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Speaker 2: As you may know, Brian was diagnosed with leukemia in November.
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Speaker 1: Here on x Ray, we won't forget Brian's contributions to
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Speaker 1: as anyone who had the opportunity to collaborate with him.
Speaker 1: Contest warning, this podcast contains spoilers for the first four
Speaker 1: episodes of The Bad Batch Season two.
Speaker 3: Hello.
Speaker 1: My name is Jason Concepcion and I'm Rosie Nike and
Speaker 1: welcome to x Vision, the Crooked Media podcast where we
Speaker 1: dived into your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture.
Speaker 2: In this episode. In the previously on, we're gonna be
Speaker 2: talking about that VFX union that simmering in Hollywood.
Speaker 3: Let's go, let's go.
Speaker 2: It's time to happen some very interesting parallels with the
Speaker 2: comic book union struggles. We're gonna be talking more about
Speaker 2: the AI Art conversation with a very interesting and quite
Speaker 2: unexpected update in the airlock, we're gonna be catching up
Speaker 2: on a Bad Batch season two. I know our discord
Speaker 2: is excited. It's gonna be episodes one to four. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of fun, weird stuff in there. And in
Speaker 2: the nerd out Rodney pictures us on a secret invasion
Speaker 2: scroll theory that I am actually shocked we hadn't already
Speaker 2: thought about. So we're gonna be talking about this.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think it's a good one coming up.
Speaker 1: Let's get into the previously on Okay, first up. As
Speaker 1: reported by Vulture January thirteenth, twenty twenty three, story written
Speaker 1: by Chris Lee, VFX workers.
Speaker 3: In the movie industry.
Speaker 1: I wanted to say Hollywood, but I think an important
Speaker 1: wrinkle in this story and the issues herein is that
Speaker 1: it's global. There's often no physical proximity of these workers
Speaker 1: to the places where these movies are made. They're all
Speaker 1: over the world. So essentially, these workers all across the
Speaker 1: globe are talking about forming an union. Here's a quote
Speaker 1: from the piece. Talk to any VFX artists or tech
Speaker 1: working in modern Hollywood, and certain complaints come up over
Speaker 1: and over again, the punishing deadlines, the grueling work hours,
Speaker 1: too few workers charged with too much work underpayment, and
Speaker 1: systematic quote pixel fucking, an industry phrase used to describe
Speaker 1: the behavior of nippicking clients who lack the VFX knowledge
Speaker 1: to communicate their needs. I think that that last bit
Speaker 1: is an important part of this. This is an incredibly
Speaker 1: skill based, tech based, obviously specialized field, and I think
Speaker 1: it seems like magic if you're not directly involved in
Speaker 1: creating this stuff. Yes, and I think it can be
Speaker 1: very easy to say, well, can't you just like make
Speaker 1: the fir move when you don't know what the hell
Speaker 1: you're talking about. And the end result of this is
Speaker 1: artists being put through the ringer to create stuff. And
Speaker 1: the MCU Marvel is front and center of this just
Speaker 1: because of the weight of the footprint that they have
Speaker 1: in the space.
Speaker 2: Yes, this whole article is just full of brilliant reporting,
Speaker 2: but there are some unbelievable numbers in this article about
Speaker 2: how you know, in the era of a kind of
Speaker 2: like an industrialits and magic, Like just post the original
Speaker 2: Star Wars, you're talking about like ten percent of all
Speaker 2: movies that would have any kind of CG post production
Speaker 2: and now it's ninety percent yeah right, And not just that,
Speaker 2: but places like Marvel, which you know, this was something
Speaker 2: we spoke about this topic before in summer last year,
Speaker 2: when this massive amount of stories, Reddit threads, tweets came
Speaker 2: out about the way that Marvel had been treating people
Speaker 2: in post production houses. And one of the biggest complaints
Speaker 2: that come up against here is one of the ironically
Speaker 2: comes from one of the best things that Marvel does,
Speaker 2: which is where they take an under represented or newer
Speaker 2: director who has maybe only made a few indie movies
Speaker 2: Chloe Jao Tyker, Ryan Coogler, and then there doesn't seem
Speaker 2: to be a good go between between that director, the studio,
Speaker 2: and the VFX. So one of the things that they
Speaker 2: get into quite detailed here, which is just shocking, is
Speaker 2: this kind of having to rewrite the entire end of
Speaker 2: the movie a month before they're meant to be done,
Speaker 2: and then they're having to rebuild from scratch because a
Speaker 2: lot of times they'll just say this happens instead, and
Speaker 2: then you have an artist who has to craft that
Speaker 2: entire thing. There is also a number in here, I
Speaker 2: believe where and this one is really painful when you
Speaker 2: think about how much money these movies make. I believe
Speaker 2: they said that they did a survey of payment of
Speaker 2: people who worked in these fields. One of them, the
Speaker 2: lowest pay that they found was like seventeen dollars and
Speaker 2: thirty four cents an hour, which is just absolutely nightmarish
Speaker 2: for these eighteen hour days. You know that you have
Speaker 2: to work to be able to finish this movie that
Speaker 2: is going to make a billion dollars. So I'm really
Speaker 2: glad that there's kind of this voracious quest for unionization.
Speaker 2: But the thing that I find really interesting from reading
Speaker 2: this article that kind of blew my mind. I didn't
Speaker 2: really realize how similar the problem is. As you kind
Speaker 2: of very astutely pointed out, Jason, the lack of a
Speaker 2: physical space that all of these people work in. It's
Speaker 2: not a warehouse, it's not.
Speaker 3: An office, makes it harder.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are twelve, fifteen, sixteen, eighteen twenty houses sometimes
Speaker 2: all around the world working on this. And the biggest
Speaker 2: similarity to comics, a lot of people who do this
Speaker 2: job are freelancers. It is incredibly hard to unionize as freelancers.
Speaker 2: That is what for a long time has kept comics
Speaker 2: so hard to unionize because when you write a comic
Speaker 2: book for work for hire, you are not an employee.
Speaker 2: You may be an editor who is an employee who
Speaker 2: perhaps writes a story, but in general you are hired
Speaker 2: work hire. You are not an employee. You don't get benefits,
Speaker 2: you don't really have any employment rights. You are just
Speaker 2: hired for that one thing. And that is very much
Speaker 2: in the same scope as what the VFX space is
Speaker 2: struggling with. I'm very interested to see where this goes,
Speaker 2: because a lot of times all you need is the
Speaker 2: one place to do it, and that's something they talk about.
Speaker 3: Here Break the Seal.
Speaker 2: You know, we had talked about Image comics unionizing, right
Speaker 2: and how the inside the company workers had tried to
Speaker 2: start a union that was not voluntarily recognized. Very ironic.
Speaker 2: But the takeaway from this article that some people have
Speaker 2: in the piece is kind of that hopefully one house
Speaker 2: will unionize, one space, one company, the people within it
Speaker 2: will unionize, and then from there that can be the
Speaker 2: start of a bigger union, which I think is what
Speaker 2: everyone hopes for for comics too. Yeah, this was just
Speaker 2: such a great reason and I'm very interested. The wildest
Speaker 2: thing is like if there was a strike and obviously
Speaker 2: it'll be like a wildcat strike because there's not a union.
