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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. Oh my goodness. It is Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: March eighteenth, and yes we have a stack night of headlines.

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Speaker 2: An anesthesiologist in Hawaii now he stands trial for attempted

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Speaker 2: murder of his wife. I feel like we've heard this

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Speaker 2: story before, and guess what, we haven't. So it's a repeat,

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Speaker 2: same crime, different plays, different time. Also, new legal drama

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Speaker 2: in the Kipid trial. Remember he's on kind of a

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Speaker 2: waiting trial basically for the murder of Tupac.

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Speaker 3: Such a big story.

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Speaker 2: That trial was really supposed to get going two and

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Speaker 2: a half weeks ago or so, and it's now been pushed.

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Speaker 2: But we do have some new juicy details. There's also

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Speaker 2: a few new details potentially about Diddy. Also, we finally

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Speaker 2: have forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and host of the

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Speaker 2: hit podcast body Bags back with us. I missed him

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Speaker 2: last week, so I really did, And we've gotten so

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Speaker 2: many sirims and phone calls and messages regarding him.

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Speaker 3: So we're so glad he's here. That lady a little

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Speaker 3: Southern comfort. We could all use it, right.

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with the courtney, Armstrong and body

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Speaker 2: move in, and of course we have.

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Speaker 3: Taha back in the seat from a couple of nights away.

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Speaker 2: And of course Sam and Adam are waiting by the

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Speaker 2: phones for your call. Eight eight eight three one crime,

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Speaker 2: Happy post, Saint Patrick's Day.

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Speaker 4: Happy post.

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Speaker 3: I'm fired up today. I'm hired up today, fired up today.

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Speaker 3: I don't want you, guys, I am I'm here to

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Speaker 3: talk some ish, yes, about the Douggers. Let's do it,

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Speaker 3: let's do it, breaking new can we do it?

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Speaker 5: Now? Do it?

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Speaker 2: I'll bring it, I say we, I say we make

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Speaker 2: people wait, yes, no, bring it now do it now.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually dying to talk to you about it.

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Speaker 4: Did you guys hear it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, But Josh Dugger now arrested for assaulting a

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Speaker 3: minor another.

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Speaker 2: Years old, nine years old. So you guys remember the

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Speaker 2: show The Duggers. That was a show that was on TLC,

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Speaker 2: the cable channel. You know, the family that had many

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Speaker 2: many children.

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Speaker 3: And made a lot of money and a lot of

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Speaker 3: kids in county.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they had a family like no other. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: there are two now of their sons had really been

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Speaker 2: brought into the most horrible club of sexual assaulters.

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Speaker 3: Horrific. So yeah, Josh Douger was convicted in twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: of you know, I think he was convicted of viewing right,

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Speaker 3: and then it was later discovered that he was also

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Speaker 3: like you know, with the sisters, not he was being inappropriate.

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Speaker 3: And then now Joseph Dugger, he is accused and apparently

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Speaker 3: confessed to molesting a nine year old on summer vacation

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Wow, unbelievable, unbelievable in the same family and again, you know, allegedly,

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Speaker 2: but it is being reported that this is something he

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Speaker 2: has now since confessed to, and if in fact that's

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Speaker 2: the case, it's really troubling. It feels like a story

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Speaker 2: that we're talking about a lot these days too, which

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Speaker 2: you know, really was certainly not the intention when we

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of dug into the true crime Tonight

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Speaker 2: stories typically, But listen, it's important that we are talking

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Speaker 2: about it, so anybody want to share any details about

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Speaker 2: the duggers let us know, and then also court, you

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Speaker 2: had a story for us next, Yes, I absolutely do.

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Speaker 5: This goes back to the anesthesiologist you teased a little bit.

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Speaker 5: So that's in regards to the trial of a man

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Speaker 5: named doctor gerhart Ping and his trials underway. He's facing

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Speaker 5: second degree attempted murder charges. This he allegedly tried to

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Speaker 5: kill his wife during a hike last year. It was

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Speaker 5: about one year ago today, almos.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 5: And what the prosecutors are alleged is that this guy,

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Speaker 5: doctor Coning, attacked his wife, Ariel Coning. It was at

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Speaker 5: a Pali lookout in Hawaii after she refused to take

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Speaker 5: a selfie near a cliff edge. Now this edge was very,

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Speaker 5: very dangerous, really, it was known for being so and

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Speaker 5: she said no, I don't want to take the picture,

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Speaker 5: and he apparently flipped out, this guy, doctor Coning, And

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Speaker 5: when she said she didn't want to take the picture,

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Speaker 5: he told her he was enraged and said get back

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Speaker 5: over here.

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Speaker 3: I'm so f and sick of you. As she tried

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Speaker 3: to walk away. That's not normal on a romance vacation,

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Speaker 3: it is not. She tried to walk away.

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Speaker 5: And then this doctor on trial he allegedly yelled, hey,

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Speaker 5: come back here, pushed her into bushes, pursued her again

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Speaker 5: after she got away again, and then he attacked her

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Speaker 5: on the ground, hitting her about ten times with the

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Speaker 5: rock while grabbing the back of her hair, smashing it

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Speaker 5: into the ground.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, terrible. Didn't we cover this like a

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Speaker 3: like a long like when it first happened or something,

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Speaker 3: And didn't he have like syringes in his pocket or

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Speaker 3: was that a different one?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: So during so during the attack, so he's now tried

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Speaker 5: attempted allegedly to push his wife off a cliff she

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Speaker 5: wasn't biting. He then tried to attack her, and during

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Speaker 5: that attack he pulled out this doctor to syringes and

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Speaker 5: attempted to inject her.

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Speaker 4: This had to be.

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Speaker 3: Planned, then, right, I mean syringes and stuff around with them.

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Speaker 3: I mean, please, you know, I mean, but what the heck?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and body, you're right, we did cover this when

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Speaker 6: it was when it was first charged with it, So

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Speaker 6: that's right when we did it. So now that the

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Speaker 6: trial is underway, we're certainly I'm.

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Speaker 3: Glad that we're swapping back to it. I completely forgot

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Speaker 3: all about it. Yeah, I like the story of an anesthesiologist.

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Speaker 2: Not that all anesthesiologists do this obviously, but we've kept

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Speaker 2: quite a few of them this year.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, dangerous a lot of the medical field which is surprised.

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Speaker 6: Like we've talked about yourself identist.

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Speaker 3: It's such a Nastysiologists when fascinating to me because they

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Speaker 3: really put you in like this, that state almost right,

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Speaker 3: like you're on Like, I mean they I think they're

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Speaker 3: out of all the surgeons. I think they make kind

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Speaker 3: of the most money.

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Speaker 2: That's what I've heard for a good reason. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's such a specialized thing. I remember the last time

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Speaker 2: I went under. Yeah, you look at them in the eye.

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Speaker 3: Like please, please come back alive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're so skilled and educated, and you know they

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Speaker 2: do this because they want to help people.

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Speaker 3: So this is so against code. Did we ever find

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Speaker 3: out what was in the syringes Courtney.

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Speaker 5: No, I wonder if I'm out at trial, But it's

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Speaker 5: what's being reported is just unknown substances.

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Speaker 3: Interesting. Luckily for Ariel, the.

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Speaker 5: Wife who is being attacked, if we can even use

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Speaker 5: that word, two women heard her screaming for help, and

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Speaker 5: they ran toward the scene and later told police that

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Speaker 5: they saw her. They saw this attack, and they also

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Speaker 5: saw the defendant Gearhart pning on top of her, striking

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Speaker 5: her head, corroborating her account entirely. And the defendant was

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Speaker 5: arrested pretty instantaneously. There was a brief foot pursuit and

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Speaker 5: he was caught.

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Speaker 3: On this winding highway.

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Speaker 5: If any of you guys have been to Hawaii, there's

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Speaker 5: some real not yet beautiful but treacherous.

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Speaker 3: On the bucket blist like Chernobyl for you buddy.

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Speaker 4: To Hawaii. That's it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, one of these, I mean, no question.

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Speaker 2: Wow, did you guys also hear about the Diddy thing?

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Speaker 2: There's a little bit of an update potentially there. I

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Speaker 2: know we're jumping around, but at least according to fifty

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Speaker 2: Cent fifty Cent, who obviously was the executive producer of

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Speaker 2: the recent Reckoning documentary that's out now on Netflix, he

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Speaker 2: has come out on social media and I don't think

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Speaker 2: he would do this if this wasn't being, you know,

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Speaker 2: legally quadrupled checked. But apparently there's a guy named Brett

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Speaker 2: Taylor and he owns a place called Cowboys and Angels

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Speaker 2: that's an escort service allegedly, and he was questioned today

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Speaker 2: by the state by the prosecution and allegedly did. He's

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Speaker 2: kind of being roped into a case where this gentleman

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Speaker 2: alleges that Didty had hired thirty escorts, male escorts, and

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Speaker 2: they were for him and not for his partners, as

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Speaker 2: reported at court when he was standing trial for racketeer charges,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. As we know, he didn't. He was found

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Speaker 2: not guilty on the racketeering charges. He was brought up

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Speaker 2: on specific charges. He's serving his fifty month sentence in

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Speaker 2: a federal prison for two counts of prostitution, to engage

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Speaker 2: with prostitutes and crossing over borders. And if this is true,

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Speaker 2: then thirty male escorts, that's a lot. That's a lot

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Speaker 2: of humans, and that would probably up the ante potentially.

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Speaker 2: So the defense attorney for Brett Taylor, who owns this escort,

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Speaker 2: says that they should anticipate some new charges coming down

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Speaker 2: the pipeline.

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Speaker 3: I'm confused, can you help me? Okay, yes, this he

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Speaker 3: owns an escort service, right, and he's saying that Diddy

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Speaker 3: hired his escort service and hired thirty males for Diddy personally.

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Speaker 2: Personally, So which was the crime in that exactly so?

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Speaker 2: But similarly to someone is it's kind of considered the

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Speaker 2: the same thing that he's doing charges on now, where

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Speaker 2: he was soliciting a prostitute and taking them over state lines.

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Speaker 2: This person's being brought in, I think for something separate,

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Speaker 2: and somehow this is getting lumped into all things Diddy.

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Speaker 6: But doesn't it also contradict what he said in during

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Speaker 6: the past court cases where it was hired. They were

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Speaker 6: hired for other parties that were involved, not just exactly

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Speaker 6: it was.

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Speaker 2: For a third party and he was, you know, doing

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Speaker 2: this for his girlfriend or you know, this is going

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Speaker 2: now dating back to twenty fourteen according to his testimony

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Speaker 2: that it was in fact for a third person. And

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Speaker 2: I guess this technicality is worth the prosecution to do

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Speaker 2: some interviews.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's perjury, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: We got to ask our you know, Yeah, this is.

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Speaker 6: A good one for Jarrett to dig into, So that

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Speaker 6: one I would love to dig into a lot more.

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Speaker 4: But there was something I wanted to ask you about. Steph.

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Speaker 6: You brought to our attention earlier. There's a missing person

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Speaker 6: missing and yes that you brought to our attention.

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Speaker 4: What was going on with that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's getting some national attention right now. There's a

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Speaker 2: boy or a young man named Jimmy. His real name

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Speaker 2: is Jimmy James Gracie, and he goes by Jimmy, and

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Speaker 2: he is a college student in Alabama and was with

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Speaker 2: friends in visiting some other friends who were studying abroad

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Speaker 2: in Barcelona, and they went out to a night club

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Speaker 2: or some sort of a bar situation in Barcelona. The

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Speaker 2: drinking age there is eighteen years old, and they went

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Speaker 2: in as friends, and somewhere along the line at this

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Speaker 2: said nightclub, they all got kind of separated, and when

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Speaker 2: the night club ended or the party ended, it kind

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Speaker 2: of dripped out to the beach, and that's allegedly when

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Speaker 2: he was last seen, perhaps talking to a girl with

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Speaker 2: brown hair. And when he got you know, his roommate

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Speaker 2: got back to his room, Jimmy wasn't there and started

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Speaker 2: to panic and they couldn't find him.

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Speaker 3: And they were with a very large group.

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Speaker 2: But you know how sometimes a very large group is

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Speaker 2: almost so large that you can actually get sort of

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Speaker 2: lost in a really big crowd. So they were able

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Speaker 2: to identify his phone using some sort of an app

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Speaker 2: or whatnot, and they tracked his phone to the local

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Speaker 2: police station. In Barcelona who had his phone and allegedly

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Speaker 2: his wallet had been found in the ocean and his

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Speaker 2: family is losing their mind. Will post there his picture

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Speaker 2: on the website as well, but it's a friend of

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Speaker 2: a friend that had reached out to share this information

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Speaker 2: to help get the word out. And now I'm seeing

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Speaker 2: it pretty much everywhere. It's on all the major news

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Speaker 2: channels right now. Every parent's worst nightmare dad is flying

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Speaker 2: their real time.

