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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's filled Courtney with an army of normal folks.

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Speaker 1: And now we continue with part two of our conversation

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Speaker 1: with Alice Marie Johnson, right after these brief messages from

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Speaker 1: our generous sponsors. You know, the daughter of a woman

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Speaker 1: who grew up a sharecropper and probably the granddaughter of slaves,

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Speaker 1: if I'm doing the your mother was probably the granddaughter

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Speaker 1: of actual slaves, right right, who somehow found the good

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Speaker 1: in all people. I guess that DNA that filtered down

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Speaker 1: to her daughter doesn't surprise me that you would skip

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Speaker 1: in prison. She would find some light in the darkest places.

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Speaker 1: And so what you do in prison?

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Speaker 2: I started writing plays and writing plays, writing plays. That's

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Speaker 2: hilarious because I've always loved to write. Yeah, And before

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Speaker 2: I went to prison, I did a few little short

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Speaker 2: things at church, nothing very long, but I would hear people.

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Speaker 2: I just started writing because that was the way that

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Speaker 2: I would deal with stuff. And I wrote. I started

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Speaker 2: writing little skits and putting on shows in prison. But

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Speaker 2: the actual first thing that I did, because they put

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Speaker 2: me in BT's vocational technical. Because this woman is unusual,

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Speaker 2: she knows. I taught typing, I taught computers.

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Speaker 1: You taught other inmates.

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Speaker 2: Other inmates.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so not everybody that you're around is in for

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Speaker 1: life in twenty five. Some got three four five a year,

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Speaker 1: So you start teaching.

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Speaker 2: To go to get out. My role was to prepare

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Speaker 2: them for re entry, so I helped them redo theirs.

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Speaker 1: The prison give you this.

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Speaker 2: They gave me that role. I worked in vocational technical

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Speaker 2: and it's something how once people realize that you can

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Speaker 2: do things, they'll give you more to do.

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Speaker 1: And experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they realized that once I saw one person

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Speaker 2: struggling with their resume, and I wrote them a fire resume,

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Speaker 2: and then I got the newspaper and said, these are

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Speaker 2: the jobs that you should apply for. They said I don't.

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Speaker 2: I say, yes, you do, and so they started using

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Speaker 2: me more and more. But then I noticed that the

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Speaker 2: women who had long sentences like myself couldn't take the classes,

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Speaker 2: and so.

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Speaker 1: They were like, don't waste the time on them, because

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Speaker 1: so is that why?

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Speaker 2: That was exactly why they said.

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Speaker 1: They're not them a little hope? That was my.

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Speaker 2: Question is how do you tell a woman not to hope?

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Speaker 2: How do you tell a person not to prepare for

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Speaker 2: a future. So the warden there she really liked me.

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Speaker 2: I went to her ward Yeah, the warden, Oh, the warden,

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Speaker 2: the warden, the warden, because she had seen things I

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Speaker 2: was doing in prison. I was really trying, trying, and

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Speaker 2: so I wrote it up as a complaint. I found

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Speaker 2: a complaint about that. She calls me to her office

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Speaker 2: and I explained why she looked at me. She said, no, Alice,

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Speaker 2: she said, missus Johnson. She said, you know, miss Johnson.

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Speaker 2: I thought about what you said. You're right, I said,

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Speaker 2: you know, warden, her name was warden. Rees. If you

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Speaker 2: allow the women to take these classes who have long sentences,

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Speaker 2: a lot of them are getting in trouble because they

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Speaker 2: don't have anything to look forward to in prison. They

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Speaker 2: were getting getting in trouble in prison because they're they

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Speaker 2: are shone, not allowed opportunities. So for someone who's already

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Speaker 2: broken and you're breaking them more, making them feel worthless.

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Speaker 1: Is actually in a prison in prison.

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Speaker 2: In a prison in prison. So it changed things on

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Speaker 2: that compound.

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Speaker 1: It really did, because the long, the long sentenced women,

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Speaker 1: regardless of what their crime was and what they did,

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Speaker 1: if you gave them something to do and to feel

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Speaker 1: effective and purposeful, they quit acting out as much as

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Speaker 1: prison because they had something to look forward to.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so from speaks to humanity. It really does.

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Speaker 2: When you can look at someone and say you have value,

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Speaker 2: you have work. And even the place that I put on,

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Speaker 2: many of the women had never heard applause in their life.

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Speaker 2: What mean they have?

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Speaker 1: They have never been applause, They've.

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Speaker 2: Never been applauded. No one has ever given them applause.

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Speaker 2: So to do their part good, to sing, to have

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Speaker 2: their artwork on display. Because I didn't do mediocre stuff.

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Speaker 2: I would do pageantry. It would look as if they

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Speaker 2: were going to a theater on the outside. And when

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Speaker 2: I went to the next prison.

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Speaker 1: It hold it. How long were you at that prison?

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Speaker 2: Only a year? And I shook it. I turned it

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Speaker 2: upside down.

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Speaker 1: That's phenomenal. We interviewed. Now. I can't help it, but

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Speaker 1: you're reminded me of so many things. Dub Ellinger is

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Speaker 1: a woman in Detroit who serves food and has homes

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Speaker 1: for trafficked and pimped women in Detroit. And the way

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Speaker 1: she finds them is she literally goes out into the

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Speaker 1: streets and gives them sandwiches and food and clothes. And

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Speaker 1: if only for fifteen or thirty minutes, those women opens up,

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Speaker 1: have someone to talk to, and they eventually open up.

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Speaker 1: But the thing she says that she makes she does

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Speaker 1: every time before she leaves, and she looks everyone was

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Speaker 1: on in my eyes, and she said, you were loved

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Speaker 1: by God and your life has value, and when you

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Speaker 1: want to get out of this life, there are people

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Speaker 1: that care enough to help you find that value. And

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Speaker 1: then they leave. And she said, eventually they come to

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Speaker 1: her and they get out of that life because they've

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Speaker 1: just never been told by anybody that they have value.

