> 00:48:00,356
Speaker 2: staff and sponsors of the International Festival of.

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00:48:00,436 --> 00:48:01,236
Speaker 1: Arts and Ideas.

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00:48:01,556 --> 00:48:03,756
Speaker 2: If you're in New Haven, Connecticut next summer, you should

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00:48:03,796 --> 00:48:07,236
Speaker 2: definitely check out the festival. I know I'm not the

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00:48:07,276 --> 00:48:10,476
Speaker 2: sportiest of podcast hosts. Next week, I'll be bringing out

883
00:48:10,516 --> 00:48:13,676
Speaker 2: my inner athlete because the Happiness Lab and other Pushkins

884
00:48:13,716 --> 00:48:16,196
Speaker 2: shows will be going to the Olympics. We'll meet a

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00:48:16,236 --> 00:48:18,676
Speaker 2: track and field athlete who fell out of love with running.

886
00:48:18,916 --> 00:48:21,156
Speaker 2: We'll learn how she hung up her shoes, only to

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00:48:21,236 --> 00:48:23,836
Speaker 2: explode back into the sport years later as one of

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00:48:23,836 --> 00:48:25,436
Speaker 2: the fastest women in the world.

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00:48:25,636 --> 00:48:28,876
Speaker 1: I just genuinely go into races so excited.

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00:48:29,316 --> 00:48:31,236
Speaker 2: You know, I could be in office right now, but

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00:48:31,396 --> 00:48:35,156
Speaker 2: I'm said, I'm going into this massive race with huge athletes, Like, how.

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00:48:35,036 --> 00:48:36,236
Speaker 1: Cool is that.

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00:48:36,236 --> 00:48:38,716
Speaker 2: That's all next time on the Happiness Lab with me

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00:48:38,916 --> 00:48:43,116
Speaker 2: Doctor Laurie Santos