Speaker 2: But like if there was a strike, I mean movies
Speaker 2: would that would just the industry would come to a standstill.
Speaker 1: I Mean the issue is, as you noted, is the
Speaker 1: kind of diffuse nature of the VFX industry. Various houses,
Speaker 1: they're all around the world. How do you get them
Speaker 1: to strike as one because what would happen? You know,
Speaker 1: the threat is significantly lessened when a producer, a platform
Speaker 1: whoever can just say, Okay, well you're not going to
Speaker 1: do it, I'm going to go over to this other place.
Speaker 1: And so that's why these issues are very important, and
Speaker 1: it's also an outgrowth. I see this as very related
Speaker 1: to the issue of crunch in the video game space. Yes,
Speaker 1: crunch being the kind of like culturally accepted portion of
Speaker 1: the production schedule of a video game during which it
Speaker 1: is expected that employees essentially live at the fucking office
Speaker 1: and kill themselves to make this game go gold. Now,
Speaker 1: significant difference being oftentimes with crunch and with video game production,
Speaker 1: you do have employees all in the same place, and
Speaker 1: there is I think, contra the Hollywood and television, there
Speaker 1: is from the leadership in video games a keen understanding
Speaker 1: of the work and the type of work that goes
Speaker 1: into creating the game.
Speaker 2: So and I will also say that there was a
Speaker 2: huge and very widespread movement by the Game Workers Union
Speaker 2: to start union that really did like spark off some
Speaker 2: change there. So that's kind of what I feel like
Speaker 2: could happen here hopefully.
Speaker 1: I think in general, just this conversation, the fact that
Speaker 1: it's happening out in public, the fact that VFX workers
Speaker 1: are having their voices heard about the issues that impact them,
Speaker 1: it's really positive. And if the end result of this is,
Speaker 1: you know, a wing of IATZI for VFX workers or
Speaker 1: the like, then I think that we've made a big step. Listen,
Speaker 1: the rest of Hollywood is extremely unionized, the directors, the producers,
Speaker 1: the writers. I'm a member of the writers guilds. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's how I get my other churance. You know, It's
Speaker 1: like you see the benefits of it, and it just
Speaker 1: makes sense to me that this extremely integral piece of
Speaker 1: the machinery should also you knowze just as the rest
Speaker 1: of them have.
Speaker 2: I totally agree. And it seems shocking, like it says
Speaker 2: in this article multiple times, like you'll speak to like
Speaker 2: a camera operator and some and you'll tell them you're
Speaker 2: not unionized, and they're like, what the fuck, Like, how
Speaker 2: are you not unionized?
Speaker 3: What the fuck? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that I have to say. And look,
Speaker 2: people listen to the podcast. They know what we talk about,
Speaker 2: they know what we read. I have a copy of
Speaker 2: Uncanny X Men one eighty five behind me, you know,
Speaker 2: Storm without her Powers. But I think there is a
Speaker 2: direct line here between the way that Marvel and y C.
Speaker 2: But let's talk about Marvel because that's what we're talking
Speaker 2: about have always treated creators and the rights of the
Speaker 2: artists who have made this work for them. Direct line
Speaker 2: from that to how little they value the creators who
Speaker 2: are now making these movies for them. And I hope
Speaker 2: that with the current lawsuits with the heirs of some
Speaker 2: of the biggest superhero characters, including like the heirs of
Speaker 2: Steve Ditko for Spider Man, and the upcoming potential reversion
Speaker 2: of rights that that lawsuit could have alongside this potential
Speaker 2: VFX union, I would love to see a shift and
Speaker 2: a change in that corporate culture that could finally maybe
Speaker 2: start to put the rights and the proper capital and
Speaker 2: ownership and also just compensation back in the hands of
Speaker 2: the people who make these stories possible, whether it's comic
Speaker 2: book creators or VFX artists, who nowadays are equally important
Speaker 2: to those stories.
Speaker 1: I actually do see them as significantly different issues. The
Speaker 1: work for hire creators who created Batman, Superman, the X Men, etc.
Speaker 1: Not getting their do I think is a very specific
Speaker 1: and sad issue that has been addressed in dribs and drabs.
Speaker 1: You know, Marvel and DC both give royalties now, et cetera,
Speaker 1: Like there is a bonus paid when a created character
Speaker 1: goes into a.
Speaker 2: Movie sometimes sometimes let's say, very minimal.
Speaker 1: The VFX workers, while it is a creative job, are
Speaker 1: to me more like the grips and the lighting people
Speaker 1: in that they're doing a mechanical thing, not just like
Speaker 1: following a flight of fancy to be like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: going to make this character's costume exactly the way that
Speaker 1: I want, Like they're following a set order of things
Speaker 1: that have kind of passed down from the creators. At
Speaker 1: the same time, they are integral to the process. And
Speaker 1: I think that part of we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: the AI art class action lawsuit right after this. I
Speaker 1: think that broadly there is something that is not talked
Speaker 1: about enough when it comes to these kind of like
Speaker 1: tech based worker issues, and it affects the consumers as well.
Speaker 1: And it's that things change so quickly in tech. The
Speaker 1: way that we make movies now, with the volume and
Speaker 1: et cetera, it's completely different, even though like your computer
Speaker 1: graphics have been around for thirty plus years is completely
Speaker 1: different than the we're making movies ten years ago, twenty
Speaker 1: years ago, et cetera. Yeah, and so there is I
Speaker 1: think often an ease of disconnect between the older generation
Speaker 1: of producer, creator, whoever that has been working in the
Speaker 1: space and the younger people, more tech savvy people who
Speaker 1: are coming up. It's just the worlds are so different
Speaker 1: that they operate in that it's very easy and almost
Speaker 1: financially incentivized.
Speaker 3: To just like not really know what they do. And
Speaker 3: that actually causes a.
Speaker 2: Big problem that That's one of the things that comes
Speaker 2: up time and time again in this conversation is if
Speaker 2: you have a director or a producer who doesn't really
Speaker 2: understand the nature of the work, yes, then it's easy
Speaker 2: for them to come to you three weeks before the
Speaker 2: movie's meant to be done and say, hey, I need
Speaker 2: you to redo that like completely, and I don't really
Speaker 2: have a visualization for it. This just needs to happen.
Speaker 2: It's very like you said that disconnect makes it easy
Speaker 2: to push that work onto people without necessarily thinking about
Speaker 2: how much time or if it takes. And I also
Speaker 2: think that, like you said, that there's a lack of
Speaker 2: knowledge and education, maybe purposefully, but about how those changes
Speaker 2: are happening. I was incredibly shocked to find out that
Speaker 2: Victoria Alonso, who's done so much brilliant work at Marvel,
Speaker 2: I was very shocked to find out that she's the
Speaker 2: head of post production space in that company. That is
Speaker 2: a job that I would assume you would have somebody
Speaker 2: who worked in post production doing so they could be
Speaker 2: that person between the two. You can be that middleman
Speaker 2: who make sure that the people know, the directors know
Speaker 2: what is needed, and the VFX people know what is needed.
Speaker 2: So I think there's that disconnect is a huge problem,
Speaker 2: and hopefully a union would be able to at least
Speaker 2: bridge that a little bit.
