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Speaker 1: If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underware listeningst you can't

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Speaker 1: predict anything brought to you by first Light. When I'm hunting,

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Speaker 1: I need gear that won't quit. First light builds, no compromise,

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Speaker 1: gear that keeps me in the field longer, no shortcuts,

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Speaker 1: just gear that works. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: That's f I R S T L I T E

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 1: I got two things of major interest, well three things

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Speaker 1: if you count Phil. Phil printed off the script of Christmas.

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Speaker 1: What do they call that?

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Speaker 3: A Christmas Carol?

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Speaker 1: Christmas? Carrol printed the script off. He's been highlighting his lines.

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Speaker 1: Who are you? Who are you playing? Cratch It?

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Speaker 3: Cratch It? Yeah, God, seems like you play Robert cratch It.

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Speaker 3: He was only a matter of time.

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Speaker 1: They didn't try to get you for Scrooge.

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Speaker 3: Uh, surprisingly not No, I think maybe a few more years,

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Speaker 3: wait till I get in the forties.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a joke. I don't think he'd be

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Speaker 1: a Scrooge. Yeah, you know what I could picture you being?

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Speaker 3: Know what's that?

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Speaker 1: You know what he might be good at? You know

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Speaker 1: the guy that like the that he's he's like the

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Speaker 1: nephew and he's trying to get him. He's trying to

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Speaker 1: get Scrooge fired up about Christmas, but then like Scrooge

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Speaker 1: catches him, goofing on him.

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Speaker 3: M They they tried to get me to play Fred

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Speaker 3: two years ago.

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Speaker 2: You know your first name Basis.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: You wanted you wanted more of a role.

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Speaker 3: No, I was. I was doing a different place.

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Speaker 2: So it's just ya out there. God, just what is uh?

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Speaker 1: What is want to crash its big lines?

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Speaker 3: Oh, he doesn't have a lot of big lines. He's

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Speaker 3: he's just kind of like the anchor for like, you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of the moral moral anchor. Yeah, that's the word. Good.

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Speaker 1: Phil won't be able to do that.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Probably the worst part about your what you got coming up?

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Speaker 1: If I had to say.

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Speaker 3: Here, I'm just I I would just like to say

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Speaker 3: I love how involved and interested you are in this

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Speaker 3: whole process.

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Speaker 1: Oh, because I will be there my wife like without

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Speaker 1: even knowing you're in it. My wife will be like

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Speaker 1: alerting the family soon about what day this is happening,

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Speaker 1: but what like we will be there.

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Speaker 2: So I want to make sure when I get.

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Speaker 1: There, I know what's going on sure, so I can

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Speaker 1: whisper and be like, well, actually Phil doesn't even like

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Speaker 1: this part, or this guy kind of bugs Phil, you know,

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Speaker 1: like he Phil wasn't very happy with this actor.

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Speaker 3: I'll spill all the details.

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Speaker 2: Along the way.

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Speaker 1: But what might be challenging to you is because you

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Speaker 1: have your own kids.

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Speaker 3: I do, one of them's in the play with me, Steve. Oh,

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Speaker 3: he's playing my son. No, he's he's the middle child.

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Speaker 3: He's he's there's there's a there's an older daughter of

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Speaker 3: Cratchet's a middle boy, and then tiny Tim m he's

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Speaker 3: playing the middle boy.

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Speaker 1: What I was gonna say it could be a problem

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Speaker 1: for you is because you got to deal with your

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Speaker 1: own kids all the time. You might not want to

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Speaker 1: go down there and need to deal with this whatever

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Speaker 1: kid it is playing Tiny Tim. You might be like,

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Speaker 1: so sort of consumed with your own kids and what

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Speaker 1: they got going on. Then all of a sudden you

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Speaker 1: got to get sort of like intimately familiar with this

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Speaker 1: other kid while trying to take care of your kids.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's that's kind of crash. Its big scene is

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Speaker 3: that he's got he's got to kind of break down

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Speaker 3: over the death of Tiny Tim in one of the scenes.

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Speaker 3: That's the Oh I forgot that.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's a good thing that your kids

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Speaker 2: aren't cast as tiny tim because they're too healthy, they're

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Speaker 2: too robust, strapping young men.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, my little boy. You know how Matthew's on

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Speaker 1: crutches for six months?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, were you making a bunch of tiny Tim?

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Speaker 1: Well, he's he's a very agreeable young man, very agreeable.

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Speaker 1: So well while he was on and crouches, that was

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Speaker 1: his nickname because he he's so agreeable. Yeah, just a

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Speaker 1: cheery little fellah.

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Speaker 2: Not you know, he's not disgruntled. Yeah, that's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well keeps posted. Will Maybe maybe, Randall, maybe you

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Speaker 1: and your wife would like to go with us.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to. I don't go to the theater enough.

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Speaker 1: You don't take in much theater. Well, I take in

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Speaker 1: one play.

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Speaker 2: I went to Christmas Carrol, I went to film shows.

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Speaker 2: I went to Phil's last production and it was lovely

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Speaker 2: and I was I was seated right behind JK. Simmons,

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Speaker 2: famous Montana JK. Simmons, and he loved it.

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Speaker 1: He did.

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Speaker 2: Every time Phil made a joke. I looked at JK.

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Speaker 2: Simmons and he.

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Speaker 1: Was just a you know what, I don't think. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm not knocking on film. I don't think that that

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Speaker 1: was I don't think it was genuine. No, I think

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Speaker 1: that he knew. He's like a big famous theater guy,

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Speaker 1: and he's in theater, and so he's got to act

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Speaker 1: like he's into it.

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Speaker 3: I think he just might be part of it.

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Speaker 2: But I think he's so into it that, you know,

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Speaker 2: any good theater he gets, it's just like a shot

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Speaker 2: of life into his blood, you know.

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Speaker 1: So like little date night, Well, it's gonna be kind

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Speaker 1: of like a weird date night for you because it'll

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Speaker 1: be me like me and my wife and you and

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Speaker 1: your wife.

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Speaker 2: That'll feel normal. But then they'll be my children. That

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Speaker 2: sounds like a normal outing for us. Yeah, because often

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Speaker 2: we don't bring children to anything. Yeah, because it wouldn't

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Speaker 2: work for us.

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Speaker 1: Like she's gonna make them go, Yeah they won't, you know, sure, sure,

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Speaker 1: don't don't fill them. They're not gonna.

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Speaker 3: I was eleven year old once as well.

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Speaker 1: It's like I'm not gonna want to, but they'll be

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Speaker 1: down there.

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Speaker 2: I mean I've been I've been workshopping with Phil's as

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Speaker 2: to how we can graft sort of the structure of

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Speaker 2: a Christmas Carol onto the live tour.

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Speaker 3: I think it's brilliant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we can have ghosts of hunting season, past, hunting season, present,

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Speaker 2: hunting season future.

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Speaker 3: Well you can appear this is gonna air random and

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Speaker 3: that this doesn't happen, there's going to be some disappointed

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Speaker 3: fans in the audience.

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Speaker 2: So, well, whatever we come up with will have to

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Speaker 2: be equally good or better. I don't I don't imagine.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is a great idea. I'm just gonna

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Speaker 2: say that. But whatever whatever replaces it or supplants it

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Speaker 2: will be better.

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Speaker 1: So Clay's planning on having Brent Reeves Fry Bluegills on

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Speaker 1: stage every night.

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Speaker 2: I know I like that, but.

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Speaker 1: And I like it too. But you either got to

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Speaker 1: decide you're gonna bring it up with the venue and

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Speaker 1: then they're gonna have like the They're gonna have like

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Speaker 1: the fire department down there, and.

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Speaker 3: They're gonna say, our very expensive and thick curtains are

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Speaker 3: gonna smell like fish for the next three months.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or you don't bring it up and see what happens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Uh, you know what's gonna tickle Phil's fancy he's gonna

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Speaker 1: get gell us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I want to do a thing, Phil, and we're already

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Speaker 1: setting this into motion. I'm gonna do a thing where

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Speaker 1: it's called Interviews with a black.

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Speaker 3: Bear and who's the black bear?

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Speaker 2: I haven't cast it yet.

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Speaker 3: Is there gonna be a whole time gonna be called backs,

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Speaker 3: do some scene tests?

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Speaker 1: Because if I could interview any animal in the world,

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Speaker 1: I would interview a black bear about like what he's

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Speaker 1: up to, what he was thinking? You're like, like when

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Speaker 1: you ate the gear oil, like what you know? Like

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Speaker 1: like I could see the first sip, right, You're like,

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Speaker 1: I can see why you might take a sip, but

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Speaker 1: then but you kept eating.

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Speaker 2: It is the twentieth trash can curiosity? Or is it

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Speaker 2: just you can't break the habit? You know?

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Speaker 3: You throw out black bears as an example, Steve. But

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Speaker 3: I think if this, you know, takes off, I think

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Speaker 3: going through a bunch of different animals would be very

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Speaker 3: It would be a funny series. Interview with a turkey,

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Speaker 3: interview with a with a dove.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like if you interviewed a black bear. If you

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Speaker 1: could interview like a black beard that finds like Clay

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Speaker 1: Newcome's bait barrel. Yeah, okay, and then he slowly put

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Speaker 1: like it'd be like, okay, well, dude, when you first

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Speaker 1: found the bait barrel, didn't you think it was a

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Speaker 1: little like a little suspicious. Yeah, all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: and he's like, here's a bear.

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Speaker 2: He's like, you know, things hadn't really been going well

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Speaker 2: for me lately, and I thought maybe my luck had

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Speaker 2: finally changed.

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Speaker 1: And like yeah, and you knows, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: there's like a platform up in a tree like by

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Speaker 1: like does this stuff you know?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, register or like a black bear that finds his

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Speaker 2: way into a convenience store and he's caught on the

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Speaker 2: close circuit television.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, did you know.

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Speaker 2: You were at risk?

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Speaker 3: So is this is this a bear that is is

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Speaker 3: post mortem? Like like it's a no, no no.

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Speaker 1: That's why I like it's going to be a bear

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Speaker 1: to his like his buddy gets their Yeah, I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna like bring a bear back from the dead.

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Speaker 2: You could do you could do a repetitive series and

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Speaker 2: anytime a black bear is in the news, you just

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Speaker 2: have the God I can't catch a break. Honestly, my

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Speaker 2: fan only so embarrassed.

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Speaker 1: Here here's the everything that will How did I What

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Speaker 1: did I say? There's three things of interest? It doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: I just got off the phone. I'm trying to Here's

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Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do. You guys ever preview radio live segments.

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Speaker 1: We hold we hold this up. Phil said you can

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Speaker 1: hold this somewhere. So I want to preview. I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to get an interview with a guy I don't even

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Speaker 1: want to say who. I just spoke to a wildlife

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Speaker 1: enforcement agent. I don't want to spoil anything. I got

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Speaker 1: to fill out like a form. I got to fill

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Speaker 1: out a thing to try to get him permission to

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Speaker 1: speak to us. He's got to take it to the suits.

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Speaker 1: So I don't want to blow it. Yeah, I just

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Speaker 1: got I just did ire my pre interview. Hold that up?

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Speaker 1: Real nice. What Randall's holding is a wild mink pelt.

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Speaker 1: Did you know?

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Speaker 2: How's that feel? It's like a shiny Should I bring it?

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Speaker 1: Did you know? Did you know that if you if

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Speaker 1: you go in and buy fake eyelashes, there is a chance.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to put statistics on it, but there

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Speaker 1: is a very I'm not saying a probability, but a

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Speaker 1: light like a good chance that when you buy fake eyelashes.

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Speaker 1: It is mink, not advertised as but it is actually mink.

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Speaker 1: And when you put that up and look at it, yeah,

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Speaker 1: my god, does that look like a nice eyelash. I

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Speaker 1: don't like that. Look just a big fake eyelash. Look. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not my style. But you know it's popular.

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Speaker 2: Yep, we'll probably fake I feel like it. I feel

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Speaker 2: like it came into popularity.

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Speaker 1: I feel like but it already went.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's way popular, like in twenty years. If you're

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Speaker 1: dressing up for Halloween and you're dressing up as a

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five person for Halloween, you're gonna glue on

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Speaker 1: big fake eyelash, sure, and people will be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I remember that.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, uh, mink are just striking.

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Speaker 1: And I was wondering is that like enough to drive

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Speaker 1: up the mink market. But then, man, think about how

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Speaker 1: many eyelashes are hide in that thing right there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing but it. You could do the whole town.

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Speaker 1: You could give every woman in town new eyelashes with

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Speaker 1: this mink.

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Speaker 2: We should try to make We should take a sliver,

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Speaker 2: like a dental flos sized sliver off the side of

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Speaker 2: that and try to make a set of uh, fake

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Speaker 2: eyelashes for someone.

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Speaker 1: In what they do when they're testing. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to blow the interview. I wanted to give this last

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Speaker 1: little tidbit away against my better judgment. When they're testing

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Speaker 1: a shipment, guess guess what the test is that I

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Speaker 1: already tell you what the test did, and I like it.

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Speaker 1: Take a cigarette lighter.

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Speaker 2: Smell like hair.

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Speaker 1: If it smells like burnt hair, it'll either smell like

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Speaker 1: burning petroleum based or it'll be like, oh, that's burnt hair.

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Speaker 1: That is a mink greake eyelashes made from a mink.

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Speaker 2: And what I won't be.

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Speaker 1: Able to tell you even when we do the interview,

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Speaker 1: I won't be able to tell you the country of origin.

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Speaker 2: It's not known.

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Speaker 1: We're not knowing if these mink are American cop mink

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Speaker 1: or European wild mink. Third thing of interest, can you

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Speaker 1: put the photo film?

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Speaker 2: Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: This is a tremendous interest. You got your thing handy,

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Speaker 1: I do. Randall and I just did a probably one

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Speaker 1: of the best, probably our best piece of video work

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Speaker 1: ever in terms of what I think is interesting. Phil

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Speaker 1: has a picture held up of me and Randall here

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Speaker 1: holding two it's the big hunks of fat that come

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Speaker 1: off the back of a buffalo. It's called the depoey,

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Speaker 1: the depouey French. If you imagine like picture that you

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Speaker 1: pull the hide off a deer, because more people have

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Speaker 1: done that than pulled the hide off a buffalo. Hat

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Speaker 1: off deer, and he's got like the big caps of

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Speaker 1: fat on a real healthy deer, the big caps of

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Speaker 1: fat that lay over the backstrap. But these are in

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Speaker 1: this picture we're holding up. These are like giant slabs

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Speaker 1: of fat removed from over the backstrap and hump of

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Speaker 1: a buffalo.

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Speaker 2: And working on.

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Speaker 1: The latest installation of meat Eater's American history, The Hide Hunters,

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five to eighteen eighty three, we ran across

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Speaker 1: this passage which doctor Randall's share with you.

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Speaker 2: Another important article of food, the equal of which is

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Speaker 2: not to be had except from the buffalo, is dupoyer

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Speaker 2: or depeuwey depewy. It is a fat substance that lies

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Speaker 2: along the backbone next to the hide, running from the

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Speaker 2: shoulder blade to the last rib, and is about as

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Speaker 2: thick as one's hand or finger. It is from seven

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Speaker 2: to eleven inches broad, tapering to a feather edge on

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Speaker 2: the lower side. It will weigh from five to eleven

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Speaker 2: pounds according to the size and condition of the animal.

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Speaker 2: This substance has taken off and dipped in hot grease

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Speaker 2: for half a minute, then is hung up inside of

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Speaker 2: a lodge to dry and smoke for twelve hours. It

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Speaker 2: will keep indefinitely and is used as a substitute for bread,

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Speaker 2: but is superior to any bread that was ever made.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we made it. We made a whole video about

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Speaker 1: making it. We followed those instructions.

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Speaker 2: Why do people say to the tea, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: We followed them to the great question. You want to

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Speaker 1: know why the whole nine yards? You know what that means? No,

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Speaker 1: it's like the in a peeth? Is it was that?

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Speaker 1: What was that like spitfire P thirty eight airplane in

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Speaker 1: World War Two?

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Speaker 2: Uh? Is it a P thirty eight? A P thirty

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Speaker 2: eight is a thunderbolt? I believe.

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Speaker 1: Oh, well, you know the Nate Mason, Yeah, big army guy.

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Speaker 3: Hm.

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Speaker 1: He was telling me that that that belt, that machine belt,

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Speaker 1: the animal belt twenty.

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Speaker 2: Seven feet long.

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Speaker 1: So to give him the whole nine yards is to

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Speaker 1: give him twenty seven feet am or out of that aircraft, gotcha. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why people follow stuff to the tea.

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Speaker 1: We filed it to the t and I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: tell you what happened, you know how I tease the

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Speaker 1: mak thing with I'm not telling the secrets. I'm not

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Speaker 1: telling the secrets of what happened with our depui. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this project is sitting with Seth Morris right now, who's

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Speaker 1: editing it.

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Speaker 2: I had a crisis of confidence in my answer the

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Speaker 2: p third eight is the lightning, Just correcting myself.

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Speaker 1: So going back there, and I did fact check Nate

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Speaker 1: Mason on that he takes a lot of pride and

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Speaker 1: being able to offer up little things like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now that I feel like I have heard that somewhere.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of pride in that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: If he waves you down, you know, on the staircase

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Speaker 1: or something, it's going to be to tell you like

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Speaker 1: a little tidbit, or to correct you.

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Speaker 2: About something you got wrong. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh, here's an interesting one. Now we're gonna get We're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk a whole bunch more about Buffalo because we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the hide Hunter era.

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Speaker 3: Really quick, just before you get into this and can

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Speaker 3: completely derail you. David says that there's no consensus about

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Speaker 3: where to a tea comes from, but the best accepted

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Speaker 3: candidate candidate, is that it's a shortened version of to

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Speaker 3: a tittle. The word tittle refers to those tiny little

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Speaker 3: editions you have to make when writing letters like a

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Speaker 3: like dotting an I or a JA or crossing a T.

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Speaker 1: Hmmmm, that's not like something Bob Crash did say.

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Speaker 2: To the tidy tim But sir, it's Christmas. Is that

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Speaker 2: a Bob Cratchit line?

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Speaker 3: Yes, it is, Actually he does. He tries, He tries

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Speaker 3: to leave right at the stroke of five or six,

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Speaker 3: and Screwge gives gives him a dirty look and he says,

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Speaker 3: but sir, it's Christmas.

