1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Why from our nation's camera this budget thing is going 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: to do nothing Space Force. I still think it's interesting 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: President Trump not playing his cards yet. Headlines Policy and 4 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: politics colliding Floomberg Sound On, the Insiders, the influencers, the insides. 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: I would rather see a congressional solution. It's part of 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: my DNA. The Senate map in looks a lot different 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: than it looked in. You really have a divide within 8 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: Team Trump. The president has to do exactly what people 9 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: sent him here to do, which is to get it done. 10 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Sound On with Kevin Shirley on Bloomberg 11 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: one and one oh five point seven fm h D two. 12 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: I'm Jim Grasso sitting in for Kevin. So really on 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: a night when impeachment is going prime time and a 14 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: few hours the House will begin debating two articles of 15 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: impeachment against President Donald Trump. And today the Justice Department's 16 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 1: Inspector General testified the FBI was justified in opening its 17 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: investigation and ties between the Trump presidential campaign and Russia, 18 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: but found serious problems with the way it was conducted. 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: That adds fuel to the partisan battles over that investigation. 20 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: Plus the Federal Reserve leads interest rates unchanged and signals 21 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: it will keep them on hold through sticking to the 22 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: sidelines during an election year. Well, the House Judiciary Committee 23 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: begins a historic televised debate in primetime tonight on two 24 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: narrowly written articles of impeachment against President Trump that accused 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: him of abusing the power of his office and keeping 26 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: Congress from exercising its duty as a check on the 27 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: executive branch. At a rally in Pennsylvania last night, Trump 28 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: tried to downplay the importance of the impeachment. This is 29 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: the lightest impeachment in the history of our country by far. 30 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: It's not even like an impeachment, So impeachment light. Joining 31 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: me in our New York studio is Max Burns, Democratic 32 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: strategist and contributor at The Daily Beast and The Independent, 33 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: And in our DC studio, D Doppler, Senior fellow with 34 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: the National Taxpayers Junior and former Coalitions director for the 35 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: House Republican Conference. So Max, you're here, I'll start with 36 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: you first. What about President Trump's new reaction to this, 37 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: the fact that the articles are so narrowly drawn, calling 38 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: an impeachment light, Well, this is now going to be 39 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: the narrative once this all passes, is Trump will say 40 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: I've never was actually impeached, that this will be an 41 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: aster risk like Barry Bonds and the home run record, 42 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: that this was somehow a less legitimate impeachment because there 43 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: weren't five or six articles. But in fact, I think 44 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: the fact that it's a narrow impeachment makes it much stronger. 45 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: We're focusing specifically on obstruction of justice and the abusive 46 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: power related to Ukraine. Uh. I know Jerry Nadler very 47 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: much would have liked to have another article on Robert 48 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: Mueller in there, but this is designed not just to 49 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: be a strong case on the strongest points of a 50 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: presidential abuse, but also something that purple state Democrats can 51 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: go back to their districts and liably sell to voters 52 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: that this wasn't a phishing expedition, that we looked at 53 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: this exhaustively in the Intelligence Committee and on the Judiciary 54 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: Committee and came away with things that we really feel 55 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: are provable evidence of wrongdoing. Maddie, what's your take on 56 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: the narrow articles of impeachment? What we have us saying 57 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: here in d C that if you're talking process, you're losing, 58 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: and up until this point, that was the Republican approach, 59 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: talking about how we'd arrived at this point and why 60 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: the president wasn't his conduct may have been unseemly but 61 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: not impeachable. And now you see the President, I think, 62 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: pivot a little bit, recognizing that he wants the force 63 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: Democrats to explain what we've impeached you on one or 64 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: two causes, but maybe not three or four. And he 65 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: knows that as an argument that I don't think will 66 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: resonate with American people, and I think that it is 67 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: somewhat telling. The cadence of the way things have unveiled 68 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: here in Washington also also illustrate that point, which is 69 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: that you had articles of impeachment announced that I am. 70 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: You had an introduction of a U S M C 71 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: A deal announced at ten am. I mean, if you 72 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: are someone watching these proceedings, it seems to me that 73 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: Democratic leadership knows they need to get the impeachment ball rolling. 74 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: But they also heard from their members who came back 75 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: from this last things giving break, who wanted to have 76 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: something to show their constituents that wasn't just impeachment was 77 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: a little bit meteor shows that the Democrats want to 78 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: do something with their majority in the House, and certainly 79 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: this push on U. S. M. C A. And you've 80 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: seen both the House and the White House try to 81 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: take credit for the agreement. Now, this push right after 82 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: this announcement of the articles of impeachment, I think indicates 83 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: that Democrats really want to have something else to run on, 84 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: something else to pivot too, because impeachment might not be 85 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: the slam dunk that they initially thought it would be. 86 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: And you have to remember that when we look back 87 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: in history, no one really remembers until there's another impeachment 88 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: how many articles there were against against Nixon or Clinton. 