Speaker 1: I mean, use the leverage and the weight that they have,
Speaker 1: hopefully for good, in order to have the workers' issues heard,
Speaker 1: and certainly not create a thing where people are working
Speaker 1: around the clock in order to make a movie or
Speaker 1: TV show happen. One of the people I work with,
Speaker 1: Peter Murrietta, who created Which There's a Waverley Place, He
Speaker 1: always says there's no such thing as a television emergency.
Speaker 1: I would say that the same thing is true for movies.
Speaker 1: While people you know, it's good to work hard, and
Speaker 1: sometimes you need to put in a twelve hour day,
Speaker 1: we get it, but.
Speaker 2: They say, I'm regular eighteen nowadays.
Speaker 1: But there should be no situation in which people are like,
Speaker 1: are just grilling themselves in order to make a fucking
Speaker 1: Avengers movie come out.
Speaker 3: I love Avengers movies, but like, come on, Okay.
Speaker 1: The AI class action lawsuit, We've been talking about it.
Speaker 1: The Internet has been talking about the leaps and bounds
Speaker 1: by which creative AI, whether it's Chat, GBT and the
Speaker 1: written word, or the various AI art engines Stability, AI,
Speaker 1: Stable Diffusion, etc. Have been kind of reshaping the creative space,
Speaker 1: and now a selection of artists have filed the class
Speaker 1: action suit against the AI Company's mid Journey, who makes
Speaker 1: Stable Diffusion, as well as DV and Art, who they
Speaker 1: allege allowed these AI engines to kind of like scrape
Speaker 1: their platform of art without informing the artists who post
Speaker 1: there have filed a class action lawsuit. From a Polygon
Speaker 1: article from January seventeenth, written by Nicole Clark, quote, the
Speaker 1: pseudoledges that these companies violated the rights of millions of
Speaker 1: artists by using billions of Internet images to train its
Speaker 1: AI art tool without the consent of artists, without compensating
Speaker 1: any of those artists. These companies benefit commercially and profit
Speaker 1: richly from the use of copyright images, the pseudo ledges quote.
Speaker 1: The harm to artists is not hypothetical, the suit says,
Speaker 1: noting that the works created by Generative AI art are
Speaker 1: quote already sold on the Internet, siphoning commissions from the
Speaker 1: art artists themselves. We talked about this briefly. I've been
Speaker 1: surprised that there haven't been more class action suits, but
Speaker 1: I think this piece takes that on, saying that it's
Speaker 1: most of the experts, while kind of split on whether
Speaker 1: what Stability or mid Journey are doing are actually illegal,
Speaker 1: do agree that depending on how this class action.
Speaker 3: Suit goes, there will surely surely be others.
Speaker 2: And the good thing about class action lawsuits anyone can
Speaker 2: just jump on once it's out there, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and this is a big deal because there's actually like,
Speaker 2: these are like high profile people. I'd actually read a
Speaker 2: really great article written by Sarah Anderson, who makes the
Speaker 2: webcomics Sarah Scribbles, which if you don't immediately know it
Speaker 2: by name, you will immediately recognize it if you see it,
Speaker 2: and she'd written about how people had taken what were
Speaker 2: essentially like her diary comics and put them into this
Speaker 2: AI and were already replicating them. And so these are
Speaker 2: quite big name people. One of the other names on
Speaker 2: this is like an illustrator has done stuff for Marvel,
Speaker 2: like the film studios and for Wizards of the Coast,
Speaker 2: So I think that helps as well, having like three
Speaker 2: high profile people who are willing to put their name
Speaker 2: to it. And the filing is wild. They found forty
Speaker 2: pages of alleged copyright infringements and stuff and different ways
Speaker 2: that the AI was infringing on people's rights. So I'm
Speaker 2: very interested to see where this goes. I think this
Speaker 2: is good. I think that, as a lot of people
Speaker 2: have pointed out, this could be the moment when it
Speaker 2: goes from like a Napster type thing to a Spotify.
Speaker 2: You know, this could be that turning point where people
Speaker 2: find a way of doing it. I hope it ends
Speaker 2: up being more financially viable for artists than spotifyers. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, I think this is probably an interesting thing
Speaker 2: that we should definitely be keeping our eyes on. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, who knows. There is some
Speaker 1: interesting conversation in a Verge piece written by James Vincent
Speaker 1: about this that kind of tries to dissect issues regarding
Speaker 1: fear use of this art and whether training in AI
Speaker 1: is fair use versus whether using that training to create
Speaker 1: content is fair use. I think there's that's really going
Speaker 1: to be where the rubber meets the road, zooming out,
Speaker 1: because who knows how that's going to go. I think
Speaker 1: one of my concerns with this is that AI art
Speaker 1: and the way it's trained AI art and the text
Speaker 1: generation AIS, the way they're trained, it seems to bring
Speaker 1: us back to like an earlier form of wealth creation
Speaker 1: that was based on I get richer by taking your shit.
Speaker 3: You can.
Speaker 1: Whatever criticisms we all have of capitalism and neoliberalism and
Speaker 1: the way it exploits the workers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like we had autistic feudalism. It's like I'm
Speaker 2: taking your shit post the mid nineteenth century. The basic
Speaker 2: thesis is like, okay, like you give us your time
Speaker 2: by working in the factory, and you make a little
Speaker 2: bit more money so that you can buy some conveniences
Speaker 2: that make your life easier.
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, the rich get richer. Okay.
Speaker 1: The AI era is you have done all this really
Speaker 1: really hard work for decades and we're just gonna take it,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna fucking take it, and that's how we're
Speaker 1: gonna build the value of our company.
Speaker 3: And that is really troubling.
Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right. I think that's the most
Speaker 2: worrying thing. And I also think that's something that a
Speaker 2: lot of people seem to have missed in these conversations,
Speaker 2: is like, yeah, mid Journey is scraping from billions of
Speaker 2: images or millions of images, whatever they say, and that
Speaker 2: you can make the argument that that makes it harder
Speaker 2: to compensate people or to give people credit. Right, But
Speaker 2: I've seen multiple examples of people who are using these
Speaker 2: generators or generators that use this r and just feeding
Speaker 2: one person's art in feeding fifty images of that person's
Speaker 2: are and then just plagiarizing that pep of persons are
Speaker 2: But saying they created it, And yeah, so I think
Speaker 2: you're spot on, and I think there's numerous different issues
Speaker 2: with this, one of which is that it devalues the
Speaker 2: work of artists and not just like it's really weird
Speaker 2: how all this stuff is kind of tied in because
Speaker 2: something people will be like, well, you know that VFX
Speaker 2: artist who is earning seventeen dollars an hour, Well, that's
Speaker 2: just they're doing their job and that's what the job's
Speaker 2: valued at. But no, because when you do a job,
Speaker 2: you're really being paid for all the work that went
Speaker 2: into it, or the way, the time that you have
Speaker 2: to spend to do it, or the rigamarole that it
Speaker 2: takes on your body. Like there's all these different things.
Speaker 2: And as an artist, when you do a commission, when
Speaker 2: you pay an artist five hundred dollars to commission you
Speaker 2: some beautiful portrait, you're really paying for not just the
Speaker 2: time that they spend to draw it, but all of
Speaker 2: the studying that they did or the practice all of that.
Speaker 2: And while some people argue that AIAR democratizes art because
Speaker 2: then you know, anyone can just make a picture by
Speaker 2: writing a word on the internet, that's not really that simple.
