WEBVTT - Salvator Mundi 0:00:01.080 --> 0:00:06.519 You're listening to Hoax, a production of iHeart Podcasts. 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:13.440 Folks, it's a hug, No, I haven't seen when us. 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:23.360 To see the Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:24.400 lies we wish were. 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:26.360 True and truths that sound like lies. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:27.880 I'm the ghost of Danish Wartz and. 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:32.720 I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan. Welcome to the show, Dana. 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:35.400 What do you know about the painting known as the 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:36.479 Salvator Mondie? 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.600 I can sort of picture it in my mind's eye. 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.919 I've like seen it and I it was like maybe 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.720 by Leonardo da Vinci and it sold for a lot 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.479 of money. Yep. I think that's the extent of what 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:50.080 I know about it. 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:52.320 Those are the main things. Those are the main thing. 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:53.320 Pot episode over. 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.360 Well, yeah, sure, I mean those are the main things. 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:00.680 You're not wrong. I will say this is a to me, 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.280 very delightful story with a lot of twists and turns. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:05.480 I love it. 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.640 It does not have I just want to say this, 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.160 like for the listener, it does not have one big 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:15.119 reveal at the end. So if you're like, please don't 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:17.800 listen to this episode like holding your breath waiting for 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.760 the moment when I tell you, and it was a dad, 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.800 because like, no, it is like a It is a 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:29.240 story with hoaxism. It is a story with hoaxification. It 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:32.840 is a story with hoaxicity around it. But it is 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.840 not the story of like one mastermind's long running hoax. 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:41.040 It's just like a lot of little hoaxisms in the air, 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:46.360 paxisms in the air, flim flammery, scamity, happening in multiple 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:48.920 directions over the course of a number of years. 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:50.880 I love it. It's a multi dimensional hoax. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.720 It's a multi dimensional hoax that I think will give 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.000 us a lot to talk about. But yeah, I just 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.240 didn't want I didn't want anyone to be disappointed going 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.120 into this thinking like when was the big twist. 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:02.800 That's a very generous disclaimer. 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:08.320 Yeah, okay, So we begin in old times, da Vinci times, 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.760 da Vinci times. We're talking the last quarter of the 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.639 fifteenth century and the first quarter of the sixteenth century, 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:19.359 mostly in Florence. Leonardo da Vinci. He's a painter. He's 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:25.000 also an inventor, a mathematician, a scientist. Famously drew Barrymore's 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.040 fairy godfather in the film Ever After, which of course 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:32.560 I believe is a documentary. A documentary, yeah, a historical object. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:38.400 We think of artists as being like very solitary, like 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:40.720 you know, girl with a pearl ear ring, or like 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.680 some guy you know in his room just painting by himself. 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.480 But that was not the case for da Vinci. He 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:51.040 was famous in his own time, and he was very revered, 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.480 and he had a studio, he had assistants, he had students, 0:02:55.639 --> 0:03:00.600 and they were known as the Leonardeschi or the Nordeski. 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.800 I guess, however you pronounced buscemi is how you should 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:04.959 pronounce this word. 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.160 Yeah, if we go out to dinner, I'll be absolutely insufferable, 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:10.800 is what the notice. 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:13.799 One of them might have been his lover, a guy 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.640 named Sali, who was sort of his protege and inherited 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.799 everything after da Vinci's death. 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:22.680 You know, his like male roommate, his like hot young 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:23.400 male roommate. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:27.280 Yeah, and they were roommates, their roommates there, roommates. 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:28.680 And he's like, is it this Like I kind of 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:30.160 remember in a book I read like there was one 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.800 like blonde guy that he would like paint into his portraits. 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:34.840 Yeah, I think that's him, Like, yeah, just you know 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.360 how you do for your friend his much younger friend, 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.240 who neither of them ever had a girlfriend so far. 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.160 Yeah, and they're painting each other all the time. 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.400 So in this workshop, they're making a lot of art 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.400 and it was not like one I mean, they weren't 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:49.880 using canvas at the time, but it was not like 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:52.800 one guy, one canvas. Yeah, it would be you know, 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:56.080 Da Vinci might do a sketch and then say, okay, 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.720 everybody do a painting based on this sketch, and we'll 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.840 sell all these paintings. Or he might do a sketch 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:05.760 and say, okay, you guys paint the background and then 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:07.360 I'm going to come in and paint the figures. 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:09.640 So like James Patterson writing a book. 