89 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: I had to look it up myself, and I keep 90 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: going back to it. So, but so, tonight we have 91 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: the Judiciary Committee, which is one of the largest panels 92 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: that Congress, forty one members. They're all going to deliver 93 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: five minute opening statements before debate begins. Maddie, do you 94 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: expected to hold the viewers? I don't. I mean, at 95 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: this point we've kind of I think we've reached both 96 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of viewer fatigue on the proceedings because again, 97 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: mostly American people don't pay attention to what committee is 98 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,559 Speaker 1: holding a hearing and how it's substantially different from another 99 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: committee holding a hearing. And also, you know, the American 100 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: people are busy running their families, they're getting home from work. 101 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: I don't know that anyone's running to their TVs to 102 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: turn on the impeachment proceedings to watch Washington politicians going 103 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: on for for several hours. I think that Democrats have 104 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: a challenge here, which is to explain not only what 105 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: it is, why what they're doing is important, but also 106 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: what end it will achieve, because I think that the 107 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: one thing that the American public are probably paying attention 108 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: to is that some of this now is a little 109 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: bit of foregone conclusion. We always kind of assume the 110 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: House would proceed along these lines, it would go over 111 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: to the Senate. The Senate then would probably acquit and 112 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: then guess what, we're off of the races. And the 113 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: President then has the win at his back, because he 114 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: certainly will use that as a campaign talking point to 115 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: say that listen, I've been acquitted. There's no wrongdoing here. Max. 116 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: What can the Democrats do to make it, let's say, 117 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: more exciting. Well, I think what was absolutely right there 118 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: is the idea that people are going to see essentially 119 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: their own member of Congress on local TV giving their 120 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: five minutes and maybe a clipper too. Else. There's just 121 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: so much content here, and we see that voters, especially 122 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: Democratic primary voters, aren't really talking about impeachment that much. 123 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: In Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina. They're talking about the 124 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: trade war, they're talking about college tuition, they're talking about healthcare. Uh. 125 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: And it's it's something where Democratic voters have really made 126 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: up their mind. I think we see in in a 127 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: number of polls about eighty or eighty five percent of 128 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: voters have already made up their mind where they sit 129 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: on this, and maybe fiftcent will be interested in making 130 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: a decision before this is over. Uh. The way to 131 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: sell this for Democrats is to tie this directly into 132 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: the fact that Donald Trump's policies also hurt you. I 133 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: think this is something that impeachment is is a bit 134 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: of an academic thing, quite honestly, for voters to get. 135 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: But once we get to a trial, I think voters 136 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: will start paying more attention. The Senate's going to be 137 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: where I think a lot of the excitement is if 138 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: you weren't moved by Fiona Hill or Professor Carlin or 139 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: Professor Feldman or any of these people throwing the best 140 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: stuff they had for national cameras. Then it's doubtful that 141 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: five minutes of speech from a congress person you've never 142 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: heard of is really going to move you to take 143 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: a position on this. And I think you can see 144 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: what's happening in d C that those anxieties are being 145 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: laid bare by what the leadership in DC is doing. 146 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: I mean, today you had a hearing in Health Ways 147 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: and Means on reducing the eliminating the salt cap, the 148 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: tax um that was put in place by the Tax 149 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: Cutting Jobs Act, something that Democrats have been talking about 150 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: as priority for them on tax policy since day one. 151 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: You've got Pelosi pushing to do uh drug pricing bills, 152 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: You've got this pivot to U S M c A. 153 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it is obvious to me that Democrats are 154 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: very worried that everything. Max just stated the fact that 155 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: this is not necessarily going to break through that that 156 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: is a concern for them and they need to have 157 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: something else that they can show before they leave for 158 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: that winter break. Max, you mentioned that they're more more 159 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 1: excitement with the Senate trial, but does it seem there 160 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: are reports that the Senate Republicans that there's an early 161 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: consensus that they want to short impeachment trial. President Trump 162 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:45,239 Speaker 1: has said and indicated that he wants a long, dramatic 163 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: trial with live witnesses. What do you think is really 164 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: going to happen. Is it going to be that exciting 165 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: or are they going to try to keep it sure? Yeah, 166 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: this is the big split because Mitch McConnell is dead 167 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,479 Speaker 1: set on doing this as quickly and quietly as possible. 