WEBVTT - Star Wars: The Bad Batch S2 Eps 1-4 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.680 Who better to understand art than the artists themselves. Each week, 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:08.880 the Talk House Podcast pairs musicians, filmmakers, and other creative 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.080 minds for illuminating one on one conversations that touch on 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:15.000 everything from the mechanics of music making to their favorite 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.320 candy bar to their social and emotional wellbeing. You never 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:20.520 know where these chats are going to go, but it's 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.920 always somewhere these artists haven't gone before. Listener favorites from 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.360 the past few seasons include Jeff Tweety from Wilco with 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.479 Abby Jacobson from Broad City, Guierramo del Toro from many 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:36.160 many movies including Pinocchio with William Friedkin of Exorcist fame 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.640 and Kim Deal of the nineties, Grunjack the Breeders with 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:45.640 Courtney Barnett, indie rock artist. Every week has a new pairing, 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.240 so subscribe to The Talk House Podcast in your favorite 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:53.520 platform today. Before we start the episode, wanted to share 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:57.240 some tragic news. Brian Vasquez, the composer of our theme 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.480 music and our interstitial music, as well as the theme 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.600 for my show Takeline and for other cricket properties like 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.120 Dare We Say, passed away earlier this week with his 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:07.639 friends and his family around him. 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:12.160 As you may know, Brian was diagnosed with leukemia in November. 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:13.800 We mentioned it on the show at the time with 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.479 the link to the go fundme supporting Brian's medical costs, 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.959 which many of you kindly contributed to, and we're very 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:20.640 grateful for that. 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.760 Here on x Ray, we won't forget Brian's contributions to 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:28.000 the show. His generosity, is amazing talent, his positive attitude, 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.039 and of course through his music. He'll always be a 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.000 part of the show. Is a joy to work with, 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.360 as anyone who had the opportunity to collaborate with him. 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:40.839 Contest warning, this podcast contains spoilers for the first four 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:46.000 episodes of The Bad Batch Season two. 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:55.040 Hello. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.840 My name is Jason Concepcion and I'm Rosie Nike and 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.040 welcome to x Vision, the Crooked Media podcast where we 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:08.560 dived into your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture. 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.480 In this episode. In the previously on, we're gonna be 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.560 talking about that VFX union that simmering in Hollywood. 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:16.360 Let's go, let's go. 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.960 It's time to happen some very interesting parallels with the 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.440 comic book union struggles. We're gonna be talking more about 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.760 the AI Art conversation with a very interesting and quite 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.000 unexpected update in the airlock, we're gonna be catching up 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.000 on a Bad Batch season two. I know our discord 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.440 is excited. It's gonna be episodes one to four. There's 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.320 a lot of fun, weird stuff in there. And in 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.320 the nerd out Rodney pictures us on a secret invasion 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.079 scroll theory that I am actually shocked we hadn't already 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:44.960 thought about. So we're gonna be talking about this. 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:48.000 Oh yeah, I think it's a good one coming up. 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:52.519 Let's get into the previously on Okay, first up. As 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:57.320 reported by Vulture January thirteenth, twenty twenty three, story written 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.360 by Chris Lee, VFX workers. 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:01.640 In the movie industry. 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.520 I wanted to say Hollywood, but I think an important 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.360 wrinkle in this story and the issues herein is that 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.680 it's global. There's often no physical proximity of these workers 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:15.160 to the places where these movies are made. They're all 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.919 over the world. So essentially, these workers all across the 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.720 globe are talking about forming an union. Here's a quote 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.800 from the piece. Talk to any VFX artists or tech 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.720 working in modern Hollywood, and certain complaints come up over 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.040 and over again, the punishing deadlines, the grueling work hours, 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.880 too few workers charged with too much work underpayment, and 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:38.400 systematic quote pixel fucking, an industry phrase used to describe 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.200 the behavior of nippicking clients who lack the VFX knowledge 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.840 to communicate their needs. I think that that last bit 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:48.720 is an important part of this. This is an incredibly 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:55.160 skill based, tech based, obviously specialized field, and I think 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.600 it seems like magic if you're not directly involved in 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:00.760 creating this stuff. Yes, and I think it can be 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:02.760 very easy to say, well, can't you just like make 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.839 the fir move when you don't know what the hell 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.680 you're talking about. And the end result of this is 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.840 artists being put through the ringer to create stuff. And 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:16.839 the MCU Marvel is front and center of this just 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:18.599 because of the weight of the footprint that they have 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:19.320 in the space. 