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:14.200 Yes, exactly, like James Patterson writing a book, honest. Yeah, 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:18.000 or like how they finished the uh uh what you 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.920 might call it, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo books based 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:26.640 on like the outlines. Yeah, so authorship is already sort 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.440 of murky. But this is not like a plagiarism thing. 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.200 This is a known thing happening in Florence. This is 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.880 they're not trying to get one over on their patrons 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:35.400 doing this. 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.120 And it also feels like sometimes people have a misunderstanding 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.839 of what artists were back then, like they were providing 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:43.360 a service. Like they were. 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:48.080 Providing a service. And also like even today, art comes 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:51.360 very often comes out of a workshop. Yeah, and like 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.279 an artist might not have you know, when you look 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.479 at these like big artworks that are in museums, like 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.800 the Chris or whatever his name is, Like he didn't 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.320 hand put all those flags in by himself. Like I 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.760 people have artists work. Artists have people working for that. 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.520 I read the memoir written by the wife of the 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.000 artist Tom Sacks. He has a whole workshop. 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.040 Yeah, all of which is to say, there are a 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.440 number of works coming out of the da Vinci workshop 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:25.080 that da Vinci himself has only contributed to in the 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:31.400 conception of them, or perhaps doing touch ups in like 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.680 movie parlance. Maybe he was like the executive producer. 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.080 Yeah, And I'm sure it drives historians crazy because it's 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:39.400 like we don't know if this is one that he 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:41.560 just like thought of the idea of, or if this 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:43.680 is like I'll do the figures exactly. 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:49.360 And today only ones that are called actually autographs, which 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.920 is by master's own hand, are really like worth very much, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.320 and there aren't very many of them. 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.400 I'm gonna guess eight eleven. 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.760 More fifteen, all right, there are fifteen more or less 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.240 confirmed da Vinci paintings, and there's a lot more da 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:08.200 Vinci's stuff out there. He had a lot of notebooks 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:12.640 and drawings, and he also maybe had like raging adhd 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.520 because there's a lot of like half finished works and 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.479 plans for stuff that he never got around to making, 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:23.200 which fair enough can go off relatable. And in the 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.960 second half of his career sort of the end of 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:28.920 his life, around the time that he's painting the Mona, 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.680 Lisa heard of it, heard of it, which took him 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.160 like over ten years, which I didn't realize. There is 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.599 reason to believe for reasons that are honestly kind of boring, 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.360 but which we can get into, that he painted a 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:46.359 Salvador Mondi, which, much like Madonna and Child is like 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.880 a type of art. Yeah, so if you didn't grow 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:55.560 up studying Catholic art, which we didn't, where he did not, 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.560 a Salvador Mundy, which is I think a Latin for 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:04.240 Savior of the World, is an art work that depicts 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:08.920 Jesus with one hand raised in blessing and the other 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:13.840 holding some kind of orb representing the world, and you 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:21.200 can have like a figurine that is this like yes, yes, yes, 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.560 or you can have a painting. And there are a 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.520 bunch of this iconography that comes out of the da 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.960 Vinci workshop that are by all of his sort of 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.800 like proteges and assistants that have Jesus basically wearing like 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:40.560 the same outfit. And there is a engraving made about 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.720 one hundred years after Da Vinci's death by a guy 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:48.560 named Wincessless Holler that purports to be an engraving made 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:53.040 of the original that was painted by Da Vinci. So 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.640 there's a lot of scholarship that says, maybe there's an 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.880 original da Vinci painting somewhere in the world. 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.640 Sure, because so many of his workshop people were copying 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:03.280 something presumably. 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.360 Yes, copying something that he did. But it's also possible 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.280 that he just like and there are studies like sketches 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.000 that he made sort of in preparation to maybe paint 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:14.960 one of these things. But it's also possible that he 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.880 just made like a sketch that then everybody copied, or 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.720 some other secret third thing. We don't know for sure. Yeah, 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:26.640 so that is just information background on da Vinci. He 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:31.840 died in fifteen nineteen. Okay, cut to five hundred years 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:36.040 later in New Orleans. A businessman dies and an auction 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.600 house takes a look at his art collection that he 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.640 had inherited from his aunt, and they say, okay, great, 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.200 here's all the stuff that we will take. And we 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:48.000 don't want that ugly Jesus painting that's in your hallway. Goodbye. 