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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Joe McCormick. Today, Rob and I are out,

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Speaker 1: so we are bringing you the third and final part

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Speaker 1: in our Vault series on the illusion of control. This

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Speaker 1: episode originally aired on February thirteenth, twenty twenty four. Let's

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Speaker 1: dive right in.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 3: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 1: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 1: three in our series on the psychology concept known as

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Speaker 1: the illusion of control. This is a cognitive illusion, meaning

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Speaker 1: a common type of error in thinking and judgment that

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Speaker 1: has been studied fairly intend going back to about the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. So, according to most of the illusion of

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Speaker 1: control literature, humans on average have a tendency too believe

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Speaker 1: we have some level of control over outcomes that are

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Speaker 1: completely outside of our influence, such as the outcome of

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Speaker 1: a lottery and other games of chance. And in situations

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Speaker 1: where we do have some control but not total control,

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Speaker 1: we on average believe that we have more control than

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Speaker 1: we do, according to illusion of control theory. Now, if

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Speaker 1: you haven't heard the other two episodes already. You should

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Speaker 1: probably go back and listen to them first. They'll help

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Speaker 1: bring you up to speed for today. But we'll do

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Speaker 1: a brief recap on what we talked about the last

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Speaker 1: couple of times. First of all, just to illustrate the

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Speaker 1: idea of illusion of control, we talked about ways that

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Speaker 1: you might see people expressing or illustrating their illusions of

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Speaker 1: control in everyday life, such as the way we concentrate

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Speaker 1: on a dice throw as if they will this like

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Speaker 1: increase our chances of hitting the number we want, or

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Speaker 1: maybe pressing the door close button on an elevator after

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Speaker 1: somebody else has already pushed it. Questionable whether the first

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Speaker 1: press actually does anything. The second one's just ridiculous, you know,

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Speaker 1: But sometimes we just feel that way. We're in a hurry,

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Speaker 1: and we feel like this other guy he couldn't make

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Speaker 1: it happen, couldn't close the doors, but I can.

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Speaker 3: That's right. I mean these two examples alone, along with

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Speaker 3: the walk button at crosswalks, I think we can all

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Speaker 3: relate to these on one level or another.

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Speaker 1: But another one that's been observed in research is when

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Speaker 1: driving a car, thinking that you will somehow be able

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Speaker 1: to avoid an auto collision by exerting some vague type

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Speaker 1: of control that other drivers are not capable of.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I often think that other drivers are incapable

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Speaker 3: of a lot when I'm observing their driving. But were

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Speaker 3: talking about very specific things here, or we're getting into

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Speaker 3: that that realm of control that goes above and beyond

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Speaker 3: just being able to drive your car safely and correctly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's true I feel the same way

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Speaker 1: when driving, and yet at the same time, for everybody

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Speaker 1: else in the world, I am one of the other drivers.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. I see a lot of

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Speaker 3: not using turn signals, et cetera out there. Some people

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Speaker 3: seem in capable of that. But this need not be

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Speaker 3: a tie rate about other people's driving.

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Speaker 1: Now, in part two of the series, we talked about

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Speaker 1: a bunch of different types of experiments that have found

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Speaker 1: various sorts of evidence for the illusion of control, and

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Speaker 1: we also talked about factors that tend to influence how

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Speaker 1: much illusory control we experience. Just a few examples that

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Speaker 1: came up last time. One is mood. We apparently experience

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Speaker 1: more illusory control on average when we're in a positive mood.

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Speaker 1: The salience of success, or what's called success emphasis. So

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Speaker 1: we tend to experience more illusory control when we have

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Speaker 1: a string of early successful outcomes getting what we want.

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Speaker 1: So maybe if you're doing a coin flip a bunch

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Speaker 1: of times and the coin flip comes up your way

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Speaker 1: several times in a row, might start to make you

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Speaker 1: feel like somehow you're making that happen. Another factor was

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Speaker 1: the need or desire for the outcome, So the more

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Speaker 1: you want an outcome, the more likely you are to

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Speaker 1: overestimate your control over it happening. One example of experiments

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Speaker 1: that showed this was like if the prize of a

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Speaker 1: lottery is a sandwich, On average, hungry people are more

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Speaker 1: likely to show illusions of control over the lottery than

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Speaker 1: people who just stayed, who might have a more realistic

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Speaker 1: idea of their chances. Another interesting one was power. Positions

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Speaker 1: of power or feelings of power are somewhat correlated with

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Speaker 1: illusory control, so maybe having more actual control over real

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Speaker 1: things could also bring about more illusions that you can

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Speaker 1: control things you can't. And another interesting factor was the

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Speaker 1: intrusion of reality. So the illusion of control is fortunately

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Speaker 1: one of the illusions that has been found to be

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Speaker 1: fairly well neutralized or mitigated by giving somebody a reality check,

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Speaker 1: you like, remind them in the moment what the odds

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Speaker 1: on the slot machine actually are, and that seems to

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Speaker 1: somewhat reduce a person's belief that they can somehow get

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Speaker 1: better odds through their behavior. Now, also in the previous episode,

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Speaker 1: we talked about in interesting paper I found by Geno

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Speaker 1: at All from twenty eleven somewhat challenging the illusion of

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Speaker 1: control framework by doing experiments showing that illusions of control

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Speaker 1: can go in both directions. So, for example, there's a

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Speaker 1: task where you're trying to solve puzzles on a computer screen,

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Speaker 1: and there's a button you can press that will sometimes

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Speaker 1: work to make the screen easier to read. And maybe

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Speaker 1: the button works fifteen percent of the time you press it,

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Speaker 1: or maybe it works eighty five percent of the time

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Speaker 1: you press it. In this type of experiment, Gino at

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Speaker 1: All found that people with little control thought they had

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Speaker 1: more control than they did, but people with a lot

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Speaker 1: of control thought they had less control than they actually did.

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Speaker 1: And so the authors of this paper argued that maybe

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Speaker 1: this type of finding should cause us to reevaluate the

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Speaker 1: findings of the illusion of control experiments, so that we

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Speaker 1: think of them not as evidence of a systematic human

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Speaker 1: tendency to overestimate our level of control, but that that

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Speaker 1: is just one half of a more general tendency to

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Speaker 1: misjudge our level of control in both directions, So overestimating

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Speaker 1: your control happens more often for outcomes that we, to

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Speaker 1: begin with have very little or no control over.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how well the Geno at All study

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Speaker 1: here challenging the illusion of control framework is held up,

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Speaker 1: but there, from what I can tell, still seems to

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Speaker 1: be a pretty robust research consensus about the illusion of

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Speaker 1: control being basically real, And I guess we should just

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Speaker 1: keep in mind that it does seem to probably be real,

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Speaker 1: but maybe it's only the picture.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that comes up in this twenty eleven paper

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Speaker 1: by Geno at All is something we haven't really focused

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Speaker 1: on all that much yet. I guess we've generally acknowledged it.