168 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: But we've seen before are the best laid plans of 169 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: the Senate when they run against Donald Trump's Twitter account 170 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: and his rallies. Uh barred from presenting witnesses that that 171 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: the President thinks will help him, the President will conduct 172 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: essentially his own trial on social media, and that runs 173 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: the risk of derailing once again the Republicans plans in 174 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: the Senate to just wrap this as quickly as possible 175 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: and focus very tightly. The President is even held out 176 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: the idea of Rudy Giuliani testifying under oath in the Senate, 177 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: which would be one of the most disastrous things that 178 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: would almost make the case for impeachment better than Democrats could. 179 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: Democrats are like waiting to see if they can get 180 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: Giuliani because but that would open up I don't even 181 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: know a whole new bollo ax, as they say, I 182 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: don't know where that would go. Maddie, what do you 183 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: see as far as the Republicans and the Senate? So 184 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: the Senate is an interesting question. I agree with Max 185 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: on this that that is certainly kind of where the 186 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: spectacle is because it's an actual trial, right, that's a 187 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: prem court is involved. All Senators have to be sitting 188 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: and contributing to the trial, which actually, that to me 189 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: is really the crux of the issue. When does the 190 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: Senate impeachment trial happened? Because remember when we come back 191 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: in the new year, we're early a month away from 192 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: the start of the Iowa caucuses, and we've got New 193 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: Hampshire right after that, and you have if you're a 194 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: Democrat senator who's running for president, and you're all of 195 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: your time is being taken up in Washington's impeachment trial, 196 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: you're not out campaigning. So I do think that miss 197 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 1: McConnell has motivation to potentially have this trial drag drag 198 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: out further than just those first few weeks in January. 199 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: And again, I'll return to this tension between impeachment and 200 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: U S. M c A. Both are highly privileged UH 201 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: notices that are sent to the Senate in different ways. 202 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: But it also means that in the Senate, where you 203 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: always have a consideration about how much four time is available, 204 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: it makes those considerations even more acute, and the leader 205 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: will have to juggle both those concerns going into the 206 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: new year and going into the start of the presidential 207 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: right and UH Mitch McConnell said yesterday at least that 208 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: he couldn't get both those things done obviously before the break. 209 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: So now we're going to turn to another fascinating issue 210 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: and also some hot testimony on Capitol Hill as the 211 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: Inspector General defended his report from attacks from by the 212 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: President as well as the Attorney General. That's coming up. 213 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: And remember to download the Bloomberg Sound On podcast on iTunes, 214 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com, or just by downloading the Bloomberg 215 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: Business app. You can also find us on Radio dot com, 216 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, and Spotify. I'm June Grosso and you're 217 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Sound On with 218 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: Kevin Surley on Bloomberg and one A five point seven 219 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: fm h D two. I'm June Grosso, sitting in for 220 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: Kevin Surreally, the Justice Departments Inspector General testified today that 221 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: the FBI was justified in opening its investigation in two 222 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: ties between the Trump president dential campaign and Russia, but 223 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: he found serious problems with the way the FBI conducted 224 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: the investigation. Here, he is so many basic and fundamental 225 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: errors were made by three separate, handpicked investigative teams and 226 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: one of the most sensitive FBI investigations after the matter 227 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: had been briefed to the highest levels within the FBI. 228 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: I've been talking to Maddie Doubler, senior fellow with the 229 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: National Taxpayers Union, and Max Burns, Democratic strategist. Maddie, I'll 230 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: start with you. It seemed as if the Inspector General's 231 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: testimony it was okay, it was justified, but there were 232 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: all these problems should have satisfied both sides, but instead 233 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: it just seemed to have fueled more partisan divide. Right, 234 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: you nailed that was hitting the nail on the head. Really, 235 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: there's something for everyone to hate or something for everyone 236 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: to love. Republicans certainly felt vindicated because of the amount 237 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: of error that was profiled in this report. Democrats, of course, 238 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 1: saying that Republicans who had operated under the assumption that 239 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: all of this was a conspiracy or a product of 240 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: the deep state had been vacated from from that argument. 241 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: You know, to me, just watching the proceedings today, I 242 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: was reminded of the argument over fight to begin with, 243 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: where all the libertarians we're telling both Republicans and Democrats 244 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: that this is a bad idea to allow the big 245 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: to allow government to spine average Americans, there will not 246 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: be the protections that you argue will be there in place. 