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Speaker 3: It kind of reminds me of Riley Strain in Natalie Holloway.

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Speaker 3: Both of those kind of cases kind of combined. Riley

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Speaker 3: Strain right, similar situation. He went to Nashville for like

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Speaker 3: with a bunch of his sorority brothers. He got really

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Speaker 3: you know, like all kids do, right sure in Nashville

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Speaker 3: and walking up and down and he got separated or

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Speaker 3: I think he got removed from one of the bars

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Speaker 3: because he was a little intoxicated. And there's CCTV footage

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Speaker 3: of him walking around Nashville and he's kind of stumbling

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Speaker 3: and he ended up being found a couple weeks later

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Speaker 3: in the Cumberland River. But similar situation. While they were

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Speaker 3: looking for him, Stephanie, they found his wallet or his

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Speaker 3: debit card, things like that. But I wanted to ask

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Speaker 3: you about the case in Spain. You said that the

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Speaker 3: phone was found at the police station. Do you know

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Speaker 3: why the police had his phone?

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Speaker 2: They must have had it, just that somebody turned it

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Speaker 2: in or they found it. There's very few details. All

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Speaker 2: we have now is that he was last seen on

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Speaker 2: March seventeenth and twenty twenty five at three am at

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Speaker 2: a place called Choko, which is a very popular, like

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Speaker 2: I say, club, maybe it's a bar, some version of that.

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Speaker 2: He's wearing a white T shirt when he was last seen,

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Speaker 2: dark pants, a gold chain and a Ryanstone cross. And

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Speaker 2: he has brown hair, he's tall, he's handsome. Lobby yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: so we'll put his picture up there.

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Speaker 3: But what a nightmare. What a nightmare for the kids too.

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Speaker 2: So a dear girlfriend, especially so far has a mom

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Speaker 2: friend whose child was a part of this traveling team.

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Speaker 3: And we're group, I should say.

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Speaker 2: And now these kids that were with their bud on

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Speaker 2: this like perfect getaway, what do they do? They're all looking,

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Speaker 2: they're handing out flyers, they're losing their minds, they're all

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Speaker 2: worn out. So do you come back to the States.

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Speaker 2: I know his father is flying out there right now,

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Speaker 2: and our prayers are with them.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I just wanted to add that the Gracie

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Speaker 5: family made a statement. Yeah, and that statement is Jimmy

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Speaker 5: is a kind, responsible and devoted son and brother. It

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Speaker 5: is completely out of character for him not to check

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Speaker 5: in with family and friends. We are working closely with

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Speaker 5: local authorities and are incredibly grateful for the support we've received.

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Speaker 5: And we asked that you keep Jimmy and your thoughts

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Speaker 5: as we continue to do everything we can to bring

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Speaker 5: him home safely.

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Speaker 3: I mean, imagine you're so far away from home, Like

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Speaker 3: I was saying, it kind of reminds me a little

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Speaker 3: bit of Natalie Halloween that happened in Naruba and her family.

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Speaker 3: I think they lived in Louisiana. It was one of

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Speaker 3: the southern states. I think she just vanished. She vanished.

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Speaker 3: It just got to be so like, what do you

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Speaker 3: do as a parent, Like, of course, that's the worst nightmare.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, as a parent, your biggest dream

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Speaker 2: is to be able to send your son and Barcelona

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Speaker 2: to be with his college buds, to have this great experience.

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Speaker 2: So for anyone who's missing their loved ones, yeah, please

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Speaker 2: like whatever we can do to continue to get words

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Speaker 2: out and get some eyes on the situation.

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Speaker 3: Let's go Spain. Well the man tied to TUPACX murderer

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Speaker 3: scrambling for a new lawyer. We're going to break it down.

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Speaker 3: Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong, Body move in and.

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Speaker 3: The whole crew.

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Speaker 2: Because guess what we have Joseph Scott Morgan coming up

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Speaker 2: real soon, host of the hit podcast body Bags. By

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Speaker 2: the way, it's so good, so if you haven't heard it,

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Speaker 2: please do. And by the way, thank you for the talkbacks.

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Speaker 2: We have one coming in right now.

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Speaker 7: Hey, this is Tamra from New Jersey. I just wanted

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Speaker 7: to thank Courtney for turning me on to Cole Cannon.

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Speaker 7: I made it last night with my corn beef and

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Speaker 7: it was delicious. My husband can't stop raving about it.

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Speaker 7: He actually took some leftovers for lunch today and so

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Speaker 7: did I.

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Speaker 4: So thanks again.

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Speaker 7: Hope you guys had a great Saint Patrick's Day, and

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Speaker 7: thanks for all you do. I really appreciate hearing all

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Speaker 7: your news and you guys are just awesome. Have a

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Speaker 7: great day, and thanks again.

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Speaker 8: Bye oh oh my goodness.

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Speaker 2: The whole world is enjoying Courtney's food. By the way,

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Speaker 2: I really love it too. I didn't make it, but

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Speaker 2: I love your cooking. So we got to do a segment,

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Speaker 2: maybe a regular cooking with court situation. I didn't put

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Speaker 2: a gavel. We'll go like, use the gavel sound and

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Speaker 2: Courtney will tell us.

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Speaker 3: What to cook.

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Speaker 4: Tell everyone to picture.

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Speaker 9: She said that photo, and look how delicious it was.

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Speaker 4: She showed us the corn beep you made and everything

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Speaker 4: it was. It looked amazing.

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Speaker 3: Let me tell you guys about Courtney. So yesterday when

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Speaker 3: we were on the show, we were talking, well in

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Speaker 3: between commercials, I got a little emotional, all right, because

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Speaker 3: it's Saint Patrick's Day. Was a big thing in my family.

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Speaker 3: I lost my mom recently. I was like, didn't make

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Speaker 3: corn beef and cabbage. I was feeling little despondent. So

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Speaker 3: guess what. Guess what this woman does. She's like, check

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Speaker 3: your porch. I'm like, what, I go out there and

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Speaker 3: there's corn beef. She sent me some corn beef. Can

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Speaker 3: you believe created that so kind?

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Speaker 5: I'm like, literally going to start crying right now, all

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Speaker 5: of us, at every single one of us, say you

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Speaker 5: that corn beef.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Wow, Courtney was very kind of you, and she's

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Speaker 3: just a very kind person. And I'm so glad you

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Speaker 3: called and gave her the utmost compliment that you liked

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Speaker 3: her cooking.

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Speaker 4: That's great.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you like would love and she means it.

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Speaker 2: And your stuff is very simple too, and it tastes

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Speaker 2: very complicated, but you do have a way of simplifying.

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Speaker 2: So so good, court in body, you are so loved.

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Speaker 2: Oh I feel it, I can feel it. So I've

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Speaker 2: got some news about kif D.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: No, I really was looking forward to this trial. It

351
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Speaker 3: was supposed to begin in August, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: it's happening in Vegas. Why don't I cover this? Yes

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Speaker 3: on the scene, body on the scene. Right. Well, so

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Speaker 3: it's going to be rich scheduled, and I'm gonna tell

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Speaker 3: you why. So kaf D he's got a secure new

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Speaker 3: legal representation, his return his attorney withdrew over a retainer dispute,

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Speaker 3: and that makes it really unlikely that his August twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty sixth trial and the murder of Tupac Shakur will

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Speaker 3: proceed as scheduled. Kaffy D is accused of orchestrating this

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety six dry by shooting you know that killed

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Speaker 3: Tupac near the Las Vegas Strip and again Tupaca. You

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Speaker 3: guys dont know who Tupac was. I don't know what

363
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:03,760
Speaker 3: to tell you, but he was one of hip hop's

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00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 3: most you know, famous poets, and this remains one of

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Speaker 3: hip hop's most notorious unsolved crimes. Prosecutors are relying part

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Speaker 3: on Keevd's own public statements that he made on like

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Speaker 3: YouTube channels, in the book that he wrote. He wrote, Look,

368
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Speaker 3: he wrote a book, right, claiming his involvement, right, he's

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Speaker 3: kind of like bragging, But his defense is insisting that

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Speaker 3: those admissions are just exaggerated, they're unreliable or should not

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Speaker 3: be taking advice value. Kind of like what they're saying

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Speaker 3: is that this is like street.

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Speaker 2: Talk, right, and he's exaggerating or trying to get notoriety

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Speaker 2: by claiming this kill.

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Speaker 3: Job, which I don't know.

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Speaker 2: He gives him like street cred correct, right, street you

377
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Speaker 2: call him kfy D. I've been calling him keithys.

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00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 3: I get made fun of this all the time. You're

379
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 3: saying it correctly. I've said it wrong for twenty years.

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00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 3: You say it adorable, I imagining that I've been saying.

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00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,080
Speaker 3: I always say Kathy. I know, I've been trying to

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Speaker 3: say kify and I just never can. It's like one

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Speaker 3: of those old muscle memory things.

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Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: Anyhow? And I live here in Vegas, I should know better,

386
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Speaker 3: but I'm just glad that I'm just glad that I haven't. No,

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Speaker 3: you're right, higher time.

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Speaker 2: This is one of those cases that we've really have

389
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Speaker 2: been really curious about. And of course there have been

390
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Speaker 2: some allegations, even in the documentary that we were just

391
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Speaker 2: talking about the reckoning on Netflix regarding Diddy, where there

392
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 2: was some very squarely said allegations that Didty himself was

393
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Speaker 2: part of the potential hit allegedly allegedly allegedly with keify

394
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Speaker 2: d to put this hit out and was a.

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Speaker 3: Party and money. I haven't exchanged hands Tupac's death.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The only one who didn't get the money allegedly was

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Speaker 3: I think him.

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Speaker 5: Oh right, and Orlando, which is Mornetco also now deceased.

400
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,440
Speaker 5: But Stephanie, you say allegedly, and you're correct to because

401
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 5: it hasn't been proved out, but that documentary which we

402
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 5: all know that Fitty Scent did that you referred to earlier,

403
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Speaker 5: so we all know it's legally vetted top to bottom.

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00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 5: And then some it felt like more than allegations to me.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there were you know, what were alleged to

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Speaker 5: be absolute receipts handwritten from the time of Ditty's involvement,

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Speaker 5: and yeah, I mean we're twenty years.

408
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 3: Deep into this case. Whenever is it going to go?

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Speaker 2: Well, listens, it felt like this was one of those

410
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 2: cases that would never be solved until Keithy d or

411
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Speaker 2: Keffe d started writing his little heart out and getting

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Speaker 2: a lot of street cred. He is the one that

413
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: put the spotlight squarely on himself. He wrote this, he

414
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 2: wrote this book. He was doing a ton of press

415
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 2: about it, essentially putting him right there. And now he's like, oof, Yeah,

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00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 2: I'm sure your story doesn't feel as believable when you're

417
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Speaker 2: looking at bars and looking at prison for the rest

418
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 2: of your life. That notoriety probably isn't so fun. It's

419
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Speaker 2: probably not that fun behind bars either. Tupapa is very,

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Speaker 2: so loved and it's a very divisive, very yeah, there's

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Speaker 2: there here in Las Vegas where it happened. There's a

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00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 2: permanent shrine to Tupac. But so on March tenth, kif

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Speaker 2: D's I'm gonna say it right, KIFFI D's a defense attorney.

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Speaker 2: His name is Robert Draskovic, and he's no longer his

425
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Speaker 2: defense attorney. He drew from the case, but he formally

426
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 2: withdrew from the case, and he told the court this

427
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 2: is a fairly involved case. There's been an issue concerning

428
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Speaker 2: the terms of a retainer, and we need to bring

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Speaker 2: in investigators and experts, basically saying, like, listen, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of evidence that we have to go through. Sure,

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00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 2: I'm withdrawing because apparently the retainer he can't afford it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but it's going to delay the trial

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00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: because there's so much evidence and a new lawyer is

434
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,239
Speaker 2: going to have to get caught up to speed on everything. Right,

435
00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 2: And here's the issue.

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Speaker 3: He Kifis had had multiple attorneys throughout the time that

437
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: he's been arrested. He when he first got arrested, he

438
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 3: had a public defender right then, and that was in

439
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three. Okay, then he had a prior attorney.

440
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 3: He got another attorney mid to twenty twenty five and

441
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 3: then he hired this new guy defense attorney, Robert Draskovich.

442
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 3: So this is like his third now going to be

443
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 3: his fourth attorney on this and it's probably going to

444
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 3: have to be a public defender at this point, which

445
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 3: in Clark County here in Las Vegas where I live,

446
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 3: they're very good. But it's going to delay the trial

447
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 3: because his new attorney's going to have to get up

448
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 3: to speed on everything. And then especially when cases are

449
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 3: this old, I mean, you don't it's hard. It's hard

450
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 3: to go through. There's not everybody looking into it. You know,

451
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 3: you've got all the it's just paperwork that.

452
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 4: You have to go through.