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Speaker 1: But the idea of noting with specifics the ways that

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Speaker 1: false beliefs generated by illusions of control can have real

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Speaker 1: negative consequences, like on our lives and on the world,

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Speaker 1: and the authors here site studies making these connections. So

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Speaker 1: illusions of control when you think about it, could make

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Speaker 1: you incorrectly imagine that you are influencing other people's behavior.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think we can all remember plenty of

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Speaker 1: scenarios when we got up in our heads imagining that

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Speaker 1: somebody else was doing something or acting in a certain

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Speaker 1: way because of us or in reaction to something we did.

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Speaker 1: But then later you realize like, oh, actually they were

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Speaker 1: acting that, you know, you find you get more information,

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Speaker 1: you find, oh, they were acting that way because of

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Speaker 1: something else going on in their lives. You know, other

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Speaker 1: people are living whole lives of their own, and we

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Speaker 1: often don't know what's happening in their heads and in

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Speaker 1: their lives, and so we can have a kind of

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Speaker 1: very self oriented interpretation of other people's behavior. And one

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Speaker 1: form that might take would be or one reason that

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Speaker 1: might arise is an illusion of control.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's often this self centered nature of modeling out

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Speaker 3: other people's intents and mental states.

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Speaker 1: The authors here also note that people who overestimate their

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Speaker 1: level of control over outcomes might quote make bad decisions

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Speaker 1: about where to direct their efforts. And that totally makes sense, right.

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Speaker 1: You know, imagine you're trying to get something that you want,

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Speaker 1: and whether you get that outcome is influenced by multiple factors.

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Speaker 1: Maybe one factor is something that's amenable to practice and skill,

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Speaker 1: and the other factor is purely luck. If you think

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Speaker 1: that the luck based factor is within your control, you

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Speaker 1: could waste time focused on trying to manipulate that when

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Speaker 1: you should have been focused on, you know, practicing the

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Speaker 1: skill based factor influencing what you can instead of wasting

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Speaker 1: your efforts trying to influence what you can't. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: also note research pointing out that illusions of control could

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Speaker 1: cause you to make bad judgments about whether or not

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Speaker 1: to listen to the opinions and input of others. And

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Speaker 1: this just that totally seems true, But it also makes

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Speaker 1: me think about how if you generalize illusions of control

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Speaker 1: beyond the self. It seems to me that illusions of

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Speaker 1: control could potentially overlap with the just world illusion, you know,

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Speaker 1: the belief that people get what they deserve. And I'm

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Speaker 1: sure we can all think of cases where we've, you know,

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Speaker 1: encountered somebody who is inclined to blame other people who

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Speaker 1: are suffering misfortune for their predicament, even if it's clearly

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Speaker 1: due to factors outside of their control. Just the mentality

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Speaker 1: that you must have done something to deserve this. You know,

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Speaker 1: maybe if you had a positive attitude, this wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: happened to you, and so forth. I mean, you can

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Speaker 1: see that even in scenarios where it's logically absurd, there's

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Speaker 1: no reason to think that there would be real causal

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Speaker 1: factors of that sort, and so applying that to other

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Speaker 1: people would almost seem like a sort of universalizing or

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Speaker 1: generalizing of the principle of illusions of control.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you can imagine in these scenarios where I mean,

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Speaker 3: there is kind of a self protective rationale in some

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Speaker 3: of these judgments. So something that is, you know, that

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Speaker 3: random outside of someone's control happens, something negative happens to

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Speaker 3: someone you know or someone like You're just aware of

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Speaker 3: the obvious ramification of that is that something out of

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Speaker 3: my control could happen to me, something just like this

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Speaker 3: or similar, and that puts you in that place of

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Speaker 3: not having control over your events. But if there's a

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Speaker 3: reason for it happening to this other person, then perhaps

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Speaker 3: there is a reason for it to not happen to you,

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Speaker 3: or you know, it puts something conceivably within the realm

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Speaker 3: of your control. If there is this causation you can

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Speaker 3: focus on with this other individual situation.

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Speaker 1: That's a version of the thing we're talking about with

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Speaker 1: like driving that you know, we believe auto collisions that

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Speaker 1: you somehow would be able to avoid, collisions that other

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Speaker 1: people would be less able to avoid because somehow you

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Speaker 1: can exert a type of control over driving outcomes that

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Speaker 1: other people can't.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, go to be clear, everyone can use turn signals.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying, consider turn signals. If you haven't used

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Speaker 3: to turn signal today, treat yourself.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's pretty clear that having the false

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Speaker 1: belief that you can control outcomes that you actually can't

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Speaker 1: will have negative impacts on your life and on the

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Speaker 1: lives of others. There are like an infinite number of

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Speaker 1: imaginable scenarios where this type of illusion would be harmful,

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Speaker 1: which raises the question, then why do we still experience it?

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Speaker 1: Like I haven't we as creatures gotten a lot better

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Speaker 1: at seeing the difference between things we can influence and

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Speaker 1: things we can't. So to examine this question, I want

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Speaker 1: to come back to a chapter in an academic psychology

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Speaker 1: book that I brought up in the last episode. This

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Speaker 1: is a chapter called Illusions of control written by a

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Speaker 1: psychologist named Suzanne C. Thompson. This is from a book

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Speaker 1: called Cognitive Illusions from Psychology Press twenty sixteen, edited by

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Speaker 1: Rudiger F. Pohl. So this book chapter does an overview

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Speaker 1: of illusion of control research, the research that has taken

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Speaker 1: place since the nineteen seventies, comparing different methods of studying

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Speaker 1: the phenomenon and synthesizing the major findings of this subfield.

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Speaker 1: Now Later in this chapter, Thompson does cover some of

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Speaker 1: the main explanations that have been offered in the scientific

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Speaker 1: literature for why illusions of control occur. One explanation she

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Speaker 1: brings up that she ends up not agreeing with is

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Speaker 1: the explanation given in the original paper by Ellen J.

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Speaker 1: Langer from nineteen seventy five. This was the one about

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Speaker 1: where Langer essentially said that illusions of control happen because

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Speaker 1: people literally confuse chance determined outcomes with skill determined outcomes.

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Speaker 1: So we actually mistakenly believe the slot machine is to

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Speaker 1: some extent a game of skill, and like elements of

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Speaker 1: the skill game cause us to really think that this

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Speaker 1: connects to the finding that skill based elements like familiarity, involvement,

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Speaker 1: and competition, which we talked about in the other episodes,

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Speaker 1: could actually cause people to have more illusions of control,

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Speaker 1: and Thompson brings up some reasons to doubt that Langer's

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Speaker 1: skill chance confusion explanation is the right one. The main

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Speaker 1: thing she brings up about this theory that resonates with

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Speaker 1: me is she says, you know, this theory doesn't explain

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Speaker 1: some of the secondary factors that change how much illusory

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Speaker 1: control we experience, for example, success emphasis, or the level

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Speaker 1: of need or desire for an outcome, et cetera. That

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Speaker 1: just doesn't really make sense if this is the reason

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Speaker 1: we have illusions of control. So instead, Thompson and her

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Speaker 1: co authors in previous research have offered an explanation for

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Speaker 1: illusions of control based on what they call a control heuristic.