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Speaker 1: And you say, it's the same thing. These people have

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Speaker 1: never been applauded, they've never been graduated, they've never felt

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Speaker 1: good about themselves, they've never been recognized. The power of that.

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Speaker 2: The power of even encouragement of showing love to someone

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Speaker 2: else who don't even love themselves. When I left there

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Speaker 2: after being there a little over a year, I was

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Speaker 2: at Carswell, the next prison for fifteen years. And where

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Speaker 2: was that in Texas? Fort Worth? When I got there,

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Speaker 2: it was so depressing. So many women were in wheelchairs,

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Speaker 2: some were blind, some had no legs, some of them

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Speaker 2: were mental. In the hospital part. So this was FCI

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Speaker 2: Federal Correctional Institute medical It was a medical center, but

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Speaker 2: they had built high rises because the female population was

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Speaker 2: exploding and less than at that time it was five years,

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Speaker 2: but in ten years it had increased by eight hundred

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Speaker 2: percent women and they didn't have enough prisons, so they

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Speaker 2: had to build high rises at other prisons to bring

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Speaker 2: women in. And we were quadruple, quadruple buk four of

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Speaker 2: us in this little tight space that you can't even

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Speaker 2: stand side by side.

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Speaker 1: That's going on in our society, that our prison population

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Speaker 1: has increased by eight hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: This should tell you something. In the United States, we

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Speaker 2: account for less than six percent of the world population,

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Speaker 2: but we incarcerate twenty five percent of the world population.

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Speaker 2: It's our laws, to be honest with you. A lot

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Speaker 2: of it is driven by the private prison industry, their stock.

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Speaker 2: When things fail. In two thousand and eight when everything

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Speaker 2: was crashing, you know what went up, prison stock. It's

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Speaker 2: like trading humanity as.

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Speaker 1: A tougher laws. Of course, of course they have.

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Speaker 2: They are a very strong group because in their contracts

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Speaker 2: when they get a federal contract a private prison facility,

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Speaker 2: in the contract, they're guaranteed ninety percent of the bids

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Speaker 2: would be filled. And if it drops to eighty percent,

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Speaker 2: then the government has to pay them what they're losing.

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Speaker 2: So it's like, are they going to lobby against themselves.

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Speaker 2: It's not right, but it's what. It's one of the things.

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Speaker 2: And there are so many laws on the books now.

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Speaker 2: The reciptivism rate, even when people get out, is so

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Speaker 2: easy to make have a technical violation and be locked

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Speaker 2: back up again. But my life at Carswell, at that

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Speaker 2: medical center totally changed because there's a whole building with

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Speaker 2: unhealthy women. There's a floor of women who are dying.

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Speaker 2: There's a hospice unit. I ended up taking hospice training

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Speaker 2: when I discovered that unit, and I would many times

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Speaker 2: they would allow them when they got to the end

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Speaker 2: of their days, at the very end, they would give

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Speaker 2: them the opportunity to ask for an inmate to sit

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Speaker 2: with them. Because I was a volunteer, i got trained.

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Speaker 2: I never thought i'd do something like that. So I

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Speaker 2: was so busy because so many of them would ask

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Speaker 2: for me to sit with them.

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Speaker 1: And so when you shot, while they died.

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Speaker 2: I sat with them. I'd read to them, I sing

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Speaker 2: to them why because I was given I was sold

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Speaker 2: that I was going to die. But not just because

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Speaker 2: of that. To be alone and to die alone with

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Speaker 2: no family around you, to me, was about the worst thing.

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Speaker 2: They didn't come there to die, they got sick or

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Speaker 2: they came in sick, and that was the only medical

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Speaker 2: facility for women in the country, so if you were dying,

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Speaker 2: you had had to come to carswell, so.

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Speaker 1: You got transferred there because the population was the prison

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Speaker 1: population was exploding and it had empty beds.

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Speaker 2: It had empty beds, so.

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Speaker 1: You went there to keep the numbers up.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, a lot of women were still and what they

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Speaker 2: called the pipeline. They were in county jails and so

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Speaker 2: they could and be moved to a federal facility because

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Speaker 2: it wasn't there weren't enough, so they had to build

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Speaker 2: more so they could get the women out of the

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Speaker 2: jails and get them into a prison cell on federal property.

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Speaker 2: So really for me, sitting with women, it was an

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Speaker 2: honor for me to be able to help someone transition.

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Speaker 2: But it also became when my father passed away, I

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Speaker 2: had to stop because it was too emotional for me

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Speaker 2: to be with them because my father died suddenly while

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Speaker 2: I was gone.

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Speaker 1: You said, you never thought you'd find yourself working in hospice,

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Speaker 1: but you did it because you just never wanted to

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Speaker 1: see anybody pass alone, right, which is so kind really,

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Speaker 1: the depth of your kindness, I think again, that's some

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Speaker 1: of your mama's DNA coming out in you. But there's

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Speaker 1: this one particular story of a Catholic woman that was

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Speaker 1: in hospice I think in Texas, right right, share that

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Speaker 1: with us well.

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Speaker 2: Previously, I would always work in the chapel, volunteering. I'd

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Speaker 2: find my way back to the chapel, so I knew

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Speaker 2: about the songs that they would sing. And every time

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Speaker 2: I would have a new patient, I'd call her my

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Speaker 2: patient in hospice. I'd find out, what is your faith?

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Speaker 2: Because I want to read to them, I want to

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Speaker 2: do something for them. I want to honor their faith. Yes,

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Speaker 2: And so this particular woman, she was in a komatose appearance.

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Speaker 2: Her mouth was opened, her eyes were staring blankly, and

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Speaker 2: when I arrived there to sit with her, they told

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Speaker 2: me that she couldn't hear and that she didn't understand,

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Speaker 2: that she wasn't comprehending anything. She was in a coma,

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Speaker 2: basically a komatose state, and her family were no longer

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Speaker 2: visiting her because they couldn't stand to see her looking

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Speaker 2: like that. So I found out she was Catholic, so

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Speaker 2: I just started singing to her. I was singing a

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Speaker 2: lot to the women, or i'd read from their passages.