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.280 Yes, this whole article is just full of brilliant reporting, 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:25.919 but there are some unbelievable numbers in this article about 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.880 how you know, in the era of a kind of 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.160 like an industrialits and magic, Like just post the original 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:34.839 Star Wars, you're talking about like ten percent of all 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:39.200 movies that would have any kind of CG post production 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.120 and now it's ninety percent yeah right, And not just that, 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.200 but places like Marvel, which you know, this was something 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:49.920 we spoke about this topic before in summer last year, 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:54.800 when this massive amount of stories, Reddit threads, tweets came 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.599 out about the way that Marvel had been treating people 0:04:57.640 --> 0:04:59.839 in post production houses. And one of the biggest complaints 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:03.680 that come up against here is one of the ironically 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.400 comes from one of the best things that Marvel does, 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:10.240 which is where they take an under represented or newer 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.799 director who has maybe only made a few indie movies 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:19.239 Chloe Jao Tyker, Ryan Coogler, and then there doesn't seem 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:24.000 to be a good go between between that director, the studio, 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.000 and the VFX. So one of the things that they 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.400 get into quite detailed here, which is just shocking, is 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:34.200 this kind of having to rewrite the entire end of 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.039 the movie a month before they're meant to be done, 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.039 and then they're having to rebuild from scratch because a 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:45.000 lot of times they'll just say this happens instead, and 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:46.880 then you have an artist who has to craft that 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.200 entire thing. There is also a number in here, I 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.919 believe where and this one is really painful when you 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.360 think about how much money these movies make. I believe 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.680 they said that they did a survey of payment of 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:00.880 people who worked in these fields. One of them, the 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.000 lowest pay that they found was like seventeen dollars and 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:08.840 thirty four cents an hour, which is just absolutely nightmarish 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:10.880 for these eighteen hour days. You know that you have 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.719 to work to be able to finish this movie that 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.440 is going to make a billion dollars. So I'm really 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:20.760 glad that there's kind of this voracious quest for unionization. 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:22.880 But the thing that I find really interesting from reading 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:24.919 this article that kind of blew my mind. I didn't 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.440 really realize how similar the problem is. As you kind 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.120 of very astutely pointed out, Jason, the lack of a 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.440 physical space that all of these people work in. It's 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:36.280 not a warehouse, it's not. 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:37.800 An office, makes it harder. 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:43.000 Yeah, there are twelve, fifteen, sixteen, eighteen twenty houses sometimes 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.640 all around the world working on this. And the biggest 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.040 similarity to comics, a lot of people who do this 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:53.520 job are freelancers. It is incredibly hard to unionize as freelancers. 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.479 That is what for a long time has kept comics 0:06:57.120 --> 0:06:59.520 so hard to unionize because when you write a comic 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.479 book for work for hire, you are not an employee. 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:04.440 You may be an editor who is an employee who 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:06.520 perhaps writes a story, but in general you are hired 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.320 work hire. You are not an employee. You don't get benefits, 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:11.960 you don't really have any employment rights. You are just 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.840 hired for that one thing. And that is very much 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:18.680 in the same scope as what the VFX space is 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:22.040 struggling with. I'm very interested to see where this goes, 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.160 because a lot of times all you need is the 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:27.880 one place to do it, and that's something they talk about. 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:29.000 Here Break the Seal. 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.680 You know, we had talked about Image comics unionizing, right 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.400 and how the inside the company workers had tried to 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.280 start a union that was not voluntarily recognized. Very ironic. 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.920 But the takeaway from this article that some people have 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.320 in the piece is kind of that hopefully one house 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:51.200 will unionize, one space, one company, the people within it 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.560 will unionize, and then from there that can be the 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:57.120 start of a bigger union, which I think is what 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:59.200 everyone hopes for for comics too. Yeah, this was just 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.720 such a great reason and I'm very interested. The wildest 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.400 thing is like if there was a strike and obviously 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:08.520 it'll be like a wildcat strike because there's not a union. 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:11.200 But like if there was a strike, I mean movies 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.400 would that would just the industry would come to a standstill. 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.240 I Mean the issue is, as you noted, is the 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:21.760 kind of diffuse nature of the VFX industry. Various houses, 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.400 they're all around the world. How do you get them 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.800 to strike as one because what would happen? You know, 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:32.040 the threat is significantly lessened when a producer, a platform 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:33.880 whoever can just say, Okay, well you're not going to 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:35.280 do it, I'm going to go over to this other place. 