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Speaker 1: And so a heuristic just generally means a process that

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Speaker 1: people use to try to quickly solve a problem or

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Speaker 1: make a determination, not perfectly, but efficiently. So instead of

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Speaker 1: like doing a full analysis of a situation where you

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Speaker 1: really deliberately think everything out, you can mentally use a

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Speaker 1: heuristic to come to a solution or make a determination

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Speaker 1: that is fast and good enough. So another way to

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Speaker 1: think about a heuristic is a mental shortcut. We use

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Speaker 1: heuristic reasoning all the time. Basically, anytime we're not slowing

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Speaker 1: down to do deliberate analytical thinking, we're probably using various

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Speaker 1: kinds of hereistics.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, this has come up on the show a

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Speaker 3: lot because it really is quite revealing about like what

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Speaker 3: we are and how we interact with into what degree

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Speaker 3: we're aware of our world. You know, like there's just

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Speaker 3: not enough like mental capacity and or energy to do

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Speaker 3: a deep analysis all the time. It's also not helpful.

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Speaker 3: You've got to move through the world. You have objectives

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Speaker 3: to get to, and the brain is helping you get

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Speaker 3: there without folks getting lost in all the details.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So Yeah, you might think, well, wouldn't it

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Speaker 1: be better if we tried to like do a really

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Speaker 1: deep analysis on everything, But no, it would not. You

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Speaker 1: don't have time to do that. Like that's that's not

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Speaker 1: a way that you could live a life. You have

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Speaker 1: to do most mental determination fast and cheap. So in

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Speaker 1: Judgments of control, Thompson says a control heuristic is quote

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Speaker 1: a shortcut that people use to judge the extent of

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Speaker 1: their personal influence, and Thompson and co authors came up

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Speaker 1: with a model of how this informal heuristic works, and

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Speaker 1: they say, as two factors, there are two things that

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Speaker 1: we in theory look at to make this calculation fast

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Speaker 1: and dirty calculation about whether we are influencing outcomes or not.

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Speaker 1: And those two ingredients are number one, your intention to

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Speaker 1: achieve an outcome and number two, a perceived connection in

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Speaker 1: the world between your actions and the desired outcome. And so,

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Speaker 1: in Thompson's own words quote, when one acts with the

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Speaker 1: intention of obtaining a particular outcome and there is a

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Speaker 1: relationship temporal, common meaning, or predictive between one's action and

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Speaker 1: the outcome, people judged that they had control over the outcome.

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Speaker 1: So to connect this to a real world example, you know,

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Speaker 1: imagine you are playing a slot machine. You have the

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Speaker 1: intention of winning a bunch of money, and you play

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Speaker 1: it a bunch and you do have a pretty big win.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's on the day when you are wearing your

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Speaker 1: lucky underwear. So according to the control hereistic model of

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Speaker 1: Thompson and co authors here, this would be a situation

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Speaker 1: likely to give rise to illusions of control because both

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Speaker 1: conditions here are met. The intention you did intend to

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Speaker 1: win the money and then the connection you did take

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Speaker 1: some action that was connected to you getting the money.

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Speaker 1: So it was in this case you could say wearing

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Speaker 1: the lucky clothing, but in fact you don't even really

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Speaker 1: need the lucky charm to establish this relationship. You could

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Speaker 1: have an illusion of control simply for playing the machine

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Speaker 1: because in regular play like you have the intention to win,

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Speaker 1: and then some intermittent winnings occur, and simply the action

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Speaker 1: of playing the machine could also cause illusions that the

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Speaker 1: gambler has some control over getting that outcome of the

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Speaker 1: intermittent winnings, so they believe they have some way to

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Speaker 1: beat the system and win big. So I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about even though this particular connection would be an illusion

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Speaker 1: when it comes to like the slot machine, you don't

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Speaker 1: really control the outcomes, the control heuristic, like many heuristics,

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Speaker 1: would still be very useful because it is good enough

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Speaker 1: most of the time. Most of the time, it does

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Speaker 1: help you accurately determine your influence over all kinds of

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Speaker 1: processes every day. So I was just thinking about cooking.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're cooking in the kitchen. Maybe you're making

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Speaker 1: the tomato basil sauce that you've cooked a bunch of

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Speaker 1: times before, and this time it came out tasting better

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Speaker 1: than it usually does. And then you connect that temporally

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Speaker 1: to an action that you took, like I added more

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Speaker 1: garlic than I usually do, and then you use that

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Speaker 1: to correctly determine that your actions adding the extra garlic

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Speaker 1: influence the desirable outcome of the food tasting good. So

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Speaker 1: you know, for situations like that, this kind of heuristic

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Speaker 1: would work just fine. It's not that the heuristic is bad.

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Speaker 1: We use it all the time, and most of the

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Speaker 1: time it's good enough. You can imagine the alternative of

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Speaker 1: like being frozen in place trying to consider, like what

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Speaker 1: role chance factors outside of your control may also have

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Speaker 1: influenced how much you liked your tomato basil sauce. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is just like not a useful scenario to be in.

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Speaker 3: And of course the thing about tomato basil sauce is

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Speaker 3: you will, in theory make it again, so this process

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Speaker 3: of testing and learning and making these judgment calls will continue.

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Speaker 1: That's right, So you could refine your understanding in the future.

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Speaker 1: I mean, maybe if you make it with more garlic

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Speaker 1: again and you don't like it, you could you can

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Speaker 1: update your beliefs. But in this situation, a heuristic that says, okay,

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Speaker 1: I combine, I intended for an outcome, I took an

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Speaker 1: action and that outcome occurred. That's good enough. I can say, then, okay,

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Speaker 1: I did have control. My action was what determined the outcome.

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Speaker 1: But of course there are situations in the world that

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Speaker 1: can turn this normally very well functioning heuristic against you.

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Speaker 1: Games of chance are one of them. Remember you know,

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Speaker 1: so you think like I have the intention of winning

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Speaker 1: the slot machine. I take the act of placing the

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Speaker 1: bets and pulling the lever. Sometimes I do get small,

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Speaker 1: intermittent payouts. Therefore I am at least partially in control.