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Speaker 1: Oh God bless it's the biggest goose.

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Speaker 2: In all of London.

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Speaker 1: Here's a really good one that a guy is sent in.

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Speaker 1: We have done one of these in a while. First

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Speaker 1: of this guy starts off by saying he's rarely heard

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Speaker 1: our team prep pet that points to me passed up

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to discover argue about semantics. So check this out.

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Speaker 1: This this cannot stand. This guy recently moved to South Carolina,

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Speaker 1: gets to study in the state hunting rags just to

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Speaker 1: get a grip on what's going on, okay, and he

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Speaker 1: notices within South Carolina's hunting rags that they have an

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Speaker 1: explicitly stated still hunt season, still hunt season. Now, ask

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Speaker 1: any American boy what still hunting is and what are

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Speaker 1: they going to tell you?

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Speaker 2: Creeping quietly through the woods yep, slowly, slowly, slowly, shaving

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Speaker 2: a deer before it sees you.

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Speaker 1: Take a couple of steps, yep, stop and listen. Take

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Speaker 1: a couple steps, stop and listen. Still hunting. So he's like,

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Speaker 1: why would they have a season where you can only

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Speaker 1: still hunt? So he calls Fish and Game to say,

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Speaker 1: what's up with how you can? Like?

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Speaker 2: Why?

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Speaker 1: Why? Why are you saying like you can only hunt

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Speaker 1: this method? You mean you can't you can't stand hunt

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Speaker 1: during the still hunt season, to which they say, no,

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Speaker 1: you dummy. Still hunting is hunting without a dog. It

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Speaker 1: is the no dog season.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Who in the world?

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Speaker 2: I would have just called it quiet?

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Speaker 1: I call it no dog time?

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Speaker 2: Right, a good song?

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Speaker 1: I call it no dog Time?

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Speaker 2: Like is it a sandy song or is it like

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Speaker 2: an upbeat pop song?

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00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:51,600
Speaker 1: No, it's like a country party song. Parties it's any

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Speaker 1: parties song. Yeah, that's a great one. That's a great one.

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Speaker 1: I have never but it might be the like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you would like, I'd be curious. I

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Speaker 1: don't beat a dog on it because I'd be curious.

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Speaker 2: That's good.

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Speaker 3: Oh there I was with already halfway through the lyrics.

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Speaker 2: Okay, here, man, I didn get into this.

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Speaker 1: Now I get into this. I was with dan and

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Speaker 1: read Isbel okay from God's Country podcast, and we're eating this.

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Speaker 1: We're in this restaurant and they got like a paddlefish eggs,

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Speaker 1: paddlefish caviar and I'm eating mine and I get a

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Speaker 1: little bit of that caviar on my upper lip, like

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Speaker 1: and it's like Marilyn Monroe's birthmark. Dan Isbel goes, Marilyn Monroe.

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Speaker 2: That's good.

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Speaker 1: But then there was like I everyone at the table

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Speaker 1: detected a pause before he like did like a gotcha yeah.

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00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,920
Speaker 1: And the debate was did he know or did it

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Speaker 1: only occur that he was going off the birthmark? And

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Speaker 1: said Marylyn because MARYL. Monroe has.

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Speaker 2: Did he know.

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00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,960
Speaker 1: Before the delivery? The row connection. So we wanted to

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Speaker 1: get the security camera footage from within the restaurant to

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Speaker 1: see if like when the twinkle in his I felt

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Speaker 1: the twinkle was like delayed, like he goes like marily

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Speaker 1: Monroe and then and then does a hah yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: But he's like, no, I knew all along. That's why

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Speaker 1: I said it.

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Speaker 3: I don't buy it.

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Speaker 2: I don't buy it for no one bought it. No.

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Speaker 1: I was like, there was like you said it, and

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Speaker 1: then there was like a beat and then it.

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Speaker 2: Hit Yeah, I'm I'm dubious.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm still impressed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great. Why was that talking about her dogs?

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Speaker 1: Dogs?

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Speaker 2: You don't mean to dog on the Why about I

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Speaker 2: got talking about the row? Well the way he did

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Speaker 2: one of those, he said, well I just did one.

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Speaker 2: He said, I don't mean a dog. That what it was.

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Speaker 1: That's what it was. So Marylyman, Now, I would be

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Speaker 1: curious if you went to dog hunting states. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I honestly don't know the answer that this

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Speaker 1: people can write in like if I went to a

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Speaker 1: dog hunting state, So I go to Arkansas, right South Carolina,

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Speaker 1: there are many left, which I've makes me a little

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Speaker 1: bit sad. Uh And I said, hey, I'm gonna still

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Speaker 1: hunt like or well they people said that, how'd you

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Speaker 1: get that buck? And I said, oh, I was like,

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Speaker 1: stile still hunting. Would they be like, huh, he was

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Speaker 1: hunting without dogs?

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Speaker 2: Or would they be like he was actually still hunting?

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00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? You know what I'm saying.

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00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, if it's a universal convention in states that

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Speaker 2: have dog hunting, that's still hunting. Is hunting without dogs?

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Speaker 1: Or do even dog guys look at the rags and

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Speaker 1: they're like.

444
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 2: What Yeah, they could have pretty much picked any other

445
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 2: descriptor there and it would have caused less confusion.

446
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 1: Here's another quick one. This is good think him in

447
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: an obscure question, Steve may be uniquely equipped to answer.

448
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 1: And I gotta tell you right off the bat, I'm

449
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: gonna let you down home, buddy. But it's good. There's

450
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: a phenomenal book that I recommend anyone out there called

451
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 1: Shadows on the Koyukuk. It's about the It's about a

452
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 1: Koya Khan. So the Koya Khan people.

453
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:31,400
Speaker 2: Are are like a like a tribe.

454
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 1: It wouldn't beat that, but like a tribe of Native Alaskans,

455
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 1: and they and and these Native Alaskans, the Koyu Khan

456
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 1: people are centered around the Koyukuk River which flows into

457
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 1: the Yukon River. Sydney Huntington is a is a koya

458
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: Kan man and Shadows on the Koyakok is like his

459
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 1: story of growing up on the river. It's it's a

460
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: phenomenal book. In the book, there's this passage and I

461
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 1: I am very the person that wrote in your you're right,

462
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with the passage. And in this passage

463
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 1: she says, basically in Shadows on the Koyakuk, a big

464
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: part of the book is that this boy and his

465
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: siblings like their their mom dies and they just they're

466
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 1: just like left out in this cabin. It's a true story.

467
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: That's a big part of his life stories is trying

468
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: to like keep his little siblings alive without parental help.

469
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: And he says, supper that night was rice and fish

470
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: we had caught the day before. He saw about the

471
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: night his mom died. Supper that night was rice and

472
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: fish we had caught the day before. Whitefish have a hard,

473
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: gristly part in their gut that looks af it as

474
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: if it has tentacles all over it, which is a

475
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: favorite delicacy of Koya Khan Indians. Mom fried and ate

476
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: this part. He says that whitefish got killed my mother.

477
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: Mom called us into the cabin and told us she

478
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: wasn't feeling well. Go upstairs and go to bed, she said.

479
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: We found our mother lying at the bottom of the stairs,

480
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: half out the door, as she had been when we

481
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: had gone to bed. Her eyes were closed, most of

482
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: her tongue protruded from her mouth, and it was bitten

483
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: almost in two. The author this is the guy that

484
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 1: wrote the letter in matt continuing. The author doesn't elaborate

485
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: any further on how the hard gristly part in the

486
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: Whitefish's got killed his mother. Google searches have failed to

487
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: shed any light on the mechanism of death. He's wondered,

488
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: you got any thoughts about that. I don't think. I

489
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: wasn't there, but I remember reading it. I don't think

490
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 1: that that's what his mom died from when she bit

491
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 1: her tongue. Wouldn't it be that she had a seizure,

492
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: possibly bitter tongue in half?

493
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, although you don't know what triggered that. No, Yeah,

494
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: I didn't.

495
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: I felt it was coincidence.

496
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 2: I did my own five minutes of googling, and I

497
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: found the part of the stomach that looks like that,

498
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 2: and I a lot of fish have it, and I

499
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 2: found uh, I actually found a cookbook of of like

500
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: traditional Tommy min, does it take you to do all this? Oh?

501
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 2: Five to ten?

502
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: Sure?

503
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: Not lying pretty good with computers?

504
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 1: Five it just double Do you know what's that film?

505
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 3: Well?

506
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: I thought you were started to call them out and jump.

507
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 2: I thought you were so impressed by the depth of

508
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 2: my research that I thought five seem unrealistic. I really

509
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: don't know how much time I spent on this. It

510
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 2: was in the hazy, it was in like the first

511
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: cup of coffee stages my morning on.

512
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: It without without bragging.

513
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 2: I actually found it without bragging. For sure, sure there

514
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 2: exists available online to any Internet researcher a book of

515
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: traditional coya con recipes. When there's pages and pages about

516
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 2: how to prep whitefish, and there's been a couple of

517
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: hours going through that. Yeah, I scanned through it. Uh

518
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: I scanned through it poorly, because I'm not bragging. I

519
00:25:59,440 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 2: scanned through.

520
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 3: I scan through it haphazardly and ply meg yourself now,

521
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 3: But I.

522
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: Was unable to find anything. Surely a more a talented

523
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: researcher could have found the answer but I was unable.

524
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: But you found the recipe I did, Yeah, and you

525
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: found no reason. You found no reason like that they hate.

526
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, what's that what's that fish liver

527
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: that is toxic?

528
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: You found no thing?

529
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: Like, hey, be careful.

530
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: No, I couldn't find anything like that, but that I

531
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 2: couldn't have found anything anyway, just because of how bad

532
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 2: I am and that stuff.

533
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: So it doesn't really say it doesn't mean yeah, no, I.

534
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: Think someone else should probably back me up.

535
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 3: Ye, I don't even know why we're trusting a single

536
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 3: thing you said.

537
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: I missed it on the first time.

538
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I always read that and like, again, I can't

539
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: recommend that book enough.

540
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: You could have read that book a long time ago.

541
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: I read that and wondered about that. I just feel

542
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: like it's like I hate, I would never want to

543
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: argue with the brother, but I think something else happened.

544
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just like it's hard to make a one

545
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: to one connection there.

546
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, think about when you get real sick from eating,

547
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: like your mind will kind of find culprits. Oh yeah,

548
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: you know, I remember one time I got super sick

549
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: in Mexico, like like deathly ill, and I couldn't eat

550
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: avocados forever. But I had a ham in avocado. We

551
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: bought like some some room temp air dried ham and

552
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: avocado and bread. I got deathly ill. It wasn't an avocado.

553
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but a.

554
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: Week later I could have had a big old ham sandwich,

555
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: but avocado. I couldn't go near an avocado for two years.

556
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: So I feel like stuff stands out in your mind.

557
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh sure.

558
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: And you're looking at this crazy octopus tentacle when you're

559
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: a kid. Yeah, you're looking at that, and you're like,

560
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: good Lord, and then like you know, haven't for bid

561
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: like your mad dies the next day, like it's gotta

562
00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: be that stoch.

563
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, she says she wasn't feeling well. It probably could

564
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 2: have not mattered what she had for dinner.

565
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So we're gonna talk about we're gonna

566
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: dig in and explain a We're gonna dig in and

567
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: explain a really fascinating period of American history. And Randall

568
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: and I have done he's in the past. Uh, we

569
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: did one on Daniel Boone and The Long Hunters. We

570
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: did one of these episodes on Daniel Boone The Long Hunters.

571
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: We did one of these episodes on the Mountain Men,

572
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: so Jim Bridger, John Colter and the Mountain Men, and

573
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: we're gonna do one right now on sort of the

574
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: era that the era, the Backwoodsman era that came after

575
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: the really big hit that came after the mountain Man era,

576
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: which was the hide Hunters. So to start, Ranald's gonna

577
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: lay out a little bit about like he's gonna why

578
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: are we talking about those three things? Like why are

579
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: we bucketing those three things? What makes them similar, what

580
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: makes them distinct?

581
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, So these are the first three installments of this

582
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: Meat Eaters American History series, and what we've focused on

583
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: in that series are these eras of sort of frontier

584
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: market hunting where large groups of individuals are going out well,

585
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: I should say relatively large groups of individuals are seeking

586
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: sort of a new life by harvesting wildlife resources for profit.

587
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: And that's a phenomenon you see repeated over and over

588
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: again in American history and often aligns with sort of

589
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: bigger shifts in the larger national story, like the Mountain

590
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 2: Man aligns with the Louisiana Purchase and the opening up

591
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: of the Rocky Mountain West. The long Hunter era, which

592
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: is in the late seventeen sixties early seventeen seventies. That

593
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 2: aligns with this window of opportunity between the French and

594
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: Indian War and the American Revolution broadly speaking. But in

595
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: each of these instances, there's there are these individuals that

596
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: go out into what is then land largely unknown to

597
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 2: them and occupied by Native people, and they're harvesting wildlife

598
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: resources on the scale that's sort of unimaginable to us today,

599
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: and in doing so, they also leave behind some of

600
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: our most told and retold stories of wilderness living and

601
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: outdoor adventure that have sort of, you know, been passed

602
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: down to us as as like the origin story of

603
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: like American hunters and anglers, right, But in this series,

604
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: we're asking what were they doing really, like, what were

605
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: they after? How are they acquiring it, who were they

606
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: selling it to, what was it being used for? And

607
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: what are the various like larger contextual factors that shaped

608
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: how they lived the lives the way they did so.

609
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: Like I said, the first one was the long Hunters,

610
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: and Daniel Boone is the most well known of those.

611
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: These are guys largely coming out of western North Carolina,

612
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: western Virginia, and they're going across the Appalachian Mountains to

613
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: shoot white tailed deer for their skin, which is used

614
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: in leather goods primarily manufactured in Britain breeches, but all

615
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: sorts of other and breeches are like knee length pants,

616
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: like the goofy things you see on paintings of old

617
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: guys with big white wigs. Yeah, yeah, when you see it.

618
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: If you see like an old guy or like or

619
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: Napoleon or someone, he's got like some white pants, some tidy,

620
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: some type in white pants.

621
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: Buttons on the front might be buckskins, like a little

622
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 2: button fly flap.

623
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it could be American buckskin.

624
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so yeah, these are essentially poor farmers living

625
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: on the frontier, and it's an economy where they don't

626
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: have ready access for cash but one thing, and their

627
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: farms don't produce enough of a surplus to really sell

628
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 2: on a market. But the one good that they can

629
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: take to market and sell to buy the things that

630
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: they need to buy is white tailed deer skin. So

631
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: after the French and Indian War, when it's a little

632
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: bit safer to go across the Appalachian Mountains, they start

633
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 2: going over to Kentucky, Tennessee. Basically the Ohio River Valley

634
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: in the Cumberland River Valley and shoot deer by the

635
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: hundreds and thousands and pack them by mule train across

636
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: the mountains. And they stay out there for months, sometimes

637
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: a year longer. And that's how they get the name

638
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: long hunters long ass hunt. Long ass hunt refers to

639
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: the duration of their trips. And these are sort of

640
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: smaller groups. Oftentimes it's like family members, neighbors, and they

641
00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: organize their expeditions along these lines of kinship and sort

642
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: of clan, you know. And and it's it's a really

643
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: interesting sort of fleeting moment because in seventeen seventy five

644
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: the first permanent white settlement is established in Kentucky. And

645
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: then also you have the beginnings of some of the

646
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: frontier violence that ultimately bleeds into the Revolutionary War. So

647
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: that's the long hunters. Yep.

648
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: That's a that's a interesting thing that we compare through

649
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: all these is these like what are the the groups,

650
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: the group dynamics, And you you made a point with

651
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: the long hunters. When you're reading about long hunter expeditions,

652
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: it's tons of brother in laws, Yeah, tons of cousins, tons,

653
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.

654
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: Brother's father in law's brother in law. This guy married

655
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: this guy's sister.

656
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: Exactly, and he's like sort of like these familial, very

657
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: neighborly clan. Yeah, but it could be as many as

658
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: forty people, and.

659
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: They're And one of the big differences too, between the

660
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: Long Hunters and some of the later volumes. The individuals

661
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 2: we look at in the later volumes is they don't

662
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: leave behind a lot of records. They're they're rural people,

663
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 2: they're largely illiterate. Most of their stories that we have

664
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 2: of them are recorded after the fact by interviews with

665
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: their survivors or maybe interviews with them later in life,

666
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 2: you know, like talking to an old man about what

667
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: he did in his twenties. And so the source material

668
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 2: for that, with the exception of Daniel Boone, is very

669
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 2: very thin. So we had to do a lot more

670
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: sort of piecing together and hypothesizing in that story than

671
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: we did in some of these other ones.

672
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: Yep, okay, recap mountain men. Like when you hear the

673
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: word mountain men, it's an abused term, it is it

674
00:34:54,120 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: means like, yeah, it's not like an old her that

675
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: lives up in the mountains, and there's like when you

676
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 1: see mountain men from a historical standpoint, it's something very specific.

677
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So as we use the term in most I

678
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: guess people who are in this field use the term,

679
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 2: it's referring to Rocky mountain beaver trappers who went west

680
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: after the return of Lewis and Clark. So it's eighteen

681
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 2: oh six, it really is sort of becomes a big

682
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 2: thing in the late eighteen twenties, mid eighteen twenties, late

683
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 2: eighteen twenties when they developed the rendezvous system, which is

684
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 2: a way of supplying these trappers and also getting their

685
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 2: furs to market. But they're they're out there in the

686
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 2: Rockies sort of nomadically traveling from watershed to watershed in

687
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 2: organized groups, trapping beaver, which is being used to produce wolfeldt.

688
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 2: So really they're not after the skin. They're after the hare,

689
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 2: which is and the hair not attached to the skin,

690
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: which is sort of a an interesting twist when you

691
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: think about like the fur trade in general, it's like

692
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 2: you're making mink eyelashes, like mink eyelashes exactly. I was

693
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 2: curious when we were talking about that if they're keeping

694
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: if they're just gluing them in place.

695
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: On some they're just plucking them.

696
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 2: There's no way they're putting Let I think be cool

697
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 2: if you have you.

698
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: Had the letter on there, you have all the yeah,

699
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: but the underfur.

700
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

701
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: Oh you know what we fail to mention? What's that?