247 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: I think that really, at the end of the day, 248 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: they're the only people who can feel vindicated after today, 249 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: which is that maybe we should be concerned about the 250 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: surveillance state and what it's capable of and what we 251 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: actually do or don't know about it, because it certainly 252 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: is the case. I think that the question was raised 253 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 1: when looking at this report, which is how expansive are 254 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: these practices and if they are in fact able to 255 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: run amok as Republicans are alleging, is there any way 256 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: to really allow for any kind of transparency or accountability there? Uh? 257 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of the errors detailed 258 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: with the FBI's proceedings raise a question about whether or 259 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: not the average American is protected from this kind of surveillance. 260 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: But Max, I have to say that if every time, 261 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: in fact most in most trials, when there's an FBI investigation, 262 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: you learned that the defense objects because the FBI wasn't 263 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: the warrant wasn't based on justifiable reasons, that happens a lot. 264 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: But is this more than that? No. I think Michael 265 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: Horowitz his credit, Michael Horowitz deserves a medal for going 266 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: into this as a an a political respected investigator, thrown 267 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: really into a firestorm of partisanship in the Senate. Uh. 268 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: What we saw there was Horowitz say very clearly that 269 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: this investigation was not predicated on the Steel dossier, that 270 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: the Vice A warrants were handled correctly, even though there 271 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: were some errors in how some of the information was 272 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: presented or omitted. And as Maddie said, those of us 273 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: who were civil libertarians and concerned about the expansion of 274 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: national security state have had concerns about that for quite 275 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: a while. What's shocking here is that two weeks ago 276 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: the Republicans in the Senate who were tearing Michael horrowit's apart. 277 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: Today we're on Fox News saying the horror Wits report 278 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: was going to blow the lid off the deep state, 279 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: that this was going to show all of the wrongdoing 280 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: done by the Obama administration and by Democrats to get 281 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, and we've come away with none of that. 282 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: And in response now they're saying, actually, just wait for 283 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: John Durham's report. That's going to be the real report. 284 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: And so the goalpost movie yet again as reality encroaches 285 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: on these high level conspiracy theories. And Maddie, yesterday we 286 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: saw the interview with the Wall Street Journal that the 287 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: Attorney General Bill bar did, uh, what's your take on 288 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: his just sort of putting down his own Inspector General's report, right, 289 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: And this is why I returned to the notion Diet, 290 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: I don't know that any of the proceedings impeachment, the 291 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: report from the i G any of this is helping 292 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: Washington's viewpoint um onto the American public, which is that 293 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: I don't think the average American knows the difference between 294 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: Bill Barr or Mr Horowitz are done, and they don't 295 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: pay attention. They see everyone is a Washington bureaucrat. So 296 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: this notion, as Max brought up that Republicans parsoning who 297 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: has the latest talking point that aligns with what they've 298 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: been saying for years, or Democrats arguing that one conspiracy 299 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: is vacated so all of the allegations are false. I 300 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: don't think Americans are following this, nor do they want to. 301 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: They want to know who in power in Washington is 302 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: do anythings that benefits them that improves their individual circumstances. 303 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: And I don't think the more oxygen that is devoted 304 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: to these kinds of political meanderings, I think the less 305 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: Americans are going to pay attention to that. And you know, 306 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: I bring that up because this is December of twenty nineteen, 307 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: and next year it's going to be all about who 308 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: is going to deliver for the American public. We are 309 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: going to be in the middle of an election cycle 310 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: where that is the question that kids need to be answering. 311 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: And I think we've seen a little bit about this 312 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: from Democratic from Democrats running in the primary to where 313 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: it took a long time for some of these firebrands 314 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: to really come down hard and impeachment, and even then 315 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: there's really no strong consensus from everyone running in the 316 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: Democratic primary about how all of these things should unfold. 317 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: And again, I think it's because there's a little bit 318 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: of fatigue for some of these American voters who are 319 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: watching the circus in Washington, and what they want to 320 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: know is who's going to deliver from them, and they 321 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: don't think either side is capable at this time. Fatigued. 322 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: I have fatigued, And this is my job to listen 323 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: to the news and to cover the news, and yet 324 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: you know so much is happening that and true, come 325 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: come election time, is anyone going to remember Michael Horowitz 326 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: his name? Nope, Nope, nope. I think we can both 327 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: agree on that. And then that's the question, right is 328 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: like what do Democrats do with this? Then? If the 329 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: if the ball is in Democrats court where they really 330 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: like they're vindicated by this, what do they do with it? 331 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 1: Because at the same time, they've got these competing priorities. 