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Speaker 1: I can beat the odds. But it's not just games

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Speaker 1: of chance. It's also everyday scenarios where the amount of

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Speaker 1: control you have over an outcome that you care about

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Speaker 1: is ambiguous. So I was trying to think of some

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Speaker 1: scenarios like this. Here's a very common one. Trying to

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Speaker 1: persuade people to agree with you about something a very

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Speaker 1: very common human activity. It occurs in workplaces and friendships

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Speaker 1: and families and sales. At every level of human life.

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Speaker 1: There's persuasion, and so it's happening all the time, and

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Speaker 1: whether you succeed or fail at this task, you never

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Speaker 1: know exactly how much of the outcome was due to

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Speaker 1: factors within your control, like the kind of persuasive case

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Speaker 1: you made, or to other factors outside of your control,

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Speaker 1: like everything else going on in this other person's life

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Speaker 1: and mind. So the level of control that you have

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Speaker 1: is always kind of ambiguous. You will have intermittent successes

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Speaker 1: and failures at persuading people of things, but it's easy

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Speaker 1: to see how illusions of control can arise here, and

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Speaker 1: maybe you can start thinking that you have more influence

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Speaker 1: over people than you actually do, because like, sometimes you're

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Speaker 1: going to win at this game, and you can never

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Speaker 1: really know for sure why you won, if it was

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Speaker 1: because of something you did or because of something else.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean the reverse is true as well.

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Speaker 3: Like you often hear, it's kind of like the you know,

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Speaker 3: the old thing, Little pictures have big ears, right. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you might not think you're having an influence on someone

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Speaker 3: that someone's looking up to you or looking to you

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Speaker 3: or noticing how you're responding to something, but that influence

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Speaker 3: may be in place. So it kind of goes both.

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Speaker 1: Ways, totally yeah. I mean, in fact, that could be

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Speaker 1: the other side of that geno at all study, right that,

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Speaker 1: And sometimes we have a lot of influence and we

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Speaker 1: underestimate the amount we have. Yeah. Yeah, But another kind

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Speaker 1: of extremely common human scenario where the feedback is ambiguous

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Speaker 1: would be health outcomes. You know, we do this all

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Speaker 1: the time. It's like, I feel some kind of pain

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Speaker 1: or discomfort in my body. I want to feel better.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I do something, like I take some kind of medication,

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Speaker 1: or I do some kind of exercise, and then sometime

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Speaker 1: soon after I do that something, whatever it is, I

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Speaker 1: feel better. Therefore, I'm kind of inclined to conclude that

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Speaker 1: whatever it was I did created the outcome of me

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Speaker 1: feeling better. And maybe it did or maybe it didn't.

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Speaker 1: Like without clear evidence, the kind of clear evidence that

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Speaker 1: we have from like a randomized controlled trial, it's hard

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Speaker 1: to know whether the intervention is what did it or

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Speaker 1: whether you simply started to feel better anyway due to

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Speaker 1: regression to the mean. But you know, according to the

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Speaker 1: control heuristic, you would like you would have a hit

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Speaker 1: on whatever that intervention was, and then therefore it would

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Speaker 1: feel like whatever you did was the decisive factor. You

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Speaker 1: were the controlling factor there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and even when you're aware of this,

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Speaker 3: you're kind of left sometimes. I mean, I speak from

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Speaker 3: my own experience here in a situation where you're like, well, okay,

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Speaker 3: my doctor said to try taking the supplement, and I did,

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Speaker 3: and then I got to feeling better. But I could

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Speaker 3: have easily just that could have just been at the

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Speaker 3: point at which my body was healing back up again.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's like there might not be a connection there,

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Speaker 3: But maybe I just keep taking them because it you know,

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Speaker 3: like it kind of comes back to, you know, the

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Speaker 3: reduced cost of keeping an ambulant in your pocket. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's not inconvenience me and inconveniencing me to do this,

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Speaker 3: So I guess I'll keep doing it just in case

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Speaker 3: there was some line up between these two things.

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Speaker 1: Sure, and you never know, So if the feedback is ambiguous,

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Speaker 1: maybe it is doing something. And if it's not like

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Speaker 1: super costly or hurting you in some other way, why

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Speaker 1: not do it it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so it can be frustrating that a lot

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Speaker 3: of things in life end up being like this, for sure.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, I think this control heuristic model makes a

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Speaker 1: lot of sense. I don't think we can say for

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Speaker 1: sure that this is the best explanation for why we

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Speaker 1: experience of illusions of control, But it seems like a

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Speaker 1: good candidate to me. It seems at least to have

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Speaker 1: a pretty to work as a pretty strong working hypothesis. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this brings us to the next question addressed in

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Speaker 1: Thompson's chapter, which connects to something we've we've brought up

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Speaker 1: in both directions now, which is what are the implications

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Speaker 1: of illusions of control in our lives? Like, how do

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Speaker 1: these illusions affect us? And do they do they ultimately

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Speaker 1: help us more or hurt us more?

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Speaker 3: Because I think a lot of us here that we're

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Speaker 3: illusion and we think of illusion as unreality, and you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe we don't like the idea that we're just wandering

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Speaker 3: about in our daily lives confronted by illusions. But of

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Speaker 3: course there's a lot to our perception of real that

436
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 3: is illusory, you know, as we've discussed many times in

437
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 3: the show before. So just because as an illusion doesn't

438
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 3: necessarily mean it's bad, but also illusions can be disruptive

439
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 3: as well.

440
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: Right, So I just think it's worth looking at ways

441
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: in which illusions of control can be both bad and

442
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 1: good and spoiler alert, it seems that the evidence is

443
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 1: that they are both. They both help us and hurt us.

444
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: So on the positive side, one thing that Thompson talks

445
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: about is, you know, the idea that human beings are

446
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: clearly motivated to believe that we have agency over outcomes

447
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: in our lives. And research has found that in general,

448
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 1: belief in quote control and a sense of self efficacy

449
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: the fact that you have agency over your life, you

450
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: can take actions and they do have an effect. That

451
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: those things are correlated with desirable outcomes like better coping

452
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: with stress, better performance on tasks, and some health related outcomes.

453
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes health has been shown to benefit from these feelings.

454
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: So it seems that in multiple ways it is good

455
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: for us to believe that we have the ability to

456
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: affect what happens in our lives. And you can see how.

457
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: Of course, in one sense that would be good because

458
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: it is actually good to have control over your own

459
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: life to a certain extent, you know, so like it

460
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: is good to in reality be in control over your fate.

461
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: But would the belief in self efficacy itself be beneficial

462
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: even if it weren't always true, And it seems there

463
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 1: is some research indicating the answer to this, at least

464
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: in some ways is yes. So there are some findings

465
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: that show that a tendency toward illusions of control might

466
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: help us avoid discouragement when pursuing a goal. So the

467
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: illusion of control could help inculcate a sense of persistence

468
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: in goal attainment behavior, especially when facing difficult conditions or setbacks.