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.640 And so that's why these issues are very important, and 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.679 it's also an outgrowth. I see this as very related 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.520 to the issue of crunch in the video game space. Yes, 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:49.400 crunch being the kind of like culturally accepted portion of 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:53.520 the production schedule of a video game during which it 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.240 is expected that employees essentially live at the fucking office 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.400 and kill themselves to make this game go gold. Now, 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:04.440 significant difference being oftentimes with crunch and with video game production, 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.080 you do have employees all in the same place, and 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:11.960 there is I think, contra the Hollywood and television, there 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:16.000 is from the leadership in video games a keen understanding 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:20.319 of the work and the type of work that goes 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:21.760 into creating the game. 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:23.680 So and I will also say that there was a 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:28.160 huge and very widespread movement by the Game Workers Union 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.319 to start union that really did like spark off some 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.520 change there. So that's kind of what I feel like 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.199 could happen here hopefully. 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.720 I think in general, just this conversation, the fact that 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:45.920 it's happening out in public, the fact that VFX workers 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:49.959 are having their voices heard about the issues that impact them, 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:53.760 it's really positive. And if the end result of this is, 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.960 you know, a wing of IATZI for VFX workers or 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.680 the like, then I think that we've made a big step. Listen, 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:05.199 the rest of Hollywood is extremely unionized, the directors, the producers, 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.240 the writers. I'm a member of the writers guilds. Yeah, 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:09.160 that's how I get my other churance. You know, It's 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:13.760 like you see the benefits of it, and it just 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:18.080 makes sense to me that this extremely integral piece of 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.120 the machinery should also you knowze just as the rest 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:21.560 of them have. 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.800 I totally agree. And it seems shocking, like it says 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.000 in this article multiple times, like you'll speak to like 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.760 a camera operator and some and you'll tell them you're 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.040 not unionized, and they're like, what the fuck, Like, how 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:33.079 are you not unionized? 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:34.079 What the fuck? Yeah? 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:37.160 Yeah, I think that I have to say. And look, 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:39.920 people listen to the podcast. They know what we talk about, 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:41.640 they know what we read. I have a copy of 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.160 Uncanny X Men one eighty five behind me, you know, 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.520 Storm without her Powers. But I think there is a 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:51.840 direct line here between the way that Marvel and y C. 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:53.719 But let's talk about Marvel because that's what we're talking 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.840 about have always treated creators and the rights of the 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.480 artists who have made this work for them. Direct line 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.320 from that to how little they value the creators who 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.079 are now making these movies for them. And I hope 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.400 that with the current lawsuits with the heirs of some 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.760 of the biggest superhero characters, including like the heirs of 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:18.960 Steve Ditko for Spider Man, and the upcoming potential reversion 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.520 of rights that that lawsuit could have alongside this potential 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:26.200 VFX union, I would love to see a shift and 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.840 a change in that corporate culture that could finally maybe 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:36.079 start to put the rights and the proper capital and 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.559 ownership and also just compensation back in the hands of 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:41.800 the people who make these stories possible, whether it's comic 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:46.640 book creators or VFX artists, who nowadays are equally important 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:47.640 to those stories. 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.600 I actually do see them as significantly different issues. The 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:57.880 work for hire creators who created Batman, Superman, the X Men, etc. 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.560 Not getting their do I think is a very specific 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:05.000 and sad issue that has been addressed in dribs and drabs. 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.400 You know, Marvel and DC both give royalties now, et cetera, 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.400 Like there is a bonus paid when a created character 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:12.240 goes into a. 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.840 Movie sometimes sometimes let's say, very minimal. 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:19.880 The VFX workers, while it is a creative job, are 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:24.120 to me more like the grips and the lighting people 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.680 in that they're doing a mechanical thing, not just like 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.079 following a flight of fancy to be like, oh, I'm 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.760 going to make this character's costume exactly the way that 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.560 I want, Like they're following a set order of things 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:39.520 that have kind of passed down from the creators. At 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.600 the same time, they are integral to the process. And 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.520 I think that part of we're going to talk about 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.280 the AI art class action lawsuit right after this. I 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.480 think that broadly there is something that is not talked 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.440 about enough when it comes to these kind of like 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.360 tech based worker issues, and it affects the consumers as well. 