702
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: Met Eater's American History, The Hide Hunters. So volume three, yes,

703
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: is out now.

704
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: Out now out October fourteenth. This is being released October thirteenth.

705
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: So unless you're the type of person that listens to

706
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 2: it the day it drops as you listen to it,

707
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 2: it's out now.

708
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: So met Eater's American History The Hide Hunters, which we're

709
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: giving you a we're giving you a crash course in

710
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: the subject right now. We're giving you a free crash

711
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: course in the subject right now for an hour, little tease,

712
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: but then the actual thing is how many hours? Seven Yeah,

713
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: so you're getting a little you're getting a little little

714
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: tittle later right now. But then the big helping, the

715
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: big Christmas Goose with all the trimmings, with all the

716
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: trimming is out now seven hours anywhere you get.

717
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 2: Your audio books, where you get your audiobooks. So, yeah,

718
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: Mountain Men is is a story that I think a

719
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: lot of people might be familiar with just when they

720
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: think of a frontiersman trapper. But one of the interesting

721
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: differences between mountain men and long hunters is that, uh,

722
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: these expeditions because they're going across the continent and there's

723
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: a ton of logistics involved, they're they're actually organized by corporations,

724
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: and they have a lot of capital, and there's a

725
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: lot of sort of behind the scenes jockeying for control

726
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: of different corporations and so and so sells their interest whatever.

727
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 2: But out of that you get the fact that these

728
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: these trappers, a lot of them just see an ad

729
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: in a newspaper. It's like, do you want to go

730
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: west and trap beaver for two years? Three years? And

731
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: sign on?

732
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: And so like.

733
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: While Daniel Boone and some of these long hunters were

734
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 2: going and hunting with their family and their neighbors, guys

735
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 2: like Jim Bridger were sort of you know, he's he's

736
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: eighteen years old, and he's doesn't have a lot of

737
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 2: he's sort of rootless. His parents are dead, and he

738
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: sees an ad in the newspaper and shows up at

739
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: an office in Saint Louis and.

740
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: Signs, yes, signs an employment agreement. Yeah, that's the funniest

741
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: thing you think about. When you think about these guys,

742
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: like the mountain men that are out there living off

743
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: the land for multiple years with very little resupply. Most

744
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: of those guys start out it's like it's a job.

745
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it has a pay scale and you commit,

746
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 2: it's financial security, like there's.

747
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: Not like an HR office. But I mean it's like

748
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 1: a job though, right.

749
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and like the I mean, it's it's interesting

750
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 2: because whenever you read a story about like the Rocky

751
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: Mountain Fur Company, they always mentioned this one really famous

752
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 2: at advertisement where they're seeking one hundred enterprising young men

753
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: to go up the Missouri and so yeah, although it

754
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: seems like this really distant, sort of ancient world, they're

755
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: finding job ads in the newspaper and following up on

756
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: them to become a trapper. And then that story dies

757
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 2: out really with the virtual extirpation of beaver from the Rockies,

758
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 2: and at the same time there's a collapse in the

759
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: beaver felt market. There's a bunch of different reasons for that,

760
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: but the silk top hat becomes the preferred fashion and

761
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 2: essentially the beaver trade sort of vanishes, and in the

762
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: eighteen thirty eight eighteen thirty nine, when these guys are

763
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 2: coming together for rendezvous to sell their furs, they sort

764
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 2: of see the writing on the wall. And then eighteen

765
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: forty is the last official rendezvous where which is like

766
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 2: the big commercial exchange that sort of keeps this whole

767
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: world turning.

768
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: When when Randall's talking about for hats, like, if you

769
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:09,280
Speaker 1: imagine honest Abe Lincoln, so honest Ave Lincoln is running

770
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: around in that hat eighteen sixty, if he was running

771
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: around in that hat in eighteen thirty, his would have

772
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 1: been wool felt, beaver wolf felt. But I believe honest

773
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: Abe was wearing was by Civil War, was wearing a

774
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: silk hat. I think it was a silk hat, same cut,

775
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: like those crazy looking hats.

776
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you keep like a house cat up inside there,

777
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 2: but it seems like a very inefficient. Oh just an

778
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: insane when you're wearing a backpack and it catches on

779
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 2: everything over your head and you just go, oh shit,

780
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 2: I'm wearing my backpack.

781
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: Noyea.

782
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 2: You know, I would imagine that a guy with the

783
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: top hat would have a similar issue.

784
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a guy trying to wear a cowboy

785
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: hat on an airplane.

786
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: Especially a tall guy like a Blincoln, you know, better

787
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: have high door door openings.

788
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: Where are we at? Yeah, we'll talk about that. Yeah,

789
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: which moves us into the hide Hunter era. Okay, here's

790
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 1: one of the funny things about working on these series

791
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: of all these these American commercial hunter market hunter periods.

792
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 1: For the first couple of volumes we did the Long Hunters,

793
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: the Mountain Men. You have all these American heroes, these

794
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: mythologized characters. And what's interesting about these American heroes, these

795
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: mythologized characters is there's more awareness. There's more awareness about

796
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: the individuals and the lives they lived. Then there is

797
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 1: awareness about what they actually were doing for a living,

798
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: meaning people know the name Daniel Boone. Okay, So if

799
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: you went out and just took it, just pulled random

800
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: adult Americans off the street and said, have you ever

801
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 1: heard of Daniel Boone? You're gonna get a nod. Yes,

802
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: what was up with him? Some kind of hunter or

803
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 1: some kind of frontiersman?

804
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 2: What I lived in the woods?

805
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, But if I said, can you explain me what

806
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: he did for a living, You're gonna have a very

807
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: low success rate on getting a good answer. So people

808
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 1: know the name, they know these pioneers, this pioneering figure,

809
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 1: but they're not clear on what he was doing. He's

810
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: known for people have an understanding that he was a

811
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: sort of explorer settler, which he was, but not necessarily

812
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: intentionally being like he wasn't like like, he wasn't a promoter.

813
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: He is very tightly affiliated with people know him as

814
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: a Kentucky figure. He left Kentucky, died elsewhere, right, there's

815
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: not a lot of awareness of what he was. Same

816
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: with if I went to you and said Davy Crockett,

817
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: people are gonna be like, yes, familiar with the name

818
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: Davy Crockett, And I said, can you explain to me

819
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: some of the things Davy Crockett did for a living,

820
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: and they probably wouldn't have a very good sense. The

821
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: Mountain Man era, people know Jim Bridger explorer or whatever.

822
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: But if I said, but why was he exploring? They

823
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: might not know that his sole focus over much of

824
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 1: his professional career, his sole focus was like trying to

825
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: locate populations of beavers in order to trap them. But

826
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: they stand as these American icons are American heroes. Now

827
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 1: that we're moving into the hide hunter era, and when

828
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: we say the hide Hunters we're talking about is buffalo hunters,

829
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: but there's a long history of being buffalo hunters. When

830
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: we talk about the hide hunters, we're talking about a

831
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: very specific type of buffalo hunters. We're talking about a

832
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: type of buffalo hunter who was hunting buffalo in order

833
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: to get the skins which were just sold as dried

834
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: what they call flint hides, not tanned. They were collecting skins,

835
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: pegging them out to dry and selling them, and these

836
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: were skins that were being tanned into leather products in

837
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: the East. That is what we call a hide hunter

838
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: is someone who's using like a systematic system of slaughter

839
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: of buffalo in order to sell hides in a specific

840
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: period of time. One of the things that struck me

841
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: the most we started on this highe hunter period is

842
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: that here you're now entering into a type of a

843
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: type of frontiersman, a type of market hunter from an

844
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: era that produced zero heroes. Rhymes.

845
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 3: Well, if I left the s off, it would have

846
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 3: put it in the dog song.

847
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 1: There's no heroes, like, there's no mythologized figure. And you

848
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: can ask you why are there no famous heroic hide hunters?

849
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: And I think that there's probably one main reason why

850
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: while the long hunters like Boone extra pated deer from

851
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: certain areas or greatly reduced deer herds wiped out elk herds,

852
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: wiped out buffalo, they're not known as the guys that

853
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: did that. That crime hasn't been pegged on them. The

854
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: mountain men Jim Bridger, they extra pated beavers across a

855
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 1: bunch of their range. They wiped out regional populations of beavers,

856
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: but the crime hasn't been pinned on them.

857
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: And a lot of people probably don't even know there

858
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: was a crime. Yep.

859
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: They probably don't know that those things happen. Yeah, but

860
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: when you get into the buffalo hide hunters who as

861
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: will explain the years who from the end of the

862
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: Civil War to about eighteen eighty three, they virtually eliminate

863
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: They kill about fifteen million buffalo. They kill them until

864
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: there's less than one thousand left in the United States.

865
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: It is very well understood that they committed the crime and.

866
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 2: Were still living with that consequence. That consequence today, Like

867
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 2: even though they didn't wipe out the buffo, biologically speaking,

868
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 2: the buffalo never recovered from that episode as a wild animal.

869
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. The way the best way I've heard that that

870
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: distinction explained as I remember years ago someone explaining that

871
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 1: they weren't driven to genetic extinction, but they were driven

872
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: to ecological extinction, meaning they cease to be they cease

873
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: to have an ecological artage landscape. Yeah, and we understand

874
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: that these Buffalo Hunters did that, and it's and that

875
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,959
Speaker 1: crime has been pinned on them. And when you watch

876
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: a documentary that deals with this era, they're usually just

877
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: treated as villains. They're the villains. Everyone agrees that they're

878
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,919
Speaker 1: the villains. We don't have buffalo Hunter heroes. We don't

879
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: make Buffalo Hunter movies. There aren't movies where the buffalo

880
00:46:54,840 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: Hunter winds up being heroic and saving everybody, right, And

881
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: Jeremiah Johnson, he doesn't run into and get saved by

882
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: a buffalo Hunter because they're villains. Yeah, he gets saved

883
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: by an old mountain man because they're heroes.

884
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: They and the other thing too that we get into

885
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: this in the audiobook is that there's a shift in

886
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 2: consciousness that occurs during their lifetime where all of a

887
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: sudden you see the rise of the modern conservation movement,

888
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 2: the founding of the Boone and Crocket Club, the curtailment

889
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: of market hunting by the federal government. And this all

890
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 2: happens during their lifetimes sort of almost as soon as

891
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 2: the smoke is cleared from their shooting, all of a sudden,

892
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: market hunting is a very bad thing in sort of

893
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: the cultural and political American consciousness, and so they sort

894
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 2: of live in this weird space where the world that

895
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 2: they did these acts in and killed all these buffalo

896
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 2: was not the world that they lived in twenty years later.

897
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 1: Randall that we're gonna touch on this today. I'm just

898
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: gonna touch out now. I think we're gonna touch on

899
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: this today. Yeah, here's the thing about to keep in

900
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 1: mind about this hide hunter thing. And we're gonna talk

901
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: about why the years. Well, you don't talk about le's

902
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: let's do why the years now, because I want to

903
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: talk about the way in which this era, Yeah, the

904
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: way in which this era turns into the modern era.

905
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 2: Hm.

906
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: You know, we'll get into this more, but we make

907
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: the point in there that these some of these buffalo

908
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: hide hunters lived to see the publication of San County Almanac, right,

909
00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 1: They live to see the presidency of an individual Theodore Roosevelt,

910
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: who was like an adversary of the market hunters.

911
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of them eliminated.

912
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they were like living a period of sort

913
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 1: of watching their peers, watching their contemporaries come to condemn them,

914
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: you know, I mean you were making that point, but

915
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I just think that it's important to

916
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: realize that like there was no there was almost like

917
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: no period when they were celebrated. A lot of them

918
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: got bitter about this, and we tell that story in

919
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 1: the book. A lot of them get to be old

920
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: men and they're bitter. Yeah, they're bitter about how they've

921
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: been disparaged in their own lifetimes for what they did.

922
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in some ways, I mean, there are other

923
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 2: parallels I could I could draw, but they're in there

924
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 2: later in life, once they're no longer living in this

925
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 2: world where the hide hunt was a good thing, or

926
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 2: or you know, even a new like once it became

927
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 2: a hot button topic and the buffalo wiped out and

928
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: conservations on the rise, they often would look back and

929
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: explain what they were doing in a different way. They

930
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 2: tried to They tried to reimagine what drove them to

931
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 2: do what they did in order to align themselves with

932
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 2: things that were still okay at that time, and so

933
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 2: a lot of them said, well, we did it to

934
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 2: tame the frontier, we did it to conquer Native people.

935
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 2: We did it to sort of, you know, break break

936
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 2: Indian resistance and open up the West for settlement. But

937
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:43,919
Speaker 2: what's fascinating is when you go back and you read

938
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: the accounts that were written at the time, as opposed

939
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 2: to like what they wrote down in nineteen hundred or

940
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: nineteen ten. They always say, I was young, I needed money.

941
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 2: It was free for the taking. All you needed was

942
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 2: a rifle. You go out there and you get as

943
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 2: many as you can, make a lot of money. And

944
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 2: there's none of these guys at the time or sort

945
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: of thing are explaining their actions in a way that's

946
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 2: like part of a broader national story of quote unquote progress.

947
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 2: But as old men, oh yeah, living now, living in

948
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties, nineteen thirties, or even just back in

949
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 2: like during the Roosevelt presidency, they're saying, oh, well, you know,

950
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 2: we were part of we were part of the American story.

951
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 2: We weren't bad guys. The whole money thing was just

952
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 2: decide issue. What we were really trying to do is

953
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,240
Speaker 2: open up the West. For white settlement.

954
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, they get terribly sentimental too. This isn't this isn't

955
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: a direct quote, but it would be that you'll get

956
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: this kind of sentiment from them as old men. Like

957
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: when I look and see children coming out of Sunday School, Yeah,

958
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: in the Texas Panhandle, running into the arms of their

959
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: waiting mothers.

960
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, by god, I.

961
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: Did the right thing.

962
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 2: And one of the interesting things about these sort of

963
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: after the fact explanations for their actions, especially as it

964
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 2: comes to like the consequences for Native people, Like they

965
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 2: in the early nineteen hundreds, they said, well, this was

966
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 2: a good and necessary thing. We did it so that

967
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 2: we could we could defeat the tribes of the Planes.

968
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 2: At the time, they did that because they thought it

969
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 2: was something worth celebrating. They said what they did in

970
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: that way, they explained their actions because in a way

971
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 2: that would be celebrated. But then decades later, once people

972
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 2: started thinking differently about what happened to the tribes of

973
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 2: the Planes, they latched on to those explanations because it

974
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 2: made the guys seem even worse, made the heigh hunters

975
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: seem even more villainous, and so like you almost have

976
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 2: to go back to what they were saying while they

977
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 2: did it, rather than what they were saying long after

978
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 2: the fact, once their actions had sort of taken a

979
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 2: big shift in sort of the public opinion.

980
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. We well, I'm gonna say it now. I keep

981
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: trying to be like really disciplined about what we bring

982
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: up when. But there's a hide hunter who kills over

983
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 1: ten thousand the buffalo okay, who who lives through the

984
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: Korean War. Yeah, he lives to see we mentioned he

985
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 1: lives to see like Playboy magazine being published.

986
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, he lived to be one hundred and four years old.

987
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,280
Speaker 1: Lives to see here's a guy that's on the Texas

988
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: Plains fighting comanches, shooting buffalo for a living, and he

989
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 1: lives to like read Playboy magazine, see the introduction of

990
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: the corvette.

991
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 2: The first Burger king opened before he died, and the

992
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 2: first nuclear submarine launched before he died. Yeah.

993
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 3: But he you know, he.

994
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 2: Listened to the president on the radio. Uh he he uh,

995
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 2: he drove cars, you know, like there's stories about these

996
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 2: buffalo hunters. The wife of one buffalo hunter later in

997
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 2: life said, you know, I hadn't been back to Dodge

998
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 2: City since the Buffalo Hunt and the interviewers like, well,

999
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 2: why did you go to Dodge City? Why did you

1000
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 2: go back? And she goes, oh, there is a motorcycle race.

1001
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 2: We're going to watch a motorcycle race.

1002
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, the extreme like that.

1003
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 3: That.

1004
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: That's then we spent a lot of time on it

1005
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,399
Speaker 1: is just how abrupt at the end of this era,

1006
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: how like abrupt the country changed out of it. And

1007
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: a thing we bring up as well, we keep talking

1008
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: about these the certain these certain hide hunters who lived

1009
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: through the buffalo slaughter and became they kind of stayed that,

1010
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: they kind of wanted to continue to defend themselves. And

1011
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: we talked about that there's no hide hunter heroes. Now

1012
00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: that's not entirely accurate, because there's a lot of mythologized

1013
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: Western figures who became mythologized later for their exploits as gunfighters, lawmen, gamblers,

1014
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 1: but who you wouldn't realize cut their teeth as hide hunters.

1015
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 2: Uh Wider.

1016
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 1: There's like historians a little bit questioned like how into

1017
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: hide hunting wider was he? He was hide hunter adjacent,

1018
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: maybe did some high hunting, Wider did some high hunting.

1019
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 1: I'll tell you who absolutely was a highe hunter Pat Garrett,

1020
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: the man who killed Billy the Kid.

1021
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 2: We recently had Brian Burrows, Brian Yeah, Brian Burrows on,

1022
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 2: No Burrow Burrow singing of William Burrows. I know that's

1023
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 2: what That's what screwed me. I always do that.

1024
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: We recently had the writer Brian Burrow on and his

1025
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: very excellent book The Gunfighters, and in The Gunfighters he

1026
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 1: tells the story of the night Billy the Kid died

1027
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,760
Speaker 1: in New Mexico, and he talks about that the last

1028
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: person Billy the Kid addressed he said ken as to

1029
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: a man named John Poe, and then was shortly thereafter

1030
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: shot and killed. Will set it again, said the same thing,

1031
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: goes into a bedroom, He passes a guy outside and

1032
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: says keen as, who is that? Goes into a bedroom,

1033
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: says it again to someone in the room, not knowing

1034
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 1: who he's looking at, and that guy kills him dead.

1035
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 1: Those two guys were buffalo hide hunters, but no one

1036
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: knows John Poe and Pat Garrett as buffalo heide.

1037
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 2: Hunters their former buffalo hide hunters at the time.

1038
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: Bat Masterson gunfighter becomes a sportswriter buffalo hunter. So it's

1039
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 1: not fair to say that the Buffalo Hunters didn't produce heroes,

1040
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: but they didn't produce heroes from that.