469
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: And also, illusory control seems to help in mitigating disappointment

470
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: leading to negative mood. It possibly is even protective to

471
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: some degree against depression. So to the extent that it

472
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: is able to provide sort of like mood regulation and

473
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: help maintain motivation and protect against depression, that seems like

474
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: that would have very clear benefits on well being.

475
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

476
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: Another thing that's interesting is we talked in the last

477
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: episode about research finding an association between illusory control and

478
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: personal power. But the kind of interesting thing is that

479
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: that causation could go either way or both ways. So

480
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 1: it could be that positions of power cause people to

481
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 1: have more illusions of control, but it could also be

482
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: that illusions of control tend to increase the likelihood that

483
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: somebody ends up in a position of power, So it

484
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: could literally lead to you know, you being essentially better

485
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: able to attain goals, or I don't know, maybe having

486
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: other people vw you you more positively and wanting to

487
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: promote you in some way or empower you in some way. So,

488
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: I don't know. When you combine all this together, it

489
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: looks like there's pretty good reason to think that illusions

490
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: of control help maintain positive emotions and can help a

491
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: person maintain a sort of confidence or action orientation, essentially

492
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: the motivation to keep actively doing things to try to

493
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: achieve your goals. But it's not all flowers and butterflies.

494
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: We mentioned earlier that list of negative consequences that have

495
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: been found to flow from illusions of control, and Thompson

496
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: mentions a bunch of negative consequences as well. I'm not

497
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: going to get into all of them here because there's

498
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: some overlap with what we've already talked about and so forth,

499
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: but just briefly, a couple of things. One is, remember

500
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: the study we talked about last time from McKenna from

501
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, which found the tendency to believe that

502
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: you would be able to exert more control than other

503
00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: drivers on the road. Subsequent research by Schlehofer twenty ten

504
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: that Schlehelfer and co authors from twenty ten found that

505
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: people who show greater illusions of control about driving were

506
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: also more likely to drive while trying to use a

507
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: cell phone simultaneously. In reality, and you can kind of

508
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: see how that would extend from the belief that you

509
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: have more control over chance based outcomes than other people do.

510
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: But it actually, in this case leads to a behavior

511
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: that compromises your control, you know, it compromises your driving

512
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: ability and makes a fatal crash more likely. And there

513
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: are apparently a lot of examples like this where people

514
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: who exhibit greater illusions of control, which might not necessarily

515
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: be a you know, like a stable feature of a

516
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: person's personality across their whole life. It could also be situational.

517
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: But in situations where people show greater illusions of control,

518
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: it has been linked to taking fewer protective measures against diseases,

519
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: to making worse decisions as financial traders, and to engaging

520
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: in problem gambling behaviors. In fact, there was one thing

521
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: in particular in this part of the chapter Thompson brought

522
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: up that I thought was an interesting finding. So this

523
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: was from a paper by cow Leie at all in

524
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, and it found that there was a difference

525
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: in how high illusory control gamblers would review a gambling

526
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: session after it was over versus people who had low

527
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: illusory control. So you have gamblers, they go out, they

528
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: gamble a bunch, and then they lose a bunch of money,

529
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: and then they are asked to reflect back on the

530
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: gaming session. Apparently, high illusory control gamblers would focus on

531
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: their highest individual win within the session, whereas low illusory

532
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: control gamblers would have a more total view of the

533
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: session and note like their the final outcome, like what

534
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: were their winnings or losings at the end of it.

535
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: And so I think I thought that was really interesting. So,

536
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: if you're in a condition where you're especially prone to

537
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: illusions of control about gambling, apparently the salient piece of

538
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: information to you about the whole session was like your

539
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: best hand of the night, your best payout at the

540
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: slot machine in a single moment, and maybe even though

541
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: you like lost everything overall, the important thing to remember

542
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: was that moment when everything was looking really good.

543
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: And it's kind of twisted, right, because it's in it

544
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 3: to a sense, it's looking on the sunny side of life, right,

545
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 3: it's being an optimist. It's looking back on your experiences

546
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 3: and not focusing on the negatives but focusing on the positives.

547
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 3: But and that's great. I mean that to a certain extent,

548
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 3: that's what you should do. But also you want to

549
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 3: be able to correctly learn from your mistakes and do

550
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: an accurate postop on things that you've done in life.

551
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: That's a great point that this is an instinct that

552
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: in other contexts is a very positive one. Like if

553
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: you can, you know, if you had you know, you

554
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: had a rough day or something, if you can like

555
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: step back and focus on the best thing that happened

556
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: all day, well, you know, that's wonderful. That's like a

557
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: great thing to be able to do, unless that's like

558
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: guiding you in how you should invest your money in

559
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: the future or something.

560
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting that like the main case we're talking

561
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 3: about here gambling, especially with you know, slot machines and whatnot,

562
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 3: but just sort of gambling in general. It's basically it's

563
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 3: an artificial scenario that lines up with a lot of

564
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,239
Speaker 3: real life survival experiences that are a part of our

565
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 3: heritage and a part of our evolutionary development. You know.

566
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 3: But you know, there's competition for resources and so forth,

567
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: the use of skill, or at least a perception of

568
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 3: the use of skill in those pursuits. But the world

569
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 3: of gambling, the world of games in general, like even

570
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 3: if you're not playing for stakes, it is an artificial

571
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 3: construct that involves a lot of those survival activities.

572
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, and in fact interesting thing Thompson brings

573
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: up in this chapter. She highlights how the gambling industry

574
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: directly exploits known illusion of control triggers to pull you

575
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: in that like slot machines, it's almost like they were

576
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: designed by somebody who read a book chapter on the

577
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: illusion of control, and they were doing a checklist like okay, familiarity, involvement, success, emphasis,

578
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: They really like, quite fiendishly like hit on all of

579
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: the things that seem to illicit higher illusions of control.

580
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: Another interesting thing about illusion of control and gambling brought

581
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: up in this chapter is a neuroimaging study. This was

582
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: research done by hudgens Haney at All in twenty thirteen.

583
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: They're studying real time brain activity of people who had

584
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: gambling problems versus non problem gamblers when playing games that

585
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: have some level of control. Like poker versus games that

586
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: are purely chance based, like Roulette. And the interesting finding

587
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: was that, Okay, you take people who don't have a

588
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: history of gambling problems, they show a very different level

589
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: of neural engagement in skill games versus chance games. So

590
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: you put them in a game of skill, they're going

591
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: to be very engaged. You put them in a game

592
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: of chance, and they will show less activity in the

593
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: visual and prefrontal cortex than they did in the skill game.

594
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: People who have a history of gambling problems did not

595
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: exhibit this same difference, so for them that in chance games,

596
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: the visual and prefrontal cortex was fully engaged as it

597
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: was in skill games, which, you know, it's hard to

598
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,479
Speaker 1: know exactly how to interpret that, but so at least

599
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: one possible way of thinking about that is that is

600
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: that when you have high illusions of control, you are

601
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: looking at a chance based game as if there's like

602
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: some way that you can engage to do better at it.