453
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 2: Not to mention high profile people with very deep pockets

454
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 2: and interd too this case. Yeah, and it's a very

455
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 2: dangerous topic, you know, even and I mean to this day,

456
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: this is a dangerous topic. It's a very divided topic.

457
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: Remember Sugar Knight. You'll remember Suge Knight was he was

458
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: injured in that too, injured in this car. He was

459
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 2: driving in the vehicle with Tupac in Vegas on the

460
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 2: strip when Tupac was killed. Suge Knight knows who pulled

461
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 2: the trigger, Suge Knight knows who was in the car,

462
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: and Suge Knight's serving time behind bars. Remember he also

463
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 2: ran death records. If you're not familiar, they were longtime rivals.

464
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 3: Wasn't there something given enough Ice, there was something with

465
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 3: Vanilla Ice and Suge Knight. Wasn't there like didn't kind

466
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 3: of I don't recall, Yeah, something about they were at

467
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: this meeting and was it Vanilla Ice. I don't know

468
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 3: if somebody will now eighty eight thirty one crime give

469
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 3: us a club. Well, in nineteen ninety one pull them

470
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 3: over the balcony by his home, was that him?

471
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, Suge Knight intimidated Vanilla Ice back in ninety one

472
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 5: to sign over publishing rights to Ice Ice Baby, and

473
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 5: he used those royalties to fund death row records.

474
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 3: You're exactly correct. And while rumors persist that night hung.

475
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 5: Vanilla Ice over the balcony, he clarified mister Ice that

476
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 5: night actually threatened him during a hotel room meeting.

477
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 3: But well, yeah, it as long as assumed, it was

478
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 3: always said that at this meeting took place in a

479
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 3: hotel room and that he was intimidated. You know, both

480
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 3: just you know how men intimidate one another, but that

481
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 3: he picked up Vanilla Ice and then hung him from

482
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 3: the balcony by his ankles.

483
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's like a real intimidation. And again

484
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: we saw this in the Diddy Dot too. These deals

485
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 2: are getting made with you know, at gunpoint, you know,

486
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: for all intensive purposes. So the level of violence involved,

487
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 2: and yeah, I mean give over the rights, I suppose,

488
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: but certainly that does not seem very fair.

489
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 3: And Shood Knight currently serving time. He is not going

490
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 3: to say who did it. He will not snitch, so

491
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: keepd He was indicted. He was arrested in twenty twenty three,

492
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 3: in September, and he lived in Henderson, which is a suburb,

493
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 3: a suburb of Las Vegas. And it was like a

494
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 3: night time raid, all right, which is fairly unusual, right,

495
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: but not unheard of. There was a night time raid

496
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 3: and he was arrested obviously, he was indicted obviously, and

497
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 3: you know, he got this murder charge in connection with

498
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 3: Tupacs Chakor and he's remained in jail ever since. Well

499
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 3: since then, he's gotten into a jail fight, which he

500
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: was convicted of. So he's also serving time for that.

501
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 3: All right, and while he was in jail, Cash Jones,

502
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 3: he is an entertainment manager who also goes by the

503
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 3: name Whack one hundred. Well, Whack one hundred posted the

504
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 3: fifteen percent of kepd's bond, which was seven hundred and

505
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: fifty thousand dollars. All right, So this guy put up

506
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 3: one hundred and twelve thousand dollars to get KEPD out

507
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 3: of jail. But the judge was like, no, no, I'm

508
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 3: not letting him out even the Yeah, isn't that crazy?

509
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 3: So you know, we talked about this book too, write

510
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 3: this KVD book and whatnot, and he wrote. So he

511
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 3: wrote this book in twenty nineteen or it was released

512
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen, and he did all these interviews on

513
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 3: YouTube with all these like hip hop channels, and he

514
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 3: claimed he was sitting in the front passenger seat of

515
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 3: the car which Orlando Anderson, which was his nephew who

516
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 3: is now deceased, was driving before the although his attorneys

517
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 3: have argued the public should not believe these statements.

518
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 10: So what is it?

519
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 3: Do you want the street cred and not the punishment?

520
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

521
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: There's a you do the crime, you do the time,

522
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: and his nephew, not here to defend himself, was also here,

523
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 2: I say, assassinated.

524
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 3: You know, he was allegedly, allegedly allegedly he was killed.

525
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 2: So a lot of the narrators in this story are

526
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 2: not able to speak it for themselves, and the ones

527
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: that are are behind bars right.

528
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: Well, and Kefti. He also confessed to police. Correct.

529
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 5: There were recordings of that, but it wasn't I was.

530
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 5: I'm looking for the word and I couldn't find it.

531
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 3: It's not. He proffered, right, and that's been very controversial, right,

532
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 3: So I'm doing this for memory, so you have to

533
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 3: forgive me, Courtney. But he proffered to the LAPD, right,

534
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 3: and they gave him some kind of they gave it.

535
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: It was under the sense of some kind of immunity, right,

536
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 3: and they want to use that in court. But again,

537
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 3: this was under some guys of immunity, and they're they're

538
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 3: definitely fighting that. There was a big YouTube series about this.

539
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 3: I watched every single thing. Ye yeah, where it really was.

540
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 3: I watched it like five years ago, I don't remember.

541
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: And in case you don't know what a proffer is,

542
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: that's when you're giving testimony in another case in exchange

543
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: for immunity in what you're about to talk about in

544
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: said case.

545
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 3: Is that accurate?

546
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 4: I think so?

547
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a feel free to correct me. Three

548
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 3: one cram. But yeah, he did this profit with LPD.

549
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 3: And there's this really famous LAPD detective that's been on

550
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 3: this case from the jump. Yes, why LAPD. I'm not

551
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 3: sure why it's not Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department. I

552
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 3: will never understand. However, yeah, I will never understand. But

553
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 3: this former LAPD detective has been, you know, following this

554
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 3: case all the way through, and he he said that

555
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 3: Cafe D confessed to him in this profit.

556
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 7: Wow.

557
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, interesting.

558
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 2: Interesting, I know we're going to find a way safe

559
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: behind bars. That's a that's a tough one. They know,

560
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: a very controversial killing it is, and there does seem

561
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: to be such steeped division even still between those two

562
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: you know gangs.

563
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 3: Frankly, yeah, interesting. Yeah, I don't know what, but again

564
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 3: we don't know why it's going to happen.

565
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 11: Oh no, I was just saying you had everything right.

566
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 11: I'm looking up as we're going along, so that you're

567
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 11: about the profer.

568
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 4: So, okay, were spot on about all the details. So

569
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 4: from memory which is interested.

570
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 3: I it's been a hot minute, but I really wanted

571
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: to cover this live. And I'm very upset. I mean,

572
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: I know that's this Listen. It's not about me and

573
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 3: what I want. It's just upsetting. You know, this has

574
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 3: been put Listen. He's already gone through three lawyers. He

575
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: keeps going through lawyers. It's almost like a strategy at

576
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 3: this point, right, Like he knows there's so much to

577
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 3: this case that he's just not going to comply with

578
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 3: his with his attorneys at the very last minute, and

579
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 3: then it's going to get delayed again, pushed by you

580
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 3: know more right, And meanwhile he's sitting in Clark County Jail,

581
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 3: not doing hard time in prison. Right. I don't know,

582
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 3: I just at some point I start to feel like

583
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 3: it's a conspiracy and not like, you know, wanting to

584
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 3: move the case forward at all. You know, if he's innocent,

585
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 3: you would think that he would want to have his

586
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: day in court, finish his jail sentence for the jail

587
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 3: flight that he got into in twenty twenty four, and

588
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 3: get out and live his best life. But that's not

589
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 3: what's happening. He's not paying the retainer apparently, he's messing

590
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 3: around with his attorney Pies.

591
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 7: I don't know.

592
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: Well, it will be a while before it comes to pass.

593
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 5: We will be calling the trial, of course, and if

594
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 5: anything comes up in the meantime.

595
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 3: But forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan joins us.

596
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: Our very favorite forensic expert, Joseph Scott Morgan, pure Southern comfort,

597
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: as Courtney Armstrong just coined, so true. Also the host

598
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: of bodybags. So if you haven't listened, please do, Joseph.

599
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're here. We all need some of

600
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: this comfort. And we know that Kendrick Johnson is a

601
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: case that we talked about it briefly. Here is so

602
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: mind boggling, and we're really grateful that you're going to

603
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: unpack it with us because the forensics.

604
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 10: This one, Yes, And I'm glad to be here because

605
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 10: I first did dig this, y'all. I first covered Kendrick

606
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 10: Johnson with Vinnie Politan in Are you ready twenty thirteen

607
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 10: on a hl.

608
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 3: Ange when it happened, right, yeah, yeah, it.

609
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 10: Was striking at that moment time because none of us

610
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 10: had ever heard of anything like this, and I certainly

611
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 10: had never worked a case like this, So right, Yeah,

612
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 10: it really really got down into the marrow, right, So for.

613
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 3: Our viewers who aren't conversant in a case, right, and

614
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 3: we aren't either honestly, Like we know bits and pieces

615
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: and we aren't taking you know, here at true Crime tonight,

616
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 3: we're not taking a stand on either side of the fence.

617
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 3: We don't know all right, But what we do know

618
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: is Kendrick Johnson. He was a fifteen year old high

619
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: school student at Lowndes High School in Valdosta, Georgia, Okay,

620
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: And he was found dead inside a rolled up gym

621
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 3: matt like that was up against a wall, right, So

622
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: it's kind of like imagine a paper towel holder, right,

623
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 3: you know, or a paper towel role. I guess that's

624
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 3: probably the best way to see a paper towel roll.

625
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 3: In January of twenty thirteen, just as you said, Joseph,

626
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: you were, you know, talking with Philly Ponditan about this.

627
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 3: So local and state authorities initially ruled his death and

628
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 3: asked a mental case a positional itsphyxia. So what they're

629
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: saying is that he was in the mat and he's

630
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 3: suffocated because of the position he was in, and he

631
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 3: was tightly wound up in this mat, right, so he

632
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 3: basically suffocated, Is that right, Joseph? Is that the right?

633
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 10: Yeah, they're calling it a positional assixia, and that's because

634
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 10: he was inverted, So can you imagine. I'm glad you

635
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 10: mentioned paper towel role because that's something that somebody can

636
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 10: get their mind wrapped around.

637
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

638
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 10: I didn't come from a high school that had wrestling,

639
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 10: So I talked to my wife, who was pe teacher

640
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 10: for years and years. I was like, what's a wrestling

641
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 10: matt like? And she's like, they're very firm, very very rigid.

642
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 10: And the story came down to us, which you guys

643
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 10: might find this kind of fascinating. I went way back

644
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 10: when dinosaurs were on the earth and I was in cool.

645
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 10: We didn't have to pay for a gym locker, but

646
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 10: apparently this is a thing, so you have to literally

647
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 10: rent a gym locker, and kids don't necessarily have the money.

648
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 10: So what they would do is they would hide their

649
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:09,479
Speaker 10: sneakers in the gym mat and when they found found

650
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 10: the young man's body, it was just by chance because

651
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 10: it got tipped over. The map got tipped over, and

652
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 10: you can actually see there's a classic photo that's out there.

653
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 10: It's been out there for years and years, and you

654
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 10: can see Kendrick's bare feet, not bare feet, but sock feet,

655
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 10: you know, kind of poking out at the end.

656
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 5: I have to say, I'm sorry, I'm so I had

657
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 5: not been conversing in this case.

658
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 3: I had not seen this photo.

659
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 5: I just did.

660
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 4: And it is part and shocking in it.

661
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, it really is, and so positional of sixty of

662
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 10: the folks that don't know. It can come in many

663
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 10: different forms, and in this particular case, if you have

664
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 10: an inversion where you cannot you don't have the physical

665
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 10: strength to up end yourself or not that's kind of

666
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 10: a misnomer, but get out of this thing. So what

667
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 10: it would mean is you'd have to tip it over

668
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 10: and then kind of crawl, you know, crawl out of it.

669
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 10: But apparently, uh, that didn't happen. Now, one of the

670
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 10: things that had come out is that people believed that

671
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 10: potentially he had been beaten and hidden in this thing. Right,

672
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 10: what's really odd? Yeah, yeah, there were some there was

673
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 10: some some elements that were there.

674
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 3: Uh.

675
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 10: And one of the problems that kind of made this

676
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 10: a bit more complex is that there was a delay

677
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 10: in actually doing the autopsy. Autopsy was not done in Valdosta.

678
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 10: His remains were transported up north to make in Georgia,

679
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 10: which is where the GBI Central Central offices, and they

680
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 10: waited and from what understand, the body was not refrigerated

681
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 10: and so even though the state was trusted with doing this,

682
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 10: there was a real problem with that. And so you

683
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 10: have these these physiological changes. You could still appreciate hemorrhage,

684
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 10: but it convoluted this whole thing all the way around.