1041
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:04,240
Speaker 2: They shed that, They shed that identity and became new people.

1042
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. Some became like dudes that were presidents of banks.

1043
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 2: A lot of them got killed in bars and card games.

1044
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, many, like many divide, died violently. And that's another

1045
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 1: thing about like the legacy of the hide Hunters is

1046
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,919
Speaker 1: you'll find people say, oh, the hide Hunters were nothing

1047
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: but horse stephens, scoundrels. Yeah. And the other historians, including

1048
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,439
Speaker 1: Elliott West, who we had on the podcast years ago,

1049
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: Elliott West has this passage like, oh, they became candy

1050
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: salesmen and high school principles. Yeah, and you're like, both

1051
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: those things are true. They were some horse stealing scoundrels. Yeah,

1052
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: some became candy salesman, like they became all things.

1053
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Elliott Elliott West in that passage he makes

1054
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 2: a point that like the hide hunters stepped out of

1055
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 2: normal life to become hide hunters. You know, they were

1056
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 2: like farmers, they were guys that worked on the railroad,

1057
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 2: they were they have these they weren't born to be

1058
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 2: right and like boone was born to be right, and

1059
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 2: there was there was an opportunity, and they stepped into

1060
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 2: that world and they they did what they did, and

1061
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 2: then that world vanished along with the buffalo, and they

1062
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 2: moved on to the next thing.

1063
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 1: Uh, it's more appropriate to say this is a segue.

1064
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: It's more appropriate to say that these Buffalo hide hunters,

1065
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: who we no one understand and have condemned for exterminating

1066
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: the American buffalo. Yes, they stepped out of normal life.

1067
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: But it's more it's it's better to say, yeah, they

1068
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: stepped out of the American Civil War.

1069
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's something that I it's something that you

1070
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 2: hear about this era. Like a lot of these Buffalo

1071
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 2: Hunters were formal former Civil War soldiers or somehow affected.

1072
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 2: Their lives were affected by the Civil War. But you

1073
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 2: really don't have a full appreciation for it until you

1074
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 2: start reading their individual stories, by the dozens, and it's

1075
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 2: just it's overwhelming. Frank Mayor, the guy who lived to

1076
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 2: see Burger King and Playboy magazine. He was a thirteen

1077
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 2: year old drummer boy.

1078
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: Wonder if you ever read Playboy while eating Burger King.

1079
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: I think he's in a corvette.

1080
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 2: At one hundred and four. He I hope he was

1081
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 2: doing all that stuff. It's doubtful though, is that. Baby.

1082
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take my corvette down, pick up the April issue,

1083
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: get a burger, get a.

1084
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 3: Whopper, just for the articles, of course. Yeah, yeah, well

1085
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 3: that was.

1086
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 2: Back when when you really could read some good stuff

1087
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 2: in there, you know, to be a country. So he Yeah.

1088
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 2: Frank Mayor, the guy who lived to be one hundred

1089
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 2: and four, he was a thirteen year old drummer boy,

1090
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 2: serving they think, in his father's artillery unit at the

1091
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 2: Battle of Gettysburg. If you can imagine what he witnessed

1092
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 2: during that period of time as a thirteen year old, like,

1093
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 2: it's hard to imagine him going on to just live

1094
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 2: a quiet life somewhere right. And he even makes the

1095
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 2: point in his memoir that after the Civil War there

1096
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:22,439
Speaker 2: were a ton of men who didn't know what was next,

1097
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 2: but they knew they knew they had to move on, right,

1098
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 2: and so they were sort of lost. They were looking

1099
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 2: for purpose. A lot of them like they'd lost family members,

1100
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 2: They might have lost fathers. John Cook. I don't know

1101
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 2: if we mentioned Cook yet.

1102
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: No, we haven't mentioned Cook yet, but a very like

1103
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 1: Cook also comes out of one of the most ugly

1104
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 1: violent aspects of the Civil War, which and we explained

1105
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 1: it a little bit, which is not widely known about.

1106
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 2: What was going on in that period. But yeah, so

1107
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 2: he's he's his family moves out to Missouri, and so

1108
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 2: they get all wrapped up in the guerrilla fighting that's

1109
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 2: going on on the Kansas Missouri border. And his brother

1110
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 2: is shot twenty seven times. His brother was serving he.

1111
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: Shot pieces, yeah, like a revenge attack.

1112
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 2: And his brother is serving in a Union military unit.

1113
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 2: And some Confederates earlier that day had killed some Union

1114
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 2: soldiers and put on their uniforms, and so they marched

1115
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 2: right up to Cook's brother and he got shot twenty

1116
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 2: seven times. And the commanding officer of that unit gave

1117
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 2: John Cook his brother's hat that's just soaked in blood

1118
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 2: and full of holes, and says, you know, this is

1119
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 2: what we have left your brother, Bring it to your mom.

1120
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 2: And so even though Cook himself was like again a youngster,

1121
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 2: you know, he didn't like bear the brunt of the fighting,

1122
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 2: like the Civil War profoundly brought an end to his

1123
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 2: like childhood innocence. And then there's guys that served as

1124
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 2: prisoners of war and guys that there's one hide hunter

1125
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 2: who won the Congressional Medal of Honor. And there's a

1126
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 2: you know, we have stories of like a guy who

1127
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 2: is a Confederate soldier who is he was at a

1128
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 2: fort that was went under siege and like two thirds

1129
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 2: of the guys in there with them had died by

1130
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 2: the time they surrendered, so you can imagine.

1131
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: And then he that's the guy he gets taken up

1132
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: to a military prison in the North at the end

1133
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: of the war, walks home to North Carolina, Yeah, and

1134
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 1: then heads out. That's important thing to bring up is

1135
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 1: Confederate like not just Union, but Union and Confederate soldiers

1136
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: in the years immediately after the war, within a decade

1137
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: after the war are coming together in hunting outfits in Texas.

1138
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And and you also there's a couple of

1139
01:02:53,920 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 2: interesting stories of brothers, the Clarkson brothers, the l of

1140
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 2: the three. He served in the war, and then afterwards

1141
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 2: they said he grew his hair out long, and he

1142
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,919
Speaker 2: went out west and started trapping wolves. And then once

1143
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 2: the buffalo hunt got underway, he wrote to his other

1144
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 2: brothers and said, come on out, you got it. And

1145
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 2: these guys killed I believe twenty thousand Buffalo during their

1146
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 2: career as Buffalo hunters. And there's another guy. He writes

1147
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 2: to his brother, and that guy comes out and he

1148
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 2: brings a rifle and a canteen and a compass, and

1149
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 2: they're all his Union issued like army army gears. So

1150
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 2: we begin this story in eighteen sixty five because the

1151
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 2: connection to the end of the Civil War is sort

1152
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 2: of inarguable, but the hunt itself really doesn't get underway

1153
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 2: until later, until six years later. Essentially.

1154
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:54,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a little device we use in these American

1155
01:03:55,040 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 1: history pieces where we like to bracket. We like to

1156
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 1: bracket like the years that we're talking about, which is no,

1157
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 1: it's true. Yeah, But what we also do is we

1158
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: also hint at we.

1159
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 2: Bracket it.

1160
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:15,320
Speaker 1: Okay. So with the Long Hunters, we say in the

1161
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 1: title met Eater's American History, the Long Hunters seventeen sixty

1162
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 1: three to seventeen seventy five. Seventeen sixty three being the

1163
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 1: end of the French and Indian War or the Seven

1164
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: Years War, so you get a period of relative peace

1165
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 1: on the frontier which allows guys to somewhat more safely

1166
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 1: go into the colonial frontier to hunt. Seventeen seventy five,

1167
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: of course, is the year before the American Revolution, which

1168
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: brings in this very bloodied period on the American frontier

1169
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 1: when it becomes really hard to hunt. But then, of

1170
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: course we explain a lot about like what happens before

1171
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 1: seventeen sixty three, yeah, and in a little bit about

1172
01:04:55,800 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 1: what happens after seventeen seventy five, But the era is

1173
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 1: that with the Mountain Men eighteen oh six, so that's

1174
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 1: the return of the Lewis and Clark expedition. However, we

1175
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 1: explain a little bit about the Louisiana purchase, which is

1176
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 1: before that, but the action is like the return of

1177
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark and the reports of great quantities of

1178
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: beavers in the American West with the collapse of the

1179
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 1: market in eighteen forty. The hide Hunter story, we're saying

1180
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 1: sixty five, And as we explain, it's because you can't

1181
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 1: understand the hide Hunters without understanding the Civil War from

1182
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: a standpoint of firearms, from a standpoint of railroads, yeah,

1183
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 1: from a little bit of politics, okay, and from the

1184
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 1: standpoint of creating a generation of displaced young men. But

1185
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:54,640
Speaker 1: the shooting doesn't start till about seven years later. Yeah,

1186
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 1: the shooting really starts in eighteen seventy two.

1187
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 2: And on the railroad. On the railroad, note, like the

1188
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 2: trans Continental railroads are authorized during the Civil War, and

1189
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 2: that's tied to politics and questions about you know, like

1190
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 2: keeping California in the Union. And also the northern elected

1191
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 2: officials don't no longer have to concede things to the South,

1192
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 2: so it's really a Northern project. So they authorize the

1193
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 2: trans Continental railroads. They really don't get construction. They don't

1194
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 2: make a lot of progress and construction untill after the war.

1195
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 2: But the railroads are important for two reasons. One, the

1196
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 2: sheer logistics of moving all these buffalo skins off the

1197
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 2: planes is unimaginable without the railroads in the quantities that

1198
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 2: they're moving them. Two, a lot of these Civil War

1199
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 2: veterans got they sort of cut their teeth as buffalo

1200
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 2: hunters shooting meat to feed railroad workers, and so they

1201
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 2: were already making this transition into market hunters before the

1202
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 2: hide hunt as meat hunters.

1203
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd like to explain one example that just because

1204
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:13,360
Speaker 1: it's a name people are gonna be familiar with. If

1205
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 1: you're sitting there now listening to this, if one buffalo hunter. No,

1206
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: I'm not saying a hide hunter. A buffalo hunter you

1207
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 1: probably know is Buffalo Bill Cody. Buffalo Bill Cody never

1208
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:30,919
Speaker 1: participated in the hide hunt. Buffalo. Bill Cody shot four

1209
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 1: thousand buffalo as a meat hunter for the railroad, but

1210
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 1: then got off on other ventures, got into the show,

1211
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 1: got into show business and some high profile guiding. He

1212
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,920
Speaker 1: never made the transition, but other guys like that, like picture,

1213
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: you got a guy like a guy like Bill Cody, Buffalo.

1214
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 1: Bill Cody kills four thousand for the meat. This guy

1215
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 1: has perfected the has perfected the skill. Yeah, so you

1216
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 1: had these dudes when the hide market takes off, and

1217
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: we explain in great detail why the hyde market exploded.

1218
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: When the hide market takes off, you got guys that

1219
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 1: are rare and to go.

1220
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they don't need to figure out how to

1221
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 2: kill buffalo. Yeah, they've had their sort of professional apprenticeship

1222
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 2: as meat hunters and they're selling meat. Not only two

1223
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:24,760
Speaker 2: railroad camps. Like you think about all the laborers needed

1224
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 2: for these infrastructure projects. Like there's companies that get a

1225
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 2: contract from the railroad to board and house all of

1226
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:34,760
Speaker 2: the workers, and then those companies are going out and

1227
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 2: hiring a guy like Bill Cody to kill buffalo and

1228
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:40,840
Speaker 2: it's like eight to day or something like that. They're

1229
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 2: also getting contracts to supply meat to forts, like there's

1230
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 2: military forts being established across the west to guard the

1231
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 2: railroad and also to wage war on the tribes. And

1232
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 2: so there's civilians who are going out and hunting buffalo

1233
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:00,040
Speaker 2: to feed the soldiers. And then they're also engaging in

1234
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 2: a more limited scale selling meat to butchers or meat

1235
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:09,000
Speaker 2: stores in the east, restaurants, hotels, whatever. It's sort of

1236
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 2: a curiosity. But all these there's very much like an

1237
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 2: intact robust trade in buffalo products before the hide hunt

1238
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 2: gets rolling.

1239
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, like if you imagine all of a sudden, squirrel

1240
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 1: brains are worth ten thousand dollars of brain, who's best

1241
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:34,640
Speaker 1: suited to capitalize on that.

1242
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:37,719
Speaker 2: Explodes that market Kevin Murphy. Kevin Murphy.

1243
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:42,560
Speaker 1: So people later one hundred years later saying, do you

1244
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 1: know that Kevin Murphy used to just hunt squirrels, like

1245
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 1: for the meat. People don't realize this, and yeah, everybody

1246
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 1: knows him as the squirrel brain hunter.

1247
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 2: It's so funny because they like the Clarkson's the who

1248
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier the three. A lot of them will

1249
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 2: come out west not really knowing what they're doing, and

1250
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:07,840
Speaker 2: then they get a job cutting wood to supply firewood

1251
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 2: to a military base, or cutting wood to supply firewood

1252
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 2: to a railroad camp, and then they realize another one

1253
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 2: of the guys cutting wood has sort of a side

1254
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 2: gig shooting buffalo, and then they realize, oh, I could

1255
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 2: do that. And then they realize if I got a

1256
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:23,720
Speaker 2: wagon of my own to haul this meet, I could

1257
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,760
Speaker 2: just kill buffalo all the time. And so there's like

1258
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 2: a series of years leading up to the hide hunt

1259
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:32,519
Speaker 2: where there's sort of this professional class developing, and there's

1260
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 2: still like a huge rush of outsiders once the hide

1261
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 2: hunt gets out our way, but like there's very much

1262
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 2: like a well developed expertise around killing buffalo, like especially

1263
01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:44,200
Speaker 2: in Kansas where it gets rippen.

1264
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 1: We should touch real quick on this idea that we

1265
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 1: talk about with the long hunters, that oftentimes a long

1266
01:10:53,240 --> 01:11:00,679
Speaker 1: hunting expedition would be people related, strong familial connection coming

1267
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 1: out of a specific settlement, oftentimes like in the Yadkin

1268
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 1: Valley of North Carolina, but coming out of these small

1269
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 1: agrarian settlements loosely connected individuals and they become like a

1270
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 1: like a they launch a long hunting expedition. It could

1271
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:18,360
Speaker 1: be forty guys, it could be five guys.

1272
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:20,080
Speaker 2: The mountain men.

1273
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 1: You have this thing with Uh, it's just all these

1274
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: many uprooted, displaced young men sort of randomly thrown together.

1275
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:34,400
Speaker 1: It's not a family enterprise. With the hide hunters. You

1276
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 1: do get a little bit back into a there is

1277
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,439
Speaker 1: some family stuff. Yeah, but we bring up this term.

1278
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 1: It's a it's a beautiful term and I'm surprised I

1279
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 1: had never heard it before. It's so great. We get

1280
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 1: into this thing called siphon. I don't the way you

1281
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:48,960
Speaker 1: picked the Randall introduced this word to me. Siphon migration

1282
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 1: m H where a person will a person will move

1283
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 1: out west, start doing well in the Buffalo high trade.

1284
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 1: And then and then heunctions as a sort of siphon

1285
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 1: and starts pulling people out with them.

1286
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:06,519
Speaker 2: Come on out, you guys gotta get in on this.

1287
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:11,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. So like cousins, brothers, whatever, get on the train

1288
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 1: or ride and they're coming out of Ohio, Illinois, Virginia,

1289
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 1: whatever it is, and they're being drawn out by someone

1290
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 1: in their social network, someone in their family. They're being

1291
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:25,840
Speaker 1: drawn out to get in on the bonanza. You also

1292
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:29,439
Speaker 1: have these organizations that they've called an outfit, who are

1293
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 1: coming together, oftentimes like under specific job titles. It's a

1294
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 1: hierarchical structure. The mountain men would work for these giant

1295
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:44,600
Speaker 1: by the time would have been like corporations. They had financiers.

1296
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:49,679
Speaker 1: They're like VC backed corporations hired the mountain men. There's

1297
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 1: no corporate structure with the hide hunters. It's like whoever

1298
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:56,720
Speaker 1: has the money to buy the equipment is the top

1299
01:12:56,760 --> 01:13:00,280
Speaker 1: of the hierarchy, and they'll be that. Usually that guy

1300
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:03,960
Speaker 1: is the shooter, but then he has like specific roles

1301
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:06,799
Speaker 1: with specific for specific skill sets. You have a shooter,

1302
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:10,760
Speaker 1: you have a skinner, maybe you have two skinners, you

1303
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 1: have a camp cook, and these are like assigned roles

1304
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: and you can you can climb through the hierarchy. Yeah,

1305
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:21,479
Speaker 1: but it's like it's like a it's a job description,

1306
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:24,120
Speaker 1: it's a skill, and you can go apply that skill.

1307
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 1: I could be I'm gonna go cook for Randall's outfit.

1308
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,639
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get sick of that, and the next year

1309
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go and sign a similar deal and get

1310
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 1: a job cooking for Fhill's outfit.

1311
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:39,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's the I'm forgetting the name of the historian,

1312
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 2: but he talks about this idea of crew culture where

1313
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:45,719
Speaker 2: you develop, like an industry develops, this sort of well

1314
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:52,960
Speaker 2: recognized a blueprint for how a crew works and if

1315
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 2: you if you make it through a season with one crew,

1316
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:57,200
Speaker 2: you can pretty seamlessly hop onto the other crew. And

1317
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 2: you think about this as like guys in relative dangerous professions.

1318
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:06,640
Speaker 2: You know, if you think about like logging, like wildfire

1319
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:11,240
Speaker 2: crews or commercial fishermen, it's often people sort of in

1320
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:15,479
Speaker 2: dangerous jobs. There's high turnover and there's like some hazing

1321
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:18,679
Speaker 2: involved and once you but once you know the lingo,

1322
01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:21,559
Speaker 2: and once you have your own sort of set of tools,

1323
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 2: like you can you can bounce around and so so

1324
01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:29,040
Speaker 2: these buffalo hunting outfits are really small scale outfits, maybe

1325
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:34,080
Speaker 2: four or five guys, some you know, twelve fifteen. I

1326
01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 2: think they're in rare instances. There's some crews of twenty,

1327
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:41,280
Speaker 2: but they all have very well defined jobs and there's

1328
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 2: a well defined sort of order of operations in terms

1329
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:46,439
Speaker 2: of how you kill the buffalo, how you skin them,

1330
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:51,840
Speaker 2: how you process them, and everybody's doing it. The same.