603
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: You're still scanning the table for advantages, but you know, actually,

604
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: if it's like Roulette, there's nothing you can do. Now.

605
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: One good thing the Thompson mentions is that there's some

606
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: evidence that problem gamblers. Ilutions of control can be mitigated

607
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: by interventions like cognitive behavioral therapy, and like we talked

608
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: about last time, at least in some situations, studies have

609
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: found that illusions of control seem to be well mitigated

610
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: by a basic reality check.

611
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean there are a lot of different

612
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: versions of this, but yeah, like with certain anxieties issues,

613
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 3: for example, there you can be taught to like put

614
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: your thoughts on trial. I've heard it referred to as such.

615
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 3: You know, where you're you're taking something that is just

616
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 3: like a almost kind of an ambient thought or way

617
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 3: of thinking in your mind, maybe not even expressed verbally

618
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 3: or otherwise, but take a moment to collect the thought

619
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,959
Speaker 3: and then properly analyze it and saying is this likely?

620
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: Is this reasonable? And so forth? And yeah, and it

621
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 3: you know, it can. It can work very well with

622
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 3: anxiety to you know, within you know limits, And then

623
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 3: it makes sense that it would work in these contexts

624
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 3: as well, you know, like okay, let's take this impulse,

625
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: let's slow it down, and let's actually let's look at

626
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 3: it from both sides here.

627
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. So I don't know,

628
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: I think this is interesting that the illusion of control

629
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: is something that is fundamentally objectively an illusion, an illusion

630
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 1: like it does generate misperceptions and false beliefs, incorrect judgments,

631
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: but to some degree it does have a positive side.

632
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: It seems illusions of control probably do help improve mood

633
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: and probably do help us persist in attaining difficult goals,

634
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: maintain you know, motivation and action orientation while we're trying

635
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: to implement making positive changes in our lives and so forth.

636
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: But then again, on the negative side, it, of course,

637
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: false beliefs can lead to all kinds of problems and

638
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: negative outcomes in the world, poor choices about how to

639
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: invest our time and efforts, and in the worst cases

640
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: can lead to dangerous and destructive behaviors. So it's a

641
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: complex phenomenon that affects our lives in both directions.

642
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Now, given all that we've discussed regarding the illusion

643
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 3: of control, you know, it should come as no surprise

644
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 3: that some have linked the concept to magical thinking in general,

645
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 3: to belief in the paranormal, because you know, what is

646
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 3: the gap between some level of belief and say, the

647
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 3: power of prayer, holy amulets, lucky objects, lucky traditions, and

648
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 3: some level of belief and say personal psychic ability or

649
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: other paranormal concepts. You know, I would even argue that

650
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 3: there's more than a little bit of crossover between these things,

651
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 3: in part based on my own experiences, my own observations

652
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 3: of how I approach certain situations. Take bowling, for example.

653
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 3: Oh boy, so bowling, great game, great fun. I maybe

654
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 3: play it two or three times per year. I don't

655
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 3: know about you, Joe.

656
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: I have not bowled in quite some time, but I

657
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: would love to. I enjoyed bowling a lot when I

658
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: was a kid. It was like one of my I

659
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: never did it all that much, but I feel like

660
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,959
Speaker 1: on those rare occasions when it was like, what would

661
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: you really like to do today, I would I would

662
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: request bowling. But of course with the bumpers, please, Yeah.

663
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 3: Those bumpers can definitely help. Now, one of the interesting

664
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 3: things about bowling is that, unlike a lot of the

665
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 3: examples we've been touching on, bowling is a game of skill.

666
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 3: So initially, your initial role directly sets the speed and

667
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 3: trajectory of the ball as it heads towards the pins.

668
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 3: Now where it gets interesting is, of course, a skilled player,

669
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 3: I'm assuming may feel entirely more in control of what

670
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 3: happens than me when eye bowl, though we've plenty of

671
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 3: info to suggest that even they, even an expert, even

672
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 3: a professional bowler, may feel like they have less control

673
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 3: than they do. And obviously plenty of pro athletes engage

674
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 3: in some kind of good luck ritual. I'd love to

675
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 3: hear from sports fans out there if you have some

676
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 3: really telling examples of this, but I feel like you

677
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 3: kind of hear about them all the time. Like you'll

678
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 3: have people that are like literally performing at the very

679
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 3: you know, top of their sport and are very competent

680
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 3: from a skill and conditioning standpoint. They have all the

681
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 3: experience in the world. You know, nobody can touch them,

682
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: and yet they will perhaps also engage in some level

683
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 3: of superstitious, you know, ritual luck scenario.

684
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. That raises a lot of questions in

685
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: my mind. But continue and maybe we'll come back.

686
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 3: So, whether you are a pro bowler or you know,

687
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 3: just a casual bowler like myself that maybe bowls, you know,

688
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 3: a few times a year, the scenario is still the same.

689
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 3: Once you send that bowl down the lane, once it

690
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 3: has left your hand, it's all set in motion. And

691
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 3: yet I certainly have time and time again caught myself

692
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 3: in that those moments before it hits trying to nudge

693
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 3: the ball with my mind toward the center pin. You know,

694
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 3: not actually you know, rationally believing I have that power

695
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 3: to do it. Not like turning to everyone and being like,

696
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 3: all right, watch this, everybody, I'm gonna bowl and then

697
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 3: I'm gonna use my telekinesis to get a stride. No, no,

698
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 3: but I'll catch myself doing something either with my hands

699
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 3: or with my will, trying to will the ball towards

700
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 3: the pins.

701
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. You know what can I say something that

702
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: I think helps influence that, even though this is a

703
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: pure misunderstanding, But rob, if you know what I'm talking about,

704
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: If you watch pro bowlers, they don't just throw the

705
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: ball straight. They put some kind of spin on it

706
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: where it like arcs or hooks. Do you know what

707
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 1: I'm talking about?

708
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, they're a number of those techniques.

709
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

710
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 3: My father in law at one point was showing me

711
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: some of those and trying to teach me how to

712
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: do the spin. And also, I mean, a very skilled

713
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: bowler can do a lot of impressive things, but it

714
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 3: doesn't change the fact that once the ball lays their hand,

715
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 3: it is set in motion. There's no more that there's

716
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 3: no telekinesis involved.

717
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: That's right, It's all there in the initial throw. So

718
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: that was their moment of control was when they were

719
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: throwing it. It's not, you know, they're not using telekinesis afterwards,

720
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: but it can kind of look like it because it's

721
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: like hooking in a way we're used to, like the

722
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: amateur is used to throwing the ball just straight, but

723
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: when you put the kind of spin on it that

724
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: makes it curve like that, it it encourages the idea

725
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: that somehow the bowler is continuing to exert control after

726
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 1: it has left their hand. Really, sometimes all in the throw, right.