685
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 3: So what the official story is, Joseph, is that Kendrick,

686
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 3: like many other students, stored his sneakers, which were black

687
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,479
Speaker 3: and white Adidas sneakers in the role that Jim Matt

688
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 3: and that Kendrick was going to the gym and he's

689
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 3: seen walking to the gym in his orange and white Jordans. Okay, well,

690
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 3: the story is is that he you know, these Matt's

691
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 3: weigh one hundred and eighty five pounds, they're very you know,

692
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 3: they're very dense as you described, and they're they're very heavy.

693
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 3: So the story is is that Kendrick climbed, this is

694
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 3: the official story. He climbed the bleachers and was basically

695
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 3: reaching into the mat for his sneakers and that that's

696
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 3: how so he falls in the mat and he's struggling,

697
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 3: and in this struggle he kicks off his Jordans, which

698
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 3: are seen kind of like when you're looking at the

699
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 3: picture that Courtney's just you know, mentioned that she just saw.

700
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 3: You can see Kendrick's socked feet and then his Jordan's

701
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 3: right next to him because he was reaching for his Adidas.

702
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 3: That's the official story, but the family and a lot

703
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 3: of other people think that there was some there's some

704
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 3: history in this region, right, and people that's you know,

705
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 3: that know Kendrick and love Kendrick and whatnot are just

706
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 3: not convinced that that's what happened in this case, right.

707
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 3: They think there was some foul play, and because of

708
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 3: the mishandling of Kendrick's body, as Joseph mentioned, a lot

709
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 3: of these things can't be verified.

710
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 10: Or you know, yeah, they can't be verified. And there

711
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 10: was an autopsy that was performed by the state. And

712
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 10: here here's one of the problems that they ran into

713
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 10: when the funeral home that was handling Kendrick's remains for

714
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 10: them and they got his remains back and now a

715
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 10: standard that at an autopsy the death secutor. Organs will

716
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 10: be placed back into the trunk of the body, obviously,

717
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 10: and they're generally placed in a bag. Okay, trying to

718
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 10: keep this as respectable as possible possible. But there was

719
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 10: a second autopsy was done after a period of time,

720
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 10: and lo and behold, when the hired forensic pathologist or

721
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 10: pathologists went to do the exam, there were no organs

722
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 10: and the body had been stuck with newspapers. Newspaper, Yeah,

723
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,919
Speaker 10: and that happened at the hand of the funeral home.

724
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 10: And this is not uncommon. I've had bodies that were

725
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 10: stuffed with newspapers, saw dust, all kinds of things. And

726
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 10: so what happens is that the organs are actually incinerated.

727
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 10: But in a case like this, you can imagine that's

728
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 10: very troubling because you don't as a solicited practitioner, you

729
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 10: don't have the advantage of taking a look at those organs.

730
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 10: They're gone forever and ever, amen, And that's very problematic

731
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 10: in this particular case.

732
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 8: And so this is the.

733
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 10: Specter has always kind of swirled around this case for

734
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 10: years and years. First off, it's so odd and can

735
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 10: go back just for a second. There's a significant piece

736
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 10: here that people really look at. And if you get

737
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 10: you guys, get a chance, and just don't believe what

738
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,479
Speaker 10: I'm saying. Assume I'm lying. Go look it up for yourself. Okay,

739
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 10: there is a clip. There's a clip from the Gymnasium, okay,

740
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 10: which shows Kendrick in the gymnasium. And you guys remember

741
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 10: the old CCTV where it's it's not like smooth flowing,

742
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 10: it's almost like frame by frame. Okay, Well there's a

743
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 10: gap in that and one of the things that you

744
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 10: see is Kendrick entering frame from I guess I'm not

745
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 10: a theater guy from like stage left, Okay, on the

746
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 10: left side of the frame, he's stepping in and he's

747
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 10: walking normally, and then all of a sudden, he drops

748
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 10: into a sprinter stance. Now, this kid's an athlete. As

749
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 10: a matter of fact, if I remember correctly, at fifteen,

750
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 10: FSU was already looking at him.

751
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 8: To play football. Oh so a big football school.

752
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 10: Yeah, Lowndes County is a huge football school. And so

753
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 10: he goes into the sp sprinter stance and the next

754
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 10: frames he's vanished. Right there's he exists no more. So

755
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 10: some people have a pine that someone went in there

756
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 10: and you know, screwed around with the tape or the

757
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 10: recording or how it was how it was retained.

758
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 3: Right, there's two hundred and ninety hours of footage from

759
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 3: thirty five gym cameras, okay, that they had in this gym,

760
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 3: but there's no coverage of this mat area where Kendrick,

761
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 3: you know, where the authorities a pine. I guess that

762
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 3: he fell in this mat right, Yeah, And so some

763
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,919
Speaker 3: of the recordings appear to have gaps up to two

764
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 3: hours and ten minutes gap. And so this is only

765
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: this is only fueling the need for oversight and reinspection

766
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 3: of this case.

767
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 7: Right.

768
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 5: If you're just joining us, we're talking about the case

769
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 5: of Kendrick Johnson. He is a fifteen year old student

770
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 5: who was found dead tragically rolled up inside a Jim

771
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 5: Matt back in twenty twenty three. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert,

772
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 5: is joining us. I have a quick autopsy question if

773
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 5: you don't mind, before we get back into the timeline,

774
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 5: because that camera stuff is crazy. So the second autopsy

775
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 5: you mentioned, Joseph, it was done the family requested. It

776
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 5: was done by a guy named doctor William R. Anderson

777
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:34,479
Speaker 5: and understanding that in that autopsy he identified blunt force

778
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 5: trauma to the neck and jaw and concluded that the

779
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 5: manner of death was an accidental obviously contracting the initial one. More,

780
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 5: which is one year later, the Office of Armed Forces

781
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 5: Medical Examiner, they listed positional exphyxia as the cause and

782
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 5: accidental as the manor, but later amended to undetermined.

783
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 3: Right, so just determined. So the autopsy just a rephrase

784
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 3: real quick, the autopsy that the family got done, the doctor,

785
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 3: doctor William Anderson, said that it was blunt force trauma. Okay,

786
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 3: Then the our Office of Armed Forces said no, it

787
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 3: was positional with phixia and you know, the accidental, but

788
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 3: then changed it to undetermined. So what they're saying is

789
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 3: it he died from positional exphyxiation, but that they don't

790
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 3: know how he done the.

791
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 5: Mat is that?

792
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 10: Yeah, and that that's troubling. That's again, that's another one

793
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:32,959
Speaker 10: of the problems. You guys want to take a guess

794
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 10: as to why the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology got

795
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 10: involved in this? No, please, because the FBI got involved

796
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 10: in it. And so, contrary to what people think, the

797
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 10: FEDS do not have a medical examiner, all right, So

798
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 10: they're always reliant upon locals or in extreme cases they

799
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 10: will turn to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, which

800
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 10: is located I think I think it Walter read Are.

801
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 10: They're based the bill. It is out of out of

802
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 10: the pen of God. It's a multi service thing. So

803
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 10: you got docks from the Navy, the Army, and the

804
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 10: Air Force. They really don't have a dog in the fight.

805
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 10: So there are analysis of this, and there would have

806
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 10: been multiple eyes on this case that FBI would have

807
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 10: gone to them and would have said, take a look

808
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 10: at the case. Yeah, and it's a really difficult thing

809
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 10: because you know, he's inverted in the mat all right.

810
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 10: So I've had cases, yeah, and I've had cases of

811
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 10: inversion like this. And one of the things that happens

812
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,479
Speaker 10: just think about every time you run out of breath,

813
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 10: you panic. You know, you got the shoes being kicked

814
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 10: off on one end, and then the possibility exists that

815
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 10: you can move your head around and you can sustain

816
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 10: these types of insults. What's really tragic about this is

817
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 10: that this kid was missing for twenty four hours when

818
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 10: he was right under their noses. He was in the school,

819
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 10: and that's a big piece to this because this lies

820
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 10: solely on the feet of the school or you know,

821
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 10: almost not that, not his death, but just the fact

822
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 10: that there's a lack of accountability. And that was one

823
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 10: of the problems I always had because you know, you

824
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 10: send your kids to a public school, you expect that

825
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,959
Speaker 10: they're going to be okay. You don't expect that twenty

826
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 10: four hours later they're going to you know, they're going

827
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 10: to be found in a wrestling matt dead right, And

828
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 10: that's that's one of the things that's very, very troubling

829
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 10: about this, and the family didn't get a lot of

830
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 10: solid answers to begin.

831
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 3: It didn't the family filed lawsuits after a lawsuit, after

832
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,760
Speaker 3: a lawsuit, and just recently on March third, they filed

833
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 3: a federal lawsuit against a bunch of these judges saying

834
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 3: that there's been a cover up in this case. And

835
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 3: this is why one of the reasons we're talking about

836
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: it now, we also have to talk back from a

837
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 3: listener who really wanted us to talk about this with you.

838
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 3: So I'm so glad that you decided to do that

839
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 3: with us, because now I have more questions than I

840
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 3: did prior to talking to you. Joseph exactly.

841
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 10: I think a lot of people do people instead of

842
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 10: Georgia Lowndes County. They have questions about this, Who was involved?

843
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 10: You know, who's you know which direction fingers have been

844
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 10: pointed it in loath these many years. You know, these

845
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 10: people have all moved on, you know, all the principles

846
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 10: have moved on now and of course the unfortunately Kendrick's

847
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 10: mom and daddy are left with his death. You know,

848
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 10: they're the ones that are grieving over this, and it's very,

849
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 10: very sad. It's one of the sadder cases I've covered

850
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 10: over the years.

851
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my goodness. Yeah. And again we'll keep you

852
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 3: updated on any news on this.

853
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 5: Coming up at the top of the hour, Joseph Scott

854
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 5: Morgan sticks with us and he's going to help us

855
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 5: unpack the really complicated case of Lucy Leppie. She's the

856
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 5: neonatal nurse convicted of killing babies in her care.

857
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 3: True Crime Tonight.

858
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

859
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

860
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 2: my most favorite people, Courtney arms H's Wrong.

861
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 3: Body move in.

862
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 2: We have the host of body bags and our very

863
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 2: favorite forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan back with us, and

864
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 2: of course we have Taha, Sam and Adam in the

865
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 2: control room waiting for your call, so Courtney will go

866
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 2: to you. I know when we had Amanda NOx here

867
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,919
Speaker 2: for example last week, she is doing a podcast called

868
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 2: Doubt and it's based on the Lucy let Bee case,

869
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 2: which I wasn't personally very familiar with until it was

870
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: put on my radar when Amanda was here. And we

871
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 2: actually really really think so highly of the podcast. Please

872
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: check it out, but it raises a lot of questions,

873
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: So do you want to give us a little bit

874
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 2: of the setup.

875
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 3: Yes, to catch up people who aren't conversant with this case.

876
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 5: Lucy Leppie so she was a neonatal nurse in England,

877
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 5: so in her job she was caring for premature and

878
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 5: critically ill newborns. Well between twenty twenty five and twenty

879
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 5: twenty six. At that point, the doctors noticed sudden, unexplained

880
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 5: deaths many more or that appeared to be happening while

881
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 5: she was on duty, specifically Lucy let Be. Now, the

882
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 5: prosecutors argue that the incidents were deliberate and alleged to

883
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 5: use methods like air embolism and insulin poisoning to kill

884
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 5: these newborns, as horrible.

885
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 3: As it is to say those words.

886
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 5: In twenty twenty three, Lucy let Be she was convicted

887
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 5: of murdering seven babies and attempting to kill six others.

888
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 5: She's received multiple life sentences. However, after that verdict, questions

889
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 5: still remain about the medical evidence and if it was

890
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:44,439
Speaker 5: indeed Lucy let Be intentionally harming them, or if there's

891
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 5: another explanation. So, Joseph, actually we have a bunch of questions.

892
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 5: But if you have a knee jerk reaction to it,

893
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 5: what's your thoughts In the case.

894
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 10: I felt, you know, from the beginning that she was

895
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 10: responsible for this. I think one of the things that

896
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 10: was really that queued in on other than the fact

897
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 10: she had access an opportunity, were these writings that she

898
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 10: had done, you know, in the wake of it. And

899
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 10: I've heard people, you know, kind of blow those off,

900
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 10: and it just and you know, the big question, I

901
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 10: hate hate the word why, because you always wind up

902
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 10: chasing your tail with why. It's not very scientific all

903
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 10: the time. And so I you know, when I looked

904
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 10: at it on its face and again I'm shaded in

905
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 10: the sense that this is a manifestation you see in

906
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 10: the nursing community, and you've seen it over the years.