332 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: If if impeachment is the thing that's going to stick, 333 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: how does that tie into this testimony that's happening with 334 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: the i G. Today, It's it's almost like too many 335 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: balls in the air. And we already know politicians don't 336 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: multitask particularly well and when you're going into the last 337 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: couple of days of session, where everyone's here in Washington 338 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: trying to get the last word. I'm not sure that 339 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: this benefits Democrats who really felt that the wind was 340 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 1: at their back going into this week. It's exhausting, Max, 341 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: it is. And that's the real shame of it. Is 342 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: it In this sort of scandal a day government that 343 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: we have now, we have failed to differentiate the circus 344 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: from the substantive. I mean, the fact is what Bill 345 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: Barr is doing at the moment is deeply morally troubling. 346 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: The politicization of the Department of Justice is a worrisome 347 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: issue that should concern Democrats and Republicans. I mean, Bill 348 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: Barr stood up and said it's routine for campaigns to 349 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: have foreign contact. That's not true. That the Obama iministration 350 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: spied on Donald Trump, that's not true. And he read 351 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 1: this report. He knew these things were not true when 352 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: he said them. And Bill Barr's willingness, more than any 353 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: attorney general in history, to play personal defender of the 354 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: president is something that creates a culture of abuse that 355 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: will take more than one administration to clean out. I 356 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: have to say that, you know, as an attorney. He 357 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: is the nation's top law enforcement official. And I know 358 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: he has said that, you know, you can't keep politics 359 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: out of this office, but you'd like to see politics 360 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: out of the office as much as possible. Um, Maddie, 361 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: do you think we'll be talking about a G. Barr 362 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: come election time? I think we'll be talking about whomever 363 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: the convenient foil is for the campaign of the moment. 364 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: And you know, I say that because I think what 365 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: Max is saying it resonates deeply with me about how 366 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 1: do you hold the chief law enforcement officer accountable? But 367 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: it resonates with me because over the last several years, 368 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: we have struggled with this question. You know, when it 369 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: was President Obama and Holder in the fast and the 370 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: furious and Republicans fell that they really couldn't get answers 371 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: out of out of the Department of Justice either. It 372 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 1: used to be, and I used to be I might 373 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: be referring, you know, two years back now, but it 374 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: used to be that this balance of powers thing worked 375 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: out okay, and that Congress could get answers out of 376 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: the executive branch of executive branch and answer to them. 377 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: Congress would withhold the purse strings it would use its 378 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: power in order to do so. And we've basically just 379 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: abandoned all of the requirements that are in place for 380 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: the different branches of government to be able to create 381 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: transparency in governance here in Washington, d C. And that 382 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,719 Speaker 1: is an abdigation that both parties are responsible for. And 383 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: this is the end results. So until we have Congress 384 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: that really does want to act, and that probably requires 385 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: a linking of arms across parties to hold different executive 386 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: officers accountable, I think that we're in for a long 387 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: road of this continual kind of practice. Next. I wonder 388 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: now the Supreme Court is consider it ring on Friday 389 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: whether to take up the case of these of the 390 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: Trump subpoena from the Manhattan d A for his tax records. 391 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's going to give us some indication 392 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: if when they decide about the separation of powers and 393 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: I and we might be put back on course perhaps 394 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: or not back on course, but just headed in the 395 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: right direction again about separation of powers. Yeah, and it's 396 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: in the Supreme Court again where Richard Nixon really met 397 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: his end and and found that he could no longer 398 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: hold the ground that he was trying to hold the differences. 399 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: We have a very different Supreme Court now than we 400 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: had in that time. I mean, we already have concerns 401 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: about the legitimacy of the court when we look at, 402 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: for example, Justice Kennedy cutting a deal with Donald Trump 403 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: to have Brett Kavanaugh put on the shortlist for a 404 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, When we look at the decisions that Kavanaugh 405 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: has made and the things he's hinted at at the 406 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: dismantling the administrative state, at the power of the exact 407 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: you have almost above and beyond the legislative. We have 408 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: to wonder what will happen if one of these decisions 409 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: comes down that says that's fine, the president can just 410 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: deny subpoenas entirely, and and that the legislative has no 411 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: legal authority to hold the president accountable at all. Where 412 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: do we go from there? And what does that mean 413 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: the next time a Democrat is in office and has 414 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: UH an investigation against them. The difference with Obama, of course, 415 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: with Fast and the Furious, is that for all they're complaining, 416 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: Obama eventually gave those documents up. They never claimed a 417 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,959 Speaker 1: blanket immunity that that is happening now this is unprecedented. 