Speaker 2: That's like a really nice idealistic viewpoint. And I love
Speaker 2: the idea of accessibility, but guess what, Art's already accessible.
Speaker 2: You just need a pencil, pencil and a piece of paper.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I said this the previous time we talked about this,
Speaker 1: but it's essentially the way it's being used now. It
Speaker 1: is a wealth transfer from the working artists who do storyboards,
Speaker 1: who do the art for book covers, who do the
Speaker 1: art for album covers. We've already seen that happening and
Speaker 1: transferring those monies that those artists would have earned, and
Speaker 1: taking it at scale and transferring it to the value
Speaker 1: of these AI companies because of the work that they
Speaker 1: can make easier for the people who are producing various
Speaker 1: kinds of products.
Speaker 3: And I think that that.
Speaker 1: Is, you know, we need to grapple with the question
Speaker 1: of whether that's actually something we want to do. And
Speaker 1: hopefully this lawsuit will open the floodgates and we'll see
Speaker 1: some more because I think, you know, just some of
Speaker 1: the ways that these various companies have kind of like
Speaker 1: built their corporate structure, it's very clear that they want
Speaker 1: to insulate themselves from lawsuits. The way that they've targeted
Speaker 1: where to scrape art very clearly shows that they're targeting
Speaker 1: artists who don't have the resources.
Speaker 2: They're not scraping Mickey Mouse. They're scraping Yeah, No, we're
Speaker 2: not going to Disney dot com.
Speaker 1: And like, you know, like they're they're very clearly avoiding
Speaker 1: you know, big land mines, and that to me lets
Speaker 1: you know that they kind of understand that what they're
Speaker 1: doing is going to be objectionable to a great many people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're they're creating like a gray legal area where
Speaker 2: this was actually in that Verge piece, you know, the
Speaker 2: James Vincent piece that you mentioned that was written in
Speaker 2: November last year, and they actually say that part of
Speaker 2: the reason why they think there hasn't been any lawsuits
Speaker 2: is because it's so expensive. Yeah, and that's what this
Speaker 2: class action lawsuit could potentially answer. And that's kind of
Speaker 2: why it's a bit of an out there. People expected
Speaker 2: it to be a corporation or or someone with a
Speaker 2: lot of money who would be able to bring that
Speaker 2: first lawsuit. But this allows multiple people to be a
Speaker 2: part of it. And yet I'll be very interested that
Speaker 2: law firm is very well thought of in these cases,
Speaker 2: and I saw them one of the first people I
Speaker 2: saw who posted it said the lawsuits claimed back like
Speaker 2: four billion for people in similar class actions, So I'll
Speaker 2: be very interested to see where it goes. It's such
Speaker 2: a complex topic. But like you said, even between now
Speaker 2: and the last time we talked about it, yeah, Tor
Speaker 2: had to do an apology the publisher because they had
Speaker 2: bought a cover art that they thought was from a
Speaker 2: stock artist on a website and it turned out it
Speaker 2: was generated by AI. But they'd already made the books
Speaker 2: and they couldn't afford to reprint them. So this is
Speaker 2: already taking money from artists pockets, even in a most
Speaker 2: abstract way, even if we're not talking about someone directly plagiarizing.
Speaker 2: This is already, like their lawsuit claims, taking money out
Speaker 2: of the pockets of artists, and like you said, it's
Speaker 2: a wealth transfer. I think that's a really great way
Speaker 2: to put it, and it's not the way that it's
Speaker 2: supposed to be. And I hope this lawsuit can open,
Speaker 2: like you said, open the floodgates, open the doors on
Speaker 2: a bigger conversation about the morals of this stuff.
Speaker 1: Up next, we're gonna be catching up on the first
Speaker 1: four episodes of The Bad Batch Disney Plus, we're stepping
Speaker 1: out of the airlock to join forces with Clone Force
Speaker 1: ninety nine aka the Bad Batch, those genetic mutants that
Speaker 1: we all love so much, for more action and thrills
Speaker 1: in season two. Note for listeners, unlike the Last of Us,
Speaker 1: we won't be covering The Bad Batch week to week,
Speaker 1: but we'll be dropping in mostly on our second episode
Speaker 1: of the week, our Friday episode, The Bad Batch, created
Speaker 1: by Dave Filoni, of course starring d Bradley Baker as
Speaker 1: the Bad Patch.
Speaker 3: All of them, that's right, all of them.
Speaker 1: Great booking by d Bradley Baker, Hunter record Tech, Crosshair,
Speaker 1: and of course Echo Michelle angas Omega.
Speaker 3: That must be so crazy to do all these voices.
Speaker 2: I know, especially now it's like a two season long show.
Speaker 2: This is no longer like a four episode off, you know,
Speaker 2: as it was supposed to be.
Speaker 1: I gotta say Season two of The Bad Batch opens really,
Speaker 1: really strong. Yeah, but we're going to focus on the
Speaker 1: last two episodes, starting with episode three, The Solitary Clone,
Speaker 1: and then episode four Faster, which is really just an
Speaker 1: action episode, but a really great action episode, shouts so tech,
Speaker 1: good driving. Starting with episode three, the solitary Clone. We
Speaker 1: see an Imperial shuttle arrive on Desex, which is a
Speaker 1: farming world, and it's carrying the Imperial Governor of the planet,
Speaker 1: plus a squadron of Clone troopers in their new early
Speaker 1: storm trooper armor. They are met by Tawny Ames, who
Speaker 1: is the native governor of this planet. The Imperial Governor Grotten,
Speaker 1: is here to bring Desex, which was a separatist world
Speaker 1: a separatist hold out, into the Empire, and Ames is like, no,
Speaker 1: we fought on the side of the separatists against the Republic.
Speaker 1: We want to be independent. We fought for that independence,
Speaker 1: we earned it. And there's a reason we haven't joined
Speaker 1: the Empire, and that's because we don't fucking want to.
Speaker 1: And then she calls out her army of battle Droids,
Speaker 1: who have they ever won a battle anyway? She calls
Speaker 1: on her Army of battle Droyd. She's feeling Optimis's feeling
Speaker 1: good about it, and the battle Droids eject the Imperials
Speaker 1: from the planet with a message that's essentially like listen,
Speaker 1: don't come back, and don't try it on Corussant. Admiral
Speaker 1: Rampart Summon's cross hair from the mess hall cross Hair.
Speaker 1: There's a really nice detailing hero where we see how
Speaker 1: different cross Hair is from the rest of the Imperial clones.
Speaker 1: First of all, he wears the black armor. Second of all,
Speaker 1: nobody wants to eat with him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say, these mess whole scenes. For
Speaker 2: so long, installars animation have been this space of like
Speaker 2: camaraderie where we get to see the way the clones interact.
Speaker 2: So it's really really stark and striking that we see
Speaker 2: cross here here and alone, no brothers, no clones, this
Speaker 2: is just him. And yeah, it's it's really it's really
Speaker 2: good smart storytelling.
Speaker 1: So Rampart calls cross Hair to his office and he says, listen,
Speaker 1: I'm sending you to Desex. Your mission is by herker
Speaker 1: by Crook. You bring down Tawny Ames, the governor or,
Speaker 1: so whither we can replace her with, you know, our governor,
Speaker 1: Governor Grotten. Crosshair then goes to meet our old friend,
Speaker 1: Commander Cody, and what a what a what a delight,
Speaker 1: what a delight to see our good friend Commander Cody.