907
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 10: There are multiple cases of what are referred to as

908
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 10: angels of death that are out there and they pray

909
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 10: on the weakest among us, and many times it's a

910
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 10: targeted area of people, and in this case it was,

911
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 10: you know, the most the most fragile among us, you know,

912
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 10: these precious little angels that were in her charge. And yeah,

913
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 10: I mean, you know, in some of the some of

914
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 10: the manifestations that you see, you begin to think about

915
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 10: air embolism, certainly consequences of spiked insulin in newborns, which

916
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 10: is a really bizarre thing. It can it can mask

917
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 10: itself as something else. You know, you don't you know,

918
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 10: when you think about a baby dying of something as

919
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 10: as rare as an insolent spike like this, you begin

920
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 10: to think, well, how does this happening and how is

921
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 10: it repeating itself over and over again? If this is

922
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 10: methodology it's being used now one of the things that

923
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 10: you run up against. And I think that probably the

924
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 10: prosecutor or the solicitor's office as they call it, in

925
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 10: great Britain that they ran into was these things are

926
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 10: very difficult to prove, okay, because the evidence it's not

927
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 10: like you're talking about like even a suffocation, which there

928
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 10: have been angels of death that suffocated people as well,

929
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 10: where you might have pe tchi or some kind of

930
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 10: hemorrhage or something like this. This is something that's so

931
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 10: insidious and so cloaked that you could do it and

932
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 10: maybe you're doing it at the end of your shift

933
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 10: and all of a sudden, next shift comes on and

934
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 10: the kid is going into a cardiac arrest.

935
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 9: Wow.

936
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 10: They also set themselves up many times to be the hero.

937
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 10: You know, I'm there, I'm going to rescue, you know,

938
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 10: because now you've got a kid that's on a monitor

939
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 10: and all of a sudden the child gets into distress

940
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 10: and they rush in and they're going to be the hero.

941
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 10: And there have been a number of cases like that.

942
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 10: So there's a lot of psychopathology that's involved in these cases.

943
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 10: And you know, in my opinion, I felt this the

944
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 10: court made the render the right decision here. Often I've

945
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 10: also wondered if if there were other cases that they

946
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 10: had not sussed out, because let me tell you something

947
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,919
Speaker 10: about labor and delivery. It's probably one of the most

948
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 10: joyful places you'll ever be at a hospital. But let

949
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 10: me tell you something, there's no place darker, no place

950
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 10: darker in the hospital in labor and delivery when a

951
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 10: little angel like this does it is a very very

952
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 10: dark Luy.

953
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 5: Yeah.

954
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 11: I was with you, Joseph early on where I questioned

955
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 11: a lot about her and you know, whether Lucy did it,

956
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 11: And the big thing that stood out to me was

957
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,879
Speaker 11: exactly what you brought up, where her manifestos or her.

958
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 9: Little notes that she left, like I am evil I

959
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 9: did this. But when Amanda came on, she tried to

960
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 9: help us understand the logic of it. So I think

961
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 9: she basically said she had a lot of letters and

962
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 9: things that she had written, and they almost cherried the

963
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 9: ones that made her look the worst, like this was

964
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 9: her sort of I don't know, it was a way

965
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 9: of like a cathartic way of her getting through a

966
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 9: stressful situation of all the children that had died. But

967
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 9: now you're making me rethink it again and go back

968
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 9: to where I was at the beginning.

969
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 3: So I don't have any position on this because I

970
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 3: haven't like really dug into the case other than you know,

971
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,919
Speaker 3: reviewing it for the show and getting up to speed

972
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 3: on it and whatnot. And I think what Amanda said

973
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 3: was that, you know, during the time that this nurse

974
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:35,720
Speaker 3: went to therapy, she was being accused by coworkers and whatnot,

975
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 3: and maybe not officially, but she was being accused of

976
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 3: being responsible. So she went to therapy, and part of

977
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 3: the therapy was to write out feelings of well, what

978
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 3: if you did or what if you didn't, And so

979
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 3: she wrote down things like I didn't do this, and

980
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 3: I did do this to make it spark some kind

981
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 3: of feeling or something. I don't know, But here's my

982
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 3: thing about that. I don't care if I who or

983
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 3: what I was a hues of doing. I wouldn't never

984
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 3: write down on a piece of paper that I was

985
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 3: responsible for killing a child if I unless I had

986
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, like everyone's different, but me personally, I

987
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 3: wouldn't even be able to form my fingers to be

988
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 3: able to write them down, do you know what I mean?

989
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 2: But you're also not somebody who's potentially facing kind of

990
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 2: some sort of mental hell.

991
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 3: That's true or is that's very true?

992
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: Composition to take the life of a newborn if that

993
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 2: is instact what she's done. So, you know, it's that

994
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 2: age old question that Joseph always wants to you know,

995
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 2: is always trying to hit me over the head with it.

996
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 2: There's not a why sometimes right, but certainly somebody doing

997
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,919
Speaker 2: this would not be playing with a full deck.

998
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 3: Joseph, you had mentioned that, you know, in some of

999
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 3: these cases, they act as if you know, they're the hero.

1000
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 3: They know what, they know what happened to the baby

1001
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 3: because they did it right, so they're able to come

1002
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 3: in and kind of act as the hero. It was

1003
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 3: reported with Lucy Leppie's case that she wasn't really acting

1004
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 3: as the hero, but she was acting as the comforter.

1005
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 3: She was, you know, consoling the families of these deceased

1006
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 3: children more than other people or other caretakers in the hospital.

1007
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 3: Am I remembering that correctly, you guy? Yeah, that's exactly right.

1008
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 3: Have you seen cases where that is it's like symbiotic

1009
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 3: of something like this.

1010
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 10: I don't know that specifically, but I know that there

1011
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 10: are cases that are out there where individuals will in

1012
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 10: fact inserve themselves, and that is that isn't great because

1013
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:39,439
Speaker 10: people people that engage in when they're entertaining all manner

1014
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 10: of psychopathology without being specific here. They they long, I think,

1015
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 10: on many levels, to be part of it. They want

1016
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 10: to feel it. It's kind of like an arsonist that

1017
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 10: stands there and watches the house burn, you know. They

1018
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 10: they derive pleasure from it, joy, whatever it is, whatever,

1019
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 10: at whatever itch they're trying to scratch, you know, in

1020
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 10: their in their brain. And I think most of us,

1021
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 10: I don't know. I mean, every day, every day, folks,

1022
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 10: they have a hard time kind of trying to understand what,

1023
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 10: well in the world would somebody like this even exists exactly.

1024
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 10: And uh, it's hard to wrap your brain around it.

1025
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 10: But I can. I can tell you that that angels

1026
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 10: of death do in fact exist. There's been several famous

1027
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,919
Speaker 10: ones over the years. I'm recalling one. There's a male

1028
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 10: nurse I think that was out of Ohio, and I

1029
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 10: have a memory of covering the case for some reason

1030
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 10: or one of the cases that was tied back to him. Eventually.

1031
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 10: This is nothing new under the sun, guys, It's really not,

1032
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 10: you know. And Amanda has her own opinions about it,

1033
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 10: I'm sure, and but just from a forensics standpoint, I

1034
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 10: you know, I go back to the old adage about opportunity,

1035
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 10: and it's certainly the ability understanding the mechanism of how

1036
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 10: of how a place like this works, and then and

1037
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 10: then the number. Because you know how I mentioned the

1038
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 10: dark pomps on labor and delivery or a neonate unit.

1039
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 10: They are dark for a reason because things like this

1040
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 10: don't happen in clusters, right, you know that's what makes

1041
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 10: it so freaking dark.

1042
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 8: So that's my two cents.

1043
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, if you're just joining us as a true crime tonight,

1044
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 5: and we are joined by forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

1045
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,720
Speaker 5: He's helping us break down the complicated case of Lucy

1046
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 5: let Be. She's a neonatal nurse accused of murdering multiple

1047
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:44,280
Speaker 5: infants under her care and has been sentenced. I wanted

1048
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 5: to ask you, Joseph, so you know again, Lucy let

1049
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 5: Bee is sentenced. However, excuse me, her case is under

1050
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 5: review with the Criminal Case Review Commission, and I believe

1051
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 5: there's a panel of fourteen international medical experts and they

1052
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 5: see things differently. Does that make you think anything?

1053
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 10: Well, yeah, and I would I think that I would.

1054
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,879
Speaker 10: I would welcome that so that they can get down

1055
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 10: to the bottom of it, because if there are these

1056
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 10: many questions that are being asked, I hope that when

1057
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 10: they're asking these questions, they're not only merely examining the

1058
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 10: evidence that is being directed at, let be, but also

1059
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 10: the manner in which the case was prosecuted, and who

1060
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 10: the medical experts were that were called upon to represent

1061
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 10: the crown. It's the crown in this case in not States,

1062
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 10: So who who the medical experts that were on stand

1063
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 10: that represented the crown, and you know, how they conducted themselves,

1064
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 10: how did they arrive at these conclusions. And we're talking

1065
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 10: about forensic pathologists and we're talking about any of the

1066
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 10: other associated I would imagine they had several neonatal specialist.

1067
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 10: There are physicians that do this. I've known several of them.

1068
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 10: Kind of an interesting profession because many of them literally

1069
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 10: live in the hospital. They live in the hospital for

1070
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 10: a week at a time, and then they go home.

1071
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 10: It's a real interesting niche, niche world that they that

1072
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 10: they exist in. So you would have called those people

1073
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 10: in there as well, you know, and trying to understand

1074
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 10: what the treatment steps are for a child, a newborn

1075
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 10: child that is in a fragile state, and listen, I

1076
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 10: mean all newborn children are in fragile states, right, it's

1077
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 10: just to varying degrees.

1078
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 3: So you mentioned the medical experts that testified a trial,

1079
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 3: and the prosecution's main expert was a guy named Dewey Evans,

1080
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 3: and he testified about the mechanisms in medical terminology such

1081
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 3: as insulin poison in this air embolism, which is what

1082
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 3: they say how these babies died, right, Yeah, well post trial,

1083
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:07,959
Speaker 3: this is interesting. Post trial experts testified and they criticized

1084
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 3: Dewey Evanson's conclusions as medically implausible, and then the expert,

1085
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 3: Dewey Evans himself revised his opinion, which is very interesting

1086
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 3: to me that he revised his opinion post trial, I think,

1087
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 3: and I don't know for sure. I'm not an expert

1088
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 3: on this case by any stretch of the imagination, but

1089
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the reasons this independent council

1090
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 3: in England, and we're not really familiar with the process

1091
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 3: in England, so if you know, give us a call

1092
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 3: eighty eight thirty one crime. But it's my understanding that

1093
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 3: that's one of the main factors in having this council

1094
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 3: of independent people review this case. Does that make you

1095
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 3: think anything.

1096
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:50,439
Speaker 8: Well, yeah, it does.

1097
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 10: It makes me think that maybe they had the wrong

1098
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 10: person that was trying to describe the mechanism and how

1099
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 10: exactly they're credentialed and what kind of background experience they

1100
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 10: might have, you know, relative to this, because this is

1101
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 10: a very specific thing. And as I led with, when

1102
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 10: you begin to think about you're you're talking about two

1103
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 10: different types of causes of death here that are they're

1104
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 10: almost diagnoses of exclusion. You have to exclude everything else.

1105
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 3: Before you arrive back at the It's not obvious.

1106
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 8: Oh no, oh my lord.

1107
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 10: No, It's one of those things that's that's highly complex.

1108
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 10: And the thing about it is it might present in

1109
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 10: a variety of different ways with each individual patient or

1110
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 10: victim here. Brother, I'd rather use that word because they

1111
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 10: are victims, you.

1112
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 3: Know, so in one baby it might present one way,

1113
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 3: and another it would present a completely different one. Yeah,

1114
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 3: it really made them to think it's random or environmentally even.

1115
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 10: Yeah, and again I'd have to go back to the

1116
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 10: clustering of these cases and how and how how long

1117
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 10: a career she has had. This is not like you're

1118
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 10: looking at a seasoned nurse here that has been practicing

1119
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 10: for forty years, since she's been in the same spot

1120
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 10: forty years, right, digging what I'm saying, you're talking about

1121
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 10: an abbreviated time. And then if you really want to clusters,

1122
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 10: and I would imagine this is something else they're going

1123
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 10: to do. They're going to go back into the medical

1124
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 10: records and dig up and see how many other children

1125
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 10: have died in that hospital, and then they're going to

1126
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 10: look at how the hospital was managed and operated.

1127
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 5: Right, Well, stick around because Joseph is as well, and

1128
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 5: we're willing to talk about a pastor.

1129
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1130
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1131
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 2: my favorite mates Courtney Armstrong, Body Move In, and we

1132
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 2: of course have the host of the hit podcast Body Bags,

1133
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan. Hello, Joseph. So we've been talking about

1134
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 2: this Lucy Leppie case. We will be following it and

1135
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 2: continuing to following it. So if there are any new developments, Joseph,

1136
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 2: you're going to have to come back for certain Yes, please, So, body,

1137
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 2: what forensics topic would you like to get to next?