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.720 And so the Jesus painting and all his other random 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.080 paintings goes to like the local antique store and they 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.200 just throw it up online, like just for auction for 0:08:58.280 --> 0:08:59.120 not very much money. 0:08:59.240 --> 0:08:59.800 Oh my god. 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:01.760 And it's not a very good looking painting. It's been 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:05.280 like varnished and painted over a bunch. It does not 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:05.719 look good. 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.440 So it looks like super muddy, yeah, and just kind 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:09.920 of like blotchy. 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:11.360 You can look it up. I'm not even going to 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.840 show it as part of our conversation, like not a 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:19.320 cool looking painting. But Robert Simon and Alexander Parrish, who 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.480 are both sort of medium time art dealers, see it 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:27.000 for sale online and they're like, this painting is ugly 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.800 and it's been overpainted, but it's kind of interesting. It 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:34.400 looks like one of those Salvador mundy copies that were 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:39.800 so popular in fifteen hundred Italy, Like it's like really cheap, 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.880 so let's just buy it. It's a little bit unclear 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:45.480 how much they paid for it, because they then say 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.320 that they paid like twelve hundred bucks for it, but 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.439 then other sources say that they paid under ten thousand 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:53.640 for it, which seems like a really. 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.080 Weird Like I guess, technically. 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:00.319 Yeah, like that's not that is under ten thousand, but that. 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.360 Even seems expensive for like a random auction website. But 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:05.480 I guess if it's like a nice old painting, yeah, 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:06.440 I don't really know. 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:10.600 But then and they also don't really get into this, 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.280 but they also might have had other people helping them 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.480 buy it besides the two of them. But they're gonna 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:18.679 need to raise some more money anyway, because they're about 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:23.200 to hire an art restorer. So already the waters are 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.480 about to get murky on exactly where the money is 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:29.680 coming from around this painting. But in any case, they 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:34.200 in a rather casual, not making a big deal way, 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.160 they buy it, and they basically just get it like 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.240 FedEx to New York, and they hand it over to 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.360 a woman named Diane Modestini and Modestini is a very 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.839 well respected art restorer. She lives in New York with 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.440 her husband, who is also a very well respected art restorer. 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.360 He's a bit older than her. He's ninety eight, and 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:56.200 oh the shit, I think she's in her maybe twenties. No, 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.200 she's like her sixties at that point, maybe in her 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.880 seventies now. But he's very old and he's in very 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:02.439 ill health. 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:04.480 Well he's ninety eight, yes. 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.679 I mean, I don't know. Dick Van Dyke's like fucking balls. 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:10.720 Let's he's tap dancing on tables and stuff. 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.280 So she cleans up the painting a little bit and 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.599 she shows it to her husband, and her husband's like, 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:21.640 I don't know who did this painting, but there's something 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:22.440 about this painting. 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.400 Oh so he's ninety eight, but he's still on the ball. 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.440 Well this is the thing. Not much, but this painting 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:29.839 like awakens something in him. He's like, I don't have 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.640 reactions to a lot of paintings, but I have got 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:34.920 I got I got some feeling about this painting. 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:35.480 Hmmm. 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:37.839 I'm gonna pause here for just a minute to talk 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.600 about a couple things that are going on right before 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.400 and right after the moment that we're in. Okay, so 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.719 we're in two thousand and five. In two thousand and three, 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.480 the book The da Vinci Code comes out. Yes, so 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.760 Da Vinci already basically the most famous painter in the 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.280 world after The Da Vinci Code, I would say, inarguably 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:00.920 the most famous painter in the world. Like, no one's 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.200 hunting for codes in Michaelangelo. 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.599 That's not true because really have you read from the 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.320 mixed up files of Missus Beazoli Frank Weiler? Well, yes, 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:09.120 people are looking for. 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:12.960 But that's just one thing. 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.240 Take it back Lesslie Logan. Okay, Michael he's he's a 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:20.920 top Okay, he's a top three code hunting code hunting artist. 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:22.679 Okay, take it back and take it back and take 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.839 it back. But I will say in two thousand and five, 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.439 Da Vinci still people are. People have Da Vinci on 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:28.719 the break. 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.000 Yeah, mixed up files is old news. Da Vinci Code 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:31.959 is the hot young thing. 