1331
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 2: And what's sort of just circle back one bit when

1332
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 2: you're talking about all the money in the in the

1333
01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:01,560
Speaker 2: fur business being tied up in like the corporations that

1334
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 2: are hiring the trappers, the big money in the buffalo

1335
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 2: hunt story is with these companies that are sort of

1336
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:13,280
Speaker 2: in the import export business. They're they're trafficking in furs

1337
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:15,680
Speaker 2: and leather and other goods, but they're just sort of

1338
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 2: they're in Kansas City, sort of these big hubs on

1339
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:24,040
Speaker 2: the eastern side of the planes, and they are moving

1340
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 2: these skins by the thousands to tanneries in the east.

1341
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 2: They're sort of brokers like middlemen, and they actually are

1342
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 2: sending flyers out onto the planes explaining to guys how

1343
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 2: to skin, how to how to care for your skins,

1344
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 2: how to like like what the process is, what they want.

1345
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,800
Speaker 2: And then essentially all you need is a wagon which

1346
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:50,320
Speaker 2: is still a big investment in a rifle, and you

1347
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 2: go out and kill all the buffalo you can. And

1348
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:56,280
Speaker 2: then a fur buyer or a hide buyer i should say,

1349
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:01,080
Speaker 2: moves either. Either you go to town and sell your

1350
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 2: hides to them of the town and they're sort of

1351
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 2: a field agent for one of these big brokers, or

1352
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:08,840
Speaker 2: they are even traveling around in the field to different

1353
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:11,640
Speaker 2: camps and hauling the hauling the hides away, buying them

1354
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:15,639
Speaker 2: directly in camps. So the hunters themselves and their crews

1355
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 2: or of these autonomous units on the periphery, and then

1356
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 2: there's there's a real hierarchical network of buyers that sort

1357
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:27,000
Speaker 2: of vacuum and funnel all this stuff up to places

1358
01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:27,840
Speaker 2: like Kansas City.

1359
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 3: Uh.

1360
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:32,599
Speaker 1: We were when we worked on this, we were struggling

1361
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:38,040
Speaker 1: to be like, how do you describe the chaos of

1362
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:41,559
Speaker 1: the Civil War, to understand how it's spinning people out,

1363
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:52,160
Speaker 1: Like people know how horrible it is. So in world

1364
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:54,560
Speaker 1: in World War Two, we lost about two hundred and

1365
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:58,679
Speaker 1: fifty thousand Americans. In Vietnam we lost fifty seven thousand Americans.

1366
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:05,680
Speaker 1: And the Civil War we lost this is combatants, and.

1367
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:07,840
Speaker 2: When our population was considerably lower.

1368
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, between the two armies comprised of you know, of Americans,

1369
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:23,760
Speaker 1: seven hundred thousand dead combatants. In many communities, you took

1370
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:27,920
Speaker 1: away an entire In many communities, you the war carried

1371
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 1: away entire generations of men. You in communities, you went

1372
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:39,360
Speaker 1: and you you eliminated people, say seventeen to twenty eight

1373
01:17:39,479 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 1: or so. I mean you like you had it be

1374
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:48,560
Speaker 1: where that town lost that bracket of individuals that that

1375
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 1: war killed off eight percent of the white men aged

1376
01:17:55,400 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 1: between thirteen and forty three. Remember said we lost fifty

1377
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:05,280
Speaker 1: seven thousand and US soldiers in Vietnam, fifty thousand, fifty

1378
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 1: thousand civilians died in the Civil War. Sixty thousand people

1379
01:18:11,080 --> 01:18:16,720
Speaker 1: lost arms and legs in the Civil War. So by

1380
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 1: beginning this story in the Civil War, it's like you

1381
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:27,800
Speaker 1: have literally destroyed huge swaths of the country and people

1382
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 1: needed something to go do. And the reason I bring

1383
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 1: this up and that kind of the reason we focus

1384
01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:34,600
Speaker 1: on this, Well, the main reason we focus on this

1385
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:36,720
Speaker 1: is because it's like it's the truth and it's how

1386
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:40,519
Speaker 1: things happened. But a big part of the a big

1387
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 1: impetus in like explaining the situation is I feel that

1388
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:54,120
Speaker 1: coming and saying all the hide hunters were these sadistic

1389
01:18:55,600 --> 01:19:01,799
Speaker 1: people hell bent on destroying American wildlife, It's not accurate.

1390
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:05,560
Speaker 1: I think that some of them, not think some of

1391
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:08,880
Speaker 1: them were aware of the destruction they were doing. Some

1392
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:13,479
Speaker 1: of them in the moment articulated an acute awareness of

1393
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:16,640
Speaker 1: the destruction they were doing. But there's more to the

1394
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:19,400
Speaker 1: story than just to be that these were like sadistic

1395
01:19:20,280 --> 01:19:27,280
Speaker 1: money grubbing executioners of wildlife, Like these were often people

1396
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:34,120
Speaker 1: that had like not just like little opportunity, no opportunity.

1397
01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:36,880
Speaker 1: And though we weren't using this term at the time,

1398
01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:42,960
Speaker 1: about trauma, being shell shocked whatever, people coming out of

1399
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:49,880
Speaker 1: horrific circumstances with absolutely no promise of employment.

1400
01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:55,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think two like a lot of them

1401
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:58,919
Speaker 2: were refugees. Like when we think about the Great Depression

1402
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:01,320
Speaker 2: and we think about like the you know, the grapes

1403
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 2: of wrath, like people heading out looking for work, like

1404
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 2: hitting the road looking for work, Like that's the situation

1405
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:12,360
Speaker 2: on the ground in eighteen sixty five, and there's something

1406
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 2: like two hundred thousand people in the South lost their homes.

1407
01:20:16,800 --> 01:20:20,679
Speaker 2: So they are you know, not only maybe their farms

1408
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:22,600
Speaker 2: had been burned, like their crops had been burned, like

1409
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:28,640
Speaker 2: they're they're unmoored from what their lives had been like

1410
01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:35,160
Speaker 2: prior to this. And like we mentioned, you know, there's

1411
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:38,080
Speaker 2: a there's a clear opportunity in the Buffalo market. And

1412
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:40,600
Speaker 2: then the other the other side of that is like

1413
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:43,919
Speaker 2: the eighteen seventies were a time of serious economic upheaval,

1414
01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:49,879
Speaker 2: and there's all sorts of financial panics and businesses failing,

1415
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:54,080
Speaker 2: people getting laid off, unemployed, and so you find these

1416
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:57,240
Speaker 2: in these accounts, like somebody's explaining why they became a

1417
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 2: buffalo hunter, and they're like, well, the ground oppers eight

1418
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:04,439
Speaker 2: my crops, and I had to feed my family, so

1419
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:08,640
Speaker 2: so I became a buffalo hunter. There's another story that

1420
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:14,360
Speaker 2: a bunch of butchers from Saint Louis had shown up

1421
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:18,080
Speaker 2: on the planes looking to cut buffalo because they'd all

1422
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:23,000
Speaker 2: lost their jobs in a financial crisis. Right, and so like,

1423
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:27,160
Speaker 2: even after the Civil War, the country's on very rocky

1424
01:21:27,240 --> 01:21:34,080
Speaker 2: footing and and it's very it's overwhelmingly clear from the

1425
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:39,479
Speaker 2: stories that these people left behind that there's there's obviously

1426
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 2: some like hunger for adventure in frontier life and all that,

1427
01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:46,599
Speaker 2: but it's so overwhelmingly clear that these are people who

1428
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:48,759
Speaker 2: are desperate.

1429
01:21:49,439 --> 01:21:54,080
Speaker 1: Another thing that's kicking out people onto the frontier is

1430
01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:58,599
Speaker 1: the progress of the railroads. Viewed in hindsight, the progress

1431
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: of the railroads was was was stunningly fast, but at

1432
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:07,000
Speaker 1: times there'd be pauses. The Northern Pacific Railroad paused in Bismarck,

1433
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:10,040
Speaker 1: North Dakota like just shut down. So you'd bring out

1434
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:12,720
Speaker 1: all these workers and create this job opportunity and now

1435
01:22:12,720 --> 01:22:16,680
Speaker 1: and then money would dry up. Things that happened, and

1436
01:22:16,720 --> 01:22:19,000
Speaker 1: all of a sudden it just like but we're done, yep.

1437
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:22,800
Speaker 1: And so here you have people on the frontier who

1438
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:24,519
Speaker 1: just had the rug.

1439
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:26,400
Speaker 2: Pulled out and they can't get a bus ticket home.

1440
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so that you'd like you were sort of

1441
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:33,760
Speaker 1: like dumping people, like displacing dumped people out on the

1442
01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:36,960
Speaker 1: planes on the American frontier. And a lot of these guys,

1443
01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:38,720
Speaker 1: if you look at how they creep into it, like

1444
01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 1: Randall said, I mean, they're doing like pretty lowly work

1445
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:45,519
Speaker 1: like cutting firewood and then trying to haul firewood and

1446
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:48,120
Speaker 1: sell it to a military fort. No one's getting rich

1447
01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:52,439
Speaker 1: cutting firewood, but that is putting them in position to

1448
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 1: be queued up to participate in the hide hunt.

1449
01:22:55,600 --> 01:23:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. One story that is probably worth mentioning is there's

1450
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:04,639
Speaker 2: a guy named Elijah Cox who's actually a freed slave

1451
01:23:05,520 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 2: and he he served in the Buffalo Soldiers, the cavalry

1452
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:15,960
Speaker 2: all black cavalry unit, and he gets discharged and he's

1453
01:23:16,400 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 2: he's discharged in Texas's I believe he's born in Michigan.

1454
01:23:20,439 --> 01:23:23,479
Speaker 2: So he gets discharged in Texas at some point fighting

1455
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:28,080
Speaker 2: the apaches, and he doesn't have anything else to do,

1456
01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 2: so he becomes a cook for a buffalo hunting outfit,

1457
01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:34,800
Speaker 2: and then after a couple of seasons of serving as

1458
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:38,519
Speaker 2: a cook, he becomes a skinner. And and after a

1459
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 2: couple of seasons of serving as a skinner, one of

1460
01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:43,759
Speaker 2: the hunters in the outfit like breaks his leg or something,

1461
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:48,320
Speaker 2: and so Elijah Cox gets to be a shooter. And

1462
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:52,240
Speaker 2: so it's one of these sort of strange stories of

1463
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:57,280
Speaker 2: like he spent he spent many years involved in the trade,

1464
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:02,280
Speaker 2: worked his way up. Had know. It was not a

1465
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 2: plan that he had, right, It's just circumstances where he

1466
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:09,640
Speaker 2: found himself. And and ultimately I think he killed some

1467
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:10,559
Speaker 2: seven hundred.

1468
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:12,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had an AskMen of how many got And

1469
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:15,080
Speaker 1: I think that when he when he got cut loose

1470
01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:16,840
Speaker 1: from the military, if I remember right, and it's in

1471
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:20,920
Speaker 1: we explained it in here, I think he got cut

1472
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 1: loose from the military from an injury.

1473
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:25,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was he was like medically discharged. Yeah,

1474
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:28,320
Speaker 2: so here he is he's just on the frontier, yeah,

1475
01:24:28,520 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 2: with no network, like like nothing to fall back on.

1476
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 1: Later when he was asked about it. You know, we're

1477
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:37,760
Speaker 1: talking about earlier, we were talking about the way people

1478
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:40,400
Speaker 1: justify it and the way they kind of like maybe

1479
01:24:41,200 --> 01:24:45,120
Speaker 1: misremember their motivations. Later, when he was asked about it,

1480
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:49,280
Speaker 1: his reply was basically like, oh, I know, as I

1481
01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:51,599
Speaker 1: had plenty to eat and I always had money.

1482
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:54,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And that was during the that was So

1483
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:57,799
Speaker 2: what's interesting about that is like during the Great Depression,

1484
01:24:58,720 --> 01:25:01,680
Speaker 2: you know, there's all these oral history projects, and so

1485
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:04,679
Speaker 2: he was interviewed at the tail end of the Great Depression.

1486
01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:07,599
Speaker 2: He's still alive and he's lived through the Great Depression,

1487
01:25:08,040 --> 01:25:09,760
Speaker 2: and he's thinking about the Buffalo days and he's like,

1488
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:10,519
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's.

1489
01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:12,840
Speaker 3: Pretty pretty good, a lot of meat.

1490
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:16,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I what I said earlier contradat he was

1491
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:19,160
Speaker 2: he was born to escaped slaves, So he was born

1492
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:21,960
Speaker 2: in Michigan. His parents were both escape escaped slaves from

1493
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:22,320
Speaker 2: the South.

1494
01:25:22,680 --> 01:25:25,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Buffalo soldiers play into this story a little bit,

1495
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:27,960
Speaker 1: and we get into much greater detail in the project.

1496
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:32,360
Speaker 1: But the the that term, you hear that term often,

1497
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:36,280
Speaker 1: like even the what's his name Bob? The Bob Marley reference.

1498
01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:38,280
Speaker 2: I believe it was the.

1499
01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 1: Commanche or Apache, I'm not I can't remember who likened

1500
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:48,520
Speaker 1: the hair. They likened the hair of these black American

1501
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:51,200
Speaker 1: cavalry members. They likened the hair to.

1502
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 2: The wool of a buffalo, so they would say they

1503
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:57,240
Speaker 2: were a Buffalo soldier. Man. It became like a proud

1504
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:01,639
Speaker 2: identity for a lot of these guys after the Civil War,

1505
01:26:02,479 --> 01:26:05,040
Speaker 2: Like they're they're out west, they're serving in the army

1506
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:09,120
Speaker 2: and and yeah, it's like a really fascinating Eventually they

1507
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:11,520
Speaker 2: come up to Yellowstone, they're in Montana.

1508
01:26:11,800 --> 01:26:15,920
Speaker 1: And they and they're having mix ups like they they're

1509
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:19,799
Speaker 1: oftentimes during this little period that have them done. In Texas,

1510
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:25,799
Speaker 1: Buffalo hide hunters are joining groups of Buffalo soldiers fighting

1511
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:27,200
Speaker 1: against Comanche. Yeah.

1512
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, the situation that maybe we should get into this

1513
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:34,759
Speaker 2: like the phases of the hunt, Yeah, the three phases,

1514
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:39,280
Speaker 2: because it starts in Kansas really along the tracks of

1515
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:43,320
Speaker 2: of the railroads, the Topeka, Santa Fe in particular, Dodge

1516
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:47,439
Speaker 2: City is like a big hub. And then the slaughter

1517
01:26:47,560 --> 01:26:52,640
Speaker 2: sort of goes on until there aren't any buffalo in

1518
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:56,799
Speaker 2: Kansas anymore, and they the high hunters push into Texas,

1519
01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:04,120
Speaker 2: and Texas it becomes a much like at first they're

1520
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:06,920
Speaker 2: so far away from any hub of settlement that they're

1521
01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:10,040
Speaker 2: still hauling the hauling the hides back up to Dodge City,

1522
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:15,320
Speaker 2: but they're bumping into comanches and and there's a real

1523
01:27:15,400 --> 01:27:17,760
Speaker 2: recognition on the part of the comanches and other their

1524
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:22,160
Speaker 2: their allies that the high hunters are killing off their

1525
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 2: economic lifeblood. And so it becomes sort of a very bloody,

1526
01:27:27,520 --> 01:27:31,280
Speaker 2: uh theater for the for the hide hunt, where high

1527
01:27:31,360 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 2: hunters sometimes are serving as sort of like proxy fighters

1528
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:38,559
Speaker 2: for the US Army, and the army is serving as

1529
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:43,599
Speaker 2: sort of proxy fighters for the buffalo hunters. And then

1530
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,040
Speaker 2: at some point they kill all the buffalo in Texas

1531
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:49,880
Speaker 2: and they roll up to Montana, and then Montana it's

1532
01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:52,240
Speaker 2: it's sort of a mop up job, and and in

1533
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:54,719
Speaker 2: a couple of years the herds of the northern plains

1534
01:27:54,760 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 2: are basically blinked out.

1535
01:27:56,560 --> 01:28:00,520
Speaker 1: That that's a It's an interesting point about the Indigenous

1536
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 1: Americans that when we get into the deer skin trade,

1537
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:08,000
Speaker 1: like in our long Hunter piece we focus on we

1538
01:28:08,080 --> 01:28:12,160
Speaker 1: focus really heavily on these Euro American, these white long hunters,

1539
01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:15,559
Speaker 1: but that the deer skin trade was really built by

1540
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:21,000
Speaker 1: Native hunters before these guys like Boone and people started

1541
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:23,760
Speaker 1: going into that area. There had been long a colonial

1542
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 1: trade in deer skins, and in the early days of

1543
01:28:27,400 --> 01:28:29,720
Speaker 1: that trade, those deer skins are being harvested by Native

1544
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:36,400
Speaker 1: Americans and bought in and exported with the beaver skin trade.

1545
01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:39,280
Speaker 1: There were some tribes wanted nothing to do with the

1546
01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:43,720
Speaker 1: beaver skin trade. Other tribes jumped in pretty heavily, like

1547
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:46,639
Speaker 1: the Flatheads were famous for having engaged in the beaver

1548
01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:51,920
Speaker 1: skin tribe trade. The Blackfeet. Some historians like to point

1549
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 1: out how the Blackfeet sat it out, but there's other

1550
01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:58,040
Speaker 1: accounts of the Blackfeet engaging pretty heavily and trading to

1551
01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 1: the north. But they did it. The mountain men would

1552
01:29:03,040 --> 01:29:06,280
Speaker 1: often overwinter with tribes. A lot of mountain men were

1553
01:29:06,360 --> 01:29:08,599
Speaker 1: very tightly as so, like jim Bridge was very tightly

1554
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:13,120
Speaker 1: associated with the Shoshone. Right, So there's this big Native

1555
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:17,040
Speaker 1: American element of people in the trade, of people traveling

1556
01:29:17,120 --> 01:29:21,600
Speaker 1: with the practitioners. You get into the hide hunters and

1557
01:29:22,360 --> 01:29:24,800
Speaker 1: you don't find like.

1558
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:29,200
Speaker 2: There's no cultural exchange, there's no sort of shared interests,

1559
01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 2: there's no allies.