1138
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:23,439
Speaker 3: This pastor in Arizona that we talked about a couple

1139
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 3: months ago with Joseph So the seventy six year old

1140
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 3: at trigger warning for this, by the way, there's some

1141
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 3: really graphic details on this. So seventy six year old

1142
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 3: pastor in Arizona, William Showman, he was found dead inside

1143
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 3: his home in New River, Arizona, on April twenty eighth

1144
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty five, and we talked about this with

1145
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 3: you shortly after that happened, Joseph, And according to investigators,

1146
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 3: his body was positioned with his arms outstretched and pinned

1147
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 3: to a wall in a manner that was described as

1148
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:05,440
Speaker 3: resembling a crucifixion. Authorities arrested a man, he's fifty one

1149
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 3: years old. His name is Adam Sief in connection with

1150
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 3: the killing, who admitted to authorities that he committed the crime,

1151
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 3: and he also told investigators it was part of a

1152
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 3: broader plan targeting Christian leaders. And you know, in a

1153
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 3: shocking twist, Adam Sheef is now asking the court to

1154
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:28,919
Speaker 3: sentence him to death. Wow.

1155
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 10: Ain't that strange. That's the reason it caught my attention,

1156
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 10: And you know, thanks to Tahad, I shot this off

1157
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 10: to him. I was like, you want to talk about

1158
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 10: this again.

1159
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 8: Because it was so bizarre. It's so incredible, hezarre.

1160
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 10: Because you've got you've got this suspect that accused, that's

1161
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 10: actually making comment in two different ways, and just let

1162
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 10: me say this. He he, he says that he did it.

1163
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 10: And then on the other hand, I think he had

1164
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 10: entered a not guilty plea. And now he's suggesting the

1165
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 10: State of Arizona takes long life, which, by the way,

1166
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 10: in the State of Arizona they use lethal injection, some

1167
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 10: form of I don't know, anthesia. You know that they

1168
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 10: would subject him to. There's a whole myriad of these

1169
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 10: things out there, and I just thought it was it

1170
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 10: was super bizarre, you know, kind of you know, first off,

1171
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,439
Speaker 10: the case itself, and you know, I've come to really

1172
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:25,000
Speaker 10: respect this little old guy. You know, he's semi retired.

1173
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 10: He's what's called a I'd never heard of this firm before. Dave,

1174
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 10: my partner on bodybags, told me he's a by By

1175
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 10: vocational pastor, which means, first off, he's retired. This little

1176
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 10: guy like the tinker on the Engines. There's a great

1177
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 10: photo of him, it's so precious. He's sitting in the

1178
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 10: cockpit of a red biplane smiling, and everybody's described him

1179
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 10: as this general guy. And this church is really really tiny,

1180
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 10: and out of all the folks in the world, you know,

1181
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 10: why is this little little old in targeted? And you know,

1182
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 10: Dave and I went back and forth about this, you know,

1183
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 10: kind of talking about it on body bags, and you know,

1184
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 10: we you know a lot of churches now they stream,

1185
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 10: you know, stream services, right. You know, we've heard about

1186
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 10: that in the Guthrie case, right, you know missus Guthrie.

1187
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 10: You know, she would get together with her friends and

1188
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 10: they would watch services in New York where Savannah attended.

1189
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 10: And so you know, you really wondered, did this guy

1190
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 10: just wandering off the street and attend to physical service

1191
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 10: or was it extream? You know, how did he get

1192
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 10: on this guy's radar? Because it turned out he had

1193
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 10: apparently stolen a vehicle up in Sedona, one of my

1194
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 10: favorite places. By the way, I longed to go back

1195
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 10: there again sometimes, so hi to everybody in Sadonah. And

1196
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 10: then headed south from there, back toward Americopa County. And

1197
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 10: you say Markopa County, people think, well Phoenix, and Phoenix

1198
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 10: is like, I don't know, it's like one of the

1199
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 10: top five most populated places, largest cities in America. But

1200
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 10: there's a lot of rural to Maricopa County and they're

1201
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 10: like on the north end of this county. I think

1202
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 10: there's like five thousand people in this little town. Why

1203
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 10: choose this man and what do this to him? I mean,

1204
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 10: my lord lordy, you'd mentioned the list that this guy

1205
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 10: allegedly put together or something, right, Yeah, he he.

1206
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 3: Was going to do this to other pastors in the

1207
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 3: Christian leadership, like he was targeting Christians, or not just

1208
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 3: Christians I shouldn't say that, but Christian pastures. And you know,

1209
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 3: he's admitted to this and said, you know that he

1210
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 3: wants the family of the victim to be able to

1211
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 3: move on, and that he wants his family to be

1212
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 3: able to move on, and he just wants to be

1213
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 3: put to death. But you know he said that in

1214
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:52,760
Speaker 3: addition to crucifying this pastor that you spoke so highly of,

1215
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 3: he also put a crown of thorns on him. I mean,

1216
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 3: he really the imagery is frightening. It sounds like a

1217
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 3: like a scary movie, it really does.

1218
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 10: You know what really strikes me about this is that

1219
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 10: this story broke about these things that he say, and

1220
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 10: we are literally right in the middle of Lent right now,

1221
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 10: we're headed towards he and I found that very and

1222
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 10: maybe that's just me. I don't know, you know, but

1223
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 10: it just it struck me as really odd that this

1224
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 10: would drop during this I think we're in like the

1225
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 10: fourth week of Lent right now, if I'm not mistaken,

1226
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 10: and you know, coming towards the end quickly, and that

1227
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 10: this story would drop about him saying, you know, I

1228
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 10: want the state to take my life at this point.

1229
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 10: But going back, I find it very curious. You know,

1230
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 10: he's got this list and we have no idea you

1231
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 10: know who's on the list. I'm sure that Marykopa County does.

1232
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 10: But it's interesting that he didn't go out to a

1233
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 10: megachurch and choose some preacher that's got a security team.

1234
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 10: He went to this guy, hired the Tinkers with engines

1235
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 10: on the side, and allegedly did this horrible thing to him.

1236
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 10: And they've still not been very specific about about the

1237
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 10: pathology here involved relative to the trauma that was inflicted

1238
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 10: upon this guy pastor Bill I think is the name

1239
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 10: that they gave him, or how he was actually pinned

1240
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 10: to the wall, and I've had several people ask me

1241
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:27,760
Speaker 10: that question. Was he secured with rope in some way

1242
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,320
Speaker 10: and that was pinned or or you know, he's got

1243
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 10: something driven through his hands or his wrist, and yeah,

1244
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 10: I had to you know, sorry, and that's you know,

1245
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:44,240
Speaker 10: that's kind of what I was thinking in this particular case,

1246
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 10: and was the goal to try to you know, we

1247
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 10: talked about earlier with Kendrick. We talked about position of sixty.

1248
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:52,160
Speaker 10: I don't know if you guys are aware of this.

1249
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 10: You probably heard this over the years. I know a

1250
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,000
Speaker 10: lot of your listeners are very bright, they've probably heard

1251
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 10: this too. But when you think about crucifixion, one of

1252
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 10: the way is the the mechanism of death is actually

1253
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 10: a positionalistics you because what you're doing is you're counting

1254
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:11,479
Speaker 10: your your hands are above your head. Uh, you can't

1255
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 10: leverage yourself really to you know, facilitate your diaphragm from work.

1256
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 10: That's one of the reasons the Romans were known for

1257
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 10: breaking legs because after they had gone and it was

1258
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:25,880
Speaker 10: one of the crucifixion was considered to be one of

1259
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 10: the most insulting ways that a person could die. You're

1260
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 10: strip naked, you're hung out in public so that anybody

1261
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:35,120
Speaker 10: can see. You see that this is not something swift,

1262
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 10: all right. So there's a lot going on here, bubbling

1263
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:42,760
Speaker 10: underneath the surface. I just I find it curious the

1264
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 10: time of year that this, you know, that this kind

1265
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 10: of drops and watchoose this little old guy that you know,

1266
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 10: you know, there's none of us are perfect, but you know,

1267
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,120
Speaker 10: I got to tell you he's probably closer to perfect

1268
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 10: than I'll ever be.

1269
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, it certainly seems it if you're just joining us.

1270
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 5: This is true crime tonight. And we are joined by

1271
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 5: Joseph Scott Morgan, who's helping us break down the case

1272
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:12,719
Speaker 5: of pastor William Showman. He was found dead, crucified actually,

1273
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:16,560
Speaker 5: and the man who has been arrested for it is

1274
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:21,599
Speaker 5: now asking to be put to death. One I had

1275
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 5: a thing about the accused, Adam Sief. So he called

1276
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:31,799
Speaker 5: this plan this, this plan to target Christian leaders operation

1277
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 5: first Commandment, and said that he was going to kill

1278
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 5: multiple but operation first Commandment, which the first commandment is

1279
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:44,560
Speaker 5: thou shalt not have no other gods before me.

1280
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 3: So I'm the Lord, your God. That's how it starts,

1281
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 3: right right. And I always imagine, like you know, a

1282
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 3: movie scene. When I'm hearing this in conjunction with this crime,

1283
01:10:56,520 --> 01:11:00,720
Speaker 3: I am the Lord your God like it's it's almost vengeful, yes,

1284
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:05,920
Speaker 3: right in it's and you shall not have strange gods

1285
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 3: before me or other gods before me. And there's is

1286
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 3: this guy? Now listen, Joseph, I know you're not a

1287
01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:19,600
Speaker 3: psychiatrist or anything like that, but is this guys?

1288
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,080
Speaker 8: But they still they still.

1289
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 3: Said to you, was so, is this guy does he

1290
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:27,520
Speaker 3: does he have a God complex? Or is he punishing

1291
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 3: people of the Christian faith for worshiping false idols in

1292
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:35,040
Speaker 3: his own mind? I'm not I'm not saying Christians do that.

1293
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:37,920
Speaker 10: But let me let me throw this bit of info

1294
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 10: to you because I had to look this up because

1295
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 10: when I saw this guy smokeshot, I'm thinking I've gotten

1296
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 10: kind of numb to see facial tattoos and that sort

1297
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 10: of thing. Yeah, so I'm taking a gander at his neck.

1298
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 10: And I'm no Hebrew scholar. Certainly I have tough enough

1299
01:11:56,000 --> 01:12:01,080
Speaker 10: time with forensics, let alone Hebrew. And uh so I

1300
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 10: got on this thing, this tattoo that he's got on

1301
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:08,080
Speaker 10: his neck literally says Yeahweh, which is the unspoken name

1302
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 10: of God. Yeah, you know, and so he's got this tattooed.

1303
01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 10: And look, anybody that's out there is interested in case,

1304
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 10: look up this image because it's it's quite striking. I mean,

1305
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 10: it's a bold it's right there. And so body to

1306
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 10: your point and in Courtney as well, is he targeting

1307
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 10: you know, is he targeting leadership that maybe have put

1308
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:33,679
Speaker 10: himself up on a pedestal or in his his bris mind,

1309
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 10: in his mind, and he's going to be, you know,

1310
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:40,040
Speaker 10: the avenging Angel or whatever. And of course, if you're

1311
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 10: the avenging Angel, you're always going to start with you know,

1312
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:50,760
Speaker 10: Pastor Bill in Rural County, Arizona. Yeah, so, I don't know.

1313
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:54,640
Speaker 10: It's it's so incredibly bizarre. And I would think the

1314
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,600
Speaker 10: way he went about doing this, he thought about this.

1315
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:00,720
Speaker 10: This is not like something it's like, well, yeah, let

1316
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 10: me see if Pastor Bill's got what I need around

1317
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:06,280
Speaker 10: the house to conduct a pseudo crucifixion.

1318
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:09,080
Speaker 8: He showed up prepared, I think, right.

1319
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:13,840
Speaker 3: Because putting somebody in a crucifix position takes a little

1320
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:15,759
Speaker 3: bit of planning, right, Joseph Lake.

1321
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, listen, it's and here's another thing that

1322
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:22,600
Speaker 10: we don't know. We don't know if this is like

1323
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:26,160
Speaker 10: what we refer to as post mortem posing. I've worked

1324
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 10: serial homicides before, one in particular that comes to mind

1325
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:31,600
Speaker 10: again back to Dave, I was having this discussion with

1326
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:37,479
Speaker 10: him the other day that we had that I had

1327
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 10: a case where this particular killer was posing prostitutes in

1328
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:45,840
Speaker 10: a post mortem manner, in a post mortem state. Rather so,

1329
01:13:47,040 --> 01:13:50,479
Speaker 10: if you're doing this in the post mortem state, it's

1330
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 10: very very difficult to do. And even in the anti

1331
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 10: mortem state before death, you think somebody's going to comply

1332
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:59,679
Speaker 10: to having you, you know, secure their hands and whatever

1333
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 10: factor you're using, it's a very difficult task to think

1334
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:05,800
Speaker 10: about doing at any point in tom and how are

1335
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 10: you going to get them suspended? How are you going

1336
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 10: to get them secured? So I think that that's also

1337
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 10: something else that we have that we have to consider here.