418 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: It is true. The blanket immunity claims are unprecedented, and 419 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: it will be up to the Supreme Court. We'll we'll 420 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: see what happens if they even take the case. Coming 421 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: up on Sound Up, we're gonna be talking about some 422 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: new polls that came out. It's about Super Tuesday and 423 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: the state of California, which has heavy delegate counts. And 424 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: remember that you can download the Bloomberg Sound On podcast 425 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: on iTunes at Bloomberg dot com or by downloading the 426 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business app. I'm June Grasso. When you're listening to 427 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: Bloomberg one. This is Bloomberg Sound On with Kevin Surley 428 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg and one oh five point h D two. 429 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: I'm June Grasso sitting in for Kevin, sir. Really, it's 430 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: called Super Tuesday for a reason. Sixteen states vote on 431 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: March third, and two of those states, California and Texas, 432 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 1: a lot the highest number of delegates to the Democratic candidates. 433 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: A new pole from CNN and SSRs shows Democratic presidential 434 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: candidates Joe Biden, Bernie Sanders, and Elizabeth Warren are running 435 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: neck and neck for the top spot in California. I've 436 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: been talking to Maddie Doubler, seeing your fellow at the 437 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 1: National Taxpayers Union, and Max Burns, Democratic strategists. So Max, 438 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: the poll found Biden with supporting California, Yeah, followed by 439 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: Sanders and Warren with Pete Buddha Judge was fourth in nine, 440 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: and all the others were polling in single digits. Is 441 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: it too soon to worry about California? I think so, 442 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: as evidenced by the fact that just last Thursday we 443 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: had a Berkeley California poll that had Warren at twenty 444 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: two and Sanders at twenty four and Biden only at 445 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen. And one of the worries with all 446 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: of this is we've really turned this primary into the 447 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: stock market, where we evaluate every single one or two 448 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: digit shift in candidates and try and figure out why 449 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: that happened. It would be the equivalent of writing a 450 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: news story every time Amazon stock loses a dollar or 451 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,479 Speaker 1: gains a dollar. And I worry that we're focusing so 452 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: much on the noise of the statistics that when when 453 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: is the last time we've had a conversation about an 454 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: actual policy on the trail? When has there been substantive 455 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: coverage of what people Boodha Judge's plan for medicare for 456 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: all who wanted, is what Elizabeth Warren's plan is for education? Instead, 457 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: we're asking these candidates what do you think about your 458 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: poll numbers? And there's only so many answers you can 459 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: give to that before you're just repeating yourself. Maddie, is 460 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: there is there a way? Is there a place for 461 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: poll numbers? And have we placed too much emphasis on them? Well, 462 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 1: you know, Max is describing I think the presidential race 463 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: of all of our dreams, those of us who care 464 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: about policy. That would be wonderful if these guys had 465 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: to explain day in and day out, you know what 466 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: they wanted uh to see for the vision of healthcare 467 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: or or economics for this country. Um. But you know, 468 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: when it comes to the importance of polling, yes, polling 469 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: is kind of important, but when we like what we 470 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: saw in sixteen is that the polls won't always get 471 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 1: it right. So I think a better question to be 472 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: asking is, you know, how much do these polls even 473 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: can they be trusted at this stage in the game. Now, 474 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: the interesting thing about Super Tuesdays that it really does 475 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: have an outsized impact this year compared to years past 476 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: having California in Texas which have a huge number of 477 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: delegates available on Super Tuesday, and I think some like 478 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: three thousand delegates are being allotted on that one day alone. 479 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: So I think the question becomes less about polling and 480 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: more about what is your strategy to maximize your impact 481 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: when you only have that one day to show uh, 482 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: to show your support. Now, that could work in favor 483 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: of someone potentially like you know, I don't know, maybe 484 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: a peat Buddha judge who the question is if he 485 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: does well in Iowa but doesn't look like he's going 486 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: to get an attraction in South Carolina. Is the fact 487 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: that everything is happening in one day benefits someone like 488 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: him and handicaps someone who has more expansive reach amongst 489 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: Democrat A Democrat primary voters, you know, I don't know. 490 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: I think that's really a more interesting question that people 491 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: who study this should be asking. So, Max, will the 492 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: polls start shifting after Iowa and New Hampshire or will 493 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: it take Iowa, New Hampshire South Carolina before we see 494 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: a meaningful shift, because right now it just seems to 495 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: be as if they're trading places between first second and third, yeah, 496 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: I think they will definitely be a shift after Iowa. 497 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: I think we saw it back in two thousand eight, 498 