Speaker 1: It's maybe not so great that he's still working for
Speaker 1: the bad guys, although it's very clear that he feels
Speaker 1: a type of way about it.
Speaker 2: M hmm, yeah, and this is really cool. I mean
Speaker 2: I wasn't expecting this, and maybe I missed it in
Speaker 2: the trailers, but this is like our first canon Commander
Speaker 2: Cody appearance since like Revenge of the Six, Like, this
Speaker 2: is what this episode does so well and what the
Speaker 2: show does so well. But like you say, I was like, ah,
Speaker 2: still there, but then I was very interested by this
Speaker 2: choice of, like you said, to use him as kind
Speaker 2: of this in to where the Clones are when it
Speaker 2: comes to Order sixty six.
Speaker 1: That is such an interesting part of this conversation, and
Speaker 1: I think kind of like this series is very Clone
Speaker 1: War's esque, obviously because of the subject matter and the
Speaker 1: period that we're working in, but also in the sense
Speaker 1: that you can feel a kind of like overarching thematic
Speaker 1: structure for a season and then we'll drop in and
Speaker 1: out of that with different bottle episodes, like faster like
Speaker 1: different things, the same way the Clone Wars would kind
Speaker 1: of like move in crab like fashion towards in an
Speaker 1: arc from the beginning of a season towards the end
Speaker 1: of a season, but also would drop out and have
Speaker 1: like you know, bottle episodes for jar Jar Binks or whatever.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 1: For me, the most interesting part of Bad Batch is
Speaker 1: this idea of one where do the Clones find themselves?
Speaker 1: What place do they have both the bad Batch, you know,
Speaker 1: on their own and then the Imperial Clones what place
Speaker 1: do they have in the Empire. They're about to be
Speaker 1: replaced by stormtroopers though they don't know it. And on
Speaker 1: top of that, how do they feel about Order sixty six?
Speaker 1: How do they actually feel about it? And delving into
Speaker 1: that is really really fascinating. So Crosshair meats Commander Cody.
Speaker 1: Cody says, oh, yeah, the Bad Patch not surprised at
Speaker 1: all that you guys went rogue. In fact, like your
Speaker 1: whole purpose was kind of like go rogue. And he
Speaker 1: notes that clones have been discussing in small groups amongst
Speaker 1: themselves Order sixty six. What it meant, whether it's right,
Speaker 1: were the Jedi really traders to the Republic? Unclear? Crosshair, however,
Speaker 1: and it remains to be seen how deep this belief goes.
Speaker 3: But he is a believer. He is a true fucking believer.
Speaker 2: In this moment, he's looking at Kamanda Cody like Kamanda
Speaker 2: Cody is the threat. He's like, you don't understand because
Speaker 2: the secret of cross Has mission is like they're going
Speaker 2: on a diplomatic mission. But we know from Rampot that
Speaker 2: really he's sent cross Have for a reason.
Speaker 1: And I think that's another thing that's so interesting about
Speaker 1: this show is the way it takes Star Wars themes
Speaker 1: and shoots them through the lens of these clones. The
Speaker 1: main theme being here, how far to the dark side
Speaker 1: can you go before being pulled back before it's too late?
Speaker 1: And I think down to his voice and everything, the
Speaker 1: way he acts like you can't help that every time
Speaker 1: he's on the screen. Wonder what would it take for
Speaker 1: Crosshair to go, Okay, this is too much. Now, it's
Speaker 1: too much. Back on Desex, Tawny Ames knows the Imperial
Speaker 1: diplomats are not there to negotiate.
Speaker 3: She understands, she.
Speaker 1: Gets the empire. Maybe you know, one of the earliest
Speaker 1: ones to kind of see the truth about what the
Speaker 1: empire is. She says that, and this is a really
Speaker 1: cool wrinkle that Douku, who was really an idealist, Yeah
Speaker 1: he was if you look at his history, was a
Speaker 1: real idealist.
Speaker 3: That Douku at some.
Speaker 1: Point lost faith and understood that the Empire would be
Speaker 1: the end result of what was happening between the separatists
Speaker 1: and the Republic and the kind of machinations that Emperor
Speaker 1: Palpatine was putting in place, she sends for droids and
Speaker 1: tanks against the imperial ship.
Speaker 3: It crashes, but of.
Speaker 1: Course Cody and Crosshair are not so easily killed, and
Speaker 1: both of them survive, along with a handful of clones.
Speaker 1: We get a really cool action scene where cross Hair
Speaker 1: snipes an entire fucking tank through the barrel, and then
Speaker 1: they work together to fight their way into Ames's fortress.
Speaker 1: Crosshair and Cody just kind of like fight their way
Speaker 1: to a top of a tower where Ames is protected
Speaker 1: by droids and she's holding Governor Gratten hostage there. Ames
Speaker 1: then insists that hey, Desex is independent again, like we've
Speaker 1: been for many years. We're fighting a defensive campaign against
Speaker 1: the Empire. We're not attacking the Empire. You're attacking us.
Speaker 1: Uh So, like what the fuck? Cody then delivers the
Speaker 1: company line about the Empire. Hey, the Empire is just
Speaker 1: here to bring order after the chaos of you know,
Speaker 1: the clone wars. We're here to just bring peace unity.
Speaker 1: Ames is like, okay, Well, Desex tried years ago to
Speaker 1: negotiate a peace deal with the Empire, but the Empire
Speaker 1: was not interested, not even a little bit. They want everything,
Speaker 1: they don't want a negotiated piece. Cody is trying to
Speaker 1: talk Ames down. He vaguely threatens her, saying that like, hey,
Speaker 1: if you release Gratten, you should do it for the
Speaker 1: good of your people, which is a very imperial kind
Speaker 1: of like, hey, what if we just kill everybody?
Speaker 3: What about that?
Speaker 1: So she does, and then Governor Gratton immediately is like, hey,
Speaker 1: Commander Cody kill Tony Eames. Commander Cody's a good guy,
Speaker 1: and so he hesitates, But then cross Hair just fucking
Speaker 1: does it.
Speaker 2: And this is where I say to you, do you
Speaker 2: think that's the No, he's gone too far? Has I
Speaker 2: think he's gone too far at that point? What do
Speaker 2: you think it's Dooku killing Yaddle?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's mace Wind?
Speaker 2: Do you know it's those moments?
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean it's a cold blooded murder. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's an order. But like, I think he's gone
Speaker 1: too Like do you think that cross Hair can come
Speaker 1: back from this?
Speaker 2: I think the nature of this story, and the story
Speaker 2: of the Bad Batch in particular, is to explore the
Speaker 2: concept that that kind of nature of us is natural concept,
Speaker 2: but also the idea that even if you have done
Speaker 2: terrible things under the guise of following orders, you can
Speaker 2: become a better person and make right. I do think
Speaker 2: that in what is essentially a child's TV show, if
Speaker 2: you think about the way this is probably marketed within Disney.