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.360 Da Vinci Code is big. In two thousand and six, 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.840 the movie The DaVinci Code is about to come out. Yeah, 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.959 so people are really feeling Da Vinci fever has gripped 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:43.160 the nation. DaVinci mania. 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:43.640 Yeah. 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.200 And also shortly after all of this is happening, mister 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:54.240 Modestini does die ow rip rip. So this is pure speculation, 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.600 but I think it is notable to keep in mind 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:03.199 going forward. This painting is one of the last that 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:08.880 the Modestinis look at together, and after they look at it, 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:14.200 Diane is sitting in her home alone for many years 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:16.599 working on this painting. I don't know if she's a 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.160 religious woman, but it is a painting of Jesus. Yeah, 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.120 and she's thinking about her dead husband. So if she 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:27.800 forms a rather intense connection to the painting, perhaps that's 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.400 why that's just my speculation. It's a good interpretation, it's 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.800 just my speculation. Well, while she's working on the painting, 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.760 Diane notices two things. First, it's called a pentimento, which 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.079 means a first thought, and that is when there is 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.120 like another version of the art under the art. So 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:50.280 she notices that Jesus's thumb, there's two thumbs. So you 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.719 wouldn't necessarily find that in a copy, because if you're 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.920 just copying someone's artwork, wouldn't you just already know how 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:58.360 the composition is going to look. 0:13:58.480 --> 0:13:59.800 Yeah, why would you mess up the thumb? 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.920 Why would you change your mind? So that sort of 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:08.439 points to maybe this is an original by somebody and 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.680 the other thing she notices. She's like, Okay, I'm trying 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.040 to touch up the mouth and I can't. Like this 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:21.120 shading is so perfect and I can't. Like it's blowing 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:24.240 my mind. How it just like that there's something about it. 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:26.080 Where have I seen this before? Where have I seen 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.480 this before? And she's like, I've only ever seen this 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:32.320 mouth on one other painting, the Mona Lisa. And so 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.200 she like goes to her art book and she like 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:36.160 rips out a picture of the Mona Lisa, and she 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:37.640 like puts the two maus next to each other, and 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:43.040 she's like, this painting is by DaVinci. Ah, it's got 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:47.040 to be a DaVinci. While this is happening, the men 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:50.000 who bought it are also looking into the painting's provenance, 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.480 because of course that's like kind of beyond just giving 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:55.880 your opinion, kind of the more legit way you established 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.240 who did a painting is like where did it come from? Yeah, 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:04.440 they really figure it out. They track it back to 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:10.480 like the fifties, and then they find a painting that 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:14.560 they think is the painting being logged in like that 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.600 the King Charles's would have had. So there's like the 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.920 painting goes sort of in and out of history, but. 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.360 They're not even sure that where it's out is the 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:25.080 same painting. 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.560 Well, I mean because they didn't have photographs back then, 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.960 so like it's a description of a painting that seems 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.080 to be the painting, but like, can you say for 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.000 sure it's like picture of Jesus by da Vinci. 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.920 And also salvageremunities were like a popular piece of iconography. 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.520 Yeah, and like da Vinci is spelled different, but like 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:47.480 what does that mean? I don't know. 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:48.240 Yeah, I don't know. 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.840 I don't know. So around two thousand and eight they 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.160 call the National Gallery in London and because the National 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.520 Gallery has a confirmed original da Vinci, and they're like, 0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:59.760 we should put them next to each other, see see 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.800 what what? And they're like, hey, we have an original 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.000 da Vinci And the National Gallery is like, do you 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.320 know how many fucking phone calls we get every week 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:10.440 from people who think they found original. 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:12.560 Page, especially after the Da Vinci codes. 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.480 Especially after the Da Vinci code and people watch Antiques 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.120 Road Show. Yeah, and they're like no, no, no, let 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.040 me send you a picture like this is the mouth. 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:21.160 The mouth is really good. 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:25.640 Yeah, and they're like, Okay, this really looks kind of good. 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:27.520 So let's say, send me the painting. Send me the painting. 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:32.360 And Luke Sison, who is a curator there. He is 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.640 sort of a hot shot. He maybe is itching for 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:36.960 a discovery, the bad boy of the art world, maybe 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.560 a little bit, maybe a bad boy of the masters, 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.920 the old masters. Do you know him? 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:43.760 No, I just love the idea that there is someone 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:45.960 who people would consider the bad boy of the art world. 