1560
01:29:30,880 --> 01:29:30,920
Speaker 3: No.

1561
01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:33,719
Speaker 1: As we get into it, we had a whole chapter.

1562
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:37,679
Speaker 1: It kind of sets up this thing there was we're

1563
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:39,840
Speaker 1: talking about when we talk about hide hunters. There was

1564
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 1: a thing called what we call the robe hunt or

1565
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:47,599
Speaker 1: the robe trade. There was a commercial Native American trade,

1566
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 1: which was small scale and very artisan, for tanned buffalo

1567
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:59,200
Speaker 1: robes that were used as an as an insulation. Like

1568
01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:00,760
Speaker 1: if you were on a way. You could be in

1569
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:03,160
Speaker 1: Boston riding in a wagon on a cold day and

1570
01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:05,920
Speaker 1: you have a lap blanket that is a winter killed

1571
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:09,800
Speaker 1: buffalo from the northern Plains. You could be in the

1572
01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:12,719
Speaker 1: military and be issued a sleeping bag on a polar

1573
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:17,759
Speaker 1: expedition that could be a winter killed Indian tanned buffalo

1574
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:21,120
Speaker 1: robe from the northern plans. So Indians would shoot buffalo

1575
01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:24,400
Speaker 1: at the right time of year and the right location,

1576
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:29,080
Speaker 1: the women would tan it into a finished good, and

1577
01:30:29,160 --> 01:30:30,920
Speaker 1: that finished good was sold.

1578
01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:36,120
Speaker 2: But that was small and there's bottlenecks on there's natural

1579
01:30:36,240 --> 01:30:38,920
Speaker 2: constraints on the scale of that trade because of the

1580
01:30:39,040 --> 01:30:42,640
Speaker 2: seasonality and especially because of that labor part. Yeah, like

1581
01:30:42,720 --> 01:30:44,479
Speaker 2: a woman could tan ten a year.

1582
01:30:44,640 --> 01:30:49,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, a woman in addition to serving her family, preparing

1583
01:30:49,479 --> 01:30:52,599
Speaker 1: hides to clothe their family, working on hides to make

1584
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 1: a tent, she might be able to put out ten robes,

1585
01:30:58,360 --> 01:30:59,400
Speaker 1: yeah a year.

1586
01:31:00,160 --> 01:31:01,120
Speaker 2: A hide hunter.

1587
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:06,000
Speaker 1: That's just hunting for skin, not tanned goods, but just

1588
01:31:06,080 --> 01:31:09,160
Speaker 1: hunting selling skin. A hide hunter, they would get into

1589
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:14,920
Speaker 1: long periods where they are killing thirty and forty a day.

1590
01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:17,439
Speaker 1: There is examples of killing way more than that. We

1591
01:31:17,560 --> 01:31:21,280
Speaker 1: get into some of these extraordinary kills, but routinely, in

1592
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:27,120
Speaker 1: good conditions, they're waking up every day and killing thirty

1593
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:31,840
Speaker 1: to forty and a woman, a woman in a Native

1594
01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:33,800
Speaker 1: American family on the Great Plans, might be able to

1595
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:36,479
Speaker 1: produce ten robes and annually.

1596
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:39,559
Speaker 2: And like we said, the hide hunters are only drying

1597
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:42,960
Speaker 2: the skins out and then they're being tanned on an

1598
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:46,720
Speaker 2: industrial scale. In the East, there's sort of a bottomless

1599
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:51,679
Speaker 2: appetite for buffalo skins, and there's really a bottomless appetite

1600
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:55,320
Speaker 2: for leather at this time because the leather making industry,

1601
01:31:55,360 --> 01:32:01,800
Speaker 2: the tanning industry, has grown and consolidated and mechanized and

1602
01:32:02,800 --> 01:32:06,320
Speaker 2: made all these improvements and sort of process to the

1603
01:32:06,400 --> 01:32:11,080
Speaker 2: point that like it's basically like a big gaping maw,

1604
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:13,680
Speaker 2: and as many hides as you can shovel into it,

1605
01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:16,080
Speaker 2: it can handle it, and it can find markets for them.

1606
01:32:16,160 --> 01:32:19,840
Speaker 2: So the tanning industry is just absorbing this on a

1607
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:23,000
Speaker 2: scale that like native communities could not have during the

1608
01:32:23,080 --> 01:32:23,720
Speaker 2: robe trade era.

1609
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:28,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're being tanned where you have a native woman

1610
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:32,439
Speaker 1: tanning a buffalo hide with hand tools on the ground,

1611
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:36,320
Speaker 1: using a buffalo's brain, okay, or a concoction of liver

1612
01:32:36,439 --> 01:32:40,080
Speaker 1: and brain to soften it when the hide hunters get going.

1613
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:44,640
Speaker 1: Their skins are being tanned in railroad fed tanneries in

1614
01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 1: buildings that are three hundred yards long by companies that

1615
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:53,080
Speaker 1: own There's one company we talk about that owns twenty

1616
01:32:53,200 --> 01:32:58,679
Speaker 1: five thousand acres of timberland in Pennsylvania because they want

1617
01:32:59,200 --> 01:33:02,880
Speaker 1: tamarack and hemlock. They owned twenty five thousand acres of

1618
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:08,080
Speaker 1: timberland to produce bark to make tannic acid.

1619
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:10,519
Speaker 2: And this is a place like if you've heard the

1620
01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:14,679
Speaker 2: term of company town, where the company owns the store,

1621
01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:17,240
Speaker 2: the company owns the houses. You go there, you work

1622
01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:19,519
Speaker 2: for the factory, you go live in a house owned

1623
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:22,320
Speaker 2: by the factory, and you buy your groceries from the factory.

1624
01:33:23,400 --> 01:33:29,960
Speaker 2: Like this is a company town in rural Pennsylvania that

1625
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:35,760
Speaker 2: has nine story buildings where they're drying buffalo hides and

1626
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:38,640
Speaker 2: they're tanning them these huge vats. They have rows of

1627
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:45,360
Speaker 2: hundreds of vats, and yeah, like it's almost it's sort

1628
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:48,839
Speaker 2: of startling when you see photos and these tanneries continue

1629
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:51,519
Speaker 2: to operate even after the buffalo It was like when

1630
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:55,519
Speaker 2: the buffalo hide trade was going on, they switched over

1631
01:33:55,680 --> 01:34:00,559
Speaker 2: to tanning, a majority of their business was buffalo skins,

1632
01:34:00,920 --> 01:34:04,120
Speaker 2: and then afterwards they simply switched back over to cattle skins.

1633
01:34:04,240 --> 01:34:07,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really one of the more fascinating points,

1634
01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:15,000
Speaker 1: like a discovery that I hadn't working on this. Oftentimes,

1635
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:17,160
Speaker 1: when we go into these projects, like we're going to

1636
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:19,799
Speaker 1: it with some level of pre awareness about the details,

1637
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 1: and we'll be able to like random and I can

1638
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:25,000
Speaker 1: sit and we can kind of map out based on

1639
01:34:25,160 --> 01:34:26,040
Speaker 1: what we already know.

1640
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:27,920
Speaker 2: We can kind of map out.

1641
01:34:29,439 --> 01:34:32,200
Speaker 1: How the story plays out, and we might come up

1642
01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:33,840
Speaker 1: with like we need to find out this or we

1643
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:35,519
Speaker 1: need to learn why this is the way it is.

1644
01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:38,440
Speaker 1: But we come in with like some level of familiarity

1645
01:34:40,160 --> 01:34:42,560
Speaker 1: I and I kind of understand how I came to

1646
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:49,680
Speaker 1: think this. Now I had thought from previous research and

1647
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:51,360
Speaker 1: in fact, oh you know what I was gonna mention

1648
01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:56,320
Speaker 1: this story, like I wrote a book.

1649
01:34:56,600 --> 01:34:59,280
Speaker 2: I think it came out and so it was two

1650
01:34:59,320 --> 01:34:59,880
Speaker 2: thousand and eight.

1651
01:35:00,600 --> 01:35:03,599
Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, I published a book, American

1652
01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:05,599
Speaker 1: Buffalo and Search of a Lost Icon. And it tells

1653
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:10,360
Speaker 1: the story of the species from you know, the place,

1654
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:12,120
Speaker 1: the scene. It tells the story of the species from

1655
01:35:12,120 --> 01:35:15,519
Speaker 1: the ice age up and into the future. It's this

1656
01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:21,040
Speaker 1: whole overview of the animal. There's a part of a

1657
01:35:21,280 --> 01:35:25,640
Speaker 1: chapter where I talk about the hide hunters. So have

1658
01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:28,639
Speaker 1: you ever seen like an exploded diagram where you're looking

1659
01:35:28,720 --> 01:35:31,040
Speaker 1: at like a piece of machinery, and then there's like

1660
01:35:31,080 --> 01:35:33,360
Speaker 1: a little arrow pointing to a part of the machinery,

1661
01:35:33,400 --> 01:35:35,920
Speaker 1: and on the next page is an exploded diagram of

1662
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:39,840
Speaker 1: that little component. This is an exploded diagram of what

1663
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:43,439
Speaker 1: is perhaps the most interesting part about that story, where

1664
01:35:43,640 --> 01:35:46,680
Speaker 1: this is taking that little that couple pages about the

1665
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:49,920
Speaker 1: hide Hunters and American buffalo and blowing it out to

1666
01:35:50,080 --> 01:35:57,360
Speaker 1: something as long as the American buffalo. So there's if

1667
01:35:57,400 --> 01:35:59,560
Speaker 1: you've read that, and I know many of you have

1668
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:04,320
Speaker 1: read that, there's like a little bits of overlapping stuff,

1669
01:36:04,320 --> 01:36:08,240
Speaker 1: But this is like a greatly this focus is on

1670
01:36:08,360 --> 01:36:11,000
Speaker 1: the most important stretch of a couple decades in that

1671
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:15,479
Speaker 1: story and tells a very detailed accounting of something that

1672
01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:19,200
Speaker 1: I briefly gloss over in the book. But in that work,

1673
01:36:19,439 --> 01:36:21,519
Speaker 1: I had come to this thing, and you'll see it repeated,

1674
01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:24,519
Speaker 1: like I know where I got it, this idea that

1675
01:36:24,720 --> 01:36:32,800
Speaker 1: there was a invention, okay, or a revolutionary new process

1676
01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:37,759
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden made it so buffalo leather

1677
01:36:38,680 --> 01:36:41,400
Speaker 1: was like the greatest leather of all time. Okay. You'll

1678
01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:44,400
Speaker 1: see this, that they came up with news tanning methods

1679
01:36:45,040 --> 01:36:47,800
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, lordy, lordie, you could make

1680
01:36:47,960 --> 01:36:52,160
Speaker 1: this great elastic belting out of buffalo hide, and buffalo

1681
01:36:52,240 --> 01:36:58,519
Speaker 1: hide was this super special leather. And that's not entirely wrong,

1682
01:36:58,600 --> 01:36:59,439
Speaker 1: but it's not quite right.

1683
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:03,719
Speaker 2: You'll see that in every single thing, almost every single

1684
01:37:03,760 --> 01:37:07,360
Speaker 2: thing you read on the subjects, even like people writing

1685
01:37:07,400 --> 01:37:11,200
Speaker 2: in the eighteen nineties like William Temple Hornaday, like they

1686
01:37:12,479 --> 01:37:16,280
Speaker 2: they're saying, there's this Eureka moment where all of a sudden,

1687
01:37:16,320 --> 01:37:20,519
Speaker 2: there's value in buffalo leather and it goes It's like

1688
01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:24,680
Speaker 2: a boom and a bust, and that's just sort of

1689
01:37:24,760 --> 01:37:28,760
Speaker 2: accepted as fact. And I'd never read an explanation of

1690
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 2: what that was, and I really wanted to find that

1691
01:37:33,360 --> 01:37:37,800
Speaker 2: for this project. And we talked about this a lot,

1692
01:37:38,000 --> 01:37:39,439
Speaker 2: like we got to find that, We got to have

1693
01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:42,880
Speaker 2: that in there. Our audience is interested in tanning and

1694
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:45,840
Speaker 2: working with skins and all this stuff. Like if there's

1695
01:37:45,920 --> 01:37:49,000
Speaker 2: one thing we need to have, it's that, and it

1696
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:51,400
Speaker 2: just it doesn't really exist.

1697
01:37:54,439 --> 01:37:56,479
Speaker 1: You know, what would be a maybe perhaps a better

1698
01:37:56,520 --> 01:38:00,840
Speaker 1: way of thinking about what actually happened. What's that wood

1699
01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:03,679
Speaker 1: that everybody uses under decking? Now, it's like that composite wood.

1700
01:38:05,479 --> 01:38:07,880
Speaker 1: It's like chipped up. It's like chipped up wood with

1701
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:10,160
Speaker 1: with with resins and adhesives.

1702
01:38:12,280 --> 01:38:15,040
Speaker 2: I don't know, like the fake wood. Okay, never mind

1703
01:38:15,120 --> 01:38:21,040
Speaker 2: that particleboard. Plywood, Yeah, plywood, Sure, everybody knows plywood.

1704
01:38:21,360 --> 01:38:23,719
Speaker 1: All right. Let's say you got a mill and they

1705
01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:28,160
Speaker 1: produce plywood, and because of where they're at, what trees

1706
01:38:28,160 --> 01:38:30,960
Speaker 1: they have available, they're producing tons of plywood, let's say,

1707
01:38:31,040 --> 01:38:34,519
Speaker 1: with white pine, and they develop this strategy and they

1708
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:36,519
Speaker 1: can use white pine and they're making this really nice

1709
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 1: plywood and they're selling plywood like hotcakes. And all of

1710
01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:42,160
Speaker 1: a sudden, someone says, hey, man, you know how we're

1711
01:38:42,240 --> 01:38:50,240
Speaker 1: paying five dollars per unit of wood on white pine?

1712
01:38:51,080 --> 01:38:55,840
Speaker 1: Do you know that we can get ponderosa pine for

1713
01:38:56,040 --> 01:38:59,519
Speaker 1: three bucks? And so they go to their engineers, Hey,

1714
01:38:59,560 --> 01:39:03,680
Speaker 1: what happens when you use Ponderosa pine? And the engineers go, oh,

1715
01:39:04,080 --> 01:39:07,280
Speaker 1: you know, it turns out if you if you add

1716
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:11,280
Speaker 1: a little more resin, it's the same thing. Man, like

1717
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:14,960
Speaker 1: plywood's plywood. We could definitely use that Ponderosa pine. Uh.

1718
01:39:15,240 --> 01:39:17,479
Speaker 1: In fact, if it's three bucks and not five bucks,

1719
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:19,760
Speaker 1: we'll take as much of that Ponderosa pine as we

1720
01:39:19,760 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 1: can get our hands on. Yeah, And they keep making plywood,

1721
01:39:23,360 --> 01:39:26,080
Speaker 1: and people keep buying plywood, and a lot of these

1722
01:39:26,120 --> 01:39:28,040
Speaker 1: people that are buying it, they wouldn't know white pine

1723
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:31,160
Speaker 1: from ponderosa pine if they saw it. It's the product

1724
01:39:31,240 --> 01:39:34,120
Speaker 1: they want, and they're buying it. And then sometime down

1725
01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:36,840
Speaker 1: the road some guy goes, ah, you know what, the

1726
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:38,880
Speaker 1: ponderosa pine they cut it all down.

1727
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:41,439
Speaker 2: It's gone back to white pie.

1728
01:39:41,760 --> 01:39:43,679
Speaker 1: I guess we'll let's just keep running that white pine.

1729
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:46,479
Speaker 1: That's great, is goodball lasting?

1730
01:39:46,960 --> 01:39:47,200
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1731
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:49,479
Speaker 1: I mean it was like that's a better way of

1732
01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:55,400
Speaker 1: thinking about leather consumption because they were being like asiatic

1733
01:39:55,479 --> 01:39:56,200
Speaker 1: water buffalo.

1734
01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:56,840
Speaker 2: Sure.

1735
01:39:57,160 --> 01:40:02,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, the paddle from South America. Sure, the United sure

1736
01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:03,880
Speaker 1: buffalo hides, why not?

1737
01:40:04,160 --> 01:40:07,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there's another there's the United States is importing

1738
01:40:07,560 --> 01:40:10,880
Speaker 2: leather anywhere it can't, or hides from anywhere it can,

1739
01:40:11,040 --> 01:40:15,200
Speaker 2: like sourcing hides, and all of a sudden, with the

1740
01:40:15,360 --> 01:40:20,320
Speaker 2: railroads they can access. However, many million hides are just

1741
01:40:20,400 --> 01:40:22,560
Speaker 2: sort of walking around out there on the planes and

1742
01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:26,640
Speaker 2: it can be sucked into this this pre existing you

1743
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:32,160
Speaker 2: know network. And there's some truth to the idea that

1744
01:40:32,240 --> 01:40:35,439
Speaker 2: there's technological advances, like they're the the industry as a

1745
01:40:35,479 --> 01:40:37,559
Speaker 2: whole is getting better and better at working with big,

1746
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:43,719
Speaker 2: heavy hides. There's some there's there's some changes in method

1747
01:40:43,880 --> 01:40:48,200
Speaker 2: where they're they're using hot water, like they're they're lining

1748
01:40:48,280 --> 01:40:50,120
Speaker 2: them and then doing a hot water bath. And there's

1749
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:53,320
Speaker 2: actually a guy who calls that the buffalo method. But

1750
01:40:53,400 --> 01:40:57,120
Speaker 2: it's not. It wasn't invented for buffalo. It's just sort

1751
01:40:57,120 --> 01:41:01,200
Speaker 2: of like a gradual improvement and processes over time that

1752
01:41:01,400 --> 01:41:06,519
Speaker 2: happened to align with their ability to ship buffalo hides

1753
01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:09,000
Speaker 2: by the hundreds and thousands every year.

1754
01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:13,479
Speaker 1: Yeah. The challenge is if anybody that's skinned it deer

1755
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:18,000
Speaker 1: knows that the belly right the belly's real thin. Yeah,

1756
01:41:18,479 --> 01:41:20,960
Speaker 1: the hides much thicker on either side of the backbone,

1757
01:41:22,160 --> 01:41:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, the inside of the legs is real thin,

1758
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:27,000
Speaker 1: the hides real thick up on the neck. Whatever. The

1759
01:41:27,200 --> 01:41:29,360
Speaker 1: challenge is, how do you produce a uniform? How do

1760
01:41:29,400 --> 01:41:31,520
Speaker 1: you produce the biggest piece of uniform.