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Speaker 2: I'd keep them, you know, I'd just communicate with them anyway.

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Speaker 2: And so while I'm singing ten pea dad, which is Lord,

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Speaker 2: have mercy, I'm singing, Oh Lord, have mercy, Oh Lord

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Speaker 2: have mercy. As I'm singing Oh Lord, have mercy on me,

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Speaker 2: a tear started running down her face, and I walked

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Speaker 2: over to her and I started singing again. I stopped

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Speaker 2: for a moment, and I said, can you hear me?

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Speaker 2: I said, do you understand what I'm saying? I said,

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Speaker 2: if you do, blink once, and she blinked, and I said,

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Speaker 2: do you want your family to come and visit? I

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Speaker 2: said some other things, but I had her blinking. So

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Speaker 2: I ran out and got the nurse and I told

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Speaker 2: her that this woman is she can hear, she understands.

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Speaker 2: She literally was trapped in her body, and they contacted

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Speaker 2: the doctor and then they did some other tests with

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Speaker 2: her with the same blinking, and her family was able

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Speaker 2: to come back to see her, and they spent the

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Speaker 2: last days with her, and so was that was just

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Speaker 2: really the.

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Speaker 1: Power of And if you don't think you can make

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Speaker 1: light in the darkest of places like prison, that story

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Speaker 1: is metaphorically. I mean, you were able to reunite a

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Speaker 1: dying woman with her family when even the trained professionals

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Speaker 1: said she was catatonic. They did, and through just some

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Speaker 1: genuine care, compassion and love, you were able to communicate

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Speaker 1: with I was.

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Speaker 2: Able to communicate with her. They knew me for sitting

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Speaker 2: with the women when they were in hospice in the Foundays.

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Speaker 2: So many women had the opportunity to ask for a

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Speaker 2: special one of the special volunteers. That's who they want

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Speaker 2: with it. So I spent a lot of time in

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Speaker 2: hospice because a lot of them wanted me to sit

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Speaker 2: with them. I held their hands.

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Speaker 1: So here's an interesting thing I read that you did.

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Speaker 1: I think when in Texas Special Olympics in Texas or Housville.

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Speaker 2: It was in Texas.

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Speaker 1: It's Texas. You wouldn't think of Special Olympics in federal prison.

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Speaker 1: But somehow I guess when you make plays and everything

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Speaker 1: else you did in prison, why not the Special Olympics.

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Speaker 1: But tell me about that.

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Speaker 2: There had never been a Special Olympics in prison before.

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Speaker 1: Well shocking, but you know, seeing the.

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Speaker 2: Women who were on the fringes who were not involved

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Speaker 2: with anything, I decided I want to help bring Special Olympics.

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Speaker 2: So we created I helped coordinate events for them. Even

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Speaker 2: one of the women, I asked her Anna, I said, Anna,

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Speaker 2: because she didn't have any legs, she had lost them

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Speaker 2: in a car accident before prison. I said, what do

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Speaker 2: you miss most about not having your legs? And she said,

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Speaker 2: Miss Alice, I miss dancing. So I said, well, you're

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Speaker 2: going to dance again. So for part of the entertainment

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Speaker 2: for the Special Olympics, to honor them as they were

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Speaker 2: getting their medals, Anna danced with me. I created a

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Speaker 2: dance to the song never Give Up, and I taught

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Speaker 2: her how to use her upper body, and as the

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Speaker 2: other women used their legs and the upper body, she

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Speaker 2: mimicked and she was in the circle. She was crying.

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Speaker 2: It was so beautiful. The Special Olympics National heard about

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Speaker 2: the Special Olympics that was being done in a prison,

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Speaker 2: so I had no idea that they were coming out.

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Speaker 2: So they came out to see our Special Olympics medals

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Speaker 2: being awarded and they also saw the entertainment. They also

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Speaker 2: saw Anna dance, and so they gave me an award

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Speaker 2: called the Special Olympics Coordinator.

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Speaker 1: Of the Year Award.

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Speaker 2: I've never heard of anything like that. I think they

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Speaker 2: made it up, Bill, just to give me something.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: The plays that I would write, I would have to

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Speaker 2: do four performances. I would do one that was strictly

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Speaker 2: for those in the medical building. If you saw how

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Speaker 2: those women would dress up, they dressed up like they

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Speaker 2: were going out on the town. Creases on everything, hair done,

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Speaker 2: make upon. I'd put little flowers we'd have made on

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Speaker 2: their wheelchairs. I used them in different rolls so that

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Speaker 2: they could be a part of the rest of the community.

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Speaker 2: But my life in prison, I can honestly tell you,

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Speaker 2: Bill was not wasted. I was able to bring theater

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Speaker 2: I discovered. I would hear they've told my sister, who's

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Speaker 2: here with me today. Some of the women would tell

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Speaker 2: her that Alice we were when we saw her coming.

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Speaker 2: The first thing I say to them is the Lord

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Speaker 2: has need of you. That was my getting them. I'd

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Speaker 2: hear a voice in the in the dining room and

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Speaker 2: I said, I need that's the exact voice I need

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Speaker 2: for this role, and so the place became so huge

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Speaker 2: that the people on the outside started getting tickets to

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Speaker 2: come into the prison. I am not kidding.

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Speaker 1: That's great.

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Speaker 2: When I left, I just this last prison. I went

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Speaker 2: to Aliceville. I got Alabama, in Alabama.

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Speaker 1: Which is three and a half four hours southeast, So

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Speaker 1: you got home.

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Speaker 2: I got closer home. I was there five years cards

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Speaker 2: well fifteen the other prison, you know, in some change

303
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Speaker 2: a few months over those years everywhere at the different places.

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Speaker 2: But I went back to Aliceville to be their keynote

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Speaker 2: speaker at a graduation in October.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get to that.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So you're in Aliceville.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm in Aliceville, and you're.

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Speaker 1: Still doing You're trying to make value of your life

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Speaker 1: and affect positively this population that you're a part of. Right,

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Speaker 1: They really which is incarcerated women.