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.480 I remember when I was in high school, I used 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.160 to be a ticket taker at like an outdoor concert 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.200 venue where the Chicago's New York Istras sometimes played, and 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:57.800 there was like a monthly magazine that was like, you know, 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:00.400 for the venue, and it feels like every month there 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.280 was always a cover of a guy in like a scarf, 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:04.119 and it would always be like the bad boy of Opera. 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:09.280 I'm just picturing Darren Aronofsky in that photo that people 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:12.520 were like, he plays a drama teacher on Disney Channel 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:13.359 who called mister z. 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.640 Yeah, and that's who I'm picturing for this curator. 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.080 He doesn't he looks like a normal English guy, but 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:20.119 you could picture him. 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:22.200 Darren Aronofscanda Scarf great. 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.679 I also, way later on Jerry Saltz will get involved 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:28.600 in this, who is not a bad boy, but he 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.000 is sort of the like enfan. He's very much the 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.879 enfan trebe or. He's the like he's the fuck you 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:40.640 man of the unbuilt of the artwork. He's the stand up. 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.040 Comedian, the podcaster. 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:48.360 Maybe a little bit yeah, he's the like unwoke Austin comedian. 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:49.879 He's also not wrong about this painting. 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:51.440 But I can't wait. Okay, keep going. 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.879 So they send us at the National Gallery and Luke Syson, 0:17:55.960 --> 0:18:00.440 who is a curator there, he calls up some exts, 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:02.920 a few from America, ifew from Britain, a few from Italy, 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:05.720 and he is like, okay, let's have them all look 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.119 at the painting and we'll just have a conversation about it. 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.560 And very crucially, I think he doesn't want them to 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:14.359 say yes or no. And I think that's because he 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.800 doesn't want them to say no yeah, And if you 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:18.960 don't ask the question, you can't get an answer. But 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.359 I also think, like what would a yes or no? 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:23.480 Even like he just wants them to have a conversation, Like. 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.159 I think this is fine, even just having a conversation, though, 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.879 is like he's trying to raise controversy and attention because 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:33.080 even by saying is this picture by da Vinci, you're 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:34.639 implying that it might be by da Vinci. 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:37.520 What he's saying is, what do you think of this picture? 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:37.919 Okay? 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.080 So he invites people to come look at the painting 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:42.920 and give their thoughts. And before I tell you what 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:44.280 their thoughts are, I thought this would be a good 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:45.920 time for us to look at the painting, yeah, and 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:46.600 give our thoughts. 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.680 I would love to. Okay, I'm looking at a restored 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.800 version of the painting. It's nice. I think the blue 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:57.680 is Jesus is wearing like a blue robe shirt and 0:18:57.760 --> 0:18:59.160 that looks really nice. Yeah. 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.360 So what you have on the left is the painting 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:07.400 cleaned up, so all of the over painting has been 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.960 taken off, and all of the varnish has been taken off, 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:14.080 and you can see painting from the old times and 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:16.040 also a lot of damage. 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:16.520 Yeah. 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.199 And then on the right is like plus a lot 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:24.200 of painting by Diane Motustini, and it will continue to 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.840 get even more painted by Diane Modostini over the years. 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:30.600 She continues kind of like fucking with it, but just 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.359 tell us, tell the listener what you see and what 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:33.840 you think. 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:39.840 It's Jesus with some really nice long brown curls, holding 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.840 up two fingers, you know, in a sort of you know, blessing, 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.479 and then in his other hand is either holding I mean, 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:49.399 it looks like a nothing like it looks like a 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:51.440 clear glass orb. And I don't know if it was 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.040 because someone was going to paint a globe there or not, 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.240 or they just wanted a clear thing. He's holding like 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.640 a clear blob in his other hand, and he's wearing 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:01.800 a nice blue robe. 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.400 Okay, lovely. So I am going to just point out 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.040 some things that a person can see with the naked eye. 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:09.399 Okay. 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.560 So the first is that Jesus is looking at you 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.800 straight on and sort of facing the viewer, and that 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:20.040 would have been very atypical for da Vinci. He liked 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.960 to paint figures in a much more dynamic style. So 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:26.640 the Mona Lisa is famously at like a three quarter 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.480 turn and then she's sort of looking over her shoulder 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.320 at the viewer. So a lot of people immediately upon 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.040 seeing this were like da Vinci would never choose such 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:36.560 a boring composition. 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:38.720