1761
01:41:31,200 --> 01:41:31,840
Speaker 2: Product you can?

1762
01:41:32,360 --> 01:41:33,840
Speaker 1: And so they're doing all this stuff like they're like

1763
01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:39,080
Speaker 1: they're they're like, imagine basically that you're sanding it down.

1764
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:41,960
Speaker 2: And I think we just before that, I mean we're talking.

1765
01:41:42,360 --> 01:41:43,880
Speaker 2: I don't think we've mentioned yet belting.

1766
01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:45,680
Speaker 1: No, we have a tub of where all this like

1767
01:41:45,880 --> 01:41:50,560
Speaker 1: why yeah, yeah, the country had always used leather. The

1768
01:41:50,680 --> 01:41:53,760
Speaker 1: number one thing we want a leather for shoes. Yeah, Like,

1769
01:41:53,920 --> 01:41:58,760
Speaker 1: let shoes were leather, tack, horse equipment, harness equipment, all

1770
01:41:58,800 --> 01:42:00,400
Speaker 1: that stuff was made out of leather. But and all

1771
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:02,240
Speaker 1: of a sudden they.

1772
01:42:02,200 --> 01:42:08,160
Speaker 2: Need belting, which is like if you picture if you

1773
01:42:08,240 --> 01:42:12,080
Speaker 2: picture a timing belt on your snow machine or whatever

1774
01:42:12,200 --> 01:42:15,280
Speaker 2: in your car, Like a belt is simply something that,

1775
01:42:15,880 --> 01:42:18,679
Speaker 2: at the most basic level, takes movement from one place

1776
01:42:19,080 --> 01:42:22,760
Speaker 2: and transfers that movement to something else. Right, So one

1777
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:26,559
Speaker 2: thing spins, the belt spins through it and the other

1778
01:42:26,720 --> 01:42:31,560
Speaker 2: side spins that. Yeah, does that make sense? And so

1779
01:42:31,640 --> 01:42:34,040
Speaker 2: if you imagine like a very early factory, it's all

1780
01:42:34,280 --> 01:42:37,200
Speaker 2: it's all gears and cogs either made out of wood

1781
01:42:37,280 --> 01:42:41,400
Speaker 2: or metal, and you're taking power from a stream like

1782
01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:43,719
Speaker 2: a like a You've got a water wheel and a stream,

1783
01:42:43,800 --> 01:42:46,479
Speaker 2: and the wheel's turning and that's turning a big shaft

1784
01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:49,800
Speaker 2: that's turning a gear that's turning another shaft until it

1785
01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:52,519
Speaker 2: gets to wherever you're doing the work with that power,

1786
01:42:53,040 --> 01:42:56,720
Speaker 2: whether it's like a grinding mill or you know, you

1787
01:42:56,760 --> 01:42:59,160
Speaker 2: can power a saw with that. You could power any

1788
01:42:59,240 --> 01:43:02,920
Speaker 2: sorts of other like mechanical tools with that power. But

1789
01:43:03,000 --> 01:43:06,080
Speaker 2: it all has to be transmitted through One thing moves,

1790
01:43:06,120 --> 01:43:08,719
Speaker 2: another thing moves, and other thing moves another thing moves,

1791
01:43:09,160 --> 01:43:12,680
Speaker 2: because they can't just zap it down a wire like

1792
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:16,719
Speaker 2: in the age of electricity. And so the leather belt

1793
01:43:17,479 --> 01:43:23,799
Speaker 2: replaces this older system of shafts and cogs and wheels

1794
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 2: and things like that. And it's revolutionary because you can

1795
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:33,800
Speaker 2: spread power out across a factory floor in all types

1796
01:43:33,840 --> 01:43:35,840
Speaker 2: of different directions, and you can spread it out to

1797
01:43:35,920 --> 01:43:39,879
Speaker 2: different machines or whatever. And this is something that's invented

1798
01:43:40,040 --> 01:43:43,200
Speaker 2: in America the leather belt drive, and then it's sort

1799
01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:45,920
Speaker 2: of perfected during the Civil War as like there's this

1800
01:43:46,080 --> 01:43:50,240
Speaker 2: increase in wartime manufacturing, and so that coincides again with

1801
01:43:51,080 --> 01:43:55,280
Speaker 2: the railroads reach the planes. The buffalo can be shipped east.

1802
01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:59,040
Speaker 2: The tanning factories are ready to absorb the buffalo, and

1803
01:43:59,200 --> 01:44:02,360
Speaker 2: there's this, I mean, we're talking about miles and miles

1804
01:44:02,439 --> 01:44:04,360
Speaker 2: and miles of belting in a factory.

1805
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:07,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a photo from after the buffalo hide era.

1806
01:44:07,479 --> 01:44:10,560
Speaker 1: And again they used that leather when it was available,

1807
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:13,800
Speaker 1: but the wiping out the buffalo didn't wipe out leather.

1808
01:44:14,400 --> 01:44:18,400
Speaker 1: So there's a photo from the Ford plant. Yeah, the

1809
01:44:18,600 --> 01:44:23,280
Speaker 1: lathing operation for like the drive shafts at a Ford plant. Yeah,

1810
01:44:23,960 --> 01:44:26,800
Speaker 1: And the caption on the photo points out that what

1811
01:44:26,920 --> 01:44:30,800
Speaker 1: you're looking at is fifty miles. It's just a picture

1812
01:44:30,840 --> 01:44:33,280
Speaker 1: a bunch of people in a factory, all dressed in

1813
01:44:33,320 --> 01:44:36,960
Speaker 1: black and white. As a joke. A bunch of people

1814
01:44:37,000 --> 01:44:37,880
Speaker 1: at a factory.

1815
01:44:37,640 --> 01:44:38,360
Speaker 3: I'll talking like that.

1816
01:44:40,560 --> 01:44:45,960
Speaker 1: Standing at equipment and over their heads is nothing butt belting. Yeah,

1817
01:44:46,160 --> 01:44:50,120
Speaker 1: Because somewhere is a big steam engine running and they're

1818
01:44:50,200 --> 01:44:53,840
Speaker 1: transmitting power to all these lathes. And it says you're

1819
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:57,080
Speaker 1: looking at fifty miles of leather belting, but some of

1820
01:44:57,160 --> 01:44:59,960
Speaker 1: this leather belting is ten feet wide.

1821
01:45:00,280 --> 01:45:04,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And that's so if you picture an old

1822
01:45:04,439 --> 01:45:07,000
Speaker 2: like if you've ever seen a drawing of an old factory,

1823
01:45:08,120 --> 01:45:11,960
Speaker 2: there's all these people working at machines in neat little rows,

1824
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:19,160
Speaker 2: and overhead there's a bunch of stuff and there's lines

1825
01:45:19,280 --> 01:45:22,320
Speaker 2: coming down to their machines, and it almost looks like

1826
01:45:22,640 --> 01:45:25,880
Speaker 2: like a puppet theater, right, And so essentially, the way

1827
01:45:25,960 --> 01:45:28,400
Speaker 2: that before the age of electricity, the way that this

1828
01:45:28,600 --> 01:45:31,920
Speaker 2: worked is you had a steam engine and that's turning

1829
01:45:31,960 --> 01:45:34,880
Speaker 2: a huge belt, and that's called the prime mover of

1830
01:45:34,920 --> 01:45:37,600
Speaker 2: the factory. Like the steam engine begins moving things, and

1831
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:41,520
Speaker 2: then that belt moves these long shafts that are suspended

1832
01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:48,080
Speaker 2: in parallel rows above the factory floor. Those shafts then

1833
01:45:48,160 --> 01:45:51,439
Speaker 2: are linked together by belts so that when one turns,

1834
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:54,560
Speaker 2: they all turn. So you have the prime mover, and

1835
01:45:54,680 --> 01:45:58,120
Speaker 2: that's moving a big belt that turns one of these shafts,

1836
01:45:58,160 --> 01:46:00,000
Speaker 2: and then that shaft is turning all the other shafts,

1837
01:46:00,640 --> 01:46:04,040
Speaker 2: and then each individual machine is connected to those moving

1838
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:09,280
Speaker 2: shafts on the ceiling by more belts and if you're

1839
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:11,640
Speaker 2: going to do something at a machine, you essentially have

1840
01:46:11,760 --> 01:46:14,200
Speaker 2: like a clutch like in your car, because the whole

1841
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:17,680
Speaker 2: thing is moving continuously, like the things above your moving continuously.

1842
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:19,280
Speaker 2: So if you're all of a sudden, I need to

1843
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:23,400
Speaker 2: use my saw or my hammer or my mill or

1844
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:26,040
Speaker 2: whatever it is, you have like a foot pedal that

1845
01:46:26,160 --> 01:46:28,760
Speaker 2: sort of clutches that timing belt onto your machine. And

1846
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:32,120
Speaker 2: now your machine's running, and to stop it you disengage

1847
01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:34,400
Speaker 2: it from the belt again with that with that clutch, and.

1848
01:46:34,479 --> 01:46:37,360
Speaker 1: That power is always cranking, and they're even running primary

1849
01:46:37,400 --> 01:46:38,880
Speaker 1: belts into other buildings.

1850
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:41,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, to other buildings. And if you think about it,

1851
01:46:41,560 --> 01:46:45,479
Speaker 2: like today, if you have a big manufacturing operation, every

1852
01:46:45,560 --> 01:46:49,640
Speaker 2: place you need an outlet or an extension cord before electricity,

1853
01:46:50,080 --> 01:46:53,080
Speaker 2: that all has to be connected physically by moving things.

1854
01:46:53,360 --> 01:46:57,000
Speaker 2: Like if you want to move whatever, a rock crusher,

1855
01:46:57,960 --> 01:47:01,439
Speaker 2: it has to be connected by moving parts to moving

1856
01:47:01,520 --> 01:47:04,240
Speaker 2: parts to moving parts to the steam engine or whatever

1857
01:47:04,439 --> 01:47:07,840
Speaker 2: is generating your power there. So like when we think

1858
01:47:07,840 --> 01:47:11,560
Speaker 2: about the expansion of the industrial economy, like in the

1859
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:16,879
Speaker 2: eighteen seventies, eighties, nineties, it's all predicated on the ability

1860
01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:20,720
Speaker 2: of belts to connect machines to steam engines, and so

1861
01:47:20,840 --> 01:47:26,800
Speaker 2: that's like it's almost this bottomless demand for leather, and

1862
01:47:26,920 --> 01:47:30,200
Speaker 2: buffalo leather does lend itself well to this because of

1863
01:47:30,280 --> 01:47:33,880
Speaker 2: its inherent properties. But as Steve pointed out, like the

1864
01:47:34,960 --> 01:47:37,479
Speaker 2: Ford is still using leather belts in the nineteen twenties

1865
01:47:37,600 --> 01:47:39,840
Speaker 2: and they're not taking them from buffalo like you could have.

1866
01:47:40,680 --> 01:47:43,840
Speaker 2: You know, it's not like if we hadn't had buffalo leather,

1867
01:47:43,920 --> 01:47:46,679
Speaker 2: we couldn't have built these factories. Buffalo leather just happened

1868
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:49,240
Speaker 2: to sort of fall into the shoot at the right time.

1869
01:47:49,800 --> 01:47:52,880
Speaker 1: What kind of feeds this idea of some specific thing

1870
01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:56,160
Speaker 1: triggering it? Is this? There's this There is a story

1871
01:47:56,760 --> 01:48:01,120
Speaker 1: that comes out of the Kansas Planes and it's very

1872
01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:04,559
Speaker 1: well documented and it's a really interesting narrative of how

1873
01:48:04,640 --> 01:48:11,240
Speaker 1: this played out. Is a tannery has a desire to

1874
01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:16,799
Speaker 1: experiment with some buffalo skins. So they call like a broker,

1875
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:19,240
Speaker 1: a guy that deals in buffalo meet and other things

1876
01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:23,439
Speaker 1: out in Kansas, and they're like, hey, we'd like to

1877
01:48:23,520 --> 01:48:25,720
Speaker 1: get five hundred hides to mess with.

1878
01:48:27,600 --> 01:48:28,280
Speaker 2: He's not a hunter.

1879
01:48:29,080 --> 01:48:32,320
Speaker 1: He goes to one of these railroad meat hunters and

1880
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:37,120
Speaker 1: says to a railroad meat hunter. Hey, can you get

1881
01:48:37,200 --> 01:48:37,960
Speaker 1: me the five hundred?

1882
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:38,760
Speaker 2: Hi.

1883
01:48:38,920 --> 01:48:41,040
Speaker 1: So here's a guy. He takes the order, he needs

1884
01:48:41,080 --> 01:48:43,960
Speaker 1: to find someone to fulfill the order. He contracts a guy,

1885
01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:46,719
Speaker 1: a meat hunter, to fulfill his order for five hundred.

1886
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:48,920
Speaker 1: The meat hunter shoots I think five hundred and fifty one,

1887
01:48:51,200 --> 01:48:53,400
Speaker 1: turns the five hundred into the guy that bought him

1888
01:48:53,439 --> 01:48:55,400
Speaker 1: for him, but he's got this extra fifty to burn

1889
01:48:56,720 --> 01:49:01,160
Speaker 1: sends the extra fifty to a brother and austin New York,

1890
01:49:01,400 --> 01:49:05,280
Speaker 1: sorry New York. But the buyer who then sold, yeah,

1891
01:49:05,960 --> 01:49:08,960
Speaker 1: sends the other fifty to a brother who then's like, well,

1892
01:49:09,000 --> 01:49:12,120
Speaker 1: I'll go try to find someone that wants them. He

1893
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:15,120
Speaker 1: sells them to a tannery. So now you have two

1894
01:49:15,240 --> 01:49:18,360
Speaker 1: tanneries that are sitting on some There's a tannery sitting

1895
01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:20,840
Speaker 1: at about five hundred. There's a tannery sitting at about fifty.

1896
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:26,280
Speaker 1: Both of these tanneries mess around with the hides and

1897
01:49:26,479 --> 01:49:30,559
Speaker 1: both come back and say, we'd like a lot.

1898
01:49:30,720 --> 01:49:32,599
Speaker 2: Gimme Elia gott we'd like a lot.

1899
01:49:33,400 --> 01:49:37,320
Speaker 1: And that starts it. Yeah, that is it is a

1900
01:49:37,760 --> 01:49:41,960
Speaker 1: very distinct like beginning. Yeah, that broadus's the beginning.

1901
01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:44,840
Speaker 2: That brother in New York as soon as he sells

1902
01:49:44,880 --> 01:49:47,840
Speaker 2: them and the company says, we want two thousand more

1903
01:49:47,920 --> 01:49:50,160
Speaker 2: and probably more. After that, he just gets on a

1904
01:49:50,240 --> 01:49:53,280
Speaker 2: train to Kansas and he finds his brother in Dodge City.

1905
01:49:53,320 --> 01:49:56,720
Speaker 2: He said, this is just the business now. Yep, it's

1906
01:49:56,800 --> 01:49:58,720
Speaker 2: game on. Yeah, yeah, it's game on.

1907
01:49:59,560 --> 01:50:01,880
Speaker 1: And it caught. It happened so fast that it caught

1908
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:07,000
Speaker 1: meat hunters by surprise. There's hide hunters that talk about that.

1909
01:50:07,240 --> 01:50:11,720
Speaker 1: There's hide hunters that like, remember the day they they

1910
01:50:11,840 --> 01:50:15,720
Speaker 1: got the news. Yeah, like the day they got the

1911
01:50:15,800 --> 01:50:17,040
Speaker 1: news where people are like, no, no, no, no, no, no,

1912
01:50:17,880 --> 01:50:19,160
Speaker 1: it's the hides dummy.

1913
01:50:19,240 --> 01:50:21,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a guy. There's a guy who's out shooting

1914
01:50:21,320 --> 01:50:23,880
Speaker 2: meat and he's complaining to some other hunters that it's

1915
01:50:23,960 --> 01:50:26,360
Speaker 2: too hot out because all of his meat's spoiling before

1916
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:28,439
Speaker 2: he could sell it. And they look at him and

1917
01:50:28,439 --> 01:50:30,840
Speaker 2: they're like, why are you still hunting for meat? You

1918
01:50:30,920 --> 01:50:34,200
Speaker 2: could just screak me, take the hides off, and bring

1919
01:50:34,320 --> 01:50:36,320
Speaker 2: him to here and it'll buy everyone he can bring him.

1920
01:50:36,840 --> 01:50:40,320
Speaker 2: And he he's like dumbfounded. He because he's still out

1921
01:50:40,360 --> 01:50:43,919
Speaker 2: there trying to cure hams and stuff on the planes

1922
01:50:43,960 --> 01:50:47,360
Speaker 2: and and sort of his the world has moved past that.

1923
01:50:48,680 --> 01:50:51,760
Speaker 1: Uh, another one this kind of this is the last

1924
01:50:52,000 --> 01:50:56,040
Speaker 1: part of this that we'll get into right now. Uh,

1925
01:50:57,640 --> 01:51:03,880
Speaker 1: there is if you study this area this, if you

1926
01:51:03,960 --> 01:51:08,479
Speaker 1: study this era on like a superficial level, you'll always

1927
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:14,400
Speaker 1: find out about all the waste and without wanting to

1928
01:51:18,280 --> 01:51:22,280
Speaker 1: without wanting to do a sort of revisionist history. You know,

1929
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:28,240
Speaker 1: let me better explain what I'm saying. The hide hunters

1930
01:51:28,320 --> 01:51:31,920
Speaker 1: waste the enormous quantities of meat. But there's more to

1931
01:51:32,040 --> 01:51:32,400
Speaker 1: the story.

1932
01:51:33,120 --> 01:51:33,400
Speaker 2: Okay.

1933
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:38,840
Speaker 1: You could picture someone coming to this, depending on their motivations,

1934
01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:41,520
Speaker 1: you could picture someone coming to this and saying.

1935
01:51:41,439 --> 01:51:43,320
Speaker 2: Like, it's all a lie.