Speaker 2: As much as I think this is brilliant adult storytelling,
Speaker 2: I do think that once you murder someone in cold blood,
Speaker 2: you probably you're probably not gonna have like a full
Speaker 2: redemption arc like this is like a gangster style, like
Speaker 2: a mafia hit, like he just he does it. I
Speaker 2: wanted more cross Hair, and I wanted to see where
Speaker 2: he was at. I find the story very interesting. I
Speaker 2: think we'll be in a position where Crosshair will have
Speaker 2: the chance to die to do something that's right.
Speaker 3: I think that's correct.
Speaker 2: I think that sadly is the only redemption that is
Speaker 2: left for him at this point. I was so interested
Speaker 2: by how dark they went with this episode, very very dark.
Speaker 2: The first two episodes are really great, and they and
Speaker 2: they set them in these beautiful exotic, tropical tropical and
Speaker 2: there's a lightness to it even when you're dealing with
Speaker 2: those big questions yeah, and those same big questions that
Speaker 2: have always made in my opinion, that animated shows so good,
Speaker 2: which is that how do other people exist in this
Speaker 2: huge space that aren't Skywalkers? What happens if you're created
Speaker 2: to be a killer? Like, how do you break out
Speaker 2: of that? What do you mean? How do you what
Speaker 2: does it mean to have agency? There's a lot of
Speaker 2: episodes in Clone Wars, I think, and Rebels as well,
Speaker 2: where people go, oh, You've got to watch this episode,
Speaker 2: and I feel like this is going to be one
Speaker 2: of those episodes. It appears to be an action episode
Speaker 2: on the surface, but it really has this kind of
Speaker 2: deeper depth in what it means for crosshairs, this kind
Speaker 2: of uncrossable line, no pun intended. But also it has
Speaker 2: like lots of Easter eggs. There's like, you know, the
Speaker 2: TK Troopers, they look kind of like round Corey's original designs.
Speaker 2: You have that reference that you mentioned about Aimes talking
Speaker 2: about going to the Republic, and that was kind of
Speaker 2: direct reference to an episode of Clone Wars. So it's
Speaker 2: this really great mix of that kind of deep emotional
Speaker 2: storytelling that Filoni does, but with that fun kind of
Speaker 2: Star Wars fan service that makes this show so exciting.
Speaker 3: You mentioned the darkness. Here is some dark shit.
Speaker 1: What do you do with Tawny Ames, the late Governor
Speaker 1: of Desk's body grotten is like, put her body in
Speaker 1: the square. Let it be a warning to the rest.
Speaker 1: They let that moment, I think smartly play on Cody's face,
Speaker 1: and you really see Cody at this moment doubt and
Speaker 1: really not even doubt, but like know that he's at
Speaker 1: that point. You know you're on the wrong side and
Speaker 1: you just murdered somebody who surrendered me.
Speaker 2: I'll be the bad guys. Moment, the answer is yes,
Speaker 2: that is the moment.
Speaker 1: Cody then has a private moment with Cross here and
Speaker 1: asks do you think we're doing the right thing, which
Speaker 1: is a weird question to ask someone who just murdered
Speaker 1: someone in cold blood, like, but you know, asks And
Speaker 1: there's some discussion about the Battle droids and what they
Speaker 1: do and how their role is very similar and that
Speaker 1: they go out and they fight the war that they
Speaker 1: are tasked with fighting just following orders, but saying that
Speaker 1: in a different way, and then Cody very wisely says, here, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's the difference. The droids don't have any free will.
Speaker 1: They do what they're program to do. They fight who
Speaker 1: they're programmed to fight, where their program to fight it.
Speaker 1: We can make the choice about whether or not, say,
Speaker 1: murdering a gaggle of young wings is right, you know,
Speaker 1: depending on the justification. We can weigh those things and
Speaker 1: make our own decision and should should not we do that.
Speaker 1: Crosshair looks at Cody with very clear suspicion. I mean,
Speaker 1: like the vibe I got from Crosshair was like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have to kill you at someone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's which I think is very interesting because I
Speaker 2: feel like the vison Cody asked him that is, I
Speaker 2: almost feel like he was trying to like scope it out. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like he was like, does he realize what he's done
Speaker 2: is wrong? Like is this someone who just had the
Speaker 2: same realization that I did? Is this is an ally
Speaker 2: in maybe questioning? But he learns that it's actually the opposite.
Speaker 2: For cross had that for whatever reason, he is fully
Speaker 2: committed to this imperial mission and he will do the worst,
Speaker 2: most terrific things if he thinks that they are necessary.
Speaker 1: There's also something really fascinating about the idea of here
Speaker 1: are all these clones. They have their identity at least
Speaker 1: initially was their numbers, you know, like very small differences
Speaker 1: in the way that they are getting their identity that's
Speaker 1: been created for them. But we see here through the
Speaker 1: course of this story, and this is really one of
Speaker 1: the deepest like questions of the Bad Batch in general,
Speaker 1: is even if you are a complete genetic recreation of
Speaker 1: another person, you can have a difference of opinion with
Speaker 1: that person. Yeah, and that's really interesting here. I also
Speaker 1: felt like maybe Cody is kind of like trying to
Speaker 1: get an idea of where Clone Force ninety nine the
Speaker 1: rest of them are landed to use cross Hair as
Speaker 1: kind of a lens to kind of see where they
Speaker 1: might be in that very clonesy way of like trying
Speaker 1: to find out. Okay, like, well, what are the rest
Speaker 1: of your batch think about this? Later on cross Hairs
Speaker 1: laying his bunk, he's lost in thought. He goes to
Speaker 1: mess again again in these wonderful moments that kind of
Speaker 1: like heighten the isolation of cross Hair. Rampart calls him again.
Speaker 1: Rampart has another mission for him. Why not Cody, He asks, well,
Speaker 1: Commander Cody has gone a wall.
Speaker 2: Dun dun du dun dun. I love this because I
Speaker 2: actually think it's a huge, well done bait and switch because,
Speaker 2: like you think, this is the start of understanding where
Speaker 2: Crosshairs Journey is going to go, and it is. But
Speaker 2: I think the real big returning character here is Commander Cody,
Speaker 2: and I think that this hints that we will see
Speaker 2: Commander Cody on a redemptive.
Speaker 3: Arc of his own. I think so too.
Speaker 2: That will be far more heroic and easy to swallow
Speaker 2: than trying to do that for who has committed this
Speaker 2: horrific wrong right in public view?
Speaker 3: X ray Vision will be back.
Speaker 2: And we're back.
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about episode four Faster, which is
Speaker 1: really just a fun Clones War era bottle episode. Echo
Speaker 1: and Hunter are off doing a thing. They're not available,
Speaker 1: so our good friend the gangster Sid brings in the
Speaker 1: rest Omega, Recker and tech as like her bodyguards to
Speaker 1: watch her back because she's got to do some gambling
Speaker 1: on this version of pod racing, which I mean, who
Speaker 1: doesn't fucking love pod racing?
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, pod racing is so fun.
Speaker 1: We get to meet her driver, Teo, who is a
Speaker 1: kind of very very flashy and arrogant droid voiced by
Speaker 1: Ben Schwartz, who got to double dip in the Star
Speaker 1: Wars universe, not only did Ben get to be BB eight,
Speaker 1: but now gets to be Tao.
Speaker 2: I know, I love this just like you'll go to uh,
Speaker 2: this is the go to droid man.