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Speaker 2: Incarcerated women. They really helped me though, Bill. It's something

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Speaker 2: about when you serve other people, when you try to

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Speaker 2: encourage them, you encourage yourself.

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Speaker 1: Man. We talk about it every single show, But you

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Speaker 1: get a thousand times more out of this kind of

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Speaker 1: work than you put into it too.

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Speaker 2: You honestly do.

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Speaker 1: But you're doing that and you're an Aliceville, but you

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Speaker 1: still you have no hope of getting out.

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Speaker 2: No, I've been trying hope of.

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Speaker 1: Life in prison. You're gonna make the best of it.

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Speaker 2: But I never stop fighting. I was still foul emotions

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Speaker 2: and getting denied. My family was still rock steady right

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Speaker 2: there beside me, fighting with me. My daughters went to

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Speaker 2: the White House to different convenience. My sisters were doing

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Speaker 2: proud visuals, candlelight visuals, bringing attention. So I started, and.

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Speaker 1: Nobody says you didn't deserve some jail time. Fortune I

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Speaker 1: never say nobody. But all they're saying.

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Speaker 2: Is it's too much life.

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Speaker 1: And yet in twenty one years, seven months and ten

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Speaker 1: days you released. Yes, how did that happen?

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Speaker 2: I started speaking at different colleges.

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Speaker 1: From prison, which is crazy.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy. They skyped me into Yale University to speak

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Speaker 2: to the law students and.

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Speaker 1: You're speaking about prison reform.

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Speaker 2: I'm speaking about clemency. I'm putting my face out here

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Speaker 2: and telling my story.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting that the prisons would have even allow you

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Speaker 1: to do that.

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Speaker 2: They did it, It wasn't. In fact, they would clear

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Speaker 2: the room and they would tell the other prisoners be

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Speaker 2: quiet because miss Johnson is speaking at this place, and

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Speaker 2: of course.

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Speaker 1: The prisoner knew who you were, so they would actually

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Speaker 1: be quiet for you.

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Speaker 2: Oh they did. They. I had a lot of children,

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Speaker 2: because women at female prisons you don't really have gangs.

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Speaker 2: You have families. And I had a bunch of kids.

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Speaker 1: All right, So now you're from prison talking about clemency,

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Speaker 1: prison reform, truth and sentencing.

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Speaker 2: All of this, Students lost students that got you. The conspiracy, yeah,

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Speaker 2: all that that ugly word.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you're talking.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about this, but the prison said, miss Johnson,

358
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Speaker 2: you will let you do these things as long as

359
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Speaker 2: you don't speak negatively about the prison. Well, of course

360
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Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that, because, like Joseph, everything

361
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Speaker 2: that was done was placed in my hand because it

362
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 2: would be excellent. Even the staff things that they're having events,

363
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Speaker 2: get Miss Johnson to help with some ideals. I'd end

364
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Speaker 2: up getting putting the whole thing together. And so I

365
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: was no trouble. I was never been in trouble in prison.

366
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Speaker 2: I was very trustworthy. The things that I did were

367
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Speaker 2: putting plays on. None of that was ever for sale

368
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Speaker 2: on the compound. I was squeaky clean, as they say,

369
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Speaker 2: a model prisoner. I'm taking all these classes even though

370
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Speaker 2: I have a life sentence. I'm leading the pack getting

371
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Speaker 2: people to sign up for classes. I'm taking them electrical.

372
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Speaker 2: I'm afraid of fire, and I take electrical.

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Speaker 1: I said something I've always wondered, Do prison guards know

374
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Speaker 1: what you did? Do they have your rap sheet? So

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Speaker 1: even prison guards know.

376
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Speaker 2: They wanted me to go home, That's my question. They

377
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,360
Speaker 2: did the prison guards when I came out, they were

378
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Speaker 2: so happy, they were so happy.

379
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Speaker 1: Prison the guards themselves knew.

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Speaker 2: You today they didn't And every time they see someone

381
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Speaker 2: get clemency, get free, they would be so sad and

382
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 2: it's gonna be your time or either miss Appas say,

383
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 2: got to see who you are. You have no business

384
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 2: here and people. I think that gave people a hope too,

385
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 2: because when they found out, the women who had short

386
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 2: sentences found out that I had a life sentence, it

387
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 2: was like, she's either crazy or.

388
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Speaker 1: This lady's crazy. But anyway, you're speaking at college.

389
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Speaker 2: I'm speaking at colleges. I spoke of a YouTube and

390
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Speaker 2: Google event on criminal justice, and someone heard me speak.

391
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Speaker 2: He said. He walked in late but when he walked in,

392
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Speaker 2: he sees me up on this big screen. He hears

393
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Speaker 2: my voice, and he said, we have got to get

394
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Speaker 2: her to do a video op ed. Do you think

395
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Speaker 2: that's possible. I had never done that before, but I

396
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 2: did the video op ed. It went viral. I didn't

397
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: even know what the word viral meant. I thought I

398
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 2: had introduced the virus into the Internet.

399
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Speaker 1: But the other thing is do you have access to

400
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Speaker 1: that in the prison?

401
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, we had. We had gotten video visitation, okay, and

402
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 2: so that's what I would be in there doing it

403
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: at a time that people weren't there.

404
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 1: I got it. So this thing goes viral. It goes viral,

405
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 1: and somebody whose name we.

406
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 2: Heard, somebody whose name that many people know, saw it

407
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: to second Day and she saw it and she tweeted out,

408
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 2: this is so unfair. She retweeted it, and it went

409
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: from being viral to Kim Kardashian made it go superviral,

410
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 2: over ten million views, and she contacted her attorney to

411
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 2: find me to ask me if I wanted to get

412
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Speaker 2: out of jail, wanted her to hire her to get

413
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 2: me out of jail. I saidt me think about it, yes,

414
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 2: And so you know, the rest is kind of history.

415
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: Kim, Well, hold it. There's a white Kim Kardashian cannot

416
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: get you out of it.