1936
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:46,320
Speaker 1: They didn't waste all that meat. They sold a lot

1937
01:51:46,400 --> 01:51:49,040
Speaker 1: of meat. Like, they sold a lot of meat. And

1938
01:51:49,520 --> 01:51:52,400
Speaker 1: as we gotten into this for like, let me tell

1939
01:51:52,400 --> 01:51:56,800
Speaker 1: you two things that are real true. Man, they sold

1940
01:51:56,800 --> 01:52:02,360
Speaker 1: a lot of meat, but man, they wasted a lot,

1941
01:52:03,160 --> 01:52:07,479
Speaker 1: a lot, a lot more. Yeah, you could get into,

1942
01:52:07,600 --> 01:52:09,560
Speaker 1: like we get into all the numbers on this, you

1943
01:52:09,640 --> 01:52:15,760
Speaker 1: can get into what seems like staggering quantities of sold meat.

1944
01:52:17,120 --> 01:52:21,400
Speaker 1: When you get into the tonnages, like the counts on tongues,

1945
01:52:22,160 --> 01:52:29,600
Speaker 1: the barrels of tongues, the trainloads of meat, right, the

1946
01:52:29,920 --> 01:52:32,560
Speaker 1: vast quantities of smoked hams.

1947
01:52:32,360 --> 01:52:34,599
Speaker 2: And they talk about it a lot, and you'd look

1948
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:40,880
Speaker 2: and be like, my god, strain resourceful train cars full

1949
01:52:40,920 --> 01:52:44,200
Speaker 2: of meat, right, And you could spend this whole narrative

1950
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:49,679
Speaker 2: about all this meat, or you can start going like, okay,

1951
01:52:49,840 --> 01:52:50,759
Speaker 2: let's start trying.

1952
01:52:50,600 --> 01:52:53,000
Speaker 1: To do a little math. Let's do a little math.

1953
01:52:54,600 --> 01:52:56,920
Speaker 1: Like here's a guy. And these guys had meticulous records

1954
01:52:56,960 --> 01:52:59,479
Speaker 1: because they're getting receipts when they sell this stuff. Like

1955
01:53:00,080 --> 01:53:02,080
Speaker 1: the receipts are out there be like, you know, a

1956
01:53:02,160 --> 01:53:05,400
Speaker 1: receipt to Bob, but it's like what Bob got for

1957
01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:07,960
Speaker 1: his cow hides for his bull hides for his kIPS

1958
01:53:08,080 --> 01:53:10,599
Speaker 1: or calf hides for his meat, and like how many

1959
01:53:10,680 --> 01:53:12,000
Speaker 1: pounds of meat and what perr?

1960
01:53:12,720 --> 01:53:12,880
Speaker 2: You know.

1961
01:53:13,280 --> 01:53:15,640
Speaker 1: It's like these are like we are very much like

1962
01:53:15,720 --> 01:53:18,559
Speaker 1: we talked with long hunters. A lot of the information

1963
01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:20,800
Speaker 1: about the long hunters is because a historian later went

1964
01:53:20,840 --> 01:53:23,360
Speaker 1: and talked to their grandkid and he's like, no, I

1965
01:53:23,520 --> 01:53:26,040
Speaker 1: swear grandpa said that he got two dollars for his

1966
01:53:26,120 --> 01:53:28,360
Speaker 1: deer hides or whatever, you know, and that becomes like

1967
01:53:29,200 --> 01:53:32,040
Speaker 1: the historic record some dude's recollection about what his dad

1968
01:53:32,080 --> 01:53:34,439
Speaker 1: told him or his grandpa told him. Here, it's like

1969
01:53:35,560 --> 01:53:38,760
Speaker 1: there's too much material. There's tons of material. So you

1970
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:42,000
Speaker 1: can get into these staggering quantities of meat that really does.

1971
01:53:42,400 --> 01:53:44,040
Speaker 1: But then you get into like, let's look at it

1972
01:53:44,120 --> 01:53:48,400
Speaker 1: as percentages, you know, and when you start looking at

1973
01:53:48,520 --> 01:53:50,800
Speaker 1: certain outfits and this is just the outfits that did

1974
01:53:50,920 --> 01:53:53,120
Speaker 1: sell me. Plenty of outfits didn't sell me. When you

1975
01:53:53,160 --> 01:53:56,120
Speaker 1: get into the outfits that did sell meat and you

1976
01:53:56,200 --> 01:54:00,639
Speaker 1: start looking at their numbers, it's like, man, they sold

1977
01:54:00,680 --> 01:54:02,920
Speaker 1: a lot of meat, but like it seems like about

1978
01:54:03,120 --> 01:54:08,080
Speaker 1: ninety nine percent it's wasted. Like be like, okay, so

1979
01:54:08,160 --> 01:54:12,840
Speaker 1: they're selling about six pounds. Yeah, they're selling maybe like

1980
01:54:12,960 --> 01:54:16,680
Speaker 1: if you look at his whole hide hole and then

1981
01:54:16,720 --> 01:54:20,439
Speaker 1: you look at his meat receipts, you're like, okay, he's

1982
01:54:20,479 --> 01:54:23,000
Speaker 1: selling about six pounds per animal.

1983
01:54:25,960 --> 01:54:30,000
Speaker 2: But at the same time, at six pounds an animals,

1984
01:54:30,120 --> 01:54:34,240
Speaker 2: he's selling ten twenty thousand pounds of meat in a year.

1985
01:54:34,440 --> 01:54:37,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's just like it's a real roller coaster

1986
01:54:38,160 --> 01:54:40,200
Speaker 1: because you're going to like, ah, they wasted all the meat.

1987
01:54:40,280 --> 01:54:42,120
Speaker 1: Then you get into this like holy cow, they sold

1988
01:54:42,120 --> 01:54:44,440
Speaker 1: a lot of meat, and you're like, wait a minute,

1989
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:45,920
Speaker 1: they wasted a lot of meat.

1990
01:54:46,760 --> 01:54:48,960
Speaker 2: But again it's like the reason they did this is

1991
01:54:49,040 --> 01:54:53,200
Speaker 2: to make money. And so wherever they could squeeze a

1992
01:54:53,240 --> 01:54:56,240
Speaker 2: little extra profit or a little extra revenue to get

1993
01:54:56,280 --> 01:54:59,560
Speaker 2: the stuff that they needed or tuck little money like

1994
01:54:59,640 --> 01:55:03,720
Speaker 2: away for a slow season, like if they could, if

1995
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:06,320
Speaker 2: they could halt some meat to a to a railroad

1996
01:55:06,360 --> 01:55:08,240
Speaker 2: pretty easily, they did it. You know, if they're hunting

1997
01:55:08,280 --> 01:55:10,720
Speaker 2: in super remote areas, they're not trading and meat, but

1998
01:55:10,880 --> 01:55:13,240
Speaker 2: like if you can get an extra couple bucks off

1999
01:55:13,280 --> 01:55:16,840
Speaker 2: an animal by by curing its hands and hump and stuff,

2000
01:55:16,960 --> 01:55:18,000
Speaker 2: like they did that.

2001
01:55:18,280 --> 01:55:18,560
Speaker 1: And so.

2002
01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:23,920
Speaker 2: There's it's a there's a real complicated explanation of it all.

2003
01:55:24,240 --> 01:55:27,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, here's here's an interesting piece of this, this

2004
01:55:28,120 --> 01:55:32,160
Speaker 1: kind of show, like the the hard scrabble nature, but

2005
01:55:32,320 --> 01:55:39,560
Speaker 1: also the uh a kind of persnickety quality of these

2006
01:55:39,640 --> 01:55:43,760
Speaker 1: individuals when it comes to or like a penny pinching

2007
01:55:43,920 --> 01:55:48,040
Speaker 1: kind of miserly quality to like the economics. There was

2008
01:55:48,120 --> 01:55:52,640
Speaker 1: a product that came from the buffalo that was a

2009
01:55:52,720 --> 01:55:57,120
Speaker 1: stuffing of mattress stuffing material and it was if you

2010
01:55:57,200 --> 01:55:59,680
Speaker 1: picture the forehead on a buffalo is called the mop

2011
01:56:00,320 --> 01:56:04,720
Speaker 1: okay that had value, and it was used to stuff mattresses,

2012
01:56:05,640 --> 01:56:11,240
Speaker 1: stuff of polstery. It was hard to get out, hard

2013
01:56:11,280 --> 01:56:13,360
Speaker 1: to pull out, Like they didn't want the mop's skin,

2014
01:56:13,480 --> 01:56:16,520
Speaker 1: they just wanted the hair and bags. So these hide

2015
01:56:16,600 --> 01:56:18,640
Speaker 1: hunters like you couldn't pull it. But if anyone is

2016
01:56:18,720 --> 01:56:20,720
Speaker 1: dealt with animals a lot, you know that we have

2017
01:56:20,800 --> 01:56:23,760
Speaker 1: a term when the hair starts to slip. Like fire

2018
01:56:23,840 --> 01:56:25,920
Speaker 1: your picture, you're walking along the bank of a river

2019
01:56:26,040 --> 01:56:28,760
Speaker 1: and you see a deer and he's like, you know,

2020
01:56:29,640 --> 01:56:32,200
Speaker 1: dead on the side of the river, drown on the

2021
01:56:32,280 --> 01:56:35,040
Speaker 1: river and washed out, and you go grab a handful

2022
01:56:35,080 --> 01:56:35,840
Speaker 1: of hair on that thing.

2023
01:56:35,920 --> 01:56:37,680
Speaker 2: What happens when you grab a handful of that hair

2024
01:56:37,720 --> 01:56:39,840
Speaker 2: and pull comes right out, comes right.

2025
01:56:40,440 --> 01:56:42,920
Speaker 1: It's called the hair is slipping. So in the high

2026
01:56:43,000 --> 01:56:46,400
Speaker 1: trade even today, the worst thing. Talk to your tax

2027
01:56:46,480 --> 01:56:49,680
Speaker 1: nermost if you're bringing in a deer cape, if you're

2028
01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:52,720
Speaker 1: trying to sell a skunk hide, it doesn't matter. Hair

2029
01:56:52,880 --> 01:56:57,680
Speaker 1: slippage means too late, it's rotten. Like if you go

2030
01:56:57,760 --> 01:56:59,600
Speaker 1: to your tax nermous with a bear rug or a

2031
01:56:59,680 --> 01:57:01,680
Speaker 1: deer cape and he grabs a tough to that hair

2032
01:57:01,720 --> 01:57:03,960
Speaker 1: and pulls, and half the hair in his hand comes free,

2033
01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:08,000
Speaker 1: just you messed up. Yeah, it's slipping. It's no good.

2034
01:57:09,280 --> 01:57:11,640
Speaker 1: They would at times when there's nothing else to do,

2035
01:57:12,000 --> 01:57:14,440
Speaker 1: they would wait till all these like when they skin

2036
01:57:14,520 --> 01:57:16,200
Speaker 1: the carcass, as we explained how they skin them. When

2037
01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:18,800
Speaker 1: they skin the carcass, they'd stop behind the ears. So

2038
01:57:19,120 --> 01:57:22,040
Speaker 1: a buffalo hide went to the market is missing, it's

2039
01:57:22,080 --> 01:57:25,040
Speaker 1: missing its face, it's cut off behind the ears. They

2040
01:57:25,080 --> 01:57:28,720
Speaker 1: would wait till the carcasses rotten enough that the hair

2041
01:57:28,760 --> 01:57:31,040
Speaker 1: would start to slip, and then they would go back

2042
01:57:31,160 --> 01:57:36,920
Speaker 1: out into the field and pull mops and stuff it

2043
01:57:37,040 --> 01:57:37,760
Speaker 1: into sacks.

2044
01:57:38,240 --> 01:57:40,560
Speaker 2: When they're good and rotten, meaning.

2045
01:57:41,720 --> 01:57:45,560
Speaker 1: Where there's money to be made. They were there to

2046
01:57:45,600 --> 01:57:52,040
Speaker 1: make the money. It's just at times it's like it's

2047
01:57:52,120 --> 01:57:54,840
Speaker 1: just it wasn't efficient, but you could. It's it's really

2048
01:57:54,920 --> 01:57:57,520
Speaker 1: hard to look at their lives and point out places

2049
01:57:57,560 --> 01:58:02,280
Speaker 1: where you're lazy. Yeah, Like this wasn't like a laziness thing.

2050
01:58:02,720 --> 01:58:07,760
Speaker 1: It was just business man. It was business. It was business.

2051
01:58:08,280 --> 01:58:15,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. And on top of that, not to not to

2052
01:58:15,240 --> 01:58:18,680
Speaker 2: get into more details, but there's all kinds of wild

2053
01:58:18,800 --> 01:58:22,440
Speaker 2: stories in this, just like the weird you know, people

2054
01:58:22,520 --> 01:58:26,600
Speaker 2: getting charged by buffalo, people getting pounded in hailstorms, people

2055
01:58:26,680 --> 01:58:31,720
Speaker 2: getting killed, people finding bodies, people doing really weird stuff,

2056
01:58:31,840 --> 01:58:34,920
Speaker 2: people eating weird stuff, people playing pranks on each other,

2057
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:38,040
Speaker 2: dying weird ways, dying in weird ways. We got a guy.

2058
01:58:38,120 --> 01:58:42,320
Speaker 1: We have a big section about all the people killed

2059
01:58:42,320 --> 01:58:48,360
Speaker 1: by buffaloes that they wounded. We're working on an animation project. Anyways,

2060
01:58:48,400 --> 01:58:54,240
Speaker 1: there's a guy who shoots a buffalo, gets up through

2061
01:58:54,240 --> 01:58:57,160
Speaker 1: it's still alive, pulls out his pistol to finish it off.

2062
01:58:58,120 --> 01:59:00,560
Speaker 1: As he pulls out his pistol, the buffalo jumps up

2063
01:59:01,080 --> 01:59:04,320
Speaker 1: and starts coming for him. He really quickly tries to

2064
01:59:04,400 --> 01:59:06,520
Speaker 1: mount his horse to get away, and in mounting us

2065
01:59:06,560 --> 01:59:08,520
Speaker 1: because he's got his pistol out now and it's cocked.

2066
01:59:09,240 --> 01:59:12,160
Speaker 1: In mounting his horse, he has a negligent discharge and

2067
01:59:12,320 --> 01:59:17,919
Speaker 1: shoots his own horse. So now the horse takes off wounded.

2068
01:59:18,840 --> 01:59:21,840
Speaker 1: The buffalo is wounded, chasing the horse, and then both

2069
01:59:21,880 --> 01:59:23,480
Speaker 1: the horse and the buffalo.

2070
01:59:23,280 --> 01:59:26,440
Speaker 2: Die and he walks walks away.

2071
01:59:28,360 --> 01:59:31,280
Speaker 1: Other guys, other hide hunters, they go miss him. This

2072
01:59:31,440 --> 01:59:33,320
Speaker 1: is the kind of we give a handful of these

2073
01:59:34,320 --> 01:59:39,600
Speaker 1: stories that play out very similarly. Bob is off hunting,

2074
01:59:41,960 --> 01:59:45,000
Speaker 1: Bob don't come home at night. In the morning, you

2075
01:59:45,120 --> 01:59:47,960
Speaker 1: go looking for Bob and lo and behold, there's a

2076
01:59:48,040 --> 01:59:51,120
Speaker 1: dead buffalo laying there, and there's a dead Bob laying

2077
01:59:51,160 --> 01:59:57,000
Speaker 1: next to it. Yeah, and Bob is in bad shape.

2078
01:59:57,080 --> 01:59:59,680
Speaker 2: It turns out that when you shoot buffalo by the dozens,

2079
02:00:00,320 --> 02:00:03,120
Speaker 2: you make some bad shots and you end up encountering

2080
02:00:03,160 --> 02:00:04,000
Speaker 2: some angry buffalo.

2081
02:00:04,200 --> 02:00:06,760
Speaker 1: Yep, and Bob is badly bruised.

2082
02:00:06,920 --> 02:00:14,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyhow, me Inter's American.

2083
02:00:14,400 --> 02:00:20,840
Speaker 1: History, The Hide Hunters eighteen sixty five to eighteen eighty three.

2084
02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:23,760
Speaker 1: We never explained eighteen eighty three. So you know, when

2085
02:00:24,000 --> 02:00:25,560
Speaker 1: you hear an interview with an author and they don't

2086
02:00:25,560 --> 02:00:28,720
Speaker 1: want to tell the end, Well, you're in the end.

2087
02:00:28,760 --> 02:00:31,680
Speaker 1: You're like, so did they catch them? They're like, well,

2088
02:00:31,720 --> 02:00:34,880
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna tell. Does he die in the end?

2089
02:00:35,440 --> 02:00:36,240
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna tell.

2090
02:00:37,400 --> 02:00:41,160
Speaker 2: Well, oh you can do this. Do the buffalo die

2091
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:41,640
Speaker 2: in the end?

2092
02:00:42,360 --> 02:00:42,560
Speaker 1: Yes?

2093
02:00:42,680 --> 02:00:47,720
Speaker 2: But what year not telling? Not telling?

2094
02:00:49,320 --> 02:00:53,080
Speaker 1: I let out to my I'm a huge fury Road

2095
02:00:53,120 --> 02:00:58,120
Speaker 1: and Furiosa fan. I let out to my daughter early

2096
02:00:58,240 --> 02:01:00,760
Speaker 1: on in furios that her boyfrid friend doesn't make it

2097
02:01:00,840 --> 02:01:02,800
Speaker 1: through to the end. She was very upset with me

2098
02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:05,640
Speaker 1: for letting that leak. So I hope you're not watching

2099
02:01:05,680 --> 02:01:11,000
Speaker 1: that one can leave that out till thanks for joining me.

2100
02:01:11,160 --> 02:01:14,920
Speaker 1: There's American history, of course, go back the Long Hunters,

2101
02:01:15,920 --> 02:01:19,080
Speaker 1: then check out The Mountain Men, and then dig into

2102
02:01:19,120 --> 02:01:22,360
Speaker 1: the new one available now, The Hide Hunters eighteen sixty

2103
02:01:22,440 --> 02:01:26,000
Speaker 1: five to eighteen eighty three. We were going to talk

2104
02:01:26,040 --> 02:01:28,240
Speaker 1: about what's next, or we're going to talk about how

2105
02:01:28,280 --> 02:01:32,440
Speaker 1: we're trying to decide what's next, but wait and see.

2106
02:01:32,560 --> 02:01:34,200
Speaker 1: When it happens, we will tell you about it. Thank

2107
02:01:34,200 --> 02:01:35,520
Speaker 1: you very much for listening.