Speaker 1: Now there are various wrinkles, and Tao cannot continue because
Speaker 1: of a crash. So guess what Our good friend Tech
Speaker 1: needs to pilot the craft, and Tech uses his you know,
Speaker 1: strategic mindset and the information about the track delivered to
Speaker 1: him Biomega to kind of like master the track. It
Speaker 1: culminates in a wonderful like Luke, your targeting systems turned off?
Speaker 3: Is there anything wrong?
Speaker 1: Where he takes all the energy from like his weapons
Speaker 1: and puts it like the in the rest of the
Speaker 1: ship and then like makes a jump that nobody thinks
Speaker 1: he can make, and then he wins, and Sid is
Speaker 1: absolutely relieved and is wondering, you know, God, how long
Speaker 1: can I keep escaping like this with the with the
Speaker 1: use of these clones. And we also get a nice
Speaker 1: kind of like gesture at whether d is trying to
Speaker 1: be a better person.
Speaker 2: Yes, it seems like a mega kind of making this
Speaker 2: deal so that Sid can be safe. Yeah, that kind
Speaker 2: of gives Sid the little nudge to kind of be like, oh,
Speaker 2: maybe I need to kind of be There's a lot
Speaker 2: of moral complexity to the characters in this series, and
Speaker 2: Sid is definitely leaning into that area of like, oh
Speaker 2: maybe I could be inspired to do better things and
Speaker 2: be better by these people who are around me. And
Speaker 2: this is just yeah, like you said, you love pod racing, Uh,
Speaker 2: you love swoop racing, everyone's favorite shit from the nights
Speaker 2: of the Old Republic. Like this is a really fun
Speaker 2: kind of almost like silly breather.
Speaker 1: Yeah, after the bleakness that we saw, extreme bleakness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it kind of makes the last episode even sadder
Speaker 2: because you get to see the camaraderie and like friendship
Speaker 2: and trust yeah that the rest of the crew have
Speaker 2: while Crossair is kind of living this isolated killer life.
Speaker 1: It feels like something you save for the penultimate episode
Speaker 1: and the finale. But they have to cross paths again. Sorry,
Speaker 1: right they do?
Speaker 2: I mean, what do you think the will crossha be
Speaker 2: sent to kill them? Is that what it's going to be? Like?
Speaker 2: I feel like that seems like the ultimate kind of
Speaker 2: poetic maybe specifically to kill Omega.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the bad Batch as set up
Speaker 1: in the first two episodes are gonna make the decision
Speaker 1: that Okay, we're doing our own kind of independent things,
Speaker 1: scuttling across the galaxy in the Outer Rim, doing jobs
Speaker 1: for SID, doing little other jobs here. But what we
Speaker 1: really need to do, which is something they grappled with
Speaker 1: in the first two episodes, is get involved in this
Speaker 1: fight such as it exists. Get involved in this fight
Speaker 1: against the Empire. And I think they're going to go
Speaker 1: do some sort of heisty job and Crosshair is gonna
Speaker 1: be there with his clone troopers to meet them and
Speaker 1: try and take them down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and my prediction is that Commander Cody will kind
Speaker 2: of be alongside the bad Batch at that point.
Speaker 3: That will be fucking great. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know what you actually called this because you'd
Speaker 2: said you felt like this season was gonna be or
Speaker 2: something you'd really like to see that you thought could happen,
Speaker 2: would be like how does the bad Batch become involved
Speaker 2: with the rebellion? And that is from the very like
Speaker 2: you said, the very first episode, second episode, that is
Speaker 2: a big theme. I mean they even have the repainted
Speaker 2: suits with like the red, yeah, which the red hints
Speaker 2: towards the rebel alliance. So we're seeing that move. I
Speaker 2: think by the end we could see them fully embracing
Speaker 2: the rebellion. Also, I mean that first season when I
Speaker 2: was rewatching it for the pod Like, there are so
Speaker 2: many huge cameos, not less that huge like opening episode
Speaker 2: retcon opening, which I just loved, which kind of changes
Speaker 2: the fate of a really famous character. But I would
Speaker 2: be very interested to see who we're gonna see them
Speaker 2: come up against from others our war stories. I feel
Speaker 2: like they're keeping it intimate at the moment with these
Speaker 2: characters that we know, who are so intrinsically connected. But
Speaker 2: I feel like that penultimate episode kind of showdown could
Speaker 2: take place in a space where the rebellion is already forming,
Speaker 2: where we could see some familiar faces.
Speaker 3: One more question.
Speaker 1: There was a tweetleck Green tweeleck in the crowd of
Speaker 1: the pod race, and I mean hera has already shown
Speaker 1: up in the Bad Batch season one.
Speaker 3: Was she just like in the crowd, like just taking
Speaker 3: in a race?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I would love that. She was just chilling.
Speaker 2: She's like, I need to see how things go for tech, Like,
Speaker 2: I just like, I mean, I love here. I feel
Speaker 2: like they're having a lot of fun with these like
Speaker 2: recognizable alien life forms, kind of like what we talked
Speaker 2: about in The Mandalorian where they want you to look
Speaker 2: at them and be like, oh, is that character the character?
Speaker 3: I think it is.
Speaker 2: I'm always for more, more hero more, anyone for rebels.
Speaker 1: My Star Wars wife, I want to see it. Will
Speaker 1: be checking in on the Bad Batch in suremittingly in
Speaker 1: the coming weeks. Up next a very exciting nerd out.
Speaker 2: In today's nerd Out, where you tell us what you
Speaker 2: love them, why, or a theory that you would like
Speaker 2: to share. Rodney listened to us. I've been saying on
Speaker 2: these episodes that you can send in a theory. I've
Speaker 2: been saying, send it in, make it Tim Foyley, make
Speaker 2: it as wild as me and Jason would make it.
Speaker 2: And you know what, Rodney actually came up with an
Speaker 2: incredibly logical pitch. I'm very impressed by it. I'm actually
Speaker 2: surprised this hadn't come up on our list. So this
Speaker 2: is for Marvel's upcoming Secret Invasion series, and it is
Speaker 2: one of the questions that we and our listeners have
Speaker 2: been asking the most, which is who is going to
Speaker 2: be a scroll Jason? Why don't why don't you read
Speaker 2: the theory. It's a pretty good one.
Speaker 1: Sure this is from Rodney Hi there never sent in
Speaker 1: a question before, but listening to this week speculation about
Speaker 1: who could be a scroll in the MSU, I'm flabbergas perfect.
Speaker 1: No one has theorized the one that seems like a
Speaker 1: no brainer. Sharon Carter. She's now the power broker and
Speaker 1: Magic were making shaded deals. She's gotta be one. Thanks
Speaker 1: for the fun pod. Always excited to hear you both
Speaker 1: every week. Thank you, Rodney, thank you for these thoughts. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I mean it, Yes.
Speaker 2: So much sense. Look, Sharon makes too much sense. I'm
Speaker 2: not like, I'm not like the world's number one like
Speaker 2: Agent thirteen fan that that vision of shield is not
Speaker 2: like something that gets me so excited. But I will
Speaker 2: say I did not believe that Sharon Carter was essentially
Speaker 2: an upset like an ex girlfriend of Steve Rogerson. Like what, like,
Speaker 2: you're you're mad about like that the Avengers didn't help you.