1338
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:18,320
Speaker 10: You know, when when did this you know, shoring up

1339
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:21,120
Speaker 10: or whatever the case might be, When exactly did that

1340
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:23,680
Speaker 10: take place post mortem state or was it in an

1341
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:24,679
Speaker 10: anti mortem state?

1342
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:31,080
Speaker 5: M Well, the accused, you know, he has said he

1343
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 5: has claimed he has no mental health issues, he knew

1344
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:38,200
Speaker 5: what he did was wrong, and therefore he says there's

1345
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:40,439
Speaker 5: no reason the state should not move forward with his

1346
01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 5: sentencing and execution, and to quote him, we're dragging this

1347
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 5: out in the interest of justice.

1348
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:49,599
Speaker 3: What about the victim's family? What about me? My family

1349
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 3: want close it or move on with our lives. So normally,

1350
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 3: when you plead guilty, right, normally, when you plead guilty,

1351
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 3: the death penalty is taking off the table, right, It's

1352
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:05,559
Speaker 3: it's the death penalty is often used as a bargaining chip. Right,

1353
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 3: this guy's throwing himself at the mercy of the court

1354
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:11,080
Speaker 3: and saying, no, I want it. I don't know that

1355
01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:13,280
Speaker 3: they'll I don't know that they're going to do that.

1356
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:17,439
Speaker 5: This would be an interesting question for Jared Farantino. Oh, totally,

1357
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:21,720
Speaker 5: and we will definitely keep everyone updated. I I have

1358
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 5: a question, Joseph, are you participating in lent because when

1359
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 5: you said you think you're in the fourth week, I

1360
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:31,800
Speaker 5: was like, yes, because I actually am counting days until

1361
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:34,120
Speaker 5: I get you this.

1362
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:37,920
Speaker 10: Way, I'm trying to participate in l Thank you for

1363
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:39,920
Speaker 10: that painful reminder there, Courtney.

1364
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:43,559
Speaker 8: I really I'm trying.

1365
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:45,160
Speaker 10: I'm really trying.

1366
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:48,080
Speaker 3: It's difficult.

1367
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:51,240
Speaker 2: It's difficult to double She get a double lens at

1368
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 2: the exact same time for me.

1369
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:54,479
Speaker 8: I've been trying to.

1370
01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 10: I've been trying to do it, and I'm also thinking

1371
01:15:56,960 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 10: about I've missed every Friday, Catholic Friday. They want you,

1372
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:04,400
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, come and pray the stations of the Cross.

1373
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 10: And I have almost myself that I would do that.

1374
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 10: I think I might try to do that this Friday.

1375
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:12,480
Speaker 3: But yeah, so, uh, jose did you get your confirmation?

1376
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, what mean? Did you choose Joseph? My patron

1377
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:21,599
Speaker 10: saint is actually Saint Joseph. So the reason, the reason

1378
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:24,800
Speaker 10: is is because I wanted to be the best father

1379
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:27,000
Speaker 10: and grandpa that I could be, and he's a patron

1380
01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:31,320
Speaker 10: saint above. So that's you know, that's that that was

1381
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:34,960
Speaker 10: my choice because that's that's the most I don't know

1382
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:37,640
Speaker 10: that that's the most noble thing that I could that

1383
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:40,000
Speaker 10: I could choose. Uh, you know, I think for the

1384
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:45,720
Speaker 10: betterment of my line. So yeah, that's Saint Joseph is

1385
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:47,719
Speaker 10: my is my patron saint mine.

1386
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 3: I chose Francis because my grandmother's name is Francis, and

1387
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:55,000
Speaker 3: you know, Saint Francis was the patron scene of animals.

1388
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:58,559
Speaker 3: Oh so you know, even sixteen year old or seventeen

1389
01:16:58,600 --> 01:17:01,559
Speaker 3: year old body moving was going for the animal stuff. Yeah,

1390
01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:05,320
Speaker 3: Saint Francis, Yeah, I love you. As a Catholic, you

1391
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:07,320
Speaker 3: have to get confirmed when you know you're just like

1392
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 3: a seniorish in high school and you choose a saint name.

1393
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 3: So my name is officially Da Da Da Da Da

1394
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:14,080
Speaker 3: Francis Thompson.

1395
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:19,200
Speaker 5: Well, Joseph, listen, we are so grateful that you came. Yeah,

1396
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:22,759
Speaker 5: you always help bring everything down. I know we missed

1397
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:25,320
Speaker 5: you last week. We will see you again very very soon,

1398
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 5: and listen. Anyone who needs more Joseph sooner go to

1399
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 5: his hit podcast, body Bag. He's also at Joseph Scott

1400
01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:34,400
Speaker 5: Morgan on YouTube Stick Around.

1401
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, We're talking

1402
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:49,920
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. How lovely to have Joseph

1403
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:51,200
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan with us.

1404
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:51,920
Speaker 3: Thank you Joseph.

1405
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:54,760
Speaker 2: As always, I'm so proud of him. He's really too

1406
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:57,599
Speaker 2: frushing it right now. He's everywhere. He's in so many

1407
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:01,960
Speaker 2: different cases, in so many different shows. To think, just

1408
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:05,719
Speaker 2: yesteryear he was our Joseph and now a little world

1409
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:09,320
Speaker 2: count right and he's just really popping off, which is

1410
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:12,800
Speaker 2: so exciting because the world needs him wed.

1411
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:15,920
Speaker 3: Him, we do, right, So anyway here with the gang,

1412
01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 3: and yeah, let's go to some talkbacks. What do you

1413
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:20,200
Speaker 3: think I do it?

1414
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:21,760
Speaker 6: I hate it, but let me can I set the

1415
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:24,800
Speaker 6: stage for what's going on. Body said something a few

1416
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:27,759
Speaker 6: about a week or so ago about walk on music

1417
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 6: and what would be your walk on cue, like if

1418
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:32,519
Speaker 6: you were on a show, and what song would you have? Well,

1419
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:34,920
Speaker 6: let me tell you the talkbacks we have received. They

1420
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:37,800
Speaker 6: have been pouring in, so we got a lot and

1421
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:40,000
Speaker 6: there are a lot of people who say their specific songs.

1422
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:42,479
Speaker 6: So Sam and Adam have them queued up and we

1423
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 6: might even play a couple of the songs. So Sam,

1424
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:46,760
Speaker 6: why don't you go to that first one we had

1425
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:47,360
Speaker 6: ready to go?

1426
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:50,920
Speaker 12: Hi, Lady Stephanie from Ohio. I just wanted to say

1427
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 12: that my walk on music would be rocky like a hurricane.

1428
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:57,040
Speaker 12: I know it probably dates me a little bit, but

1429
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,559
Speaker 12: I don't care. It's one of my favorite songs. Either

1430
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 12: that or a C D C. You shook me all

1431
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:02,680
Speaker 12: night long.

1432
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 3: It always gives me hyped up.

1433
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:06,439
Speaker 12: I have a great day, love you all.

1434
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 3: Bye. We got to play a little excerpt. You know,

1435
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:14,400
Speaker 3: someone's not familiar with this greatness. There we go, You're

1436
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 3: shaken yes, go get them stick.

1437
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 6: This is leaning into what I was saying, we need

1438
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 6: a karaoke night because every time we do PA, you

1439
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 6: guys go wild.

1440
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 4: That I could see you, guys, I.

1441
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 3: Was dancing in my chair right. People probably don't believe you,

1442
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 3: but I really was. You know what's so funny is

1443
01:19:33,160 --> 01:19:35,800
Speaker 3: I had said that my walk on music or walk

1444
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:38,320
Speaker 3: off music, whatever it is, would probably be girls just

1445
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 3: want to have fun. Listen, I panicked. I don't know

1446
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:44,479
Speaker 3: what I was thinking. My song would obviously be body

1447
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 3: Moving from the Beasie Boys. Dull, I'm not going to

1448
01:19:48,439 --> 01:19:51,080
Speaker 3: play that right now, But like, what was I thinking?

1449
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:53,439
Speaker 3: What were I want to have fun?

1450
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:54,600
Speaker 13: You know what it was?

1451
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:59,400
Speaker 3: I panicked like in the moment, and I like blacked out.

1452
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:01,800
Speaker 3: I was like, why did I As soon as the

1453
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:03,200
Speaker 3: words came out of my mouth, I was like, what

1454
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:06,360
Speaker 3: am I doing? You were you were gonna party like

1455
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 3: a rock star and girls don't want to have fun

1456
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:11,120
Speaker 3: and you are who likes to have it? And I

1457
01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:11,800
Speaker 3: applaud that.

1458
01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 4: Stephanie, did you pick a song? I don't remember if

1459
01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 4: you was here that night.

1460
01:20:18,320 --> 01:20:19,880
Speaker 2: Well, on the spot, I feel like you guys should

1461
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:21,519
Speaker 2: come back to me. I mean, I do have songs

1462
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,560
Speaker 2: in my messy head, and I no one will be

1463
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 2: totally surprised to hear this. So sometimes when I get

1464
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:30,639
Speaker 2: nervous or if I'm walking into a meeting, this happens

1465
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:34,160
Speaker 2: actually quite a bit and I start to panic, which

1466
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:36,240
Speaker 2: totally happens in my head.

1467
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:49,800
Speaker 3: I hear that song groove is in Hot to Come.

1468
01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:56,800
Speaker 5: It is like.

1469
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:01,800
Speaker 2: Ally mcfeeling in my head quite a bit, and it

1470
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:04,000
Speaker 2: just kind of makes you feel a little merry and

1471
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 2: it does pick you up, doesn't.

1472
01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:07,080
Speaker 3: It a little pick me up?

1473
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:08,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a funny.

1474
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 3: That's a good one. That is a good song. I

1475
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 3: used to love that song when I was like a teenager.

1476
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:12,800
Speaker 2: Me too.

1477
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:16,040
Speaker 4: Everything that group did, like Delight was one of my favorites.

1478
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:17,800
Speaker 3: Well, that's why I couldn't remember the name.

1479
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:20,080
Speaker 4: Let's do another one. Let's hear another song that someone

1480
01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:22,000
Speaker 4: else sing would my.

1481
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:26,400
Speaker 13: True crime Tonight Crew. This is body's name twin Deanna

1482
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:29,560
Speaker 13: from Georgia. I just wanted to tell you about my

1483
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:33,200
Speaker 13: walk up song. It is whip It by Devo. My

1484
01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:35,920
Speaker 13: maiden name was Whips when I was a kid, so

1485
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 13: I had that theme song all through college and it rocked.

1486
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:42,479
Speaker 3: I have a great name. My god, I love this song.

1487
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:45,120
Speaker 3: That's a great one. What a great nickname to be

1488
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 3: called whi whips. I never changed my name if my

1489
01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 3: last name was whips. I had a friend his last

1490
01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:53,360
Speaker 3: name was Savage and I was always dolls of him.

1491
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:55,280
Speaker 3: I was like, no, I want to change my last

1492
01:21:55,320 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 3: name of Savage. What's ahole name? A savage savage whip?

1493
01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:00,720
Speaker 3: I would take that.

1494
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:06,800
Speaker 2: Do we have any more great name? Honestly like that

1495
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:10,080
Speaker 2: just it means volume. I picture you in the middle

1496
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:12,800
Speaker 2: of a mash pit, dance into the song and in

1497
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 2: the air and everyone's screaming whips, whips, whips.

1498
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:20,880
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, we do have another. We can go from

1499
01:22:20,920 --> 01:22:21,280
Speaker 4: one war.

1500
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 14: Hey, it's chet, it's from Atlanta, y'all are talking about. Well,

1501
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 14: you're telling Taha to change his walkout song from party

1502
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 14: all the time, and you absolutely cannot do that, Taha.

1503
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 14: As soon as you sing it on the other episode,

1504
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:36,360
Speaker 14: I was like, oh my gosh, that's our dance party song,

1505
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:38,360
Speaker 14: because that is one of our dance party songs that

1506
01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:41,439
Speaker 14: we have with my two year old daughter before bed.

1507
01:22:41,960 --> 01:22:45,519
Speaker 3: So I think it's fabulous. It's a great song. Never change,

1508
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:49,080
Speaker 3: never change. Can we hear that one? I really want

1509
01:22:49,120 --> 01:22:50,720
Speaker 3: people who have not heard the song.

1510
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:54,639
Speaker 2: He was like, I can't believe I said that on air.

1511
01:22:55,160 --> 01:22:57,120
Speaker 2: That is the perfect song. I would be mad if

1512
01:22:57,160 --> 01:22:59,240
Speaker 2: you ever thought of changing. Go ahead, let's hear.

1513
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:09,320
Speaker 3: That body all the time. Oh my god, remind me

1514
01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:13,200
Speaker 3: is this whims.