417
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 2: That's what I'm getting ready to tell you now, that

418
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 2: history part. Kim contacted Ivanka Trump, who showed my case

419
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: to jet and this is the first time that anyone

420
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 2: has peeled back the layer and actually read what I did.

421
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: And they went to work. They called themselves Team Alice.

422
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 2: Kim hired new lawyers. She brought in new lawyers to

423
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: put different set of eyes on it. She brought in

424
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: a local attorney here in Memphis, Mike Show, to see

425
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: what he could do through the courts. And the other

426
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 2: three were to fight to help prepare clemency paperwork and

427
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: fight for that. So for seven months they kept trying

428
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: to get an audience with President Trump. On my birthday,

429
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: they foundly Gadt and Kim and Sean Holly went to

430
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 2: the White House and met with the President. And seven

431
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: days later I was running across that road free.

432
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Speaker 1: That day that that you have your prayers answered, and you, honestly,

433
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: most people would have thought never happened, and you get

434
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: out of prison. What was that like for you? Would

435
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: it feel like.

436
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: Well, the day that I got the news that I

437
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 2: was getting clemency, it was Hamburger.

438
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Speaker 1: Day, Hamburger.

439
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: It was a Wednesday, and that's the only time that

440
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 2: we got hamburger.

441
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: So I was also a hamburger a treat.

442
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 2: Oh yes, it was a treat to get a hamburger.

443
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: What was the other food?

444
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: You don't want to know?

445
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, mystery me.

446
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 2: Hamburger, Hamburger and chicken Day. We're things that I look

447
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 2: forward to. But I just wanted to feel normal, and

448
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: the women were so excited because my face is all

449
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: on the news, said it might happen today. And as

450
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 2: soon as I took that bike bill, they called my

451
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: name to return back to the unit. And when I

452
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: got the news, it was Kim Kardashian who told me

453
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 2: she thought I knew that I was going home. All

454
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 2: the women were screaming because I was screaming, And an

455
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 2: hour and a half later, I heard my name over

456
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: the tercom Alice Marie Johnson report to R and D.

457
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: What's R and D?

458
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 2: It's released it it's where you get released from. I've

459
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 2: forgotten what the das it's released. Everyone knows that R

460
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: and D is where you are real.

461
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: So the whole jail knew you're gone.

462
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: They know they knew, so they were screaming. They had

463
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 2: locked the whole compound down. I didn't know it that

464
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,719
Speaker 2: all these reporters were out there from all over the country.

465
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: They had satellites, so they didn't want they had locked

466
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,239
Speaker 2: everyone down for me to walk across the compound. So

467
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: when I started walking down the stairs, they started stomping. First,

468
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: it was three building. It how sixteen hundred women told them,

469
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 2: they're all stomping. They're stomping. And as I start going

470
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: down the stairs, they could see me when I cause

471
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 2: I was on the top. As I'm exiting my building,

472
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: women in every window had their cups beating the window,

473
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: and the stomping got louder and louder and louder. It

474
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: really and truly sounded like an earthquake. It felt like

475
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: the ground was shaking and they were being and it's

476
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 2: almost like it with one chorus. They were screaming and crying,

477
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 2: Miss Alice, please don't forget about us. And when I

478
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: took my hands and put it over my heart and

479
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 2: made the motion that I was ripping my heart out

480
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 2: and throwing it to them, they went crazy. I'm telling you, Bill,

481
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: I think the ground was moving. And as I walked

482
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: out the door, the officers headed to R and D

483
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: were lined up in two different lines on either side

484
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: of the sidewalk, and they stood attention for me. You're kidding,

485
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: I I'm not kidding.

486
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: What an honor that both inmates and guards alike celebrated

487
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: your release.

488
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: They did. And as we passed through the lower security facility,

489
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: which was a camp, the same scene. All of the

490
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: women had left out of the camp because it was

491
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: a minimum out. They weren't locked up. They were all

492
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: out there with the guards. They were waving once again,

493
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: guards standing as I'm passing by, and the women were screaming,

494
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: saying I love you, miss Alice. Don't forget about us.

495
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: Even one of the ladies who came has come home now.

496
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: I didn't know what happened, but she fainted.

497
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: She was so overcome, And you made good on your word.

498
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: You hadn't forgot about it.

499
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: I have not fighting every day, for fighting every day for.

500
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: Do you pinch yourself?

501
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: I do still. I'm gonna tell you, Bill, the thing

502
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: that really lets me know that I'm really free, it's

503
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: when I wake up in the morning. I do this

504
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: every morning. I don't just jump up unless the phone

505
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 2: is ringed on some crisis is going on. I just

506
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 2: lay in my bed and look at the ceiling. I

507
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: do this every single morning. I look at the ceiling

508
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: because along looking in a bunk bed over my head,

509
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: and that kind of centers me that I really am free.

510
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after twenty one years, seven months

511
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: and ten days in prison that you might should have

512
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: been in prison for two years for maybe do you

513
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: ever dream or have flashbacks that you're still there?

514
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: Yes, I do.

515
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: That's trauma, it is.

516
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: There are certain things that I didn't realize how badly

517
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: I could be triggered, because when I came out, I

518
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: immediately started fighting for the freedom of others. Sometimes when

519
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: I read others cases to really get into the meet

520
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: of how I'm going to fight for them, that would

521
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: trigger me into a nightmare. Something that gave me one

522
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: of the worst nightmares though, was on October the seventh.

523
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: Of what year this year? Okay, the war?

524
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: When I saw the captives. I went to bed and

525
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: I was.

526
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: Sweet, mean Israel and you saw the the Hamaska is

527
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: catching the Israel.

528
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: Yes, when I saw this woman they had captured, and

529
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: I was shaking. I went to sleep that night and

530
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: I was that woman and I woke up. That was

531
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 2: the first time I have not just had a regular nightmare,

532
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: but had a crying, such a crying nightmare. I was

533
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 2: so broken. I woke myself up sobbing from seeing that.

534
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: There's a reason, I asked, I have to believe that

535
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: that's largely universe among people who spent an extended period

536
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: of time in jail.