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: to make sort of a strained comparison, that Hillary Clinton 499 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: was up twenty two points on Barack Obama in South 500 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: Carolina until the Iowa caucus and when Obama proved his 501 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: viability and one that caucus, within a week, it had 502 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: switched from her being up twenty two to her being 503 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: down ten. And that's something she never recovered from. So 504 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: I think what voters are looking for and voters, I 505 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: think if you want to pull that shows your candidate 506 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: at a certain number, you can probably find one. But 507 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: we're lacking that one real world poll that counts, which 508 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: is election Day. And once we have that, you'll start 509 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: to see some of the minor candidates drop and it'll 510 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: really give a test of who's viable in the long run. 511 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: You know what. I also think, you hear all the 512 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: national polls, any candidate can beat any Democratic nominee right now, 513 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: could be President Trump. But shouldn't we be just looking 514 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: at the polls in those swings eates that made the 515 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: difference last time. I mean, that's where it really counts. 516 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,239 Speaker 1: The national numbers don't count because Hillary Clinton won by 517 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: millions of votes. Candidates are definitely focused on the swing 518 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: states this time around. I mean, you're gonna get a 519 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: lot more love to Pennsylvania and Michigan than you had 520 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 1: in and the numbers are are trending the right way. 521 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: President Trump had a rally yesterday in Pennsylvania, where he's at, 522 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: which is a dangerous place for an incumbent president to be, 523 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: and he only won that by about thirty votes. And 524 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: we see that the messaging on these campaigns is focusing 525 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: really heavily on manufacturing going into recession, on Trump's trade 526 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: war for farmers, on the way the tariffs are raising 527 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: prices for consumers. That's become real kitchen table issues, and 528 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: I think that's supplanted in some ways over the last 529 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: few weeks these discussions on Medicare for all. And this 530 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: is where the policy will matter, because it's where the 531 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: rubber hits the road. If you look at Wisconsin and Michigan, Pennsylvania, 532 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: there is an expectation that they will not fair as 533 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: well as the national economy in because they are so 534 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: sensitive to the arenas in which Trump has taken a 535 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: un orthodox approach. I'm talking about the trade wars. Of 536 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: course when it comes to US in China, how that 537 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: is resolved maybe really the issue that dictates how the 538 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: next year goes and whether or not the Trump campaign 539 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: is able to repeat its its victories in those states. 540 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: And it will be interesting, I think if the policy 541 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: that matters the most is trade, because I think that 542 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: has been a struggle for Democrats to articulate for many, 543 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: many years. I mean, this notion that Democrats are anti 544 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: NAFTA is somewhat new. But now you have a speaker 545 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: Pelosi and Donald Trump, who again has been accused of 546 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: many things, but one of them is being this populist 547 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: that has grown Republican free trade orthodoxy out the window, 548 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: vying for credit on the ones who got the new 549 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: U S m c A done. I mean that to 550 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: me is a fantastic new realignment. And how both democ 551 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: and Republicans have been talking about trades. So to me, 552 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: that's the most interesting question on policy moving into next year. 553 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: One is how we find resolution on some of these 554 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: tensions that are unequivocally creating drag in the domestic economy. 555 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: But secondly, how politicians then maneuver there. I mean, it's 556 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: going to be very difficult for Democrats to go into 557 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: some of these states if there is a rebound on 558 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: a trade deal and argue that things aren't going well 559 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: for voters there, because I think that voters who are 560 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: already either inclined to be loyal to the president or 561 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: UH feel that their circumstances have improved, will likely not 562 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: be responsive to that argument. Coming up, we're gonna be 563 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: talking turning to the Fed, which left interest rates unchanged 564 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: and signal it's going to keep them on a hold through. 565 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: That's coming up on sound on. I'm June Grasso. You're 566 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg's Sound On with Kevin 567 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: Surley on Bloomberg and one all five points seven f 568 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: M HD two. I'm Jim Grassi sitting in for Kevin Crelli. 569 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: The Federal Reserve decided not to raise interest rates after 570 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: three earlier cuts. Shared your Ome Powells of the U. S. 571 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: Economy is in a good place and monetary policy is 572 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: in a good place. He strongly suggested rates won't move 573 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: anytime soon. In order to move rates up, I would 574 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: want to see inflation that's persistent, uh, and that's a 575 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: significant a significant move up in inflation that's also persistent 576 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: before raising rates to address UH inflation concerns. That's my view. 577 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: Democratic strategist Max Burns is our New York studio and 578 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: Maddie Doppler, senior fellow of the National Taxpayers Union, is 579 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: in our DC studio. So Maddie, this is your Bailly Wick. 580 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: I love FED Day. I love it. Well, many people 581 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg love FED Day. And now we are a 582 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: strange brand of folk. Um. So the interesting thing, actually, 583 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: probably the most noteworthy thing was that sound bite that 584 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: you played from the chairman. They're going into the meeting today. 