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.680 And it's that things change so quickly in tech. The 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.280 way that we make movies now, with the volume and 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.360 et cetera, it's completely different, even though like your computer 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.360 graphics have been around for thirty plus years is completely 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.920 different than the we're making movies ten years ago, twenty 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:19.800 years ago, et cetera. Yeah, and so there is I 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:25.520 think often an ease of disconnect between the older generation 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:29.800 of producer, creator, whoever that has been working in the 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.679 space and the younger people, more tech savvy people who 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.640 are coming up. It's just the worlds are so different 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.640 that they operate in that it's very easy and almost 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:41.760 financially incentivized. 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.720 To just like not really know what they do. And 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:45.839 that actually causes a. 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.960 Big problem that That's one of the things that comes 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.559 up time and time again in this conversation is if 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.280 you have a director or a producer who doesn't really 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.000 understand the nature of the work, yes, then it's easy 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:57.600 for them to come to you three weeks before the 0:13:57.640 --> 0:13:59.280 movie's meant to be done and say, hey, I need 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.719 you to redo that like completely, and I don't really 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.320 have a visualization for it. This just needs to happen. 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.560 It's very like you said that disconnect makes it easy 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:14.160 to push that work onto people without necessarily thinking about 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:16.439 how much time or if it takes. And I also 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.679 think that, like you said, that there's a lack of 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.520 knowledge and education, maybe purposefully, but about how those changes 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.080 are happening. I was incredibly shocked to find out that 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.040 Victoria Alonso, who's done so much brilliant work at Marvel, 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:30.040 I was very shocked to find out that she's the 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.960 head of post production space in that company. That is 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.040 a job that I would assume you would have somebody 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.560 who worked in post production doing so they could be 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:43.040 that person between the two. You can be that middleman 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.320 who make sure that the people know, the directors know 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.160 what is needed, and the VFX people know what is needed. 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.480 So I think there's that disconnect is a huge problem, 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.800 and hopefully a union would be able to at least 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:55.760 bridge that a little bit. 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.240 I mean, use the leverage and the weight that they have, 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:03.440 hopefully for good, in order to have the workers' issues heard, 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:08.080 and certainly not create a thing where people are working 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:12.240 around the clock in order to make a movie or 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.440 TV show happen. One of the people I work with, 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.800 Peter Murrietta, who created Which There's a Waverley Place, He 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.520 always says there's no such thing as a television emergency. 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.200 I would say that the same thing is true for movies. 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:27.280 While people you know, it's good to work hard, and 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.360 sometimes you need to put in a twelve hour day, 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:31.200 we get it, but. 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.280 They say, I'm regular eighteen nowadays. 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:37.000 But there should be no situation in which people are like, 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.720 are just grilling themselves in order to make a fucking 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:41.840 Avengers movie come out. 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.000 I love Avengers movies, but like, come on, Okay. 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.080 The AI class action lawsuit, We've been talking about it. 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.040 The Internet has been talking about the leaps and bounds 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.880 by which creative AI, whether it's Chat, GBT and the 0:15:55.880 --> 0:16:02.480 written word, or the various AI art engines Stability, AI, 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.760 Stable Diffusion, etc. Have been kind of reshaping the creative space, 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.480 and now a selection of artists have filed the class 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.440 action suit against the AI Company's mid Journey, who makes 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.000 Stable Diffusion, as well as DV and Art, who they 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:21.440 allege allowed these AI engines to kind of like scrape 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:26.680 their platform of art without informing the artists who post 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.960 there have filed a class action lawsuit. From a Polygon 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:35.200 article from January seventeenth, written by Nicole Clark, quote, the 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.400 pseudoledges that these companies violated the rights of millions of 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.960 artists by using billions of Internet images to train its 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.920 AI art tool without the consent of artists, without compensating 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.320 any of those artists. These companies benefit commercially and profit 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.120 richly from the use of copyright images, the pseudo ledges quote. 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.360 The harm to artists is not hypothetical, the suit says, 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.720 noting that the works created by Generative AI art are 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.800 quote already sold on the Internet, siphoning commissions from the 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:04.080 art artists themselves. We talked about this briefly. I've been 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.960 surprised that there haven't been more class action suits, but 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.960 I think this piece takes that on, saying that it's 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:15.639 most of the experts, while kind of split on whether 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.640 what Stability or mid Journey are doing are actually illegal, 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.480 do agree that depending on how this class action. 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.200 Suit goes, there will surely surely be others. 