537
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: It has it. There's no way that you can. It

538
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: is trauma to spend that time in prison and to

539
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 2: think that you just come out and you can you know,

540
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 2: some people say, don't look back. I have not only

541
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: looked back, I've gone back.

542
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: And how can you How can I get the I

543
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: get the perspective of don't look back, your life's ahead

544
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: of you whatever. But that's almost in the same vein

545
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: of if you're broken of the hood and you want

546
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: something off of your life, just pull yourself up by

547
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: your bootstraps. Which that sounds good, sounds good, but that

548
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: ain't the way it works.

549
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: It's not. Because we're hereing and we have memory, you can't.

550
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: I can't just erase my memory. But for me, Bill,

551
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: I actually did find purpose in prison. I actually did

552
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 2: find forgiveness others and forgiveness for myself too, having gone

553
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: there and been away from my children.

554
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: So when we first started talking, I said, repeated, actually,

555
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: something you told me before we went live, which is

556
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: your story is phenomenal. And everybody who's listened every day

557
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: we've talked about right now, not only is it a

558
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: lesson of redemption, it's a lesson of forgiveness, self forgiveness, determination,

559
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: being steadfast. It's a lesson of egos and family and addiction, sorrow,

560
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: loss of a child. It's just, you know, your life

561
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: is a lesson of just so much. But when I

562
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: asked you to put it in an elevator, bitch, you said,

563
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: and I'll repeat now, you want to humanize those who

564
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: are current society doesn't often necessarily humanize. And the reason

565
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 1: I asked you do you have flashbacks of the trauma

566
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 1: of incarceration. Everything else is because we talk about recidivism

567
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: and why And you know, the same PTSD that affects

568
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: marines and folks in our army when they come back

569
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: from war and they have a problem reacclimating back to

570
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: a non military society. That PTSD of that and a

571
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: former incarcerated returning citizen. The two PTSDs are different, for sure,

572
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: and the circumstances under which those people receive that trauma

573
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 1: is different. I'm not likening someone who served our country

574
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: in the military to a prisoner in that regard, but

575
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: the level of PTSD can be the same. It can

576
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: be and re entry and getting rid of that trauma,

577
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: even though you owed a data society, once that debt

578
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: society is paid. Where's society are supposed to be forgiving?

579
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: We're society are supposed to say, Okay, you did your job,

580
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: you did your time, But how does that person reacclimate

581
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 1: and how can they reacclimate when they are not in fact.

582
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: Humanost That's true. That's why I believe that I've been

583
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: given this honor of this huge platform because of the

584
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: way that I came home, the people who was involved

585
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 2: when I came home, but also the work that I've

586
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 2: done since I came home. I made a promise to

587
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: the women when I left that I would never forget

588
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: about them. I would never stop fighting for them. That

589
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: fight includes fighting for their children too, to stay out

590
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: of not to go to prison, And so I've really

591
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 2: lived up to that. I've been honored all over the world.

592
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: Honored at the United Nations as one of four women's

593
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 2: rights defenders, the only one from North America on International

594
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 2: Women's Day. I've been honored by Ebony magazine as one

595
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 2: of the one hundred most Powerful Blacks of America. I've

596
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 2: spoken on the Essence Power stage. I've spoken in other stages.

597
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: I went to Tokyo not long ago and someone, one

598
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 2: of the Dignitary's wives, recognized me and invited me to

599
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: come back and help them lunch. Criminal Justice Reform for

600
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: women the first one. So my voice has reached many.

601
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: My fight has been sincere There's no way that I

602
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 2: could go come out of that and just go and

603
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 2: just live life and have a good time and know

604
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 2: that there are people, women and men who are depending

605
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: upon me to be out here reminding people that there

606
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 2: are people just like me, that I'm not unique. There

607
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: are other people too who deserve a second chance. We

608
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 2: are a country that extends we want grace. We are

609
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 2: a country of second chances, a country that believes in redemption,

610
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 2: but somehow bill when it comes to prisoners, that same

611
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: grace is not extended. Instead of saying this person by

612
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: their name. They'll say that's a bank robber, and then

613
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: they dropped their heads in shame. Or that was that

614
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 2: former drug dealer. I saw some kids, some young men,

615
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: when I first got on what they call kan air.

616
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 2: This young man looked in my eyes. I was on

617
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: my way to prison, and he didn't even look as

618
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 2: though he was old enough to shave. He would shockle

619
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: because we had wig shackles, rich shackles, ankle shackles. Some

620
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: had on black boxes also, and our eyes caught for

621
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 2: just one moment. I wish I knew that could find

622
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 2: that young man, because it was that look in his

623
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: eyes and that just tear that rolled. He couldn't stop it,

624
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: just looking at me. I don't know who I reminded

625
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 2: him of. And then he just shook his head and

626
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 2: he kept shuffling on back to the back of the

627
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 2: plane as we were being transported. I never forgot his

628
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 2: face and the look in his eyes, and I thought

629
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 2: that was some kid. I don't know what he did,

630
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: but somewhere someone dropped him and then pick him up.

631
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 2: He fell through somebody's crack.

632
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: He probably never heard any applause.

633
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: She probably never heard it any applause. And I have

634
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 2: thought about him over the years, over and over, and

635
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: sometimes Bill, when I'm so tired, I can put images

636
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 2: back in my head that keeps driving me because I've

637
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 2: been given the gift of freedom.

638
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: Talk to me about the importance of the First Step Act.

639
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 2: The First Step Act was actually the first, the most

640
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: significant criminal justice reform in thirty years, and bipartisan.

641
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: By the way, look what our country did. They got

642
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 1: bipartisan at least one thing.

643
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the reason they called me the face of

644
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: it because my release. When people saw me, when the

645
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 2: president saw me, it changed hearts because I was not

646
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: the stereotypical.

647
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: And ironically enough, this President Trump were talking about. Yes,

648
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,439
Speaker 1: and a very divided, democratically controlled Congress that we're talking about,

649
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: they came together.

650
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 2: To overwhelmingly passed it. And even when President Trump was

651
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: endorsing it, he said, I asked for sentencing reform because

652
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: I don't want there to be another Alice Johnson. And

653
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: for that, over thirty thousand people have come home early.