727
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes there's a flourish or something. And I guess

728
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 3: to less experienced bowlers too, like myself is like sometimes

729
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 3: there is a real disconnect between what you think you're

730
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 3: about to do what the ball actually does, and that

731
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 3: can go either way. You can feel like in the

732
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 3: moment you are in a bowling movie and then you

733
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: get gutterball, or you can feel like you kind of

734
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: fumbled it and oh you got a surprise strike out

735
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 3: of it. So these sorts of things are possible. So again,

736
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 3: I don't actually believe I can mentally manipulate bowling balls

737
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 3: from a distance, but in the heat of the moment,

738
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 3: there is that feeling that I don't know, it's not

739
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 3: even a feeling that I should try to do it.

740
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 3: I just catch myself doing it, and I feel like

741
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 3: this is also interconnected with the consciously ambiguous notion of intent, aim,

742
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 3: and execution. So anyway, this connection isn't just something that

743
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about. It's also referenced in the sources

744
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: I was looking at. I was looking at a couple

745
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 3: of different papers. Both of them involve social psychologist Daniel M. Wegner,

746
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 3: who lived nineteen forty eight through twenty thirteen. I believe

747
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 3: he's come up on the show before, so he mentions

748
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 3: this connection between magical thinking and the illusion of control

749
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 3: in two thousand and eight self is Magic. And then

750
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 3: there's also a paper I was looking at on which

751
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 3: he was a co author, every Day Powers the role

752
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 3: of apparent mental causation in the over estimation of personal influence.

753
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: The lead author on that was psychologist Emily Pronin. This

754
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 3: was from two thousand and six. Both of these reference Thompson,

755
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 3: by the way. Now in the prone and paper, the

756
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 3: authors argue that magical thinking may serve a motivational purpose,

757
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 3: especially in times of stress and uncertainty, and they point

758
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 3: to several different documented cases of this from arise in

759
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 3: magical thinking among Germans in the interwar period and police

760
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 3: officers working in high risk environments. They also point out

761
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 3: some health related scenarios that I believe that this is

762
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 3: directly from Thompson's research, and then they write, quote, even

763
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 3: when people recognize the control over life events may be

764
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: impossible to achieve, magical beliefs or may arise out of

765
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 3: a motivation to find meaning in that which they cannot control.

766
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 3: So they've gotten to point out that quote, basic cognitive

767
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 3: errors involving the perception of causal relationships when only non

768
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 3: causal associations are present, along with a need to control

769
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 3: things and uncontrollable situations, can lead to these kinds of

770
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 3: acts and beliefs. And indeed, they stress that these sorts

771
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 3: of acts may occur even when we rationally deny the connection.

772
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 3: And you know, this touches on sort of like the

773
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 3: dual nature of human cognition and belief that we've touched

774
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 3: on many times before. I mean, you can you can

775
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,919
Speaker 3: have superstitious ideas while also having rational ideas in your head.

776
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 3: You know, we can. We can balance these things and

777
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 3: switch back and forth between them, and we're not necessarily

778
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 3: completely chained to one extreme or the other.

779
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: Right, And another way of thinking about it is like

780
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: we we don't always act on what we know, or

781
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: we don't always act as if we know what we

782
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 1: know right.

783
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 3: One example that discussed in this paper is okay, thinking

784
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 3: ill of someone and then something bad happens that person

785
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 3: you were thinking ill of. They point out that this

786
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 3: may well cause feelings of guilt in you, despite the

787
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 3: fact that mere feelings cannot hurt someone. Your thoughts of

788
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 3: ill will are not going to actually harm someone without

789
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 3: without some other things happening in between. You know that

790
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 3: pure thought is not going to do it. But in

791
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 3: one of these situations you may feel that guilt. And

792
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 3: they stress that what the quote, generating consistent thoughts related

793
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 3: to an event just prior to its occurrence may be

794
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 3: sufficient to induce feelings of authorship for the event. So

795
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 3: they carried out a series of experiments that they discussed

796
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 3: in this paper involving subjects being told about a peer's

797
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 3: physical ailments on the end, on the flip side, being

798
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 3: told about a peers athletic success. And they also did

799
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 3: a third and a fourth experiment involving real athletic competitions,

800
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 3: and they summarize by saying quote. In each study, the

801
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 3: relevant outcome occurred regardless of participants. Thoughts was experimentally predetermined

802
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 3: in our first two studies, and it was part of

803
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 3: a live sporting event in our second two studies. However,

804
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 3: in each study, participants were more likely to feel and

805
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 3: believe that they were responsible for the relevant outcome if

806
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 3: they had generated prior thoughts related to it.

807
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: You know, this is interesting because this would almost connect

808
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: to Thompson's control heuristic model, except it would cut out

809
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: the need for an external action. It would be kind

810
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: of the control heuristic model if the only action you

811
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: really needed was to think about something.

812
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And you know they don't get into this

813
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: at all, but you know, I can't help but think

814
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 3: of you know, various religious worldviews that some of us

815
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 3: may have come up in where there's a lot of

816
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 3: emphasis on thought and about like thoughts, having you know,

817
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 3: thoughts for instance, themselves being sinful and so forth, you know,

818
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 3: and therefore having like this, this reality that goes beyond

819
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 3: mir you know, some mint internalness. But in any rate,

820
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 3: that would have to be something that is explored in

821
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 3: another paper, another discussion. Now in Wegner's self is magic.

822
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 3: His words remind me once more of the bowling example.

823
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 3: We're just we're just talking about again, there's a disconnect

824
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 3: between my muscle memory, my actions, and my perceptions of

825
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 3: the ball rolling toward and hopefully hitting the pins. And

826
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 3: it's not just me, and it's not just bowling. This

827
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 3: exact situation applies to a great deal of the human condition.

828
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 3: He points out that our brain only presents us with quote,

829
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 3: a relatively impoverished account of its own operations, and our

830
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 3: attempt to make sense of the evidence yields the impression

831
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 3: that we are freely willing our actions.

832
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: Ah. Yeah, well this is a fantastic point, because I

833
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: mean it not only you know, can you not understand

834
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: the difference of why, you know, one time you throw

835
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: a bowling ball and it was a strike, and another

836
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: time you threw it and it was a butter ball.

837
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: It's not like you know. It can be frustrating that

838
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: you don't know what made the difference in those two attempts.

839
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 1: But it can also like you can take a step

840
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: further back and try to examine your authorship of all

841
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: the actions you take, not just like throwing a bowling ball,

842
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: but every single thing you do throughout the day, and

843
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: it becomes increasingly unclear what the difference was that made

844
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: you do anything versus anything else.