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.560 And the good thing about class action lawsuits anyone can 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.840 just jump on once it's out there, you know. Yeah, 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:33.600 and this is a big deal because there's actually like, 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.119 these are like high profile people. I'd actually read a 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.199 really great article written by Sarah Anderson, who makes the 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.080 webcomics Sarah Scribbles, which if you don't immediately know it 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.760 by name, you will immediately recognize it if you see it, 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.679 and she'd written about how people had taken what were 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.480 essentially like her diary comics and put them into this 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:53.800 AI and were already replicating them. And so these are 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.480 quite big name people. One of the other names on 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:01.080 this is like an illustrator has done stuff for Marvel, 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.439 like the film studios and for Wizards of the Coast, 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:05.960 So I think that helps as well, having like three 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:08.040 high profile people who are willing to put their name 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.680 to it. And the filing is wild. They found forty 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:17.760 pages of alleged copyright infringements and stuff and different ways 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.200 that the AI was infringing on people's rights. So I'm 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.040 very interested to see where this goes. I think this 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.400 is good. I think that, as a lot of people 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:26.399 have pointed out, this could be the moment when it 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.040 goes from like a Napster type thing to a Spotify. 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.560 You know, this could be that turning point where people 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:33.800 find a way of doing it. I hope it ends 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.840 up being more financially viable for artists than spotifyers. Yeah, 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.240 but yeah, I think this is probably an interesting thing 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.120 that we should definitely be keeping our eyes on. Yeah. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.040 I think that, you know, who knows. There is some 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:50.960 interesting conversation in a Verge piece written by James Vincent 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:56.240 about this that kind of tries to dissect issues regarding 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.880 fear use of this art and whether training in AI 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:05.480 is fair use versus whether using that training to create 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.479 content is fair use. I think there's that's really going 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:10.760 to be where the rubber meets the road, zooming out, 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.520 because who knows how that's going to go. I think 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:20.440 one of my concerns with this is that AI art 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.320 and the way it's trained AI art and the text 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:27.480 generation AIS, the way they're trained, it seems to bring 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:31.240 us back to like an earlier form of wealth creation 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.000 that was based on I get richer by taking your shit. 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:37.320 You can. 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:41.520 Whatever criticisms we all have of capitalism and neoliberalism and 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.280 the way it exploits the workers. 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.120 Yeah, it's like we had autistic feudalism. It's like I'm 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.240 taking your shit post the mid nineteenth century. The basic 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.240 thesis is like, okay, like you give us your time 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.680 by working in the factory, and you make a little 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.240 bit more money so that you can buy some conveniences 0:19:58.280 --> 0:19:59.760 that make your life easier. 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.000 Meanwhile, the rich get richer. Okay. 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.160 The AI era is you have done all this really 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:09.919 really hard work for decades and we're just gonna take it, 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:12.720 and we're gonna fucking take it, and that's how we're 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:14.400 gonna build the value of our company. 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:16.359 And that is really troubling. 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:18.560 I think you're absolutely right. I think that's the most 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:20.560 worrying thing. And I also think that's something that a 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.119 lot of people seem to have missed in these conversations, 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:27.320 is like, yeah, mid Journey is scraping from billions of 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.360 images or millions of images, whatever they say, and that 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.280 you can make the argument that that makes it harder 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:36.439 to compensate people or to give people credit. Right, But 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:42.600 I've seen multiple examples of people who are using these 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.440 generators or generators that use this r and just feeding 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:50.000 one person's art in feeding fifty images of that person's 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.639 are and then just plagiarizing that pep of persons are 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.480 But saying they created it, And yeah, so I think 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.720 you're spot on, and I think there's numerous different issues 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.640 with this, one of which is that it devalues the 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.760 work of artists and not just like it's really weird 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:07.520 how all this stuff is kind of tied in because 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:10.560 something people will be like, well, you know that VFX 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.120 artist who is earning seventeen dollars an hour, Well, that's 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.080 just they're doing their job and that's what the job's 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.399 valued at. But no, because when you do a job, 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.040 you're really being paid for all the work that went 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:22.080 into it, or the way, the time that you have 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:24.480 to spend to do it, or the rigamarole that it 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:26.680 takes on your body. Like there's all these different things. 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:28.680 And as an artist, when you do a commission, when 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:30.800