654
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: And contrary to what is being said, they are not

655
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: the reason for the crime problem.

656
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: They're not, really, they are not.

657
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 2: So let me give you these statistics. Please do of

658
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: crime that has taking place in America. Those who came

659
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: out on the First Step Act account for point zero

660
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: one four three percent, not even a half a point

661
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: point zero one four percent of the people who are

662
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: incarcerated are going to one day come home because they're

663
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: going to be finished with their sentences. Would you rather

664
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: them come out through the First Step Act? That make

665
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 2: sure that they have gone through re entry programs, they're

666
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 2: prepared to re enter society. They don't just open the

667
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: door and say go home on the First Step Act.

668
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 2: They have to be carefully vetted to make sure that

669
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 2: they don't pose a safety risk in the community, to

670
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 2: make sure that they have the skills necessary to get

671
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,439
Speaker 2: a job. They connect them with others out there. They

672
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 2: do a lot of things for the people coming home

673
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 2: on the First Step Act. So, for those who are

674
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 2: crying to repeal the First Step at it is idiocracy,

675
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 2: It is insane.

676
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: It is duplicit as stupidity. It is for anyone, and

677
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: it's I know somewhere there's power and money behind those decisions,

678
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: because it's always got vower money.

679
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: It's got to be.

680
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: But I couldn't agree with you more. It is stupid

681
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: because if you're let out under the First Step Act,

682
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: you were probably going to be cleaner than folks that

683
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: had ever served any time. You do it right.

684
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 2: Their recentivism rate is less than a fourth of those

685
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: who are coming home anyway, and many of those are

686
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: technical violations that send them back to prison. They would

687
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 2: want everyone to go through what the people have to

688
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 2: go through who come out on the First Step Act.

689
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 2: So I I'm really champion championing their causes in the

690
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: process of telling the stories success stories of people who've

691
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 2: came out and made good of their second chance, because

692
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 2: somehow we have got to come back the narrative that

693
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 2: we need to go back to a punitive and not

694
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 2: a restorative type of model, because that is what we

695
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: need in this country right now. We are not the

696
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 2: worst country in the world, but our criminal justice issues

697
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: sure to the rest of the world, says that we

698
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 2: are the most evil counture in the world to incocerate

699
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: twenty five percent of the whole world. I am not

700
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 2: a hopeless person, me neither. I still believe. I still

701
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: believe in this nation.

702
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: We can't fix though what we don't understand.

703
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 2: We can't. But you know it starts with us.

704
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: You mean normal folks. Folks, we'll be right back. Tell

705
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: me about TAG.

706
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: TAG is an organization that I formed in twenty twenty

707
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: when KOBD hit because I was working on clemings. Yes,

708
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: and I had to be able to find the people.

709
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 2: It's called taking action for good. And I was able

710
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 2: to help so many people get their freedom because they

711
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 2: found me. I didn't have to go out and find them.

712
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 2: And then once I started seeing success, the first three

713
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 2: people who I helped gain their freedom with three of

714
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 2: my good friends in prison who didn't even know I

715
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: was working to help them gain their freedom. Wow, And

716
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 2: I started getting all of these petitions. No they have

717
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: not you know, we don't allow them to.

718
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: What do you do? Do not allow them to?

719
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 2: The ones who have come home, they become mentors for

720
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 2: the ones who are just coming home, so they have contact,

721
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: they have someone that they can ask what do I

722
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 2: do in this situation? That absolutely, but just even more

723
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: so than that, they were so vetted and we were

724
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: so connected with their families. And even now I've met

725
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: with different governors. I met with one governor and I

726
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 2: spoke talk to him about Jerryatric clemency for those who've

727
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: aged out of criminality who posed no risks, and he

728
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: let them go on his way out the door. And

729
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: I've been able to meet It's something when you meet

730
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 2: with someone, you look them in their eyes and you

731
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,439
Speaker 2: remind them, remind them because some have had a bad

732
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: experience and they forget that we live in an imperfect world.

733
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: It's so easy to say, this one over here came

734
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 2: out in the First Ship Act. Let me hold this

735
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: up as a reason you don't need to do it.

736
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: Or this one over here reoffended. Let me hold this up.

737
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 2: So easy to become jaded.

738
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one in.

739
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 2: Not many, but it's easy to become jaded.

740
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: I want to give you an opportunity to speak to

741
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: the devil's advocate that I'm going to give you right now. Okay,

742
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 1: crime is out of control in many of our cities,

743
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: and in Memphis it's up, and I mean it's up.

744
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 1: It's up New York, it's up, Chicago, it's up. Crime

745
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: is up. I mean the fact is, crime is up,

746
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: and the criminals are getting younger and younger, and frankly,

747
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: it's a little scary. It's getting more and more violent

748
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: at a lot of places. And we see stories all

749
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,240
Speaker 1: the time of smashing grabs, and in San Francisco, thirty

750
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: people breaking out the door of Macy's and running in

751
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: and grabbing stuff and leaving, and jewelers getting broken in

752
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: the middle of the day and they're smashing a grabbing

753
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: and taking jewelry. And you know, at some point, a

754
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: law abiding, tax paying trying to do it right, raise

755
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 1: your children, do the right thing. Citizens world surrounded by

756
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 1: all of us, gets scared. And when they're scared, they

757
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 1: default to the easy thing, which is Bill mooregells, lock

758
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: them up and keep them there forever, because you can't

759
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: do anything well. Quote these people you want to speak to.

760
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 2: That to paint everyone with this broad brush is so

761
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 2: wrong And just like the failed I'm gonna repeat that again,

762
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: the failed war on drugs, that is not the answer.

763
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 2: That is not the answer with the smash and grabs.

764
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 2: Is you've got to get in. We've got to not

765
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 2: be afraid. We've got to take the lead us grown folks.

766
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: We've got to take the lead. And it starts with

767
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: one community at a time. So you see, we're looking

768
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: at this as a whole and we think we can't

769
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 2: do anything.