Speaker 2: I'm like, were you talking about? This is ridiculous? No,
Speaker 2: I love this. It makes so much sense. I really
Speaker 2: like the idea that this would be an absolutely different
Speaker 2: kind of power base for a scroll to have. It
Speaker 2: would be a scroll with millions of dollars. It would
Speaker 2: be a scroll with contacts in the shadiest place in
Speaker 2: the Marvel Universe where every criminal knows to come. It
Speaker 2: would also this is a bit Timfoiley, but Powerbroker can
Speaker 2: give people powers. We know that the Scrolls and the
Speaker 2: super Sculls can replicate, well the super Sculls specifically, they
Speaker 2: can replicate a power. Maybe there's something there, some kind
Speaker 2: of scroll technology that would be allowing Sharon to give
Speaker 2: those powers. I'm very interested in this theory, Rodney. She's
Speaker 2: on the list.
Speaker 3: Now I'll go further.
Speaker 1: I think it makes a lot of sense from a
Speaker 1: strategic point of view. If you're the scrolls, what do
Speaker 1: the scrolls want to do? They want to take over,
Speaker 1: but first they want to do so covertly.
Speaker 3: Why.
Speaker 1: One because they're scrolls and their shape shifts. This is
Speaker 1: the nature of the thing. Secondarily, it's because Earth is
Speaker 1: really really strong. They fought off Panos, they fought off
Speaker 1: multiple different kinds of incursions from gods, from aliens, et cetera.
Speaker 1: They have heroes that are really really powerful. They have
Speaker 1: a defense structure that is, you know, pretty powerful on
Speaker 1: its own. They need to weaken all of that from
Speaker 1: the insights.
Speaker 3: So how do you do that.
Speaker 1: You you weaken trust inmpowered people by giving losers and
Speaker 1: mirados and criminals and people who don't deserve it powers.
Speaker 3: Anybody who can pay for it.
Speaker 1: You give them powers. And by the way, those powers
Speaker 1: aren't even that good. They're just like, I can beat
Speaker 1: somebody immaculate. Yea, this theory is so good, Jason. And
Speaker 1: so now you're creating this kind of corrosive misinformation, creating
Speaker 1: this this environment in which people who used to look
Speaker 1: up to Tony Stark to the Hulk to captain America
Speaker 1: are now like, is this really good thing.
Speaker 2: That everybody like sim before? But now it's.
Speaker 3: Now it's anybody.
Speaker 1: And and that is all working towards what the scrolls
Speaker 1: want to do, which is create this chaos, this kind
Speaker 1: of weakening of the of the social fabric so that
Speaker 1: they can sneak in there and take control.
Speaker 3: I think it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: I love this, and I think that that would do
Speaker 2: so much to destabilize the MCU as we know it,
Speaker 2: and it would explain that choice to me. Plus, I
Speaker 2: would love to see a space where you have like
Speaker 2: this scroll powerbroker Sharon Carr involved with this, like Thunderbolts
Speaker 2: esque team, yes that Valley's putting together. There could just
Speaker 2: be so many maniacal evil things occurring in a way
Speaker 2: that we haven't really seen, you know, one of the
Speaker 2: classic superhero stories that kind of classic to the point
Speaker 2: where we rag on it when we see it, like
Speaker 2: you know, oh, no, Spider Man, there's an evil spider
Speaker 2: Man and he's doing stuff. It must be Spider Man
Speaker 2: stand Evil or Batman and it's just someone dressed up
Speaker 2: with them. We haven't gotten to see that in the
Speaker 2: MCU because of the nature of how these stories are
Speaker 2: told and the huge scope. So the idea that we'll
Speaker 2: get to see this inversion of what a superhero can
Speaker 2: be is actually really exciting on a narrative level and
Speaker 2: as a fan, and leans into some of the most
Speaker 2: fun storytelling tropes of comics. But like you said this again,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it's going back there the X Men. This
Speaker 2: sets up that distrust and suspicion and fear that we
Speaker 2: would need, and that could be something that could actually
Speaker 2: see the Scrolls get defeated or destabilize themselves, because if
Speaker 2: they are in those roles it's going to be much
Speaker 2: harder for them to continue to be empower as people
Speaker 2: stopped to trust them. But if the scrolls revealed themselves
Speaker 2: in different forms or as scrolls and said, hey, these
Speaker 2: Suberas are terrible, we'll stop them, then you're in a
Speaker 2: really interesting place where they can take even more power.
Speaker 3: It's a great one, Rodney, you killed it.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Rodney. If you have any theories or passions
Speaker 2: you want to share like Rodney, hit us up at
Speaker 2: x ray at crooked dot com. Instructions as always in
Speaker 2: the show notes.
Speaker 1: That's it for us. Rosie plugs, plugs, plugs, plug plugs,
Speaker 1: any plugs.
Speaker 2: You can find me rosymarks at Instagram and letterbox. I
Speaker 2: have a website rosienight dot comway you can read all
Speaker 2: of my articles which are archived on AU three. You
Speaker 2: can read some of my comic books there. Maybe I'll
Speaker 2: be able to tell you something about my top secret
Speaker 2: project coming soon. But it's going, it's going, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: Oliver's artwork is looking beautiful as always. Yeah, and just
Speaker 2: listen to the extra vision. You know where we are
Speaker 2: here us now two times a week talking about all
Speaker 2: this cool stuff.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and network with
Speaker 1: the three in the work. Reach out to me there.
Speaker 1: Catch the next episode on Wednesday, January twenty fifth, with
Speaker 1: more of the Last of Us. We're gonna be doing
Speaker 1: a double Last of Us next week, covering the show
Speaker 1: on our Wednesday episode and then our second installment of
Speaker 1: our covers of the video game in our Friday episode.
Speaker 1: And remember, two episodes a week, two episodes a week
Speaker 1: we're bringing you to. That's two episodes a week, two
Speaker 1: episodes a week twice, the tinfoil Hat series twice, the
Speaker 1: keep Dives twice.
Speaker 3: The stuff, we're doubling.
Speaker 2: It, folks, and so to make sure you get the
Speaker 2: double stuff, you've got to subscribe to the show on YouTube,
Speaker 2: follow x r V pod on Twitter, and check out
Speaker 2: our discord where we're always hanging out meet and hang
Speaker 2: out with a ton of amazing fans and listeners. I'm
Speaker 2: me and Jason'll be in there. I'm really excited to
Speaker 2: chat in the discord about the Last of Us when
Speaker 2: we watch it. That live watch was really great, really
Speaker 2: really fun.
Speaker 3: Five star ratings. We need them.
Speaker 1: We gotta have them. You have them, you gotta give
Speaker 1: them to us. Here's one from Doris Henrique amazing, five stars,
Speaker 1: quick and to the point, and that's what we love
Speaker 1: to Thank you, Doris Rique, See.
Speaker 2: You next time.
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is a Crooked Media production.
Speaker 3: The show is produced by Chris Lord and Saul Rubin.
Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by myself and Sandy's Road
Speaker 1: are editing in sound design Who's by Vascillis Fotopoulos. Dylon
Speaker 1: Villanueva and Matt der Group provide video production support. Alex
Speaker 1: Weller for Handle Social Media. Thank you Brian Vesquez for
Speaker 1: the music.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 2: Bye MHM.