585 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: The expectation was that the FED would not budge on rates, 586 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: and that's exactly the outcome that we got. Now, this 587 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: is the last FED meeting for the month, for the year, 588 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: for the decade, so there was a lot of conversation 589 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 1: about like, well, what's the FED going to tell us 590 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: about the next year, in the next several years. Well, 591 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: that one question about inflation, I think was the big one. 592 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: We know that the FED wants to hit its target 593 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: of two percent. Inflation has consistently lagged that, but the 594 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: question was what is the FED going to do about it? Right? 595 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: Is it just gonna sit back and wait and see 596 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: if the inflation never takes off. UM. And you know, 597 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: the thing that we've watched over the last two years 598 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: has been what the FED will do on rates UH 599 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: and US trying to trade policy. Those have been the 600 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: two major things that can move UH the economy and 601 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: can move the stock market I have. I mean, the 602 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: hyper sensitivity is almost unparalleled. If you remember last December 603 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: where we had that huge stock market dive, but it 604 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,479 Speaker 1: was a result of the FED saying, hey, I think 605 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna go forward rate hikes. So to have just 606 00:32:58,240 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: one year passed and the FED saying we're in a 607 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: good spot, we don't need to move the rates in 608 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: any direction. UH. Some took that as a questioning whether 609 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: or not the FED head moved to aggressive too aggressively 610 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: to begin with. Now the chairman answered a question on 611 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: that point and essentially said, no, we really think we 612 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: made the right call here, and because the inflation target lags, 613 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: because we see so many other things that indicate strengthen 614 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: the economy, we feel we're in a good spot. So 615 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,959 Speaker 1: now the question is what happens next year. Right. We've 616 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,239 Speaker 1: talked a lot about how it's a presidential year. We 617 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: know that again this president, who is unorthodox in many ways. 618 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: One of those is his interactions with the FED and 619 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: his consistent haranguing of the FED and how he wants 620 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve to cut interest rates. You know, that 621 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: has all but been taken off the table by this 622 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: press conference today. But at the same time, the chairman 623 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: essentially said, we see the economy moving along next year 624 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: um and pretty strong stroke. So that's good news for 625 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: the president. So it'll be interesting to see how in 626 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: if the White House reacts to the herman's comments today, 627 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: because essentially what it said was that it's a good 628 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: it's a good outlook for the president running for reelection. 629 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: That's probably the most surprising thing about the FED today 630 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 1: is that Donald Trump did not tweet about your own Powell. 631 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: So we've got big primetime TV coming out. I think 632 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: it's probably the President's Twitter account will be focused. But 633 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: but I have to say that, you know, listen to 634 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 1: read a political article that said the FED has actually 635 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: lifted Trump's prospects because of what it's done for the economy. 636 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: Despite the fact that President Trump does not seem to 637 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: be uh in favor of his FED chair anymore. Max, 638 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: and I think this raises really interesting questions to me 639 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: on a larger scale that I think people like David 640 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: grayber and Bernie Sanders team have talked about, which is, 641 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: we're starting to see classical economics of Adam Smith that 642 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 1: has gone on for so long suddenly start to struggle 643 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: with a world of automation and interconnectedness that we have now. 644 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: For example, these the idea of inflation fighting as the 645 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: primary purpose of the central banks. I mean, we we 646 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: see that falling employment no longer drives up wages, that 647 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: we that Europe is printing money drastically to try and 648 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: draw inflation up, and things are actually moving the other direction. 649 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: But the the actual policy approaches that we've taken have 650 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: not really taken into account how how they don't seem 651 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: to work. And if there's any other science where we 652 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: just keep doing the same things even after they've proven 653 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: not only not predictive but counterproductive, economics may stand on 654 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: its own in that respect. So I don't share another 655 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: day another day, we run out of time. Maddie and Max, 656 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: do you make a great team even sound great together? 657 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: Thank you both. That's Maddie Duppler, Senior fellow at the 658 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: National Taxpayers Union in Max Burns, Democratic strategist, will have 659 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: you back to talk of up is again coming up. 660 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: Just remember to download the Bloomberg Sound On podcast on iTunes, 661 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com, or by downloading the Bloomberg Business App. 662 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Radio dot com, I 663 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, and Spotify. I'm June Grosso sitting in for 664 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: Kevin Cirelli and you're listening to Bloomberg