770
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: It's a problem so huge, it's so.

771
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 2: Big, fear will paralyze you from making that first step

772
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 2: of just Okay, I'm gonna work in my neighborhood. I'm

773
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 2: gonna start with my neighborhood. I'm not gonna try to

774
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 2: solve the problems of every city in America. I'm gonna

775
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: start with my neighborhood. And let's us gather these kids up.

776
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 2: Let's us start doing something. Let's us start showing them

777
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 2: a better way. Let us get in their heads, and

778
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 2: let's find out what's driving them to do this. If

779
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 2: you can break up the kids and not just let

780
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 2: them go and say glad, it's not my kid, it

781
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 2: is your kid, because it's your neighborhood.

782
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: And it will be your problem, and.

783
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 2: It will be your problem. We I'm gonna repeat what

784
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 2: you what you saying for what ordinary people can do.

785
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 2: I know the power of the ordinary person. We're not

786
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 2: trying to be heroes, we're not trying to be famous.

787
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 2: We're just trying to make whatever difference we can make.

788
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: And it really it has to be us saying, yes,

789
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 2: I'm tired, I'm scared, but that's fear. It's going to

790
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: drive me to be a part of what's going to

791
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: be the solution for Memphis.

792
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 1: And clearly, if we're six percent of the world's population

793
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: and have twenty five percent of the total prison population

794
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 1: of the world and our crime is doubling, what we're

795
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: doing now ain't working.

796
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: It's not worth it.

797
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: So just like the laws I talked about that keep

798
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 1: families broke up, just like the truth and sentencing stuff

799
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: that is scary, Just like the mandatory drug laws. Well intentioned,

800
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: but they ain't working. So let's try something else.

801
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 2: And there are answers, but each community has a different answer.

802
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: Someone who's listening tonight is somebody's answer and they don't

803
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: even realize it.

804
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: That's beautiful one. I'm so inspired by you. What are

805
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: you doing now? What are you doing today? What are

806
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: you doing this week? What's on the agenda? What's next? Oh?

807
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 2: My agenda. I have a big family, A lot of

808
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: them are coming in for Christmas. Yep, we're gonna have

809
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: Christmas Dinner together. Then we're gonna have two days later,

810
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 2: we're gonna have a little Christmas swore. Ray for grown folks.

811
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 1: You gotta be over.

812
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 2: Thirty to come.

813
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: There ain't nothing wrong with that. Can anybody in your

814
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:27,280
Speaker 1: family cook like your mama?

815
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: I cook pretty good.

816
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: Now, really, what you're cooking? Are you cooking for Christmas?

817
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,959
Speaker 2: I'm cooking turkey. I may make breads, I make desserts.

818
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 2: I love to bake. So I'm a good old biscuit maker.

819
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 1: Yeah.

820
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 2: So one of them days they gonna come over to

821
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 2: my house and they gonna have some salmon crow kiss

822
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: and biscuits and some smothered potatoes and pork chops smothered

823
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: and gravy.

824
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: My wife, Yeah, make some of the best fried pork chops. Oh,

825
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: I love it, Bravy. I can need a mess of

826
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: out until I want to die. That's so good, you.

827
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 2: Know, Bill, I really I know you asked me a

828
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: little bit, but I just would like to ask the

829
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 2: listeners if they like to support some of the work

830
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 2: that I do.

831
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm going next.

832
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 2: But support us at Taking actionfo good dot org.

833
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: If someone wants to get involved with you, how do

834
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 1: they reach you?

835
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 2: They can reach me through I tech website. Just shoot

836
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: me a note. I can put them to work.

837
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 1: If someone out there has someone that's been in prison

838
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: far too long for something that they got it not

839
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: that they didn't earn the charge, but the sentencing is

840
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: too long and they're languishing in prison for something that

841
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: they have served their time for. Can they reach out

842
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: to you and find out how to absolutely.

843
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 2: Can taking actionfo good dot org. They can email tell

844
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: us about the case. Someone will answer them and I'll

845
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 2: get some details for them. But we really do need

846
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 2: some support right now because we are scaling up because

847
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 2: my next frontier, in addition to that, is going to

848
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 2: be I'm coming for the children to help them. I

849
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 2: want to be part of the answer right here in Memphis,

850
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,760
Speaker 2: righting Olive Branch. I want to be someone's answer.

851
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: The power of an army of normal people, from the

852
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 1: daughter of a sharecropper to someone who's been in front

853
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: of the United Nations and governors and Kim Kardashian and

854
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:42,240
Speaker 1: the Trumps and was the center of probably the most

855
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 1: effective bipartisan legislation we've had. We've figured out how to

856
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: muster in the last eight years. Alice Johnson, you are amazing.

857
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: You're redempt of your inspirational and I just cannot thank

858
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 1: you for your time.

859
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 2: Thank you, Coach Bill. I didn't expect to have this honor,

860
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 2: to be right here with mister undefeated himself. For Goshlcolm, Look,

861
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: I'm telling you. I'm telling you I'm a little starstruck.

862
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: Dope be starstrucks, Yes, a little bit. Thanks for thanks

863
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: for being with us, and Merry Christmas and Happiness Christmas

864
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: to you too. Thank you, and thank you for joining

865
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: us this week. If Alicebrae Johnson or another guest has

866
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: inspired you in general, or better yet, to take action

867
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 1: by donating, to taking action for good, by serving prisoners,

868
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: by fighting for criminal justice reform, or something else entirely,

869
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 1: please let me know. I'd love to hear about it.

870
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 1: You can write me anytime at Bill at normalfolks dot us,

871
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 1: and I'm telling you I will respond and keep emailing

872
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: us all the story ideas. It's been unbelievably helpful and

873
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: satisfying to tell these stories that come organically from you

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Speaker 1: the army. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it

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00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,240
Speaker 1: with friends that are on social, subscribe to the podcast,

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00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: rate and review it, become a premium member at normalfolks

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00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 1: dot us. All of these things that will help us

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Speaker 1: grow an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll

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Speaker 1: see you next week.