845
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. He points out there's a certain amount of

846
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 3: inference when it comes to connecting our thoughts to our

847
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 3: actions in general and magical thinking, he stresses, occurs when

848
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 3: people quote draw causal inferences relating their thought to their action,

849
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 3: so the perception of one's own causality is subject to error,

850
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 3: and he uses a great example here in his writing

851
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 3: that of turning on a light in your house. Okay,

852
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 3: simple thing. We do it all the time. And the

853
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: thing is, though we may do it with varying degrees

854
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 3: of a parent will flay. So if you think to yourself, well,

855
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 3: it's dark in here, I should nay, will turn on

856
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 3: the light, and then you do it. Well, this act

857
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,240
Speaker 3: may feel quite wilful.

858
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: Right, but sometimes it's not that conscious or not that intentional,

859
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: is it.

860
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 3: That's right, he says. Sometimes you might think to yourself, Man,

861
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 3: a cookie sure would be nice right now. So what

862
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 3: do you do? You walk into the dark kitchen and

863
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 3: absentmindedly turn on the light on the way to the

864
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 3: cookie jar. And in this case, the act of turning

865
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 3: on the light may quote feel less willed and more

866
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 3: like some sort of alien control.

867
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:39,280
Speaker 1: Ah. So the connection between intention and efficacy or cause

868
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: in the world can be mysterious in multiple ways. Like

869
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: if I don't remember willing myself to turn on the

870
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: light right before I do it, it can seem like

871
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: some kind of unconscious magic force might have taken over

872
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: and replaced my conscious will. But at the same time,

873
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: going back to the previous study you talked about, if

874
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: I do remember consciously willing something to happen, and then

875
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: it happens without me taking any apparent action to cause it,

876
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 1: I can start to wonder again if there's some mysterious

877
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: connecting principle at work also regarding mysterious unconscious actions we take.

878
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: I've wanted to mention that as you were talking, Rob,

879
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: I just realized that I've been fiddling with the coiled

880
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: cable that connects my headphones to my microphone, like wrapping

881
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: it around my thumb. I was previously not conscious of

882
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: doing this. I have no idea why I was doing it,

883
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: don't know.

884
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there are so many examples of this in

885
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 3: our life, and some of them we catch, sometimes some

886
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 3: we don't, you know. And it's just a peek into

887
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 3: some of the ways that an individual might develop a

888
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 3: view that they can exert psychic, magical, or some other

889
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 3: form of paranormal control over reality. You know, there are

890
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 3: other possibilities, other factors involved in this as well. This

891
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 3: is not like a you know, the one recipe for

892
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 3: this line of thinking. But and then likewise, going back

893
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 3: we were talking about earlier about people in power and

894
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 3: so forth, we might factor it into cases where individuals

895
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 3: put faith in another person's supposed powers magical, psychic, et cetera.

896
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 3: Or even you can cut all the way away that

897
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 3: away and get back to just the idea that like, oh,

898
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 3: this person's influential, this person can get things done. You know,

899
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 3: if they believe it, and you know, tying in their charisma,

900
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 3: they're you know, they're seeming authenticity, we might be more

901
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 3: likely to buy into that, might buy into the fact

902
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 3: that they're a great leader might buy into the fact

903
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 3: that they can move things with their minds and so forth.

904
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 3: So it's it's it's fascinating to to take all this,

905
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 3: you know, to take the illusion of control and apply

906
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 3: it to this to some of these scenarios, and think

907
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 3: about how it could be a contributing factor to some

908
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,399
Speaker 3: of these scenarios. Again where one one believes that they

909
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 3: have some sort of a power or feeding into this

910
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 3: this individual that other people believe have a power. Yeah.

911
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's really interesting this connection to the idea

912
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: that really analyzing or interrogating the concept of willful control

913
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 1: over things makes it more and more mysterious. Yeah, makes

914
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,760
Speaker 1: it seem like maybe magic could be involved.

915
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, And again there are other factors to be sure,

916
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 3: kind of going back to the example of like sin

917
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 3: and thought. If there is a worldview that one or

918
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 3: you know, some sort of script or programming that one

919
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 3: is privy to that encourages an idea of say miracles

920
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 3: or psychic powers, you know, be it something that is

921
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: religious in nature or or or even you know, non

922
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 3: religious and more say based in you know, conspiracy thinking

923
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 3: and so forth. You know, that also could could play

924
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,879
Speaker 3: a role, among other things, their whole host of things

925
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 3: influencing our worldview and the way we interact with reality.

926
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have really enjoyed exploring illusion of control with you, Rob.

927
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: This this has been an interesting one.

928
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean it's it's it's always fascinating,

929
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 3: sometimes a little haunting when when we start teasing apart

930
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 3: these uh, these subjects that involve our outlook on reality

931
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,839
Speaker 3: and so forth, and especially illusions. Uh, you know, because

932
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 3: it's sometimes it's pointed out that you know, we are

933
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 3: also an illusion. Our sense of self is an illusion.

934
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 3: So uh, you know, it can feel a little a

935
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 3: little challenging at times to h to start pulling the threads,

936
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,879
Speaker 3: but also rewarding in the end to all right, we're

937
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 3: going to go ahead and close out here, but we'd

938
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 3: love to hear from everybody if you have thoughts on

939
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 3: the illusion of control some of the specific examples we

940
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 3: touched on here, Even something as simple as your favorite

941
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 3: example of a professional athlete who has some sort of

942
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 3: a ritual that they engage in. You know, despite the

943
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 3: fact that you know their their skill and their conditioning

944
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 3: and so forth, is is beyond reproach. We'd love to

945
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 3: hear from you. We'll throw out that email address here

946
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 3: in a minute, but before we do, let's see what

947
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: else do we need to mention here. Remind everyone as

948
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 3: usual that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a

949
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 3: science podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, lister

950
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 3: mail on Monday, short form episode on Wednesdays, in a

951
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 3: weird house cinemon Fridays. That's our time to set aside

952
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 3: most serious concerns and just talk about a weird movie.

953
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 3: Let's see. Also, we'll point out that other ways you

954
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,879
Speaker 3: can get in touch with the show and or other

955
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 3: listeners of the show. There's a discord group. You can

956
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 3: email us and we'll send you that discord link. If

957
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 3: you're on Facebook, there is a Facebook group. It's called

958
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 3: the Stuff to Blow your Mind Discussion module. Seek it

959
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 3: out and you can request access and you just have

960
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 3: to answer a very easy trivia question to gain access.

961
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 3: So if you want to interact with other listeners, that's

962
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 3: a great place to go. And in general, yeah, we

963
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 3: thank everyone out there for listening to the show, and

964
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,879
Speaker 3: if you have time and the power to do so,

965
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 3: give us some stars, give us a nice review somewhere

966
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 3: that also helps us out.

967
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Pauseway.

968
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

969
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,320
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

970
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,399
Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

971
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

972
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com.

973
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,759
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974
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:26,680
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975
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:42,759
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