1515
01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:18,000
Speaker 4: And Body's reaction that night was hysterical and I was like,

1516
01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:20,200
Speaker 4: party all the time. She's like, Eddie.

1517
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:25,640
Speaker 8: The world, glad to know that.

1518
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:26,680
Speaker 4: I have the best.

1519
01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:29,920
Speaker 3: Toddlers like it.

1520
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:34,639
Speaker 2: Shout out to the mama who's doing dances. We all

1521
01:23:35,160 --> 01:23:38,920
Speaker 2: need to dance more, period, and I become margatory. We

1522
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:41,600
Speaker 2: hung up our weighted vest just for a week, and

1523
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:45,280
Speaker 2: we're going to look at those. However, right now we're

1524
01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:47,360
Speaker 2: all feeling a little like the world is insane.

1525
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:49,439
Speaker 3: We need to dance more. We don't need to add

1526
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:52,840
Speaker 3: more weight to our shoulders. In fact, we need to

1527
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:56,240
Speaker 3: shake them and dance and be silly and have some giggles.

1528
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:59,400
Speaker 3: So that is that's our homework for this week.

1529
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:00,680
Speaker 4: I more.

1530
01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:02,960
Speaker 3: It's such a good idea, but I can't let go

1531
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:08,439
Speaker 3: of Eddie Murphy. I'm so sorry. Listen the video for

1532
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:13,040
Speaker 3: this music video is so epic and so taha, right,

1533
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:16,240
Speaker 3: Eddie Murphy. He like walks into the studio and guess

1534
01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:19,920
Speaker 3: who's there, Rick James. And Rick James is like go

1535
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:22,560
Speaker 3: in the booth and get the headphones, man, and and

1536
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:25,519
Speaker 3: he's like, all right, I'm on it. Senny goes in

1537
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:29,000
Speaker 3: and there's all these beautiful backup singers and Eddie Murphy

1538
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:31,840
Speaker 3: like he literally puts his finger to his ear, like.

1539
01:24:32,160 --> 01:24:37,200
Speaker 15: Oh I got to hear myself sing about and diamonds

1540
01:24:37,200 --> 01:24:42,800
Speaker 15: on your fingers. And I'm like, taha, what were you

1541
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 15: wearing cavaichi pants at the time?

1542
01:24:46,479 --> 01:24:46,879
Speaker 4: Jacket?

1543
01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1544
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:50,639
Speaker 3: Are you having a squared high top? Are you giving

1545
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:53,720
Speaker 3: you a little arsenio at that time? I'm into it,

1546
01:24:56,840 --> 01:24:58,679
Speaker 3: get and play like high top?

1547
01:24:58,840 --> 01:24:59,280
Speaker 12: Is that what you have?

1548
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:03,200
Speaker 4: I did have jairy curls at once.

1549
01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:06,320
Speaker 3: So my best friend Tiffany in high school had Jerry girls.

1550
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:09,320
Speaker 3: They were the most beautiful Jerry girls ever. But she

1551
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:11,439
Speaker 3: used to have to get it done like all the time.

1552
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:12,840
Speaker 4: You have to do it all the time, and it

1553
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:16,560
Speaker 4: ruins anything, like everything crips on, everything.

1554
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:19,320
Speaker 3: Dripped everywhere, poor thing. But it looks so pretty.

1555
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 7: I love that.

1556
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:25,040
Speaker 5: I will give you one thousand dollars a picture Jerry

1557
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:29,720
Speaker 5: dressing about clothing be like dripped on.

1558
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:34,080
Speaker 2: Like justcause he's really very polished.

1559
01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 3: We should all know that Taha is polished.

1560
01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:41,439
Speaker 2: She's always stapper and well greery fans dressed and handsome

1561
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:44,880
Speaker 2: to get a posture, you know, imagine a clipboard and

1562
01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:50,519
Speaker 2: and and he's so handsome, right, and what a riot though,

1563
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:53,160
Speaker 2: you with the cavarecy pants man.

1564
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:58,080
Speaker 4: But I couldn't think of a good song. I mean,

1565
01:25:58,160 --> 01:25:58,760
Speaker 4: that's a good one.

1566
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:00,360
Speaker 3: It's a great sonds I did.

1567
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:03,640
Speaker 4: Every song that came to mind was like so inappropriate.

1568
01:26:03,680 --> 01:26:05,040
Speaker 4: I was like a virgin.

1569
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:14,240
Speaker 3: Hilarious. That's actually even better.

1570
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:15,639
Speaker 12: Tell that one.

1571
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:21,600
Speaker 3: To an amusement park when I was little. I was

1572
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 3: like eleven and whatever whatever grade you're in when you're

1573
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:29,160
Speaker 3: in sixth grade, all right, And they had this recording

1574
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:31,360
Speaker 3: booth that you could go in. You pay like thirty dollars,

1575
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:33,559
Speaker 3: I can't remember the price, and you could just sing

1576
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:34,920
Speaker 3: your favorite song and they give it to you on

1577
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:38,160
Speaker 3: a cassette tape. And I begged my mom, I want

1578
01:26:38,200 --> 01:26:42,920
Speaker 3: to sing like an She got her tip money from

1579
01:26:42,960 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 3: being a waitress out and paid this big amount of

1580
01:26:45,400 --> 01:26:47,960
Speaker 3: money for me to go into the studio and sing

1581
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 3: the song. Right, So I did and get the tape

1582
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:51,640
Speaker 3: and I get home and I listened to it and

1583
01:26:51,680 --> 01:26:55,080
Speaker 3: I'm bawling because I sound ridiculous, and I destroyed the

1584
01:26:55,160 --> 01:26:57,960
Speaker 3: tape and I got rounded for like seven months. No,

1585
01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:00,240
Speaker 3: it was like all the money, my mom, man, but

1586
01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 3: it's to take like tore it up because it was like,

1587
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:05,800
Speaker 3: oh my god, I was like a goat in there,

1588
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:12,439
Speaker 3: you know, and you you know, like the worst ever.

1589
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:18,680
Speaker 4: Definitely, can we circle back to your song? Did you

1590
01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:19,519
Speaker 4: come up with one yet?

1591
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:20,360
Speaker 3: That's one?

1592
01:27:20,479 --> 01:27:24,960
Speaker 4: She said, Okay, that's right.

1593
01:27:25,200 --> 01:27:27,280
Speaker 2: I'm happy to think of another one. I I also

1594
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:32,919
Speaker 2: recorded at Great Adventure, a big hot we did ice Castles.

1595
01:27:33,160 --> 01:27:36,639
Speaker 2: Do you remember the theme song of ice Castles?

1596
01:27:36,680 --> 01:27:39,040
Speaker 3: The like movie back in the day. I don't even

1597
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:42,719
Speaker 3: know that it's yeah, it doesn't, it's not you know, Okay,

1598
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:47,080
Speaker 3: it's terrible.

1599
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:48,200
Speaker 4: Terrible choice.

1600
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:50,040
Speaker 3: I can't remember, is it? Hold on?

1601
01:27:50,160 --> 01:27:54,160
Speaker 5: I'm still on ice Castles. Through the Eyes of Love, Stephanie.

1602
01:27:55,760 --> 01:27:59,040
Speaker 5: I also had the nerve to do it my brother's wedding.

1603
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:07,640
Speaker 5: All the two of us moan the mountains that, Oh

1604
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:11,360
Speaker 5: that's the wings of love, oh, all the rings of love.

1605
01:28:11,840 --> 01:28:12,679
Speaker 4: The same idea.

1606
01:28:13,479 --> 01:28:18,360
Speaker 5: Actually, car this is Stephanie's number, backup, walk up song.

1607
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:20,920
Speaker 3: This is her way, and gentlemen, here we go, let's

1608
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:21,240
Speaker 3: play it.

1609
01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:36,160
Speaker 4: She's going to be walking out slow. That could not

1610
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 4: be a walk. It's my crawl music, all on stage music.

1611
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:47,599
Speaker 3: This is the music Stephanie hears in her head. She's

1612
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:50,720
Speaker 3: going into high power meetings with like ipart and like.

1613
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:52,839
Speaker 5: Network.

1614
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:57,439
Speaker 4: Right, that's too funny. Thank you for playing it, Cordy,

1615
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 4: because I did not know that one. Here literally, where

1616
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:03,200
Speaker 4: is my copriend?

1617
01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:04,920
Speaker 3: Karen and I did it as a duet.

1618
01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:13,960
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I didn't know.

1619
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:16,759
Speaker 3: It's it's such famous people making cassettes and singing.

1620
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:18,599
Speaker 8: Do us great man?

1621
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:26,240
Speaker 3: When you're pulling my level and thick glasses, you can do?

1622
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:28,759
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Samon Adam, Yes, please.

1623
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:29,240
Speaker 4: What are yours?

1624
01:29:29,520 --> 01:29:32,559
Speaker 3: I have a hard time because I'm thinking of songs

1625
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:34,519
Speaker 3: that are guitar heavy.

1626
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm picturing come on, let's get a little black

1627
01:29:37,920 --> 01:29:41,559
Speaker 2: sappit up in here. I'm imagining you having of course,

1628
01:29:42,080 --> 01:29:42,960
Speaker 2: somebody really great.

1629
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 3: I'm imagining nine inch nails or something. It will also

1630
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:49,360
Speaker 3: would be that. And actually I have done Closer as

1631
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:53,560
Speaker 3: a karaoke okay, Closer. I was thinking like March of

1632
01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:54,400
Speaker 3: the Pigs.

1633
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:56,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, that is my favorite nine inch nails.

1634
01:29:56,439 --> 01:29:57,719
Speaker 3: Stop it are you serious?

1635
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:01,840
Speaker 4: Good one nailed it, Adam, you're up.

1636
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:06,280
Speaker 3: I would say, what about Coming Up by Paul McCartney.

1637
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:07,800
Speaker 3: I don't know if you know that one. I don't know,

1638
01:30:07,960 --> 01:30:11,320
Speaker 3: so it's roll upbeat. It's like I think he came

1639
01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:12,639
Speaker 3: out in nineteen eighty or something.

1640
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:15,280
Speaker 2: It's you know, if you hear a little, this is

1641
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:17,599
Speaker 2: the ice Castles of Paul McCarty.

1642
01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:35,360
Speaker 3: I'm going to play the song every day. No, let's

1643
01:30:35,400 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 3: get I have the most depressing walk. That's like it

1644
01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:47,439
Speaker 3: on the Epstein Files. Coming Up's fun. You could dance

1645
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 3: to Coming Up?

1646
01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:48,599
Speaker 2: Really?

1647
01:30:49,080 --> 01:30:49,280
Speaker 10: Yeah?

1648
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:49,599
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1649
01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:53,640
Speaker 6: Because I was thinking of audio coming, I thought he

1650
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:54,680
Speaker 6: was gonna say I'm coming out.

1651
01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:56,360
Speaker 4: I was like, oh that's all.

1652
01:30:57,000 --> 01:30:59,200
Speaker 16: I was thinking of the Parks and Wreck when they're

1653
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:01,200
Speaker 16: walking out on the I shrink and it's the.

1654
01:31:01,560 --> 01:31:02,800
Speaker 3: Get on your feet.

1655
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:08,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a great one. Why can't I think

1656
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:10,320
Speaker 2: of the Paul McCartney song. I almost feel like we

1657
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:16,880
Speaker 2: need to my mother all the rails. When we worked

1658
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:19,439
Speaker 2: at the Sally Jesse Rafael Show to talk about dating

1659
01:31:19,479 --> 01:31:22,080
Speaker 2: ourselves from a thousand years ago, Like my job as

1660
01:31:22,080 --> 01:31:25,640
Speaker 2: an intern was to take a cassette recorder, and I

1661
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:29,080
Speaker 2: have to pick the music that the guests would.

1662
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:29,360
Speaker 4: Walk out to.

1663
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:32,080
Speaker 2: That's where the walkout music, you know, kind of comes from.

1664
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:34,519
Speaker 2: So when they're like, oh, welcome, so and so.

1665
01:31:36,280 --> 01:31:42,040
Speaker 16: There's somebody like me like pushing a button hopefully that

1666
01:31:42,120 --> 01:31:45,000
Speaker 16: song and it's like if it's aggressive, or if it's exciting,

1667
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:47,760
Speaker 16: or if it's like a makeover, it all has different music,

1668
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:49,960
Speaker 16: so that I'm.

1669
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:51,599
Speaker 3: Glad we did. That was a heavy show.

1670
01:31:54,040 --> 01:31:56,799
Speaker 2: Thanks guys for sending us your stuff. That was hilarious.

1671
01:31:57,320 --> 01:31:59,679
Speaker 2: I needed the giggle. We have Christine Coffee here tomorrow.

1672
01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:02,679
Speaker 2: She's going to you know, settle our chie and get

1673
01:32:02,760 --> 01:32:04,800
Speaker 2: us recalibrated.

1674
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:08,920
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us tonight. Stay safe, good night, good night,